Final Fantasy Hacktics

General => Archives => FFT: ASM'd => Topic started by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 04:38:12 pm

Title: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 04:38:12 pm
New patch in the works!  

(http://philsov.ffhacktics.com/Patches/ASMd/Pics/chawcawbawterlarge.PNG)

Three main goals:

- Include a lot of ASM hacks made to date
- Put a stronger emphasis on character/party placement
- Increased balance between classes

Details:


- Reduction of range/movement across the board.  Base move reduced to 2-3, move +3, teleport removed from the game, reduction in +move accessories.  Range for most abilities reduced to 3, with a few past that.

- The ASM/hex hacks made to date, including the following:

Jump increase to 3/2 regardless of weapon equipped
Broken/stolen items can be bought back at the fur shop
Defending reduces physical damage by 25%
Wall reduces all damage to 1
Poison/Regen damage/healing effect capped at 999 health
Drain effects capped at 999 health
Soldier office can rename anyone
Special chars can go on propositions
Undead takes 25% damage from Phoenix Down
Remove permanent effects of Br/Fa modication (+ bring back/buff praise/preach/threaten/etc)
Weapon Guard evade for all (shields/mantles re-adjusted)
Axes/Flails get new formula of ((0 + (1..PA)) + PA) * WP.  (WP to be adjusted)
Global Class-evade (now affects side and back)
AI attacks transparent units
Mighty Sword works on monsters and Zodiacs
Equip Spear now equips both Spears and Sticks
Equip Clothes (new skill, goodbye Equip Katana) now enables hats and light armor
Equip Mageset (new skill, goodbye Equip Axe) now enables rods, staves, and books
Equip Meleeset (new skill, goodbye Equip Sword) now enables Swords, Axes, and Flails
Equip Bow now enables Longbow and Crossbow


More tweaks:
- Speed growths halved throughout the game.  Base speed at level 99 will be about 9.  This provides a much more stable curve for all charge-time abilities throughout the game, and hopefully does not force all casters into short charge by end game.

- Daggers are gaining 25% chance to inflict various status
- Spears grant +PA
- Axe, Flail WP altered in line with their new formula.
- Epic Caster hat and Epic Light Armor Hat introduced as DD move-finds. Barette/Cashusa removed from the game.
- Perfumes, Bags, and Ribbon are now unisex.
- Poaching nerfed to the ground.  Poachable items that outclass anything storebought will now be either stealables or war trophies, found in random battles on late-game maps such as Dolbodar.

- New class!  Blue mage!  Replaces the calculator, and gains its action abilities from monsters and a few from bosses.  below average HP, above average MP, average SP, above-average PA and MA.  Monster skills and monsters MA/PA altered to fit on both monsters and humans.  Able to equip light armor and robes, along with swords and staves.  
Choco Cure
Goblin Punch
Look of Devil
Small Flame
Drain Touch

Leaf Dance
Thunder Breath
Wave Around
Sudden Cry
Dark Holy

Bio3 - Queklain
Quake - ???
Melt - ???
Tornado - ???

- Archers are gaining a real skillset!
Camoflague - Self only, add transparent
Execute - Deals 21% HP damage to a unit in the critical status.  Non-evadeable, instant.
Poison Volley - Inflicts Poison to an AoE.  
Aim - Deals WP*SP damage, unevadeable.  Has synergy with two-swords.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence
Salve - Cleanses target various negative status, and heals for 20% health upon success.

- AoE from Draw Out and Summon Magic modified -- now featuring linear attacks, 3-way attacks, and good old classic aoe.  Smart-targetting function also removed from many abilities.

- Item skillset reformed.  Auto-potion effect capped at 100 HP.  Single-status removal items gone.  All status removing is now in either Remedy or Holy Water.  When either Remedy or Holy Water is successful, the target is now also healed for anywhere from 1 to 150 HP.  New potion class heals for 200 HP (auto-potion immune).  New Ether class grants 80 MP.  Gained three new skills which can be used offensively or defensively, whichever tickles your fancy:

Dual Kiss - Grants both Haste and Poison to the target
Turtle Shell - Grants both Slow and Protect to the target
Shade of Grey - Grants either Faith or Innocent to the target

- Steal Gil, Steal Exp removed from the game.  New Thief skill, Muddle, inflicts the confusion status to the target, with the same chance to work as Steal Heart -- only this one ignores gender.

- Negotiate and Death Sentence Talk Skills removed from the game.  Talk skill given the 4 moves from 1.3 -- warn (inflicts defend), threaten (inflicts Don't Act), Preach (inflicts reraise), and Refute (cancels most status effectis) along with the 4 original Br/Fa modifiers, who now modify in increments of 10 in either direction.

- Elemental diversified slightly -- some panels effects are now either Pure PA or MA-based damage, and a few retain the older composite formula.

- Ice/Fire/Bolt/Cure 4 modified into 0 CTR, single-panel abilities with teir 2.5 strength and moderate MP cost (named Freeze, Blaze, Jolt, and Solace, respectively).  Power of 1 through 3 shifted.
- Shatter, new wizard spell, removes defending, protect, and/or shell and in doing so deals 30% HP damage to the target.
- Comet, new time mage spell, is 0 CTR, single-panel ability of teir 2 strength with moderate MP cost and no elemental property.
- Quell, new yin-yang spell, is a 0 CTR, single-panel ability with a likely success rate (faith based) of canceling the charging status.
- Silf, new Summon Magic spell, is a 0 CTR, single-panel ability with the ability to inflict both Don't Move and Poison.  
- Blind Blade, new squire skill, inflicts PA*WP damage with a 100% chance to blind the target with a minor MP cost.
- Counter Condemn, new monk skill, counter attacks with a chance to inflict death sentence on the target.  Counter Tackle removed.
- Cleave, new knight ability, has a chance to deal 50% HP damage.
- Pierce, new squire ability, affects a two-panel range.
- Blind Blow, new squire ability, is a normal melee attack with a 100% chance to blind the target.

- (From 1.3) Samurai lose innate two hands, Thieves lose innate concentrate

- Ninja recieves massive PA reduction to compensate for innate two-swords.

- Hamedo, Abandon, MP Switch removed from the player's arsenal.  With weapon guard innate, Squires gain Counter, Knights gain Meatbone Slash, and Samurai gain Br Up.   Both Bards and Dancers will have both PA and MA save reactions.  Distribute given to the Oracle class.

- Move +3, Teleport removed from the player's arsenal.  Thieves gain Move +1, Bards and Dancers gain Move +2.  Move HP up is now a Knight ability, while Move MP-Up is a wizard ability.  Fly given to the Oracle class.  

- Monsters all given the Caution reaction ability has a secondary reaction.  Mimes lose innate Monster Skill - gain both Counter and Counter Magic.  All zodiac bosses given a new primary and secondary reaction ability.  Those are a surprise :)

- Rad/Lavian/Alicia/Agrias/Mustadio enter with better jobs unlocked.[/quote]

New job tree.  In trying to even out the generic classes, the higher-teired jobs are now slightly easier to unlock.  

BASIC JOBS: (no unlocking required)
Chemist, Squire, Knight, Archer, Priest, Wizard.

SECONDARY JOBS:
Monk: 3 Chemist + 3 Knight
Lancer: 3 Knight + 3 Archer
Thief: 3 Archer + 3 Squire
Blue Mage: 3 Squire + 3 Wizard
Oracle: 3 Priest + 3 Wizard
Mediator: 3 Chemist + 3 Priest
Geomancer: 3 Knight + 3 Wizard

TERTIARY JOBS::
Samurai: 4 Monk + 4 Lancer
Ninja: 4 Thief + 4 Lancer
Dancer: 4 Geomancer + 4 Lancer
Time Mage: 4 Mediator + 4 Oracle
Summoner: 4 Oracle + 4 Blue Mage
Bard: 4 Geomancer + 4 Oracle
Mime: 4 Monk + 4 Lancer + 4 Thief + 4 Blue Mage + 4 Oracle + 4 Mediator + 4 Geomancer

- New stat growths, falling into 6 archetypal classes.  All generics and specials belong to one of these categories.  Ultimately the gaps creating by going pure Fighter or Blaster mage will be about 3 points of PA/MA at level 99, which is roughly the same as the male/female gap.  It can ultimately be ignored, but those really looking to min-max their units, the option is certainly available.

High-healths:  Knight, Monk, Lancer + Agrias/Orlandu/Meliadoul -- best HP growth, bad MP growth, good PA growth, worst MA growth.
Fighters: Archer, Thief, Dancer, Ninja, Squire + Mustudio -- average HP growth, worst MP growth, best PA growth, worst MA growth
Hybrids: Geomancer, Samurai, Blue Mage + Malak/Beowulf/Cloud -- average HP growth, bad MP growth, good PA growth, good MA growth
Status Mages: Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Mediator, Chemist -- average HP growth, best MP growth, worst PA growth, good MA growth
Blaster Mages: Wizard, Summoner, Bard + Rafa -- worst HP growth, good MP growth, worst PA growth, best MA growth
Kick Ass:  Mime, Ramza/Reis --  above average across the board

- Change/variance within weapon choice (and their new W.Ev figures).  

- Updating class evasion to jive better with scheme and global aspect

- New status durations/charge times -- In response to less speed as the game continues, status duration has increased by roughly 20%, being balanced around having 8 speed.  Spell charge time now a steadier curve, as well.

ENTD Progress: ~25%
Mechanical Progress: ~80%
Hopeful Hex Hax0ring Progress: 33%
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 11, 2009, 05:43:49 pm
I like the idea, but I'm not so keen on the "Jump 3/2 Regardless of Weapon" hack, Jump is already a fantastic skillset, and it devalues Equip Spear, that people may use with Jump.

Also as for your comments in the first video...

I cannot agree that FFT's story becomes "normal" after Chapter 2, FFT is still a very unique game, and in a way Was the original Da Vinci code. The web of lies, intrigue, and ancient conspiracy the first time through the game was awing, at least to me. To me the story just became more incredible after Chapter 2, the Lucavi as they are displayed in FFT are mysterious, dreadfully creepy, and threatening (unfortunately gameplay for them doesn't measure up...). Delita becomes the helm of the politics while Ramza does what Delita cannot, he deals with the roots of the problems. The Glabados Faith and the demons playing puppet master (poor Funeral...) Also the game doesn't deviate from it's political implications Delita keeps that all in the player's minds. WoTL manages to accomplish this even better with the Delita Scenarios they had added. FFT's story is anything but normal and generic, while demons and magic stones are generic, it's the case they used with each that makes FFT a very dark and foreboding story. It was not a "typical" Final Fantasy story.
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Post by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 06:20:43 pm
I find jump to be quite a lackluster skillset, largely because using it basically requires a support slot used up as well.  In terms of damage it is inferior to throw in almost every aspect, save the ability to avoid incoming charge effects.  

As for the story, it seems we disagree, but in either case its in need of some meta humor.  Maybe even a new ending :)
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Post by: Dome on October 11, 2009, 06:45:51 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Maybe even a new ending :)
Princess Ovelia accepts the flowers, kisses Delita, then she cast Non-charged dark holy killing him, and then she turns into Altima
LULZ xD
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 06:47:16 pm
@ Br / Fa modding: if abilities which can lower Br/Fa make a comeback, abilities to rise it must come back. There's no sense in only being able to lose it and not being able to recover; it's like insta-reset for most of the cases. However, I'd rather not have any of those back. But that's just me... imagining 30 Fa , 97 Br units... If you could cap Br and Fa at 40 (lowest) and 70 (highest), then it's ok.

@ Changing story and getting humor IN: sounds fine to me, do as you please... I think I'll enjoy it either way :( Teleport looks absolutely cool, and also is much more riskier than Move+2 in most cases...

@ Two Swords / Two Hands / Short Charge innates: leave those innate and make Short Charge innate for Sage. They're supposed to be some kind of "Ultimate" classes, and yeah mages were always at disadvantage, so innate Short Charge for their "ultimate" class makes total sense.

@ Draw out... with reduced movement making it "ally only/enemy only" would solve the problem, but it'd make it slightly OP. Maybe adding a small MP cost, or adding a very small charge time...

@ Monsters with multiple reactions: ...how does that work? If a chocobo has counter and counter tackle, 70 Br and I attack him, he'd have, 70% chance of using counter and then another 70% chance to use counter tackle? That seems a little too much... =/

I probably forgot more stuff so I may edit again later..
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Post by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 06:58:49 pm
Quoteif abilities which can lower Br/Fa make a comeback, abilities to rise it must come back. There's no sense in only being able to lose it and not being able to recover; it's like insta-reset for most of the cases.

1) Package deal.  The raisers and the droppers.

2) It's in-battle only, as in it resets between battles.  The 97 Br unit would only come into existence after a few rounds of praising/cheer up -- think accumulate, only except with brave and faith.  The same can be said for brave/faith lowering -- If you want to make a target immune to magic damage you can Solution them for a few rounds and then they're set -- are increments of 10 too much?.  But more importantly it doesn't carry over.

QuotePlease, 3 base move to "melee" oriented units and 2 base move to "ranged" oriented units!

Ramza is a samurai for both the 2nd and 3rd videos, rocking 3 and 4 move (move +1 and move+2), respectively.  The monks (also in the 2nd and 3rd pairs) also have 2 movement.  "Melee" is fine at 2.  Only things with 3 will be squires, thieves, and ninjas.  Torn on geos...
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 07:32:05 pm
Hey Phil, check out my first post which I edited!

@ Br / Fa: you're saying that the modding would only last for the actual battle? That's fine IMO. However, we would be losing Threaten/Cheer up/Scream/etc as they are now?

@ Base move tweaking: fine, have it your way. I may as well complain AFTER I play the patch... YOU'RE LEAVING MOVE+1 ON THE SQUIRE SKILLSET AND MOVE+2 ON THIEF SKILLSET THOUGH, RIGHT?

I have a suggestion I ALWAYS ALWAYS make and no one listens. I'll quote myself from the original 1.3 Easytype topic:
QuoteOne thing I always, always, always say and no one listens: mage's charge time! They're awesome in the early game, and then in mid CH2 / early CH3 you're forced to give them Short Charge as support, or else they'll always be killed / critic'ed before successfully casting. IIRC there was some kind of hack that involved speed or the unit's level into the formula to solve this... is this a possible (wanted?) change? Or is this straying too far from the aim of the patch?
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Post by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 07:55:01 pm
QuoteMaybe adding a small MP cost, or adding a very small charge time...

Impossible due to DO's formula, regrettably.

Quote@ Br / Fa: you're saying that the modding would only last for the actual battle? That's fine IMO. However, we would be losing Threaten/Cheer up/Scream/etc as they are now?

I'm pretty sure there aren't enough ability slots left to keep both the new skills and bring back in the old ones.  I may be able to squeeze them in via ability consolidation/removal, but I'd like to see if it's even warranted in the first place.

QuoteYOU'RE LEAVING MOVE+1 ON THE SQUIRE SKILLSET AND MOVE+2 ON THIEF SKILLSET THOUGH, RIGHT?

No, I'm not.  I don't know what your fascination is with melee units all having the ability to bypass weapon guard and shields and backstab in all cases is, but it is something this patch will hopefully remedy.  The current plan is to give Move+1 to thieves, Move HP Up to knights and Move MP up to wizards.  The movement slot won't stay empty for long.  As for teleport, I wish Raz were still around because he had a hack in the works to reduce additional panels for teleport at a 20% chance reduction... which would work GREAT in this context.  But under the current conditions 10% for each additional panel, along with the ability to ignore height/fly is just absurd.

QuoteMultiple reactions ...how does that work? If a chocobo has counter and counter tackle, 70 Br and I attack him, he'd have, 70% chance of using counter and then another 70% chance to use counter tackle? That seems a little too much... =/

First they'd be multiplicative... so assuming counter has highest priority, in response to a melee attack:

70% chance to Counter
21% chance to counter tackle
9% to not counter

I'm personally more interested in combining abilities with different triggers, like HP restore and counter, counter and counter magic, abandon + hp restore + damage split, and such.

QuoteOne thing I always, always, always say and no one listens: mage's charge time!

The only way to make them variable would be to give them Jump-like charge times.  Which I think is doable with a little hacking.  However, because it isn't a set number, the game cannot calculate when the action will land until it's been confirmed.  And doing the math yourself on whether or not your mage is safe to a cast a spell is a total and complete pain, and one that we cannot avoid if we make charge time based on Speed (or level).
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 11, 2009, 08:10:43 pm
I generally like these, however, a few nitpicky things and a couple suggestions:

1.  I don't see a correlation between being able to equip a gun and a robe, logically.  Play-wise, I'm sure this idea is done because it allows Elemental Gun X + Black Robe, but it makes no logical sense in terms of the ability "Equip Gun".  Also, unless you're heavily nerfing the range on guns (which, since they're technically pistols iirc, kinda makes sense...), I would think a single ability that allows any class to equip both a magic gun and a Black Robe would be rather OP.

2.  I thought stacking Weapon Guard and another reaction always caused Weapon Guard to override the other reaction command?  Or was that fixed?  Also, wouldn't Weapon Guard + Abandon on the same unit end up being stupid?  It makes sense to do the change logically, but I think it'd require either making a lot of evade percents ridiculously low (something I wouldn't like) and/or removing Abandon to not make the game too luck based for non-Concentrating physical hitters.  Unless I'm totally missing something here.

3.  Jump.  Could you make its base damage 3/2 then make it 4/2 for anything equipping a Spear?  Or would that be too OP?  I think Jump needs a buff for non-Spear users, but Spear users should *still* get an added bonus of some kind... else Lancer as a class loses a fair bit of value, as does Equip Spear.

4.  Give Sages Short Charge.  Keep Two Swords and Two Hands on the respective physical classes.  Combos with Attack UP are kinda beastly, but with far less move, getting in and making them happen is less likely.  Are you nerfing the range of magic to ~3 squares as well?

5.  Keep Teleport.  Maybe increase the failure rate per panel to 20 or 25%.  Give Fly an added Move +1 bonus or something to make it so Teleport isn't 100% better than it.

6.  Remove permanent Br/Fa modification, but keep current abilities for Cheer Up / etc.  This means the player doesn't end up with worthless units should something like Terror (iirc?) get cast on them.  It also stops a max Br Gariland unit from ending up with ridiculous Brave compared to units the player gets later.

7.  Is there a reason Knight Swords are allowed to become straight PA*WP but Katanas aren't?  I've always wondered this.  (I'm in favor of making Katanas follow Knight Swords so that they're better physical weapons instead of solely being used for Draw Outs, obviously).  In an odd note, I almost want to say Samurai should be allowed to use Long Bows since (again, iirc) they use them historically, but that'd probably devalue the Archer too much.

8.  Global Class Evasion doesn't sit well with me.  I don't see why a Wizard and a Ninja should be equally skilled at dodging a frontal assault when logically the Ninja is obviously going to be better at it.  Unless this was only going to be done because of the innate Weapon Guard thing... but that already has some issues unless I'm missing something.  If I've missed something or am wrong about the Weapon Guard thing, I will say I am in favor of maybe lowering some of the Class Evasions or making them all based on 2-4 baseline numbers, but I think one straight number isn't right, as it weakens the classes that actually need it while not doing as much to the classes that really only used it to dodge long bow rounds anyway.
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Post by: philsov on October 11, 2009, 08:27:22 pm
Great posts, keep em up :)

1) Obviously the name of the ability is going to be changed into something more fitting.  Guns are staying at 8 range.  But elemental guns + 108 gems is possible for anything anyways.  But a support than enables robe equipment?  Why not?

2) No, weapon guard doesn't override the equipped reaction.  The priest in the 4th video uses both weapon guard and auto-potion.  And, yes, weapon evasion numbers will be reworked, along with shields/mantles to prevent all this from becoming absurd.

3) I think 2x on spear jumps is OP, but spears/lancers need a review anyways.  Maybe +PA to spears...

4) yes, most magic is getting down to 3 range.  Only exceptions (iirc) are holy and flare.  Some of the defensive spells like protect and haste that used to be 3 range are now 2.

5) If you know how to alter teleport, you're welcome to show me how >_<.

6) Terror got erased from the game already, but keeping the old skills just means that the events at Mandalia/Zeakden/Zaland have no effect on Br values...

7) Knight swords are forced 2H and do not receive the 2H bonus.  Katana is br-based but also is boosted by 2H.  The perk of knight swords is their status and synergy with special characters, not direct damage.  As for bows, nah, devalues the archer too much.  But, longbows are getting equippable via support, so if you're going for RP that's still possible :p

8) Under the current numbers, a ninja has 30% class evasion while a wizard has 5%.  Global class evasion means that class evasion also occurs on all sides with diminished results -- 50% effectiveness on sides and 25% effectiveness on the back.  Wizards thus gain 1-2% evasion on back attacks while ninjas get 7-8%.  This is of course current numbers, these too are getting adjusted to prevent stupidness.  But if nothing else this is a welcome change for monsters, imo.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 09:03:02 pm
QuoteGreat posts, keep em up :(

@ Short Charge for Sages: yay! Raven agrees too, see? ^^
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 11, 2009, 10:03:07 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Great posts, keep em up :)

Alright.

I'm gonna make some suggestions that'll sound silly going top down, and I don't feel like reworking it, so I'm going to state here I honestly think Abandon should simply be removed from the game with these kinds of changes (both yours and some I'm about to suggest).  Besides, being nigh-unhittable by anything that doesn't ignore evasion seems silly.

Only thing sillier is Hamedo, which allows you to abuse AI glitches and probably could get its own argument for becoming a boss-only ability a-la Blade Grasp.

So, that said, let's move on.

Quote from: "philsov"1) Obviously the name of the ability is going to be changed into something more fitting.  Guns are staying at 8 range.  But elemental guns + 108 gems is possible for anything anyways.  But a support than enables robe equipment?  Why not?

Giving up an accessory slot seems more detrimental than an armor slot for something that's fighting at 8 panels away when nothing moves more than 3 panels at a time (a reason I think guns would need a range nerf in this version, how the hell are you going to reach a gunner... and how the hell are they shooting you across the map with a pistol?!).

As for an "Equip Robe", I've an interesting solution for it that would also fix something that's bugged me since the dawn of FFT.  

Make every class in the game able to equip a Shield, and make Equip Shield into Equip Robe.  I've never understood why, say, a Wizard can't use a shield... pretty much every other FF game that has a Shield slot allows Wizards to use Shields, so why not in FFT?  Without Abandon, and the reworked numbers from innate Weapon Guard on all, I don't think this would really be broken without some shield that's broken in and of itself (say, Escutcheon II, though that has good reason to be broke).  Plus, I think this would fit quite nicely in with how you describe Global Class Evasion below.

It'd allow far more interesting setups with the elemental shields, Aegis Shield would become better (though I think it already has in this version), and you'd have your Equip Robe while also making the game make more sense and being a bit more in line with... just about every other previous FF game.  

I think that'd be the most sensible, since Equip Gun gets a whole lot better under these rules anyway (especially if you're keeping Guns with 8 range). Speaking of, if you do this, I would force Guns to become Two Hands only, if possible, so they aren't sniping from miles away while benefiting from Shield evasion.   Or something.

I had this idea thought out far better two hours ago when I had no opportunity to post it.

Quote from: "philsov"2) No, weapon guard doesn't override the equipped reaction.  The priest in the 4th video uses both weapon guard and auto-potion.  And, yes, weapon evasion numbers will be reworked, along with shields/mantles to prevent all this from becoming absurd.

Ah.

Alright then.  I didn't have time to watch the videos before posting, and still kinda don't.  I'll need to look them over later tonight.

Quote from: "philsov"3) I think 2x on spear jumps is OP, but spears/lancers need a review anyways.  Maybe +PA to spears...

Lancers in 1.3 are incredibly useful once they get Two Hands, imo.  Mained one the entire game and didn't regret it for a minute.  It just seems wrong for them to not be the best with their own skillset.  Many classes were rebalanced in 1.3 to work well with their main skillset (see: Samurai), so making all Jumps equal seems like a step backwards.

Quote from: "philsov"4) yes, most magic is getting down to 3 range.  Only exceptions (iirc) are holy and flare.  Some of the defensive spells like protect and haste that used to be 3 range are now 2.

I don't think the defensive Spells need a range nerf, myself.  Making all the "standard" magic 3 range seems fine, as it keeps the mage classes on equal footing.

Quote from: "philsov"5) If you know how to alter teleport, you're welcome to show me how >_<.

I don't, sorry.  >.<

Though I'd also have no idea how to make Ignore Height better to compete with Fly and Teleport, thinking on it, as they all serve the same role currently.

Quote from: "philsov"6) Terror got erased from the game already, but keeping the old skills just means that the events at Mandalia/Zeakden/Zaland have no effect on Br values...

I'd have no problems with those events not affecting Br regardless of the abilities being changed or not.

I know there are still a few abilities that modify Br left, but one of them's a Monster Skill and one's only on a single monster, so I think leaving it as 1.3 has it right now may be best in terms of Br modification and Cheer Up / etc.

Quote from: "philsov"7) Knight swords are forced 2H and do not receive the 2H bonus.  Katana is br-based but also is boosted by 2H.  The perk of knight swords is their status and synergy with special characters, not direct damage.  As for bows, nah, devalues the archer too much.  But, longbows are getting equippable via support, so if you're going for RP that's still possible :p

I say this because you wanted to remove innate Two Hands because of Two Hands + Attack UP, however the WP*PA*Br formula essentially (I say essentially as I haven't sat down and did the math out yet beyond figuring 70 Br is a 30% power reduction and Attack UP is a 33% PA boost) negates any bonus Attack UP would give without a monster Br stat and honestly makes Samurais better suited for using Equip Spear most of the time.  That honestly seems damn silly, especially since Samurais are a top-tier physical class.

Quote from: "philsov"8) Under the current numbers, a ninja has 30% class evasion while a wizard has 5%.  Global class evasion means that class evasion also occurs on all sides with diminished results -- 50% effectiveness on sides and 25% effectiveness on the back.  Wizards thus gain 1-2% evasion on back attacks while ninjas get 7-8%.  This is of course current numbers, these too are getting adjusted to prevent stupidness.  But if nothing else this is a welcome change for monsters, imo.

Ahhhhhh.

I misunderstood what you meant by "Global".  It sounds like you want to set all C-EVs to the same number the way it's worded in the OP.

This I like.  A global C-EV on all classes, I do not, which is what I originally thought you were going to do.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 10:22:02 pm
@ Equip shield and mages: allowing wizards/mage classes the use of shields? The same way a ninja with 30% EV and a Wizard with only 5% makes sense, you'll have to admit that a shield is big and heavy, and not only needs strength but also dexterity (two stats which mages lack horribly). Even if you allowed them to use only early shields (example: up to mythril shields) I still don't agree with this one.

@ Guns: with the heavy move reduction and range nerfing on most abilities, guns will be kinda OP. Maybe making them range 6... because if I have a knight with 2 move and the enemy has a chemist with 2 move and a gun, I'll be chasing him for the whole battle, and even if I had 3 move he'd still get around 6 hits before I get to him. Dancers and Archers placed on high places will also be at a greater advantage than before...

@ Lancers and Jump: Lancers / Spear wielding units should still have a Jump boost. Would you say it's fair that a Geomancer or a Knight has the same jumping power as a Lancer? Makes them less useful/unique :(
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 11, 2009, 10:34:14 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"@ Equip shield and mages: allowing wizards/mage classes the use of shields? The same way a ninja with 30% EV and a Wizard with only 5% makes sense, you'll have to admit that a shield is big and heavy, and not only needs strength but also dexterity (two stats which mages lack horribly). Even if you allowed them to use only early shields (example: up to mythril shields) I still don't agree with this one.

I would agree, but every other FF mage can use Shields in any game where shields are an equipment slot.

Are you telling me Ivalicians are just born with horrifically underdeveloped muscles compared to mages in other FF universes?

Precedent defeats an otherwise "logical" argument here, as FF flavor actually says a big "yes" to mages with shields.




@Philsov:  Also, quick thought.  Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the current move ranges (3-4), and take out Move +2 and Move +3, instead of reducing move and taking out Move +3?  With an average of 2 Move, Move +2 becomes the equivalent of Move +3 because it doubles a character's range.  Granted, the double is smaller, but every move space matters so much more when you get so many of them, meaning Move +2 would still outclass things.  Base 3 move with Move +1 available on Thieves would right this easily, as it's far easier to compete against Move +1 for a Movement Ability slot when every unit has ~3 Move than it is to compete with Move +2 when every unit only has ~2 Move.  The results are mostly the same, yet other Movement skills (such as Move-HP UP) actually *are* viable, instead of just looking better on paper.

Imo, anyway.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 10:55:20 pm
Well... recently in 1.3 SQUIRES have been given the ability to equip shields... SQUIRES!!!

If you're giving mages the ability to equip shields, you have to give every other class the ability to do so. That + base move revamp + Global evasion + innate weapong guard = melee units missing 3/4 of their attacks because every damn unit has crazy evasion.

Also, nice thought about base move revamp. Removing move+2 and move+3 and leaving the other stuff as it is may also be useful... but let's see what Philsov thinks.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 11, 2009, 11:06:53 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"Well... recently in 1.3 SQUIRES have been given the ability to equip shields... SQUIRES!!!

If you're giving mages the ability to equip shields, you have to give every other class the ability to do so. That + base move revamp + Global evasion + innate weapong guard = melee units missing 3/4 of their attacks because every damn unit has crazy evasion.

Also, nice thought about base move revamp. Removing move+2 and move+3 and leaving the other stuff as it is may also be useful... but let's see what Philsov thinks.

Squires not being able to use Shields never made sense either.

I said EVERY class should be allowed to use a Shield.

Weapon Guard numbers are already getting fairly slashed because everything gets it innate.

Unless C-EVs are buffed a good deal, Global Evasion means that stat stacks on the evasion chain far less per attack, as a 20% C-EV only covers 10% of frontal hits, etc.  

Shields are getting their evasion rates cut due to innate Weapon Guard as well, Philsov said.  As are mantles.

So, shittier number + shittier number + shittier number + shittier number = not a godlike evasion stat.

Currently, Abandon + Elf Mantle probably generates more evasion in current 1.3 than a full stack of evasion equipment + Weapon Guard + C-EV would under philsov's setup due to all the slashed numbers.  I mean, just those two things, and you have 50% Physical Evasion and Magic Evasion!
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 11, 2009, 11:18:06 pm
My concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

Also, I forgot to say that I totally agree with you about Hamedo being as broken (if not more in a lot of situations) as Blade Grasp.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 11, 2009, 11:29:55 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"My concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

He's making those numbers SMALLER, not LARGER.  Direct opposite of buffing.  More is stacking, but those numbers are on the whole smaller.  It just means everything can at least kind-of evade.

Magic is kind of why I want Shields on everything.

A physical class can throw on Concentrate if it really wants to and hit all the time, or pour on tons of power and swing two or three times to break evasion and oneshot the evading bastard.

Magic can't do either, but seems a lot better with highly slashed move stats.  Shields on everything means everything has the option to have some kind of M-EV without using a mantle.  Buff the M-EVs some (maybe, I don't know the exact M-EV values on Shields obviously), and lower P-EV to come in line with innate Weapon Guard and his new C-EV setup.  Tada!  Evadable magic.

Plus, it makes Shields a lot better by making them more widely available.  Equip Shield is hard to justify unless you're outright negating something with Ice Shield or Flame Shield oftentimes, and I actually found myself using a Two Hand only weapon or the ability Two Hands on anything that naturally equipped Shields in the original 1.3, unless using Maintenance, outright negating an element, or using lolbrokeAbandon.

Plus, if I'm remembering how evasion in FFT stacks properly, four mediocre numbers will generally be less evasion than Elf Mantle + Abandon.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Also, I forgot to say that I totally agree with you about Hamedo being as broken (if not more in a lot of situations) as Blade Grasp.

I find Hamedo broke since it essentially gives free turns and allows exploitation of the AI, and I don't see AI exploitation as something the word "Tactics" should embody outside of a hardcore difficulty hack.

Blade Grasp and Abandon I find are broken for the exact same reasons, they allow monstrous evasion.  I'm surprised Abandon lasted this long, honestly, because it makes even a couple small evasion boosts pretty significant.  And again, high-tier Mantle + Abandon or high-tier Shield + Abandon equals essentially what Blade Grasp would be capable of in 1.3, except unable to block Jumps or Guns.



...This reminds me.

Philsov.  Is it possible to make Jump evadable when not using a Spear, but 100% accurate when you are?  That'd be perfect imo, giving Lancers the advantage of always hitting while making Jump more useful for other classes and making Equip Spear like a pseudo-Concentrate for Jump.
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Post by: Asmo X on October 12, 2009, 12:35:30 am
People act like Lancers would automatically be shit because they can only jump as hard as everyone else. Doesn't a spear having 2 range seem like a pretty big advantage under this new setup?

Also, the value of lowering movement is an absolute measurement. It was shit before because any unit could reach almost any other unit and positioning meant nothing. With this setup you avoid that even though move+2 supposedly becomes the new Move+3.

I agree with basically all of the proposed hacks. In fact I told Arch he should have included many of them in the original 1.3 if his goal was to keep the game true to the original. Oracle could get Drain back since its damage is capped at 250 or something.

The brave/faith thing is something I could go either way on. I don't like that there are attacks that factor in brave. I don't like it that you get nothing worthwhile from having low brave. The whole Brave/Faith system is really fucking stupid if you ask me. I don't like the Zodiac system either. On the other hand, one of the worst things about those mediator skills is that they raised the stats permanently and now that's gone. So if you want the goal of staying true to the original game, now would be the time to stick those skills back in without it being ridiculous.

The potion hack is something Arch and I discussed before and it might not work. Sephirot suggests 80-85% for X-potion. He must have been fucking high as a kite when he wrote that. It's almost HP restore every time your reaction goes off. 50% would be too high. The problem is that you only get a decent spread for all 3 potions when x-potion is brokenly powerful. If you make the % low you are faced with cramming 2 other potion levels below. If they are all close to one another it's meaningless. If they aren't then your lowest potion is going to do some negligible amount of healing. If you want %-based healing from potions, you only need one potion. It will scale with your HP anyway so why do we need more than 1?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Asmo X on October 12, 2009, 01:11:52 am
Quote from: "philsov"possibly making Two Swords and Two hands no longer innate to samu/ninja.  

Yes please.

Edit: It's a shame we can't just have set speed for all characters for the whole game. That way magic would have some constistency.
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Post by: Aquilae on October 12, 2009, 03:02:04 am
Remove Teleport, and set 3 Move to all units. Teleport is basically 70% Move + 3 and ignores terrain, which is pretty great if you ask me. If you want to keep it remove the ability to move beyond your normal movement range.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on October 12, 2009, 03:29:30 am
Alternatively you could ASM hack it so that every extra space you try adds a 20% chance to fail instead of a 10% chance to fail.
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Post by: Asmo X on October 12, 2009, 11:45:14 am
It's not just lateral movement. People always seem to forget the fact that it ignores obstacles and height variations. Its just an incredibly stupid, broken move for a patch that wants to make movement and position mean something
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Post by: SolidSnakeDog on October 12, 2009, 12:13:52 pm
Maybe make it so you always has a small chance to miss wen moving by 1-3 panels. (About 20% or something...)
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 12, 2009, 12:31:16 pm
I liked the idea of making teleport similar to the Defend support command, that way you could either act or teleport, but not both, on any given round. Combine this with some ASM hacks to remove the ability to teleport beyond your movement and you have a useful ability to sacrifice your action in order to bypass obstacles or enemies within your normal movement range. Also, if this reworked teleport is changed to be a support ability, then the Fly movement ability would finally see some use, because A) it achives the same thing without taking up a support slot, and B) it doesn't require the sacrifice of an action, ballanced by C) since it takes a move slot, unlike this hypothetical teleport, you cannot also throw Move +1/+2 on there, and are stuck with Base Move + shoes to increase range
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 12, 2009, 12:34:58 pm
Skip's idea about teleport isn't too bad. You may have a point there.

Also, I agree about potions Asmo! I totally forgot about Auto-potion. Yeah, leaving potion and Hi-potion at 30 and 70 would be fine. Then giving X-potion around 45% HP restore maybe? IDK if it's possible to ASM only X-potion =/
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Post by: philsov on October 12, 2009, 12:53:25 pm
Well, this topic exploded overnight.

Quotepretty much every other FF game that has a Shield slot allows Wizards to use Shields, so why not in FFT?

???

FF1 = only thing mages got was Buckler.  
FF2 = no class system
FF3 = dual-weilding shields!
FF4 = big negative
FF5 = big negative
FF6 = yes
FF7 = no shield slot
FF8 = no shield slot
FF9 = no shield slot
FF10 = wristband/armlet/shield's the only armor slot
FF12 = no class system

Sorry, there is no precedent here.

QuoteIt just seems wrong for Lancers to not be the best with their own skillset

The same can be said for squires, geomancers and knights, regrettably.  Imo, they still are -- no other class has the speed and the PA, save maybe ninja, but a ninja with jump is paying for it with the skillset overlap.

QuoteI don't think the defensive Spells need a range nerf, myself. Making all the "standard" magic 3 range seems fine, as it keeps the mage classes on equal footing

But cure/raise/esuna are still 3 range, and holy is 4.  I really don't see a problem with it.

Quote...Samurais better suited for using Equip Spear most of the time...

Until Jav II katanas keep a steady ~30% higher WP over spears, so the benefits of attack up match equip spear.  Weird thing to note, though... never thought of that combo.

QuoteMaybe making them range 6... because if I have a knight with 2 move and the enemy has a chemist with 2 move and a gun, I'll be chasing him for the whole battle, and even if I had 3 move he'd still get around 6 hits before I get to him.

Were the chemist human-controlled, yes, that'd be an issue.  However the AI is not that clever.  You'll be fine.  But 6 does work.

Quote@ Lancers and Jump: Lancers / Spear wielding units should still have a Jump boost. Would you say it's fair that a Geomancer or a Knight has the same jumping power as a Lancer? Makes them less useful/unique

Speed.  Jump on a 100 SPM unit suuuucks.

QuoteAlso, quick thought. Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the current move ranges (3-4), and take out Move +2 and Move +3, instead of reducing move and taking out Move +3? With an average of 2 Move, Move +2 becomes the equivalent of Move +3 because it doubles a character's range. Granted, the double is smaller, but every move space matters so much more when you get so many of them, meaning Move +2 would still outclass things. Base 3 move with Move +1 available on Thieves would right this easily, as it's far easier to compete against Move +1 for a Movement Ability slot when every unit has ~3 Move than it is to compete with Move +2 when every unit only has ~2 Move. The results are mostly the same, yet other Movement skills (such as Move-HP UP) actually *are* viable, instead of just looking better on paper.

Possibly, but then Fly(!) would become the movement ability of choice, due to its ability to bypass enemy units/obstacles. It's tweedledee to tweedledum.  Under the current scheme Fly and Move+2 have equal footing, and both are only found on the bard and dancer trees... meaning under non-grind circumstance the player won't access them until at least middle chapter 3.

QuoteUnless C-EVs are buffed a good deal, Global Evasion means that stat stacks on the evasion chain far less per attack, as a 20% C-EV only covers 10% of frontal hits, etc.

Global evasion:
100% effectiveness on the front
50% effectiveness on the sides
25% effectiveness from behind

In order to make your 20% C.Ev effectively 10%, from the front, is if you're already rocking 50% evasion.

QuoteCurrently, Abandon + Elf Mantle probably generates more evasion in current 1.3 than a full stack of evasion equipment + Weapon Guard + C-EV would under philsov's setup due to all the slashed numbers.

Assumptions are baaaaaad.  See below.

QuotePlus, if I'm remembering how evasion in FFT stacks properly, four mediocre numbers will generally be less evasion than Elf Mantle + Abandon.

15 is mediocre, no?

15% weapon + 15% shield + 15% mantle + 15% C.Ev = 48% chance to be hit.  

edit:  15 is probably going to be the MAX amount of W.Ev present on any 1-handed item.  

QuoteMy concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

Noted, I can buff the M.Ev of shields to make them better.

QuoteIs it possible to make Jump evadable when not using a Spear, but 100% accurate when you are?

Theoretically, yes.  For the purpose of this project?  Not likely, unless someone else steps up as I'll have my hands full with event editing.  I know the tentative name is ASM'D, but I'm just using the hacks others have made up to this point.

QuoteOracle could get Drain back since its damage is capped at 250 or something.

Ooooh, forgot about that hack.  Agreed.  It'll be a bit OP at queklain but he's a blip in the bigger picture.

QuoteThe problem is that you only get a decent spread for all 3 potions when x-potion is brokenly powerful. If you make the % low you are faced with cramming 2 other potion levels below. If they are all close to one another it's meaningless. If they aren't then your lowest potion is going to do some negligible amount of healing. If you want %-based healing from potions, you only need one potion. It will scale with your HP anyway so why do we need more than 1?

Well the kicker is the ASM hack will do either a set amount or a %, depending on which is higher... so they can be capped from either or both ends -- meaning we can keep the old 30/70/150 (maybe even ratchet to 20/50/120) scheme but also make them each 30% health.  There's still some minor scaling if you're willing to pay for it, but if not handy potion is all you need.

And this is just personally but I never used potions to directly heal -- I just stick to phoenix down and auto-potion...  

QuoteIDK if it's possible to ASM only X-potion =/

I'd rather have some fun with this and make sure I ASM potion for the sake of the AI and auto-potion.  Heck, I can make potion the highest % healing and leave hi-pot/x-pot lower and thus absolutes instead.

Quotet's a shame we can't just have set speed for all characters for the whole game. That way magic would have some constistency.

I can rework speed growth to make the gap less of a disparity throughout the game.  In fact I probably will.
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 12, 2009, 03:10:23 pm
Back in the infancy of 1.3 an idea was thrown about to make Teleport, Unique to Only Time Mages, and give them 0 Move, and remove their ability to equip Shoes. This will only give them +1 or +2 Move, 2 Move at most, this will do a number of things... this will curb the "Carrier" status of the Time Mage, with itself being slightly unweildy, and maybe people will look to the other mage classes.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 12, 2009, 04:04:09 pm
Wow, last time I post late at night unless heavily proofreading and cross referencing of Wikipedia occur.

Ass covering time.  Hopefully I've read through this and made sure my information is correct this time, rofl.

Quote from: "philsov"Well, this topic exploded overnight.

FF1 = only thing mages got was Buckler.  
FF2 = no class system
FF3 = dual-weilding shields!
FF4 = big negative
FF5 = big negative
FF6 = yes

Sorry, no precedent here.[/quote]

I only quote this part because I said "before FFT" and "that has a Shield slot", which pretty much puts us looking at the NES days.

I would say II doesn't matter either, because as you said there's no class system, so there's no comparison.  But I can't believe I forgot FFIV / FFV.  I feel kinda retarded now.  I blame streaming Kaizo Mario World last night.  /bad excuse

So it's 2.5 to 2.5.  I still doesn't seem unreasonable to me, as Equip Shield is incredibly niche and the classes that would get a buff from a Shield are the ones who probably wouldn't be getting the best Weapon Guard ratings anyway (Mages, as pretty much every physical class besides Monk / Samurai / Ninja can use Shields, and only one of the three would even want too).

Though still.  You corrected me and never actually gave your thoughts on the matter.

What are they?

Quote from: "philsov"The same can be said for squires, geomancers and knights, regrettably.  Imo, they still are -- no other class has the speed and the PA, save maybe ninja, but a ninja with jump is paying for it with the skillset overlap.

There's one problem with this.

Many classes get to use clothes and hats.  Lancers do not.

This means while they're slow initially, slapping on a Thief Hat and a Power Sleeve or something leaves their stats right up their with Lancers, whereas Lancers really only get rare equipment and Carabini Mail to buff their stats up with.

+PA to Spears would be a cool way to compensate for this too, if you don't want to try doing the other thing.  Until I got Javelin II, I actually noticed my Oracle doing more Two Hands Stick damage than my Lancer did with its equivalent Two Hands Spear, which struck me as silly.

Quote from: "philsov"But cure/raise/esuna are still 3 range, and holy is 4.  I really don't see a problem with it.

I just don't see a reason to debuff stuff like Protect and Shell.  The guys casting those aren't going to be very mobile anymore unless they're sporting Rubber Costumes with Move +2 (unless you're removing the Move +1 from Rubber Costume as well), so that'd make them hard-pressed to keep up and get those Spells off once the melee's started.  Which, with lowered move making it take longer for the melees to start, is far more important than it was before.

I just realized how silly Meteor is going to be under these new circumstances, unless its getting Holy-like treatment.  Big AoE, but it almost hits the caster and the caster is *still* going to be midcharged by whatever it targeted most likely.  xD;

Quote from: "philsov"Until Jav II katanas keep a steady ~30% higher WP over spears, so the benefits of attack up match equip spear.  Weird thing to note, though... never thought of that combo.

And again.  Doesn't that seem silly?  That obviously makes Equip Spear > Attack UP since you get the same benefits and an extra panel range.  On a class you wanted to take the innate away from because of Attack UP.  Similar to my whole problem with Jump being 3/2 straight, I think it's silly that a class' best weapon is from another class, and the other class using its innate (Two Hands) is probably better than them with it anyway.  It really devalues the physical Samurai unless you want to give up some HP (a rather noticeable amount, iirc) and (I think?) some PA (may be even, I forget) for some of the supporting Draw Outs instead of using Jump, which I honestly feel is a terrible shame.  Which is why I think these Katanas need a buff to a better formula.

Or elements.

Or some procs.

Or something.

I can't think of a single goddamn reason to ever use a Katana as a melee weapon over something else unless I'm using a male Samurai mage... which makes no goddamn sense, imo.

Quote from: "philsov"Were the chemist human-controlled, yes, that'd be an issue.  However the AI is not that clever.  You'll be fine.  But 6 does work.

Your comparison just proves that Guns would be broke.

For the player.

Something doesn't need to be broke for the computer for it to be broke.  What's the point in playing if a bunch of human controlled Chemists can pretend this is vanilla all over again?

*vaguely used overexaggeration, sure, but it gets the point across I think*

This issue needs to be resolved in some way.  6 range may do it, but I was going to be more in favor of 5.  Testing would be needed, I suppose.

Quote from: "philsov"Possibly, but then Fly(!) would become the movement ability of choice, due to its ability to bypass enemy units/obstacles. It's tweedledee to tweedledum.  Under the current scheme Fly and Move+2 have equal footing, and both are only found on the bard and dancer trees... meaning under non-grind circumstance the player won't access them until at least middle chapter 3.

I honestly wouldn't use Fly under the current system that much.

It lets me get behind people, but so does Move +2.  It lets me ignore obstacles (which is admittedly a huge deal in this), but things with 4 Move are going to be outrunning my 2 Move Flier most of the time.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I'd be using Fly in this hack unless on a mage.  And I used Fly quite a few times in 1.3 on my non-Teleporting units, so that's saying something for me.

With Base 3 Move, Fly indeed becomes better than Move +1, but units are mobile enough to keep gaps open for a good deal of time, meaning things such as Move-HP UP and etc are still somewhat viable.

IDK.  2 Move just leaves me seeing Move +X still being the move of choice in most cases, which seems to defeat the entire purpose of lowering move besides making it easy to rush into their formation and make shit die turn 1.  I could say get rid of Fly, but then we're getting silly excessive.  That, and Fly just looks too awesome and silly to remove.

Quote from: "philsov"Global evasion:
100% effectiveness on the front
50% effectiveness on the sides
25% effectiveness from behind

In order to make your 20% C.Ev effectively 10%, from the front, is if you're already rocking 50% evasion.

Note to self: l2r.

Though I actually think that makes my case better, unless posting when I first wake up is just as bad as at night.  O.o

Quote from: "philsov"15 is mediocre, no?

15% weapon + 15% shield + 15% mantle + 15% C.Ev = 48% chance to be hit.  

edit:  15 is probably going to be the MAX amount of W.Ev present on any 1-handed item.

If Weapon Guard caps at 15% for non-Knight Swords (and I would also petition non-Katanas), then that 15% can't be a mediocre value since mediocre is relative to other possibilities, right?

That's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV, from what I can see.  Unless you intend to lower overall C-EV values, which is what I suspect, which could also push that into the higher level areas.  And since the concerns I was debating with him on stemmed from Mages with Shields, I don't think its unreasonable to say that the C-EV will generally not be a giant number for the classes that would benefit from this.  Except Thief, I suppose.   But we could deny Shields to just Thieves if it were really an issue, since that's one class vs an entire side of the job tree, but even then I've found Two Swords far better than chucking a Shield on anyway, as it usually is.  The computer always wins RNG battles because it's lucky as balls.

Compare this to Abandon + Elf Mantle, which nets you 50% straight Physical Evasion (2% more) and 50% M-EV, without even factoring your class in.  That was my point.  The original game lets you do retarded levels of evasion with a single item and a reaction command, so how is that less broken than an entire equipment stack that doesn't even protect your back beyond a Mantle and global C-EV, or even Blade Grasp (save the two things I noted before, but those are compensated for with monster M-EV potential)?

Quote from: "philsov"Theoretically, yes.  For the purpose of this project?  Not likely, unless someone else steps up as I'll have my hands full with event editing.  I know the tentative name is ASM'D, but I'm just using the hacks others have made up to this point.

I would see if you can get someone to do it then, honestly.  That seems like a really nice ASM hack to make Jump better for all and still give Equip Spear a place in the game on something other than Samurais... which, if my hopes come true, it'll be losing anyway because its place there is just stupid.

Quote from: "philsov"I'd rather have some fun with this and make sure I ASM potion for the sake of the AI and auto-potion.  Heck, I can make potion the highest % healing and leave hi-pot/x-pot lower and thus absolutes instead.

Why not just remove Hi-Potion and X-Potion and make Potion a 30 HP minimum, 30-50% maximum heal?  Keeps it useful early game while allowing a sort of scaling later on.  The price point on Potions (being essentially free after Chapter 1) shouldn't matter, since the AI also gets infinity Potions.

Quote from: "philsov"I can rework speed growth to make the gap less of a disparity throughout the game.  In fact I probably will.

Please do.  I hate not being able to use magic end-game.
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Post by: philsov on October 12, 2009, 04:49:46 pm
QuoteBack in the infancy of 1.3 an idea was thrown about to make Teleport, Unique to Only Time Mages, and give them 0 Move, and remove their ability to equip Shoes. This will only give them +1 or +2 Move, 2 Move at most, this will do a number of things... this will curb the "Carrier" status of the Time Mage, with itself being slightly unweildy, and maybe people will look to the other mage classes.

The only carrier aspect of time mage is the speed boost.  They have the worst HP, 2nd worst MA, and can't equip rods for max +MA nor sticks for max melee.  But, making teleport innate and equipping 2 move is really the same as making 2 move innate and equipping teleport, which, under the current teleport, is still too good imo.

QuoteThough still. You corrected me and never actually gave your thoughts on shields for all.

What are they?

That shields kick ass and if a class that can't equip shields wants to they can use up their support slot.  

QuoteWhat's the point in playing if a bunch of human controlled Chemists can pretend this is vanilla all over again?

Speed ruin, the fact that you already start out near a wall in the first place, and enemies with ranged abilities for starters.

QuoteThat's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV

mmm... more lowerish shield, but it works out the same.  Either way odds are abandon is going the way of the dodo anyways, because everyone is getting handed ~10-20% evasion between class, weapons, and far fewer backstabs.

QuoteWhy not just remove Hi-Potion and X-Potion

Because item is a single target, restorative skillset and having its only heal (neglecting special use elixirs) 30% is a bit... lackluster.  Having something do absolutely more, especially when battle skill/steal rear their ugly head, is welcome imo.  And 50% is too much, imo.  Turns AP into a poor man's damage split. I'll see if I can tinker with any of the Items, maybe I can turn x-potion into a neato ability (fire bomb!) instead :).
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 12, 2009, 05:01:20 pm
@ Potions: Bleh.. leave potions as they are now >_> They are ok.

@ Jump: evadable jump? *shivers* that's like.. the main pont of using jump.. ranged 100% physical attack that you can't see where is gonna land on the AT list. I wished we could make it appear in the AT list :(

@ Reduced move: hey.. I've been thinking that Summoning is already great, and very very useful in the early game (until CH3). With reduced move it's gonna get super OP. I always use Ifrit/Salamander + Fire rod until I get 108 Gems and then start using Leviathan. It's gonna rock too much with reduced move... but cross shaped summons like Fire1 will lose their purpose...
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 12, 2009, 05:12:17 pm
Quote from: "philsov"That shields kick ass and if a class that can't equip shields wants to they can use up their support slot.

