Final Fantasy Hacktics

Quote from: "Dokurider"

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You can do what I did in my patch.  Namely, I removed innate martial arts and forced monk to learn it manually (by switching monk's place with summoners).  To do this, you have to reorder the unit classes in FFTPatcher (every instance of Mk and Su), ShiShi, WORLD.BIN, and WORLDFACE.BIN.  It's a hassle, but it's not really that bad, nor does monk lack endgame potential in that case.

...!

But that would mean...

no more Martial Arts Summoners...

I would give Summoners innate Martial Arts for the lulz if that change were made, if only so people can't bitch about not having them.  Besides, Summoners need to be big, strong men with hair on their chest (or incredibly busty and mildly muscular women) to control those savage beasts.  Seriously.


More Ninja Sword stuff -

Hidden Knife - Always: Transparent (posted above, but putting here for the sake of completeness.

Ninja Knife - Its description plays it off to be similar to a modified Dagger (read: probably a Kunai), and the sprite agrees, so possibly give it Dagger-like properties (5% evasion, some status that Daggers don't cover like Don't Move or something, etc).  You could leave it vanilla as well, but that seems boring, especially since it's the only Ninja Sword with a different sprite entirely instead of just a recolor.  That, and there's only 5 non-rare Ninja Swords, so I think most of them having some kind of special effect is fine - and it's not like all Daggers don't do something cool anyway.

Short Edge - Um.  First thing that comes to mind is Speed +1 or something with 0% Evasion emphasize it being small and lightweight, but that'd obviously not work.  Part of me wants to say leave it vanilla but I'm suggesting something akin to that for the very next blade.  I'll need to think on this one.

Ninja Edge - It's described as being larger than most swords (I'd read it as being larger than the average sword), so leave it vanilla but give it more evasion.  15%, maybe?  That'd add up to roughly having a mid-level Shield equipped alongside a weapon should you go double Ninja Edge, and allow it to make a good compliment to most of the other Ninja weapons in a Two Swords situation.

Then Spell Edge, PA +1 Sasuke Knife, and 1.3 Iga/Koga Knives fill it out and Ninja Swords suddenly become interesting and worth doing more mixing/matching with.



Squires:  Where exactly were we with them again?   I remember us having a rather nice discussion about them ages ago but I forget exactly what was settled on last and had an idea about them.



Shields / Mantles / Accessories / random things - Have you finalized much of this stuff yet?  I had some ideas for a lot of things (including expanding my previous concept about mantles) and could post it all so you can see what you like and save yourself some trouble brainstorming items if you like.  I figure ASM'D already has enough expansive changes to consider implementing so helping with the equips that probably need the most modifying should make things easier on you, no?  =p  EDIT:  I wrote up something and saved it in a notepad.  I'll post it if you want, and if you're all set for ideas/etc for Shields/Mantles/etc I'll keep it for if I do a patch myself later.  Whatever you prefer.  It's fairly long, so I don't wanna drop another TL;DR unless you want to see it though.



Turtle Shell:  You should sprite swap in a Koopa Troopa shell.  It would be lol and ftw.

Posting because I've had what I think are some rather worthwhile brainstorms due to having no internet and messing with FFTPatcher all day.  One of these includes a notepad file with almost every item in the game re-rebalanced for ASM'd / similarly designed patches, partially out of boredom and partially because if I make a patch it'll also include innate Weapon Guard and many similar concepts to ASM'd anyway so it won't go to waste if Philsov decides not to use anything from it.  It's... really long, so it'll be attached instead of posted.



First point, Specials - namely Agrias, Orlandu, Meliadoul.  In Vanilla, Meliadoul can equip Clothes and Spears and Orlandu can equip any Sword-like weapon in the game, yet to use their abilities you need a Sword or Knight Sword.  So, I'm thinking we should change the "requires Sword / Knight Sword" line become "requires Sword / Knight Sword / Ninja Sword / Katana / Spear", allow Orlandu to again take up Ninja Swords and Katanas, and give Agrias the ability to equip Hats.  This would do a few beneficial things:

1.  Specials in Samurai main job would be practical and potentially cool.  Equip Knife no longer exists, so this relationship couldn't go both ways.  The same is true with Lancers, and while Equip Spear exists to make the relationship technically go both ways, Spears are weaker than Swords in general so it shouldn't be an issue.  Ninja specials wouldn't be an issue because you're raping Ninja PA to some extent.

2.  Specials in their unique main job would feel even more distinct - Meliadoul with Clothes and Spears to differentiate her loadouts, Agrias with Hats, and Orlandu with a menagerie of Swords to go with his menagerie of Swordskills.  Combined with potentially expanded or reimagined skillsets (Meliadoul's getting at least one new skill, Agrias could get her Swordskills elementalified, etc), each character becomes more unique and customizable, which is something I find is important regardless of whether the character is special or generic.  

This would run us the issue of "how the fuck do I use a SWORDskill with a SPEAR?", but you know what?  Fuck the haters.  The real question is whether tacking Spears onto the ASM that allows Swords / Knight Swords / Ninja Swords / Katanas is possible without hitting everything in between too.  If not, I say we disable Meliadoul's ability to equip Spears and think of something else to compliment her ability to equip Clothes innate instead.  Doing this would also have odd ramifications for Beowulf, I know, he's often better off staying as a Temple Knight regardless.



Second, said attachment.  There's a table of contents and such, so even though it includes most equipable items in the game finding what you're looking for should be easy.   Philsov, you (or anyone else who looks) can feel free to lift whatever they want from these notes, since that's why I'm posting them.  Just remember they're tailored for a more ASM'd-like environment where units move less spaces per turn and net Speeds are far lower.  You'd probably be interested in checking out Shields / Mantles, Philsov, since the ones in here seem like they'd be perfect for ASM'd, though feel free to lift the entire thing if you want.  It probably took me 10 hours totalling all the different sessions I did this in to compile everything, so I'd not mind at all if you grab everything, make the few likely needed minor adjustments, and put that time on your end into fixing up other aspects of ASM'd so we can crank this bitch out faster.  Then again, I don't know how far you are in finalized equipments, so if you're all set that's just as well too since we know at least that part of the creative process is finished sans some polishing.

Thank you for posting that document. I find those purposes interesting, though admittedly all I was interested in were your ideas for shields and mantles since I'm plan to do something different with everything else.

For some reason, Short Edge is missing in the document under Ninja Knives.

Also, to answer your question about the Hair Adornment slots, turning them into Helmets or Hats works fine. The only "problem" that would otherwise occur would be that you made them into something that one shouldn't be able to put one's head, they would still be able to worn one's head.

Quote from: "The Damned"Thank you for posting that document. I find those purposes interesting, though admittedly all I was interested in were your ideas for shields and mantles since I'm plan to do something different with everything else.

Glad it proved interesting for you, at least.  I'm thinking Bracer should either just stay with +3 PA or go +2 PA with no other benefit (so it doesn't entirely retcon the Knight's Mantle), but +3 PA seems too good (always has for me) and I'm unsure if +2 PA straight would be worth equipping over other accessories.

Were there any items that seemed grossly imba, that you remember?  Most of it seemed fine but I'm thinking the Axe/Flail WP might not be done correctly and that Poles could be done a bit better.

Quote from: "The Damned"For some reason, Short Edge is missing in the document under Ninja Knives.

It's missing because I have no idea what to do with Short Edge, admittedly.  At all.

I don't want to keep it effectless because it immediately becomes the worst Ninja Sword.  Speed +1 is out, Guard Plus doesn't work because the blade is shorter (but not Daggerlike), not longer, and making it Daggerlike doesn't work because it's still long enough to be a "Sword".  I was thinking maybe Cancel: Slow, but that seems like an odd property to put on a Weapon.

Quote from: "The Damned"Also, to answer your question about the Hair Adornment slots, turning them into Helmets or Hats works fine. The only "problem" that would otherwise occur would be that you made them into something that one shouldn't be able to put one's head, they would still be able to worn one's head.

Ah, I see.

So -Small Mantle, +Ribbon, +3! new Epic Hats!  Sounds win to me.  

(Damn computer. I could have sworn I hit enter, but no...I had to leave the page only see this didn't get posted. No matter. I'll just make it more concise now that I know what I want to say.)

If you're asking me if something is egregious, then the only remotely egregious thing I see that you didn't point out yourself was that Octagon Rod is still the same, which means that it utterly blows. I mean, as much as I dislike Gokuu Rod as well, at least that one can be somewhat useful if you hit other mages (mid-charge). Octagon Rod just seems like a gigantic "FU" to Oracles from the game designers in vanilla and 1.3. (if only because it didn't get changed there). How are you going to make the best store-bought weapon for a class something that actively works against that class and its strengths? It'd be liking making Ultimus Bow have a Range of 1.

Besides that, I'm still pretty skeptical about strong weapons like Spell Edge and Ancient Sword inflicting Don't Act or certain other strong weapons, like Dragon Rod, summoning things for free, but you copied those directly from 1.3, so I can't fault you.

Everything else that seems "suspicious", including Black Hood, is something that you recognized as potentially a problem, so those could at least be ironed out, maybe. It's really difficult to examine items in a vacuum, even more difficult than it is to examine abilities or class stats/growth in a vacuum.