Except that never happens unless you're outright negating something with an absorbing Shield, usually.  Seems like a stupid waste of a Support Ability in general, especially when you want to make an Equip Robe.

Quote from: "philsov"Speed ruin, the fact that you already start out near a wall in the first place, and enemies with ranged abilities for starters.

Speed Ruin requires them getting in range of me, when I can pop them and run back.  By the time they do, they've probably taken massive damage.  They can be healed, sure, but for every extra unit they have on their side supporting, I would (logically) have another supporting Chemist since I made the Chemist SCC comparison.  5 Guns, especially once Elemental Guns become possible, seems like they could start tearing things apart from afar in a player's hand and really leave the computer no way to fight back besides Elixirspam or high ground with Archers (assuming I don't just equip Arrow Guard or Auto Potion and lulz the Archer out).  It just seems like a really easy way to cheese the game.

Maybe the computer can fight back if they have their own equal power Guns and Auto Potion, but when you're fighting high power Guns and Auto Potion with high power Guns and Auto Potion, seems like a really big overcentralization problem.  Especially if you stick with the whole "Equip Gun also allows Robes" thing.  

I'd actually see this as another reason to allow universal shields, since if the CPU can be given Elemental absorbing Shields on key units without needing to become underpowered from having no Support command, this problem is curbed, especially since I also suggested making Guns Two Hands only so Shield + Gun is impossible.

Quote from: "philsov"That's max Weapon Guard + Mid level (?) Shield + current Wizard Mantle + Moderate C-EV

mmm... more lowerish shield, but it works out the same.  Either way odds are abandon is going the way of the dodo anyways, because everyone is getting handed ~10-20% evasion between class, weapons, and far fewer backstabs.[/quote]

I was assuming a debuffed Shield like I would see in this hack, but it may still be a bit lower end.

Abandon definitely needs to go.  Even in standard 1.3 I'd say it needs to go because it can easily make non-100% moves into a joke with a single item slot use, and no Br dependency.

Quote from: "philsov"Because item is a single target, restorative skillset and having its only heal (neglecting special use elixirs) 30% is a bit... lackluster.  Having something do absolutely more, especially when battle skill/steal rear their ugly head, is welcome imo.  And 50% is too much, imo.  Turns AP into a poor man's damage split. I'll see if I can tinker with any of the Items, maybe I can turn x-potion into a neato ability (fire bomb!) instead :).

I wouldn't make offensive Items, personally.  That seems like its stepping on the toes of Oracle / Ninja, depending on what kind of offense the Item is doing (raw damage or status).  Giving it offense makes it very "all-in-one", which both steps on the toes of the two previous job abilities, and completely retcons a major part of the use White Magic has (damage in addition to healing).  That, and regular 1.3 already proves it's one of the best secondaries you can throw on since it can let you recover from just about any bad situation with some good CT manipulation.  And Chemists get Guns and innate Throw Item, so even they don't need their primary skillset more flexible.  I don't think that it needs random ways of having offensive capabilities.

So.  Maybe make Potion 30 or 40(?)%, Hi-Potion 70, and X-Potion 150.  40% makes Potion heal more than Hi-Potion and X-Potion on high-HP units (the ones the CPU will probably be using Auto Potion on the most), while making X-Potion better on the lower HP ones (who will probably be using Item or Magic to heal instead of the reaction command).  Hi-Potion's just kind of there for the mid-game, but this makes Auto Potion far more useful for the CPU and a bit harder for the player to just slap on all 5 units without any regard as to what they are to try and tank everything, due to the fact Potion and X-Potion can beat each other out on what they're healing depending.

I'd be in favor of nuking all the status-healing Items besides Remedy and Holy Water (they never get used anyway), but I have no clue what to put in their place.  Would you be able to use the ability slots nuking those frees up to make an Equip Robe as a separate ability?  They're useless, and unlike stuff like Blind, they can't be buffed without being made into Throw 2.0 abilities anyway, so if you can kill them and use their space to make some nifty new abilities (like Equip Robe), that'd seem like the best solution, imo.

Though I'm still not seeing the problem with everything having Shield access regardless.  Everything that can equip Shields now is melee, meaning they're the ones who'll probably have the best C-EV and W-EV, so the benefit the classes who can't equip Shields currently would gain is far less than classes who can already equip them, save for Thief and maybe Ninja.  But I don't see why a Ninja would use a Shield besides for the niche things like blocking Element X anyway.
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Post by: philsov on October 12, 2009, 05:35:23 pm
Quote@ Potions: Bleh.. leave potions as they are now >_> They are ok.

I actually think AP is a broken reaction ability, in terms of human/AI discrepancy and its power.  Plus removing all potions from stock and only having x-pots is really... counter-intuitive.

QuoteSpeed Ruin requires them getting in range of me,

knight with move +1 gets in range.  3 movement, 3 range ability.  Slowed gunner, knight gets double turn, proceeds to hack and slash.

QuoteExcept that never happens unless you're outright negating something with an absorbing Shield, usually. Seems like a stupid waste of a Support Ability in general, especially when you want to make an Equip Robe.

I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.  And... elemental shields aren't all that hot because they also sport an elemental weakness.  Unless you're rocking fire shield + magic ring or ice shield + rubber shoes, it's a two-way street.  I learned this the hard way when the colliery engineer one-shot me with bolt1.

QuoteI'd actually see this as another reason to allow universal shields

Everyone is -already- getting 10-20% evasion.  Giving them all 10-20 more (or even MORE) basically requires all melee to have concentrate.  

Quoteguns guns guns just seems like a really easy way to cheese the game.

Possibly.  I can brew up a video sometime this week about that.

QuoteEverything that can equip Shields now is melee, meaning they're the ones who'll probably have the best C-EV and W-EV,

remember what I said about assumptions?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 12, 2009, 05:55:13 pm
I'm agains giving shields to every unit. Semi-forcing Concentrate on all melee units is bad... but maybe as bad as needing Short Charge as the game stands now...

Totally in favor of removing every status-healing items except Remedy and Holy Water. Obviously allowing Remedy to be bought earlier (IDK when it's available though...).

Quote from: "Phil"I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.
I always do the same. That + Mantle + cheap Weapon Guard = very good early EV setup :) I told you we played in a similar style!
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 12, 2009, 05:58:17 pm
Quote from: "philsov"I actually think AP is a broken reaction ability, in terms of human/AI discrepancy and its power.  Plus removing all potions from stock and only having x-pots is really... counter-intuitive.

Agreed here.  It's not as broken late game, but definitely agree nonetheless.

Hamedo too, imo.

Quote from: "philsov"knight with move +1 gets in range.  3 movement, 3 range ability.  Slowed gunner, knight gets double turn, proceeds to hack and slash.

I thought the idea was to get away from people always using Move +X?

Quote from: "philsov"I give all my mage-types equip shield through mid-game, until short charge becomes necessary.  And... elemental shields aren't all that hot because they also sport an elemental weakness.  Unless you're rocking fire shield + magic ring or ice shield + rubber shoes, it's a two-way street.  I learned this the hard way when the colliery engineer one-shot me with bolt1.

Ice Shield has that big weakness, yes.  Flame Shield is weak to lolwater though, which doesn't appear often.

I've never used Equip Shield.  I found Magic Attack UP more useful and more in-the-way, most of the time.  Though early on you do need to get closer and Robes / Hats leave you a lot more fragile than they do later, so I suppose its a bit more useful then.

Quote from: "philsov"Everyone is -already- getting 10-20% evasion.  Giving them all 10-20 more (or even MORE) basically requires all melee to have concentrate.

Hm.

I would again say lolAbandon, but you said you're (rightly) killing that pile of shit.  

Odd idea:  Allow Shields, and make the way C-EV is globalized apply also to Shields Physical Evasion and Weapon Guard?

That seems cool, as it makes side attacks worth something (as Weapon Guard currently covers side and front 100%, which kind of honestly doesn't make sense as it's harder to guard from the side than from the front), and makes universal Shields a potential option without the whole omgevasionstack issue (which late game I can see happening, now that I sit and think a bit on it).

Thoughts?  I really like that kind of idea, as I've never understood how Shields and Weapon Guard even logically can block the front and sides equally.

Quote from: "philsov"Possibly.  I can brew up a video sometime this week about that.

Okay.

Quote from: "philsov"remember what I said about assumptions?

Wow.  For some reason I remembered Rods and Sticks as having a lot less W-EV.  Meh.  I'm half right, mages aren't C-EV monsters like physical classes are.  P=
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 12, 2009, 07:05:40 pm
Er... I reckon guns are still semi-rape with 6 range. How about make them avadable with Arrow Guard? Making arrow guard into "Projectile guard" or something like that... maybe even make it evade "Throw"
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Post by: Archael on October 12, 2009, 07:53:32 pm
Refute / Preach are awesome
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Post by: Asmo X on October 13, 2009, 10:05:02 am
Yeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons
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Post by: MiKeMiTchi on October 13, 2009, 10:42:46 am
Wow. Quality posts. I have to read them one by one to understand them.

QuoteYeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons

Yeah, I think their ranged should be debuffed.

What about the Axes? I think they still need some buffing.

For the Mediator Skills,
I like the new ones, but give em some more usefulness, pleeease?

If only the BR\FA mod weren't permanent.
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Post by: philsov on October 13, 2009, 11:32:13 am
QuoteI thought the idea was to get away from people always using Move +X?

ha, nah.  Were that the case I'd need a full row of ASM buffs to the other movements, or I'd simply remove the move+x's from the game.  What I'm trying to do is reduce both the relative movement possible (8 movement ninjas versus 3 movement monks, e.g.) and the absolute movement/range for all units/abilities.  The first is getting accomplished by the removal of move +3 and teleport with move +2 becoming more out of reach.  The latter is getting accomplished with an across the board slash to all movements and ranged abilities.

QuoteOdd idea: make the way C-EV is globalized apply also to Shields Physical Evasion and Weapon Guard?

I'll throw it on the "if I can get someone else to do hack it" pile.  But shields for all is not going to happen.  If I do that then there's no point in weapon guard for all, as having both of these evasions present is simply too good unless I neuter the everliving crap out of shields, which I have no desire to do.

QuoteYeah to tell you the truth I was wondering about guns and longbows. Might want to drop the range on some of these weapons

guns to 6 and bows to 4 sound good?

QuoteWhat about the Axes? I think they still need some buffing.

They're getting a new formula for much steadier but still slightly random damage.  

QuoteFor the Mediator Skills,
I like the new ones, but give em some more usefulness, pleeease?

If only the BR\FA mod weren't permanent.

It doesn't have to be permanent.  That's the point of this poll.  We can re-introduce the old skills (maybe alter them to +/- 5 Br/Fa instead of 5 raisings and 20 lowerings) since they'll last only in that battle, but the catch is I don't think there's enough free ability space to re-introduce those old skills AND keep the new ones.  But I'll see what I can do about talk skill in general... atm negotiate and death sentence aren't seeing much use.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 13, 2009, 01:04:34 pm
Quoteguns to 6 and bows to 4 sound good?
Yeah, and late game bows would get 5, right? Also, how are you gonna handle the null range of x-bows, bows and guns? Are Harps and books staying the same? (I don't think they need to change...)

QuoteIt doesn't have to be permanent. That's the point of this poll. We can re-introduce the old skills (maybe alter them to +/- 5 Br/Fa instead of 5 raisings and 20 lowerings) since they'll last only in that battle, but the catch is I don't think there's enough free ability space to re-introduce those old skills AND keep the new ones. But I'll see what I can do about talk skill in general... atm negotiate and death sentence aren't seeing much use.
Kill negotiate and Death Sentence then. Also, if you killed all the status restorative items except Remedy and Holy Water, will that do the trick? You can always make those items into "Hero Drink" (+10 Br)  and "Terror Serum" (-10 Br) or whatever, and use the slots of Death Sentence and Negotiate to re-introduce the Fa modifier skills.
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Post by: philsov on October 13, 2009, 08:59:43 pm
QuoteYeah, and late game bows would get 5, right? Also, how are you gonna handle the null range of x-bows, bows and guns? Are Harps and books staying the same? (I don't think they need to change...)

Not concerned with their null range.  Harps/books are staying the same.  Still undecided on 5 range longbows at late game.

QuoteAlso, if you killed all the status restorative items except Remedy and Holy Water, will that do the trick?

Nope.  Item's basically on its own little table.  I can import a very limited number of formula into item (namely, anything which can stand its X and Y value to be zero), but that would only serve to diversify Item itself... which, might be fun to dick around with, but the sort of thing you're proposing is beyond my current capacity.  

Formulas that actually do work with Item:

01 = 1 * WP damage!
02 = WP*WP damage with 25% chance to cast ability/spell (rigging up potion to cast holy is pretty funny when combined with auto-potion!)
03 = WP*WP damage
04 = weak faith-based ice damage
05 = WP*WP damage, 25% chance to inflict status off status table
06 = drain WP*WP damage
07 = Heal WP*WP
09+ = MA% chance to inflict status/quick/ct00/all health but 1/all MP damage (ew)
14 = Golem (with some pretty funky success #'s)
1E/1F = single-target single-hit with truth or untruth formula (quadratic MA!) damage (440 damage from a mage at level 99)
20 = 0 damage, 25% status proc
24 = elemental formula, [PA / 2] * MA damage + status proc
25 = weapon strike
2D = PA * WP, 100% status
31 = [PA/2] * PA damage
32 = PA*3 damage
33 = PA% chance to inflict (ew)
38 = 100% status infliction
3C = Wish (heal 40%, receive 20% damage)
3E = 100% hp-1 damage (OP!)
43 = Shock (max hp - cur hp damage)
44 = damage HP = current MP (kinda cool, imo, but OP for the player at zodiacs)
45 = Climhazard (targets max - current) damage
52 = self descruct (complete with 100% status) -- imagine auto-potion THEN.
60 = truth formula + 6.25% status
63 = SP*WP damage (throw)

Oh, and while I'm biting off far more than I can chew, I'd like to change Dash, and with it... counter tackle!  What could we warp it into...
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Post by: SilvasRuin on October 14, 2009, 01:47:04 am
Counter Flare for things like Behemoths and Ahrimans that traditionally have some sort of nasty counter.
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Post by: FFMaster on October 14, 2009, 02:04:34 am
I can see Concentrate being the Support ability of choice for this. Well, for the physical attackers anyway.

Brave/Faith modding is really strong at 20. A couple of Threatens = useless unit for 10 rounds... maybe at 10, it would be more manageable...

If people want both old and new skills, you could use some of the blank spots for skills, not need to choose one or the other. Just hex edit the animations you want.
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Post by: philsov on October 14, 2009, 11:51:39 am
QuoteIf people want both old and new skills, you could use some of the blank spots for skills, not need to choose one or the other. Just hex edit the animations you want.

Well most of the blanks are used for custom skills as is.  There -might- be two blanks atm, else I'll have to cut something/consolidate.  If negotiate and death sentence are going away, that's all the space we need imo!  Though, yes, I was considering 10 Fa/Br +/- per application.

QuoteCounter Flare for things like Behemoths and Ahrimans that traditionally have some sort of nasty counter.

Hm.  A magical-type counter would be kinda cool... I'd prefer it be basic-level for humans, though.  Counter Poison, perhaps...
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 14, 2009, 01:03:28 pm
ideas

-swap dash and throw stone, buff throw stone to behave more like the lore/blue magic spell (light damage + either berserk or confuse, forget which it inficts right now), a physical damage counter plus status infliction in melee and at medium range

-counter spin, when hit, trigger spin fist, an AoE counter could be pretty cool, alternatively, replace with counter summon, that attempts to non-charge  summon odin at the attacker (a reference to the way the odin summon randomly appears in some games to automatically dispatch enemies without you having to personally summon him)

-magic break, if hit while charging a spell, cancel the charging status on self and heal a large amount of hp (possibly 100%?)
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 14, 2009, 02:20:51 pm
Counter summon sounds way OP. Magic break looks like it could be highly abusable. Counter throw stone doesn't sound that bad... but confuse and berserk are too good in most situations. Maaaaaaybe if they were 25% procs, but IDK. Counter spin sounds fine, be it 0 height tolerance (1 at most) and hits enemies and allies too. Not bad Skip.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 14, 2009, 02:43:49 pm
well, stone is a random proc, and only inficts one status, i just don't remember if that status is berserk or confuse. As for the abuseableness of magic break, you have to use TWO actions to achive what a direct healing abiliy could do in one, and if you try and set it up so that you hit multiple casters with say spin fist, you've still used up many unit actions to basicly cast moogle, I don't see magic break as being abusable.
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Post by: Wasabi on October 14, 2009, 03:55:13 pm
"Stone" inflicted confuse in FFVI. It was physical damage, but giving it Dash's random damage formula is a nifty proposal.

Counter Summon Odin sounds cool for boss battles. If a Gilgamesh boss sprite were made I can imagine him using it. But that's a different discussion under a seemingly different project of FFT.
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Post by: MiKeMiTchi on October 14, 2009, 08:28:30 pm
QuoteJump increase to 3/2 regardless of weapon equipped
Broken/stolen items can be bought back at the fur shop
Defending reduces physical damage by 25%
Wall reduces all damage to 1
Poison/Regen damage/healing effect capped at 999 health
Soldier office can rename anyone
Undead takes 25% damage from Phoenix Down
Equip Xbow = Equip Xbow or Longbow
Equip Gun = equip guns or Robes
Equip Sword = equip swords or Knight sword
Equip axe = equip axes or flails
Potion family now heals %X health (unknown how high, atm)
Remove permanent effects of Br/Fa modication (see poll) + bring back/buff praise/preach/threaten/foxbird/etc
Weapon Guard evade for all (shields/mantles re-adjusted)
Knight swords become PA*WP (ignoring Br)
Axes/Flails get new formula of ((0 + (1..PA)) + PA) * WP. (WP to be adjusted)
Global Class-evade

Love them!
I guess I have to read the whole post..
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 01:11:32 pm
counter throw stone I feel is stepping on counter flood's toes too much, with the light-med damage and 25% status.  Were status a part of this counter I'd prefer it be 100%, which limits it to the lower statuses like blind and poison.  

counter spin fist sounds really awesome.  I'd need to disable the ally-hit aspect of it to make it less of a liability, not to mention axe  potential rape-box tactics.  but awesome nonetheless.  I'll probably go with it, or something very similar.

counter odin sounds too random for tastes. Br% chance for X% chance to kill?

magic break I doubt would see much use.  A counter that cancels your incoming action?

Edit: Initial post updated to include proposed evasion figures.  Shields lost 5% P.Ev, given 5% M.Ev.  Mantles lost about that much.  Weapons are based on class, with axes scaling slightly.  Class evasion a function of armor type and physical ability.  

Edit2:  Proposed changes to Item skillset:
Potion now heals 30 HP or 30% max health, whichever is more
Hi-Pot now heals 60 HP or 30% max health, whichever is more.
X-Pot now heals 100 HP or 30% max health, whichever is more.  

Status-healing items consolidated, Item actually given something offensive(!) to do.

??? - deals [MA/2] * MA damage, non elemental
??? - inflicts target with Poison and Haste
??? - inflicts target with Blind and Regen
??? - inflicts target with Slow and Protect

Though I have no clue how well the AI can cope with them.  Playtesting will be required.

Edit3:

HOLY HELL.  There's a lot of text to wade through for script/event editing :(.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 02:33:00 pm
I don't like the one that deals damage.  It's an interesting idea but I still feel it Item is already good enough to not need it.

The other three, even though I was initially opposed to them, seem okay since they're very double-edged.  The first one I would say depends a lot on how you're altering Speed growth, though, since a Haste status means far less on lower speed units in terms of how many extra turns they get... an Item giving haste with current 1.3 Speed potential would be silly imo, but I know you said you're lowering Speeds to some degree.  The question is really "how much?", I suppose.
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 03:11:50 pm
QuoteThe question is really "how much?", I suppose.

Short charge becomes near vital at... around 9 speed/mid chapter 3, correct?  Then speed growths will be altered to hit 8 Sp at level 70 or so with the 100 SPM classes.  Currently that point is level 35, so growths will be halved, or more specifically altered so their effects are halved.  

Note that some spells' CTRs are balanced under the different speed scheme, so some spells may actually get an increase in CTR.  Suimmon magic, I'm looking at you.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 03:58:21 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteThe question is really "how much?", I suppose.

Short charge becomes near vital at... around 9 speed/mid chapter 3, correct?  Then speed growths will be altered to hit 8 Sp at level 70 or so with the 100 SPM classes.  Currently that point is level 35, so growths will be halved, or more specifically altered so their effects are halved.  

Note that some spells' CTRs are balanced under the different speed scheme, so some spells may actually get an increase in CTR.  Suimmon magic, I'm looking at you.

My main question now is, what about Daggers / Thief Hat (I would include Secret Clothes, but those are rare enough to leave at Speed +2 I think)?

I remember having a 15 Speed Thief via Two Swords Daggers / Thief Hat / Sprint Shoes before Level 30, when everyone else was around ~8 Speed.

Since you're halving Speed growths, will the amount of items that give bonus Speed points also be reduced to compensate for stuff like the above?

Namely, I'm looking at Daggers / Sasuke Knives / second Thief Hat Speed Point.  I love them in regular 1.3, but in this version with lowered base Speeds, I'd think they may need to go in trade for something else to still keep them good.
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Post by: Archael on October 15, 2009, 04:23:03 pm
counter tackle should be - counter throw

where the user counters any attack with throw stone instead of dash, knocking the character back 100%, trigger-abable from range

yeah there's my idea
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 04:48:09 pm
QuoteI remember having a 15 Speed Thief via Two Swords Daggers / Thief Hat / Sprint Shoes before Level 30, when everyone else was around ~8 Speed.

Lies.  Pure thief (highest sp growth) gets to 10 Sp at level 33.  :p  And thief hat at level 30?  how the hell did you swing that?

either way, yes, it's something that does need to be addressed.  Probably give daggers a 25% for nasty status effect, and make sure to strip the spell edge from it's Don't Act proc (!).  Or prevent them from being dual-weld, despite thematic wtf-ness.  Thief hat will probably be toned down to 1 sp, with more HP to compensate, maybe even shift it's DA/DM immunity over to black hood.  Sasuke knives don't need to be +sp at all imo.  Secret clothes are rare, 2 speed is fine.

Quotecounter tackle should be - counter throw

where the user counters any attack with throw stone instead of dash, knocking the character back 100%, trigger-abable from range

yeah there's my idea

Nah.  Much like counter tackle back when dash was 100% knockback, all it seemed to do was invite another melee attack >_>.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 05:11:45 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Lies.  Pure thief (highest sp growth) gets to 10 Sp at level 33.  :p  And thief hat at level 30?  how the hell did you swing that?

Might've been low 30s.  It was around Izlude so I don't remember my exact Level.  Or it might've been 14 Speed.  I did that part of the game a good time ago, and all I know is that I was almost literally twice everything's Speed.

Regular 1.3, the guy at the Goland Coal City fight (Mediator) had a Thief Hat, and one of the Ninjas had a pair of Assassin Daggers.

My eyes glistened, everything went red, and the next thing I knew my Thief was the most OP thing in Chapter 3.

Quote from: "philsov"either way, yes, it's something that does need to be addressed.  Probably give daggers a 25% for nasty status effect, and make sure to strip the spell edge from it's Don't Act proc (!).  Or prevent them from being dual-weld, despite thematic wtf-ness.  Thief hat will probably be toned down to 1 sp, with more HP to compensate, maybe even shift it's DA/DM immunity over to black hood.  Sasuke knives don't need to be +sp at all imo.  Secret clothes are rare, 2 speed is fine.

I think Spell Edge is fine, honestly.

Maybe make Daggers ignore evasion + 25% medium Level proc or something?

1 Speed Point, block Don't Move / Don't Act, high HP (about as much as Flash Hat, at least) Thief Hat seems good IMO.  I always though Black Hood should have some kind of effect to it.   Maybe have it half the three basic Elements (Fire, Ice Lightning) to contrast it to Black Robe?

Sasuke Knives need some kind of Proc unless all Ninja Swords are vanilla.  All Ninja Swords being vanilla would be silly, imo, so give it something.  Just not Speed +1.  No clue what, though.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 15, 2009, 05:46:18 pm
I just read the 1st post. I like :P
I'm not so sure about damaging / status items though... mostly about the one that causes damage. I think it's making an already useful skillset too versatile.

Do you have a tentative release date Phil?
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 06:44:55 pm
QuoteMaybe have it half the three basic Elements (Fire, Ice Lightning) to contrast it to Black Robe?

That's what white robe is for.  :-P

QuoteDo you have a tentative release date Phil?

Thanksgiving/Christmas time.  The event text is a lot to wade through (4 megs of TEXT) and will require a lot of trial and error at least at first to make sure I don't clip text or have a line be half length or something.  On top of that I'm only so witty so I can't barrel through the spoof lest I do too many clich├ęs.  Mechanics I can roll around in all day, but pure text?  Not so much, I have my limits there.

Still open to anyone's (spoof) scene suggestions, btw.

The storyline battles will need a thorough playthrough regarding unit placement/abilities to cope with the new movement/range paradigm to boot.  But on the plus side I'm aware of the battle difficulty so I can ct5holy debug myself through a lot of the battles after I see how the first few rounds work out.

Edit:  I do plan on breaking the 4th wall a few times, but this asmo quote IS making it into the game:

 "It's a pretty shitty idea dude. Play FFT, but with a bunch of no-names from the internet mary-sueing themselves into the game. WOOOO. I can't contain my excitement!"
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 07:05:09 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Edit:  I do plan on breaking the 4th wall a few times, but this asmo quote IS making it into the game:

 "It's a pretty shitty idea dude. Play FFT, but with a bunch of no-names from the internet mary-sueing themselves into the game. WOOOO. I can't contain my excitement!"

Have Agrias say it during her argument with Gafgarion, and rename the entire Lezales team after FFH members.

For the lulz.

I can probably make that into a mock script if I can ass myself to go find exactly how the convo goes originally.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 15, 2009, 07:19:45 pm
Woah... I see this is gonna be quite spoof-heavy!
Ambitious project here! ^^

FFH references FTW! A nice balance / ASM / spoofpatch.
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Post by: Dome on October 15, 2009, 07:28:22 pm
One of the enemies at the start of the game should be either Completeboy/Algus/Me/PSP7master saying stupid things like
We will steal the princess and we doesnt afraid!!!
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 07:38:41 pm
Quotewe doesnt afraid!!!

that quote is making it into this game when pigs soar, gracious and free, over the icy reaches of hell.

The FFH references will be quite few, and subtle.  But renaming the Orbonne crew will probably happen.  Stuff like Ramza saying "I could use the JP to unlock Knight" instead of "I am no longer a Knight" is the type of 4th wall I'll be cracking at.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 15, 2009, 07:51:47 pm
Oh, serious spoofing. Spoof but with substance and sense, I like that :)

EDIT: Many Ss xD ssSSssSSSSsSsssssssssssssssssss
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 08:00:48 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
Quotewe doesnt afraid!!!

that quote is making it into this game when pigs soar, gracious and free, over the icy reaches of hell.

So you'll add that in if I can beat Altima with a Wildbow in my party?

Awesome.
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Post by: DarthPaul on October 15, 2009, 08:27:13 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
Quote from: "philsov"
Quotewe doesnt afraid!!!

that quote is making it into this game when pigs soar, gracious and free, over the icy reaches of hell.

So you'll add that in if I can beat Altima with a Wildbow in my party?

Awesome.

If that quote makes it into the game I'm killing Philsov.......or Dome whichever seems to deserve it more at the time.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 08:30:16 pm
This could probably get really polished up since I'm doing it rather quickly, but going in completely blind of what you want to do in terms of spoofing, I had this idea.

-Outside Orbonne Monastery, confronting "Lezales' Team"-

Agrias: The crest of Hacktics!? What's wrong with Zodiac!? He's such an idiot! Does he want to start another theism debate!?

Dome (Lezales): We will steal the princess and we doesnt afraid of anything!  Now do a barrel roll or my blade shall scar that... amazingly hot... noseless face...

[The black knight and the two squires comes out to help Agrias
and the others.]

Gafgarion: This is a pretty shitty idea dude. Play FFT, but with a bunch of no-names from the internet mary-sueing themselves into the game. WOOOO. I can't contain my excitement!

[Agrias steps forward.]

Agrias: Ugh... another fanboy... he probably looks up naughty pictures of me on Google too...

Gafgarion: Who would want to look up those kinds of pics of a stuck up bitch like you? Rad, Ramza! Follow me!! Kill all these weeaboo bastards!

Agrias: Nonsense! I need to kill them so I can send a message to these freaks! Else Zodiac will keep sanctioning these creepy bastards!

Gafgarion: Like I said... who would want to see racy pics of a bitch like this anyway?

--------------------------------------------------

IDK, random and halfassed, but I think it can be made rather funny with a bit of elbow grease that I currently can't put into it.
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Post by: philsov on October 15, 2009, 09:21:40 pm
No, the main bad guy is still goltana.  The main plot is going to stay identical, it's just all becoming a bit self-aware and absurd.

//Message x01
{font:08}Agrias{br}
{font:00}The crest of the Black Lion!?{br}
{br}
What's wrong with Prince{br}
Goltana!?{br}
He's such an idiot!{br}
Does he want to start a war!?{end}

//Message x02
{font:08}Goltana Knight{br}
{font:00}Knave! There's no point{br}
in resisting!{br}
It's our entire force of Nanten,{br}
versus six underleveled knaves!{br}
I'm sure the outcome will be spectacular!{end}

//Message x03
{font:08}Gafgarion{br}
{font:00}Fool!{br}
Only idiots attack head on!{end}

//Message x04
{font:08}Agrias{br}
{font:00}Aren't you about to {br}
attack head on?{end}

//Message x05
{font:08}Gafgarion{br}
{font:00}Now is not the time for{br}
semantics!{br}
Rad, {Ramza}!{br}
Follow me!!{end}

or stuff like this:

Outside the castle, later...

ALGUS: ...My family was once respected like the Beoulves. My
grandfather was captured during the Fifty Year War... He sold
his friends out to the enemy to save himself. But, as he left
the castle, he got stabbed in the back by a cadet just like
myself. One of my grandfather's friends managed to escape and
spread the story around. Of course my father didn't believe
it, but everyone else did, they deserted him...

DELITA: Summary. Now.

ALGUS: I'm a wanker.

RAMZA: That's better.

VOICE OF YOUNG GIRL: Delita!

DELITA: Teta!

RAMZA: Alma, Zalbag!

ALGUS: Algus!

RAMZA: ...Algus?

ZALBAG: I heard how you beat the thieves in Gariland. That's
worthy of a Beoulve. I'm sure father would've been pleased
with you.

RAMZA: So stabbing things until they die is the way of the Beoulves?

ZALBAG: You know it.

RAMZA: Rock on.

TETA: Delita, I'm glad you're doing well.

DELITA: And you also. How is your schooling?

TETA: Fine. Everyone is so nice to me...

ALMA: Why must you turn this castle into a house of LIES, Teta?

TETA: Oh you shut up.

ZALBAG: Excuse me, but I must go hunt some thieves.

RAMZA: Yee haw!

ZALBAG: The death corps want a ransom.

RAMZA: How large?

ZALBAG: A billion gil.

ZALBAG: True. We could pay easily, but we're arrogant bastards. Oh wait, one more thing...our messenger hasn't returned yet.

RAMZA: What did you say?

ZALBAG: Nevermind. Guarding a castle is boring work, don't you think? *Winks*

ALGUS: I think he likes me!

DELITA: Teta, I have to go now...
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 15, 2009, 10:18:50 pm
Lol @ the second one.  Definitely use that.

Like I said, mine was rough/quick.  It could keep Agrias' first line the same and probably work fine.  Though yours is better, I think.

I also realized I forgot to specify in my version that Lezales (Dome) was supposed to be a naked Martial Arts Knight and be killed by a first turn Chaos Blade / Holy Explosion for insolence and lulz.  Probably would've made it make more sense, damn.  

Yours work well, though.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 16, 2009, 01:51:00 pm
Hey Phil, will you release it without Spoofs later? So we can playtest and see if all the gameplay changes are good to go or need further tweaking. In theory some things might sound fine, but in practice lies the truth :P
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Post by: philsov on October 16, 2009, 01:56:53 pm
If I can get one or two decidated volunteers, looking for specific things, yes.  Me posting it randomly out and getting feedback like "I beat it" is rather wasteful.

imo the gameplay changes are fine, regarding the new evasion setup with both C.Ev. and weapon guard.  Potential changes to Item just need a check to see how the AI handles them.  My primary concern are the fights themselves maintaining the same dynamic.  

Take Barius Valley for example.  Will Agrias need to be placed closer to the party?  Does the enemy need to shift any?

Does any enemy need to be setup differently?  Having a melee-based unit in the back of the map may be a waste due to how long it'll take him to get into action.  Is their initial placement enabling them to be effective?  etcetcetc.

I'm almost positive I'll have to somehow tweak Zaland >_<.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 16, 2009, 02:08:41 pm
Ok. I know what you mean. I can volunteer to test if you want, as of now I have some free time. Take into account that I don't know how to use any hacking programs though (but if you need me to use FFTPatcher or whatever to speed up the testing process you can give me some pointers and I'll do it). If not, at least I can give you complete, objective reviews on any battle I play (not some shitty "I just beat Sweegy swamps, it was easy").

If you feel that I can be of help then PM me or whatever. If not, I can understand :P

EDIT: oh, you edited your post, I didn't see that. Well, so you basically want to see how battles fare with the new gameplay mechanics so that all the battles behave the same (as they behave with normal gameplay)?
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Post by: philsov on October 16, 2009, 02:15:44 pm
Oh, you can.  consider this your tapping.

I'll post something up or PM you or something in a week or so once I hammer out some finer mechanics points relative to speed like actual speed growth figures, ability CTR, and status duration(!).  

Plus stuff like wtf I'm going to do about daggers.  They need something to warrant being equipped.  Else thieves/ninjas will default to ninja swords and chemists/mediators will default the guns.  +1 Sp was a great move but being able to double up on em is too much.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 16, 2009, 02:21:26 pm
Cool. This will be my 1st real contribution to the site ^^
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Post by: philsov on October 16, 2009, 02:31:10 pm
QuoteEDIT: oh, you edited your post

I do that to about half my posts after immediately posting them.  :p

But yes, I'm more interested in the range/movement ripple effect than anything else at this point.  Using golgarond as an example (4th gameplay video, featuring the best audio of all time), the time mages have ranged abilities so they're fine starting quite away from the group.  That monk on the top is a lame duck and needs to be altered -- either given a better equip/movement to make him more mobile or simply relocated to elsewhere on the map.  The female archers can swap between the lancer-type and archer-type for probably higher effectiveness.  Two monks on the ground should be fine, though the farther one might get a longer-range secondary.

edit:  And also any enemy that was forced into weapon guard will obviously be looking for a new reaction, though many lower-tiered reaction may suffice.  Additionally looking to insert the new auto-potion and ?counter spinfist? into many-a-foe :).  And oh god I've created a monster.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 16, 2009, 02:40:03 pm
Quote from: "philsov"But yes, I'm more interested in the range/movement ripple effect than anything else at this point.  Using golgarond as an example (4th gameplay video, featuring the best audio of all time), the time mages have ranged abilities so they're fine starting quite away from the group.  That monk on the top is a lame duck and needs to be altered -- either given a better equip/movement to make him more mobile or simply relocated to elsewhere on the map.  The female archers can swap between the lancer-type and archer-type for probably higher effectiveness.  Two monks on the ground should be fine, though the farther one might get a longer-range secondary.

Can't the upper Monk be given Ignore Height?

I didn't check him, but my one attempt at Golgorand so far on Easytype makes me think it was removed.

Also I can probably test this as well, if you like.
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Post by: philsov on October 16, 2009, 03:02:52 pm
he could, yes.  In fact in earlier versions of 1.3 he had ignore height.  But I bitched about it a lot, and maybe others did to, because having said monk up in your face on the first turn was too much. So he got jump+2 which let him hop down to the gallows for a second round attack... but that hop requires 3 movement, which'll only happen if I give him move +1 and spike shoes.  Or I can do something like give him elemental, or equip gun + romanda gun, or something.  There's a lot of juggling possible.  

edit:  and in addition to fumbling with reactions I also need to toggle around movement slots in the ENTD.  So... this might take closer to two weeks, depending how industrious I'm feeling.  Either way I'll let you both know.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 16, 2009, 03:18:08 pm
Quote from: "philsov"he could, yes.  In fact in earlier versions of 1.3 he had ignore height.  But I bitched about it a lot, and maybe others did to, because having said monk up in your face on the first turn was too much. So he got jump+2 which let him hop down to the gallows for a second round attack... but that hop requires 3 movement, which'll only happen if I give him move +1 and spike shoes.  Or I can do something like give him elemental, or equip gun + romanda gun, or something.  There's a lot of juggling possible.

Spike Shoes and Move +1 seems like it'd do since it seems a bit early to chuck Germinas Boots on him.

Elemental from a Monk seems like it would end up being weak (since MA affects the formula more than PA, iirc), so the only worry would be him landing multiple petrify procs if the units under the bridge aren't faster than him.   Seems kinda silly.

Equip Gun + Romanda Gun would be cool, but that seems to defeat the purpose of him being a Monk.

I'd say just go with either Spike Shoes and Move +1 or Ignore Height to let him get in range.  I almost want to say be a real dick, and give him Ignore Height, Concentrate, and Counter Spin Fist, but that'd be ridiculously douchebaggy even if quite lulz worthy.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 16, 2009, 03:31:03 pm
Make him a female archer, but with a crossbow. Else move+1 and Spike shoes are ok. Ignore height.. is too much. This battle is my curse, always the 1st battle I have trouble with T_T
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Post by: philsov on October 16, 2009, 03:53:41 pm
first post updated to include proposed changes to reactions/movement abilities, changes to some items, and new status durations.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 10:58:25 am
I'd like to point out that you told me not to assume, but your evasion edits made a lot of my points about Shields and Mages correct, from what I can see from a quick skim.  :p

God, someone needs to find a way to do the whole Global evasion for Shields / Weapon Guard / Mantles (or, if already known, get motivated enough to make such ASMs).  We could do a lot of interesting things with evasion with those in place, imo.  It'd also make which position you attack from more important in general, instead of just against units with high C-EV and a "Am I behind the enemy, Y/N?", something that I think would make the vastly reduced movement ranges both more easily justified, and make finding the best use for that more restricted movement harder since there are more potentially viable options.

I had a really good idea, but I've forgotten it somehow typing the above paragraph.  @.@

Meanwhile... if we removed Jump +1, and moved Jump +2 and Jump +3 down to earlier Jobs (or, if Fly is going to be available on an early mage class, just remove them entirely besides *maybe* Jump +3?), could we add some new Movement abilities or something in their place?  If we're ASM'ing the hell out of this and making the Movement slot more than Teleport vs Move +3 anyway, seems sensible to toss some of the movements that never get used and make them into something more usable (see: Counter Tackle -> Counter Spin Fist).   Same for Supports / Reactions, but I can't think of as many "useless" abilities in those two areas to replace.  I was going to say that Cup of Life one or whatever, but with vastly neutered Move stats that ability actually becomes usable in its current form, save how hard it is to get to.

Random thought: Since we're cutting the Speed stat down quite a bit, how about simply making all growths equal and making the class multipliers the determining factor in stats?  Makes leveling characters far less tedious.  Less customizable, sure, but also less tedious, and tediousness is something I don't see the need for in anything meant to be called a "game", even if I am a slightly insane power grinder.
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Post by: Asmo X on October 17, 2009, 11:08:09 am
I've been a proponent of multiplier-only stats for ages now. Please do this. I have always hated the different growth rates so fucking much.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 11:42:12 am
Also, for Daggers, I was thinking making them 100% accurate (sensible, considering Daggers are assassination weapons instead of melee weapons) with low damage and a medium proc (Poison, etc level status).  Makes them kind of similar to Flails, but those specialize in outputting rather sizable damage, whereas Daggers are mostly about consistent lower-end damage and status under this.  This would also make them different from Ninja Swords, meaning Spell Edge can keep its Don't Act and Ninja Swords can stay Two Swords-enabled.  Still no idea what to do with Sasuke Knife, but I feel it should have something... maybe +1 PA, or even making them 100% accurate with no proc so they follow the original 1.3 trend of being proc-less Dagger 2.0?

Or, another thought I was entertaining was making all Daggers have a 6.25% Dead attached to whatever other procs they already have (to simulate an assassination) instead of the 100% accuracy, but that'd probably be silly.
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Post by: philsov on October 17, 2009, 11:52:11 am
QuoteI'd like to point out that you told me not to assume, but your evasion edits made a lot of my points about Shields and Mages correct, from what I can see from a quick skim. :p

Of the natural shield wearers, their C.Ev is 10 max (squires and geos at 10, knights and lancers at 5) and lancer is only natural shield wearer with above average weapon guard - which is a welcome boost to the lancer class.  The best classes with C.Ev are not shield wearers, and W.Ev is mostly tied between melee-oriented weapons and those for the mage types.

QuoteIf we're ASM'ing the hell out of this and making the Movement slot more than Teleport vs Move +3 anyway, seems sensible to toss some of the movements that never get used and make them into something more usable

You seem to misunderstand.  I look at Hex/ASM code and its complete gibberish.  I'm simply adding in a lot of ASM hacks others have done.  Counter Spin Fist is a function of fftpatcher.

QuoteRandom thought: Since we're cutting the Speed stat down quite a bit, how about simply making all growths equal and making the class multipliers the determining factor in stats? Makes leveling characters far less tedious. Less customizable, sure, but also less tedious, and tediousness is something I don't see the need for in anything meant to be called a "game", even if I am a slightly insane power grinder.

How in the world would changing class growth make gaining experience any more or less tedious?

QuoteI've been a proponent of multiplier-only stats for ages now. Please do this. I have always hated the different growth rates so fucking much.

And... I added growths into the game.  I'll tone them down some, though.  At the current scheme a career time mage going over to monk has 16 PA to the natural monk's 22 at 99.  I'll aim to make the difference 3 points max at 99.  Because by playing "normally" you'll never get to 99 in the first place, so the reality of the situation will be one or two points.

Additionally the classes with the best growth are also among the bottom tier as far as fighting is concerned, and I think there should be a reward for trying to stay a knight throughout the game when you could simply be a ninja and one-shot a majority of things.

Edit:  Distribute moving down to the priest tree sound good?  Maybe oracle.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 17, 2009, 01:17:42 pm
I say give Fly to Oracles and Float (movement) to Time Mages (as they are now). Distribute to the Priest doesn't sound bad at all.

One thing you'll have to be really careful now is weapons that used SP in their formula, because of the huge speed nerf. Daggers, Bows and Ninja swords? I'd say raise their WP, but then you also gotta be careful about Throw and other stuff that uses their WP. Changing their formula might do the trick. If you halved SP, why not make the formula WP * { [PA+(2*SP)] / 2 } ... is that even possible or you'll have to ASM that?

@ Knives: making them ignore EV sounds fine to me. Given their low power, I don't think it's too much. This way, they could retain their WP * [ (PA + SP) / 2 ] formula.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 01:43:08 pm
Quote from: "philsov"You seem to misunderstand.  I look at Hex/ASM code and its complete gibberish.  I'm simply adding in a lot of ASM hacks others have done.  Counter Spin Fist is a function of fftpatcher.

1. lrn2base12?

2. Go make a code junky your bitch?

:p

Quote from: "philsov"How in the world would changing class growth make gaining experience any more or less tedious?

I'm not stuck leveling in 1 class ad-nauseum, and then grinding JP in a completely different class if I want anything resembling good stat growths.

I'm also not stuck grinding JP to unlock said Job to grind in without gaining too many levels.

And I further don't end up bawwing my eyes out because I can't get a late game Orlandu with good stats because he already came in at 50something.

Etc.

It remedies a lot more than it initially sounds.

Quote from: "philsov"Edit:  Distribute moving down to the priest tree sound good?  Maybe oracle.

Priest sounds cool beans.  Wouldn't make as much sense to be on Oracle, and Priest needs a bit more than just Magic Defense UP for people not intending to use White Magic to spend their JP on.  Granted, Oracle is similar in that regard, but Priest makes more sense for it imo.

At this rate, we'll have no good abilities left to put on Bards / Dancers in terms of R/S/M besides Move +2, but between 1.3 and all these cuts to Speed Growth, their skillsets just got a lot better anyway... which is honestly how I think I prefer it.  Less reason to killself trying to open it for almost every character, but still well worth doing since the classes have become far better in their own right.




Also, Sephirot24's post made me remember a simple solution to Sasuke Knife - make it PA +1 instead of Sp +1.  Means the same thing in terms of the damage formula, but no ridiculous Speed boosting and differentiates it from whatever we do to Daggers in the end.
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Post by: philsov on October 17, 2009, 06:18:58 pm
QuoteOne thing you'll have to be really careful now is weapons that used SP in their formula, because of the huge speed nerf. Daggers, Bows and Ninja swords?

noted, thanks for that.  I'll throw something together for that.

QuoteGo make a code junky your bitch?

all... 3 of them? =\

QuoteEtc.

It remedies a lot more than it initially sounds.

No, all your pain is self chosen.   Easytype is the base.  You need neither max stats nor even special characters, much less max stat specials, to beat it.  If you want super-max stats, be prepared to do the same thing.  You can just level-as-you-play instead of making JP and level grinding mutually exclusive.

Growth variance is staying in, but the disparity gap -is- getting decreased.

QuoteAt this rate, we'll have no good abilities left to put on Bards / Dancers in terms of R/S/M besides Move +2,  

They're keeping PA/MA save, still have move +2, and never had supports in the first place.  Both lose fly, which I doubt anyone took.
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 17, 2009, 06:31:34 pm
Wait, would Face Up and Brave Up be coming back then? Would they go to the two classes?
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Post by: philsov on October 17, 2009, 06:39:37 pm
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Wait, would Face Up and Brave Up be coming back then? Would they go to the two classes?

I... completely forgot about those two.  Indeed, they're making a comeback :)

edit:  Aside, Arch, wtf did you do to these events?  Inside of Lionel and the graveyard have swapped O.o
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 07:09:47 pm
Quote from: "philsov"No, all your pain is self chosen.   Easytype is the base.  You need neither max stats nor even special characters, much less max stat specials, to beat it.  If you want super-max stats, be prepared to do the same thing.  You can just level-as-you-play instead of making JP and level grinding mutually exclusive.

Growth variance is staying in, but the disparity gap -is- getting decreased.

I'm still not seeing a reason.  If the differences are meant to not even be noticeable until Level 99 (or barely be noticeable by a "normally" played end game situation), why even have them?

That's stupid, imo.  Making them flat growths serves the same purpose for the people who play the game "normally" while not leaving characters slightly crippled in about half the job tree near the higher levels.

You're telling me they won't be noticeable unless I level to 99.  Yet since the base is easytype, I shouldn't ever need to do that.  Therefore, I'm seeing no reason why class growths are superior to flat growths with more powerful multipliers.

Quote from: "philsov"They're keeping PA/MA save, still have move +2, and never had supports in the first place.  Both lose fly, which I doubt anyone took.

I TOOK FLY.

;_;

Quote from: "philsov"I... completely forgot about those two. Indeed, they're making a comeback

So I'm assuming that Br / Fa modifiers don't last after battle now "officially"?

But still cool.  The question now seems to be where to put them, I'm assuming.

Brave Up on Samurai, Face Up on... Mediator?

Samurai and Knight don't have Reaction commands anymore, and Brave Up fits more on Samurai than Knight.  Face Up is an iffy fit on Mediator, but they need a good Reaction to learn because Finger Guard is beyond levels of worthless in a 1.3 game.

Which reminds me, if there are any more Reactions we wanna throw in, we should toss Finger Guard! Fucking useless shit doesn't even dodge all the good Talk Skills anymore anyway.  Isn't there some kind of Counter Reflect in Patcher or something?  I've never looked, so I wouldn't know, but I've heard of it... I think.
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 17, 2009, 07:36:44 pm
That was my doing, Philsov... it was to make the switch much more complete and easier to fathom, for the 1v1 Vormav event.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 17, 2009, 07:59:49 pm
The only growth that I'd be in favor of changing equal to every class would be SP.
But as Phil said,
Quotethe classes with the best growth are also among the bottom tier as far as fighting is concerned, and I think there should be a reward for trying to stay a knight throughout the game when you could simply be a ninja and one-shot a majority of things.

Br UP and Fa UP should mod at least 7 pts. I don't remember very well how much they used to mod.. (not permanently obviously).
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Post by: philsov on October 17, 2009, 09:15:26 pm
Quote from: "LastingDawn"That was my doing, Philsov... it was to make the switch much more complete and easier to fathom, for the 1v1 Vormav event.

I figured that may've been a factor.  No bother, I'll just make sure to have them keep their offsets :)  Keeping the 1v1 is something I'd like to do, it's an awesome piece of work.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"You're telling me they won't be noticeable unless I level to 99.  Yet since the base is easytype, I shouldn't ever need to do that.  Therefore, I'm seeing no reason why class growths are superior to flat growths with more powerful multipliers.

I'll say it again.  "'I'm aiming to make the difference 3 points max at 99."  Which, for the math illiterate, means you will obviously see an effect before level 99.  Maybe even somewhere around 33!  For a point of comparison, 3 points is also the male/female PA/MA gap.

The reasons are as such:
- conceptual.  If you spend your entire career as a certain class, there should be an opportunity cost and gain to doing such.  
- as also stated before, the classes with the best growth are also suboptimal (imo) for many battle scenarios, and it serves as an incentive to be a weaker class.

If the growths were so meager that a difference wouldn't be noticeable, you'd be agreeing with me very loudly.

QuoteI TOOK FLY.

;_;

And, like... actually equipped it on your people?  I gave it to my dancers/bards just to see the pretty gold Master star, but teleport overshadowed it far too much.

QuoteSo I'm assuming that Br / Fa modifiers don't last after battle now "officially"?

But still cool.  The question now seems to be where to put them, I'm assuming.

Brave Up on Samurai, Face Up on... Mediator?

Yeah, it's official.  I know the poll states otherwise, but looking through the abilities (and replacing negotiate and death sentence, rip) there's enough space in talk skill land for both the new skills and older ones.  

the only repercussions are the br boost from mandalia/mustadio are lost and gone forever.  Alas.

Regarding a reactions, I'd like to see Br and Fa up symmetrical.  I can throw meatbone slash down from monk onto knight, give Br Up to Samu and Fa up to Sage.  That way everyone has a reaction (Sage's distribute is shifting anyways) and it's win-win all around.  I'd rather it not be on bard/dancer unless I make them both available to both classes.  I may pull the same with MA/PA save, tbh.  

Yes finger guard sucks balls but Reflect does nothing.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 09:35:56 pm
Quote from: "philsov"And, like... actually equipped it on your people?  I gave it to my dancers/bards just to see the pretty gold Master star, but teleport overshadowed it far too much.

My Thief needed something to chase Zalmo with, and his Time Mage JP had already been spent on Haste 2 and Short Charge (iirc).  Fly is really cool when you're sporting a Rubber Costume anyway, since said Thief has 5 move and literally flies over chapels as awesomesauce leeks from his shoes.

Then, there was the Outside of Limberry Castle where I needed something like Teleport again, and my Lancer doubled as a master Bard and had enough move without Teleport gambling, so I saved the JP and went with what I had.

I believe same Lancer may have used it Outside of Lionel Castle for the epic lulz.  I know he used it somewhere in Chapter 3.

Quote from: "philsov"Regarding a reactions, I'd like to see Br and Fa up symmetrical.  I can throw meatbone slash down from monk onto knight, give Br Up to Samu and Fa up to Sage.  That way everyone has a reaction (Sage's distribute is shifting anyways) and it's win-win all around.  I'd rather it not be on bard/dancer unless I make them both available to both classes.  I may pull the same with MA/PA save, tbh.

Works.

Imo make PA Save / MA Save each available on both Bard and Dancer, so each job rounds out with two Reaction abilities.  Fixes the problem right there.