I'm not a weapons expert by any means, but as far as I know, it's easier to parry things with shorter blades than longer ones. So if you meant giving Short Edge more evasion when you mentioned "Guard Plus", then I can't fault you. I may be wrong, though.

I'm most likely getting rid of Ninja Knives entirely, so I can't really say I've been considering anything with them. Sorry.

For Morning Star and Scorpion Tail, why don't you just switch them around?

Quote from: "The Damned"If you're asking me if something is egregious, then the only remotely egregious thing I see that you didn't point out yourself was that Octagon Rod is still the same, which means that it utterly blows. I mean, as much as I dislike Gokuu Rod as well, at least that one can be somewhat useful if you hit other mages (mid-charge). Octagon Rod just seems like a gigantic "FU" to Oracles from the game designers in vanilla and 1.3. (if only because it didn't get changed there). How are you going to make the best store-bought weapon for a class something that actively works against that class and its strengths? It'd be liking making Ultimus Bow have a Range of 1.

The main reason I left it that way is due to male Oracles - 1.3 multiplier male Oracles still have nice PA (enhanced multipliers) as long as their first 20 levels are in some vaguely physical class for growths, and with the growth gap being shrunk down in ASM'd these Warrior-Oracles are even more likely to be usable.  Octagon Rod keeping the PA formula means these guys have a decent Pole to work with before Poaching occurs, though admittedly I think I should actually switch some other Poles to the PA formula (which would actually solve my problem of what to do with the "useless" Pole weapons. Gokuu Rod might get a WP buff to compensate for this though - getting up to 11 or so.  This way Oracle works as a class both males and females can have some success being in, and Musk Rod + Battle Bamboo aren't immediately curved out the way the current Pole schema has them going.  That would work out awesomely, I think - dual road Poles, with store bought ones favoring PA as the strongest Pole and poaching favoring MA.  I'll need to update this part of the document later, probably noting an edit in the description that at least hints whether each Pole works off PA or MA.

EDIT: on second thought, PA oriented Poles = Spears.  I'd rather just let Oracles equip Spears naturally.  This'd just mean Octagon Rod only triggers 25% of the time, which doesn't honestly seem like a big deal.  Then again, I'm more than sure it was put on a PA formula so you could strike your own guys with it and not get raped... but that's an incredibly stupid thing to do.  Therefore, damn thing needs an entirely new effect.  Suggestions?  Also, in this case, should Ivory Rod go to MA*WP again and gain something to differentiate it a bit from Whale Whisker?

Quote from: "The Damned"Besides that, I'm still pretty skeptical about strong weapons like Spell Edge and Ancient Sword inflicting Don't Act or certain other strong weapons, like Dragon Rod, summoning things for free, but you copied those directly from 1.3, so I can't fault you.

Spell Edge is still the same as it was in vanilla, honestly, except the evade keeps changing to match the patch in question.  The main things that make me think these weapons are okay are - 1. usually useless proc vs bosses, and 2. if their WP is too low, they don't see use anyway.  Ninjas are eating an epic nerf in ASM'd, so Spell Edge's 13 WP isn't as big a deal as it usually is... and in my schema, Ancient Sword is competing against more boostable Element Swords and such that can outright kill things.  PA stacking also causes its sizable 11 WP to mean less quickly... the more PA you have, the more that extra 3 WP of Rune Blade or even 0-2 WP boosted damage of an Element Sword means.

Dragon Rod, you're going in with what's likely to be using PA stacked Warrior-Oracles at close range against stuff sporting shields and more PA to balance out their lower WP scores... all of which lead to you being on the losing side of the evasion war and your otherwise ridiculous proc being weakened because the equipment loadout doesn't favor it.  There's Equip Mageset, which would allow a more PA oriented job like Knight to snag on a Dragon Rod, but that's probably doing less damage than an Attack UP Knight Sword or Two Hands Sword, etc.  Considering how rare Dragon Rods are (I imagine the way Philsov has poaching set up, they'll either be locked into Chapter 4 or Trophy/Steal only), I don't see the problem when it's easily matched by other classes.

Quote from: "The Damned"Everything else that seems "suspicious", including Black Hood, is something that you recognized as potentially a problem, so those could at least be ironed out, maybe. It's really difficult to examine items in a vacuum, even more difficult than it is to examine abilities or class stats/growth in a vacuum.

Alright, as long as I didn't entirely overlook something that's a problem, I'm happy.  Stuff like Black Hood can be handled easily with a bit of playtesting, I think.

Quote from: "The Damned"I'm not a weapons expert by any means, but as far as I know, it's easier to parry things with shorter blades than longer ones. So if you meant giving Short Edge more evasion when you mentioned "Guard Plus", then I can't fault you. I may be wrong, though.