Quote from: "philsov"Yes finger guard sucks balls but Reflect does nothing.

Lies.

Finger Guard does nothing.  I was Mimic Daravon'd through a Finger Guard at the Colliery before.  I cried.

Reflect at least lets me Spell bounce, or suicide a guy into some Black Mages while everyone else falls back out of bounced Spell range.  It's more useful than Finger Guard, for sure, so until someone hacks in something better may as well go with the best we have no?

I'll reply to the other thing later, I'm not in the best of moods atm so I don't want to touch anything with the words "math illiterate" and debate the impact of a single PA point over a "standard" playthrough since it'll be rather bloody since I'm also lamenting over a broken USB stick and finding a way to fix it that doesn't cost me my first born child that I've yet to conceive.
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Post by: philsov on October 17, 2009, 09:44:25 pm
nono.  the reflect reaction ability literally does nothing.   :P
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 17, 2009, 09:59:03 pm
Quote from: "philsov"nono.  the reflect reaction ability literally does nothing.   :P

Oh.

I c.

*cracks whip*

FIX IT YOU LAZY NON-HEX-READING SOB.

...It's STILL more useful than Finger Guard, btw.
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Post by: philsov on October 18, 2009, 01:56:49 pm
+PA to sasuke knives is fine.

As for daggers... I'm still at a loss.  The only way to make them 100% (currently) is to also give them the Gun formula -- WP * WP.  The mediators and chemists are rather boned out of this deal, because they already get guns.  As far as damage is concerned, they can synch up quite well with the desired levels, that is, slightly weaker (25%) or so relative to what the ninja swords are possible of -- which is the trade off for being 100%, especially in this patch.  

And, no, raven, before you ask this is too much/too minor to ASM, since I'd have to change the base formula, which also means somehow seperating ninja swords/longbows from it at the same time.  

So this'll probably happen, and then chemists will gain the ability to wield books as well for flavor and non redundancy.

Also front page edited to include new charge times for everything.  TBH most are fine, the only thing warranting a change are summon, song, and dance, which got a small increase in CTR.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 10:06:32 am
!

Why didn't I include this earlier?

1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.
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Post by: Archael on October 19, 2009, 10:16:20 am
QuoteLies.

Finger Guard does nothing. I was Mimic Daravon'd through a Finger Guard at the Colliery before. I cried.

Finger Guard stops all talk skills except Refute, Threaten, Preach, and Praise (basically the 1.3 exclusive ones)

it works vs all others

stop lying to urself!
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 10:17:58 am
obviously he just needs 100 Br.
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Post by: Dome on October 19, 2009, 10:19:23 am
Quote from: "philsov"3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.
I disagree here
IMHO If someone actually does all the work to get them, let him take the reward (Search for the monster, invite him, save, poach him and hope that he became the rare poach, otherwise reset and so on)
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 10:20:32 am
so blade grasp is fine so long as it costs 5000 JP?
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Post by: Dome on October 19, 2009, 10:22:43 am
Quote from: "philsov"so blade grasp is fine so long as it costs 5000 JP?
Blade grasp is gamebreaking (That's why you should never get it, or change it to block only some kind of weapon)
Some good equip that you are going to get anyway isn't
Still IMHO ofc
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 19, 2009, 12:38:56 pm
I agree on the poaching front, I wish there were a way to make it so you couldn't poach your own party but... that would be a lot of work, aside from that I'd say lower the ridiculous prize for some of them and move them elsewhere.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 01:29:20 pm
Quote from: "philsov"!

Why didn't I include this earlier?

1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

I had a big reply to this, but firefox ated it.

Short, only do 1 and 2, or just 3.  1 and 2 solve it by putting the monsters with epic poaches in Chapter 4 battles only, 3 solves it by making the poaches impossible.

I'm not understanding the hate anyway - if someone invests a lot of time grinding, shouldn't they get *some* kind of return?  An ability like Blade Grasp (your earlier example) doesn't quite work since abilities can be inherited, though I guess the counter-argument here would be scaling Levels in 1.3, to which I'd reply that Level grinding is the easiest and least time-consuming of them (Auto-Battle! Which is another simple counter to the whole 5000 JP Blade Grasp thing), whereas grinding for abilities and equipments while trying to NOT level too far above and get screwed by scaling takes far more effort.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 19, 2009, 01:41:16 pm
I agree with Phil, and the Blade Grasp Example.

Blade Grasp totally breaks the game though. Poaching makes it quite easier. And besides, he's not wiping it out completely, he just wants to make it happen at a later time. If you want to break the game, go ahead, just do it in the last chapter.. not in the middle of the game.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 02:06:32 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
Quote from: "philsov"1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

Short, only do 1 and 2, or just 3.  1 and 2 solve it by putting the monsters with epic poaches in Chapter 4 battles only, 3 solves it by making the poaches impossible.

No, there's some major synergy between them.  For example, Woodman (tier 1 tree people) had the rare poach of Yoichi bow.  That bow is better than any buyable bow.  Ever.  and it becomes immediately available after killing queklain, before all the other buyable bows are even unlocked?  That's not good design.

If I only do 1 and 2, that sort of thing still occurs, unless I lock up the entire tree family into the middle of chapter 4 which I am simply not going to do when all I have to do is throw a few switches and simply make that item unavailable until later by throwing it onto a different, later-teir monster that won't be seen until chapter 4, and maybe not even immediately into chapter 4 either.  

Alternative wording for 3:  Make it so the monsters that are poachable early on don't have end-game gear.  

Quoteif someone invests a lot of time grinding, shouldn't they get *some* kind of return?

Nope.  

Enemy levels scale with party so you can't invest a lot of time grinding and get a massive reward.  The design idea as far as battle difficulty goes is at least half of the enemy equipment is on par to what the player can pull over, and the other half is random/level based.  The alternative to this is equipping many enemies at the start of chapter 3 with overpowered and out of place gear.  But that will not be happening, as it renders shops useless, removes any future gear scaling, and is a massive difficulty spike for anyone who hasn't invested hours in poaching runs for rare drops.

Quotewhereas grinding for abilities and equipments while trying to NOT level too far above and get screwed by scaling takes far more effort.

Have an alternate randon/poaching crew and learn all abilities through spillover JP (autobattle is easy, yes?).  I'm not seeing extra effort, nor should players be rewarded for "trying really hard".
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 02:34:50 pm
Quote from: "philsov"No, there's some major synergy between them.  For example, Woodman (tier 1 tree people) had the rare poach of Yoichi bow.  That bow is better than any buyable bow.  Ever.  and it becomes immediately available after killing queklain, before all the other buyable bows are even unlocked?  That's not good design.

If I only do 1 and 2, that sort of thing still occurs, unless I lock up the entire tree family into the middle of chapter 4 which I am simply not going to do when all I have to do is throw a few switches and simply make that item unavailable until later by throwing it onto a different, later-teir monster that won't be seen until chapter 4, and maybe not even immediately into chapter 4 either.

Alternative wording for 3:  Make it so the monsters that are poachable early on don't have end-game gear.

That's better.

Moving the Yoichi Bow from say, the tier 1 Tree to the tier 3 Tree makes sense.

Your old wording made it seem like you were going to do this ridiculousness, then take the Poaches off entirely anyway.  That would've been stupid.

This seems better on first look, even if 1) kills most hopes of Beastmaster on ASM'D.

Quote from: "philsov"Nope.  

Enemy levels scale with party so you can't invest a lot of time grinding and get a massive reward.  The design idea as far as battle difficulty goes is at least half of the enemy equipment is on par to what the player can pull over, and the other half is random/level based.  The alternative to this is simply equipping many enemies at the start of chapter 3 with overpowered and out of place gear.

Sounds like my argument for flat stat growths.

A player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)?  That's biased and silly.

Quote from: "philsov"Have an alternate randon/poaching crew and learn all abilities through spillover JP (autobattle is easy, yes?).  I'm not seeing extra effort, nor should players be rewarded for "trying really hard".

Auto-Battle is indeed easy.

I'll get you next time, Captain Planet!
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 02:47:14 pm
Quote1) kills most hopes of Beastmaster on ASM'D.

I realized that =\.  No spirit of life until chapter 4?  Asspack time.  But on the plus side trees are keeping 2 movement because 1 is just waaaaaay too little.  

QuoteA player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)? That's biased and silly.

But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 03:00:46 pm
Quote from: "philsov"I realized that =\.  No spirit of life until chapter 4?  Asspack time.  But on the plus side trees are keeping 2 movement because 1 is just waaaaaay too little.

Not even that, though that probably will make Queklain a giant flaming bitch.  And reminds me I need to get one of those Trees once I'm out of Golgorand Execution Site.

I was more referring to Wildbows, as I find them more useful earlier on.  But the result is the same.

At least we can get like 28305 Red Dragons from Araguay Woods and pray those and Red Panthers / Cuars can carry us through?

Wait, you're probably taking those out too.  :(

Yeah us Beastmasters are really fucked.  Thanks, philsov!

Quote from: "philsov"But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Spillover grinding / Level 1 beating already makes Chapter 3 far easier than it should be.

Trust me, I would know.

If you're condoning that, don't even bother touching the Poaches.  IMO, the abilities matter far more than those Poaches, even though some of the Poaches are indeed ridiculous.

Overpowered abilities and creative on-the-way Stealing got me through Chapter 3 with little difficulty in regular 1.3, and I used very few of the Items I actually stole.  Most of the ones I did use (besides the Thief Hats, which I honestly used less than I thought I would sans on my Thief) were buyable before the Chapter was out.

So yeah, the whole Poach-through-Chapter-3 thing... that's not as big a worry as you're making it, as the JP grinding an an IQ point or 3 already make the Chapter a pretty good joke.

Quote from: "philsov"Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.

Less method than you think there is, I'd say.

Just kill all the biasisms, and make those "weaker class", well... less weak, especially since a lot of the classes deemed "weak" are on the Physical side of the tree anyway (and are mostly just Knight / Squire...).

1.3 is meant to rebalance classes, so just rebalance them a bit more since you're based on it anyway.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 03:14:55 pm
Queklain's going to be cake, but that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

QuoteAt least we can get like 28305 Red Dragons from Araguay Woods and pray those and Red Panthers / Cuars can carry us through?

you can get blue dragons, red panther, and cuars :).  Reds won't get face time until chapter 4.

QuoteIf you're condoning that, don't even bother touching the Poaches

Yes, but a) I can't disable spillover JP and b) even if I could, I don't think I would.  So I can't/won't do anything to that regard.  However, I can curb early poaching with no negative side effects, so I will do that.   Honestly I wish I could set enemies to have a set minimum level but can go higher if the party level is higher.  But I can't do that either.  

QuoteJust kill all the biasisms, and make those "weaker class", well... less weak, especially since a lot of the classes deemed "weak" are on the Physical side of the tree anyway (and are mostly just Knight / Squire...).

1.3 is meant to rebalance classes, so just rebalance them a bit more since you're based on it anyway.

Baaaaack up.  I was just talking about poaching and jp spill over.  You're talking about class balance.  These two things are completely different.  Start over, from the top, before even more of what I said gets taken out of context.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 03:25:56 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Queklain's going to be cake, but that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Queklain seems very much trial and error.

Good setup, and the bitch seems like he'll go down easy.  A bunch of dudes spamming Spark while I sport a Flame Shield and Mind Ruin / Power Ruin / Auto Potion seems tempting initially.

Quote from: "philsov"you can get blue dragons, red panther, and cuars :).  Reds won't get face time until chapter 4.

Eww, Blue Dragons.   They're... blue...

Red Panthers / Cuars with Monster Skill are too good, lol.  At least they are until Monster Skill becomes a realistic liability, then you're in for some shit.

Quote from: "philsov"Yes, but a) I can't disable spillover JP and b) even if I could, I don't think I would.  So I can't/won't do anything to that regard.  However, I can curb early poaching with no negative side effects, so I will do that.   Honestly I wish I could set enemies to have a set minimum level but can go higher if the party level is higher.  But I can't do that either.

I'm just saying you're curbing the one thing that probably does the LEAST to make Chapter 3 easy and killing an entire method of playing the game in the process.

I agree with keeping Spillover JP, as that's not even what I used to grind and I got ridiculous as hell abilities while staying right in line with what level I should be.  I'm just saying that the whole Chapter can be made ridiculously easy for a grinder regardless of what you do.

Someone needs to find a way to do that last bit.

Quote from: "philsov"Baaaaack up.  I was just talking about poaching and jp spill over.  You're talking about class balance.  These two things are completely different.  Start over, from the top, before even more of what I said gets taken out of context.

You said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Therefore, I'm saying kill your bias by adding flat growths and make the crappy classes less crappy in order to remove your bias.

Nothing's gone out of context here.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 03:27:45 pm
QuoteWe just determined that to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 03:41:04 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Where?

Quote from: "philsov"But... he still can. Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down. Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops. They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased? Certainly. Silly? Nah, there's a method to the madness.

Over thar.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 03:46:31 pm
*headdesk*

going back...

QuoteYou said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that [allowing spillover jp in random battles to bypass the exp system AND having a seperate poaching party to gain the exp from poaching but not affect your main crew, while disallowing early-game poaching of late game gear] to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where the hell does class growth enter the picture?

edit:  I mean, if you want to talk about it, by all means talk about it.  But don't do misplaced segways from irrelevant and independant concepts.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 03:53:28 pm
Quote from: "philsov"*headdesk*

going back...

QuoteYou said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that [allowing spillover jp in random battles to bypass the exp system while making early-game poaching of late game gear] to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where the hell does class growth enter the picture?

You edit your quotes meticulously when you reply to something.

Your left in "A player can be rewarded for X class, but..." in the part I showed you, which was the lead in for my bias accusation, so one can't help but think you're implying your last line covers that as well.

See here:

Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteA player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)? That's biased and silly.

But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.

You edit everything you don't talk about out rather consistently, so one cannot help but think you were covering that as well in your reply with the "Biased? Certainly" bit.  That would honestly be the most place the "Biased? Certainly" bit would fit as an adequate reply, as the rest of your post talks about (mildly) reducing how one can devote time to grinding by further reducing the ways one can break the game by doing it, though I suppose one could see it as a bias.

Quote from: "philsov"edit:  I mean, if you want to talk about it, by all means talk about it.  But don't do misplaced segways from irrelevant and independant concepts.

STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS.

NOW I NEED TO REPLY TO THIS TOO AND BUT I'VE BECOME LAZY.  FGS.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 03:56:17 pm
The using X class quote wasn't in my quote because I wasn't replying to it.  

It's a poor analogy and has no place in a discussion about poaching.

edit:  wait, yeah, I did leave it in the quote.  Next time I'll make sure to delete it.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 04:22:02 pm
Quote from: "philsov"The using X class quote wasn't in my quote because I wasn't replying to it.  

It's a poor analogy and has no place in a discussion about poaching.

edit:  wait, yeah, I did leave it in the quote.  Next time I'll make sure to delete it.

Gotta love them thar technicalities, eh!  ;D

I care more about the fact the changes pretty much make monster-based playthroughs way more difficult than they already are than the fact I can't Poach until Chapter 4, because as I said, Poaching honestly isn't the best way to make Chapter 3 a joke, in my opinion.

Heavy JP grinding and store-bought stuff does that more than plenty.  

Essentially martyring an entire non-broken, non-problematic way to play the game to stop a way of haxing a single chapter that isn't even the best way to do it seems like a very inefficient trade-off, imo.
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Post by: philsov on October 19, 2009, 04:34:39 pm
it's extending into chapter 4; the really juicy monsters won't even be immediately available -- I can make spawns at Finath/Poeskas no problem :).  Heaven forbid I keep a steady gear scale instead of introducing a massive plateau and then having it even out.  

and MR4M, martyred?  Is using t2 monsters instead of t3 that killer?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2009, 04:49:14 pm
Quote from: "philsov"and MR4M, martyred?  Is using t2 monsters instead of t3 that killer?

Not really that, even if Blue Dragons are blue and thus blasphemous.

Mostly the fact you're stuck hunting and fighting entire battles over and over again if you care about the quality / quantity of each monster you have, instead of grabbing one and playing Soldier Office to get them.  And as it is, people like bitching about getting good characters out of the REAL Soldier Office.

Beyond that, to upgrade tiers (the closest thing Beastmaster playthrough gets to Job Change), one must repeat this work again and again.

And sometimes yes, the Tier of monster being used can really make or break something.  It's not like you can grind for abilities as easily, after all.

Like I said, the Poaches being moved is fine, even if it really doesn't do as much as you want to think it will since it at least makes sense.  But it doesn't seem to be worth the trade off, because it well, doesn't do as much as you think it does.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 19, 2009, 06:09:57 pm
Woah...
You know what would solve all this? An ASM hack that only prevented monsters breeding a higher-tiered monster.

My 2 cents. I like the idea of leaving higher tiered monsters in CH4 fights, so with a re-arranged poach list people don't roflcopter with all those sweet perfumes, rubber costumes, Yoichi bows and Blaze guns. Breeding wouldn't be a problem, but you can breed Vampires from regular panthers, Explosives from Bombs and so on. However, if all this balancing kills a particular way to play the game, specially one so unique and fun as a beastmaster challenge, then I think we'll have to think a little more and find a way to solve this. I know, you're gonna say that it doesn't kill it, but you know that it's a huge disadvantage now and a lot of hassle (much more than it was already).
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Post by: Aquilae on October 19, 2009, 10:22:20 pm
Well, you could make the high-tier monsters in hard fights that can be found in the beginning of Chapter 3 as opposed to Chapter 4, similar to how one of the only Hydra-family monsters is in the Bariaus Valley Super Monster Battle.
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Post by: LastingDawn on October 20, 2009, 12:23:21 am
Would taking out breeding altogether be too extreme of a step?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 20, 2009, 12:44:56 am
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Would taking out breeding altogether be too extreme of a step?

It is indeed. The only reason Phil wants to do that is because with breeding, you allow the player to get tier 3 monsters (and hence, tier 3 poaches) just as the Fur shop becomes available.

Like I said, the perfect solution would be an ASMhack that only let you breed monsters of equal or below tier.
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Post by: philsov on October 20, 2009, 11:26:51 am
Quote from: "Sephirot24"It is indeed. The only reason Phil wants to do that is because with breeding, you allow the player to get tier 3 monsters (and hence, tier 3 poaches) just as the Fur shop becomes available.

Like I said, the perfect solution would be an ASMhack that only let you breed monsters of equal or below tier.

Indeed.  The only other solution that comes to mind is disallow entire monster families from the game until chapter 4, and then just load up those poaching lists with all the goodies.  Which ALSO completely screws over the beastmaster approach, just in a different manner.  There's currently... 17 poach-only items on the table.  That's 3 entire families that won't see the light of day until (late) chapter 4.

Or I can twist Aquilae's idea, and make some/most of these items war trophies from difficult random battles.  Which... actually sounds kind of cool, as the reward is more for challenge-beating than sitting through 8 resets at mandalia.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 20, 2009, 12:02:36 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Or I can twist Aquilae's idea, and make some/most of these items war trophies from difficult random battles.  Which... actually sounds kind of cool, as the reward is more for challenge-beating than sitting through 8 resets at mandalia.

This. It seems like the perfect compromise given the available tools.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 20, 2009, 01:17:13 pm
Reward from a difficult random sounds fun. It doesn't kill Beastmasters and is also a great incentive to play those hard-but-fun fights where you'd be screwed if you passed by accidentally with a training team setup.
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Post by: philsov on October 20, 2009, 01:35:14 pm
Quotehard-but-fun fights where you'd be screwed if you passed by accidentally with a training team setup.

Most of those got removed or nerfed in some fashion.

but not for long :).  However, they will be more concentrated towards the late-game random (hello Dolbodar) maps.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 20, 2009, 06:17:54 pm
I like the idea of making rare equipment (end game Poaches such as Sasuke Knives, Setiemsons, Salty Rages, Dragon Whiskers, Whale Whiskers, Dragon Rods, etc) become drops in Chapter 4 random battles.

I want to say we should go as far as to extend this to Items that are rare but were removed from enemies in the conversion between regular 1.3 and easytype, such as Faith Rods, Elemental Guns, etc.  I would say go even beyond that, but that may be pushing it.
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Post by: philsov on October 20, 2009, 11:41:59 pm
even in regular 1.3 faith rods were certainly capped in quantity.  The only other oddball is... blast gun?  Shouldn't be too hard (nor overpowered) to squeeze in.

And on another note:

Bags, perfumes, and ribbons.  Why the hell should women be so superior?  Equippable on all!  Though FS bag will need a tweak...
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 21, 2009, 12:22:24 am
Quote from: "philsov"Bags, perfumes, and ribbons.  Why the hell should women be so superior?  Equippable on all!  Though FS bag will need a tweak...

How did I not think about that before!! Way to go!!! =D
There will be many girly men wearing ribbons and bags :P
Maybe keep bags female. Ribbons were equipable by anyone in other FFs so I don't see a problem with them, and perfumes either.

Whatever, I'm good with all 3 or those 2.
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Post by: MiKeMiTchi on October 21, 2009, 12:41:33 am
QuoteMaybe keep bags female.

No, me like bags too! Male Chemists with bags should fit. :)
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 21, 2009, 12:42:09 am
Quote from: "philsov"Bags, perfumes, and ribbons.  Why the hell should women be so superior?  Equippable on all!  Though FS bag will need a tweak...

So... we'll finally be able to make Cloud into a flaming homosexual?

:D
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Post by: Shade on October 21, 2009, 08:58:20 am
In riovanes castle

Wiegraf: Draw your sword!

Ramza: Do you think every class in game can equip sword?

Wiegraf: With Equip Sword as support skill then yes.0

Ramza: What if I don't have that support skill?

Wiegraf: Then draw your weapon.

Ramza: What if I am a monk?

Wiegraf: JUST DRAW SOMETHING!

Ramza: Well sorry.
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Post by: philsov on October 21, 2009, 09:51:18 am
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"So... we'll finally be able to make Cloud into an EVEN LARGER flaming homosexual?

yes.  yes we will.

While I admit that perfumes (colonges!) and ribbons (haha, ribbons) are the larger culprits, I'd like to see bags equippable on males, too -- the +1 speed of h-bags or regen of P-bags is HOT.  

If I rig it up in patcher, however, I just re-classify the item type, with a few side effects:

Bags: Adopt a new formula (I don't see this as a bad thing), but also I must enable one weapon type to be equippable by all classes.  Daggers for all?
Ribbons: if shifted to "headgear", this means that armored classes and monks, male and female alike, will not be able to wear them.
Perfumes: No problems, I think. Just call em armlets and be done with it.

OR

Turn the effects from ribbon into an accessory, which makes them a) equippable on all classes and b)mutually exclusive to perfumes.
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Post by: Aquilae on October 21, 2009, 11:07:17 am
Wiegraf: Draw your sword!

Ramza: (takes out easel) Hang on, it'll take a moment to finish...

You could introduce male only stuff like jockstraps, heh.

One thing I'd like to see is the rare monsters like Tiamat have expensive, storebought equipment as their common poaches, like Bracers or Katanas. It'd make poaching more worthwhile and a nice bonus if you're planning to use monsters in your team, especially since the rare poaches can be gotten from randoms as per your suggestion.
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Post by: Setzer on October 21, 2009, 05:00:57 pm
Philsov, cant you just change the classes to equip them, just like cloud's Soldier?
You wont have side effects that way...
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Post by: philsov on October 21, 2009, 07:48:01 pm
I... uh... yes.

can't believe I missed that part...
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Post by: Zaen on October 21, 2009, 08:18:51 pm
Quote from: "philsov"I... uh... yes.

can't believe I missed that part...

EPIC FAIL!

But really... I like where this patch is going. The ASMs are pretty standard of any of my patch attempts, and everything else in here, such as perfumes and ribbons being set for males.. That's a great idea. Change the name from Perfume to Cologne though, for sure. Because women can wear cologne too?


Off topic:

Wiegraf: Draw your sword!

Ramza: *Mime*
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 22, 2009, 05:02:41 am
Hm.

We should put that typo from 1.3 into effect and allow Counter Magic to be used against Elemental, I think.

That skillset is going to be amazing in this patch unless you nerf its range to shit (something that shouldn't be done, imo), so giving the player (and the computer!) another way to deal with it besides simply Counter Flood and maybe Counter + ranged weapon seems prudent.
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Post by: Aquilae on October 22, 2009, 07:07:11 am
Elemental is hardly amazing. Damage isn't good (even with PA + 4 / 2 instead of PA + 2 / 2) and statuses are uncommon and shouldn't be relied upon. I'd use it if only for status proc, but it needs too specialised a setup to even match normal attack damage.
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Post by: iopyud on October 22, 2009, 09:28:47 am
Okay, I skimmed through everything and I have a bunch of suggestions:

1.) Potion = 45 HP, Hi Potion = 80 HP, X Pot = 160 Hp

2.) Change "Auto Potion" to "Auto Cure 2" OMFG LOLOLLO PWNENNDNED

3.) Basic Skill SUCKS, man. Sure it's pretty neat to have but as soon as you get something else, you forget it entirely while its counterpart "Item" still gets used until Chapter 4.

I like the the idea of Dash doing random damage, how's about 100% casting interruption? You're nerfing movements anyway and besides, it'll feel more "strategic". >_>
As for Throw Stone, how about 3 panels, 40% confuse? It'll be like Charm.

Otherwise people will just equip Item or Steal or something.

4.) Gafgarog: Didn't you know, Agrias? His name is Ramza Beoulve, the youngest shota of the Beoulve brothers. I bet you're wet now, you fucking whore.

5.) Gafgarog duel.

Ramza: Wait here, I'll squeeze one off and open the gate.
Gafgarion: I don't know how you got in but you didn't notice an ambush. Oh... and your jokes are tasteless.
*Enemy units appear*
Gafgarion: Ramza, it's me you must fight with. Teleport's been taken out, you can't cheese your way out of this one that easily. HEAVEN OR HELL DUEL LET'S ROCK.

6.) Wiegraf: Draw your sword Ramza.
     Ramza: I may be a heretic but that doesn't mean I'm gay. Not that I hate them or anything...
     Wiegraf: What's wrong? If you don't... I will.
     Ramza: Miluda will be disappointed, here you are surrounded by women during our past fights, and now you're suddenly
                 asking me to "draw my sword?"
     Wiegraf: Miluda? Who gives a damn about that bitch? She couldn't tell a cock from a stick if it hit her in the face.
     Ramza: Okay. Mental image. Ugh.
     
     *After beating him*

Wiegraf: Let's have it out here... *breathing heavily*... oh yeaaah. Feels good, man.

7.) Warn's stupid.

8.) Make this an official update for the original 1.3 LOLOLOLEOLA

9.) I like Teleport working like Defend. Can it cost a shitload of MP? It seems positioning will be vital in this mod.

10.) Angry Delita? ... oh by the way, I fucked your sister. I shot her because she got pregnant. If she gave good head, I probably would've let her live................. NOT!

Quote from: "Aquilae"Elemental is hardly amazing. Damage isn't good (even with PA + 4 / 2 instead of PA + 2 / 2) and statuses are uncommon and shouldn't be relied upon. I'd use it if only for status proc, but it needs too specialised a setup to even match normal attack damage.

Probably why they had that range in Vanilla.

EDIT: Love the spoof intro.
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Post by: philsov on October 22, 2009, 11:47:03 am
Quote1.) Potion = 45 HP, Hi Potion = 80 HP, X Pot = 160 Hp

Too good.  It's hard to reconcile chemist healing with auto-potion, sadly.  On one hand, I'd like to see a chemist able to heal moderately well without elixir.  but on the other, that much will be how much auto-potion heals for, and with those numbers it's completely ludicrious.  Check out the 3rd (or 4th) video of golgarond with AP + hi potions available.  

Quote2.) Change "Auto Potion" to "Auto Cure 2" omfsa LOLOLLO PWNENNDNED

No can do.  But a defensive reaction that's faith-based, MA-based, and costs MP?  I'd sooner swing for auto-chakra.  

Quote3.) Basic Skill SUCKS, man. Sure it's pretty neat to have but as soon as you get something else, you forget it entirely while its counterpart "Item" still gets used until Chapter 4.

With wish and cheer up, I find it a very usuable skillset.  Moreso than item, tbh.  I agree it could use some more offense, though.  I'll see if I can swing the dash suggestion, but throw stone adding status?  Bleh, no.

Quote7.) Warn's stupid.

Would giving it a 1 panel AoE be too good?  Hm.  Also I can see it being of good value with the mechanics present -- double evasion from weapon/class evasion and reduced physical damage on your point man?  KICK.  ASS.

Quote9.) I like Teleport working like Defend. Can it cost a shitload of MP? It seems positioning will be vital in this mod.

The ideas were kicked around but the ASM coding was never posted.  Alas.  

Quoteyou can't cheese your way out of this one that easily

My favorite cheese is the black choco ferry :)

QuoteProbably why they had that range in Vanilla.  

and they are keeping 4 range for this patch.

8 range = Worker 8 dispose (!)
6 range = Guns
5 range = late-game long bows, jump, kikui, earth slash, holy explosion
4 range = all x-bows, early game long bows, elemental, holy, flare
3 range = almost all ranged abilities/spells, harps, books
2 range = spears, sticks, carpet, basic-level defensive spells
1 range = meleeeeeee

QuoteWe should put that typo from 1.3 into effect and allow Counter Magic to be used against Elemental, I think.

Don't think it'll cause too many ripples, and as is counter magic sucks (unless it's on a flotiball~).  Why not?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 22, 2009, 12:18:22 pm
100% Cancel Charging is too good.
Auto chakra sounds interesting, but not interesting enough to replace Auto Potion. You gotta keep auto potion, as it's a great method of self healing and doesn't take into account Fa, MA or PA.
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Post by: philsov on October 22, 2009, 01:30:50 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"100% Cancel Charging is too good.

Possibly.  But half the time if you're caught charging in melee range you're outright killed.  All this does is give the option to other builds not capable of immediate and insane melee damage, and canceling charge is far weaker than outright killing something.

Plus the current dash at 25% cancel charge isn't ever worth doing.

QuoteAuto chakra sounds interesting, but not interesting enough to replace Auto Potion. You gotta keep auto potion, as it's a great method of self healing and doesn't take into account Fa, MA or PA.

indeed, but the kicker with the current form of auto-potion is it still relies on your potion item inventory.  And here's the list of things that potions (or any items, for that matter) can turn into.

01 = 1 * WP damage!
02 = WP*WP damage with 25% chance to cast ability/spell (rigging up potion to cast holy is pretty funny when combined with auto-potion!)
03 = WP*WP damage
04 = weak faith-based ice damage
05 = WP*WP damage, 25% chance to inflict status off status table
06 = drain WP*WP damage
07 = Heal WP*WP
09+ = MA% chance to inflict status/quick/ct00/all health but 1/all MP damage (ew)
14 = Golem (with some pretty funky success #'s)
1E/1F = single-target single-hit with truth or untruth formula (quadratic MA!) damage (440 damage from a mage at level 99)
20 = 0 damage, 25% status proc
24 = elemental formula, [PA / 2] * MA damage + status proc
25 = weapon strike
2D = PA * WP, 100% status
31 = [PA/2] * PA damage
32 = PA*3 damage
33 = PA% chance to inflict (ew)
38 = 100% status infliction
3C = Wish (heal 40%, receive 20% damage)
3E = 100% hp-1 damage (OP!)
43 = Shock (max hp - cur hp damage)
44 = damage HP = current MP (kinda cool, imo, but OP for the player at zodiacs)
45 = Climhazard (targets max - current) damage
52 = self descruct (complete with 100% status) -- imagine auto-potion THEN.
60 = truth formula + 6.25% status
63 = SP*WP damage (throw)


And of these, most of these cause damage or have a crap % chance to work.  Only things worthwhile for auto-potion are 100% status (auto-haste/protect/shell, e.g.), self-wish (really it's a 20% self heal), and the traditional potions, which are going to be 30% anyways.  

Some would be really awesome as special enemy-only counter abilities, like auto self-destruct on a ??? enemy or an auto-MBarrier effect, but I'm not willing to sacrifice Auto-Potion for such a minor thing.

Additionally, I can make the status-curing items also heal a little bit of HP as well, using the Pheonix down formula (rando between 1 and XX HP), which would be another cool little twist to item, as it'll be the only skills that restore status (albeit single target) and restore health (albeit random and non scaling) at the same time.

Auto-chakra is something that can be pulled off with counter tackle, though counter spin fist is too cool not to have.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 22, 2009, 02:09:41 pm
8 range Dispose in this hack seems ridiculous.

I mean, it goes through walls too and has infinite vertical.

Unless you're lowering Worker 8's power (meh) or making his less-than-stellar Speed even more less-than-stellar than it already is.

Auto Remedy sounds cool, but also seems like it wouldn't be used much as the statuses worth using a Remedy on disable Reactions.  Giving status curing Items (read: Remedy, Holy Water) the Phoenix Down HP formula as well seems fine, I think.

Auto Haste seems cool, though potentially OP.  

I had a random idea, though.  Auto Undead.  Not sure how useful it would be, but seems cool and I found myself casting Undead on myself a few times in my regular 1.3 playthrough.

Finger Guard could be replaced by Auto Chakra or something though, imo, if you're going to be lazy and not get someone to make Auto Reflect work.  :(
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Post by: philsov on October 22, 2009, 05:58:12 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"8 range Dispose in this hack seems ridiculous.

Well he can't equip anything with +move, equips or abilities.  It's really no different than a 4 movement gunner, except he's a little more protected.  

Auto-undead is quite unweildy and will cause far more harm than good as a general reaction ability.  Auto-haste is borderline OP.

QuoteFinger Guard could be replaced by Auto Chakra or something though,

Not without ASM, no.  Counter Tackle is hardcoded to use Dash.  Change Dash, change counter tackle.  There is no parellel for something hardcoded to protect against the Talk Skill formula to suddenly turn into an activated ability. It has some ASM potential, though.  Imagine blocking formula 01's thrown at you :)

 I'll probably try my hand at the easy hacks (variable swapping) once the storyline is done -- like somehow changing Caution and Regenerator to be more potent, maybe by inflicting more than one status... or making Br/Fa up actually increment more than a feeble 3.  If it's too cumbersome, then oh well.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 22, 2009, 10:35:35 pm
The only "complain" I have about 100% cancel charging is Bosses, specially Zodiac bosses... most love to charge big stuff. Get a hasted ninja with Dash secondary and you're set..
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Post by: Zeio on October 22, 2009, 11:40:20 pm
that's why you balance them around innate no charge.
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Post by: iopyud on October 23, 2009, 09:06:45 am
Well, my beef on auto potion is it's instant 70% chance to negate 150 damage. Sure, it's Godbless in 1.3 because it's oh-so-easy to reach and damage mages.

All I'm saying is that it needs a little nerf so that other skills will be worthwhile to use during mid-game.

Counter Flood doesn't heal you. Hamedo works only within your weapon range, Damage Split halves damage, sure it's better than auto potion when things hit for 300 but that's endgame and you're always guaranteed to receive damage instead of "If dmg is < 150, then 0 dmglol".

I'm an auto potion whore but that doesn't mean I like it. Heck, I daresay it's broken. It turns mages into freakin' tanks.

As for Caution and Warn, would it be possible for them to give defend and then protect or shell or all of them? Otherwise you're better off with auto potion which negates 150 damage.

I don't mean to sound sarcastic, sorry.

Anyway, how about this:

Potion : Heals 30% HP
Hi-Potion: Heals 60 to 80 HP (I mean literally, the HP healed can be any value from 60 to 80 like axes)
X-Potion: Either discard this or make it unusable by Auto Potion. If that can't be done, It'll heal 50 to 100 HP?

The values have been decreased so how about this:

Give Throw Item an added % heal value. Like... Heal 20% HP. It doesn't matter what your Chemist throws, it heals an added 20% HP.
So that's 30% + 20% HP for Potion and cure status + heal 20% HP for remedy for example.

Is it possible?

Oh, as for Samurai specializing in Draw Out, how about giving them high HPM? That way they can survive jumping in the middle of an angry crowd.
Top that with an improved weapon guard % with Katanas?

On an entirely different note, is this patch for easy type ONLY?
I haven't tried it (easytype) yet despite my whinning. It's STILL hard, right?
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Post by: Zenius on October 23, 2009, 09:53:51 am
Easytype is still moderately difficult
Biggest difference is that the enemies are all party level = less XP gained per action = lower party level
So there's not really a need to hold back your party level and risk getting outequipped

Some battles have been changed and some rare equips removed
(Grog Hill nerfed, Gates of Riovanes back to Archers and Lancers, Zalmo 2 lost Venetian Shield, etc.)
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Post by: philsov on October 23, 2009, 10:02:55 am
Quote from: "Zeio"that's why you balance them around innate no charge.

That would completely change the dynamic of Velius, who in turn is also the most suspectible to Dash.  

But non-charge cyclops?  No, that's too evil.

Looks like it's back to the drawing board.

QuotePotion : Heals 30% HP
Hi-Potion: Heals 60 to 80 HP (I mean literally, the HP healed can be any value from 60 to 80 like axes)
X-Potion: Either discard this or make it unusable by Auto Potion. If that can't be done, It'll heal 50 to 100 HP?

Rando range isn't easily possible.  I had originally thrown up:

Pot = 20 HP / 30% HP
Hi-Pot = 50 HP / 30% HP
X-Pot = 100 HP / 30% HP

Which I'm tempted to keep, at least until a playthrough starts happening and we go from there.

Throw Item support boosting potion effectiveness?  Another ASM idea that got kicked around but code never got posted.  As of right now, no, not possible.

QuoteOh, as for Samurai specializing in Draw Out, how about giving them high HPM? That way they can survive jumping in the middle of an angry crowd.

Well draw out is losing the "hit allies" flag, and past that might get a tweak on personal preference because I don't like the current scheme.  But Samu HP is fine.  They have still have heavy armor, and if you over-extend yourself you deserve to die imo :P

QuoteOn an entirely different note, is this patch for easy type ONLY?

Unless someone else inputs all these changes onto a normal 1.3 or vice versa, yes.  But its difficulty is moderate if you're a FFT vet, but still rather hard if you've played FFT like... once... before.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 23, 2009, 02:33:40 pm
Giving innate no-charge to Zodiacs...? You sure know about balancing dude... >_>

Hey Phil, how about leaving Potion 30HP / 30%HP ? 20HP recovery is far too crappy to waste a turn. That's as much as a guy with a cheap broadsword does just as the game begins.
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Post by: Zeio on October 23, 2009, 03:30:42 pm
QuoteGiving innate no-charge to Zodiacs...? You sure know about balancing dude... >_>

yes, I do.  Reread my post again and you'll understand.

You simply give the zodiacs abilities that aren't overpowered with no charge.  Cyclops does not define Velius in any way, but if you must give him clops just make him his own clops that's balanced around having no charge.

it's really not that hard.  All the Zodiacs have innate no charge in the patch I'm working on and it's managable as long as you know how to build them a solid skillset.

At the end of the day, though,  phil can do whatever he wants.  It just seems really funny to me to see a Lucavi standing around charging (even if it is with short charge) when they're meant to be the almighty evil that destroys everything.
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Post by: philsov on October 23, 2009, 05:38:41 pm
QuoteYou simply give the zodiacs abilities that aren't overpowered with no charge.

Lame!  Cyclops is MEANT to one shot you.  The charge time enables non targeted party members to gtfo.  To soften Velius' blows with a different non-charge summon, that will not one-shot you, makes him a lot easier and devilishly similar to queklain minus their respective status inflictions. To keep him with a large aoe summon that one-shots people, but give Velius non-charge, is simply too much.  

There is no middle ground here.

@Seph, possibly.  They'll stay at 20 for now, once I publish the prelim patch and you take it on a joyride we'll go from there.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 23, 2009, 09:25:34 pm
I now understand what you meant Zeio, but I still have to agree with Phil on this one.
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Post by: Zaen on October 23, 2009, 09:26:52 pm
Or... eliminate Auto Potion. That forces more strategic reactions...
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 23, 2009, 10:48:05 pm
Isn't there some kind of hack that turns Brave into Fury or something, causing it to act like Faith vs physical attacks?

I remember reading about it a while back I think, but my memory's fuzzy.

If I'm remembering it right though, maybe that would be worth including here as well as it would make lower-Brave characters more useful (as mages, at least) instead of making everything 70 Br - X Fa.  It'd also further the use of the Br / Fa modifying moves that are being re-introduced.

EDIT:  I'm also not dropping either the flat growth or Shield on all suggestions, btw.  Just too lazy to run numbers and articulate right now, and would like to play a demo especially before pressing the second one some more.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 23, 2009, 11:14:11 pm
Leave Auto Potion as it is. It's useful to some extent, but with this changes it's not OP at all. Also it's a classic ability!

Brave becoming Fury sounds interesting. If that change was implemented though, we'd have to make Reactions trigger with something else but Brave. Even if having 40 Brave would help me against physical attacks, I don't think I'd ever sacrifice 30% chance for my reaction to trigger. Only useful Reaction would be Abandon.

Flat growths? Meh. Shield on all? No way >_>
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 24, 2009, 03:39:34 am
Quote from: "Sephirot24"Brave becoming Fury sounds interesting. If that change was implemented though, we'd have to make Reactions trigger with something else but Brave. Even if having 40 Brave would help me against physical attacks, I don't think I'd ever sacrifice 30% chance for my reaction to trigger. Only useful Reaction would be Abandon.

Abandon got nixed.

I half agree it may not matter, but do remember it depends on what your reaction ability actually is.  A 50% Auto-Potion on a mage, for example, is okay when they're getting more turns to run and blast something with magic instead of always being in "Auto Potion one hit off or die in two" mode.

Though like I said, I don't remember how this hack (Fury) works entirely.  It may multiply everything by .XX (XX = Br) or 1.XX (XX still = Br), which obvious creates a drastic difference in the end numbers.  It was something I half-remembered randomly and imagined Philsov would know more of to say whether it'd be worth using.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Flat growths? Meh. Shield on all? No way >_>

Think of it this way.

If you get all Special units, you only have room for the four generics.  This means if you want to specialize (say, for the harder Deep Dungeon fights, for the impossible-without-foresight battles he wants to re-add, potentially re-increased difficulty end game, whatever), you either pray the growths on your Specials are good enough to cover your needs, get stuck with inferior stats, or need to boot your generics you used all game and train more to get the better stats, all of which sound like "meh" options.  He said he's toning down the growths, sure, but if the differences are only noticeable beyond a point or two to 99-fanatics anyway, why not make those peoples' lives easier and do flat growths while solving the above problems?  

Much simpler and more logical, imo.  I'd at least say make Speed a flat growth, as its so influential compared to the other stats, but full flat-stat growths really just seems better.  Kills the feel a little, sure, but when the difference is only going to be ~1 PA / MA point and some HP / MP to the "normal" player anyway, why not throw the grinder a bone for once?  Especially for special characters, some of them (Orlandu!) have some really crappy as hell growths and by the time you get them, there's been too much damage from said growths to be undone.  Which kinda blows.

Shields, like I said, not elaborating on that one again until I see some of his hard numbers working in-game.  Once I see how his evasion values stack for myself in-practice, I'll go into it again.  Especially if he can find someone who can ASM the Weapon Guard and Shield Phys-EV stats to be global in the way of C-EV.
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Post by: iopyud on October 24, 2009, 04:33:20 am
Okay, okay how about this:

Make Auto Potion not Brave dependent? Like... fixed at 40%?
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Post by: akwikone on October 24, 2009, 11:03:26 am
Not possable at this point in time, or possably any.  The only way we can alter reaction abilities is by altering certain skills connected to them, like modifing all of the geomancy and there for having counter flood counter with the altered skills, same with counter tackle, and with auto potion we can only alter the the potion items, we can't change the chances to fire unless we set a standerd brave for every character, and that would screw up part of the beauty of this game, it would also make the fury hack kinda pointless(if we're using it that is)...
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Post by: Zaen on October 24, 2009, 11:39:27 am
Auto Potion is just too broken for a balancing patch. It's hard to make it balanced without making Item useless.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on October 24, 2009, 03:53:11 pm
That's not true at all.  Imagine throwing a weak rock at an ally to get some quick healing for no mp cost.  Even if Damage Split might heal more against the enemies at the time, triggering it on weak damage can help make up for it.  It doesn't have to be uber to be useful.
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Post by: iopyud on October 24, 2009, 06:56:22 pm
*Glares at Auto Potion*

This isn't over.
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Post by: philsov on October 24, 2009, 11:44:33 pm
Quote from: "Zaen"Or... eliminate Auto Potion. That forces more strategic reactions...

How is auto potion any more or less strategic than the other reaction abilities?

QuoteIsn't there some kind of hack that turns Brave into Fury or something, causing it to act like Faith vs physical attacks?

Yes.  But I have no plans to implement it.  

I admit it's rather cheap that there is no downside to high br (worse move-finds, oh noes), but here's some copy/paste:

QuoteThe formula added at the end of all calculations is: (40+Caster_Fury)*(40+Target_Fury)*Total_Damage/10000
      Basically 72 BFury will make your hits will be at 112% strength as well as your damage received.

In short, at 60 Br to 60 Br is the same as before.  At 70 to 70, the damage is at 120%.  Heaven forbid TG Cid walking into the picture.  I'd need to rebalance everything, which I have absolutely no desire to do.  It's a pretty cool concept, but too far out in left field for this project.

QuoteIt's hard to make it balanced without making Item useless

Yeah, it's not like elixirs become farmable once x-potion loses its potency :roll:
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Post by: Zaen on October 25, 2009, 03:16:39 pm
Oh.. right. Elixer. Farming.. bleh.

On the fury concept, unarmed Ramza in Mandalia with that 80 Fury is St. Ajoraly, so yeah. Lots of balancing issues with it. Monks become uber, as do Knight Swords and Katanas.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 25, 2009, 10:51:24 pm
yeah, fury doesn't really work with recursive brave values on damage formulas, it's too bad because as a concept, it's pretty awesome
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 25, 2009, 11:20:54 pm
Quote from: "philsov"I admit it's rather cheap that there is no downside to high br (worse move-finds, oh noes), but here's some copy/paste:

QuoteThe formula added at the end of all calculations is: (40+Caster_Fury)*(40+Target_Fury)*Total_Damage/10000
      Basically 72 BFury will make your hits will be at 112% strength as well as your damage received.

In short, at 60 Br to 60 Br is the same as before.  At 70 to 70, the damage is at 120%.  Heaven forbid TG Cid walking into the picture.  I'd need to rebalance everything, which I have absolutely no desire to do.  It's a pretty cool concept, but too far out in left field for this project.

...Can't you merely alter the 40+ that's used in the formula to something like 30 by altering the hack slightly?
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Post by: philsov on October 26, 2009, 11:44:31 am
Possibly.  But everything would still need to be rejuggled.  

Seriously:

option 1: Take X damage, have a 70% chance to recover 30% health
option 2: Take 43% less than X damage, have a 40% chance to recover 30% health.

Just waltz in with low brave, defensive setups, and status out the yin-yang (pun intended).

Yes, I'm aware the same situation is present with Faith, but a) from the looks of it, fury stacks WITH faith -- 40 Br and 40 Fa is a turtle and b) the enemy is more stacked towards physical attacks over magic in the first place, so the variation with faith regarding damage taken is less of an issue.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 26, 2009, 02:00:57 pm
yeah, something like having the absolute max varience be +/- 25% for 100 and 0 brave respectively (so 100 on 100 is +50%, and 0 on 0 is -50%). Alternatively, instead of making it all physical attacks, introduce a new ability formula that acts like faith based magic, only working off of PA and relative brave.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 26, 2009, 07:56:39 pm
Too much hassle for something that we don't need, and most people will never sacrifice 30% chance of some reaction triggering. IMO anyways..

EDIT: OK, how about this: reaction abilities now have (Br+Fa)/2 % chance of triggering. If that were possible, I wouldn't have a problem with this "fury" hack implemented.

Max chance would still be 70 and lowest would still be 40. Still some kind of punishment for using tank units with low Br / Fa, and reward for high Br / Fa ones.
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Post by: iopyud on October 28, 2009, 08:37:43 am
I know you guys still haven't finished talking about Brave but I have a few items I want to address:

1.) Equip Bow - I heard this will allow you to equip longbows as well? The only reason I use archers is because of their Bow capability. Letting everyone use a Bow will make archers obsolete.

2.) Auto Potion - Yeah, you have a point about that % heal.
How's
Potion = 30 HP
Hi - Pot = 50 HP
X - Pot = 30% HP

A unit with 400 HP will auto pot 120 HP.

3.) Brave - Is it possible to make it "any physical damage + Your own brave value / 2" to punish high Br units instead?
Or maybe you could just give everyone 60 lowest Br and 70 highest Br.

Sorry if my suggestions seem stupid 'cuz I lack FFT coding literacy.
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Post by: Aquilae on October 28, 2009, 09:05:35 am
Unless you make less reactions Brave-dependent, people are still going to go for high Brave instead of low Brave. The only two reactions that aren't Brave-dependent are Abandon and Weapon Guard, and most of the time they are inferior to the myriad of other reactions based on Brave. Hamedo, Arrow Guard and Auto-Potion are some of the best R-Abilities, and I wouldn't want a 40% activation chanve / evasion bonus.
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Post by: Shade on October 28, 2009, 09:11:55 am
X-Potion should be able to heal atleast half of hp, that means 50%.
30% is very bad with some that has 300 hp and isn't a armored guy means at the point you are those guys with do 150+ damage to your FACE.

As reaction ability it's ok, but since it would be a normal potion it would suck alot.
Also the fact that most of times you would using the normal auto-potion for the weakest characters, but after that change the weakest characters have to use dragon spirit, hp restore, critical quick, damage split..

so it's seems a kinda bad idea putting 30% only.
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Post by: iopyud on October 28, 2009, 09:41:18 am
I see.

I was kind of thinking glass cannons wouldn't be so vulnerable since movement has been decreased.
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Post by: philsov on October 28, 2009, 03:38:51 pm
Quote1.) Equip Bow - I heard this will allow you to equip longbows as well? The only reason I use archers is because of their Bow capability. Letting everyone use a Bow will make archers obsolete.

An archer with attack up or concentrate is far better than any other unit with equip bow and a longbow.

Quote30% is very bad with some that has 300 hp and isn't a armored guy means at the point you are those guys with do 150+ damage to your FACE.

You mean you'll actually have to HEAL now?  A reaction ability can't simply NEGATE ALL DAMAGE?!?  It completely dwarves Regenerator and HP restore and that's perfectly fine?!?

No, sorry.  50% is way too good.  If you want that, get damage split.  At least damage split doesn't self-correct.

~

Anyways!  How's about some epic hats?  Armored people get grand helmet and genji, while clothies get black hood, thief hat, and flash hat?  Laaaaame.  Cashua and barette are getting gutted and reshaped~
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 28, 2009, 04:22:00 pm
Quote from: "philsov"You mean you'll actually have to HEAL now?  A reaction ability can't simply NEGATE ALL DAMAGE?!?  It completely dwarves Regenerator and HP restore and that's perfectly fine?!?

I actually think the fact Regenerator and HP Restore exist justifies removing Auto Potion entirely, as instant respectable heal after most attacks is going to dwarf those two in most non-specialized cases, and also dwarf Damage Split a deal of the time as it'll often heal more in situations where HP Restore doesn't get a situational win over Auto Potion anyway.

Does Auto Potion work the way Counter Tackle does in that it references a move (well, in this case, a tree of moves), or is it hard coded to specifically reference Potions or whatever?  If it's the former, I think we have some moves to dick around with.

Quote from: "philsov"Anyways!  How's about some epic hats?  Armored people get grand helmet and genji, while clothies get black hood, thief hat, and flash hat?  Laaaaame.  Cashua and barette are getting gutted and reshaped~

Does that mean Ribbons will be easier to get to compensate for lack of Barettes mid-game?

I like the idea.  I've always hated Equips that are just weaker versions of other equips unless they're meant to be early game (Chapter 1-2) items.  Which is why I like how 1.3 addressed later Heavy Armors and Helmets and actually wish they'd gone further down the Armor tree than Circlet / Carabini Mail.  There are many viable clothes, but so few viable armors in comparison unless you count the two rare sets (and even then...).
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Post by: philsov on October 28, 2009, 05:10:40 pm
QuoteDoes Auto Potion work the way Counter Tackle does in that it references a move (well, in this case, a tree of moves), or is it hard coded to specifically reference Potions or whatever? If it's the former, I think we have some moves to dick around with.

I'm... not seeing a difference between the two.  Warning, completely arbitrary values ahoy.

Counter Tackle is hardcoded towards ability Dash - 5F.  So I make 5F have an AoE ability with spin fist formual (basically, make it spin fist), move 5F from the squire skillset into the monk skillset, and then take the real spin fist (62) to act just like the old dash and no one will know the difference.  When I get around to it and actually input a lot of these changes for pre-lim testing, counter spin fist may still be single target.  I dunno.  But that's the coding process, anyways.

Similarly, auto-potion is hardcoded towards using abilites 78, 79, and 7A (pot, hi pot, x pot), specifically on one's self.  But abilities in that range of code are forced as items, so the wiggle room there is dreadfully small -- I can't just adopt a new ability (cure2 e.g.) and be done with it.  To change the items, that's a function in the Item tab of fftpatcher, where the potions (or any Item) can adopt a new formula, specifically one that can survive with a X or Y value of 0.  I've posted the table twice already in the thread, check it out to so what can be done with Item/auto-potion.

As far as "auto-potion" goes, it can become:

- auto self-heal (x% via asm hack, absolute figure, or 20% via wonky self-wish)
- auto self-status (obviously requires status-inflicting item to be in stock + status-inflicting item is 100% success so can't be something ridiculous or stepping on the toes of other classes.  Auto haste would be cool but a time mage having a consumable reaction?  bleh)

because everything else is either a complete crap shoot (PA% or MA% to do something) or deals damage, neither of which is worthwhile as a reaction.

QuoteDoes that mean Ribbons will be easier to get to compensate for lack of Barettes mid-game?

What midgame barettes?  The single one the game hands you with alma?  That never got equipped except on a female monk (lol) because monks can't equip a real piece of head armor?  Via poaching, ribbons are available the same time barettes are.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 28, 2009, 06:03:27 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Similarly, auto-potion is hardcoded towards using abilites 78, 79, and 7A (pot, hi pot, x pot), specifically on one's self.  But abilities in that range of code are forced as items, so the wiggle room there is dreadfully small -- I can't just adopt a new ability (cure2 e.g.) and be done with it.

That's what I was asking, as I don't believe you clarified Auto Potion as being limited to the Item skillset only in terms of switching.

We really need to go beat the shit out of a codemonkey, stuff him in a cave, and make him ASM Auto Potion into something that's not Item-based.

I'd do it myself, but I'm busy enough usually.

Quote from: "philsov"What midgame barettes?  The single one the game hands you with alma?  That never got equipped except on a female monk (lol) because monks can't equip a real piece of head armor?  Via poaching, ribbons are available the same time barettes are.

iirc, there's at least one more of them available in 1.3, unless it was removed again for Easytype.  But you're right, it isn't that big a deal,  I suppose.  I never used either of them enough for a loss of a Barette or two to bother me.  But will that mean Alma now comes with a Ribbon, or with one of these new Hats, or some random generic hat?
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Post by: Archael on October 28, 2009, 07:13:56 pm
Auto - Potion ---> Auto Cure

just a level 1 cure spell
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Post by: iopyud on October 29, 2009, 07:47:48 am
My initial suggestion was Auto Potion -> Auto Cure 2.

Philsov didn't like it but I still think it's a good idea. At least your MP gets screwed and you have to do some tweaking when it comes to armored units who normally have low MP.

Really, why not give this a second thought? Even Arch suggested it.

I stand corrected/informed about the Equip Bow issue.

And I'm fine with Epic Hats as long as they're not custom items.
I prefer a hack that sticks with vanilla.
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Post by: philsov on October 29, 2009, 10:13:11 am
Maybe if either of you, preferably both, read my last post, you'd understand what I'm saying.

QuoteAnd I'm fine with Epic Hats as long as they're not custom items.
I prefer a hack that sticks with vanilla.

Uh... can you expand on that?
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Post by: Archael on October 29, 2009, 10:28:02 am
I read entire thread

haven't seen a single valid argument against Auto Cure

(Cure 1 btw, not 2)

it doesn't heal much, it heals only self, and would only be good on units with decent faith / MA

meaning no 40 faith melee tanks will be getting much use from it
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Post by: iopyud on October 29, 2009, 10:34:40 am
Nevermind, Phil. Disregard that. I thought you were planning on adding new hats instead of overhauling some of the existing ones.

Moving on, Auto Cure will then be moar suited to casters that way.

Really, all of my units in 1.3 have Auto Pot. It's like... the Blade Grasp of 1.3 or something... at least early-mid game.

Anyway, were you talking about this?

Quote01 = 1 * WP damage!
02 = WP*WP damage with 25% chance to cast ability/spell (rigging up potion to cast holy is pretty funny when combined with auto-potion!)
03 = WP*WP damage
04 = weak faith-based ice damage
05 = WP*WP damage, 25% chance to inflict status off status table
06 = drain WP*WP damage
07 = Heal WP*WP
09+ = MA% chance to inflict status/quick/ct00/all health but 1/all MP damage (ew)
14 = Golem (with some pretty funky success #'s)
1E/1F = single-target single-hit with truth or untruth formula (quadratic MA!) damage (440 damage from a mage at level 99)
20 = 0 damage, 25% status proc
24 = elemental formula, [PA / 2] * MA damage + status proc
25 = weapon strike
2D = PA * WP, 100% status
31 = [PA/2] * PA damage
32 = PA*3 damage
33 = PA% chance to inflict (ew)
38 = 100% status infliction
3C = Wish (heal 40%, receive 20% damage)
3E = 100% hp-1 damage (OP!)
43 = Shock (max hp - cur hp damage)
44 = damage HP = current MP (kinda cool, imo, but OP for the player at zodiacs)
45 = Climhazard (targets max - current) damage
52 = self descruct (complete with 100% status) -- imagine auto-potion THEN.
60 = truth formula + 6.25% status
63 = SP*WP damage (throw)


And of these, most of these cause damage or have a crap % chance to work.  Only things worthwhile for auto-potion are 100% status (auto-haste/protect/shell, e.g.), self-wish (really it's a 20% self heal), and the traditional potions, which are going to be 30% anyways.  

I thought it(Auto Cure) was possible since you can make something like Auto Spin Fist.

I'm sleepy and I feel sick. I'm off.
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Post by: philsov on October 29, 2009, 11:07:13 am
Quotehaven't seen a single valid argument against Auto Cure

Mechanically impossible at this time.

QuoteAnyway, were you talking about this?

More or less, yeah.  That's the list of things Potion can turn in to, and most of them would actually harm the user of auto-potion.
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Post by: Archael on October 29, 2009, 11:37:31 am
how is it mechanically impossible?

you just ASM it
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Post by: philsov on October 29, 2009, 11:48:19 am
Right.  Silly me.  I'll get right on that.

Any additional ASM hacks will be coming in once I'm done with all the event editing and preliminary patcher changes.  For now, AP is staying as planned.
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Post by: SolidSnakeDog on October 29, 2009, 12:51:26 pm
if you ever found a way to change Auto-potion to something esle call me out.
In my projet, Auto-Potion is bugged big time for me and needs to be changed...
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Post by: philsov on October 30, 2009, 12:15:38 am
ok, I've starting inputting and toying with some of these changes...

Counter Spin Fist will need to shift somehow.  In order to actually activate, the Spin Fist ability needs to have at least 1 range, which means the radius will also need to be decreased.  The final effect will be something akin to a plus formation, with the targetted enemy in the center, and then all 4 panels around it affected as well, with the caster obviously immune to it.  We can call it Exploding Fist or something.  

Any alternate suggestions?
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 30, 2009, 01:25:53 am
Counter Smile - attempts to charm opposite gender attackers (basically via deliberate wardrobe 'malfunction')

Yoink! - when attacked in melee, respond by attempting to steal the opponent's weapon

Counter Wave - when under tension (attack), respond with an enhanced Wave Fist (range 4, area 1v1)
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Post by: Asmo X on October 30, 2009, 01:58:09 am
Have you guys tried editing reactions this way yet? I seem to remember trying something like it ages ago and finding that editing Dash created a buggy Counter Tackle and editing Regen did nothing to Regenerator.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2009, 03:31:28 am
Quote from: "philsov"ok, I've starting inputting and toying with some of these changes...

Counter Spin Fist will need to shift somehow.  In order to actually activate, the Spin Fist ability needs to have at least 1 range, which means the radius will also need to be decreased.  The final effect will be something akin to a plus formation, with the targetted enemy in the center, and then all 4 panels around it affected as well, with the caster obviously immune to it.  We can call it Exploding Fist or something.  

Any alternate suggestions?

Counter Wave Fist, put simply.

Make it able to Counter a variety of attacks that could hit it within its 3 panel range (I'm pretty sure it can't Counter outside the range anyway, iirc?), so that its a ranged, weaker version of Counter that can be chosen for versatility instead of power.

With less mobility, the fact it'll mostly be weaker than Counter won't stop it from being unused since it allows you to run and heal while still doing some kind of Counter-based damage.  At worst, it'd be a poor man's Damage Split (in terms of ranged buffer damage on an enemy, not healing) for physical units while giving Monks / Martial Arts users a special Reaction to give them a bit of a leg up against Two Swords / Two Hands users, as they'd be the only ones truly outputting higher level damage with it.
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Post by: iopyud on October 30, 2009, 07:45:29 am
Counter Secret Fist for me.
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Post by: philsov on October 30, 2009, 09:38:26 am
QuoteHave you guys tried editing reactions this way yet? I seem to remember trying something like it ages ago and finding that editing Dash created a buggy Counter Tackle and editing Regen did nothing to Regenerator.

Dicked around with Dash + Counter Tackle last night.  The buggiest aspect regarding counter spin fist was the animation, which basically was Ramza flying all over the place in a leaping dash onto all the people (think Poison Nail + Dash, on multiple targets), and then with a few other animations it'd only display damage output onto one enemy despite actually damaging several.  But in terms of actual effect, no bugs encountered.

Regarding hopeful hacks to Br/Fa up, regenerator, and such, no, I haven't even trying to hard hack those yet.  At my current skill level it's literally needle in a haystack guesswork until I can locate where the reactions are in Battle.bin (probably the large chunk separated by 00's prior to the support section, thanks Nate <3), and then from there what is what in the first place.  I'm sure there should be a utility or two that'll help me out in the endeavor, but the current plan when I actually get to that step is to change all 03's to different values until said number pops up with Br/Fa up.  But again hopefully by that point I'll have lurked around enough to have a better method.

@suggestions:

Counter Smile - pretty cool, but Br% chance to work, gender check, AND % to actually charm?  too rng for tastes.

Yoink! - that sounds pretty cool, actually.  Less random without the gender check, and more fitting, battle wise.  Maybe Disarm?  Caution can be shifted over to Monk anyways.

Counter Wave - too similar to counter flood, methinks.  If AoE I'd prefer it to be melee-range only.

Counter Wave fist - Variable-range counter, which then gets extended to... book/harp/spear/stick/carpet melee + swordskills.  

Counter Secret Fist - another good idea.  While both this and Steal Weapon are hardly worth using as action abilities, having them as counters really turns the table.  

Grah, torn.  I'll think on it some more.  Still open to more suggestions.

Edit:  Katana Breaking sucks, doesn't it?  I can hax them up to have a 0% (maybe) or 1% (surely) break rate, except the rares which I can ramp up to like 50/100% if so desired -- don't forget the player is outright handed 5 or 6 in the deep dungeon.  Sound good?  What's a good rate for the rare ones?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2009, 01:39:29 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Yoink! - that sounds pretty cool, actually.  Less random without the gender check, and more fitting, battle wise.  Maybe Disarm?  Caution can be shifted over to Monk anyways.

Blade Snatch, for the lolpun?  I do like the idea of this one as well.

Quote from: "philsov"Counter Wave fist - Variable-range counter, which then gets extended to... book/harp/spear/stick/carpet melee + swordskills.

Pretty much, kind of like a single-target Counter Flood for PA-oriented units.  That's kinda the intent at least, as (iirc) even a Martial Arts boosted Wave Fist does slightly less than a straight Counter from the same unit... and it's a Counter-type move that isn't boosted by Two Swords / Two Hands, giving it far less max damage potential than standard Counter for the range it gains.

Quote from: "philsov"Counter Secret Fist - another good idea.  While both this and Steal Weapon are hardly worth using as action abilities, having them as counters really turns the table.

Agreed, this could be cool as well.

Quote from: "philsov"Edit:  Katana Breaking sucks, doesn't it?  I can hax them up to have a 0% (maybe) or 1% (surely) break rate, except the rares which I can ramp up to like 50/100% if so desired -- don't forget the player is outright handed 5 or 6 in the deep dungeon.  Sound good?  What's a good rate for the rare ones?

Lowering the break rate on the more common one sounds good.  Battles are supposed to not end in 1-2 turns in this version of the game, so farming up the cash to get large amounts of every Katana and stay fitted out seems like it'd be a really tedious bit of meta-difficulty for anyone using Draw Out.  As for the rarer Katanas, I think the 50/100 is a bit too high, as it makes it a requirement to go into Deep Dungeon and Move-Find Item like hell in a game where even the best Move-Finder can't break 4-ish Move to even try using the abilities, and Chirijiraden was further debuffed in Easytype anyway.  You still need to Move-Find Item a single Chirijiraden to use it regardless, I suppose, but it still seems kinda silly.

Idk, 50%+ just seems a bit too high for my tastes.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on October 30, 2009, 04:26:21 pm
I say 1% (lol) for the normal ones, and 20% for the rare ones, that is if you can't hack the Fur Shop so we can buy them back. If you can re-buy them from the Fur shop, then 100% is fine for Chiri and Masa, 1 shot every match (if you only had 1).

Counter Steal Weapon (Disarm) sounds too awesome with 70% chance. If it's 70% chance of triggering AND then normal chance of stealing then it's fine though. Counter wave and Counter wave fist sound meh IMO.
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Post by: iopyud on October 31, 2009, 03:23:35 am
Quote from: "philsov"Dicked around with Dash + Counter Tackle last night.  The buggiest aspect regarding counter spin fist was the animation, which basically was Ramza flying all over the place in a leaping dash onto all the people (think Poison Nail + Dash, on multiple targets), and then with a few other animations it'd only display damage output onto one enemy despite actually damaging several.  But in terms of actual effect, no bugs encountered.

That's awesome. Change it to "Counter Ninjaaaaah"

Jokes aside.

1.) For Caution I can't remember if I said it before but would it be possible to add Protect/Shell status along with Defend?
Nobody uses this skill. It should be at least, on par with Auto Cure or something.

2.) Regenerator should also come with Esuna when it procs or at least Defend status...

3.) I suggested Dash to have a 100% Cancellation effect. Would it be possible to add -1 PA or -1 MA along with it? That way, you'd think twice when attacking someone with Counter Tackle.

4.) Meatbone Slash is a severely restricted skill. How about making it activate once HP is below 50%?

5.) Nobody uses Steal Gil. This needs a buff. I propose a Confusion effect that triggers around 25 to 50%. Or drop the Gil part and call it Steal Sanity.

6.) Steal EXP - I'm pretty sure nobody uses this. Is it possible to turn this into Steal CT? Either you steal 20 CT from the enemy or you CT00 him while CT100ing yourself.
Another suggestion is Steal Speed - Him Slow, you Haste.

7.) Gilgame Heart's retarded. Unless you put it on your Lv. 1 training dummy. Is it possible to make this work like... it turns half of the damage you receive into Gil?
Think Damage Split, you heal 50% of the damage, but the other 50% turns into Gil instead. Maybe dick around with Gilgame and Damage Split. Heck, the Gil part doesn't even have to be 50% damage.
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Post by: philsov on October 31, 2009, 11:12:57 am
Quote20% for the rare ones, that is if you can't hack the Fur Shop so we can buy them back.

Can't be bought back =\.

QuoteCounter Steal Weapon (Disarm) sounds too awesome with 70% chance. If it's 70% chance of triggering AND then normal chance of stealing then it's fine though.

Yeah, it'd trigger the Steal Weapon ability.

Quote1.) For Caution I can't remember if I said it before but would it be possible to add Protect/Shell status along with Defend?

Not with my current (complete lack of) skill level.  From my understanding, the easiest level of hacks are single-byte swapping, which limits stuff like regenerator + caution to also inflict status that's around them, program wise.

Which means, I can "easily" pair up Caution's defending with...... crystal, dead, undead, charging, Jump, and performing.  Now, of these Jump is the only one that sounds remotely cool, but the kicker is YOU NEVER COME DOWN.    Technically you never take off either, the inflicted unit just sits there, graphically, for the rest of the fight.  Lame.  Anyways, I think caution might be worth more in this patch due to the innate weapon guard and class evasion (both of which get doubled, even if you're without shield/mantle) and reduced damage, but at this time I'm going to declare it lost and gone.

Regenerator at least has some hope.  Regen's grouped up with Poison (lol), Protect, Shell, Haste, Slow, Stop, and Wall.  So whenever I get that horrible step, I can rig up Protect + Regen, possibly.  

Quote3.) I suggested Dash to have a 100% Cancellation effect. Would it be possible to add -1 PA or -1 MA along with it? That way, you'd think twice when attacking someone with Counter Tackle.

tbh I don't know if I want it with 100% cancellation, but I don't think there's a formula to support that.  And then for the cherry counter tackle is going away anyways :p.

Quote4.) Meatbone Slash is a severely restricted skill. How about making it activate once HP is below 50%?

That only possible if I increase the "critical" range of units to 50%.  Great for HP restore and such, absolutely horrible for AI playability.  Everything running away at 50% health?  Nah.

Quote5.) Nobody uses Steal Gil. This needs a buff. I propose a Confusion effect that triggers around 25 to 50%. Or drop the Gil part and call it Steal Sanity.

the gil part would have to be dropped, but I don't think anyone will miss it.    It'd be a pretty cool buddy for Steal Heart -- something to use on people of your own gender.  

Quote6.) Steal EXP - I'm pretty sure nobody uses this. Is it possible to turn this into Steal CT? Either you steal 20 CT from the enemy or you CT00 him while CT100ing yourself.
Another suggestion is Steal Speed - Him Slow, you Haste.

Again, restricted to current formula, which don't allow that.  Steal Speed has some potential, but that's variable target which is rather impossible.

Quote7.) Gilgame Heart's retarded. Unless you put it on your Lv. 1 training dummy. Is it possible to make this work like... it turns half of the damage you receive into Gil?

Probably not, but when I start messing with that stuff I'll keep an eye out for it.

Great ideas, I just wish some of them could be implemented =\
Title:
Post by: Zaen on October 31, 2009, 01:14:11 pm
If Steal Exp is useless.. turn it into an ability for another class. That, or give the thief an attack skill or something.
Title:
Post by: philsov on October 31, 2009, 03:45:09 pm
sure.  I can throw it toward the mediator pool of Br/Fa modification.

Another snag with the new hopeful counter tackle.  The steal weapon effect (and break weapon, for that matter) are hardcoded to their ability slots.  Until I can find and possibly change which ability counter tackle enables, counter tackle will be counter secret fist.  Conversely secret fist will also get increased up to 2 vert tol.  

Also!  Finally worked out the new growth numbers!  They got normalized slightly. Everyone shares the same speed growth rates.

In general:  Fighters get higher PA, HP.  Mages get higher MA, MP growth.   The resulting gap is roughly the same as the male/female gap, so a male caster and female fighter will result in about the same PA/MA/HP/MP.

Armored Fighters have increased HP over their clothy breatheren, at the expense of 1 PA point at 99.  Status mages (Oracle, Time Mage, Priest) have increased MP over their blasty brothers (Wizards, Summoners, Sages, Mediators, Bards) at the expense of 1 MA at 99.  Squires and chemists are the halfway points between the armored/clothed and status/blasters, respectively.  Mimes are the best of all worlds.  Regarding specials:

Ramza, Reis: Mime
Agrias, TG Cid, Beo:  Armored fighter
Musty, Malak, Cloud: Cloth fighter
Rafa: Blaster
Byblos, Worker 8: unique table

Below is a stat table.  Note the values are for with 100-110 multipliers, so for classes with larger multipliers, the gaps may be more pronounced.
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Post by: Zaen on October 31, 2009, 10:17:47 pm
Why are Mediators considered Blast? They're Status. The only thing they get to make them "Blasty" would be Guns. Bards are more Status, as well. I mean, they're like a Priest and a Time Mage combined.
Title:
Post by: philsov on October 31, 2009, 10:58:14 pm
it's more from a practical angle; they don't use MP.  And I don't want to create too many subclasses.
Title:
Post by: Sephirot24 on November 01, 2009, 12:50:45 am
That's freaking great phil!! No heavy growth punishment, but still some reward for changing between a specific tree along the way. No speed punishment, sweet :)
Title:
Post by: iopyud on November 01, 2009, 08:19:53 am
Speaking of Worker 8, is he getting a boost?

I really love him but I heard that he sucks in 1.3...

"I. AM. VERY. STRONG!"
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Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 09:48:17 am
he can.  

hmmm...

a little more HP, move HP-up and no longer immune to haste/regen/protect/shell/reraise?  Move HP-up is the big one, he should be able to Dispose all the live long day.
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Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 11:56:08 am
GODDAMN MOTHWERWER@#$@#$%@#%^@ RFWF

The potion % heal ASM hack crashes in epsxe -_-.  

So... back to the drawing board.  

I've just spent the past hour+ changing values in SCUS trying to even locate the reaction ability cluster.  I really think the stuff I'm looking for it there and not battle.bin.  Still, there's got to be a better way to do this instead of carpet bomb a section with find -> replace and hope the thing you're looking for changes -- without crashing the game in the process.  Because the status-inflict reactions of Regenerator, Caution, Dragon Spirit, and Sunken State could all use some lovin imo.  Alas.

But in the meantime and in case it never gets found, what can we do with auto-potion?  The standard healing potions can easily shift over to other item slots.  So... once again looking for ideas with auto-potion.  The item used for AP doesn't even need to be otherwise accessible to the Item skilset.  

- 20% self heal
- auto Protect
- auto Shell
- auto Haste + Berserk :)

comments/suggestions?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 01, 2009, 12:26:39 pm
- 30% self heal ('cmon! Damage split is 50% slef heal + damage to the enemy)
Auto Protect or Auto Shell are good too. While Auto-Haste+Berserk sounds good IMO, it'd be best to replace AP with some ability that achieves the same goal, which is protecting / healing the user.
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Post by: SolidSnakeDog on November 01, 2009, 02:59:26 pm
Haste+Bersserk
This is bad. I myself will never use it.
Berserk lasts forever but not haste, so this will hurt the player more that anything.
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Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 05:46:09 pm
yeah, we'll go with the 20% self heal.

Now... to wade through the ENTD and remove/fix everything that needs too :(
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 01, 2009, 06:28:44 pm
When you say 20% you mean 20% of the damage received or 20% of max HP? If it's max HP then it's ok... though it'll be super weak on early levels.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 06:40:36 pm
Quote from: "philsov"a little more HP, move HP-up and no longer immune to haste/regen/protect/shell/reraise?  Move HP-up is the big one, he should be able to Dispose all the live long day.

Keep him Immune to everything.  You can theoretically justify Haste / Protect / Shell if they're added using non-Faith abilities, but then you'd also need to make him at least vulnerable to Slow, probably a couple other random things for logical consistency.

Move-HP UP maybe, iirc he has Defense UP already.  You could give him Item secondary and / or Fly the way the enemy Steel Giants have it (at least in regular 1.3).

Hell, I've always thought Worker 8 should mirror the Steel Giants you fight against in 1.3 in the first place because of how relatively weak he is compared to Humans or even straight monsters combined with Monster Skill.  So in the scope of this game, that'd be... Item Secondary, Fly, Defense UP, but no Move-HP UP (and in the scope of what this hack wants to do, no Move +X)?  Item secondary and Fly combined with lowered Speed and Move ranges on all the other units in the game (thus lowering how damaging being immune to Haste is) should make him pretty damn useful, I would think.

As for Auto-Potion... IDK.  20-25% Self-heal seems best for right now, I suppose.
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Post by: iopyud on November 01, 2009, 06:43:57 pm
Sounds great.

Worker 8 should still be immune to magic/buffs/debuffs, but how about giving him innate Protect/Shell OR Haste OR Regen?
Might sound over powered but it's to compensate for his lack of job changing abilities. (He's not flexible so he better be a damn powerful tank).

BTW, shouldn't Hell Knight get more MA? Unless it's more of a physical class...
Heaven Knight on the other hand should have innate 2 Hands like its counterpart.
Hey, I mean their skills are random fuckage.

20% Auto Heal... Sounds good.
1.) It's not as easy to gang up on enemies anymore thanks to reduced move speed.
2.) It no longer negates damage but still reduces them.
3.) Use kickass animation where the user jumps on everyone on the map.

On movement, are you taking out Move + 2 and 3?
I have Move + 3 on my chars, it covers almost half of them damn map.

Finally, later on we should have quirky enemy set ups that doesn't do 400 x 2 Riovanes Hell Knight damage but makes you go "lol wtf AI = 1, me = 0.".
Like... maybe Secret Fist on Algus.

Algus: OMFG U R WEPN BRAEK?!1 ATATATATA.... you are already dead.

EDIT: You know, if Dispose... or that Homing Laser thing still have that great range in this reduced movement patch, maybe... just maybe, giving Worker 8 an extra speed point and increasing its power will be a good buff.

And @Raven about Worker 8 mirroring other Steel Giants. NO. Worker 8 should be more powerful. He's Worker Fucking 8. STEEL GIANT. STEEL FUCKING GIANT.

Dude HE.AM.VERY.STRONG.

Heck his abilities should have freakin' quotes on them.

Drill: "Genuflect before the drill that pierced the heavens."

Dispose (That shoot thing) :"Executing Overlord Ramza's order. Targeting with extreme prejuduce."

That Hammer Thing: "Return to the light."
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 06:53:23 pm
Quote from: "iopyud"EDIT: You know, if Dispose... or that Homing Laser thing still have that great range in this reduced movement patch, maybe... just maybe, giving Worker 8 an extra speed point and increasing its power will be a good buff.

And @Raven about Worker 8 mirroring other Steel Giants. NO. Worker 8 should be more powerful. He's Worker Fucking 8. STEEL GIANT. STEEL FUCKING GIANT.

Dude HE.AM.VERY.STRONG.

Philsov wants things SLOWER.  Not FASTER.  Everything else became SLOWER.  So Worker 8's Speed is better relatively, unless Philsov lowered his speed as well.

Also, go fight some 1.3 Steel Giants.  THEY. AM. VERY. STRONG.

Plus, Worker 8 is just an android like every other android.  There's really nothing special about him when compared to Worker 7 or any of the random encounter Steel Giants.  Absolutely nothing, besides the fact he joins your side instead of nuking your medieval ass with lazorzes.  THEY. ALL. AM. VERY. STRONG. THEY. ALL. AM. SAME. MODEL.

Machines don't get randomly more powerful because they join your team.  Nor do they get randomly far shittier.  Hence why all the Steel Giants in 1.3 (and in here) should be the same, imo.  They're all the exact same model of the exact same machine, aged for (relatively) the same amount of time.
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Post by: iopyud on November 01, 2009, 06:58:51 pm
You break my dreams and heart. </3

Robot needs love... just because they think it doesn't have a heart... doesn't mean he can't love.

Jokes aside:
I acknowledge your point about the Workers being identical should perform the same, but that aside...

What about my theory about Dispose's range? He should be able to get a few strong shots even without increased speed before things get close. Kinda like artillery support.

EDIT:

Hold on.

20% Heal is just 80 on a 400 HP unit. (Hi Potion lol)
25% like stated would heal 100. (OK, sounds good)

On the other hand. My mages ATM have like 300 HP so that's...
60 HP for 20% and 75 HP for 25%.

I vote for 25% if it's possible.
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Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 07:23:28 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"When you say 20% you mean 20% of the damage received or 20% of max HP? If it's max HP then it's ok... though it'll be super weak on early levels.

20% max HP.  Since the %potion ASM hack crashes the game, and the author is regretably long gone, "potion" is simply assuming the old Wish formula -- heal target for 40% of your max health, deal 20% max health back to yourself.  Since it applies to auto-potion, the net effect is a 20% base heal whenever you get take damage.  I'm calling it First Aid (?) and doing some lame coverup in its description on why it hurts the person immediately after healing them.  So it can't be 30% or 25%.  It's stuck at 20.

Normal potion/hipot/xpot are now in the slots of the old antidote/eye drop/echo grass, complete with their old graphic and old 30/70/150 healing scheme.  Once in game no one can tell the difference, save the new ability that replaces auto-potion and heals the user for 40% and then hurts them for 20%.

QuoteKeep him Immune to everything. You can theoretically justify Haste / Protect / Shell if they're added using non-Faith abilities, but then you'd also need to make him at least vulnerable to Slow, probably a couple other random things for logical consistency.

Draw Out and Sing for starters, but understood.  I'll make him immune to less as well.

QuoteMove-HP UP maybe, iirc he has Defense UP already. You could give him Item secondary and / or Fly the way the enemy Steel Giants have it (at least in regular 1.3).

He's not getting any secondary.  Giving enemy monster-types a full working secondary via ENTD is fine.  I considered Fly too, maybe I'll just go with that.

Quotebut how about giving him innate Protect/Shell OR Haste OR Regen?

He already has a massive health pool and def up, neither protect nor shell innate is necessary.  Haste is quite unfitting.  Regen... almost solves the same issue Move HP does, only stronger.  

QuoteOn movement, are you taking out Move + 2 and 3?
I have Move + 3 on my chars, it covers almost half of them damn map

3, yes.  2 is getting shifted over to bards and dancers.  And all classes are losing 1 movement.  

QuoteBTW, shouldn't Hell Knight get more MA? Unless it's more of a physical class...

With untruth hitting up to 10 times and AoE getting buffed by proxy, he's fine.

QuoteHeaven Knight on the other hand should have innate 2 Hands like its counterpart.

no, she shouldn't :P.

QuoteSo Worker 8's Speed is better relatively, unless Philsov lowered his speed as well.

Worker 8's speed was never poor in the first place.  He hit 13 speed at 99, which is something only a thief-leveled generic can pull off.  It keeps up the same pace, as do most monsters, in that they usually have 1 speed more than your 100 SPM unit without any speed gear, because odds are they are going to have on a piece and the boost compensates for that.

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/a_softer_robot.jpg)
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 07:41:18 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Draw Out and Sing for starters, but understood.  I'll make him immune to less as well.

So, vulnerable to Haste / Protect / Shell, Blind / Slow... Don't Move / Don't Act?  IDK on the last two, since it depends how one thinks the statuses are inflicted by non-magic on a flavor level.  You could theoretically say Snipe hit a joint and Worker 8's repairing himself while the status is up, which I guess could also let him be vulnerable to Regen.

Reraise is a reinsertion of the soul into the corpse from what I can see (like Raise), so I don't think letting him be Reraised makes sense.  Then again, Items working on him doesn't make much sense either.

Quote from: "philsov"He's not getting any secondary.  Giving enemy monster-types a full working secondary via ENTD is fine.  I considered Fly too, maybe I'll just go with that.

Why not?  Item Secondary + Fly on 2 Move and a Speed that'll generally be slower than human counterparts doesn't seem broken, really.  Sure, that means Worker 8 could Elixir or X-Potion himself, but that's not much different from compensating Dispose with Move-HP UP.

Or is saying no a problem with actually adding the secondary?

Odd idea:  Item Secondary, Fly, 2 Move, vulnerable to Haste / Regen / Protect / Shell / Defend Status (lol) / Blind / Slow / Don't Move / Don't Act, immune to all other statuses and Items so that he can't randomly Elixir himself.  Maybe give him both Fly and Move-HP UP to compensate for immunity to both Healing Magic and Items.

If that's possible.  I think that'd be kinda pimp.

EDIT: Saw Voldemort's post below me.  Nix Move-HP UP from above suggestion because Energy and altered Speed values are enough for self-healing, imo.

Quote from: "philsov"Worker 8's speed was never poor in the first place.  He hit 13 speed at 99, which is something only a thief-leveled generic can pull off.  It keeps up the same pace, as do most monsters, in that they usually have 1 speed more than your 100 SPM unit without any speed gear, because odds are they are going to have on a piece and the boost compensates for that.

Note 'relatively'.  That means I was actually counting Speed-boosting gear, Setiemson / Excalibur, etc, because its always your final product that matters when you decide what unit to use, not just raw stats.

Because of Speed boosting and Auto-Haste, Worker 8 is relatively slower than the humans a player can have access to end-game.  Lowered Speed +X values and lowered base Speeds make Worker 8's raw speed have a far better chance to compete, as base speed means more and Haste means less because it has smaller numbers to multiply in terms of "Do I use Worker 8 or 5 obscene speed Auto-Haste guys?".

Since we're talking more like, 10 vs 14 here instead of 13 vs 20-25 (sometimes more) after factoring in Auto-Haste potential and equipment.  Which was what I was referring to in the first place.  Not *just* his base Speed vs base human Speed.
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Post by: Archael on November 01, 2009, 07:41:19 pm
guys remember worker 8 can go from critical to 100% HP using Energy

he's the perfect unit to send in to deal as much damage as possible and get in the enemies face, because if he gets a turn while critical he can keep himself alive indefinitely

and 13 speed at lvl 99 is not slow, like philsov said

also immune to most forms of magic and status as well

I begin to think a lot of the people saying Worker 8 is the worst special haven't used him alot in 1.3


(btw in 1.3 Holy Dragon Reis can be worth keeping in Holy Dragon form.. has anyone seen her breath damage and innates? :O)
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 07:44:05 pm
Quote from: "Voldemort"and 13 speed at lvl 99 is not slow, like philsov said

Read my above post on explanation on the use of the word 'relatively'.

Unless you're talking to the iopyud kid thar.

EDIT: STOP EDITING YOUR DAMN POST IT MAKES REPLYING RETARDED.

Thank you. ^_^
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Post by: Archael on November 01, 2009, 07:45:43 pm
if by "relatively slow" you mean "relative to setiemson humans with thief hats" then yes, he's slow

so what? alot of things are
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 07:58:09 pm
Quote from: "Voldemort"if by "relatively slow" you mean "relative to setiemson humans with thief hats" then yes, he's slow

so what? alot of things are

That + immunity to general Haste.  I still would say for this keeping him immune to all status + magic is better than making him vulnerable to Haste / etc, but eh.

And yeah, a lot of things are slow compared to those things.  But also remember when you get Worker 8.

All that's left is Nevleska Temple, Zarghidas Trade City, Deep Dungeon, Orbonne Monastery, maybe a little bit of Chapter 4.

The first two are a joke.  The third we need not discuss, and the fourth too, though since this is based on Easytype those battles are probably a bit less ridiculous.

Having used Worker 8 in quite a few random battles and such, I can say he's really damn good when his Speed relatively close to the enemy's speed.  However, considering the insane Speed growths 1.3 has on some of the enemies you fight in Orbonne, Deep Dungeon, and the fact those ridiculous setups with massive speed are possible in the first place, Worker 8 is slow relative to the options the player has at their disposal by the time they get him, especially in 'Normal' 1.3, as I can't imagine getting through that godforsaken Engineer battle without Setiemson unless Level 99.  Again, easytype base + lowered Speed probably means he's a lot better in the end game dungeon if not Deep Dungeon, but in 1.3, he is still relatively slow compared to what a player probably needed to go and get in order to get through the fights to get him in the first place and compared to many of the remaining enemies in the main story and optional dungeon.

When units aren't on gimped Speed, he isn't slow at all.  But that wasn't the point in my reply to iopyud.  I said Worker 8 doesn't need a Speed point because he becomes relatively faster, due to the fact the above gimped setups are far slower than they are in either 1.3 or easytype, and this hack will (or at least, I hope would) slow down end game bosses enough to compensate for the fact the player can't go and get 4 hoes with ridiculous 20something Speed after Initial: Haste.

EDIT:

Quote from: "Voldemort"(btw in 1.3 Holy Dragon Reis can be worth keeping in Holy Dragon form.. has anyone seen her breath damage and innates? :O)

I remember you saying the Innates a few times and remember them being pretty good, though not the specifics on what they were.

But the question is: Is Holy Dragon Reis worth giving up both obscene stat human Reis and Cloud and the two copies of Secret Clothes from Zarghidas Trade City and Javelin II and Escutcheon II and Nagrarock and a Kaiser Plate?
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 08:12:22 pm
Quotehoes with ridiculous 20something Speed after Initial: Haste.

Perfumes are becoming unisex.  

Pimps and hoes.  Pimps.
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Post by: iopyud on November 01, 2009, 08:22:50 pm
Off Topic: I'm not a kid. I'm just illiterate at coding and lack 1.3 exp. =c

*reads philov's comic*

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 01, 2009, 10:24:59 pm
Wo wo wo, hold on a second!

If AP is now Auto-Wish then it's crap!!! If you damage yourself for 20% max HP before healing those 40% max HP you will kill yourself if you're at 20% HP or lower!!! That AND if you damage yourself for 20% max HP after healing for 40% that means your HP won't get higher than 80% and hence, when you have more than 80% HP you'll be hurting yourself!
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Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 10:31:13 pm
haha.  no, the healing comes first, that was a concern I had but it works out fine.  

As for never getting above 80%, that'd be an unintentional side effect but I don't think someone is ever really going to be hit for less than 20% of their health, so all in all it'll still produce a net heal unless you're being lame with staves/throw dagger.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 01, 2009, 11:26:36 pm
I see... I really don't like it. Is there a way for AP to work only with potion and Hi-potion?
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 01, 2009, 11:41:55 pm
yup.  But it's still quite OP in midgame -- watch my golgarond vid.

So....... I can introduce another potion class.  Pot / Hi / X can be 30/50/70 and ULTRAPOTION can heal for 150.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2009, 11:46:11 pm
Quote from: "philsov"So....... I can introduce another potion class.  Pot / Hi / X can be 30/50/70 and ULTRAPOTION can heal for 150.

...Can you keep the name in all caps like that and give it a spell quote?

It'd be the BEST. POTION. EVER.

Also, 30 / 50 / 90-100 / 150, imo.
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Post by: iopyud on November 02, 2009, 12:31:23 am
Oh. I like the second idea.

Might as well make it heal for a little more?
Like... 180?

Item's range without Throw Item is extremely limited and it can only heal one unit. I always end up using Murasame or something...

EDIT:

Oh and can Boco get a buff? Some people (me) keep him. Might as well reward them with something.

Oh and I'd like to say no to unisex perfumes.
If you want to go ahed, I suggest that SOME would be male only and SOME would be female only.
(IE: Physical-ish ones go for girls, Magical-ish ones would go for guys)

That way the PA/MA Gender difference would be compensated and would be up to the player to decide whether to use a male caster with specialized perfume or a female one who has more MA.
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Post by: Zenius on November 02, 2009, 05:08:19 am
Why not go along with the other FF games and call it Mega-Potion instead of ULTRAPOTION
Although Mega-Potion was essentially a Hi-Potion on everyone in your party, but whatever
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Post by: iopyud on November 02, 2009, 06:47:26 am
Z-Potion lol amirite?!1

*Crickets chirp*
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Post by: Shade on November 02, 2009, 08:41:00 am
Potions should be 40 hp/ 90 hp/ 200 hp and then ultrapotion that should give 300 hp. (ultrapotion would not be usable with auto potion, because of balance.)
Ethers 50 and 150
Elixir should heal ALL status, besides it's full heal on hp and mp
remedy should heal some more status, since it's not worth of 500 jp.
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Post by: iopyud on November 02, 2009, 09:34:13 am
Woah woah. We're using Ultrapotion in order to decrease the original potions' values because Auto Potion is a little broken.
That's the original story so increasing Pot, Hi Pot and X Pot's value is out.

My mages can frekin' tank.

I don't mind the 300 HP Ultra Pot. Sounds good, in fact.
Elixir too.
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Post by: philsov on November 02, 2009, 09:39:58 am
Quote(ultrapotion would not be usable with auto potion, because of balance.)

Oh, where to begin.  First off, AP needs to be weaker, so, no.  30/50/90(maybe 100 for symetry's sake) scheme will probably occur.  ULTRAPOTION (name tba, it's all caps and poor name for sarcasm~) will heal for 200.  

All the single-status healing items (Antidote, eye drop, etc) are getting removed; Holy Water and Remedy will cover all the status-recovery bases, and will randomly heal between 1 and 150 health upon doing so.  Remedy/Holy Water will be getting JP and gil cost reduced.

This frees up some room (moreso without Wish potion) for the additional potion ability class, another level of ether, and then possibly a few other double-edged abilities I've been kicking around, like haste + poison and slow + protect.  Also considering a 50/50 Faith/Innocent potion, but I dunno about that one.  

QuoteOh and can Boco get a buff? Some people (me) keep him. Might as well reward them with something.

He's just a chocobo.  anything I do to him, I do to all yellow chocos.
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Post by: iopyud on November 02, 2009, 09:50:51 am
Damn. Can Chocobos get a boost then? They're like... the weakest monster class IMO. At least Goblins have Samuraish AoE, Status Skill and Falcon Punch...

People ride them. You can put bags on them... how about giving them Phoenix Down access and higher SP/HP or something... kind of like a support monster.

Anyway, whatever.

Regarding items:

That's great. Since you're taking out the single status healing items, I have a few suggestions (again) if you haven't finalized the replacements yet:

Potion 30
Hi pot 50
X Pot 100
ULTRAPOTION 200
UBERPOTION 400 (For late game?)
Mega Potion - OMFG IDEA STOLEN (AoE Heal like Cure)
Exploding Bottle - Antidote Sprite - Fire Elemental, weaker than Fire Ball but has knockback effect.
Weed - Echo Grass Sprite - Confusion Effect (50~80%)
Blind's worthless BTW. Is it getting a boost? Like... make enemies seem like they have Blade Grasp when you have this on but Blind won't last very long?

I hope we're not swaying too far from the original game........
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Post by: Zenius on November 02, 2009, 11:18:59 am
Blind isn't THAT worthless
It doubles your evade or something?
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 02, 2009, 11:28:00 am
QuoteCan Chocobos get a boost then?

I can keep them at their now absurd level of movement range, would make for kickass mounted troops.  But in terms of real stuff like abilities and health and crap?  Nah.

QuoteRegarding items:

Page 3 of this topic.  All formulas that work with item.  No aoe, no elemental, no sub-100% status.  

QuoteBlind's worthless

Context man, context.  Let's say I have Rat the ninja.  He's a good little ninja, with 20% class evasion and rocking double ninja swords, each with 10% evasion each.  If some young punk knight comes up and gets up in his face, Rat has a 64% chance to be hit.  Now lets say the punk ass knight is Blind.  Rat's now rocking 40% class evasion and double 20% weapons, and thus has a 38% chance to be hit.   This is no shield, no mantle scenario.  Nothing but the class and double weapons.  In fact, I may need to scale down these numbers even more if this sort of this keeps up >_>.
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Post by: Archael on November 02, 2009, 11:39:01 am
You know, I have an idea for Blind

it involves the over-used Blind 2 graphic, but whatever

basically you make Oracle's Blind use the Blind 2 Graphic, and have it auto-target all enemies on the map. or you can just keep the old blind 1 graphic with auto target all enemy on map.. either works

this would increase it's usefulness while not having to mess with the status itself

this would make it a sort of weaker golem, basically a defensive global spell
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 02, 2009, 01:35:35 pm
Reducing all 3 potions healing power and creating another potion like ULTRAPOTION sounds great. Nice idea Phil :)

See? We can do much better than "auto wish"
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 02, 2009, 02:04:45 pm
Quote from: "philsov"ULTRAPOTION (name tba, it's all caps and poor name for sarcasm~) will heal for 200.  

KEEP.  THAT.  NAME.

ULTRAPOTION

Desc: A REAL MAN'S POTION!  HEALS 200 HP!

Spell Quote: PAPER CUT, BEGONE!  ULTRAPOTION!  [new line] ...*Glug Glug Glug*

:D

Also, I'm not entirely sure I agree with Voldemort's idea for Blind.  Since everything has some Evasion via Innate Weapon Guard and Global C-EV, Blind seems like something that'd be far more useful even with just its 3-2 AoE, assuming I remember the exact effects of Blind correctly.
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Post by: Archael on November 02, 2009, 04:08:00 pm
you can give it a charge time, lower hit rate, or whatever you want

but it ensures that an enemy getting global blind off actually impacts the battle

where blinding 1 enemy is just a waste of a turn IMO
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Post by: Dokurider on November 02, 2009, 07:03:01 pm
My issue with Worker 8 isn't his speed, it's his movement. It's a absolute pain getting him anywhere. DD, any level with water, damn. Sometimes, it's like I'm fighting the whole battle with just 4 units because Worker is still in the starting area, lagging behind. :/
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Post by: FFMaster on November 02, 2009, 07:31:55 pm
3 Move is fine most of the time, especially with 8 range 300 damage attacks, which also goes thorugh Defense UP/Magic Defense UP. Not moving in water makes sense, but really hurts him in some maps.

His low speed is meant to balance out his power, resistances and Dispose, but I think its just a bit too low.

He was great for killing Rofel though.
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Post by: iopyud on November 03, 2009, 06:35:06 am
RE: Chocobos

Good idea on the movement. You lose 1 extra unit for massive movement.

RE: Items

Whoops.

RE: Blind

I forgot about innate weapon guard but I still like Arch's idea.
Else I really am better off casting Paralyze or Sleep or some other lame RNG status.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 03, 2009, 09:02:34 am
I use the current 1.3 version of blind all the time, it has a huge AoE and practically a 100% effect rate. But again, i'm currently playing through a Mages-Only challenge, so mantles and class evasion are all i've got and I need all the help in that department that I can get.
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Post by: philsov on November 03, 2009, 12:19:21 pm
QuoteMages-Only challenge

Whoa, sounds like fun.  How far've you gotten thus far?
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Post by: Nocat on November 03, 2009, 03:55:56 pm
If the issue with blind is that concentration goes through it, cant you make it so that blind>concentrate?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 03, 2009, 04:55:23 pm
Odd idea: Giving (at least some) classes an innate Reaction in addition to Weapon Guard.

I forget exactly how the Reaction stack works in terms of which Reaction fits where, but I know its similar to the Evasion stack.  

Example, I was contemplating on how Equip Spear on a Samurai is still > Attack UP, as Equip Sword (iirc) can be as well.  Which honestly makes no sense to me, because for such high WP weapons, Katanas are pretty much worthless outside of Draw Out if Samurais can't even make good use of them offensively.  Since from what I can tell, philsov either hasn't or doesn't want to give Katanas some sort of proc, innate, buff, etc to make them worth equipping beyond their WP, and the WP isn't enough on its own to merit using them since Equip Spear is both superior and directly on the way to Samurai... I thought of giving all Samurai innate Brave UP, allowing them to cause more damage over time via Katana melee without essentially being Reaction-less.  Obvious problem at first is that the primary Reaction equipped becomes more and more dangerous over time as well... but that doesn't seem like a very big issue, considering many other moves that modify Br / Fa returned and the most unbalanced Reactions have been removed or modified (I'm looking at you, Auto Broketion).

Whether every class should get an second innate Reaction, or just a few that may need it like Samurai, I'm not sure.  But things like Samurai with innate Brave UP, Ninja with innate Sunken State, Thief with innate Catch, etc. seems like it could be a pretty cool way to make the weaker Reactions more useful, unless they receive major buffs to put them on par with Dragon Spirit, HP Restore, etc.

Just a random thought.  Also, if Auto-Broketion has been downgraded sufficiently, is there still a reason not to at least test implementing a variant of the Fury hack, either lowering the +X value or simply lowering Orlandu's Br a bit?

EDIT:

I agree with above.  If possible, make Blind > Concentrate.  That makes too much sense not to do and makes Blind pretty damn useful compared to its current 1.3 form.

I actually had a few more suggestions, but I can't recall them right now.  Damn.

EDIT DOS:

I remember one of them.  Battle Boots.  Right now they're pretty much worthless, especially with how early Spike Shoes come in.

Maybe make them Jump +1 and some small Evasion (~5-10%)?  Speaking of accessories that give Evasion, is it just me, or are the %s Mantles give pretty damn ridiculous, considering they work on all sides?

I've always thought something needed to be done with them, either making them fall under C-EV's new 'Global' clause, getting lower %s for Phys-EV, or even being completely redesigned into something like an accessory version of a Robe.  I know you cut their evasion numbers somewhat, but it's still something I'd like your thoughts on.
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Post by: philsov on November 03, 2009, 05:09:53 pm
QuoteOdd idea: Giving (at least some) classes an innate Reaction in addition to Weapon Guard.

If given an innate reaction ability, the equippable reaction slot gets nulled out.  Multiple (innate) reactions only work for mimes and monsters (and enemy-only job classes).

Besides, Katana's (and knight swords) are going to be straight PA * WP -- the current knight sword weapon formula is basically "swordskill", which is why it doesn't work with poach.  Katana's will probably recieve a reduction in WP as a result of this, however.

Quoteis there still a reason not to at least test implementing a variant of the Fury hack, either lowering the +X value or simply lowering Orlandu's Br a bit?

Balance issues and numbers I have absolutely no desire to touch.

QuoteIf the issue with blind is that concentration goes through it, cant you make it so that blind>concentrate?

That's not the issue with concentrate at all.  In fact, no one's even mentioned it until you brought it up.  The problem with blind was/is that it's simply an inferior action -- why blind someone and reduce your chances to be hit by 50%, when you can throw an 85% paralyze at them and shut him down completely?  

To respond to this, blind got an increase in AoE (thereby affecting more targets than paralyze can ever hope to) and a decrease in CTR (1.  ONE.).  And given the mechanics changes already presented, Blind (both as a status and a spell) may in fact be overpowered and cause me to reduce the current W.Ev and C.Ev numbers.  

Oh, and squires are getting a move with PA * WP with a 100% chance to blind the target.  Blind by itself is questionably weak.  But damage + blind?  Awesome imo.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 03, 2009, 05:13:05 pm
Quote from: "philsov"If given an innate reaction ability, the equippable reaction slot gets nulled out.  Multiple (innate) reactions only work for mimes and monsters (and enemy-only job classes).

Besides, Katana's (and knight swords) are going to be straight PA * WP -- the current knight sword weapon formula is basically "swordskill", which is why it doesn't work with poach.  Katana's will probably recieve a reduction in WP as a result of this, however.

That sucks.

I didn't see you had taken my suggestion of making Katanas straight PA x WP.

But this means only non-Br using Reactions (essentially Abandon and Weapon Guard) can be made innate at this point?  Damn.

At least Katanas will hopefully be more useful melee weapons now.

Also, reposting my second edit in case you don't see it since you posted while I was doing it:

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"EDIT DOS:

I remember one of them. Battle Boots. Right now they're pretty much worthless, especially with how early Spike Shoes come in.

Maybe make them Jump +1 and some small Evasion (~5-10%)? Speaking of accessories that give Evasion, is it just me, or are the %s Mantles give pretty damn ridiculous, considering they work on all sides?

I've always thought something needed to be done with them, either making them fall under C-EV's new 'Global' clause, getting lower %s for Phys-EV, or even being completely redesigned into something like an accessory version of a Robe. I know you cut their evasion numbers somewhat, but it's still something I'd like your thoughts on.
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Post by: philsov on November 03, 2009, 05:25:39 pm
QuoteBut this means only non-Br using Reactions (essentially Abandon and Weapon Guard) can be made innate at this point? Damn.

Dunno.  The ASM hack somehow bypasses the problem -- if it was as simple as just giving everyone innate weapon guard in ffpatcher there wouldn't be an ASM hack for it, no?

On paper I think mantles are fine, with the feather mantle now boasting 25% evasion.  I may change my tune once I play with them in game, but for now I think they are suffucient.  And IF it were possible to make them global, which is waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond my ability, they'd still need to flip-flop and be 100% back/25% front.  