I was going by the general consensus of how W-EV works in FFT... I'm pretty sure the game is implying a character is "defending" with their weapon at ready to deflect at the end of their turn, which is why large weapons like Axes, Knight Swords, etc. have the highest W-EV.  (Then again, vanilla Axes had 0 W-EV, but Knight Swords had 35% and Defender at 60%, so...)  

But yeah, I've still got nothing for that damned thing besides completely redesigning it, and even there I've no ideas really.

Quote from: "The Damned"I'm most likely getting rid of Ninja Knives entirely, so I can't really say I've been considering anything with them. Sorry.

Heh.  It's fine.

Quote from: "Dokurider"For Morning Star and Scorpion Tail, why don't you just switch them around?

...Because that solution is too easy and it's totally not how I handled balancing half of the Swords.  Geez.

Lol.

That's probably the best idea, honestly.

Posting because I saw this in another thread and think it needs to be brought to your attention:

Quote from: "R999"Aside from the special skills not behaving properly, I can also add that changing Geomany skills is also impossible. Setting Random Attack = true will not do anything, it will always hit on all panels in effect. Changing the formula also does nothing; they are always hardcoded with the same formula.

Also, for anyone who checked that attachment I posted previously, I'm in the middle of updating it some to fix a couple imbalances, a deal of typos, edit some things, clean up Rods / Bows / etc.  It should be ready soon for anyone who'd like to see it.

Hmm...that's annoying. I'm guessing you can change the animations, the effects, the status and the elements, though, right? We already know you can change the variable.

Also, with regards to items, I had been meaning to ask you, why did you get rid of the halving effect of the Flame and Ice shields? Also, why did you give Flame Shield have two weaknesses?

Quote from: "The Damned"Hmm...that's annoying. I'm guessing you can change the animations, the effects, the status and the elements, though, right? We already know you can change the variable.

Ask R999.  I'm just reporting them as I see them.

Quote from: "The Damned"Also, with regards to items, I had been meaning to ask you, why did you get rid of the halving effect of the Flame and Ice shields? Also, why did you give Flame Shield have two weaknesses?

Ice halving Fire didn't make any sense to me and vice versa, and I felt a Lightning weakness on Ice Shield with nothing comparable on Flame Shield still made the latter the general winner.  Hence Ice/Water, since once Ice melts its still Water, that way both have a semi-common weakness.  I'd be more than willing to give them a Half: X if it's reasonable for that Element to half it, though.  Maybe have Ice Half: Water and Fire Half: Dark?  Ice is Water and Fire makes the Darkness go away, so .  That way, both would half a rare element, absorb a common element, and be weak to their inverse (+Water for Flame Shield).

Seems sensible to me, anyway.



Also, I fixed Octagon Rod and Ivory Rod.  I made Octagon Rod MA*WP that does damage in all elements (there are 8 elements, so this way the effect is still an octagon!), and Ivory Rod MA*WP with one less WP (so 14 WP, 15% W-EV, 25% Local Quake).  How does that sound?

I'll post a new attachment with updated text now as well.  I edited Spears a bit (Partisan), redid Poles some, added a "Thought process:" section to Ninja Swords, cleaned up the section about Boots, fixed some typos (such as clarifying that Holy Lance still dealt Holy Elemental damage), minorly edited Flail WP to switch Morning Star with Scorpion Tail, and made a slight edit to Shields so that Diamond Shield now has 25% Magic Evasion instead of Platina Shield (else Platina Shield would have been best common Shield, no contest), and gave Platina Shield Half: Holy until I think of something better.  Chirijiraden now procs Flare, which should be roughly the same as it procing itself due to Faith formula, but has a far better flavor to it.  There might be a few other edits, but they should all be noted.  There are also some brainstorm notes somewhere involving the Initial: Haste status and something else now, IIRC.

QuoteThat was kind of the idea in my original proposition: 3 attacks that can be boosted (but also blocked/negated/absorbed), and 2 attacks that can be manipulated by manipulating the held weapon but default to nothing.

Swordskills are already set to a coeffecient of 0.  I can't make them any weaker without reducing sword/knight sword WP.  I don't want them elementally boosted.  I understand where you're coming from with the multiple setups angle, but I think we're better off with the previous way in this case.

~

@Worker 8 / Gaf suggestions - excellent!  I'll be implementing either them or a variant.  

QuoteI think it's safe to say that Meliadoul won't need Crush Punch anymore when we're done...