I agree there's some redundancy between spike shoes and battle boots, but I don't think evasion is the answer.  Perhaps status immunity.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on November 03, 2009, 05:55:05 pm
I don't think the ASM hack grants the Weapon Guard ability to everyone.  I think it just forces the chance of blocking or dodging to include the weapon evasion in the calculations, whether the ability is equipped or not.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 03, 2009, 06:57:44 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteBut this means only non-Br using Reactions (essentially Abandon and Weapon Guard) can be made innate at this point? Damn.

Dunno.  The ASM hack somehow bypasses the problem -- if it was as simple as just giving everyone innate weapon guard in ffpatcher there wouldn't be an ASM hack for it, no?

On paper I think mantles are fine, with the feather mantle now boasting 25% evasion.  I may change my tune once I play with them in game, but for now I think they are suffucient.  And IF it were possible to make them global, which is waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond my ability, they'd still need to flip-flop and be 100% back/25% front.  

I agree there's some redundancy between spike shoes and battle boots, but I don't think evasion is the answer.  Perhaps status immunity.

Status Immunity could be good.  Immune to Sleep, Don't Move?  IDK.

SilvasRuin may be right on how the ASM bypasses the problem.

I'd love to see evasion be like:

Weapon Guard - 100% Front, 50% Sides, 0% Back
Shield - 100% Front, 50% Sides, 0% Back
Class - 100% Front, 50% Sides, 25% Back
Mantles / Accessories - 100% Front, 50% Sides, 25% Back.

Magic Evasion obviously remains 100% on all sides.

This'd really further the goal of this hack - make positioning and position planning turns ahead become far more important, simply because WHERE you hit the opponent always matters no matter their equipment, instead of just "Am I behind him?  Y/N?", makes it harder to try and RNG through the game with stupid Evasion setups, etc.  It also makes a lot more sense, as honestly I can't see how I get a 100% Shield benefit from a right side hit when my Shield's equipped in my left hand and facing my front initially.

Actually hacking it to be so, IDK.  I don't ASM, but I assume the game uses an equation and just multiplies unneeded values by 0 depending on the direction being faced, so it may be as simple as finding those 0s and changing them to 50s and 25s.  If I'm wrong and they store separate equations for each side, it'd be a matter of editing the equation directly to handle more values and have a (value * 100) * (value * 25), etc. thing going on, which'd be a lot more complicated I assume.

Still, too bad on not being able to Reactions stack classes without nulling their equipped Reaction.  That could've made for some really cool class specialization and rebalancing.
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Post by: iopyud on November 04, 2009, 07:29:07 am
That reminds me.

You need to nerf Spears. I've been playing the original 1.3 and Dragon Whisker is freakin' broken. It one shots literally any unit from 2 panels away making Hamedo laughable. You have no idea how much 2 Hand Dragon Whisker helped me... it made most battles easier than they would be if I hadn't poached them.

What I'm thinking is giving Spears for this hack 0 Weapon Evade. Really, how do you parry with a spear anyway in actual non-scripted combat?
And possibly a little less WATK. They already have 2 Weapon Range.

For Katanas:

Increase Weapon Evasion - Turn them into "parryish tanks" where ninjas are "speedy assassins". They can't wear shields anyway, then force Katanas to 2 Hand only. (35 to 45~55)
Increase Class Evasion - Goes well with the increased Weapon Evasion (Thinking around 30-45?)
Increase WP - Superior to spears
+1 SP for Katanas - Kendokas IRL are freakin' fast
Innate Support Ability (Samurai)- Attack Up? MAtk Up?

Of course, you know better so the increase in WEV and CEV wouldn't be exactly like that... but if it were, I know I'd think twice on using a Samurai instead of a Draw Out BM or a 2 Hand Wanker Lancer.

You can still wear Spears but its Weapon Evade is 0 now. It's better to use a 2 Hand Lancer this time... - WHICH isn't as hard hitting and as defensive as Samurais but has 2 panel range and jump.

And Samurai units will be urged to wear Mantles instead of something so standard like... Bracer or Magic Gauntlet or something.

THAT means Blind > Samurai. Rock, Paper, Scissowned.

ON Blind (Spell): How about massive range, minor damage and knock back or something? I know I'd step back if someone threw shit on my eyes. AND it'd hurt.
Furthermore this'll let you take advantage of the terrain depending on the situation. Knocking someone off the ledge in this hack where movement is decreased will be a major difference. (Besides, it comes with Yin Yang Magic anyway, it'll be a situational spell).

NOW, on an entirely different note:
I'd like to propose moar innate support ability. How come only Thieves got Concentration?
Those slow moving Knights should have Def Up or something and maybe innate GJPUp for Squires for shits and giggles.
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Post by: Archael on November 04, 2009, 08:56:35 am
Dragon Whisker is not broken, it's just a high WP weapon

I'll bet you're still getting your ass handed to you by X Y and Z battle regardless of your Drag Whisker Hamedo
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Post by: iopyud on November 04, 2009, 09:12:03 am
Yeah, I still do. But I'd get my ass handed down to me harder 'without' it. Much much harder.

Well, it's fine. I just don't like how it outclass Katanas anyway.
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Post by: Archael on November 04, 2009, 09:16:24 am
Quote from: "iopyud"Yeah, I still do. But I'd get my ass handed down to me harder 'without' it. Much much harder.

that can be said for so many things, it's not specific to Dragon Whisker (or anything else for that matter)

you'd be getting your ass handed to you harder without Phoenix Down

without Revive

without Haste

without Abandon

without Revive

without Raise 2

without Damage Split

without Flare / Holy

without Quick

without Ninjas

without Thieves

without Steal Heart

without Mimic Daravon

etc etc the list goes on... I wouldn't put Dragon Whisker on a special "overpowered" level of usefulness above any of other "useful" things

if you were talking about Auto Potion then you'd have a point
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 04, 2009, 09:25:58 am
@philsov

As far as the challenge goes, I've been taking it easy, so i'm still on chapter two, having a little trouble on barius hill (enemies keep appearing with low faith/bad compat, especially that damn two swords knight in the front), but overall it hasn't been too much more difficult then just playing normally, since I tend to favor mage types anyway.
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Post by: Aquilae on November 04, 2009, 09:32:41 am
Everything except Cloths and Harps outclass Katanas entirely. Katanas deal really low damage because of the inclusion of Brave in the formula. I'd like to see an increase in WP or straight up PA * WP formula to even out the damage difference.

Also, regarding Dragon Whisker, you could say that of every other poachable. Sasuke Knives, Rubber Costumes, perfumes and stuff all make story battles easier, it is not limited to just Dragon Whisker. In fact, Dragon Whisker is pretty meh compared to the other poachables because it is quite situational. Unlike Perfumes and Rubber Costumes you have to use Lancer or Samurai, which might not be that great for the battle itself.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 09:38:41 am
The problem with dragon whisker is that it outclassed so many weapons (and health scaling) and was immediately available at the start of chapter 3.  First off, that is getting changed -- it and many of the other extremely high-teir weapons/armors will be available only after Limberry.  Conversely their now easy but well-placed access enables the enemies at Murond Holy Place and the Orbonne Home Stretch to be pimped the hell out as well, without any qualms on my end.  

Katanas already have the highest W.Ev of the weapon classes; I can boost up the later ones to 30-ish though to be on par with knight swords and axes.

FFT Samurai wear HEAVY ARMOR.  5% C.Ev.

Katana WP is getting boosted by proxy as they'll no longer be Br-dependant.

The only +sp weaponry in this version are H-Bags (one gives up melee potential) and the Sage's Staff (rare).  The speed growth is getting quite hampered to make charge time abilities more stable.

Samurai already have the highest MA -and- PA multipliers in the game, and in previous versions had innate 2H.  I really don't think they need more.

QuoteHow come only Thieves got Concentration?

Why else would you use a thief over a ninja?  

QuoteI'd like to propose moar innate support ability.

In order to make that sort of thing balanced, pretty much every class would need innate something.  But at that point, it's just freebies all around -- it won't matter if it's Sage with short charge innate rocking magic attack up or a wizard with MAU innate rocking SC.  Ancedotally speaking, I've played variants where all the classes had their relative support slots innate (Wiz with MAU, Geos with AU, Archers with Conc, etc) -- and while the party setup per battle required a little more thought, the battles themselves were quite easier because I was then able to support stack and still have a free slot for further offensive capability.  I'm a big fan of opportunity cost -- if you want defense up, you should sacrifice short charge (e.g.) for it.
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Post by: iopyud on November 04, 2009, 09:41:48 am
@Arch/Philsov

Hmm... alright, alright. I stand corrected.

EDIT:

I got some Qs btw.

What's the % completion of this patch so far anyway?
I'm kind of holding back on easy type in anticipation for this.

Oh and are you tweaking the difficulty? Will this be harder than the current easy type in terms of enemy unit prowess?

And some things I'd like to point out:

Rad, Lavian and Alicia coming with jobs unlocked are OK, you can proposition them anyway, what I find slightly annoying are Agrias and Mustadio. I could use them with more unlocked jobs.

I'm probably just lazy but I do find grinding a little lame. Would it be possible to give them more unlocked jobs preferably all higher tier (summoner, geomancer) unlocked but still at level 1?

That way you only have to grind for abilities.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 09:51:06 am
like... 25%.  

I've input most of the mechanical changes as desired.  At this point I'm going through the ENTD and changing all the enemies that had stuff like Weapon Guard and Move +3 into different reactions/movements.  

Once that's done I'll be shipping over a prelim patch to Seph and Raven so they can play through the game and give feedback on the evasion numbers, relative power of charge time abilities, and also flag up any specific enemies/battles that need to change under the new reduced movement/range paradigm -- immobile melee in the back of the battle is useless, as is a unit that's basically stranded.  

As they're messing with that, I'll be messing with the game script and injected some satire into the whole thing.  I've already broken down the events on an individual basis -- which imo is the hardest part short of actual thought into what all will be said.  I really don't want this to be lame.  It's just a matter of re-inserting script lines and making sure nothing is clipped or the speech bubbles hang or crap like that.  

At this point it'll probably be done around christmas time.  ho ho ho.

QuoteOh and are you tweaking the difficulty? Will this be harder than the current easy type in terms of enemy unit prowess?

For the most part, no.  The equipment scaling and enemy setups wil be near identical, the only difficulty modifier will be the movement/range/evasion differences, which for all I know can make the system more abusable/easier by the player.  Though the Murond/Orbonne stretch WILL be harder (in an absolute sense) because I can now expect the player to have access to better equips and thus can gear/class out those buggers even more as well.  

QuoteAgrias and Mustadio. I could use them with more unlocked jobs.

Well for starters they will be able to do propositions in this patch, but past that they could possibly be level 1 geo and lancer, respectively?  Alicia and Lavian will be coming in quite similar, but meh.

QuoteI know you hate it but I kind of edited my post while you were replying. Sorry

I'm pretty sure I'm the biggest offender to that, it's kinda normal at this point.

Edit:  Regarding difficulty, it might actually be a little harder for the player, too, because auto potion got trimmed up and abandon/hamedo were also removed.
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Post by: iopyud on November 04, 2009, 09:55:02 am
That's pretty great. I'll have until Christmas to bother you with crap like... Omfg giev Ramza Sowrdskillzlelel

I know you hate it but I kind of edited my post while you were replying. Sorry.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 11:24:42 am
Quote from: "philsov"Samurai already have the highest MA -and- PA multipliers in the game, and in previous versions had innate 2H.  I really don't think they need more.

You're saying you took that off?

Bawww.  Hopefully, I can still justify using a male Samurai.

Quote from: "philsov"Why else would you use a thief over a ninja?

I already use a Thief over a Ninja in 1.3, and if Ninja lost Two Swords innate, I see no reason not to just slap that onto my Thief and take my 100% shots and higher HP multiplier for the slightly lower PA.

Besides Throw, which is honestly better in ASM'd for obvious reasons.  But I think you get the idea.  Guess it depends how much better Throw is to determine whether a innate-less Ninja is still worth using over a Thief.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 11:41:16 am
It's package deal.  As ninja lose innate two swords, thieves lose innate concentrate.  Removing one but not the other is folly :p

This is of course coupled with the change to daggers to be 100% anyways + Steal %'s increased slightly to compensate for the new evasion.

Looking at the mage tree, there isn't much "progression" -- they are all rather interchangeable, and chosen based on which primary + stats + equip option you'd like.  Once Samu and ninja enter the melee picture, they outclass all other melee most of the time, because of their innates -- true there are times 2H lancer trumps equip spear/AU samu and two sword thief trumps concentrate ninja, but all in all I'd like the fighter classes to be more akin to the casters in terms of superiority.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 03:24:22 pm
Quote from: "philsov"It's package deal.  As ninja lose innate two swords, thieves lose innate concentrate.  Removing one but not the other is folly :p

Thank god.  Least you did that much, though I'm not sure if I prefer more innates or no innates yet.  I find the innates are cool ways to make each class truly unique, but too many can easily result in unintentional game-breaking-ness, I suppose.

Quote from: "philsov"This is of course coupled with the change to daggers to be 100% anyways + Steal %'s increased slightly to compensate for the new evasion.

Ic.

Quote from: "philsov"Looking at the mage tree, there isn't much "progression" -- they are all rather interchangeable, and chosen based on which primary + stats + equip option you'd like.  Once Samu and ninja enter the melee picture, they outclass all other melee most of the time, because of their innates -- true there are times 2H lancer trumps equip spear/AU samu and two sword thief trumps concentrate ninja, but all in all I'd like the fighter classes to be more akin to the casters in terms of superiority.

I figured as much.  It's worth playing around with and seeing how class superiority pans out.  I always felt Samurai having the most melee potential was okay since they have lower HP than Knights / Lancers (from what I've seen, at least) and the Speed of a Knight, meaning they were very "kill them quickly or die trying" every time I used one.  Lack of Br formula may make Katanas really worth it even without Two Hands innate, so we'll see.

Ninja and Thief were always rather interchangeable in the melee picture for me in 1.3, depending on whether I wanted Throw for damage, Martial Arts > dual Daggers / Sasuke Knives, Steal, etc.  My Lancer was my crutch for a majority of the game, as well.  While I probably should have stuck with UberSquire for Ramza, he did very well as a Geomancer for me as well.

Melee classes I never found really worth using on a mainstay basis were Squire / Knight / Archer.  I didn't use Monk often either, but that was mostly because I felt no need for it, not because I felt it inferior.

Though I'm also assuming you want to try and lower how much damage gets output per unit in order to make battles last a bit longer and be more interesting without throwing Defense UP,ridiculous growths, and uber equipment + Maintenance everywhere.  At which point this may work out okay.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 04, 2009, 05:02:53 pm
Few things:

1. Berserk should be treated solely as a negative status. Time after time again, Berserk proves that losing control of your character is always bad, no matter what benefits are. Berserk is just like Vanilla Axes and Flails, it just doesn't work for FFT. So, Berserk-blocking equips should come back.

2. /braces self

Fists should no longer be two sword-able. They are way too cheap. Even with the removal of Innate Two Swords, Monks are way too cheap with Two Swords. They are like the Two Swordable Knights Swords of 1.3.

3. Monsters should have more immunities to statuses. Even with all the progress they've made, I think they are still a little too vunerable. The Dark Behemoth is a step in the right direction.

4. I'm a little worried about Longbows no longer being exclusive to Archers. Will Archers still be able to hold their own?

5. Is it really a wise idea to give Chemists % healing? If anything, Priests should have % healing.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 05:23:51 pm
1) Does the enemy use Berserk enough to wanting even bothering with it?

2) I... have no clue how to fix this.  You're quite right, though the difference becomes far more pronounced at 99 than, say, 50.  What I can say, however, is that flails are probably going to be in the runnings for the same level of OP-ness at 99 because of their new formula... which puts Ninja and Squire(!) in the runnings for deep dungeon melee as well.  Also fists have no w.ev value, which will make monk the squishiest melee of all them.

3) Agreed, I'll shotgun something up.

4) As archers are able to longbow it up and still slap on attack up or concentrate, I say yes.

5) %-based chemistry died when the ASM hack caused my game to crash.  Auto-potion is getting trimmed with the introduction of a new potion class and an offsetting of the amount healed, which also enables the potion not in the auto-potion group to actually heal for more than 150 as well.

Edit:  Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much.  Dunno, I'll run some numbers.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 04, 2009, 05:33:52 pm
Quote from: "philsov"1) Does the enemy use Berserk enough to wanting even bothering with it?

The giant walking cows, for one, and the giant evil squids for another.

QuoteWhat I can say, however, is that flails are probably going to be in the runnings for the same level of OP-ness at 99 because of their new formula...

...what devil-ry are you planning?

QuoteEdit: Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much. Dunno, I'll run some numbers.

Remember, you don't need to buy fists nor do fists break.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 05:38:48 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Edit:  Actually, the "fix" would be to not give monks innate martial arts and boost the potency of punch art, but I think this would cripple them too much.  Dunno, I'll run some numbers.

No Innate Martial Arts.  Make Martial Arts cost 0000 JP.  Boost either Monk PA and/or Punch Art to compensate so that they're not quite Two Swords'ing, but about 50% between their current level and their Two Swords level when equipped with Martial Arts.

They'd still hit pretty hard and their abilities would be more potent, but no W-EV in a game where all EVs mean more and no hats / Equip Armor option without losing power should balance this.

I say 0000 JP Martial Arts so that the class isn't worthless upon unlocking, as it already feels (to me, at least) like it takes a good few ages to learn enough good Punch Art skills to have a truly usable set without Crystals to help.  This'd make it impossible for anything to Martial Arts with two fists.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 05:47:13 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"...what devil-ry are you planning?

Front page, yo.  (Which needs to be updated, and will in a week or less...)

Axes/Flails get new formula of ((0 + (1..PA)) + PA) * WP.  

Bam, something with about the same level of PA scaling of fists.

Level 99 Ninja in max PA gear = 26 PA.  I forget what the planned WP on scorpion tail is at, but flails averaging out to 40 PA * WP?  Should crest over the 999 damage point with two swords.  Attack up Axes won't be too far off, but they're capped at 999 due to being a single attack. One way or another, squires are going to be seen in the deep dungeon imo :)

Which is kind of ironic because specials can't be squires :3
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Post by: FFMaster on November 04, 2009, 05:56:00 pm
In a few battles, yes. Mostly the single unit battles. Abilities are much more important than melee though, since they have crowd control and status, which is much more important in the majority of battles. Squires lack everything except what seems to be a good melee axe. A lot of enemies in there have annoying reactions as well, like Hamedo and Counter, which would mean a dead Squire after a single attack.

Squires can be used in DD, its just that other classes have so many other benefits, like Mediators/Oracles/Cloud/Beowulf.

EDIT: I would like to see someone get close to the enemy units with Teleport 2, or like 10 move + Fly.

EDIT2: Forgot about the 100% Blade Grasp guy as well =p
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 06:12:29 pm
One of the Deep Dungeon battles should be a Squire with bandon, 100 Br, Elf Mantles, innate Defend status, innate Defense / Magic Defense UP, Teleport 2, ???, Attack UP, Martial Arts, Concentrate, and some ridiculous secondary equipped with two best Flails, forcibly equipped with Grand Helm, Maximillian, and Robe of Lords accessory (because its fricking cold down there!).

Then make Voldemort be forced to be the person to test the fight and only give him 5 of each Item.

Revenge for the hell that is 1.3... by a true UberSquire!

:D

EDIT:  In seriousness, it would be kind of cool to see some bitching Squires over the course of the main game and an uber broken one or two in the Deep Dungeon, if only because people will see Squire, go "lol, bad", and then get wrecked before learning the awesomeness that is 100% accurate, high damage dual Flails.

Speaking of Squires, is it possible to insert an ability into their skillset that replicates the 'old' version of Cheer Up (Br boost), while allowing us to keep the Regen-adding one from 1.3?

It's not much, but it boosts Basic Skill's usability up a bit more.  Is it possible for Dash to cause both knockback and Cancel: Charging 25% each (in the way Masamune casts Haste or Regen instead of both)?  Dash with just 25% Cancel: Charging is decent but too situational to justify the skill over something that simply hits like a truck and kills the caster midcharge.  Knockback seems a lot better in this game, so that would probably do it.   Especially if we could knockback non-Zodiac bosses... not being able to do so doesn't make much sense, imo.  That, and I think all of us want to Throw Stone Algus off the side of Fort Zeakden into a snowy, pancake death.
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Post by: Archael on November 04, 2009, 06:25:28 pm
QuoteOne of the Deep Dungeon battles should be a Squire with bandon, 100 Br, Elf Mantles, innate Defend status, innate Defense / Magic Defense UP, Teleport 2, ???, Attack UP, Martial Arts, Concentrate, and some ridiculous secondary equipped with two best Flails, forcibly equipped with Grand Helm, Maximillian, and Robe of Lords accessory (because its fricking cold down there!).

I cast stop

fights over
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Post by: Dokurider on November 04, 2009, 06:26:41 pm
So would I, except being a hero unit, he's immune to knockback.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 06:29:35 pm
Quote from: "Voldemort"I cast stop

fights over

I thought the ??? made it obvious the Squire would have boss immunities.

Psh.  :p
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Post by: FFMaster on November 04, 2009, 06:32:35 pm
Not much can be done about bosses and knockback. Immortal status makes them immune to knockback. Dash got changed to 25% cancel charging because Throw Stone already had knockback, and was much better because of range.

As for the UberSquire in DD, I could easily take him on, with 0 Items. He is much weaker than Queklain, due to lack of AoE. I can just spam Raise/Fairy to tank and use whatever for attack. You need to give him Ultima at least, but even then, he still might be too weak. I can just Mind/Magic Ruin him until I can tank him easily.

EDIT: Forgot about Stop. Other alternatives include Don't Act, Sleep, etc. Forgot about Immortal status' lack of immunities to the important status. Hell I could Poison him and stall for 10 rounds.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 06:36:15 pm
Quote from: "FFMaster"Not much can be done about bosses and knockback. Immortal status makes them immune to knockback. Dash got changed to 25% cancel charging because Throw Stone already had knockback, and was much better because of range.

As for the UberSquire in DD, I could easily take him on, with 0 Items. He is much weaker than Queklain, due to lack of AoE. I can just spam Raise/Fairy to tank and use whatever for attack. You need to give him Ultima at least, but even then, he still might be too weak. I can just Mind/Magic Ruin him until I can tank him easily.

EDIT: Forgot about Stop. Other alternatives include Don't Act, Sleep, etc. Forgot about Immortal status' lack of immunities to the important status. Hell I could Poison him and stall for 10 rounds.

You're taking that post way too seriously, FFM.

=p
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Post by: FFMaster on November 04, 2009, 06:42:22 pm
I live in DD. You guys can't just trample over my fun =p
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 06:44:01 pm
Quote from: "FFMaster"I live in DD. You guys can't just trample over my fun =p

You live there?

So, tell us the question on everyone's mind.

Is it so cold in there that the one Lune Knight really needs to wear two Robes?
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 08:39:18 pm
QuoteSpeaking of Squires, is it possible to insert an ability into their skillset that replicates the 'old' version of Cheer Up (Br boost), while allowing us to keep the Regen-adding one from 1.3?

Not that I'm aware of.  What little free ability slots remained prior to this were consumed prior, largely for talk skill.  Personally I find Dash to be a competely craptastic skill, and was planning on making Secret Fist (the old Dash :p) a PA*WP attack with a 100% chance to add:blind.  For a very brief period I thought to give a Work ability to basic skill, but those are WAY too strong in chapter 1 and that was quickly dismissed.  Maybe Shock?  Nah.

Ooooh.  Wait a sec, there is a spare ability slot:

- Self-only Br boost of 10, 100% success?
- Weapon strike with 25% chance for ability effect (elemental, stat break, swordskill, status, something?)

Really I'd like something that's moderately spammable like the short lived Wild Blow or Bulls Eye abilities, if you all recall those.

Edit:  No, knockback and cancel:status are mutually exclusive.
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 04, 2009, 08:48:18 pm
what if instead of dash being a weak attack with 100% knockback, it were a normal weapon strike with a higher then normal chance of causing knockback? (i.e. normal attack plus dash/throw stone proc). It'd be kind of weird to be doing 'super dashes' off of arrow shots or guns, so It might have to be limited to a range of one.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 04, 2009, 10:33:10 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteSpeaking of Squires, is it possible to insert an ability into their skillset that replicates the 'old' version of Cheer Up (Br boost), while allowing us to keep the Regen-adding one from 1.3?

Not that I'm aware of.  What little free ability slots remained prior to this were consumed prior, largely for talk skill.  Personally I find Dash to be a competely craptastic skill, and was planning on making Secret Fist (the old Dash :p) a PA*WP attack with a 100% chance to add:blind.  For a very brief period I thought to give a Work ability to basic skill, but those are WAY too strong in chapter 1 and that was quickly dismissed.  Maybe Shock?  Nah.

Ooooh.  Wait a sec, there is a spare ability slot:

- Self-only Br boost of 10, 100% success?
- Weapon strike with 25% chance for ability effect (elemental, stat break, swordskill, status, something?)

Really I'd like something that's moderately spammable like the short lived Wild Blow or Bulls Eye abilities, if you all recall those.

Edit:  No, knockback and cancel:status are mutually exclusive.

Damn at the edit.

Swordskill / Shock! / Work, no.  Basic Skill should be basic, and I'd call none of those basic.

100% +10 Br to self could be nice.

I've an idea.

Shattering Lunge (Rending Lunge in the PSP version, lol).

Dash-like with 25% Weapon Break proc.  Could even be a direct replacement for the current Dash, and as a result, Counter Tackle.  The Knight's Weapon Break isn't completely retconned because of the other abilities that Battle Skill comes with, use with ranged Weapons / Two Swords, % increasing via more powerful Weapons / more PA, etc, whereas this one will be 1 panel only, lower percent but with decent damage and some supportive abilities around it in its skillset.

If you choose to use such an ability and have Counter Tackle reference it instead, you could simply call the Reaction ability Counter Shatter.

Sounds interesting, thoughts?

Also, random side note that typing this vs Battle Skill reminded me of that I forget if I made or not.  I think PA Save and MA Save should be available to both genders, but for some reason can't recall if I brought that up or not.
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Post by: philsov on November 04, 2009, 10:48:17 pm
break/steal skills are hardcoded to their ability slots.  this is why counter steal weapon got rejected in the first place.  Weapon break was the first thing I tried when steal weapon failed.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 05, 2009, 01:38:53 am
Quote from: "philsov"break/steal skills are hardcoded to their ability slots.  this is why counter steal weapon got rejected in the first place.  Weapon break was the first thing I tried when steal weapon failed.

That's preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

How the hell did Voldemort have Daggers with 25% Steal procs before, then?
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Post by: SilvasRuin on November 05, 2009, 02:24:27 am
There's a formula that has a 25% chance of casting another ability, or something of that nature.  I imagine he used that formula and directed it to the steal abilities that were in their correct clots and so would work.
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Post by: FFMaster on November 05, 2009, 03:52:27 am
Yeah, Attack + 25% to cast a spell. Normally its directed to Ice 2 or something like that. Removed due to the duplication glitch though.
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Post by: iopyud on November 05, 2009, 06:02:25 am
Alright, how about:

Dash - CT00 with... 40~60% Chance? You don't even need to give it damage.
Throw Stone - This one will get blind, higher damage but charge time equivalent to charge + 1. You need a few seconds to find a rock.
Or leave it that way but give it WP*AP but have charge time.

I didn't understand what you meant about "status mutually exclusive"......

Anyway-

Are monks really strong? I mean, sure, they hit hard but most of the time I don't use them due to their squishiness.
A Two Sword monk really doesn't last as long as a 2 Hand Lancer.......

Enlighten me.
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Post by: Aquilae on November 05, 2009, 07:50:52 am
A Two Swords Monk does about the same damage as a Two Hands Lancer with Dragon Whisker at level 50, and then does about twice as much at level 99. The Monk has Martial Arts and Two Swords (a total of 3x normal damage spread out over 2 hits) and the damage scales exponentially. PA^2 * Br / 100 can reach really scary numbers at high PA levels, around 25 for level 99.

Besides, Punch Art is a great skillset and Monks are about the only class which can really use it well. Other PA classes need Martial Arts on support to match up to the Monk's performance with Punch Art. Monks also have decent enough HP to avoid getting one-shotted by most stuff while Lancer gets two / three -shotted. The minor durability lead isn't that great of an asset, Monks can use Equip Armor if you want a tank.
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Post by: iopyud on November 05, 2009, 07:59:00 am
Oh yeah. it's (Martial Arts) based on PA. I'm an idiot.
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Post by: philsov on November 05, 2009, 09:20:48 am
QuoteHow the hell did Voldemort have Daggers with 25% Steal procs before, then?

As already answered.  But a Br% chance to activate with a 25% chance for proc with a ~50% chance to break the weapon?  Very lame reaction imo.

QuoteDash - CT00 with... 40~60% Chance? You don't even need to give it damage.

Way too good versus bosses.  CT00 isn't something I can set immunity to.  Just have two Dash pumpers and lay into the guy with the rest of your squad.  

QuoteI didn't understand what you meant about "status mutually exclusive"......

Knockback isn't a status -- it's more of an effect.  The formula that grants knockback (read:  original Dash and Throw Stone) doesn't have any status properties, least, I'm pretty sure.  It's like asking for something to grant quick, deal damage to the target, inflict slow, and open a wine bottle all at the same time.  There just isn't a formula for it.

I'd like to keep Throw Stone as Throw Stone.  I can see the knockback being vital in this scheme.  Dash is already getting changed to PA*WP with a 100% chance to blind the target.  We still have one ability slot (old foxbird, I want the only way to reduce Br to be Talk Skill so I can give Zodiacs innate finger guard) to give to squires.  We can call it anything and it can do anything, so long as it kind of fits the squire/basic skill scheme -- if it's even warranted.  Sages/Oracles can get a new spell, monks/knight can get a new skills, etc.

edit: or monster skill chocos for the Br reduction thing.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 05, 2009, 03:07:56 pm
Actually Philsov... the formula that uses that is MA + X% and is a Talk Skill, you can give the boss innate Finger Guard to stop that.
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Post by: philsov on November 05, 2009, 05:20:18 pm
ah, wonderful.

Still, it'd basically be persuade 2.  I'd prefer a unique ability if possible.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 05, 2009, 10:40:40 pm
% to add [(PA*WP)/2] damage?
% for an extra attack?
% to add a couple of basic bad statuses.. any combination of 2 (poison/blind, blind/silence, poison/silence)

Hey is it possible to turn defend into something like "Sentinel" or the like? As long as you're defending, your reaction ability becomes Counter (maybe both Counter and Counter Magic), and it has Br% chance (or maybe a fixed % chance) of triggering. It'd be nice, but I have absolutely no idea if it can be done, so I'm just asking. Trying to be creative... maybe someone will like the idea for another project.
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Post by: Zaen on November 06, 2009, 12:18:51 am
That'd need ASM for sure.
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Post by: iopyud on November 06, 2009, 07:01:38 am
Wait- Let's talk about Basic Skill some more.

First, I don't really want 'new' skills, I prefer either just boosting or nerfing old ones.

Anyway-
If Dash is changed to PA*WP with 100% Blind: What's the point of using normal attacks then?
If you're going with that (You really like t3h blind don't you? lol), I'd like it to at least have charge time or MP cost.

Or you could give the Br reduction thing to Dash and Blind effect to Throw Stone. (No KB)
OR the 100% Knockback to Dash and Blind effect to Throw Stone which would be make more sense.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh and one more thing:

Scream : AoE effect with the range of Draw Out, it reduces Br of units around the user. UBERGUTS exclusive skill.
THIS'LL make UB3RGUTS special.

Bitch, if Ramza screamed, you'd be shitless. He's a mild mannered man of justice but he fucking annihilated the shrine knights in orbonne which sent little Izlude retreating scared shitless, then he proceeded to hunt down demons from hell and killed them one by one. You can only imagine what horrors the 'next' demon experienced while waiting for Ramza. Chaotic.Fucking.Good.
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Post by: philsov on November 06, 2009, 10:16:13 am
I was planning on having Blind Strike with an MP cost of 8 or so.  I'd like the knockback to be on Throw Stone due to its range.  

Hm.  Maybe a -1 MA and -1 PA Battle Skill?

Also, new idea to the table:  Diversified elemental!

Have some panels with:

PA * [PA+X/2]
MA * [MA+X/2]
[(PA + X) / 2] * MA

damage?  Makes terrain choice a matter of both damage and status, and boosts it by proxy for late-game damage dealing since you only need to stack one stat and becomes more friendly for the non-hybrid types.

Also for the purpose of playtesting both draw out and summon magic will lose their smart target feature.  I can see a lot more bunching up occuring -- which means that smart-targetting aoe is going to be SICK.  But on the other hand if I disable smart targetting those skillsets may not see much use.  Summon magic at least has range on its side to avoid friendly fire, but draw out will necessitate fly to break past the enemy and avoiding the pain to your own people.  But I think it's the best possible solution.  Again, this is up in the air, I'll see how both scenarios play out.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 06, 2009, 11:14:16 am
Then at least leave Draw out with smart targeting.
For summons, reduce those which had HUGE AOE (Leviathan, Bahamut) to normal AOE (Ifrit, Shiva) and give' em smart targeting.
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Post by: degrofm on November 06, 2009, 11:26:05 am
Quote from: "Sephirot24"Then at least leave Draw out with smart targeting.
For summons, reduce those which had HUGE AOE (Leviathan, Bahamut) to normal AOE (Ifrit, Shiva) and give' em smart targeting.

I thought that summons already had smart targeting, if by smart targeting you mean "only targets enemies."
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 06, 2009, 11:56:24 am
Yeah. Smart targeting targets enemies only when the spell causes damage / bad status, and only targets allies when the spell heals HP or grants positive status. Phil wants to remove smart targeting because with reduced Move, the units are cramping up, and smart targeting may be too much of an advantage in many cases.

That's why I'm suggesting that.
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Post by: philsov on November 06, 2009, 12:10:25 pm
You're saying keep all smart targetting and reduce the size of the larger summons?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 06, 2009, 12:13:29 pm
No, I'm saying keep smart targeting for Draw out. Remove all smart targeting from Summons except the healing/good status ones, and the huge AOE ones, but reduce those to normal big AOE.

EDIT: that'd be taking out smart targeting from Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh, Sylph, Lich, Salamander and Cyclops (though you can leave Cyclops and Salamander if you want). Reduce Bahamut's and Leviathan's AOE to Shiva/Ifrit AOE.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 06, 2009, 01:42:10 pm
Summons need Smart Targeting.  It doesn't feel right else.

Reduce all Summon AoEs by 1 Panel, add a bit more Charge Time maybe?

Draw Out without Smart Targeting is fine, imo.  Unlike Summons, they don't have a flavor precedent besides FFT itself (that I know of, at least), so I see no reason they can't hit anything.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 06, 2009, 02:59:25 pm
Well, you're right about Summons not feeling right without smart targeting. Why would Shiva attack you or your own party if you're the one who is summoning? I was offering this instead of just removing smart targeting from both.

Reducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting. The only thing you're gonna achieve giving them more CT is getting your summoners killed mid-charge.

Non-smart Draw out may see practically no use, since most melee units are gonna be cramped up now.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 06, 2009, 03:10:59 pm
Quote from: "Sephirot24"Reducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting. The only thing you're gonna achieve giving them more CT is getting your summoners killed mid-charge.

Thus, Summoners become more risky, need to be held farther back (thus reducing the power of their AoE since they'll have a harder time reaching), and the opponent has a chance to try and either get in and off the Summoner or get the fuck out of the AoE before they die.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Non-smart Draw out may see practically no use, since most melee units are gonna be cramped up now.

I actually think a lot of the Draw Out moves need AoE changes.  The skillset atm seems so bland.

I was thinking.

Elemental Draw Outs (Asura, Kotetsu) keep basic AoE, along with Masamune and Bizen Boat.

Next tier up (Murasame, Heaven's Cloud, maybe one other I'm forgetting) becomes 3 in each cardinal direction, no diagonal, similar to the old Triple Attack, except more panels in each direction and potentially hitting behind the user.

Kikuichimoji goes 5 Panels in 1 direction, as it does now.  I would say 6, but movement range reductions means that might be OP.

Then something cool with Chirijiraden.  Though my idea well for something cool with it is dry atm, meaning the best thing I can forward is basic AoE +1 and extra height tolerance (which I think is what it is already, anyway...).

If Philsov can go implement something like that (I'm not seeing why he couldn't, really), I think it'd be pretty cool, and justify Draw Out losing Smart Targeting because it has more flexible ranges.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 06, 2009, 04:02:33 pm
Seeing that Br modding is coming back, maybe O.G. Scream should return?
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Post by: philsov on November 06, 2009, 04:08:10 pm
fyi:  summons hit everyone in FFTA.  

QuoteReducing Summons AOE (except Fairy) could be worthy, to keep their smart targeting.

So, weaker than black magic but smart targetting and possibly costing more MP?

Quoteold Triple Attack

Might just work :)

QuoteSeeing that Br modding is coming back, maybe O.G. Scream should return?

I wish, but +Sp is just way too good.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 06, 2009, 04:09:41 pm
Replace +Sp with Haste, then?
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Post by: philsov on November 06, 2009, 04:13:46 pm
Scream's old formula is: +Y Br, +X PA, MA, and Sp.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 06, 2009, 11:19:07 pm
Quote from: "philsov"fyi:  summons hit everyone in FFTA.

Except, FFTA is evil.

Quote from: "philsov"Might just work :)

Hm.  If it works, want to dick around with Summon Magic AoE some too?

I felt those two skills should have had a lot of moves with varying AoE.  Their current forms are both rather bland.
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Post by: iopyud on November 07, 2009, 03:54:44 am
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Summons need Smart Targeting.  It doesn't feel right else.

Reduce all Summon AoEs by 1 Panel, add a bit more Charge Time maybe?

Draw Out without Smart Targeting is fine, imo.  Unlike Summons, they don't have a flavor precedent besides FFT itself (that I know of, at least), so I see no reason they can't hit anything.

I second this. How about reducing HT as well? It's fine as long as they can walk away right? For Bahamut (boasts massive AoE), reduce his damage and give him like... 1 HT or something?

EDIT:

What is O.G. Scream?
How about just giving it Reraise or something?

Oh and are you still accepting suggestions for the script?

Scene: Orbonne after Ramza kicked everyone's asses and Wiggy's on the floor bleeding.

Wiegraf: Go on without me (or something like this)
Izlude: Wiegraf! Are you OK?!
Wiegraf: You stupid fucking cunt, do I look OK? I hope your father kills you.
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Post by: philsov on November 07, 2009, 09:35:53 am
QuoteExcept, FFTA is evil.

Oh, indeed, its just that there really is no precedent towards summons, in either direction -- if we really wanted precedent summons would be hit all enemies regardless of placement -- it wouldn't be a simple AoE effect.  

QuoteIf it works, want to dick around with Summon Magic AoE some too?

It works with draw out because the options for a linear attack or a 3-directional attack are forced to originate from the caster -- effective for frontliners. Summon Magic doesn't really have the same luxury since, conceptually, it's a ranged skillset.  On top of that, if they grab the back row caster motiff, this then means that any summon WILL hit a friendly target on its way to the enemy.  Summon's staying at ranged +'s, for better or worse.  Though, I don't really like the idea of 1 AoE summons -- starts cramping into Black Magic's territory.

Quoteyou still accepting suggestions for the script?

Less vulgarity for the sake of it, but the I hope your father kills you can make its way in there.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 07, 2009, 09:53:02 am
Quote from: "philsov"It works with draw out because the options for a linear attack or a 3-directional attack are forced to originate from the caster -- effective for frontliners. Summon Magic doesn't really have the same luxury since, conceptually, it's a ranged skillset.  On top of that, if they grab the back row caster motiff, this then means that any summon WILL hit a friendly target on its way to the enemy.  Summon's staying at ranged +'s, for better or worse.  Though, I don't really like the idea of 1 AoE summons -- starts cramping into Black Magic's territory.

Maybe a combination of both + ranged AoE Summons and originate-from-caster Summons, where one is ranged with lower power and higher CT and the other forces the caster to get in close, but is faster and causes a bit more damage?

That seems like it could work, since we could at least dick around with the AoEs of the from-caster Summons.
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Post by: Archael on November 07, 2009, 11:26:30 am
  • [/size]n Summons and Draw Out Smart Targeting:

    I see in this situation a great opportunity to apply logic and logicsisms to the context of the debate between what should be smart targeting and what should not. Summoned creatures are supposed to be friendly to the caster who summons them. Just like Ifrit knows not to hit it's friends, Moogle knows not to heal it's enemies. Draw Out, on the other hand, are just unleashed waves of energy, and the game makes no effort to personalize them as conscious entities in the game world. Coupled with the fact that Draw Outs are instant, have no MP costs, and ignore faith, keeping them without smart targeting really adds to their personality of "this skill is very powerful, but use with caution". Draw Outs with smart targeting not only detract from the character of the skills, but also present a very real balance problem.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 07, 2009, 11:38:16 am
Quote from: "Voldemort"
  • [/size]n Summons and Draw Out Smart Targeting:

    I see in this situation a great opportunity to apply logic and logicsisms to the context of the debate between what should be smart targeting and what should not. Summoned creatures are supposed to be friendly to the caster who summons them. Just like Ifrit knows not to hit it's friends, Moogle knows not to heal it's enemies. Draw Out, on the other hand, are just unleashed waves of energy, and the game makes no effort to personalize them as conscious entities in the game world. Coupled with the fact that Draw Outs are instant, have no MP costs, and ignore faith, keeping them without smart targeting really adds to their personality of "this skill is very powerful, but use with caution". Draw Outs with smart targeting not only detract from the character of the skills, but also present a very real balance problem.
I'm pretty sure that summarized what everyone else save maybe one person (and FFTA, that evil son of a bitch) said.

Hence why I think we're looking into funky AoE, hit-everybody Draw Outs and smart targeting Summons that will hopefully also have at least a couple funky AoEs.
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Post by: philsov on November 07, 2009, 11:58:50 am
imilarly, if one is so astute as to look through both their monocle and saucer, the same character of ignorant assumptions can be applied to summon magic as are the great draw outs of yore.  A summoned creature is only as smart as its caster.  If the caster commands "kill everything on this spot and those around it", the creature shall do so.  If the caster commands "kill only the bad guys, like this one and that one", the creature shall do so.  Summons with smart targetting not only assume a verbose and well-meaning caster, but also present severe balance issues.

See?  I can do it too.

Anyways, I think I'd solved the conundrum, somewhat.

Draw Out:  
Almost all draw outs affect everybody.
Asura = MA * 8, 2 range, 3 directions, 2 vert tol; chance to trigger Dispel Magic effect.
Koutetsu = MA * 8, 5 range linear, 2 vert tol; chance to silence.
Bizen Boat = MA * 10 MP damage, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol, 3 directions
Murasame = MA * 10 Healng, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
HC = MA * 10, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol, chance to slow.
Kiyomori = Adds either Protect OR shell, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
Muramasa = MA * 12, 2 range, 2 vert tol, 3 directions; no status.
Kiku = MA * 12, 5 range, 2 vert tol, no status.
Masamune = adds either Haste OR regen, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol
Chiri = MA * 15 damage, 2 AoE, 2 vert tol; no status -- cannot harm allies

Summon Magic:
Most summon magics are smart.
shiva: 3 range, 3 directions.  smart
ramuh: 5 range linear.  smart
ifrit: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.

Odin: 3 range, 3 directions.  smart
Leviathan: 5 range linear.  smart
Salamander: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.
titan: 2 AoE, smart.  Increased MP cost

Lich: 2 AoE.  dumb, caster immune.
Bahamut:  ????
cyclops: 2 AoE.  smart.  Increased MP cost

Silf: 2 AoE, smart.  
Fairy: 2 AoE, smart.
Golem: :p
carbunkle: 2 AoE, smart.
Moogle: 2 AoE, smart.
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Post by: Archael on November 07, 2009, 12:11:07 pm
QuoteSee? I can do it too.

o rly? I wasn't aware that someone else could do that too! learn something new every day I guess



QuoteSummons with smart targetting not only assume a verbose and well-meaning caster, but also present severe balance issues.

wtf?

summons with smart targeting aren't a balance problem, they are kept smart targeting to keep them useful

summon magic has charge time, an MP cost, and is faith reliant

draw out is alot stronger, and is imba with smart targeting, that's why I made it dumb

but looking at the changes you made you seem to agree that Summon = Smart and Draw Out = dumb is for the best
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Post by: philsov on November 07, 2009, 12:17:04 pm
With the move/range reduction, bunching up will be more common -- which makes draw out even more of a liability as well.  Even if it's faith reliant, has a charge time (which means a lot less here), and an MP cost, the AoE summon magic can crank out needs to be fixed.  Thus, summon AoE is getting shifted around a bit, which now require a larger emphasis on party/character placement.  The smart AoE damagers have an increased MP cost.  

Ultimately the aoe of both of these is either reduced or somehow penalized.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 07, 2009, 01:25:46 pm
Bahamut: 100% Dead, dumb targeting, 5 AoE and 10 Vert Tol.  9001 MP Cost, Adramelk only, learn-on-hit.

Lol.

But, seriously, um...

Needs to be smart targeting and high damage.  Bahamut isn't stupid, nor is he a flaming pussy besides in FFX where he looks like a giant turkey.

Too bad there isn't a way to make a straight "Cost: All MP" formula.  Then we could probably pull something cool off with Bahamut.

Hmm...

Outside of the Bahamut conundrum (as I'm assuming Zodiac is still staying ridiculous due to it being Zodiac), my main qualm is the fact Salamander and Ifrit are exactly the same.  I'd have liked them to be different to give reason to use each, but since you're doing Summons in tiers I suppose its not a big deal.

Fairy is still a reviving Summon, yes?  2 AoE reviving in this hack seems pretty powerful unless it's not very accurate.

Is it possible to make Bahamut 2 (maybe 3?) AoE, smart, but make it so the AoE can only emanate from the caster in form of 1.3's Spin Fist?

Though I suppose since the above is more like Bahamut is protecting the caster directly, it could even be a 3 AoE dumb epic damage Summon.

EDIT:

Like new Draw Outs, but Heaven's Cloud still seems ridiculous.  Maybe allow it to go to MA * 8 and let the Elementals ascend to MA * 10, or even just have all 3 share a plane?  Then again, with everything already much slower, I suppose being Slowed would be less devastating just as being Hasted wouldn't be as auto-winning.
Title:
Post by: Sephirot24 on November 07, 2009, 04:02:13 pm
Hmm, I will have to test all this before giving my opinion.
It looks interesting to say the least =P
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Post by: iopyud on November 07, 2009, 10:16:06 pm
But Bahamut is Bahamut!

Just make hit HT to 1 and can't be casted too far from the user with increased CT. Keep his AoE but his damage would be... uh... at least make sure it's not a massive AoE 1 Shot.

That way when you cast him, you have to make sure your Summoner doesn't get killed before it goes off.

MA*12 on Muramasa seems a little too strong. And I want its status effects back. >_>

Furthermore Samurai still have their normal attacks where Summoners are entirely reliant on their skills.
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Post by: philsov on November 07, 2009, 10:32:49 pm
what in the world is ht?

QuoteFairy is still a reviving Summon, yes? 2 AoE reviving

Is a typo :p.  1 AoE.

QuoteBahamut isn't stupid

Um.. what?  

"Hey, guys, I'm going to cast mega flare in 5 turns.  Oh, and if you all cast Wall on yourselves it'll come right back onto me, but I don't know my own spells, nor will I not cast this if the entire party becomes completely immune to my own damage.  Also I'm quite weak to my own damage.  OK, it's been 5 turns, I think I'll go impale myself now."

:).  I thought it'd give up a bit of consistency.  The Fire ones are the wide-aoe hit everything in sight ones.  Also!  Planning to make Odin Wind elemental and Bahamut (whatever it turns into) Holy -- which makes summon magic hit up the entire elemental spectrum.

QuoteMA*12 on Muramasa seems a little too strong. And I want its status effects back. >_>

You sacrifice status for damage!  It might still be too strong, dunno.  We'll see.
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Post by: iopyud on November 07, 2009, 11:04:34 pm
Ht... er... height. You know... Vertical range?
Title:
Post by: SilvasRuin on November 08, 2009, 12:20:27 am
Quote"Hey, guys, I'm going to cast mega flare in 5 turns. Oh, and if you all cast Wall on yourselves it'll come right back onto me, but I don't know my own spells, nor will I not cast this if the entire party becomes completely immune to my own damage. Also I'm quite weak to my own damage. OK, it's been 5 turns, I think I'll go impale myself now."
I don't know what the case is for the GBA version, but the DS version is far more intelligent than he once was.  He'll utilize Reflect to counter your Reflects (and any magic for that matter, so you can't dispel it) and make the fight much harder for you, and to ensure Mega Flare will NOT miss.
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Post by: Zaen on November 08, 2009, 01:03:58 pm
-------------------------------------------- <-- stupidity filled this void previously.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 08, 2009, 02:40:54 pm
Heh, I think the conversation is about Bahamut in FFIV, where he tells you what he's going to do five turns before he does it, giving you ample time to set up Reflect, that reflects his Mega Flare, he changes this up in FFIV DS though.
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Post by: Zaen on November 08, 2009, 10:27:28 pm
Ohhhhhhhhh.... right. I'm a complete moron. Disregard my lack of intelligence at 1:03 PM of today.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on November 09, 2009, 12:23:03 am
For the DS version, he basically makes your spellcasters useless for the battle except for Haste and one casting of Slow before he casts Reflect.  Or wait, do summons go through Reflect?  I forgot.  The way around that is of course Piercing Magic for either of them and Dual Cast for Rosa to Dispel then Holy, but then you also wind up dispelling the Slow.

...right, that's getting a wee bit too far off subject.  >_>

I think Bahamut should specialize in intelligent AoE, but I am incredibly biased and do not have any real reasoning to back that up.
Title:
Post by: Zenius on November 09, 2009, 06:30:37 am
There hasn't been any FF game so far where summons don't go through Reflect ^^
And you don't need to cast Slow, there's an Item that does it
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Post by: iopyud on November 09, 2009, 08:44:41 am
We probably should just vote.
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 09, 2009, 10:32:04 am
Quote from: "iopyud"Ht... er... height. You know... Vertical range?

Ah, thought it may have been a typo for CT/CTR but you used it too often to be a fluke :p

QuoteI think Bahamut should specialize in intelligent AoE, but I am incredibly biased and do not have any real reasoning to back that up.

Hm.  Have him basically swap with Cyclops?  That is, bahamut is the smart AoE with moderate-high damage and nasty MP cost while cyclops is the dumb AoE with high damage and nasty MP cost?  That might work.  
 
QuoteWe probably should just vote.

No.*

*hell no.
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Post by: philsov on November 09, 2009, 10:51:26 am
Quote from: "Kokojo"I think everyone should be consulted for that parody, here my idea (tell me if you want me to take it back)

[A female knight walks in with a nasty wound. The priest helps
the knight.]

Female Knight: Zomg, i got pwnzors !

Simon: Why the hell can't i use cure 2 now and send her to battle ?

[Agrias quickly rushes out the monastery.]

Gafgarion: Let's go see what happening, young lad.

Ramza: They will perish under a sea of blood !

Gafgarion: ...That's right. Well then. Let's go!

[The Knight and the two squires goes outside.]

Ovelia: Man, i forgot to cast them M-barrier.


- Outside the monastery -
-------------------------

Agrias:  Prince Goltana mens ?

Goltana Knight: Haha, we are here to take the princess, even such you overpower us with 2 holy knights, Goltana sent 5 of his weakest mans to take the princess. Wait a minute...

[The black knight and the two squires comes out to help Agrias
and the others.]

Gafgarion: Fool! Only idiots attack head on withouth planning that a old friend of a soldier in this batlle will capture the princess aftherwards !

[Agrias steps forward.]

Agrias: Leave this to us, they are fucking weak!

Gafgarion: Nah, i want to see their blood, BLOOD ! MUAHAHA

Agrias: You sick foul.

Gafgarion: RAMZA, RAD, LETS SLAUGHTER THEM

[Gafarion rapes the enemy with Blood river attack]

Ovelia: Hey, he's touching my breast !

[Agrias looks at the monastery.]

Agrias: Lol.

[Agrias runs inside to save the princess. A knight takes the
princess through the back door of the monastery.]

Knight: Man, i could just kill you then gve you a phenix down, why din't i think of that sooner ?

Ovelia: Please rape me !

Knight: Ew.

[The knight punches the princess on the stomach and puts her
on his chocobo. Agrias comes out.]

Agrias: Shit, why dont i statis him !

Knight: Don't blame me. Blame Canada.

[The knight takes off with the princess. Agrias runs after the
knight, realizing she cannot keep up, she falls down on her
knees.]

Agrias: Damn you, canada!

[Ramza sees the knight.]

Ramza: Meh, its my old friend.

<3
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Post by: Kokojo on November 09, 2009, 11:07:50 am
Am I to understand you will acutally make these changes...?
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Post by: philsov on November 09, 2009, 11:21:56 am
most.  Probably not the Ovelia capture bit, but otherwise  :D
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Post by: Kokojo on November 09, 2009, 11:24:55 am
Alright. If you want I can write a bit more in my spare time (read : school)
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Post by: philsov on November 09, 2009, 01:22:32 pm
whatever you're willing to mess with.  But that's the exact sort of parody I'm aiming for.  

Preferably stuff in chapter 2 onwards, at this point.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 pm
Lol.  The Gafgarion insanity bit doesn't seem right unless we're going to make a running gag of him being a senile old man with Alzheimer or something.  If we do that, its mostly just polishing it up, maybe tweaking a line or two, and switching the rape bit because people are oversensitive even though we're on the internet.

Gj Kokobo.  

...Delita's last line should be "Hi-ho Kokobo!" as he rides off into the distance.  Pronounced in a really slow, drawn out voice.

Unless that means not blaming Canada.  Blame fucking Canada first.

Damn Canadians and your maple syrup...
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Post by: iopyud on November 10, 2009, 07:22:05 am
lol Yazan-Gafgarog.

Gafgarog: I'm going "feast" on your "flesh".

It might work out pretty well specially on Ramza/Gafgarog duel. There's a room for some sick lines.

Anyway, I believe in Brave Story, they mentioned that Gafgarog's manner of fighting is somewhat brutal. A money-obsessed rapist might work but he's a pro, so he can't be a psycho...

My 2 cents.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on November 10, 2009, 01:26:14 pm
Merciless and without remorse might be the better way to portray him if you want him to fit the description of brutal.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 10, 2009, 07:27:09 pm
If you mean the same Yazan I'm thinking of, iopyud, I just gained a small shred of respect for you.

A very small one.

But a shred nonetheless.
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Post by: iopyud on November 11, 2009, 06:45:36 am
That's... good to know.
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Post by: philsov on November 12, 2009, 01:14:29 am
Most of the mechanical changes are input -- I'm staving off on those random battles to replace poaching until anything that needs to be hammered out is so.  ENTD still needs some tweaking - I've shifted around the movement abilities, but still need to toggle around the reaction abilities -- now that hamedo, abandon, and weapon are all gone it's kinda tricky.  And then there's the text edits.  Ugh.

So in the meantime I've just be dicking around with hex editing, and am happy to announce free reign over all the equip X functions:

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207)

I've got a handful of ideas but it's late.  Welcoming suggestions!
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 12, 2009, 01:51:09 am
Sexy.

Imo, Equip Katana and Equip Axe are the two we can rework entirely because they (especially Equip Katana) see and probably would see no use.

If I had my way we could use Equip Shield as well, but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.  Bitches.

Anywho.

You said Knight Swords are getting tacked onto Equip Sword and Long Bows onto Equip Crossbow (renamed Equip Bow, I'm assuming), so we don't need to worry about those.

Equip Dagger is probably not that useful.  Same with Equip Ninja Sword.  Equip Flail would at least be better than Equip Axe, but I think everything that cares enough to use Flails already can.

Equip Harp and Equip Book wouldn't be useful.  Equip Rod/Staff as a single ability might be, and I think Equip Stick definitely could be useful.  Equip Cloth seems rather useless.

Ribbons, Perfumes, Bags are cross-gender now, so those abilities would be useless.  Equip Clothes / Robes / Hat would definitely be (a) useful ability(ies).  

I think that covers it for Equips that aren't already associated with an Equip (X), I think.

So...

Sticks
Rods/Staves
some combination of Clothes / Robes / Hats

Unless I'm missing something, those are the only things that'd be useful that aren't already in the vanilla abilities.

I definitely vote for Equip Stick, maybe allow Robes to be a part of it.

The other open ability, IDK.  Though there's not that much else to choose from that I can see.
Title:
Post by: iopyud on November 12, 2009, 07:17:17 am
Re: Equip X

I don't have anything too detailed to say but I personally believe that anything more than what we have will damage the concept of "specialization".

Sure, you can go with Concentrate/Attack Up Archer for example but they wouldn't be so special. Besides I'd probably use a Bow Thief over it and I already don't use Knights. I find them too slow, I'd take a Lancer anytime, I like Knightsword WEV but if I can give them to anyone then I wouldn't even touch Knights.

Of course, that's all based on my personal play style.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 12, 2009, 11:46:22 am
QuoteSticks
Rods/Staves
some combination of Clothes / Robes / Hats

Exactly. Unless you want to use those ability spaces to do something totally different (not equp X).
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Post by: philsov on November 12, 2009, 12:05:55 pm
My current plans:

Equip Armor  - No change
Equip Shield - No change
Equip Sword - Good point with Knight swords being exclusive.  Thus, reworked!  Becoming rod/robe/staff; tempted to give this to sage but I think that's too far down the job tree.  Maybe... chemist?
Equip Katana - Reworked!  Equip hats + clothes; probably available to Thief class.
Equip Crossbow - Reworked!  Now equip XBow + Longbow.  
Equip Spear - Reworked!  Becoming equip spear + stick (polearm, if you will), probably accessible to both Oracle and Lancer.
Equip Axe - Reworked! Becoming equip Axe + Flail.  Remember, Axes/Flails are going to a lot better.  
Equip Gun - Reworked!  Now Gun + Books... just because we can.
Title:
Post by: Sephirot24 on November 12, 2009, 12:16:34 pm
Sounds good enough. :)
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 12, 2009, 05:32:39 pm
Quote from: "philsov"My current plans:

Equip Armor  - No change
Equip Shield - No change
Equip Sword - Good point with Knight swords being exclusive.  Thus, reworked!  Becoming rod/robe/staff; tempted to give this to sage but I think that's too far down the job tree.  Maybe... chemist?
Equip Katana - Reworked!  Equip hats + clothes; probably available to Thief class.
Equip Crossbow - Reworked!  Now equip XBow + Longbow.  
Equip Spear - Reworked!  Becoming equip spear + stick (polearm, if you will), probably accessible to both Oracle and Lancer.
Equip Axe - Reworked! Becoming equip Axe + Flail.  Remember, Axes/Flails are going to a lot better.  
Equip Gun - Reworked!  Now Gun + Books... just because we can.

I like Equip Polearm.

Equip Axe + Flail as one ability is approved as well.

Same with Equip Crossbow.

Equip Katana becoming Equip Light Armor sounds cool.

Only thing I don't like is losing Equip Sword.  Equip Sword is actually pretty damn useful, especially for Special units.  I'd rather lose Equip Shield since everything already has Weapon Guard innate.

Hm.

Equip Sword could be turned into Equip Melee (name pending), and allow Axes, Flails, and Swords, leaving Knight Swords for Knights only as they are now, then let Equip Axe become Equip... Mageset?  Idk on a name for something like that, but I like Rod / Staff / Robe under one ability set.

Equip Gun including Books doesn't seem to be a problem balance wise, but I have no clue what we'd rename it.

If we wanna get really technical, isn't Martial Arts technically an "Equip X" ability as well with the value set to bare hands?  Not saying we should change it... but we could, if we wanted to.

Hm.  So how about:

Equip Heavy Armor (Same)

Equip Shield (Same)

Equip Melee (Axes, Swords, Flails, available on Squire?)

Equip Mageset (Robes, Rod, Staff, available on Summoner since its the only job that can equip all 3 and doesn't have ridiculous requirements)

Equip Polearm (Spears and Sticks, available on Oracle and Lancer... maybe allow Lancers and Oracles to both equip Spears and Sticks naturally now because of this ability for the sake of consistency?)

Equip Bow (Long Bow and Crossbow, same place)

Equip Light Armor (Hats and Clothes, available on Thief)

Equip Gun(?) (Gun + ...Books for the lulz, apparently, on Mediator)

?
Title:
Post by: Zaen on November 12, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
I like the last suggestions. Axe + Sword + Flail definitely works out a lot better than taking out Sword. Also, I was gonna suggest Summoner over Chemist for the same reasons.

Other than what's been mentioned, I can't think of anything better.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2009, 01:10:45 am
Thought.

Add Books to Equip Mageset.

It'd be more useful than having Books as part of Equip Gun, since iirc Books are something like PA*MA/2 and Equip Mageset would actually give the Book-Equipper access to Wizard Robe to buff said Book should they actually want to use it.

It would also spread the love of "Equip X ranged weapon" abilities around a bit better.
Title:
Post by: iopyud on November 13, 2009, 06:38:19 am
To clarify, I'm referring to Knightswords, not regular Swords.

Equip Sword should not include Knightswords because they should be a Knight's specialty otherwise people will stop using Knights unless they get a buff (+1sp or like... 1.5x more HPM or something...).

We know we prefer Lancers and armored units over them (knights).
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 13, 2009, 01:21:20 pm
great ideas.

First off, I overextended slightly.  A robe equip option has very little that can pair up with it, in fact the only thing that seems remotely fitting is Sticks.

So...

Equip Armor (heavy armor + helmets) -- Knight
Equip Mageset (sticks + robes, I guess?) -- Oracle
Equip Melee (swords + axes + flails) -- Squire
Equip Clothes (light armor + hats) -- Thief
Equip Bow (xbow + longbow) -- Archer
Equip Gun (pewpew) -- Mediator
Equip Spear -- Lancer
Equip Shield -- Knight

??

QuoteI'd rather lose Equip Shield since everything already has Weapon Guard innate.

That is a thought, but it's just as strong as Def Up or MDU; except instead of 66% blows 100% of the time it's 100% blows 66% of the time.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2009, 01:38:11 pm
I actually like the idea of Equip Spear allowing both Spears and Sticks as one Equip option, so I say stick with that honestly.  Anything that would practically use Equip Stick probably won't need the (Wizard) Robe anyway, so I'd rather pair Equip Robe with something else myself.

Equip Mageset can still be Robe, Staff, Book with ease.  Losing Rods (mostly losing Elemental Rods + Wizard Rod) is a blow, but I think access to Robes and Sticks as one Equip X option would still be good, and again it'd allow the user to go Robe + Book, since I foresee the 3 range of Books being much more valuable here, just like most other ranged abilities and weapons.  Though, with the 1.3 ridiculous Dragon Rod, maybe not being able to Equip Rod with this ability is for the best...

Rest looks good.  I actually wish we could pair something with Shields for Equip Shield, but I have no idea what.  Maybe I just undervalue evasion that isn't ridiculous Abandonhax because I hate relying on the RNG, but it's just something I see not worth the JP over Equip Armor or something.
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 13, 2009, 01:42:34 pm
QuoteEquip Mageset can still be Robe, Staff, Book with ease

No, it can't.  Robes are table 4D, meaning if I want robes I can only pull stuff from 4C and 4D.

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207)
Title:
Post by: Sephirot24 on November 13, 2009, 02:15:43 pm
You can't make Mageset: Robes, staffs and rods, and Equip polearm: Sticks and Spears then?
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 13, 2009, 02:24:15 pm
sticks and spears I can do.  4B+4C is nothing.  But 4B + 4D?  Not so much.  Sequential pairs only at this point.

But robes by themselves seem rather feeble, and sticks can pair up with robes.

edit: I can also do a hat + robe combo which can bring sticks + spears back into being as well -- still kills the option for rods/staves unless we nuke something else though.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2009, 02:52:14 pm
Quote from: "philsov"sticks and spears I can do.  4B+4C is nothing.  But 4B + 4D?  Not so much.  Sequential pairs only at this point.

But robes by themselves seem rather feeble, and sticks can pair up with robes.

edit: I can also do a hat + robe combo which can bring sticks + spears back into being as well -- still kills the option for rods/staves unless we nuke something else though.

Hm, Stick + Spear sounds like a good set still.  I really think we should stick with that.

I misread the part about sequential only.  Somehow.  I was thinking any two tables.

I don't think Robes are worth it without some weapons to go with them - unlike Clothes and such, most classes that can actually make good use of Robes can already equip them, with the only exception I can think of being Chemist for late game Black Robe + Elemental Gun... at which point the player can just be a Mediator with Throw Item anyway.

Equip Robe might be worth it for 1.3's Light Robe on some units, but it still feels more niche than a lot of other things.  Losing access to Wizard Robe kinda hurts it, but I think Equip Mageset being Staff / Rod / Book (if I'm reading this right, thoroughly possible) would be more worthwhile than being able to go Robe / Stick, because as said previously anything that can make good use of Sticks already has Robe access.  Same thing with Robe + Hat, the only things that can go Hat and would actually use a Robe over Clothes are Specials and Samurai.  And they mostly already can Equip Robe innate, so they can just slap on Equip Clothes to get the exact same Effect.
Title:
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 13, 2009, 03:59:56 pm
what about bundling robes in with bags, perfume and ribbons? it's the only other place they really fit, and then you get rod/staff/book for equip mageset and spear/stick for equip polearm
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2009, 04:18:43 pm
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"what about bundling robes in with bags, perfume and ribbons? it's the only other place they really fit, and then you get rod/staff/book for equip mageset and spear/stick for equip polearm

Bags / Perfumes / Ribbons are all equippable by all jobs and unisex now, iirc.

It'd be redundant.

The good news is this means we can make Cloud into a flamboyant homosexual no matter what class he's in!
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 13, 2009, 05:25:54 pm
Quotebut I think Equip Mageset being Staff / Rod / Book

Is a good idea.  We'll go with that and spears + sticks as previously planned :).  Goodbye robes~

edit:  But lancers with sticks and oracles with spears, by default?  Nah, a bit unweildy and really messes with the <random> equipment option for enemies.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2009, 06:20:05 pm
Quote from: "philsov"But lancers with sticks and oracles with spears, by default?  Nah, a bit unweildy and really messes with the <random> equipment option for enemies.

Lancers with Sticks, I can see being weird for <random>

If anything though, enemy male Oracles (which there are a lot of in 1.3, iirc) benefit from such a change.
Title:
Post by: iopyud on November 14, 2009, 03:38:50 am
How about you just give Equip Long Weapon to Oracle?
Oracles can run around with spears and sticks but we can't have Lancers with sticks.

And here's a thought: Instead of female only equips being unisex...

Bard: (Support) : Sexual Security : Be sexually secure and equip female-only accessories.
To compensate, female-only headgear should give a massive MP boost to complement MP-Switch? (This reaction skill is worthless for me, it only blocks 2 attacks at most).

Clothes would be a boost to Knight because it gives SP which they gravely need or PA which they already have lots of.
Doesn't make sense that they can wear robes to begin with...
I hope this will make Knights less... worthless. I really like Knights.

EDIT:

Dominic made a comment regarding Main Gauches and I agree.
They're parrying daggers, man. They need their WEv back. At least some of it...
Title:
Post by: philsov on November 14, 2009, 09:58:30 am
QuoteIf anything though, enemy male Oracles (which there are a lot of in 1.3, iirc) benefit from such a change.

Barely.  But not enough to justify it.

QuoteHow about you just give Equip Long Weapon to Oracle?
Oracles can run around with spears and sticks but we can't have Lancers with sticks.

Are you seriously suggesting that Lancers lose the equip spear support?

QuoteAnd here's a thought: Instead of female only equips being unisex...

No.  Males should not sacrifice a support slot to get perks like status immunity and perfume buffs while females don't have to.  That's the entire thing making them unisex is trying to fix.

MP Switch is getting removed from the generics, so I can give wizards Move MP Up and not recreating that awful combo.  Also MP Switch + Angel Song was borderline just as bad.

QuoteClothes would be a boost to Knight because it gives SP which they gravely need or PA which they already have lots of.

Not going to happen.  If Knights want to wear light armor, they can slap on the support ability.

QuoteDoesn't make sense that they can wear robes to begin with...

MP Based skillset + grants ability to be an effective status caster hybrid.

QuoteDominic made a comment regarding Main Gauches and I agree.
They're parrying daggers, man. They need their WEv back. At least some of it...

Or I can just change their name.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 14, 2009, 10:10:32 am
Quote from: "iopyud"]Clothes would be a boost to Knight because it gives SP which they gravely need or PA which they already have lots of.
Doesn't make sense that they can wear robes to begin with...
I hope this will make Knights less... worthless. I really like Knights.

Unisex accessories and Equip Clothes alone give Knights a bit more use, since you can get Auto-Haste or Auto-Protect/Shell while wielding male PA... or combine a Knight's high PA / HP with Thief Hat / Secret Clothes / etc to compensate for its Speed.

Plus, this game will see more clusterfucks and units that only run 2-3 tiles, while Knights have 3-panel debuffs and some of the best melee power in the game if they stay in range.

I'm pretty sure they become better by proxy.  But then again, a lot of things become better by proxy in this game, so it may all balance out.

Look at a Knight's sprite.  It's actually wearing a robe with a piece of heavy armor over it, so the sense is in the visual.  Plus, Knights are regal.  Robes are regal.  1 + 1 = Papaya.

EDIT -

Random thought.  

Implement Fury hack and lower all Brave values by 10 across the board, save the already low-Br units such as Rafa and Beowulf.

So Soldier's Office caps at 60 Br, etc.  Your main qualm before seemed to be 40 Br + Auto-Potion... but you nerfed Auto-Potion down a rather good sum, so that doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.  The main problem would be Reactions being a bit less consistent, I suppose.  Could lower Faith by 10 if you do this to keep things 'fair', if you wanted, but I don't know if that's exactly necessary.

I just really hate how the ONLY thing low Br gives you is better Move-Find Items... to the point where I think if the Fury hack ISN'T implemented, you may as well take out the bad-get Move-Find Item since good Move-Find Itemers besides Rafa / Beowulf are pretty much worthless for anything else, making the mechanic of low Br = better Move-Find Items pretty damn stupid.

Either that, or reverse Move-Find Item to work with high Br, if you can.  Though I really would like the Fury hack added somehow.  I just hate how little strategy goes into determining your Br/Fa values as it is, save deciding whether or not you want male unit X being good with Time and Yin-Yang Magics or not.
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Post by: philsov on November 14, 2009, 12:27:09 pm
but you also have to consider the opposite side of things.

Take queklain for example.  I like him with Critical Quick.  But do I want him to take 40% more melee damage as a result of it?  The same can be said for anything with a reaction I'd like to see trigger every time.  

No, my main qualm was numbers I had no desire to mess with, because its implementation WILL cause severe balance issues, on both sides of the field.  Now, on top of this, I cannot change the rando-range of anything in the first place.  

MFI can't be swapped around, but the loot itself can.  However, the only MFI's that actually matter, DD and Nelveska, are 100% regardless.  Is finding an iron sword instead of a potion at Zeklaus really an issue?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 14, 2009, 01:59:26 pm
Quote from: "philsov"MFI can't be swapped around, but the loot itself can.  However, the only MFI's that actually matter, DD and Nelveska, are 100% regardless.  Is finding an iron sword instead of a potion at Zeklaus really an issue?

No.

But not getting my god-be-damned Blood Sword during the Adramelk fight is.

There's a couple other good Move-Find Items as well, iirc.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 14, 2009, 04:59:57 pm
I hate it when I miss my Transparent Mantle.

Anyways, I think Truth and Un-truth's Vert only needs to be 2. I think Vert 3 is overkill.
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Post by: iopyud on November 14, 2009, 07:17:40 pm
@Truth-Untruth: My Rafalak hardly hits anything. I try to reduce the squares as much as possible, but...

QuoteAre you seriously suggesting that Lancers lose the equip spear support?

I just don't want AI Lancers with sticks. *Shrugs*
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Post by: Gotwald on November 14, 2009, 07:52:13 pm
You could just force a support onto every lancer in the whole game....
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Post by: philsov on November 15, 2009, 09:55:03 pm
well, most supports are already set as is.  The only things random are very very early enemies and most of the Random battle enemies.  

Also text edits can diaf.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 16, 2009, 01:25:39 am
Quote from: "iopyud"I just don't want AI Lancers with sticks. *Shrugs*

So what you mean to be saying is that you don't want a Lancer coming in with the Equip Spear Support Ability equipped and a Stick due to <random>.

It sounds like you want the ability removed from their Skillset, which is why people are like wtf.  I don't think a lot of Support Abilities are set to <random> anyway in 1.3, at least in the areas it'll begin to matter / Lancers show up as consistent enemies.
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Post by: iopyud on November 16, 2009, 06:24:06 am
Oh. It's fine then.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 17, 2009, 01:07:42 am
Odd thought, Philsov.

Since males will now be able to use Setiemson, what are we going to do about Excalibur?

It's completely outclassed since bigger Knight Sword + Setiemson will usually > it, or at worst be 1 point behind it but offer Always: Protect.

This seems like quite a shame for a technically 'unique' weapon.  The only time I'd see myself using it now is if I wanted to do a Knight / Special with both Initial: Haste and a Salty Rage.  :/

Got any ideas how to remedy the situation?

And also, since I don't remember if I brought it up before and just want to verify, you're debuffing Secret Clothes to only give +1 Sp in the same manner you debuffed Thief Hat, right?
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 17, 2009, 01:13:16 am
He's leaving Secret clothes with +2 because it's Rare equipment IIRC.

Also, I'd say leave Excalibur as it is. Not everyone is gonna want to equip that perfume.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 17, 2009, 01:17:36 am
Quote from: "Sephirot24"He's leaving Secret clothes with +2 because it's Rare equipment IIRC.

He's allowing it to be poached in Easytype.

Unless he makes it truly 'rare' equipment this time around, I say make it +1.  +2 Speed means a lot more when everything has less Speed.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Also, I'd say leave Excalibur as it is. Not everyone is gonna want to equip that perfume.

Excalibur is 2 points weaker than Save the Queen, and more than 3 weaker than everything else.  And Save the Queen gives Always: Protect, which looks like it could be worth a lot more in ASM'D.

That means other Knight Sword + Setiemson will always be more useful than Excalibur + Bracer, making Excalibur really only useful when you need a Salty Rage or a boatload of HP + widespread status protection since males also have Ribbon access.

The fact a piece of rare equipment gets completely dethroned via Poaching just doesn't seem right.  Especially when it's "Excalibur".
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Post by: Aquilae on November 17, 2009, 03:18:23 am
Excalibur + Bracer is easier to get than StQ / Ragnarok / Chaos Blade + Setiemson, and as you also mentioned, you can use it with Salty Rage. It does have uses and it's usefulness isn't directly determined by how it matches up against other swords. A Broadsword is useful in the early stretch of the game as it does higher damage than Crossbows and Daggers, but won't be used when better swords start coming out. That doesn't mean we should completely remove Broadsword from the game.

Also, StQ, Ragnarok and Chaos Blade come a lot later than Excalibur, so it's fair to say that they should outclass it.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 17, 2009, 03:26:11 am
Quote from: "Aquilae"Excalibur + Bracer is easier to get than StQ / Ragnarok / Chaos Blade + Setiemson, and as you also mentioned, you can use it with Salty Rage. It does have uses and it's usefulness isn't directly determined by how it matches up against other swords. A Broadsword is useful in the early stretch of the game as it does higher damage than Crossbows and Daggers, but won't be used when better swords start coming out. That doesn't mean we should completely remove Broadsword from the game.

Also, StQ, Ragnarok and Chaos Blade come a lot later than Excalibur, so it's fair to say that they should outclass it.

A Broadsword is also the first weapon in the game and isn't unique in any way, so the comparison is kinda skewered.

Though I s'pose that Excalibur + Salty Rage is worth keeping Excalibur as is.

The last line is true, I just didn't like by how much they seemed to do so.  But again, Salty Rage is probably even more amazing than I'm thinking it is in ASM'D, so eh.

That and Setiemson is pretty ridiculous.  It's hard not to be outclassed by a Setiemson combo, though I suppose it'll be easier to do so in ASM'D where that Initial: Haste is working off much lower Speed values.
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Post by: iopyud on November 17, 2009, 07:45:51 am
What if Excalibur gives Speed (1~2?) instead of Haste?
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Post by: philsov on November 17, 2009, 09:33:56 am
Excalibur's synergy with other perfumes is pretty badass, imo.

As for secret clothes, I don't really know about their +Sp.  I do know they will be truly rare, however.  Considering clothies get their SP boost from hats and armored get theirs from armor -- if left at 1 Sp it wouldn't be much better than a clothie with equip armor, save a little less health but a freed up support slot.  It'll probably stay 2 for now, but I'll keep my finger on that pulse.
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Post by: philsov on November 17, 2009, 01:43:13 pm
first post updated with most proposed changes to date.

I tried daggers with the gun formula, WP*WP with 100% hit rate (hit rate being the clencher here), but they were either too strong or too weak, pending relative placement.  In that stead, they're going back to their old formula [(PA + Sp) / 2], but will instead have a 25% chance to inflict various status (or multiple status, possibly even seperately for the end-game daggers).
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Post by: Dokurider on November 18, 2009, 04:20:34 pm
Hmm, that's too bad. I think we really do need a 100% hit rate item. Perhaps one of the endgame daggers should be 100% hit? Perhaps that should be the Main Gauche?
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Post by: Dominic NY18 on November 18, 2009, 05:03:18 pm
It may sound nitpicky, but unless said weapon is a knife/dagger with a better than average blocking rate, it shouldn't be called Main Gauche.

For anyone that's interested
Parrying daggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_gauche)

Actually, I recommend clicking it anyway, as it has an interesting illustration at the top of the page :).
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Post by: philsov on November 18, 2009, 05:25:56 pm
QuoteI think we really do need a 100% hit rate item

You mean like a gun?

:P
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 18, 2009, 05:31:10 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteI think we really do need a 100% hit rate item

You mean like a gun?

:P

Are there any empty weapon slots by any chance?

We need to make an ASM'D special item called "Chicken Gun" with the graphic of a warped chicken that always inflicts the Chicken status and does 1 damage.

Then add an enemy into the hardest Deep Dungeon fight and equip him with it, but not give him Maintenance so the player can steal it if they can survive long enough.

Would be amazing.
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Post by: Dokurider on November 18, 2009, 07:59:59 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteI think we really do need a 100% hit rate item

You mean like a gun?

:P

Oh u.

Opinions may differ, but I do get the occasional use out of Flails, especially when I'm dealing with low HP, High Evasion units and I can't use concentrate because I'm using it for something else, say Maintenance. Bervenia Free City being the prime example of that. Countering Ninjas with Ninjas, really. I really would like an item like that, though this patch may make that unnecessary.
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Post by: iopyud on November 19, 2009, 06:48:43 am
Is Poison getting a buff, btw?

I think it should have at least, summon-like AoE.
I never used this skill. I mean, I like it but I'd rather do 50-60% HP damage.
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Post by: Aquilae on November 19, 2009, 07:10:41 am
Poison rapes ??? status enemies really hard though. Of course, there aren't any in vanilla, only ones are in 1.3 DD, but it could help in random battles with these enemies, assuming philsov wants to implement it.
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Post by: philsov on November 19, 2009, 11:20:59 am
Quote from: "Dokurider"
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteI think we really do need a 100% hit rate item

You mean like a gun?

:D
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Post by: iopyud on November 22, 2009, 12:24:14 am
If Knives are 100% Hit and 1 SP, are you going to give Flails a boost?

Re: Poison - Smart Targeting might be good as well, otherwise people won't use them. I mean, they'd rather 2Hit Kill something rather than poison everything including allies...
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 22, 2009, 02:07:48 am
Quote from: "iopyud"If Knives are 100% Hit and 1 SP, are you going to give Flails a boost?

Knives do not give 1 Sp in FFT: ASM'D.

Sp boosts are going to be far rarer in ASM'D, and the overall top Speeds of most units without any Speed boosting is going to be far lower.

This goes a long ways to balancing things such as Haste, Stop, Slow, etc. at higher Levels, and makes most Magic variants more useful during the end game.
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Post by: iopyud on November 22, 2009, 08:39:56 am
I must have missed that.

This is really looking really good.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 29, 2009, 03:32:25 am
I know you have most of the technical changes already input, philsov, but here's a quick question for you:

Can you make Sunken State / Invisible status in general increase the evasion of the invisible unit, in addition to the 100% whap?

Maybe make it increase that unit's evasion the same way a unit under Blind status attacking it does, which iirc is either x1.5 or x2?

Being Invisible is rather worthless right now, tbh, so above seems cool since it makes sense and gives players a reason to actually not take their free concentrated attack on the first possible opportunity since even the average Invisible unit actually has a chance of not getting rapeknocked out of the status with the span of one turn or so.
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Post by: Sephirot24 on November 29, 2009, 12:43:21 pm
And it makes sense that being less visible your foe has a lower chance to hit you. Nice.
You'll have to see what are the possible options to this.
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Post by: Zaen on November 29, 2009, 01:08:07 pm
It'd make sense. Transparent, see through. Harder to see, harder to hit.

Then, you could make Ghouls being permanent Transparent, so they're more of a threat, without needing to make any boosts. That'd be rather awesome.

One question on Transparent. Does it go away if you're being attacked, but the attack misses? I know it does if the attack connects, but if it doesn't? That'd be a very useful status it it did that AND raised evade.
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Post by: SilvasRuin on November 29, 2009, 09:05:39 pm
QuoteMaybe make it increase that unit's evasion the same way a unit under Blind status attacking it does, which iirc is either x1.5 or x2?

Being Invisible is rather worthless right now, tbh, so above seems cool since it makes sense and gives players a reason to actually not take their free concentrated attack on the first possible opportunity since even the average Invisible unit actually has a chance of not getting rapeknocked out of the status with the span of one turn or so.
Blink!  Give that to White Mages or something of the sort!  (Maybe remove the accuracy if it is too potent to be applied via a spell like Protect?)
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 30, 2009, 03:33:39 am
Quote from: "Zaen"One question on Transparent. Does it go away if you're being attacked, but the attack misses? I know it does if the attack connects, but if it doesn't? That'd be a very useful status it it did that AND raised evade.

I'm almost 100% sure you get to stay Invisible if the attack misses.

Quote from: "SilvasRuin"Blink!  Give that to White Mages or something of the sort!  (Maybe remove the accuracy if it is too potent to be applied via a spell like Protect?)

I don't think making a target Invisible would be a problem, even with the evasion buff.  You're giving up one character's turn to give another character a status they lose the second they act or are successfully attacked through the evasion a single time.

I just don't think philsov has any empty ability slots left - most of the useless moves have already been removed and replaced or modified to be made better already, and all the removed abilities that modded Br/Fa were also mostly added back in due to the Br/Fa modding not being permanent anymore.
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Post by: philsov on November 30, 2009, 10:39:31 am
QuoteCan you make Sunken State / Invisible status in general increase the evasion of the invisible unit, in addition to the 100% whap?

It's the same as many of the things you've asked.  Can it be done in a hypothetical general idea, yes.  Can I?  No.  

Regarding transparency in general, while I think the ASM hack for enemy attacking is warranted (there's no cheese quite like cornered transwall), what I can do is make transparency have a set duration instead of being canceled on hit/action.  Least, I think.  I'll need to toy with it.  But... that's about all I can do.  Great idea on blink, I may end up consolidating another ability for it, dunno.  But that will only come into fruitation once I'm done with transparent itself; if I can't make it like a normal status then there's no point because the AI thinks its a positive status and it hates canceling those :p.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 30, 2009, 02:24:13 pm
Quote from: "philsov"It's the same as many of the things you've asked.  Can it be done in a hypothetical general idea, yes.  Can I?  No.

lrn2ASM.  :(

Quote from: "philsov"Regarding transparency in general, while I think the ASM hack for enemy attacking is warranted (there's no cheese quite like cornered transwall), what I can do is make transparency have a set duration instead of being canceled on hit/action.  Least, I think.  I'll need to toy with it.  But... that's about all I can do.  Great idea on blink, I may end up consolidating another ability for it, dunno.  But that will only come into fruitation once I'm done with transparent itself; if I can't make it like a normal status then there's no point because the AI thinks its a positive status and it hates canceling those :p.

If it can be made into set duration + lose on hit, I guess that's a temporary fix, even if it kills the flavor of Transparent a bit.
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Post by: philsov on December 07, 2009, 10:28:40 pm
ok, transparent can't be "fixed" via fftpatcher.  Lame.

However, I do have some great news!  I've completed all the text edits and did some follow-through in the rest of patcher!  This means....

(http://www.arasoo.com/pb/wp_f582c287/images/img258848cc7d007fef5.jpg)

!!!!!!!!!

That said, Raven and Seph, you both should be getting a little message in your inbox with files and instructions~

Big things I'm looking for:

Might v. Magic.  Was melee nerfed too much?  Samu and Ninja don't have innate 2H/DW, thieves don't have innate concentrate, and monks don't have innate martial arts.  Oh, and everyone gained 10-20% evasion between innate weapon guard and global class evade.  On a similar note, since speed growth got reduced spells are less of a liability in mid-late game.  Are they now too fast/too strong?  

Output of the "newer" weapons Namely daggers, axes, flails, longbows, and ninja swords.  Daggers gained WP*WP damage with 100% hit.  Axes/flails gained the new formula which does at minimum PA*WP damage but at most does almost PA^2 * WP.  Their current WPs are just rough guesses, please let me know if the damage actually is too low/high.  Longbows and Ninja swords had their mid-late WP increased to make up for the lack of SP stat, but the late late ones may need more.  Dunno.  Keep an eye out for them too please.

The state of endgame evasion stacking.  In retrospect I really need to give more ENTD enemies concentrate; but past that point, is it simply just too good in the context of battle?

Minor things to toy with

Br/Fa modding in battle.  Is it ever a worthwhile action to boost/reduce Br/Fa by 10?

New elemental.  Some of the panels are now pure PA based, some are pure MA based, and others retain their hybrid formula.   In game text reflects this.  Is this a worthwhile move?  Or is elemental too cumbersome now?

Summon/Draw Out AoE  Draw Out, for the most part, hits all the targets in the effect range.  But, the AoE is a lot less standard as there is now a healthy mix of 3-way and linear attacks along with the stand blast radius stuff going on.  Kiyomori and Murasame are ally-only, but the AoE is now reduced by 1.  Summon Magic has the same mix of 3-ways, lines, and blasts, while mostly having smart targeting.  Ifrit, Salamander, and Cyclops do not distinguish between friend and foe.

Item  Does everything actually work there?  Are the 3 new status abilities even remotely useful?

ENTD followthrough  The only bastards that should have teleport, move +3, hamedo/abandon/MP Switch are bosses.  Keep an eye out, ya?

Anything else that also changed  Counter secret fist, Poison Blade, the new supports, the R/S/M juggle (btw, Caution is now with the monks so thieves could take equip clothes), Mimes now without Monster but with Counter and Counter Magic.  Oh, and the monsters all have caution secondary reaction now.

Play only though Elmdor/Zelera;  once I get a better feel on the fights to do I'll create the new war trophy fights and touch up the remainders.  Oh, and I haven't fixed the poaching list yet so don't poach please >_>.
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Post by: philsov on December 07, 2009, 10:59:22 pm
Updated the title so I can hopefully grab a few more looks.

I would enjoy someone's artistic hands at a relatively simple task -- I would like to rename all the chapters in the storyline.  They are 256x62 .gif files, largely transparent like the image you see at the bottom of the screen.  However, I'd like to keep the exact chapter names a surprise so if you're interested in trying, do let me know and I'll pass over the more advanced details no problem.
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 07, 2009, 11:50:20 pm
Sorry this suggestion is a bit late, but can we make guns range 6 and give -1 move? Or maybe range 5. Just in the interest of balance, and not being able to create a character that can just run around and shoot everything forever.
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Post by: philsov on December 08, 2009, 09:08:31 am
can't give anything a movement penalty.

But the gun thing is a valid concern; I'm pretty sure Raven is itching to exploit it if possible and I'll try a bit of gun and run myself whenever I make my way there.  But honestly I don't think it'll be an overpowered tactic.

Edit:  Guns are already 6 range as is.  8 is hax :p
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Post by: Pickle Girl Fanboy on December 08, 2009, 12:23:19 pm
Holy crap, you hacked Counter Tackle!  Great job!
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Post by: Zaen on December 08, 2009, 04:52:17 pm
That's a very good point.. 8 range, 5 move max.. I could see issues. But if it works with the vanilla range, it's not a big deal by any means.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 12, 2009, 08:49:21 pm
Since I've received the prototype for ASM'd off philsov a few days ago, there's probably going to be a stream tomorrow with it involved.

No.

Come hell or high water, there WILL be a goddamn stream of this game unless I fail at making it run or I get extremely tied up scrambling over my car whose engine blew today on the way to college.  At 8 in the morning.  In the fucking freezing snow.  :/

I'll try to remember to post in thread with channel link tomorrow right before I start so people who don't normally use FFH chat or follow me on justin.tv can watch if they're interested, as it'll probably be the only thing I stream tomorrow unless I feel the need for suffering at I Wanna Be The Guy or a warmup via Power Rangers: The Fighting Edition.  Lol.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 13, 2009, 07:27:46 pm
Doubleposted to let anyone on here but not on chat know I'm starting a stream of this... about now, starting with me getting the damn thing set up.

Probably will be streaming it for most of the night, so click here (http://www.justin.tv/ravenofrazgriz/old) if you want to see how ASM'D beta shapes up in play.  Yes, this is philsov approved.
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Post by: Dokurider on December 15, 2009, 04:35:08 pm
QuoteNew elemental. Some of the panels are now pure PA based, some are pure MA based, and others retain their hybrid formula. In game text reflects this. Is this a worthwhile move? Or is elemental too cumbersome now?

I've been meaning to comment on this for a while, but I think this is a great idea. Not only does it make the player pay more attention to the terrain, but it also expands the amount of classes that can use Elemental effectively.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 15, 2009, 05:12:38 pm
Preliminary playtesting results:

From Orbonnne Monastery to Sweegy Woods:

Orbonne Monastery played out easily.  Then again, I'm used to 1.3 Orbonne Monastery so I was expecting a challenge.  It seems good enough for getting used to the ASM'D movement ranges though while still being a challenge for someone not used to Final Fantasy Tactics hacks.

Gariland Magic City had a couple problems.  Not difficulty-wise, just enemy unit placement seemed to be way too far away.  It took ages to get the fight going since the best ranged attacks at either team's disposal was a pair of Bow Guns.  Maybe move all the melee units on their side up a little, potentially the Chemist as well.  Since there's no real ranged options on either team, this fight should still turn into a melee fuckfest quickly in my opinion so the player can get used to doing melee with 2-3 move.

Mandalia Plains... this is where I noticed something.  Red Panthers are doing almost 50 damage at Level 2.  Is this intentional?  It oneshots almost everything the player has access to, and twoshots them even if you Potion the damaged unit.  It might just be a side effect of one of the buffs you gave to monsters, but goddamn it surprised me.  Once I was used to it, things went alright, but damn.  Also, Gil Taking (or whatever you renamed it to) causing Confusion makes this fight a real bitch early on, especially when combined with the beastly panther.  Not sure if it needs to be toned a bit due to how early on it is, since its not undoable... it's just really surprising.

Random Battle coming from Igros Castle in Mandalia Plains: This fight needs a major overhaul.  That Red Panther, as beast as he is, starts way too damn close to the enemy, and the low move makes it impossible to get to him in time while still being spread out enough to not get raped by their Black Magic units, especially since they have a lot of 3 Move Squires.  Wow, afraid of Squires, rue the day.  I think you can fix this easily by moving the Red Panther back a lot closer to the starting position and spreading the enemy out some to compensate for their superior Move against your non-Squire units since this is about the time the player is probably going to begin experimenting with Knights.

Lots of Bow Guns and Throw Stone walked into Sweegy Woods, and beat up these poor monsters.  The Bombs were quite threatening, but their Flame Attack actually did not-retarded damage so they were manageable.  The Goblins never got close, so I can't comment on whether they have the ridiculous punching power the Red Panther does.  Their Turn Punch wasn't too ridiculous though.  Overall easy fight since I went in with almost all Bow Guns and Throw Stone units (but no Magic!), but I can see it easily getting messy for someone trying to melee.  Maybe Goblins should be forward some so they can get in against ranged units?  Like I said, the worst that happened to me was a max-ranged Turn Punch and maybe a single tackle against a bait unit.

Other notes:

My Knight Ramza with 7 PA does 35 damage with a Long Sword, but 49 with his fists to a neutral Red Panther.  Something seems wrong here... maybe you somehow gave everything innate Martial Arts by accident when trying to remove it from Monk?  

Text isn't edited.  Maybe I'm just partially retarded and didn't install ASM'D correctly, though.

Battle Boots aren't fixed.  That's a really big issue early game.

Special Classes (at least, those of C1 Ramza/Algus/Delita) aren't edited at all.  Also, using Counter Tackle with these classes causes some odd effect where the Secret Fist animation goes off, but the Sprite tackles, and has 50% Death Sentence instead of the PA*Whatever Secret Fist Damage with 100% Blind.  Simply using Dash leads to the same effect.  They also have Move +1, which is a big problem as well early game.

Again, I want to know if the damage monsters are doing with physical attacks is a flaw like my Knight Ramza's fists or intentional.



I think that covers everything I was able to do on Stream two nights ago.
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Post by: philsov on December 15, 2009, 05:28:53 pm
great news to hear.

Regarding the text edits... I think you're just partially retarded.  Open up the file in tactext and patch iso again.  If that doesn't work I'll get creative.

The buff to panthers isn't intentional; the only thing I did to monsters was give them caution as a secondary reaction.  I do know their primary attack is both PA and Br dependent, so a little bit of RNG might have just boned you over.

Great notes on the placement fixes, keep it up.

No way did I give everyone innate Martial Arts, and 49 is a peculiar number because its only factors at 7 by 7.  Meaning... you had 100 Br, at least mechanically speaking trusting that they were indeed neutral compat.  This would also trickle into the monster attacks, since if the game thinks they're at 100 Br they'd be exceptionally well.  On the same note, are you seeing 100% Reaction rates?

Counter Tackle is Counter Secret Fist.  that's intentional and something fancy on the Monk class (and specials I failed to edit).  Conversely Dash IS secret fist effect, and on your untexted iso Dash should be a monk skill while Secret Fist is the squire skill.  Secret Fist squire skill is the Blind Blade attack that does standard weapon dmg + 100% Blind.  The old old Dash where you tackled for crap damage is just gone because it sucked.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 15, 2009, 05:59:03 pm
Quote from: "philsov"great news to hear.

Regarding the text edits... I think you're just partially retarded.  Open up the file in tactext and patch iso again.  If that doesn't work I'll get creative.

I'll mess with it and see what happens.

Quote from: "philsov"The buff to panthers isn't intentional; the only thing I did to monsters was give them caution as a secondary reaction.  I do know their primary attack is both PA and Br dependent, so a little bit of RNG might have just boned you over.

So Br must be being removed from the equation somehow?

Quote from: "philsov"No way did I give everyone innate Martial Arts, and 49 is a peculiar number because its only factors at 7 by 7.  Meaning... you had 100 Br, at least mechanically speaking trusting that they were indeed neutral compat.  This would also trickle into the monster attacks, since if the game thinks they're at 100 Br they'd be exceptionally well.  On the same note, are you seeing 100% Reaction rates?

Exactly why I noted it.

No, I'm not seeing 100% reactions, thank god.  Maybe the *Br just got removed somehow when editing the Katana's damage formula?

Quote from: "philsov"Counter Tackle is Counter Secret Fist.  that's intentional and something fancy on the Monk class (and specials I failed to edit).  Conversely Dash IS secret fist effect, and on your untexted iso Dash should be a monk skill while Secret Fist is the squire skill.  Secret Fist squire skill is the Blind Blade attack that does standard weapon dmg + 100% Blind.  The old old Dash where you tackled for crap damage is just gone because it sucked.

I see.

I'm just saying that it does the Tackle animation over the Punch animation (Maybe rename it to Counter Secret Tackle if that's something you experience as well, IDK?).  Blind Blade works properly, though, from what I can see, though I don't know what animation is being triggered. Explains why Specials using Dash get the Secret Fist effect and not Blind Blade, however.




I had a random thought, btw.  For Equip Melee, would it be worth testing changing it from Axe/Flail/Sword to Axe/Flail/Sword/Katana/Ninja Sword and allowing Squire to equip all five of these naturally?

Since it's Squire, it shouldn't be OP damage-wise and gives Squire more long-term usability via Katanas.  Especially in Chapter 2 where you get a bunch of Katanas well before any normal human being will have a Samurai.

Granted that Squires (and by extension, Basic Skill) are better in ASM'D, would it be a change worth testing once we've gone through more of a beta of the current version, or even just doing now?
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 18, 2009, 02:56:12 pm
Assuming this is based off 1.3, nerf Dragon Rod WP, otherwise you'll get ninjas doing 400 damage and casting Bahamut at the same time.
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Post by: philsov on December 18, 2009, 03:16:33 pm
ninjas don't have innate dual wield, it's a non issue :).  Once you're done with chapter 1 I'll throw another patcher file your way with fixes for abilities/classes so far.
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Post by: Zaen on December 18, 2009, 07:12:20 pm
Thing with squires is the whole reason they're useless is because of their growths. I don't remember, since it's been a large number of pages.. but did the growths get bumped up from 60 PA and MA and the likes?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 18, 2009, 08:46:28 pm
Quote from: "philsov"I don't think we should overextend the Equip Meleeset support to include Katanas and Ninja Swords.

It'd be one ability doing a lot, for sure, but Ninja Swords are weaker in ASM'D due to Speed Formula and lower Speeds, and Equip Knife was never a problem in the past / is gone now.

Since we can't make more "Equip X" abilities, I just thought having the flexibility to do so with Katanas and stuff would make them more useful during the earlier game phases and make things more customizable in general.  Besides, then it would truly be "Equip MELEE MOTHERFUCKER", lol.

Quote from: "philsov"But allowing the Squire class a wider choice of equipment can't be a bad thing, so that'll probably happen.  They'll probaby gets spears as well :).  Once you're done with chapter 1 I'll throw another patcher file your way with fixes for abilities/classes so far.

Alright.

Hm.  This makes me wonder if it'd be worth giving all classes innate Equip Change?

Weaker classes like Squire that can use a variety of weapons would benefit from it rather greatly, and unlike innate Defend on everything it won't mess up the game's AI.

Squires having access to Swords / Spears / Bow Guns / Katanas / Ninja Swords / Daggers / Shields and Equip Change to juggle it around to the situation would be a good way to make up for their shit multipliers from the player's perspective, even if it still doesn't let us put Squires faithfully onto maps under the AI's control.

Also, can you fix Ramza/Delita to be able to equip Shields during Chapter 1 for the sake of consistency between Squires?

Quote from: "Zaen"Thing with squires is the whole reason they're useless is because of their growths. I don't remember, since it's been a large number of pages.. but did the growths get bumped up from 60 PA and MA and the likes?

I don't think so.

But that extra Move Point means oh so much more in ASM'D than it would in Vanilla.  Plus their skillset is buffed.  Again.

And my latest suggestion regarding Equip Change.
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 18, 2009, 11:27:54 pm
Extra weapon equip options are worthless. Katanas suck without 2 hands b/c they're Brave based, so the only options that matter are Spears, Daggers, Spell Edge, and Bow Guns, and out of those, if all the WPs are at 1.3 levels, Bow Guns are the best, so guess what they're gonna be using? The extra 2 WP you get using a Rune Blade over a Gastrafitis doesn't justify losing the tactical advantage of striking from 4 panels away. 14 over 10 is a bigger difference, if we're at vanilla stats, but in that case it's a choice between an Oberisk and a Gastrafitis. At the moment, equip options aren't really that important, especially not in the way of weapons, because everyone will just use whatever gives them the biggest bonus, meaning that at any given time, you're choosing between items within 1 WP or so of each other, and range is usually > all.

To make them actually worth a damn, weapons have to have gigantic differences in them. Knives' speed boost is huge, as is the Bow Gun's range, but everything else is pretty much moot.

My opinion:

Swords given large weapon evade %, if possible make part of it apply to M-Ev.
Spears given a WP boost or Crossbows given a WP Nerf. Maybe 1 point of both.
Ninja Swords get status effects
Katanas have something unique, maybe like one has Always:Haste, and Initial: Death Sentence, or Always: Berserk and Regen

If you wanted to go the extra mile to making all weapons pretty much equivalent in terms of utility, and stop me if this is impossible, make them all have the same formula as normal unarmed strikes, and have some of the more powerful weapons add PA.

Extra move point is really cool.
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Post by: Zaen on December 18, 2009, 11:41:44 pm
Make the Katanas elemental, based on the lore behind them/their names? Or make them have a chance of different spells being cast, from status to magic. Slash Asura, and watch fire being cast on an opponent, or Bizen Boat and they get drained MP.

Ninja Swords... I dunno about status effects. Maybe a speed point for the upper ones?

As for the formula changes.. Sometimes, it could work. I can see Swords, Spears, Katanas, Bows, and Greatswords having PA*WP straight out. Ninja Blades and Daggers make sense to be built on speed, and keep Staff and Pole with the MA*WP, with Books changing to that. For Rod, PA*WP should probably still apply, as they're meant to boost magic than anything else. Of course, WP*WP sounds ideal for Crossbow, as how does being stronger affect a trigger? Cloth could be (WP+PA)/2*SP possibly, and Harps.. whatever works, most likely WP*MA. That covers everything, right?
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 18, 2009, 11:46:43 pm
You ignored dictionaries.

Elemental Katanas is good, but it pretty much makes the default Samurai accessory 108 gems.

Idea for a cool weapon: Always Haste, Undead, Poison.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 19, 2009, 12:10:33 am
Quote from: "woodenbandman"Extra weapon equip options are worthless. Katanas suck without 2 hands b/c they're Brave based

Katanas are not Brave based in ASM'D.

They're PA*WP with some extra W-EV over most other weapons.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"so the only options that matter are Spears, Daggers, Spell Edge, and Bow Guns, and out of those, if all the WPs are at 1.3 levels, Bow Guns are the best, so guess what they're gonna be using? The extra 2 WP you get using a Rune Blade over a Gastrafitis doesn't justify losing the tactical advantage of striking from 4 panels away. 14 over 10 is a bigger difference, if we're at vanilla stats, but in that case it's a choice between an Oberisk and a Gastrafitis. At the moment, equip options aren't really that important, especially not in the way of weapons, because everyone will just use whatever gives them the biggest bonus, meaning that at any given time, you're choosing between items within 1 WP or so of each other, and range is usually > all.

You're only thinking in terms of range, which is really important in this hack but in this instance is being slightly overvalued.

Global C-EV and innate Weapon Guard all make Evasion a big factor.  Katanas are straight PA*WP with iirc 15% W-Ev (the most of any non-Two Hands Only weapon), and Squires have the option of Shields with their new Blind Blade attack that inflicts 100% blind on a target, allowing them to evade-hax rather well.  They also have the extra Move compared to other melee classes to justify melee over range if there's enough evasion involved to block non-gun ranged moves.  Plus, Two Hands access means you can pack a far bigger punch with a Katana while simultaneously Blind'ing the adversary.

Spears also have rather nice WP and more W-Ev than Bow Guns, so they're similar to Katanas but with more range.

You're also forgetting the opponent's evasion.  Range is > all when you hit, and unless you're packing Concentrate the enemy melee units can stack some nice evasion off on you.  If a Knight or other melee unit Speed Ruins you, you're also in dire straights because they'll get in close and beat the shit out of you since the closest thing you have to a good responding reaction is Auto Potion, which only heals 100 in ASM'D.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"To make them actually worth a damn, weapons have to have gigantic differences in them. Knives' speed boost is huge, as is the Bow Gun's range, but everything else is pretty much moot.

Knives don't give Speed in ASM'D.  They're 100% hit.

You're making all these arguments with no apparent knowledge with the changes ASM'D actually put in place on top of or in place of the ones done in 1.3.

Go read over everything and then re-evaluate your position on these things.

Bow Guns are amazing early game, but later game HP / damage / evasions stacks as well as magic really put them about on the level, if not a little behind it.