Well she doesn't anyways -- there's the ASM hack that'll make mighty sword work versus zodiacs/monsters/etc.  Did I not include that on the front page? >_>

QuoteEDIT: The "Death Sentence ignores Cancel: Dead" ASM should be applied so the player can't Secret Fist cheese the AI, Imo.

I was actually planning on making all the gear that cancel:Dead also blocked cancel: Death Sentence to get the same thing accomplished, but that might work as well.

QuoteDid you decide/have you decided on what graphics you're using for three new items you made?

Shade of Grey = AA / 6
Turtle Shell = AC / F
Dual Kiss = AB/3

Kept the old item graphics because they'd still be unique, but I did swap the colors to be a bit more fitting and/or different.

QuoteQuestion on Ninja's "massive" PA nerf: Are you changing Ninja Swords to PA*WP?

If this PA nerf is as massive as you're making it sound, you'll probably need to since elsewise they're still losing a good 3ish SP off their damage formula in addition to the drastic PA cut.

What I mean is that your post says average speed will be 9 at Level 99. blahblablah

No, ninja swords are keeping the same formula.  I had already boosted the WP to compensate the lowered SP, and the PA nerf will work with the perma-present two-swords.  In terms of relative output I want an attack up ninja to be swinging for about the same as any other physical class with two swords.  Btw a ninja at 99 will have 10 speed.  

QuoteHidden Knife - Always: Transparent?  It's the weakest Ninja Knife, so a Ninja trying to keep with it as one of their weapons and maintain 100% accuracy without Concentrate is losing a lot on the WP side of things. It would also help Thief by allowing them to equip a weapon that's essentially innate: Concentrate for stealing but would punish them as the game progresses when actually trying to attack due to low WP.

I like.

QuoteWell, if Philsov wants to do some tedious work, he has his solution for Monk and possibly Ninja.

I want to have all the supports available to all the classes -- if I do a class swap that class will have innate X.  So if I do this with say... summoner... they'll have innate martial arts which... I find incredibly odd.  To this end ninja will be keeping innate two swords, but I might do that thing with the monk waaaaay down the road.  

QuoteBig list of item changes

Will be looked at later :p.

~

Meanwhile, I have been messing with ability consolidation and placement and such.  Ramza, Meliadoul, Musty, Gaffy, and Worker 8 gained new skills.  Worker 8's abilities reformed slightly to allow for AoE to boot.  But no self destruct, sorry   )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.[/spoiler]

~

And... that's 12 atm for archer skillset + new generic abilities.  woot woot.  Comments, as always, welcome.  Otherwise, time to brainstorm on new boss shit and look at that item list.

Edit:

QuoteI can also add that changing Geomany skills is also impossible... Changing the formula also does nothing; they are always hardcoded with the same formula.

Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.

Philsov, I don't think you understood my skillset swap.  Monk the job has martial arts innate flagged (which can be removed with FFTPatcher).  It also cannot have martial arts learned with JP be set as a support ability.
Thus, if you then make monk have all the stat growths and abilities of summoner, then monk becomes summoner (has the stats of summoner, punch art now contains summons and the R/S/M of a summoner) except that this summoner (which took the spot in the class wheel of monk) can never learn martial arts (but doesn't have it innately, nor would any reasonable person give summoner martial arts for the support slot anyways).

Quote from: "philsov"That was kind of the idea in my original proposition: 3 attacks that can be boosted (but also blocked/negated/absorbed), and 2 attacks that can be manipulated by manipulating the held weapon but default to nothing.

Swordskills are already set to a coeffecient of 0.  I can't make them any weaker without reducing sword/knight sword WP.  I don't want them elementally boosted.  I understand where you're coming from with the multiple setups angle, but I think we're better off with the previous way in this case.[/quote]

I didn't mean somehow boost them, I meant equipment could be used to boost or weaken them pending the situation.

If that's how you feel on it though, very well.  It's not a big deal in the long run I s'pose, it just felt like a nice touch.

Quote from: "philsov"Well she doesn't anyways -- there's the ASM hack that'll make mighty sword work versus zodiacs/monsters/etc.  Did I not include that on the front page? >_>

Nope.  I didn't see it, at least, which surprised me.  Will her moves be keeping infinite vert tol with that ASM or will you be adjusting them?

Quote from: "philsov"I was actually planning on making all the gear that cancel:Dead also blocked cancel: Death Sentence to get the same thing accomplished, but that might work as well.

I see.  I'd just implement the ASM, myself, since the result is less editing work and makes Death Sentence a more worthwhile status.

Quote from: "philsov"No, ninja swords are keeping the same formula.  I had already boosted the WP to compensate the lowered SP, and the PA nerf will work with the perma-present two-swords.  In terms of relative output I want an attack up ninja to be swinging for about the same as any other physical class with two swords.  Btw a ninja at 99 will have 10 speed.