Quote from: "Zaen"Make the Katanas elemental, based on the lore behind them/their names? Or make them have a chance of different spells being cast, from status to magic. Slash Asura, and watch fire being cast on an opponent, or Bizen Boat and they get drained MP.

Would be cool, but as stated before, Katanas have WP superior to Swords, more W-Ev with innate Weapon Guard, and no longer require Brave to deal damage.

Quote from: "Zaen"Ninja Swords... I dunno about status effects. Maybe a speed point for the upper ones?

Ninja Swords do need something to compensate for Speed formula.

Quote from: "Zaen"As for the formula changes.. Sometimes, it could work. I can see Swords, Spears, Katanas, Bows, and Greatswords having PA*WP straight out.

Everything here but Long Bows already DO use the PA*WP in ASM'D.

Either people need to read the OP or philsov needs to stop being a lazy fuck and update it.  IDK which.
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 19, 2009, 01:57:13 am
RE: Daggers: Okay, it wasn't in the first post, I'm not reading all 21 pages. I thought that was Flails anyway.

RE: Concentrate. It's either Concentrate, Attack UP, Two Swords or Two Hands. MAYBE defense up, but on a physical character, there's not a lot else to use your support slot on. Concentrate is probably the best or second best physical support skill in the game, and is IMO far and away the best for ranged characters. I use Concentrate on all my physical attackers in 1.3, unless I'm doing a Martial Arts ninja, and this is based on Easytype 1.3. If defenses scale so much as to exceed 50% (with Abandon in play, it's likely), I'm going Concentrate literally 100% of the time. Screw all that "hope you hit through 30% on a mantle+Shield+weapon guard combo.

So forgive me if I assume that concentrate is in play.

RE: Katanas: yeah, I missed that, mah bad.

RE: Spears: They're now pretty much the best melee weapon, with 2 range to prevent hamedo/concentrate from most people, and improving PA. I think that they should actually be forced 2 handed. Assuming Oberisk is still 12 WP and Holy Lance is still 14, I see little reason to choose a Rune blade or an Ice Brand over an equivalent spear. Ice Brand + 108 Gems is better than Oberisk, but then Holy Lances come into play and they get 108 gems and they're on top again.

So equipment options are in order of goodness: Spears/Crossbows, and everything else. Spears grant + PA, have elemental strengthening and reach, and Crossbows have a big range, which is huge in a game where the move range has been gimped. Guns would be phenomenal on a unit with 7 move (Squire + Equip Gun + Move + 2 + Germinas Boots), so they're pretty far up there on the equip options chain too.

I think that something should be done so that no weapon is objectively better than another, Especially with this new set of abilities that open up universal equip options.

It'd be really nice if early weapons still retained advantages that made them better suited to a certain situation than other weapons, similar to how a Twist Headband/Power Sleeve combo remains good even in the after-game, when rubber costumes and thief hats are around (admittedly I'd take a thief hat over a twist headband any day). Is my previous suggestion of making all weapons work like accessories that modify PA, and making all weapons do damage as fists do, at all feasible? That way a sword would pretty much always do more damage than a spear, and it'd have a cool effect besides, like one sword has better evade, and one sword grants protect.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 19, 2009, 03:08:02 am
Quote from: "woodenbandman"RE: Daggers: Okay, it wasn't in the first post, I'm not reading all 21 pages. I thought that was Flails anyway.

Yeah, I think philsov changed them into set damage 100% accuracy or something.

I forget the particulars but I know they're 100%.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"RE: Concentrate. It's either Concentrate, Attack UP, Two Swords or Two Hands. MAYBE defense up, but on a physical character, there's not a lot else to use your support slot on. Concentrate is probably the best or second best physical support skill in the game, and is IMO far and away the best for ranged characters. I use Concentrate on all my physical attackers in 1.3, unless I'm doing a Martial Arts ninja, and this is based on Easytype 1.3. If defenses scale so much as to exceed 50% (with Abandon in play, it's likely), I'm going Concentrate literally 100% of the time. Screw all that "hope you hit through 30% on a mantle+Shield+weapon guard combo.

So forgive me if I assume that concentrate is in play.

Luckily in ASM'D, normal characters cannot learn Abandon.  So the only way to get majorly evasion haxed is end game or getting hit with Blind, as many of the evasion numbers were slashed in order to make everything flow well.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"RE: Katanas: yeah, I missed that, mah bad.

Yeah, Katanas are bad ass in ASM'D.  Losing the Br aspect of the formula makes them rather nice melee weapons.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"RE: Spears: They're now pretty much the best melee weapon, with 2 range to prevent hamedo/concentrate from most people, and improving PA. I think that they should actually be forced 2 handed. Assuming Oberisk is still 12 WP and Holy Lance is still 14, I see little reason to choose a Rune blade or an Ice Brand over an equivalent spear. Ice Brand + 108 Gems is better than Oberisk, but then Holy Lances come into play and they get 108 gems and they're on top again.

Yeah, Spears / Sticks get a lot better in ASM'D as in-hand weapons, for sure.  Not sure which way is best to go to balance things out, though.  Giving them both force Two Hands and a bit more power to make them somewhere between a one-handed weapon and a two-handed one is tempting, but I want to playtest with them some before I commit that suggestion.

Swords probably need a buff in some way if we leave Spears/Sticks untouched, though, as they become rather lackluster on anything that can equip anything else.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"So equipment options are in order of goodness: Spears/Crossbows, and everything else. Spears grant + PA, have elemental strengthening and reach, and Crossbows have a big range, which is huge in a game where the move range has been gimped. Guns would be phenomenal on a unit with 7 move (Squire + Equip Gun + Move + 2 + Germinas Boots), so they're pretty far up there on the equip options chain too.

You're overrating Crossbows.  With only 4 range, you're forced to play poke and run to not eat a powerful Katana / etc blow to the face in reply, and the enemy can just stay out of your range since there's no reason to rush a gunner unless there's no other enemies left.  And again, they can easily use ranged skills to match your Crossbow.

Also, the max Move in this game is 6 as far as I can see.  Highest base Move is 3, Move +2, Germinas Boots give +1 Move.  Rubber Costume might also give +1 Move, but its essentially on the level of Maximillian in this hack.  I'm also of the odd opinion that it might be worth Philsov just tossing Move +2 entirely, but eh.

Guns also currently only have 6 range, and I intend to try making all-gunner parties at some point to see if I can break ASM'D with them or not in the spirit of the Chemist SCC or something.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"I think that something should be done so that no weapon is objectively better than another, Especially with this new set of abilities that open up universal equip options.

That's always the goal, but one must remember that using an ability to equip a more powerful weapon means you lose out on your Support Ability, meaning no (X) UP skills, no Concentrate, etc., so you either forgo those in a game where they're probably more important than ever or get stuck to the small pool of units that uses Crossbows / Spears / Sticks.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"It'd be really nice if early weapons still retained advantages that made them better suited to a certain situation than other weapons, similar to how a Twist Headband/Power Sleeve combo remains good even in the after-game, when rubber costumes and thief hats are around (admittedly I'd take a thief hat over a twist headband any day). Is my previous suggestion of making all weapons work like accessories that modify PA, and making all weapons do damage as fists do, at all feasible? That way a sword would pretty much always do more damage than a spear, and it'd have a cool effect besides, like one sword has better evade, and one sword grants protect.

I'm thinking if we end up making Spears / Sticks Two Hands Only with a minor boost to compensate for lack of L Hand weapon / Two Hands boosting, everything evens out a lot except maybe Guns.  4 range on Crossbows is noteworthy, but without Equip Bow only two lower level classes have access to them while still being able to use Concentrate and many other weapons should be out-WP'ing them or otherwise providing noteworthy benefits.  Plus like I said, 4 range isn't enough to keep away from melee units with ranged skills... or Magic, honestly.  You must also remember all forms of magic in this as well, since if the weapon gets crapped on by mages its going to be less attractive anyway.
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Post by: Archael on December 19, 2009, 12:06:08 pm
Concentrate is inferior to ATTACK UP in many situations
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Post by: Zaen on December 19, 2009, 12:09:24 pm
Ok, sorry about the redundancy, forgot that almost all of the ASM hacks are in here. Too many pages to check through, though and I usually just go to the current one.

As for Two Hands only Spears, that's... eh. They need a shield. Maybe compensate with +1 PA or something?
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 19, 2009, 12:15:03 pm
Quote from: "Voldemort"Concentrate is inferior to ATTACK UP in many situations

I agree.

I find Two Swords/Hands or Attack UP to be superior most of the time since good positioning can compensate for almost anything besides Mantle Evasion unless you're doing a blitzkrieg assassination.

At which point, it depends how much you want to reset for power vs accuracy since you're only killing one dude within one or two turns anyway.

Quote from: "Zaen"Ok, sorry about the redundancy, forgot that almost all of the ASM hacks are in here. Too many pages to check through, though and I usually just go to the current one.

As for Two Hands only Spears, that's... eh. They need a shield. Maybe compensate with +1 PA or something?

Spears in ASM'D already give +1 PA, IIRC.
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Post by: Zaen on December 19, 2009, 08:08:58 pm
BLJAKSHDFLAJSDhf.

I fail. Please ignore me until I read through all 22 pages.
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Post by: Dokurider on December 19, 2009, 08:30:56 pm
Can't wait to get my grimy hands on this.
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Post by: woodenbandman on December 19, 2009, 09:34:11 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"I find Two Swords/Hands or Attack UP to be superior most of the time since good positioning can compensate for almost anything besides Mantle Evasion unless you're doing a blitzkrieg assassination.


For one unit. I generally prefer Concentrate, because if you have 4 units and they all attack one dude, that's 4 guaranteed hit, with attack up that's one 70% hit from the rear, and a few 50% hits from the sides.
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Post by: philsov on December 19, 2009, 10:21:00 pm
QuoteRE: Spears: They're now pretty much the best melee weapon, with 2 range to prevent hamedo/concentrate from most people, and improving PA. I think that they should actually be forced 2 handed. Assuming Oberisk is still 12 WP and Holy Lance is still 14, I see little reason to choose a Rune blade or an Ice Brand over an equivalent spear. Ice Brand + 108 Gems is better than Oberisk, but then Holy Lances come into play and they get 108 gems and they're on top again.

And the only way to equip them is to either be a squire or lancer.  Who, btw, have inferior PA to the Knight class.  If any other classes chooses to equip a spear, to do so they must sacrifice a support slot.  Spears will not be going forced 2H.

QuoteThis makes me wonder if it'd be worth giving all classes innate Equip Change?

It's in line with the idea of this patch.  I'll think on if it can break the system and go from there.

QuoteAlso, can you fix Ramza/Delita to be able to equip Shields during Chapter 1 for the sake of consistency between Squires?

k


QuoteSwords given large weapon evade %, if possible make part of it apply to M-Ev.
Spears given a WP boost or Crossbows given a WP Nerf. Maybe 1 point of both.
Ninja Swords get status effects
Katanas have something unique, maybe like one has Always:Haste, and Initial: Death Sentence, or Always: Berserk and Regen

One thing to consider when discussing weapons is what classes they default to.  

Most the sword users in the game already has access to a shield (poor sage). Sword W.Ev is fine.  Wish I could somehow many weapon guard evade work with spells, too, but alas.  And, yes, the sword itself can get outclassed at the last 10% of the game, but squires have plenty of options, knights have knight swords, geomancers have axes, and sages will still probably stick with rune blade.  

Spears have +1 PA

Crossbows may warrant a WP nerf to retain doubleshot (which, btw, is a really cool thing and will be staying).

Ninja swords with status effects is a cool idea, but I'd really just prefer something with straight, high, predictable damage.  Daggers offer 100% accuracy at the expense of less damage and flails are rather random.

Similarly, I don't think the katana idea is feasible because it's the only thing samurai can equip.

QuoteNinja Swords do need something to compensate for Speed formula.

They already got a WP boost to compensate for the speed formula.

QuoteEither people need to read the OP or philsov needs to stop being a lazy fuck and update it.

The former :).  90%+ of the info is on there.

QuoteIs my previous suggestion of making all weapons work like accessories that modify PA, and making all weapons do damage as fists do, at all feasible? That way a sword would pretty much always do more damage than a spear, and it'd have a cool effect besides, like one sword has better evade, and one sword grants protect.

Wat.
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Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 19, 2009, 10:33:54 pm
Quote from: "philsov"It's in line with the idea of this patch.  I'll think on if it can break the system and go from there.

Even if you were to do the really large "Equip Melee" thing I suggested, I don't think it would.

You'd need to either be a Squire or give up your Support slot to really gain benefits from it, as well as a turn that the enemy will be using to set up on you while you're busy juggling your shit.

Only problem I can see is a few Items that come with Initial: X being used to lead the battle then unequipped on the first turn, but with how much longer it takes to get into the action in ASM'D your status won't be lasting long once you're in the fray unless it's Reraise.

Quote from: "philsov"Crossbows may warrant a WP nerf to retain doubleshot (which, btw, is a really cool thing and will be staying).

I want to test rather extensively with these / Guns before touching those, since I should have time now that all my finals are done.

The only way I could see Crossbows truly becoming a problem is if Guns are an even bigger problem, so lets see how Gun abuse fares and go from there.

I mostly just spam Bow Gun and Throw Stone anyway until about Thieve's Fort in 1.3 anyway, so that's less a problem with ASM'D and just something that works anyway.  >_>;

QuoteThey already got a WP boost to compensate for the speed formula.

O.

Works for me.

Quote from: "philsov"
Quote from: "woodenbandman"Is my previous suggestion of making all weapons work like accessories that modify PA, and making all weapons do damage as fists do, at all feasible? That way a sword would pretty much always do more damage than a spear, and it'd have a cool effect besides, like one sword has better evade, and one sword grants protect.

Wat.

Wat.

Quote from: "woodenbandman"For one unit. I generally prefer Concentrate, because if you have 4 units and they all attack one dude, that's 4 guaranteed hit, with attack up that's one 70% hit from the rear, and a few 50% hits from the sides.

My melee units for 1.3 were a Two Swords Thief, a Two Hands Lancer, a Two Hands female Oracle w/ Stick, and Ramza.

The Lancer had Jump, lots of Move, and a Spear to ensure he could get around most problems.  If percents were really low, just bounce off its head like a plumber.  If they were reasonable, get on the side and OHKO.

My Thief just ran in with reckless abandon and didn't afraid of anything.  Then sometimes became my Chemist halfway through.

The female Oracle had Setiemson / Salty Rage / Magic Gauntlet + plenty of HP and Damage Split / Auto Potion depending on what point in the game it was, so she could go toe to toe a lot and then Don't Act a bitch if outright oneshotting it was a problem.

Ramza was Ramza, usually I kept him as a Geomancer with Two Swords IIRC just to have some more range and overall power.

My last unit was female Draw Out Samurai with Summon / Item secondary, so obviously she didn't give a shit about evasion.

Hence, no Concentrate besides the Thief's use of it innate.
Title:
Post by: philsov on December 19, 2009, 11:13:27 pm
QuoteOnly problem I can see is a few Items that come with Initial: X being used to lead the battle then unequipped on the first turn, but with how much longer it takes to get into the action in ASM'D your status won't be lasting long once you're in the fray unless it's Reraise.

Exactly.  So long as there is an initial round of setup action, this means the entire player team can rock reraise from angel ring and then swap into another accessory.  Was a rather common tactic in Super Tact :).  Also I'm a bit concerned how much (if any) this will negate enemies with battle skill and steal.  And then there's stone gun...

Edit:  Yeah, innate equip change sounds good, but it's too easy to abuse sadly.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 20, 2009, 02:28:32 am
Quote from: "philsov"Exactly.  So long as there is an initial round of setup action, this means the entire player team can rock reraise from angel ring and then swap into another accessory.  Was a rather common tactic in Super Tact :).  Also I'm a bit concerned how much (if any) this will negate enemies with battle skill and steal.  And then there's stone gun...

Edit:  Yeah, innate equip change sounds good, but it's too easy to abuse sadly.[/quote]

Reraise seems to be the biggest problem to me.

Units with Steal / Battle Skill (in my experience) seem to prefer casting Confuse / Slow whenever possible, at which point you're screwed anyway.

Initial: Haste will wear off too quickly in ASM'D to matter, and I can't think of any other good Initial: X's that this would be worth doing with.

I'd try suggesting -Reraise from Angel Ring / Chantage like the mentally insane champ I am, but I honestly have no idea what I'd make those items do instead anyway.

Sucks.  :/

Hm.

Innate Equip Change on Squire at least?  Lol.

IDK.
Title:
Post by: Zaen on December 22, 2009, 11:30:52 am
Ok, having read the OP... Equip Change does seem a lot more useful now, with each dagger being actually useful, and so on.

I'd still say Equip Change on all, though. You know how horrible it is to have your armor/weapon broken/stolen, and no way to replace it. Thus, it brings us to the Angel ring/Chantage issue. Halve and absorb Dark? Cancel Holy? They have/seem to have divine intentions with the initial reraise and name(in Angel Ring's case), so protection from Dark, whether cancel or absorb?
Title:
Post by: philsov on December 22, 2009, 11:52:43 am
QuoteYou know how horrible it is to have your armor/weapon broken/stolen, and no way to replace it.

1) Its replacable after the battle, even rares.
2) It's replacable in battle, if you give up the support slot for it
3) I -like- people with broken stuff in battles.  Throw a few enemies knights at the party, have them break a few equipment pieces, and then the main enemy horde swoops in like vultures. I don't want that completely negated, for free, especially when the enemy will never do the same.
4) I like items with start:reraise on them, and would rather have those than everyone having innate equip change.
Title:
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 22, 2009, 08:59:02 pm
Streaming ASM'D and Metal Gear Solid in a currently unknown order, will hopefully be streaming most of the night. (http://www.justin.tv/ravenofrazgriz/old)
Title:
Post by: Blank on December 23, 2009, 02:54:19 pm
This project seems really great. A lot of the changes feel like its definitely building up to be a different experience.

One thing I was wondering, is it possible to combine Move+ with other movement skills? That way, maybe change all the movement to 1 or 2, give squires free move+2, along with most/all movement skills giving innate move+2 and Thieves getting Move+3/4? The whole purpose being to add in a teleport that works off only 1 or 2 move, though it could be upped by accessories of course. If you're still keen on keeping teleport in any shape or form at least.

Also, I personally wish Magic Guns still ran on MA(Maybe with a different formula) and regular guns were made useful in their own way. I wasn't here for the discussion on that though and don't know the reason for the change.
Title:
Post by: philsov on December 24, 2009, 05:23:56 pm
Can't modify the move abilities, sadly.

But, uh, magic guns never were ma-based.
Title:
Post by: Blank on December 24, 2009, 09:13:12 pm
Ah thats a shame to hear. I probably should've expected it otherwise you guys would have already been modifying teleport itself.

And my bad on the MA-based guns thing, I guess I was misinformed.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: philsov on January 02, 2010, 08:24:49 pm
Hoo ok.  Making slow but present progress with this storyline business.   But I'm off on vacation to Keyna for the next two weeks in a day or two.  So best of luck to the beta testing Raven, and if anyone else has comments/questions/offerings of assistance for scenes/etc I'll get to them once I'm back and settled :)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: Asmo X on January 03, 2010, 10:11:40 pm
Movement abilities work just fine in the support slot. I dont know how they combine with other movement skills if you try to do this though
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: Dokurider on January 05, 2010, 05:44:38 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Hoo ok.  Making slow but present progress with this storyline business.   But I'm off on vacation to Keyna for the next two weeks in a day or two.  So best of luck to the beta testing Raven, and if anyone else has comments/questions/offerings of assistance for scenes/etc I'll get to them once I'm back and settled :)

Kenya? Are you a secret agent or something?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: philsov on January 17, 2010, 04:03:25 am
Nah, that was just a family vacation and belated christmas.  It was AWESOME though, saw all different kinds of kickass wildlife.  Oh, and then there was a small riot in Nairobi as we were leaving.  Either way, good times, I'll post some pics up later.  

But!  Back to work!  /flex
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: philsov on January 20, 2010, 02:36:03 pm
Ooooh... here's a thought.

Toggle most (keeping a handful) of the assassination fights to a "defeat all enemies" for less well-calculated sniping and more all out party bouts.  sounds good, maybe?  

And then give all the supporting enemy characters item secondary.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! LF graphical help
Post by: Dokurider on January 20, 2010, 06:26:02 pm
I would like that immensely. I always felt that assassinations battles were unsatisfying.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 11, 2010, 01:05:45 am
How's it going Phil?

Just wanted to ask if you still need testing and if you changed something after Raven's tests. I'm back at home and if you want to give this a little update and want me to test it I can do it now. I'll try to read through the new comments later =P
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 11, 2010, 09:34:31 am
woot!

Yes, I've updated the patcher to include Raven's notes so far and cleaned up a few other things that I saw.  Dunno where Raven's flown off to; he couldn't get the get the text edits to work and I left for vacation and haven't seen him back since =\.

But again this means most of the mechanical progress is done; I'm still slowly but surely working on all the events which is working out to be far more time consuming than originally planned.  I'll hook you up with updated information in a day or two :)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 11, 2010, 10:23:06 am
Quote from: "philsov"woot!

Yes, I've updated the patcher to include Raven's notes so far and cleaned up a few other things that I saw.  Dunno where Raven's flown off to; he couldn't get the get the text edits to work and I left for vacation and haven't seen him back since =\.

But again this means most of the mechanical progress is done; I'm still slowly but surely working on all the events which is working out to be far more time consuming than originally planned.  I'll hook you up with updated information in a day or two :)

It seems real life takes time =P
Cool ^^ I'll be waiting for it. Don't need to rush though, I don't think I'll be leaving again for a good couple of months.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: SilvasRuin on February 11, 2010, 12:50:52 pm
The talk of Chocobos and their usefulness in 1.3 got me thinking.  What do you think about making Chocobos moderately powerful at best and then making them the farthest moving monsters/characters in the game as their strength?  With the stronger emphasis on positioning, this will wind up making mounting them much more appealing.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 11, 2010, 01:18:16 pm
that was actually planned already :more: hybrids.  Blue mage?  Red mage?  Mystic knight?  Other?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: SilvasRuin on February 11, 2010, 01:37:56 pm
If you've got more elemental weaknesses across the board, then a Mystic Knight would give melee units the ability to take advantage of that instead of leaving it all to the mages.  The Sword Skill animations could easily fit into elemental themes.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on February 11, 2010, 03:35:55 pm
How about something along the lines of instant damage magic? Fire0, Ice0, Bolt0, Demi0. Single target, CT0, deals low to moderate damage, and in Demi0 case, 25% damage.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 11, 2010, 04:12:41 pm
oooh, that sounds like goodness.  Perhaps they'll adopt the MA*Y formula as well (ie, faithless).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on February 11, 2010, 05:26:52 pm
Cure0 as well while I'm on a roll.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 11, 2010, 06:49:34 pm
Personally, I'm all in for a Blue Mage because I think that'd be the most unique class, but I know blue mages need more planning. Take Quina for example: you could easily learn all his/her spells as long as you used her throughout the game constantly. Every now and then new enemies with more powerful/useful abilities appeared, and that made Quina very versatile. In fact, Blue mages may be too useful =p

Hey! Maybe you can add a white chocobo (I'm sure we have palettes for that) and make it the Rideable chocobo.. so that you don't have to completely nullify one of the current ones we have..
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 13, 2010, 07:12:58 pm
As for choco nullification, there's spare palettes, but there's just no spare monster slots.  I'll prolly dick over the black choco, but hopefully do some palette swapping all the same.  

But, hm.  Think I'll go with a blue mage.  There isn't that much elemental weakness to exploit in the realms of the mystic knight, and the insta-magics, while an awesome idea, will instead be rolled into the parent classes and take the place of other abilities (goodbye level 4s!). I don't think I'll be able to spread out the blue magic abilities quite like Quina, lest I prevent many monster families from cropping up too early, but the skillset won't be able to completed until chapter 3 probably.

Balance is going to be tricky matter -- I want the skillset to be good, but not steal every iconic monster ability then trump them all by being able to do it all at the same time -- so very likely the blue mage's choco meteor (e.g.) will never be stronger than a real choco's.  Coeffecients and monster PA/MA will need to be adjusted, but that's a minor matter in the scheme of things.  I think I've worked out the spellbook too :)

*runs off to fftpatcher*
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 13, 2010, 09:42:11 pm
Great to hear Phil :D Blue Mages are one of my fave classes.

I have a question about their learning process though; how do we learn the skills?
Either:
a) Spend JP to learn, like any other job.
b) Get hit with the corresponding ability.
c) Spend JP OR get hit with ability. This means any will suffice. IE: I can either learn goblin punch if a Goblin uses it on my Blue Mage or spend 200 JP to learn it.
d) Both spend JP AND get hit by ability. This means that, to learn Goblin punch I have to meet both requirements.

---
OFF-TOPIC PS: wft am I doing wrong with my sig's url? Or are urls forbidden in sigs now?
---
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 13, 2010, 11:29:16 pm
B.  Certainly don't wish A or C, and I don't know how to rig up D.

12 of the blue magic abilities will come from monsters with a decent spread from all the monster families.  2 to 4 will come from various bosses.

Suggestions on unlock requirements?  Thinking having mediator as a parent class seems a bit excessive, and the old calc/sage requirements don't really seem to fit here.  

As for your sig, we upgraded forum format so a few things became pure text in the transition.  Just "change" your sig and it should be back to goodness.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on February 14, 2010, 12:11:53 am
Level 6 Squire, Level 6 Chemist, akin to the Onion Knight?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on February 14, 2010, 12:16:24 am
I'd rather keep the class requirements vaguely about nature and monsters.  If blue mage is to replace calculator, I'd make the requirements level 4 mediator and geomancer (since he is a hybrid: mage + physical fighter).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 14, 2010, 03:53:15 am
Blue Mages are a class you'll want early on, because you have to travel the world map in search for monsters in order to learn abilities..

How about lvl4 Wizard, lvl4 Priest and lvl3 Geomancer? Some leveling in the 1st 2 mage jobs available, and then a little more with an advanced, physical-magical hybrid job. Playing normally (no grinding) it'd take around beginning of CH2 to unlock I guess. Not too early (as the class is a very useful one), and not too late.. (so that you can learn abilities as you play instead of having to travel through the whole map at once to find monster variety.)

EDIT: My post came out in some horrible English so I edited it  :?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 16, 2010, 02:36:48 am
This is my first time reading this post. This looks like one heck of a killer patch Philsov! I was going to give 1.3 easytype a run but it looks like I might have to wait for this.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 16, 2010, 01:02:14 pm
QuoteI was going to give 1.3 easytype a run but it looks like I might have to wait for this

Eh heh.  Don't hold your horses.  The more and more I play around with the data the most interested I am in this being less of a 1.3 piggyback and more of a stand alone game thats loosely based on vanilla -- so I'll be ditching a majority of the 1.3 iconic changes -- crit quick queklain, doubleshot x-bows, etc -- and inserting my own little twists everywhere.  A very evil part of me will steal the mercenary job classes/system should it become available.  

As for the blue mage... in FFTA the unlocks were White Mage and Black mage, so I'll probably hold onto that... but geomancer seems a bit far down.  Maybe combination knight/archer/wizard/priest?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 16, 2010, 02:38:07 pm
I'm all in for new changes... but you better come up with something great for x-bows, 'cause I loved doubleshot =P
Can x-bows have innate Secret Hunt? Is that even possible, or remotely useful/interesting?

Lvl 4 Priest and lvl 4 Wizard sounds about right to me. If you want to go Priest, Wizard, Archer and Knight, then it's lvl3 of each.. but it may be too much and also Archer is totally unrelated to a Blue Mage.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 16, 2010, 06:12:10 pm
Just wanna say I am a huge fan of Quina in FF9. Bad breath is hella amazing and I think it would work well in here too. But...personally I am slightly against the Blue Mage being a standard class. I rather have one special Blue Mage character having a set of powerful monster abilities than having many Blue Mages with subpar monster abilities.

In all honestly, as much as I loved 1.3, some of the stuff just doesn't feel right. What I truly wanted was an extension to FFT, with balance changes, and a difficulty increase. 1.3 made quite many fights dependent on luck, and I always hated stuff like item breaking. I am in for making a actual BETTER FFT than the original, by BETTER not meaning to only raise the difficulty and changing some balance tweaks (Not saying that 1.3 isn't better, it's awesome, it's just it isn't FFT like it was FFT intended by Square). By better I mean as a better game from itself, a better playing experience for majority of players (not just limited to hardcore players).

From a glance I am already liking most if not all of the changes you proposed to make to the game mechanics. So that's good sign. Though you might not want to add too many new things until you get the basic stuff done I'll say. The story battles should be fairly easy to edit through. You can forget about the text changes and stuff like that for now. Prioritize and get out a public beta whenever you feel ready. I am sure many people will be interested.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on February 16, 2010, 10:18:59 pm
Easytype?

Seriously, 1.3 IS a Better FFT. Than the original. The thing is, gaming has gotten WAY TOO EASY. Ever since the transition to 3D, and even a little before that, games basically catered to the casual gamer.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 12:36:04 am
Quote from: "Zaen"Easytype?

Seriously, 1.3 IS a Better FFT. Than the original. The thing is, gaming has gotten WAY TOO EASY. Ever since the transition to 3D, and even a little before that, games basically catered to the casual gamer.

For me (and probably most of us in these forums), it's better than the original. But it's not better by the casual gamer's standards (or, Squarenix's). Not denying that FFT 1.3 isn't more fun, it is a hell lot of fun and has much more offer than the original FFT. What I am hoping for is something just as deep as 1.3 (if not deeper), but a slightly more relaxed, more playable, and less resetting FFT. I believe it is achievable.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zenius on February 17, 2010, 02:59:35 am
More playable?
1.3 is VERY playable once you're used to it
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 03:10:16 am
Quote from: "Zenius"More playable?
1.3 is VERY playable once you're used to it

It is very playable indeed. I never said it wasn't playable :) If by more playable can mean players can be slightly more relaxed, and if the player can choose to fight some assassination fights without having to resort to total rush strategies, it'll make things a little better. I am pretty sure you know what I am talking about. I am not having trouble with the patch, but at the same time it isn't something I would recommend all of my friends to go play.

How to put it? If I were to play FFT 1.3 again, I think I would have prefer some battles to be slightly different (not necessarily easier, just different. I love majority of the battles in the patch, I just hoped that all of them were like that). Also, easing the difficulty can mean things like giving more JP per action to reduce some JP spill grinding.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 17, 2010, 10:28:50 am
You're all taking it on him, poor R999, but you know what he means. It's the exact point of view that leaded to 1.3 Easytype and now to this patch. We are already going that way R999, no need to discuss further.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on February 17, 2010, 12:46:19 pm
QuoteIn all honestly, as much as I loved 1.3, some of the stuff just doesn't feel right... 1.3 made quite many fights dependent on luck, and I always hated stuff like item breaking.

There's no easy way to balance these sorts of things out.  If you can do everything you need to do, without the rng (elemental/weapon/status procs, talk skill, status magic/effects, etc), then what's the purpose of any of those skills?  Why settle for a 54% chance to mimic daravon someone when you can 100% wtfpwn them?  Under 1.3's difficulty scheme, the "random" skills finally have a place because they present an actual reward for the risk.  Are the "random" skills necessary to beat fights in 1.3?  Honestly, no, that's all in your head.  But that's neither here nor there, this is ASM'd.  

QuoteWe are already going that way R999, no need to discuss further.

^^
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 05:02:17 pm
Quote from: "philsov"There's no easy way to balance these sorts of things out.  If you can do everything you need to do, without the rng (elemental/weapon/status procs, talk skill, status magic/effects, etc), then what's the purpose of any of those skills?  Why settle for a 54% chance to mimic daravon someone when you can 100% wtfpwn them?  Under 1.3's difficulty scheme, the "random" skills finally have a place because they present an actual reward for the risk.  Are the "random" skills necessary to beat fights in 1.3?  Honestly, no, that's all in your head.  But that's neither here nor there, this is ASM'd.  

It depends on the context. One example that I can give is for the fight inside Murond Temple, where if your first or second steal attempts fails, then what?. Ideally I would want to take the time to disable them properly and steal off his Chaos Blade, the furthest that i was able to do was burning out all 3 of their mana, and getting one of them to critical status. Even doing that requires a fair bit of luck, for some of their hits to miss.  But I agree that there's no easy way to balance these things out. You are absolutely right about those low success skills being very rewarding. I like to break stats of bosses, for example, and usually the success rates are fairly low. Is it necessary to use those skills to win? No.

But is it necessary to use a full speed rush on the top of Riovanes, making sure every hit actually hits? Yes. Is it possible to win the Genji equipments if Celia and Lede were to never get in for Hamedo to proc? It's very hard. Not impossible but there will be a lot of resets. They are hard to balance out I completely understand that. Hence forth I was never complaining.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 17, 2010, 06:16:51 pm
R999, take into account that optional stuff doesn't necessarily have to be medium/hard difficulty. You don't need Genji equipment or Chaos Blade to beat the game; therefore, to get those items it seems kinda obvious that you're gonna have to get past something more challenging that just winning the fight normally.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 08:42:14 pm
@Sephirot24, those just happen to be a few battles where there were some rare equipment (although, very desirable to the point where I'd assume that it was intended for players to take the stealing challenge). We can neglect some of these battles, even the one on Rooftop Riovanes.

Consider the last Wiegraf battle where he has the ability to 1 hit KO you, or 1 hit Death Sentence (basically same thing) you? Was it intended for the player to wear a Judo outfit (prevent KO, and obviously, no access to Angel Rings at that point of the game, either that or one or the other)? As far as I could remember it, I was only able to nab two of these equipments during my playthrough up to that point. What if I had forgotten to steal these equipments then what? The Wiegraf battle would have become nothing more than playing with a slot machine. Yes, you are going to tell me that I don't need the Judo outfit to win this fight. Possibly indeed, that is exactly what I did -- I won that fight with a setup that favors fighting Velius instead. Knowingly, I resetted over 15 times just so I don't get one shotted by Wiegraf. So this is definitely possible, but should such a fight be designed like so? If the developers really intended the fight to require Ramza wearing anti-KO armor (which cannot be bought in shops until you are much higher levelled than you are suppose to), why not actually make Wiegraf's Crush Punch inflict at 100% KO instead of this slot machine bullshit?  Surely, I am positive that there must be better ways to design such a challenge, one that becomes equally (if not more) rewarding while not being so luck reliant on the player's side. Less frustration, less resets gives a better enjoyable gaming experience. That's my opinion. You are free to disagree, of course.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Samuraiblackbelt on February 17, 2010, 08:51:09 pm
it forces you to get creative.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on February 17, 2010, 09:05:59 pm
IIRC Judo outfit (and Chameleon Robe?) are purchasable before entering Riovanes.

Besides I'm sure there's a lot of different strategies like Tanking (the one I did), evading with Abandon + Mantle + Shield, Speed save abuse, stat breaks? ... etc etc

Don't turn this into a 1.3 discussion.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on February 17, 2010, 10:12:24 pm
Quote from: "R999"@Sephirot24, those just happen to be a few battles where there were some rare equipment (although, very desirable to the point where I'd assume that it was intended for players to take the stealing challenge). We can neglect some of these battles, even the one on Rooftop Riovanes.

Consider the last Wiegraf battle where he has the ability to 1 hit KO you, or 1 hit Death Sentence (basically same thing) you? Was it intended for the player to wear a Judo outfit (prevent KO, and obviously, no access to Angel Rings at that point of the game, either that or one or the other)? As far as I could remember it, I was only able to nab two of these equipments during my playthrough up to that point. What if I had forgotten to steal these equipments then what? The Wiegraf battle would have become nothing more than playing with a slot machine. Yes, you are going to tell me that I don't need the Judo outfit to win this fight. Possibly indeed, that is exactly what I did -- I won that fight with a setup that favors fighting Velius instead. Knowingly, I resetted over 15 times just so I don't get one shotted by Wiegraf. So this is definitely possible, but should such a fight be designed like so? If the developers really intended the fight to require Ramza wearing anti-KO armor (which cannot be bought in shops until you are much higher levelled than you are suppose to), why not actually make Wiegraf's Crush Punch inflict at 100% KO instead of this slot machine bullshit?  Surely, I am positive that there must be better ways to design such a challenge, one that becomes equally (if not more) rewarding while not being so luck reliant on the player's side. Less frustration, less resets gives a better enjoyable gaming experience. That's my opinion. You are free to disagree, of course.

You forget that Wiegraf's swordskills are evadable. You don't need to prevent OHKO if he can't even hit you to begin with. And the times that it does, it's only a 25% chance. Hardly what I consider a "slot machine". When I fought Wiegraf, I was pimping Elf Mantle and Light Robe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk3A0qsMI0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk3A0qsMI0)

(Part 2 in case you care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Qqu6N8DmI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Qqu6N8DmI))

Suddenly, this battle is strongly in my favor. I get to just sit around and accumulate until I can nearly one-shot him, and there is little Wiegraf can do about it. I ended up being so strong, I one-shotted Velius' demon buddies with SPIN FIST. I only had to reset once for this fight. Not what I would call a frustrating experience.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 10:26:38 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"You forget that Wiegraf's swordskills are evadable. You don't need to prevent OHKO if he can't even hit you to begin with. And the times that it does, it's only a 25% chance. Hardly what I consider a "slot machine". When I fought Wiegraf, I was pimping Elf Mantle and Light Robe.

Consider yourself lucky, I had the exact same setup (with Elf Mantle and Abandon) before switching over to Damage Split (needed it to survive Velius). I have already stated my opinion. The part where you say "25% is hardly a slot machine" I disagree. Because (imo) it is (I have been killed in the first turn (with Elf Mantle + Abandon), which is much less frustrating than getting killed in the 8th turn). Whether or not that is intentional, you decide. What really amuses me is how the second part of the fight (Velius) is so much more fun and easier (now is that intentional too?) because I don't get one shotted.

edit: Wanted to add 2 things.
1) I haven't tried using Accumulate here. That's one epic way to own Wiegraf! (thanks Dokurider)
2) I can't remember what items were in the shops at my level, they didn't have immune to KO. I only found out about the Judo clothes later on.

I promise myself to not talk about 1.3 here anymore. Thanks for your responses.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on February 17, 2010, 10:51:51 pm
QuoteThe part where you say "25% is hardly a slot machine" I disagree. Because it is

Well you're wrong. Because I said so.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on February 17, 2010, 10:59:07 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"
QuoteThe part where you say "25% is hardly a slot machine" I disagree. Because it is
Well you're wrong. Because I said so.

Okay then. I guess people's opinions can be incorrect in this forum...  :shock:
What would you do, if you were say, fighting someone in another game where the enemy has a way to instant kill you, no matter what, but it is a 10% probability?

Just some probability talk here... 25% chance to strike instant kill is pretty high.
Chance for the proc to not happen tin 10 turns is, 0.75^10 = 56%. Chance for proc to not happen in 20 turns is 31%.
With 50% evade you get hit half the time, assuming he does 0 damage, then there's at least a 15%-16% chance for you to die instantly (reset) in the first 20 turns. But it doesn't really matter because, no matter how far you have come to, you still die instantly if luck isn't on your side. I am not saying that this particular battle should change for 1.3. No. Just I, on a personal level, prefer it to be different.


Now let's talk about ASM'D!
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zenius on February 18, 2010, 04:51:33 am
I can't wait for this to be completed o.O
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Gotwald on February 18, 2010, 03:36:17 pm
This game favors the defensive player? I can't wait!
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Smitson on February 20, 2010, 11:53:41 pm
Quote from: "R999"@Sephirot24, those just happen to be a few battles where there were some rare equipment (although, very desirable to the point where I'd assume that it was intended for players to take the stealing challenge). We can neglect some of these battles, even the one on Rooftop Riovanes.

Consider the last Wiegraf battle where he has the ability to 1 hit KO you, or 1 hit Death Sentence (basically same thing) you? Was it intended for the player to wear a Judo outfit (prevent KO, and obviously, no access to Angel Rings at that point of the game, either that or one or the other)? As far as I could remember it, I was only able to nab two of these equipments during my playthrough up to that point. What if I had forgotten to steal these equipments then what? The Wiegraf battle would have become nothing more than playing with a slot machine. Yes, you are going to tell me that I don't need the Judo outfit to win this fight. Possibly indeed, that is exactly what I did -- I won that fight with a setup that favors fighting Velius instead. Knowingly, I resetted over 15 times just so I don't get one shotted by Wiegraf. So this is definitely possible, but should such a fight be designed like so? If the developers really intended the fight to require Ramza wearing anti-KO armor (which cannot be bought in shops until you are much higher levelled than you are suppose to), why not actually make Wiegraf's Crush Punch inflict at 100% KO instead of this slot machine bullshit?  Surely, I am positive that there must be better ways to design such a challenge, one that becomes equally (if not more) rewarding while not being so luck reliant on the player's side. Less frustration, less resets gives a better enjoyable gaming experience. That's my opinion. You are free to disagree, of course.

Hey let me sum this up. You suck balls at FFT. That is all.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Smitson on February 20, 2010, 11:53:43 pm
Quote from: "R999"@Sephirot24, those just happen to be a few battles where there were some rare equipment (although, very desirable to the point where I'd assume that it was intended for players to take the stealing challenge). We can neglect some of these battles, even the one on Rooftop Riovanes.

Consider the last Wiegraf battle where he has the ability to 1 hit KO you, or 1 hit Death Sentence (basically same thing) you? Was it intended for the player to wear a Judo outfit (prevent KO, and obviously, no access to Angel Rings at that point of the game, either that or one or the other)? As far as I could remember it, I was only able to nab two of these equipments during my playthrough up to that point. What if I had forgotten to steal these equipments then what? The Wiegraf battle would have become nothing more than playing with a slot machine. Yes, you are going to tell me that I don't need the Judo outfit to win this fight. Possibly indeed, that is exactly what I did -- I won that fight with a setup that favors fighting Velius instead. Knowingly, I resetted over 15 times just so I don't get one shotted by Wiegraf. So this is definitely possible, but should such a fight be designed like so? If the developers really intended the fight to require Ramza wearing anti-KO armor (which cannot be bought in shops until you are much higher levelled than you are suppose to), why not actually make Wiegraf's Crush Punch inflict at 100% KO instead of this slot machine bullshit?  Surely, I am positive that there must be better ways to design such a challenge, one that becomes equally (if not more) rewarding while not being so luck reliant on the player's side. Less frustration, less resets gives a better enjoyable gaming experience. That's my opinion. You are free to disagree, of course.

Hey let me sum this up. You suck balls at FFT. That is all.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: boomkick on February 22, 2010, 01:03:02 am
Play vanilla if you want FFT to hold your hand.

The people on these forums (people who actually participate and love 1.3) are people who are tired of vanilla and it's "easy way out" tactics. RNG doesnt always go against you and u can use it too, if your lucky.

Less resets dont give a more enjoyable experience, it reduces the rewarding aspect of you beating a battle with odds stacked against you. More resets (or the harder the battle), the more rewarding after your strategy beat them.

And FYI, this is very based on the player. You always have one advantage that the opponent can never have: human brain processes and analytical thought.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: SilvasRuin on February 22, 2010, 03:47:49 am
QuoteLess resets dont give a more enjoyable experience, it reduces the rewarding aspect of you beating a battle with odds stacked against you. More resets (or the harder the battle), the more rewarding after your strategy beat them.
Last Remnant's Gates of Hell.  x_x  I was so ecstatic when I won.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 01, 2010, 01:23:12 pm
mmmk... did a little touch up work on the zodiac boss fights.  They all sport a primary and secondary reaction, complete with finger guard for no Br reduction funsies -- ranging from Abandon + caution (+ mantle) to damage split to MP Switch/Move MP Up combination, so those fights will certainly have a flavor to them.    Still slowly working on the ENTD (more on setup than placement for the time being).

Also constructed a new job tree.  Squire, Knight, Archer, Priest, and Wizard are all immediately available, and the circular/composite wheel makes the higher-teired job classes less so.  But each unlock has more than one unlocking requirement, so for some classes theres no big change (thief needs both archer and squire, for example), while others go through a minor paradigm shift.

[attachment=0:hg3ds5p3]asm_tree.PNG[/attachment:hg3ds5p3]
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 01, 2010, 05:45:47 pm
Where's Mime?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 01, 2010, 10:10:55 pm
That's confusing... also, what's up with BM (Black mage?) and Wizard both being on there? Or is that something else...?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: AeroGP on March 02, 2010, 12:59:36 am
To answer both of your questions: I'm assuming Mime was kicked since it doesn't fit in well with the branching job tree philsov's developed, and Sage was replaced with Blue Mage.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 02, 2010, 01:04:54 am
Mime is a composite from all the tertiary jobs.  I could do a loop-around square, but eh.

And BM is blue mage.  New class~
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on March 02, 2010, 12:29:50 pm
It seems a little confusing :D

So, to sum it up:

BASIC JOBS: Chemist, Squire, Knight, Archer, Priest, Wizard.

SECONDARY JOBS:
Monk: Chemist + Knight
Lancer: Knight + Archer
Thief: Archer + Squire
Blue Mage (yaaaaay!): Squire + Wizard
Oracle: Priest + Wizard
Mediator: Chemist + Priest
Geomancer: Knight + Wizard

TERTIARY JOBS::
Samurai: Monk + Lancer
Ninja: Thief + Lancer
Dancer: Geomancer + Lancer
Time Mage: Mediator + Oracle
Summoner: Oracle + Blue Mage
Bard: Geomancer + Oracle

Only thing that's left to know are the lvl requirements. I hope they are not too high as I hate grinding as much as you do Phil :P
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 02, 2010, 01:24:07 pm
good summary.

Secondaries will be needing job level 3 in their parent classes.  Tertiary will need jlvl 4.  Mime will need jlvl 1 from Ninja, Samurai, Summoner, and TM (ie, 4 on all secondaries, nevermind my previous comment.)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 02, 2010, 07:08:43 pm
Ah, ok. I got confused, because I noticed the Sa, and I instantly thought Sage, in turn forgetting Samurai. That makes a lot more sense. That's an awesome job tr...bush? Shrub? Ficus? Either way, it's pretty cool. Personally, I like the 3 branch tree that Skip made, and I use it modified to preference... I'll definitely make priority for this when it's done.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 03, 2010, 06:09:17 pm
I had a really off color idea for summons. What if Summons just did a set amount of damage? Ifrit/Shiva/Ramuh did 180, Titan did 220 and so on. Moddable by faith? I'm still on the fence about that
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Skip Sandwich on March 03, 2010, 09:45:35 pm
I don't think there are any formulas that deal set damage other then the gun formula and the potion formula (which heals), and though I suppose that the summon magic damage formula has more then enough room to e changed into F(X * Y), that would also change the damage formula for every other offensive spell, so it wouldn't really work.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 05, 2010, 09:55:11 pm
QuoteWhat if Summons just did a set amount of damage?

Absurd early on and then tapers off.  The same problem is with the vanilla repeating first and dragon dash.  At least potions and guns got new ranks throughout the game, but its hard/nigh-impossible to rig that up with abilities.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 06, 2010, 02:21:32 pm
So, I'm sort of back.  Sorry for flying the coop, RL happened and is still sort-of happening.  

Last time I played I was testing out Dorter Trade City (I don't think I posted my experience there).  Long story short, they had Long Bows that were doing around 50 damage and wrecked me by default.  Hopefully this (and the Red Panther / Fist / etc) problems have been fixed, as I'm sure they're all stemming from the same thing (in respect to Br / similar values, most likely).

I like how this is shaping up though.  The new Job Wheel... err... Job Decagon looks pimp.  Odd question, though, are Bard / Dancer still gender-specific?  It could be kind of cool to have both jobs open to both genders, but I'm guessing that lack of sprites to accommodate that would be a giant hurdle for non-Special characters.

Are there any other updates I missed?  I'd still like to give this game a full video run-through when its finished up, as I've been looking for some more ridiculously hacked games to video run through as my time begins freeing up.  I'm thinking I might satiate myself with Advance Wars 1/2, but the number of mods for that are pretty limited, surprisingly...

EDIT -

Thoughts on some of the stuff proposed so far:

Turning most of the assassination battles into Defeat All Enemies battles seems like a great idea.  Some of the exceptions would obviously be most Zodiac battles, and also could include most of the Elmdor series of assassination battles, excluding maybe Outside Limberry Castle if you can rig it to have both Assassins run when one goes critical but have the Byblos stay and finish the fight.  There might be a couple others where exceptions might work, but a lot of others (both Miluda battles, Wiegraf battles, etc) all seem like they should be Defeat All Enemies, since even if the leader goes down, the others all hate your guts enough to still want to spill them all over the floor. That, and less assassination missions means less spots the game can be cheesed - definitely an improvement, since it means the difficulty can be kept steady without having to resort to some of the more ridiculous scenarios 1.3 went with.

Blue Mage seems fine to go over Sage.  I never used Sage or its primary skillset much, honestly, so I can't say I'll miss it.   As for some abilities that require you to take a hit from a boss to learn, I do hope by "boss" you mean something like an Arch Demon or Byblos or something that can be put into an end-game encounter in case the opportunity was missed and not on solely on something like a Zodiac monster.  That'd suck.  It's the reason I hate Zodiac as a Summon and love the Ultima Demon encounter 1.3 put in Finath River - abilities you only get one chance per game to learn on all of maybe 1 character unless you royally bust your balls don't have a place in a game like Final Fantasy Tactics, personally, considering you have 16 rotating and potentially changing party members and not just one or maybe two guys who can learn it unlike most other RPGs.  What I think would be cool, though, is to have every Zodiac monster have a higher-end monster skill that a Blue Mage can learn, and give the player the ability to learn the attack early by bringing a Blue Mage to that fight.  Then, in Chapter 3-4, have the monster sporting that ability begin to pop up in late random encounters once the player's had time to play around with their hard-earned toy.  That seems like a cool way to handle Blue Mage's 'rarer' abilities.  Too bad there's no plausible way to make Zodiac learnable end-game Chapter 4 outside of the Deep Dungeon, but then again... it's Zodiac, the ridiculous apocalypse Summon, and any way to get it outside Deep Dungeon would become the primary way to get it anyway.   Hmm... maybe have an encounter on the final Deep Dungeon floor after you beat Elidibs where an enemy can use Zodiac, and make the fight roughly as tough (maybe even tougher?) for Summoners to survive in as Elidibs so the player's still forced to work like hell for it.

IDK, I just hate "unique" abilities you're only given one chance to learn in terms of FFT.  This isn't a basic FF game where you have 8-12 characters who all have 1 job, and 1 of them can learn a couple extra abilities from certain bosses... this is 16 characters rotating between 21 jobs at any given time, with dynamic stat growths.  Truly "Unique" moves seem to have no place here.

Anywho, ranting, on to...

Crossbows!  Small WP boosts to compensate for no double-shot, and 100% statuses seems like it could be really cool.  Either that, or maybe make them Two Swords enabled so everyone can be like the Assassins in 1.3 *shrug*

Job Decagon seems cool, but each secondary job requiring two primary ones means it takes a deal of time to begin unlocking things.  Kinda depressing, but 6 jobs at start up seems like its fair enough compensation.  Does this mean the starting units in Magic City Gariland will each be in a different job?  There's 6 IIRC, so making 1 Squire 1 Chemist 1 Priest 1 Wizard 1 Knight 1 Archer instead of the 4 Squire 2 Chemist thing you start with would be really cool.

I think that covers most of what I missed.  Question: can we buff Mustadio a bit?  I remember him being rather useless once the other Special Characters begin showing up, even in 1.3.  Is it possible to give him something like inherent Attack Up / Magic Attack Up in his Engineer class so the "set" damage from Guns is useful for longer, and maybe tweak his PA / MA multipliers down some so that his net damage with non-Gun weapons pans out to be about the same.  Expanding his skill set would also be cool, since even with the old Knight skills Mustadio's skillset only does so much before inflicting raw damage or healing your own units becomes better than using them... especially since "boss" units are often immune to a majority of his skill set anyway.  I'd say dual wield guns akin to Crossbows, but that just seems silly.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 07, 2010, 10:41:41 pm
More random thoughts, that I'm quickly posting before I forget.