Alright, as long as their output is roughly that however you get there is fine with me.  I just want to be sure you don't accidentally nerf them too much.

Quote from: "philsov"I like.

I had the feeling you would.

Quote from: "philsov"I want to have all the supports available to all the classes -- if I do a class swap that class will have innate X.  So if I do this with say... summoner... they'll have innate martial arts which... I find incredibly odd.  To this end ninja will be keeping innate two swords, but I might do that thing with the monk waaaaay down the road.

See my previous post.  That mage would need to be benchpressing some to control monsters anyway, I would imagine.  Unless they're female, but that's a whole other can of worms best left unopened.

Quote from: "philsov"Meanwhile, I have been messing with ability consolidation and placement and such.  Ramza, Meliadoul, Musty, Gaffy, and Worker 8 gained new skills.  Worker 8's abilities reformed slightly to allow for AoE to boot.  But no self destruct, sorry  

Dare I ask how long each character's ability list is now (not what's in them, just how many to get an idea of how much the changes buffed them)?  I imagine Ramza's sitting close to 16 now, at least.

Quote from: "philsov"From perusing the new skill thread for skills that'll work without making a new class:

Pierce - (Knight?) double-panel PA*WP attack (think earth slash)
Piercing Strike - (Monk?) Cancel: Defend, Cancel: Protect, Cancel: Shell, deal X% HP damage.
Cleave - (Squire?) deals 50% max hp damage to target, weapon range
Venom Dervish - (Dancer) 10% max hp damage with a chance to poison - Wiznaibus adjusted
War Epic - (Bard) heal 10% max hp with with a chance to add regen - Life Song adjusted

I don't like the new songs/dances, myself.  Cleave deals 50% of user's max HP or target's max HP?    If user's, then yes, it seems cool for the Squire. If it's target's, then still probably yes though make it Dark Element (if possible) so Zodiacs will be immune.

I would change the name of either Pierce of Piercing Strike, but yes, both abilities seem awesome.

Quote from: "philsov"Giving a new skillset to archer does sound enticing, but I'm lost on what exactly to do with them since the number of PA based and cool formulas is dreadfully low, and I'd rather not go the lame elemental arrows route.  Browsing other archer variants, I've come up with this thus far (7 skills):

spoiler: Archer skillset::272g7ji9

Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

We need to get Eternal in here.  I like most of these though.

Though stuff like Heavy Arrow - will those work with non-ranged weapons?  I'm assuming (and hoping) no for consistency's sake, but you never know.

Quote from: "philsov"And... that's 12 atm for archer skillset + new generic abilities.  woot woot.  Comments, as always, welcome.  Otherwise, time to brainstorm on new boss shit and look at that item list.

Use the newer Item list, I fixed a lot of idiocy that somehow creeped into the original in that one.  Hopefully you get some good stuff from it.  :p

New boss stuff, another thing we could use Eternal for.  I've not got many ideas but IIRC his new patch has mostly new abilities for the bosses, so yeah.

Quote from: "philsov"Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.

I assume you've tested them thoroughly then.  If so, you'd best run off and correct him then.  :p

Quote from: "philsov"Shade of Grey = AA / 6
Turtle Shell = AC / F
Dual Kiss = AB/3

Kept the old item graphics because they'd still be unique, but I did swap the colors to be a bit more fitting and/or different.

So noted.

Quote from: "philsov"From perusing the new skill thread for skills that'll work without making a new class:

Pierce - (Knight?) double-panel PA*WP attack (think earth slash)

I've been trying to get type of attack to with my Knight and it's been...acting rather odd, even before the fact that it wants to bitch about the animation I've given it.

I think you have to limit to "Requires Sword" too because it acts really awkward with distance weapons from what little I've seen. So...yeah.

Quote from: "philsov"Piercing Strike - (Monk?) Cancel: Defend, Cancel: Protect, Cancel: Shell, deal X% HP damage.

This uses Death's formula, doesn't it? Which means that it won't affect Undead and uses MA, right?

Personally I would give it to a magical class.... (Or, rather, I have given similar techniques to a magical class.)

Then again, I hate Monks, so....

Quote from: "philsov"Cleave - (Squire?) deals 50% max hp damage to target, weapon range

I can't say I like this at all. Even if it has abysmal accuracy.

Quote from: "philsov"Venom Dervish - (Dancer) 10% max hp damage with a chance to poison - Wiznaibus adjusted
War Epic - (Bard) heal 10% max hp with with a chance to add regen - Life Song adjusted

These seem fine. I thought the Dance and Bard formulas didn't take status, though, outside of Nameless Dance and Nameless Song slot's being hardcorded, respectively.

I remember testing to find out and I completely forget.

Quote from: "philsov"Giving a new skillset to archer does sound enticing, but I'm lost on what exactly to do with them since the number of PA based and cool formulas is dreadfully low, and I'd rather not go the lame elemental arrows route.  Browsing other archer variants, I've come up with this thus far (7 skills):

spoiler: Archer skillset::2pyfy1oo

Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

I can't say I like abilities that only the player can use effectively.

Ache through Heavy Arrow seem like they're good.

Salve and Execute seem kind of out of place "flavor-wise". What formula would you even be using for Execute anyway? The Death formula?

Quote from: "philsov"Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.

Well, that's nice to know. Although, I have to ask: you're sure it's not just the variable you're using for Y that makes it seem like it's the same?

QuotePhilsov, I don't think you understood my skillset swap.

No, I get it.  But again, I want all classes to have access to all innates.  Thus, if a class cannot learn X ability, they will get X innately.  This is also why Ninjas are keeping innate two-swords (I can't think of any other class that fits better), Mediators monster talk, and chemists throw item.  Innate martial arts to summoner is one hell of a mystical hand-wave.

QuoteDare I ask how long each character's ability list is now (not what's in them, just how many to get an idea of how much the changes buffed them)? I imagine Ramza's sitting close to 16 now, at least.

Heh, not that much longer.  2 for Ramza, 2 for Gaf, 2 for musty, 1 for meliadoul, 1 for Worker 8 (plus work tweaking).  

So... Ramza's at 11 atm.  

QuoteCleave deals 50% of user's max HP or target's max HP? If user's, then yes, it seems cool for the Squire. If it's target's, then still probably yes though make it Dark Element (if possible) so Zodiacs will be immune.

target, and surely dark elemental.  

QuoteI would change the name of either Pierce of Piercing Strike, but yes, both abilities seem awesome.

Indeed, just some c/p from the skillset thread.

QuoteThough stuff like Heavy Arrow - will those work with non-ranged weapons? I'm assuming (and hoping) no for consistency's sake, but you never know.

No, there isn't a "requires ranged weapon" flag for me to toggle.  It's weapon range for the moment.

QuoteI think you have to limit to "Requires Sword" too because it acts really awkward with distance weapons from what little I've seen. So...yeah.

iirc, that only works on abilities that deal "weapon" damage.  To circumvent this I'm using the pure PA * WP formula (2d?) from swordskills.

Quote[Piercing Strike] uses Death's formula, doesn't it? Which means that it won't affect Undead and uses MA, right?

It'd heal the undead and is more affected by Faith than MA, but the success rate is ramped up to max to help out -- but I may give it to a mage class yet.  

QuoteI thought the Dance and Bard formulas didn't take status, though, outside of Nameless Dance and Nameless Song slot's being hardcorded, respectively.

Ha.  Blipped out for a second; turns out the only non-faith based abilities that heal/dmg for X% also have that nasty status pre-req thing.  Meh.  Poor things are scrapped.

QuoteSalve and Execute seem kind of out of place "flavor-wise". What formula would you even be using for Execute anyway? The Death formula?

FF3 hunters had access to white magic and FF5 animals sometimes helped out.  Meanwhile FFTA hunters rocked the Oust ability which is basically the same thing only it only worked vs monsters.  But, yes, Death formula which is again marred by the whole Faith thing.  

Quoteyou're sure it's not just the variable you're using for Y that makes it seem like it's the same?

Positive.  My level 99 time mage (7 PA, 25 MA, MAU, neutral compat -- all Y's are 4 btw) -- is rocking 35 damage on the physical panels, 165 for the hybrid panels, and 462 for the magical panels.  Vive le elemental~

Edit:  Shotgunning formulas into elemental, 17 (all damage but 1, faith based), 2F (Night Sword), 34 (Chakra), and 37 (Dash?) work.  1E (Truth) only works for a single blow.  1C (% to work) doesn't work with its assigned status.  Seems a bit sporadic but its able to take in several (most?) formulas no problem.  Where'd r999's say otherwise?

Edit2:  Yes, I can make the movement abilities like Any Weather/Any Ground support slots instead, but I doubt it'll change much if anything.

Comments:
1. There are 3 % HP damage formulas.  Death's formula, which deals X% HP damage, heals undead, and inflicts some status at 100%.  Demi's formula, which deals X% HP damage, is faith dependent, and can take a status and element.  Then there's the unused formula 53, which deals X% HP damage, takes status and elemental, and is dependent only on MA, and has no oddities with undead.  I'd suggest you use that one.
2. If you use damage formula 0 or 2, you must have equip sword or guns can exploit for 999 damage, but I think you already knew that.
3. Song and dance do take status, but if you set them to have a status, they will not modify HP/MP.  R999 had a thread in Help on this.
4. What's fixed about geomancer is their ability to take MP costs or silenced (never) and their ability to be mimed or tied to terrain (always).  The damage formula can be modified, though.

Quote from: "philsov"No, I get it.  But again, I want all classes to have access to all innates.  Thus, if a class cannot learn X ability, they will get X innately.  This is also why Ninjas are keeping innate two-swords (I can't think of any other class that fits better), Mediators monster talk, and chemists throw item.  Innate martial arts to summoner is one hell of a mystical hand-wave.

Does it have to be Summoner? Couldn't you just give Innate Martial Arts to Squire (or Dancer)?

Something that would make sense but still wouldn't make the class that got it the new overpowered class that Monk is.

Quote from: "philsov"iirc, that only works on abilities that deal "weapon" damage.  To circumvent this I'm using the pure PA * WP formula (2d?) from swordskills.

Wait. That only works with formula 2D?

...Damn it.

Quote from: "philsov"FF3 hunters had access to white magic and FF5 animals sometimes helped out.

You appear to have misunderstood me, which I guess is my fault for being vague.

I didn't mean "why are Archers healing?" I meant "why are Archers healing things like Petrify or Frog?"

Like I said "flavor" stuff. I like to try to give all my things reasonable effects that have to do something with what the class is about. So why I could understand the class having say, a Salve that cures eye-related ailments and the like, I'm not sure why they would have infinite Maiden Kisses or Infinite Holy Water on hand.

Quote from: "philsov"Positive.  My level 99 time mage (7 PA, 25 MA, MAU, neutral compat -- all Y's are 4 btw) -- is rocking 35 damage on the physical panels, 165 for the hybrid panels, and 462 for the magical panels.  Vive le elemental~

Edit:  Shotgunning formulas into elemental, 17 (all damage but 1, faith based), 2F (Night Sword), 34 (Chakra), and 37 (Dash?) work.  1E (Truth) only works for a single blow.  1C (% to work) doesn't work with its assigned status.  Seems a bit sporadic but its able to take in several (most?) formulas no problem.  Where'd r999's say otherwise?

Well, that's good to know.

I've never spoken to R999, so RavenofRazgriz will have to answer.

We need him here to reply for himself but apparently he said he couldn't change geomancer's formula to something else without reseting to what geomancer had innately (24).  As you just shown, that's not true.

1C (bard) works, or so he says, when assigned a status (and just loses healing), but I'm willing to bet the problem is that the 10 slots for elemental attacks are hard-coded to be tied to terrain, exist only in the elemental skillset, and probably only accept formulas that modify stats.

EDIT:
See viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4725 (last 4 posts) and viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4868 (last post on page 1).

^Regarding Geomancy, I have only tested with the Tri-flame and Rafa / Malak formulas. All of which only hit one time even with the X value set at > 1, and the damage appears to be that of using [formula 24], that was why I had stopped testing with the Geomancy abilities and came to that above conclusion. I'll take your word for it that it works with other formulas, although just to make sure, I would double check to see if the X and Y values are taken into factor correctly.

Both the Bard and Dancer formulas actually do inflict statuses. You can verify this easily -- by adding a status to all of the Songs and Dances --and they should work correctly.  Other than that though, I am not 100% sure if they would work on other ability slots.

Quote from: "philsov"Heh, not that much longer.  2 for Ramza, 2 for Gaf, 2 for musty, 1 for meliadoul, 1 for Worker 8 (plus work tweaking

So... Ramza's at 11 atm.  

Less than I was expecting, especially for Gafgarion.  Heh.  

I'm guessing you haven't recreated the old Cheer Up, etc. yet if Ramza's numbers are so low.

Quote from: "philsov"target, and surely dark elemental.

Passes for me, then.  Only thing is that it seems a bit silly with bows.  Force it to have 1 range?

Then again, maybe I'm just being too conservative, because

Quote from: "philsov"No, there isn't a "requires ranged weapon" flag for me to toggle.  It's weapon range for the moment.

Ah.  Then just rename it I suppose.

Quote from: "philsov"It'd heal the undead and is more affected by Faith than MA, but the success rate is ramped up to max to help out -- but I may give it to a mage class yet.

You could always buff the Archer's MA Multiplier as well.  As long as it's not too high it shouldn't be a big deal.

Quote from: "philsov"Edit2:  Yes, I can make the movement abilities like Any Weather/Any Ground support slots instead, but I doubt it'll change much if anything.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a bunch of abilities that work as mildly useful innates and niche support abilities than a bunch of abilities that are mostly useless if they're not innate.