Zodiac Monsters -   Can you stack 3 Reaction Abilities on top of each other with a passive one in front?  If so, I'd rename Weapon Guard "???????" and give it to all Zodiac Monsters as their front ability in order to hide what their actual Reactions are.  It's not like the player will be using it, anyway, and Zodiac Monsters use no Weapons so it doesn't change how those fights will go down from your initial intent.

As for learning Blue Mage skills from Zodiac Bosses, I notice the OP has your current Blue Mage skillset outlook now that I bothered to check it for updates.  I noticed you left out Zalera and Elidibs, though, which is mildly saddening.  It'd be cool if every Zodiac Monster (except maybe Hashmalum) gave Blue Magic out, or at least Zalera did.  Bringing a team of nothing but Blue Mages and Summoners into Elidibs to learn Midgar Swarm and Zodiac at the same time seems like a hilarious concept.  Regardless, possibly a Bio spell from Queklain?  I'd say Seal from Velius, with some modifications.  Nothing distinct pops up for either Zalera or Aldramelk, though.  :) ), I'd just like to know if there's an exact reason for it that I'm not seeing / have forgotten, or if it was just so the class doesn't have too many ridiculous innates and becomes "too good" via doing a crapton of stuff.  Then again, it's a Mime, so...

Mantles!   I don't remember exactly what you said you were going to do with them besides lower their Evasion rates, but I was thinking that they should probably never break 15% Physical Evasion (due to innate Weapon Guard and global C-EV), but have more powerful beneficial effects in the vein of Wizard Mantle's +1 MA.  I honestly use Wizard Mantle for a long time after I get it (at least until I got Red Shoes off Alma or a Magic Gauntlet, minimum, and I could see myself using it for a very long time in ASM'D), so decent EV + a basic boost should generally result in an accessory that has utility for most of the game.  Unless you've a better idea - I'm just trying to think of ways to ensure stupid-high Evasion dudes can't become the things we're familiar with, since even with the -5% on a lot of mid-game and later Shields the free Weapon Guard percents will still leave you ahead and give you a nice baseline evasion from front and sides that normally wouldn't exist, especially with Global C-EV factored in.  I think that's my main worry, honestly - the side evasion numbers, since Weapon Guard, Global C-EV, and Shields already stack up high and make the otherwise high emphasis this game wants to place on positioning fall out.  Then again, you can probably just fix all these problems without needing to touch numbers at all by making all -EV stats "Global" in the manner C-EV is (100/50/50/25), though I think I've already suggested that before... and I get the odd feeling the main reason it didn't happen involved not having the ASM to do it, though my memory of our previous discussion on it is shaky at best.

The introduction of Blue Mages leaves me with another question though, now - what will you do with the Planar Magic skillset from 1.3?  It seems like a bit of a shame to lose player access to those Spells entirely, but there's obviously no room for them in the Wizard's or Blue Mage's spell books.  I'd like to see those skills incorporated into the game somehow, myself, especially since the lowered Speed values actually makes many of them worth using.  Thoughts?

I may have asked this before, but with Speed / Movement / every innate besides maybe Throw Item (for whatever reason) gimped, will something be done to buff Thief class at all, or do you hypothesize they'll be worthwhile to use as a mainstay class like they were in 1.3 (instead of say, learning Steal then moving to a Martial Arts Monk or some shit)?  Most of the reasons I personally used a main Thief for pretty much all of 1.3030 are gone (even if there were no big Steals, I'd probably have still used it because the class itself rocked), so I'm worrying if the class will still be worth something beyond "ability whore, move on" or not.

Also, Ribbons - they appear to be the only hair ornament class headgear left in the game, since you dropped Barette and Cachusa.  Is there a reason not to just take the Celia and Lede route and make them Accessories instead?  It'd break a lot of potentially "god" combos such as Ribbon + Setiemson, which pretty much lets you easy button against any end-game Assassin units you intend to place in Deep Dungeon or Murond / random battles, etc... especially since males can pull that off now too.  It seems like it'd be far more at home competing against the other end-game uber Accessories than the usually less-Uber Hats and Helmets, since it pretty much plays the role of an Accessory you wear on your head oftentimes anyway.
 
I think that's it for now.  I had the random thought on ??????? Weapon Guard on the car ride home tonight and just had a bunch of ideas at once, so I wanted to post before I forgot now that I'm at least mildly back again.  It's good to see this thing is still kicking, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 09, 2010, 11:32:51 pm
heeeey, raven!  wb!

....and there's the wall of text I missed so fondly.

As for the blue magic abilities and bosses, I can throw in a late-late game random or DD fight with a mastered blue magic flinging stuff at you or a few boss throwbacks -- so the spells are not lost and gone forever, but at least just not available to the player for a majority of the game should the player opt out of bringing in a blue mage for the encounter (or some wonky AI that almost never uses said ability, but I'll try to rig that on my end to be a near non-issue).  

Dunno about xbows.  The only statii that are remotely balanced at 100% are blind and poison.  Two-swords is no-no on any weapon with a range greater than one.  

Musty can get a better skillset (ie, one or two new moves), sure.  Don't want to give him innate anything.

With two primaries needed for each secondary, its really no different than the old scheme of needing both squire and knight/archer or chemist and priest/wizard to progress, only now theres 7 jobs on this teir instead of 4 on the old scheme, and it cascades from there.  

As for zodiacs with innate ????, there's two things -- one, there's only 7 slots available for innates to the bosses -- all bosses are getting innate finger guard, def up, and magic def up for starters.  Then they're getting their primary and secondary reactions, and the other two innate slots are for various supports like two swords or concentrate or something.  I can stick finger guard in the front, but for all I know it may be a non issue since half of these guys will have a support in their reaction slot >_>

The selection on bosses for blue magic spells are because of their relative storyline points -- Andramelk is rather interchangeable with Zalera, but I like having something at the end of each chapter (maybe even something from Algus) thats BM-able.  Note that due to the nature of blue magic teaching it to other blue mages is worlds easier than, say, zodiac, because the current plan is to make them affect any target.  

Speaking of blue magic, all those spells are going to be given an MP cost ranging from mostly spammable to "use once, need refill", to help balance them out.  Seal is a possibility but ultimately the sky is the limit and I was planning on introducing new skills tacked onto the bosses in order to present some blue magic in the first place.

Yes, Bio consolidation is possible, and the old Ja/Planar magic skillset is also capable of being gutted for various purposes.  

Mimes lost innate monster skill in order to gain both innate counter and counter magic, also with their already present innate martial arts and concentrate.  I had thought to give them a catch-all reaction like Counter Flood, or even something devious like MA save + PA save, but dunno.

Stats/immunities to mantles over evasion is a good thought, I'll see if I can wrestle with that for a spell.  But I can't make them TOO good, as I don't want to overshadow all the other accessories.

Dunno bout ribbons, I like forcing the player to give up the health/stats from the helmet over perfume perks.  I can change this stance easily though.

Think that's all of it?  

Current plans are actually a bit of a personal paradigm shift.  Looking to crank out a demo through most/all of chapter 1 before continuing with further entd/event edits.  Hopefully looking to fish for a few more voices into the matter.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2010, 12:37:39 am
*Edit:  I've edited this post a billion and a half times now.  Last at 2:37AM EST, noting so people (Philsov) remember to check for said edited parts when replying to this post in case they've already read it once previously.

Quote from: "philsov"heeeey, raven!  wb!

....and there's the wall of text I missed so fondly.

I will consume your soul if you ever TL;DR me.

Quote from: "philsov"As for the blue magic abilities and bosses, I can throw in a late-late game random or DD fight with a mastered blue magic flinging stuff at you or a few boss throwbacks -- so the spells are not lost and gone forever, but at least just not available to the player for a majority of the game should the player opt out of bringing in a blue mage for the encounter (or some wonky AI that almost never uses said ability, but I'll try to rig that on my end to be a near non-issue).

Good.  I've always thought having "learn on hit" abilities in a game like this that could actually be missed were bullshit.  

...Maybe have an END encounter of ridiculous difficulty that contains an uber Blue Mage, an uber Elidibs with a different sprite, and possibly an uber Ultima Demon?

That way all the "on-hit only" abilities can be learned from the same encounter, but doing so will be exceedingly difficult.  You can make all the Blue Mage's skills learnable elsewhere as well for people who want to scour the planet for them, but something like that is a fitting way to force people to earn a second shot at Zodiac.

Quote from: "philsov"Dunno about xbows.  The only statii that are remotely balanced at 100% are blind and poison.  Two-swords is no-no on any weapon with a range greater than one.

True.

I just had the ridiculous idea of a Crossbow that inflicts Undead possibly 50% or the time or something but will heal any non-Undead units.

I have no idea why we'd ever want to add something like that to the game but it seems ridiculous enough to be worth looking into since its worthless against units before it proc's them.

I would make two of the bows inflict respective 100% Blind and 100% Poison, though.  There's no reason every single crossbow needs to conform to the exact same gimmick.

Quote from: "philsov"Musty can get a better skillset (ie, one or two new moves), sure.  Don't want to give him innate anything.

Very well.  It was just a passing thought on the innates since it would at least make him the best gunman in the game in his base class and as such worth using as an Engineer and not, say, a Chemist with Snipe and Defense UP.  I just liked the uniqueness of it since it makes sense for an Engineer to be the best gunner in the game.

I have no idea offhand what to add to his skillset, though, unless you make custom skills.  Hm... if they could be fixed, the old Squire Skills from 1.3029 would be a funky fix into the Snipe Skillset (or even at least one of them back into the actual Basic Skill set).

Quote from: "philsov"With two primaries needed for each secondary, its really no different than the old scheme of needing both squire and knight/archer or chemist and priest/wizard to progress, only now theres 7 jobs on this teir instead of 4 on the old scheme, and it cascades from there.

I suppose that's true.  The 6 open Jobs at the beginning actually will do a lot to help fix some difficulty issues I encountered when I patched a new ASM'D and tested more of Chapter 1.  (See end of post).

Quote from: "philsov"As for zodiacs with innate ????, there's two things -- one, there's only 7 slots available for innates to the bosses -- all bosses are getting innate finger guard, def up, and magic def up for starters.  Then they're getting their primary and secondary reactions, and the other two innate slots are for various supports like two swords or concentrate or something.  I can stick finger guard in the front, but for all I know it may be a non issue since half of these guys will have a support in their reaction slot >_>

XD;

I see.

That would work, I suppose.   You can't rename it to ??????? since the player actually uses Finger Guard, though.  Oh well.

...I just realized, can't we bomb Weapon Guard to have even more room for new skills, if you haven't already?  I know you were having issues with finding room to fit all the skills in before, hence this, the previous Bio suggestion, etc.

Quote from: "philsov"The selection on bosses for blue magic spells are because of their relative storyline points -- Andramelk is rather interchangeable with Zalera, but I like having something at the end of each chapter (maybe even something from Algus) thats BM-able.  Note that due to the nature of blue magic teaching it to other blue mages is worlds easier than, say, zodiac, because the current plan is to make them affect any target.

Speaking of blue magic, all those spells are going to be given an MP cost ranging from mostly spammable to "use once, need refill", to help balance them out.  Seal is a possibility but ultimately the sky is the limit and I was planning on introducing new skills tacked onto the bosses in order to present some blue magic in the first place.

Algus would be eh, him having Blue Magic seems silly.  I figured that on MP costs as well, and if you give such abilities to Zodiac Monsters, you can always take their MP dial and turn it up to "uber retarded" so they never suffer manascrew.

How about something like:

Queklain - Bio 3
Velius - Seal
Zalera - Flare 2
Aldramelk - ...I still got nothing.  IIRC he only uses basic magic and Bahamut, all of which are covered in other classs.  ...Wait, doesn't he use Confuse 2 or Sleep 2 or something? :D  I could totally see Zalera sporting Quake and Aldramelk sporting Tornado.

Quote from: "philsov"Mimes lost innate monster skill in order to gain both innate counter and counter magic, also with their already present innate martial arts and concentrate.  I had thought to give them a catch-all reaction like Counter Flood, or even something devious like MA save + PA save, but dunno.

The ability to take a Mime and four monsters reasonably through the story seems so novel to me, which is the main reason I lament losing Monster Skill.

I think Counter and Counter Magic is a good setup, better fitting for a Mime than Counter Flood.  I'm half tempted to ask the million-dollar "how many innates can we cram onto this boat?" question, because a Mime with a bunch of silly Innates just seems so appealing, if only just to say we did it.

Quote from: "philsov"Stats/immunities to mantles over evasion is a good thought, I'll see if I can wrestle with that for a spell.  But I can't make them TOO good, as I don't want to overshadow all the other accessories.

Of course.  The simple Wizard Mantle MA+1 and 15% A-EV was plenty for me in Vanilla and 1.3.  It was relevant enough to protect my mages for most of the game, and losing the 5%-10% evasion for the extra power if I wasn't Abandon-wrecking.

I'm assuming most mantles lost roughly 5% of their evasions already.  I'd say make all mantles have between 5-10% evasion on both ends (except for maybe 15% magical on Dracula Mantle), and give simple buffs.

Wizard Mantle gives MA +1, so its all set.
Elf Mantle... I've got nothing that would make sense being granted by an Elf's mantle atm, honestly.
Dracula Mantle could be something like Immune: Dead, Undead, Blood Suck, or Half/Absorb: Dark, or something.  Not really sure.
Feather Mantle could grant Always: Float.  Float Boots could be given something to allow it to compete with Feather Mantle in the way it had Move +1 back in 1.3, as I assume it no longer has that.

Quote from: "philsov"Dunno bout ribbons, I like forcing the player to give up the health/stats from the helmet over perfume perks.  I can change this stance easily though.

Initial: Haste seems more game-breaking than some HP in any situation where you'd actually want to wear a Ribbon, IIRC.

Having gone through the 1.3 Colliery at Level 50, I can't imagine anything I tried working if Ribbon weren't a hat/helmet, and I can't imagine any perk a hat/helmet would grant me that would be half as good.  Besides, if you don't know you're going to need Ribbon in a fight, you'll often use a stat plus headgear anyway, then do minor compensation via Ribbon + buff accessory / Setiemson / whatever if you find you need it normally.  Making it an accessory makes it a bit more worthwhile to actually just equip onto a character as the "primary" accessory.

Alternatively / in addition, make Twist Headband a hair ornament / otherwise make it equippable by Monks.  THE MONK SPRITE HAS A HEADBAND ON IT SO IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO EQUIP A FUCKING HEADBAND.

*ahem*.

Quote from: "philsov"Current plans are actually a bit of a personal paradigm shift.  Looking to crank out a demo through most/all of chapter 1 before continuing with further entd/event edits.  Hopefully looking to fish for a few more voices into the matter.

Can't wait.

Also, I did some streaming the last two days using the old version of the patch you sent me, and...





Captain's Log, Stardate Cancer 13.

Dorter Trade City -

I went in with 2 Knights 1 Chemist 1 Archer, Guests are Bow Gun Squires.  Archers peg me for 35 damage-ish. It takes us way too long to move in, Wizards close in by the time we're able to deal with said Archers due to low Move speed and no ranged abilities besides bows, we get wrecked.  It doesn't help that the Knight is a loving Item tank, and one of the Archers also has it for dickery.

Leave, raise a Wizard and a Priest with inverse Secondaries, come back.  Now I'm getting pegged for 50 a shot despite my average level never ascending beyond 3.  I think this is related to the glitch with the panthers and barehanded units, since that's ridiculous.  I would say best compat was the cause, but 45-55 was the average bow damage I received for most of the fight.  Needless to say, magic breaks this fight wide open.  It took a bit of getting used to the low movement ranges and such, but I beat it in one try with magic.

Summary: Fairly difficult.  However, having Wizard and Priest open at the beginning of the game now (something I couldn't access) probably makes this fight a deal easier, especially if the mystery of the ridiculous bow damage has been solved.  Then again, maybe it's just Archers having really high stats, as I'll hypothesize a bit later (at Thieve's Fort)...

Cellar of the Sand Mouserat -

This is where I learned that Monk and Knight are pretty good classes once they have Wave Fist and Ruin skills, respectively.  My first attempt was a standard formation, Ramza + Thief + Deleter taking one end with two Mages + Al Gore taking the other one.  (The Soldier Office allowed me to rename my Guest units, so the stream told me to rename Delita and Algus to Deleter and Al Gore, respectively.  It has no effects on their dialogue as of yet, and I'm pretty sure it won't affect Algus' name display at Fort Zeakden, but it's a funny little thing.  Reminds me of Pokemon and how you can rename your Rival and such, honestly.)  Knights raped Algus, then raped my mages.  Monks and Archers helped.  Everyone else got bumrushed by the entire enemy party and died.

Take two, I move all my characters to hold the single choke point near Al Gore, while Deleter pseudo-duels the Monk on the far end.  Multiple bows and magic blasts in a concentrated area took out the Knights and everyone else quickly enough, and I got 5 TREASURE BOXES (insert Brooklyn Rage here)!  Killed last Monk once he got done doing naughty things with Deleter's corpse, moved on.

Summary:  Hard if you try to do it the way you would in vanilla or 1.3.  Easy to moderate pending how much magic you're sporting as long as you focus on a single choke point because the AI doesn't like retreating if there's no targets behind them.

Thieve's Fort -

Sturdy mages, fast Thieves, and trying to ham Deleter and Al Gore as Chemists for free Spillover JP get me raped my first run through.  Take two, they're Squires, one with a Bow Gun the other with an Iron Sword.  I concentrate on taking out those enemy mages and the Item Thief quickly, and are able to soon start waiting for Crystals and such.  Miluda somehow knowing both Wish and Revive (wut?) causes me to lose out on a really good Thief crystal, but I nab one for my Priest that has Raise 2 and Cure 2.  She goes down easily once I'm done.  One thing I noticed here though was that my Thief's Long Bow only did about 25 damage, a stark contrast to the 35-55 I was being pelted with at Dorter Trade City from the same weapon.  Since I wasn't attacking any Defense UP units with, maybe it means it was just high PA / SP or the Archer class or something, pending what formula Bows currently use?

Summary:  Pretty challenging, honestly.  Focused blasts of Bolt on groups combined with my ever-nimble and highly underrated Thief were the main reasons I was able to win.  If Knights get some JP cuts on their abilities, I can see them being able to tank out this mission with a healer or two, though.  

Lenalia Plateau -

Jesus fucking assraping cockmonkeys.

Try one, my Thief eats a Charge +20 on the first turn and is OHKO'd (for 130 damage, and I'm like Level 6).  It goes downhill from there as the Knight Slows Deleter and the Archers begin to turn my mages into swiss blond people.

Try two, my Thief only eats a Charge +2 for about 50 damage.  We move up, begin bringing down magic and arrows.  The Time Mages begin spamming Fire 2 and Haste, with Defense UP making it take forever (3 turns + dodging) for my Thief to out them.  Wouldn't be as big a deal, but there's no realistic way for anything not using arrows or magic to hit them due to lowered move...  I eventually take it out after having to revive my Thief, and continue raining magic down.  Sadly, I'm only doing 25-35 damage per spell in their 140ish HP Knight hides, and I can't get close enough to spell-nuke either mage, nor am I mobile enough overall to heal my guys and get the hell out before the next wave of magic and arrows.

Summary:  They had mobility and sizable ranged damage.  I did not.  They had the high ground.  I did not.  They had the entire width of the battlefield to spread out horizontally.  I did not, due to having water on either side of me.  Maybe having Wizard and Priest open initially (meaning the player's able to acrue more JP for those jobs) and the aforementioned lowering of Break Skill JP costs will help this problem, but I can't really say for sure due to how much of an advantage the opposition starts with, in terms of both terrain and abilities.  I may go get Move +1 on more of my units along with some more powerful ranged abilities and try the fight again, but I'm thinking it might honestly be easier to go collect a few sets of monsters and play Beast Master due to the monsters and Monster Skills combining to actually give me some sizable mobility (and likely higher damage) in terms of ASM'D.  Then again, I know you tweaked monsters due to Blue Mage being included, so maybe this may not be the best idea on a newer ASM'D patch.  I would merely try not charging forward early on, but the Archers can hit me from ridiculously far away for huge damage chunks anyway and from a range I can't easily reciprocate.  Maybe getting Counter or Auto-Potion on my Bow-Thief would be prudent as well.

Notes:

*Starting with Dorter Trade City 1, I've noticed Knights are conistently useless in Chapter 1.  Their abilities cost too much JP, meaning they have a total of 3 range to attack each turn for the most part, low Speed, and honestly inferior damage output to a Wizard, who has a total range of 6 Spaces if you count the Black Magic and AoE.  They might be better once the player has some abilities and Move +1 and such (the computer controlled Knights with actual ability suites are rather threatening, so its not the class that sucks), but that's later on.  JP costs for Knight abilities should be slashed as far as Battle Skill is concerned, at least, else they don't learn their ranged skills fast enough to be worth anything during Chapter 1 without heavy training in other classes first.  This is something I found none of the other 5 classes you want to become base classes have a problem with.  They're all pretty usable out-of-the-box, so Knight should be too.  

*Equip Meleeset seems to do nothing unless I patched the game incorrectly.  (Note: I repatched the game and got the text working, so it should be correct unless I misclicked something in orgASM.)  It might be equipping Axes like it was originally intended to do but not Swords or Flails yet, if the version of the patch you gave me didn't have Equip Meleeset programmed yet.  Equip Clothes seems to allow you to Equip Swords, because I encountered a Thief in the Thieve's Fort battle using Equip Clothes + Iron Sword, which furthers my thinking you gave me text and learned class changes to those abilities but hadn't actually changed them yet.  Reporting it regardless, just in case it is a bug.

*Thief isn't useless, as I previously thought it would be.  The extra movement square and higher Speed are godsends, especially combined.  It's still a really good class just for those two things alone.  I worry if there will be any reason to use it instead of Ninja later on, but for now the Thief is great.  I use one with Move +1 and either Equip Bow or Throw Item for a fast ranged healer / fighter, and I can't say I'm let down.

*Shade of Grey and Turtle Shell have their names backwards in several places in the tactext file I have.  I haven't tested how either item works in-game yet, but I know their names are backwards in several places, including on the Ability list (clicking Select gives you a different description) and at the Item shop (again, Select gives you the opposite's description).

*Monks seem to still have innate Martial Arts, at least in this version of the patch.  I thought it was removed, or was that after supplying this version of it?  Martial Arts costs me 0000 and Thieves don't seem to have innate Concentrate, so I'm assuming it wasn't supposed to have innate Martial Arts.  Monks also seem to suffer the range problem I spoke of earlier with Knights.  They're really good once you get even something as simple as Wave Fist (I fucked up and got Spin Fist first, d'oh.), but before then they suck because they move slowly and can't do much until they're in range.

*Fire 1 isn't the same Speed as Bolt 1 or Ice 1.  I don't know if this is true of the other Fire tiers or not yet, though.  The descriptions all say that the three Spells are each Speed 25, but Fire is charging faster, making me believe its Speed 33, assuming your descriptions of their Speeds are accurate.

*The Throw Stone Spell Quote contains a typo, saying "Throw Stonet!" instead of "Throw Stone!"

*I may have just forgotten to click it in orgASM, but I noticed my W-EV wasn't being factored into defending against attacks during one of my Lenalia Plateau runs.  You may want to check whatever version of ASM'D you currently have to be sure innate Weapon Guard is working on it, just in case.

*My Time Mages could still learn Teleport.

I think that's everything I noticed while playing.  I don't know how many of my Notes were addressed in my absence, but I'm reporting everything just in case.

Random thought - Asmo recently expressed a concern about the spoof script.  Is it possible to make a version of ASM'D that doesn't include for the people who'd be bothered by something like that, or are you already at the point where that'd be far too big a bitch?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 10, 2010, 08:04:56 am
TL;DR the summaries/battle notes...

There's not enough room in the Wizard Skillset for Flare 2 and Frog 2.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2010, 01:18:48 pm
Quote from: "Zaen"There's not enough room in the Wizard Skillset for Flare 2 and Frog 2.

Goddamn Wizard and its having 16 Skills... erm, 7 Skills, 3 of which need to be arbitrarily divided into 4 tiers.

EDIT:  Is it possible to make Black Magic "scale"?  So that, in Chapter 1 say, my Wizard can learn Fire / Bolt / Ice, and at the beginning of Chapter 2 these skills become Fire 2 / Ice 2 / Bolt 2, with whatever ones I already knew carrying over and the remaining ones having their proper JP costs  (meaning when level goes up, Bolt 2 would cost 120 or whatever, etc).

This means you could have the 3 tiered magic that increments in power as the user plays, the 0 CT magic which has roughly the power of a tier 2 Spell and no charge for the times your spell is too slow, and Wizard would only have 10 abilities at a time, meaning there would be room for Flare 2 and Toad 2.  You could possibly have these Spells become available at the start of Chapter 3 to keep the "level up" feel the other spells have, though they should remain separate because of how functionally different they are from their originals, whereas Fire 1 is generally not useful anymore once you get Fire 2 save against uberspeed units, etc.

The main argument against such a thing would obviously be "but thas not the FFT way!", to which I'd say "defininitely isn't", but considering how Draw Out, Summon, etc got a bunch of new AoEs to shake them up and stop them from being "Elemental copy X of power tier Y", such a system with the four Fire/Bolt/Ice Spells (along with possibly Cure, Demi, etc.) is less of a stretch than it would be normally.  It also stops stupid things like "that CPU Wizard had Fire 4 at Zaland at Level 7!" BS by proxy if the CPU also scales in this way.  Plus, since there are time gaps between Chapters 1, 2, and 3, it makes sense that Wizards and co would have time to "ascend" between them.

Granted, I don't know how complicated that would be, such as if it would require each mage "tier" for that chapter having its own ability set, etc. since I don't actually do much hacking, but the idea seems solid enough and fitting enough in theory.  *Shrug*
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 10, 2010, 06:59:00 pm
Again, forgive the lack of proper quoting, I'm stuck on a laptop for now and the rest of the week so all the mouse min-maxing makes my fingers cry.  

@black magic scaling -- no.  Or, like I've said many many times thus far, "yes, possible in theory but not by neither of us jackbutts."

The problem with enemy spell selection, especially with black magic, is fixed through 2 methods.  The first I employed quite rigorously in easytype, and that was the creation of a custom enemy skillset (read: auto-learn) atwhich has only X spells and Y spells.  Chapter 1 mages got ele 1 and 2 plus some others, and it scaled up from there.  The second, and this applies more to random battle mages that don't receive the same TLC, is simply re-ordering the skillset to be more AI-friendly -- so like Fire, Ice, Bolt, Fire 2, Ice 2, Bolt 2, etcetcetc.  But that results in a cosmetic blip for the player, but I see if I can craft one up that satisfies both fronts.  

100% blind is already present in the squire skillset, and honestly the perk of shields to go with xbows and the range gutting on longbows might be enough to keep xbows on the same line until endgame, so I can buff up gastrafitis to be 100% poison, perhaps (at the expense of being poaching-viable, mind).  

The oil/float thing won't be included, simply because I really dislike float having negative consequences attached to it, and I don't think I can modify the code to be oil exclusive.

Was definitely planning bio out of queklain... maybe Seal out of Velius.  I dunno.  

As for old Ja going into other classes, I don't know the current spell cap on most of the casters, but I don't think there's much to work with.  

Flare2 was going into black magic as an odd kind of default anyways, so much that the skillset is primarily for damage in small AoE fashion.  

Zombie/Confuse/Sleep 2 are too similar to their Oracle counterparts to be worthwhile.  

Return2 is a possibility, but I'd want to tweak it a bit for balance purposes.  

Quake/Tornado are great blue magic candidates, I'll see where I can place them.  Rather not mess with much blue magic on Hashy/Altima because they're past the point of no return, and I don't want to hand the player some super-awesome ability to be used exactly for the next fight while not getting said ability makes those fights harder.  Great battle reports, I've drawn up prelim ENTD stuff through chapter 2 at this point.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2010, 08:47:35 pm
I'm reorganizing your post simply so my points follow in some logical order, since I kinda replied to it haphazardly.

Quote from: "philsov"Again, forgive the lack of proper quoting, I'm stuck on a laptop for now and the rest of the week so all the mouse min-maxing makes my fingers cry.  

I don't really mind it, honestly.  Don't worry about it.

Quote from: "philsov"As for old Ja going into other classes, I don't know the current spell cap on most of the casters, but I don't think there's much to work with.

I believe all ability sets have a 16 ability cap due to everything pretty much being on a base 16 number system.

Quote from: "philsov"@black magic scaling -- no.  Or, like I've said many many times thus far, "yes, possible in theory but not by neither of us jackbutts."

The problem with enemy spell selection, especially with black magic, is fixed through 2 methods.  The first I employed quite rigorously in easytype, and that was the creation of a custom enemy skillset (read: auto-learn) atwhich has only X spells and Y spells.  Chapter 1 mages got ele 1 and 2 plus some others, and it scaled up from there.  The second, and this applies more to random battle mages that don't receive the same TLC, is simply re-ordering the skillset to be more AI-friendly -- so like Fire, Ice, Bolt, Fire 2, Ice 2, Bolt 2, etcetcetc.  But that results in a cosmetic blip for the player, but I see if I can craft one up that satisfies both fronts.

I see.

I was just trying to think of ways to either get more in there or otherwise diversify it somewhat.  Black Magic is pretty much 7 skills, 10 if you count the 0 CT versions you're adding since they do operate noticeably different from the others.

I wish there were some way to merely make the skillset less linear, as all.  Some moderately powerful 0CT Spells (that I'm guessing will have JP / MP costs far higher than their non-0CT tier 2 counterparts) was a great start, but we're still left with Element 1/2/3 that are basically the same skill with more power.  It's the same problem Summons and Draw Out had, and it sucks being unable to fix it.

Idea:

Fire/Bolt/Ice 1, either do something with them, or keep them the same as the "beginner Spells" so the player has something to begin fiddling with immediately.

Fire/Bolt/Ice 2 can be rigged to have tier 1 power, but more AoE and vert tolerance than their contemporaries.  By having the most AoE, it becomes a good way for either side to break Phoenix Down whoring or do some mass early-peppering at the risk of triggering a lot of reactions.

Fire/Bolt/Ice 3 could use cross AoE and do the most damage.

Fire/Bolt/Ice 4 could be the CT0 versions.

We could cut the first tier entirely, but this makes me think that C1 enemy mages would be too powerful with access to the mass AoE, at least early on.  I've noticed that tier 1 spell damage becomes quickly negligible (~30ish, IIRC) even during Chapter 1 without weather / rod boosting, so this worry is mostly for Dorter Trade City honestly.

Hmm.

Tier 1 is mass AoE and vert, low damage, approximately that of the old Tier 1.

Tier 2 is CT 0, single target, moderate damage.

Tier 3 is cross AoE, highest damage, but with old tier 1 vert and longest cast time.   Possibly give it the raw power of the old tier 4 to compensate it competing with an instant-cast Spell.

Change names accordingly.

This leaves 3 spaces on the Wizard's skillset, which could go to Flare 2 and Toad 2 (rename Toad to Frog, make these two Frogja and Flareja?), and then one leftover ability slot in case we want to use it later.

We could follow the same setup for White Mages, with Cure 1 being large AoE, low HP refill, Cure 2 being single target, instant decent cure, Cure 3 being cross and highly potent.

With some MP cost and range manipulations, it should be easy enough to balance these spells during Chapter 1 and have pretty much all of them usable for most of the game.  Raise and Raise 2 would still essentially be mirrors of each other with different HP buffs and success rates, but anyone who uses White Magic a lot knows those two little things mean more than enough to justify them as two separate abilities.

Quote from: "philsov"Flare2 was going into black magic as an odd kind of default anyways, so much that the skillset is primarily for damage in small AoE fashion.  

Zombie/Confuse/Sleep 2 are too similar to their Oracle counterparts to be worthwhile.  

Return2 is a possibility, but I'd want to tweak it a bit for balance purposes.

Yeah @ Flare.  Flare 1 is high damage, somewhat fast, single target, whereas Flare 2 is AoE and slower, so it's fine I think.  Though I just realized Toad 1 and 2 share the same AoE.

Hm.

I'd disagree a little on the Oracle thing, mostly because the Oracle Spells don't always have AoE, where as the Ja set does.  Notable on Dispel and Zombie.  You could remove the AoE from Sleep 1, then make the four original Spells faster + higher success rate on single target, with the slower ones being AoE and slightly slower success rate.

The real problem with that though is that Oracle only has space for 3 Spells, 2 if you return Foxbird (now that I pay attention to how large the ability sets are).

So, seeing as Sleep 2 and Sleep share the same AoE (I think the only difference is Vert tol, and maybe success rate?) you can axe giving them Sleep 2.

Giving them the others, or Dispelja + 1 other if you return Fox Bird doesn't seem like it'd be a problem though, since the additional AoEs with decent vertical tolerances seems like it'd mean a lot in some places.

An aside about Oracles - 1.3 Blind has ridiculous AoE, and this game has more evasion + less move.  Do you think this'll be a problem, or are you just going to lower Blind's initial range to compensate for its higher AoE and call it a day / do nothing and see what happens first?

As for Return 2, maybe make it single-target only or cross AoE for moderate MP?  I figured it would need some debuffing because the initial AoE is monstrous IIRC.

Gravi 2 would be cool as a single-target spell as well.  Bosses would be immune to it anyway, so it'd end up being a late game, heavily costed wall-breaker during generic fights I think.

I'd be recommending spell names for everything under these suggestions as well, but I kinda suck at them honestly.

Quote from: "philsov"100% blind is already present in the squire skillset, and honestly the perk of shields to go with xbows and the range gutting on longbows might be enough to keep xbows on the same line until endgame, so I can buff up gastrafitis to be 100% poison, perhaps (at the expense of being poaching-viable, mind).

Possibly.

I was thinking Bow Gun could remain "vanilla", one inflict the 50% Blind (Night Killer does Blind in vanilla, so even with Blind Blow existing I think its finel), one that inflicts 50% Poison (again, vanilla precedence), one that has the 1.3 double shot (Gastrafitis, or maybe a weaker one?), and one that does healing instead of damage but inflicts 50% Zombie (since IIRC, healing weapons damage Zombies, right?  This idea just seems really cool on paper imo).   Maybe a low power crossbow that can inflict Don't Act?  Having effectless attacking weapons just seems kinda boring, honestly, and was my biggest beef with Ninja Swords in vanilla (and 1.3 a lot) by a mile.  Weapons in large part having effects just seems like the next step for ASM'D, since it allows for more strategy and uniqueness and such beyond "highest WP stat!  rawr damage!"

A lot of Long Bows have elementals and sometimes a Spell proc (Windslash Bow is Wind, or should be, Lightning Bow and Ice Bow are respective elements and do X-2 on proc), etc., so just making crossbows effectless damage dealers seems kind of depressing.  Speaking of, how will you be handling the unique bows (Ultimus, Yoichi, Perseus)?  Any ideas yet?  

Quote from: "philsov"The oil/float thing won't be included, simply because I really dislike float having negative consequences attached to it, and I don't think I can modify the code to be oil exclusive.

I don't see Float being Weak vs Wind being an issue, since Wind is less prevalent than Earth (IIRC), and Float gives you a straight immunity to Earth and some other really nice perks to more than justify being weak to an incredibly niche element.  Windslash Bow and incredibly late game Blue Magic with Tornado seem like the only relevant sources of Wind damage, besides maybe a Summon.

Quote from: "philsov"Was definitely planning bio out of queklain... maybe Seal out of Velius.  I dunno.

Quake/Tornado are great blue magic candidates, I'll see where I can place them.  Rather not mess with much blue magic on Hashy/Altima because they're past the point of no return, and I don't want to hand the player some super-awesome ability to be used exactly for the next fight while not getting said ability makes those fights harder.

This is what I was thinking, now that I've organized my thoughts more.

Queklain - Bio 3.
Velius - Seal
Zalera - Quake (add to his skillset)
Aldramelk - Tornado (add to his skillset)
Hashmalum - Melt ***
Elidibs - Midgar Swarm ###

This along with the 10 abilities you already mentioned would make it a perfect 16 ability set with abilities spanning literally the entire game (but not requiring entering Orbonne for Mastered Blue Mage).

*** Override the 1.3 Ninja encounter (since you took out Rubber Costume) in Bervenia Volcano (or maybe in something in the Dolbar Swamp after Elmdor?) with an encounter with a boss-like Dragon monster that can cast Melt, so that the player has access to it outside of Hashmalum.  Hashmalum really wouldn't need an ability set edit to carry Blue Magic with this setup, thinking on it.  He carries Melt / Quake / Tornado naturally, the Ultima Demons in the next fight carry Dark Holy, etc.  That already covers almost every boss-like Blue Magic, except for Bio 3, Seal, Midgar Swarm under this setup.

### Again, obviously add a battle in END that allows you to fight against a hyper Blue Mage or something using Elidibs' skillset to make sure the player can't miss this entirely.

Quote from: "philsov"Great battle reports, I've drawn up prelim ENTD stuff through chapter 2 at this point.

Nice.

Lenalia Plateau is loving hard due to the terrain and everything seeming to be semi-tankish with Defense UPs and stuff.  I'll need to test it with the C1 beta you're planning on releasing to comment on whether it should be toned back first, though, since the new Job Decagon means a lot in terms of pretty much all of C1's difficulty.

Other than that, like I said previously, Knight's stuff all being way too expensive was the main roadblock I hit.  I'd probably half the cost of most of their abilities, honestly.

Every other "starting" class can learn a bunch of abilities for ~50-150 JP, but Knight gets walled at 200 and also has the hardest time acruing JP in Chapter 1.  Making the Ruin skills each cost ~100-150 and lowering the Break skills a bit would fix this problem, I think, since I wouldn't need to be Job Level 4 to have two damn Ruin skills without crystals.

Lowering JP costs also means the AI can buy more of them, so lowering the costs actually causing Chapter 1 to become easier shouldn't be an issue.  That, and Chemists can toss Turtle Shells during Chapter 1 anyway to slow things, IIRC.

Speaking of Chapter 1, I made this suggestion earlier but I think it got lost in the shuffle.  Since there are now 6 starting classes, is it possible to make each of the Chapter 1 generics into one of each class?  It should be if I remember my very vague knowledge of hacking correctly, and it'd honestly be a great touch for ASM'D to include.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 10, 2010, 09:22:14 pm
Ah, forgot the foxbird reply -- no.  The only method to lowering Br will be talk skill, so I can enable all (Zodiac) bosses to have innate finger guard and thereby be immune.  But Oracles are still gaining a CT0 spell of their own to cancel charging.  

Regarding your black magic scheme, while it works within its own skillset, it bleeds far too much into the specialty of summon magic.  Black magic is primarily smaller aoe with higher output, while summons are larger aoe but average out to less damage.  See also cure and moogle.  And... looking over my list I've neglected to give summon magic its own little CT0 ability... I'll need to cut something somewhere due to animation/effect constraints?  Bah, I need to review the summon list later.

Blind will probably be reduced to a single AoE with larger charge time, and dispel magic needs to be at 1 aoe in the first place.  I'd sooner try and introduce new skills over whats left of Ja.

With float affecting wind damage, it'd be like the zombie + Raise2 combo, only it affects multiple targets now ~_~.  

The vanilla values for poison bow/etc was 25%.  

Agreed on the knights.  I can trim the ruins down to 100 JP each and go from there.

Yes, I can make a good spread of the starter generics, and to that end also expand the selection at gariland to include the first weapons and heavy armor that one might find in igros.  What I'm torn about is to give them set Br/Fa (55/67 casters, 67/55 fighters, 61/61 squire/chemist) or simply go back to random and let the player enjoy going for the 71-74 lottery that the soldier office simply doesn't offer.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2010, 10:52:43 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Ah, forgot the foxbird reply -- no.  The only method to lowering Br will be talk skill, so I can enable all (Zodiac) bosses to have innate finger guard and thereby be immune.  But Oracles are still gaining a CT0 spell of their own to cancel charging.

I understand, and I'll definitely take that instead.

Quote from: "philsov"Regarding your black magic scheme, while it works within its own skillset, it bleeds far too much into the specialty of summon magic.  Black magic is primarily smaller aoe with higher output, while summons are larger aoe but average out to less damage.  See also cure and moogle.  And... looking over my list I've neglected to give summon magic its own little CT0 ability... I'll need to cut something somewhere due to animation/effect constraints?  Bah, I need to review the summon list later.

Then maybe current Tier 1 + the other two I said?

It kinda sucks since Tier 1 will quickly become outdated for anything that's not mop-up damage (well, it'll be the AoE Black Magic of choice longer, but outside of that...), but it still leaves 2/3 good skills and 3 slots leftover in the Wizard ability suite to mess with.  So Flareja + 2 others, if you wanted.

As for Summons, the last time we spoke about them, you had Ifrit and Salamander as the exact same Summon style, more or less.  If that's still the case, you could always gut Salamander or Ifrit and make it a CT0 skill.

EDIT: Random thought.

Sleep and Sleep 2, Toad and Toad 2, and maybe some other Ja-Normal Magicks relations have the same AoE and effect, with the only differences being vertical tolerance and % effectiveness.  I say we take all these skills and consolidate them into one skill that's halfway between the original and the -Ja version.

The Ja versions can then be nuked and replaced for more room to make abilities in.

Streamlining!  We're doing it!

Quote from: "philsov"Blind will probably be reduced to a single AoE with larger charge time, and dispel magic needs to be at 1 aoe in the first place.  I'd sooner try and introduce new skills over whats left of Ja.

I suppose.

I was just trying to weasel the Ja skills in where we could simply because... why not?  ASM'D removes a lot of skills from the player's arsenal on top of the ones they lose in 1.3, so it only feels fair to give them as much as possible in return.

I really wish there were some way to add in more movement skills, though...

*thought* If Ignore Height also gave Move +1, would it be better than Fly / Move +2, do you think, or would it be just another really good competing ability?

Right now viable Movement skills are all of Move +2, Fly, Move-HP UP, Move-MP UP from what I remember, so more skills that can actually compete for the role of "best movement ability" would be much welcome.

Would consolidating Movement skills like Walk on Lava / any Weather / other otherwise worthless Movement skills into one big skill placed on ...something... be an option?  You'd only be outdating Movement skills that'd only see use as innates on Geomancer or something anyway.

That actually seems like a good idea - keep the lesser movement skills as "on the way" kind of things that still are slightly useful as innate skills, and make one big one over the now-unused Move +3 or something that covers all their roles and is actually maybe worth equipping.  Then again, Float might still be better, but the only way to make that not so is to either tack a Move +1 on top of all this stuff or give Float some kind of minor weakness.  Eh.

Though, a Samurai with innate Walk on Water actually seems like a cool idea... even if a Ninja with Move in Water (fucking names that don't do what they say!) innate could get kind of silly.  Regardless, I think gold may have just been struck here.

Quote from: "philsov"With float affecting wind damage, it'd be like the zombie + Raise2 combo, only it affects multiple targets now ~_~.

That'd require Float + Tornado, IIRC, but I get your point I suppose.

Hm... if we can't do that, what CAN we make Oil status do?  :D

Quote from: "philsov"The vanilla values for poison bow/etc was 25%.

I was referencing the fact that bows initially doled out those statuses, not the actual percents.  Higher percents / a bit more WP from vanilla would be the buffs we gave them.  I'm just saying it wouldn't be like we're stepping on Squire's shoes since they were there originally, and if we make it 50% there's still more than enough reason to use Blind Blow with Archers for the guaranteed Blind... especially if using anything that's not the Night Killer.

Quote from: "philsov"Agreed on the knights.  I can trim the ruins down to 100 JP each and go from there.

You're my hero.  You should carry these changes over to Easytype, and see if you can get them crammed into actual 1.3.

Knights take way too fucking long to get JP early game for the prices being demanded, be it vanilla or 1.3 or this.

Quote from: "philsov"Yes, I can make a good spread of the starter generics, and to that end also expand the selection at gariland to include the first weapons and heavy armor that one might find in igros.  What I'm torn about is to give them set Br/Fa (55/67 casters, 67/55 fighters, 61/61 squire/chemist) or simply go back to random and let the player enjoy going for the 71-74 lottery that the soldier office simply doesn't offer.

Do it for the armor / weapons.  If the Knight in armor has too much HP, you can always lower the HP bonus of the lowest tier armor since no one actually ever fucking buys it anyway, IIRC.  You get two sets of armor to buy your first trip to Igros Castle, and one random battle pretty much ensures you can afford plenty of the second set... so yeah.

I also think set Br / Fa is actually a good idea.  It gives new players who don't want to grind-reset to hell some decent guys, and if someone wants to go perfectionist in the Soldier Office it'll be of their own volition, not because the game gave them shit generics and they didn't want to reset the first battle or two over and over again.  I don't see losing out on the 74 Br/Fa potential as a big deal, myself, since I'm assuming you want this hack to be at least somewhat newbie friendly in the way Easytype strives to be.

EDIT:  Does this mean the first battle at Gariland Magic City may have something besides Squires and a Chemist in it as well, or will you not be touching that?




EDIT about Quake/Tornado/Melt: I just realized they're all the same spell with different elements.  Do we do something about this or kinda leave them in their Black Magic-style of being mirrored elements of the same thing?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zeio on March 11, 2010, 07:08:57 pm
QuoteEDIT about Quake/Tornado/Melt: I just realized they're all the same spell with different elements. Do we do something about this or kinda leave them in their Black Magic-style of being mirrored elements of the same thing?

They all have different MA multipliers in default FFT, though.  I think it's 38 for Melt, 37 for Tornado, and 39 for Quake.  Don't quote me on that, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 11, 2010, 07:36:38 pm
Quote from: "Zeio"They all have different MA multipliers in default FFT, though.  I think it's 38 for Melt, 37 for Tornado, and 39 for Quake.  Don't quote me on that, though.

I see.

That seems like an arbitrary way to differentiate them in an elaborate patch like ASM'D, though.

Each one doing some kind of status or something though could be cool, but I don't have too many ideas as to what statuses as of right now.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 11, 2010, 09:17:37 pm
You could make each have a special effect. Tornado could get an Earthslash effect, but stronger and Wind elemental, Melt could be high, concentrated damage, and Quake could be moderate, massive AoE damage.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on March 12, 2010, 11:26:04 am
*walls of text crumble over Seph*

h-- hello! - *huff* -- welcome back Raven!! ^^

There's a million things that can be done with this patch, so I though it'd be better to change only some at a time.. to avoid overloading Phil :)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 14, 2010, 03:50:58 pm
movement consolidation/modification is not possible at this time.

Quotewe're still left with Element 1/2/3 that are basically the same skill with more power

And different charge time and MP cost, which for me is sufficient if just for simplicities sake.  

QuoteTier 1 is mass AoE and vert, low damage, approximately that of the old Tier 1.

Tier 2 is CT 0, single target, moderate damage.

Tier 3 is cross AoE, highest damage, but with old tier 1 vert and longest cast time. Possibly give it the raw power of the old tier 4 to compensate it competing with an instant-cast Spell.

2 AoE is the specialty/liability of the summoner.  Reducing the elementals to their single target instant + 2 ranks to make room for another rank of Toad and Flare simply doesn't seem worth it.  

QuoteAs for Return 2, maybe make it single-target only or cross AoE for moderate MP? I figured it would need some debuffing because the initial AoE is monstrous IIRC.

Gravi 2 would be cool as a single-target spell as well. Bosses would be immune to it anyway, so it'd end up being a late game, heavily costed wall-breaker during generic fights I think.

Actually, I'm tempted to just axe Return 2.  Its just way too cheap on boss fights when you can have two casters (with staggered speeds, mind) just spamming that onto the boss, who then gets locked down completely while the other 3 party members just mercilessly wail into him.  Gravi 2 however can be introduced by proxy by modifying Demi 1/2 to have the first with an AoE but weaker effect while the second is a single-target with a stronger health portion.

QuoteDoes this mean the first battle at Gariland Magic City may have something besides Squires and a Chemist in it as well, or will you not be touching that?

 :mrgreen: One step ahead of you, friend.

Quoteabout Quake/Tornado/Melt: I just realized they're all the same spell with different elements. Do we do something about this or kinda leave them in their Black Magic-style of being mirrored elements of the same thing?

See below.

QuoteTornado could get an Earthslash effect, but stronger and Wind elemental, Melt could be high, concentrated damage, and Quake could be moderate, massive AoE damage.

That too is a thought, and they can mirror the summon magic scheme of 5 spaces linear (tornado), 3 spaces tri-attack (quake), and 2 AoE blast (melt).  But then I'll need to juggle around some damage numbers so the output isn't identical to summon.  Because summon magic is currently at levels 1.5 and 2.5 relative to 1/2/3 found in black magic... so they'll probably be as strong and black magic 2's but have a different status affect attached to them.

Speaking of summon magic, its CT0 ability will replace *drumroll* Silf!  So goodbye AoE silence, and hello a single-target Don't Move and Poison effect with independent chance of occurrence.  

QuoteHaving effectless attacking weapons just seems kinda boring, honestly, and was my biggest beef with Ninja Swords in vanilla (and 1.3 a lot) by a mile. Weapons in large part having effects just seems like the next step for ASM'D, since it allows for more strategy and uniqueness and such beyond "highest WP stat! rawr damage!"

Using Swords (I like swords~) as an example, as nice as Sleep/Ancient Swords were, I still ditched them as soon as stronger swords became available, status procs or not.  Lit and Ice bows were quite similar.  Sure, it's a little bit of welcome flair, so I will likely revert xbow changes for poison and blind, and maybe introduce another one with some sort of effect, but in terms of net effect I still went "rawr".  And then in late/end-game when I would swap between Ice Brand and Rune Blade pending setup.  

However, my current plan is to expand the later-game weapons/armors to be more viable at end game.  1.3 Robes did a pretty good job with this;  everything through wizard was viable at late game and DD -- linen and silk still sucked, by a large margin, but having a pool to pick from is a very welcome notion.  I actually think Ninja Swords were done well too, with the most viable ones being 2x Sasuke, Iga/Koga, or 2x Spell Edge for the DA proc, but some weapon classes really need some loving for the lower WPs.  

Also, more random notes:

Ninjas and Monks are reverting back to their innates, due to hardcoding preventing said innates from being equipped otherwise.  So ninja will be eating a massive PA nerf, but I think Monk is pretty much going to stay the same... they only get absurd at level 99, and I'd rather them be broken at 99 than frail and useless for 66% of the game.  

Edit:  You asked something about a patch with default storyline which ignores my lack of sense of humor but features everything else?  Indeed.  They'll be released concurrently.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 15, 2010, 02:43:08 am
Quote from: "Sephirot24"*walls of text crumble over Seph*

h-- hello! - *huff* -- welcome back Raven!! ^^

There's a million things that can be done with this patch, so I though it'd be better to change only some at a time.. to avoid overloading Phil :)

You're back too, huh?  Sweet.

I'm mostly just trying to get every worthwhile idea I can think of out there whilst I still remember them, since many can be decided on pretty quickly between what can be done and what has oversights / etc.

Quote from: "philsov"movement consolidation/modification is not possible at this time.

...Well there goes my suggestion of taking an empty movement slot (Silent Walk did nothing, IIRC) and making it grant Always: Transparent.

Quote from: "philsov"And different charge time and MP cost, which for me is sufficient if just for simplicities sake.

I suppose, since it really doesn't get truly outdated in non-boss fights until somewhere around Chapter 2.

Quote from: "philsov"2 AoE is the specialty/liability of the summoner.  Reducing the elementals to their single target instant + 2 ranks to make room for another rank of Toad and Flare simply doesn't seem worth it.

It just seems silly to have Tier 2 Black Magic be standard then have an instant-cast Tier of roughly the same power and in the same 3 elements.  *shrug*.

I also proposed just taking Toad 2 (and Sleep 2) and merging them with their lower halves / bombing them, since I checked them over and the differences all seem to be success percents, vert tol, charge time.  AoE and effects are exactly the same, and since they're non-damaging spells... yeah.  At least there's a noteworthy difference between Flare and Flare 2 beyond that.

...It'd be really fucking cool if there were animations available to make a fourth set of Black Magicks, so it'd be 4 Tiers of 3 instead of 3 Tiers of 4.  Alas.  Though if the animations exist to accommodate it, 3 Tiers of each primary element + 2 Tiers of Flare + Poison + Toad  + 2 new spells utilizing underused elements or doing something else that Black Magic as a whole could benefit from could be pretty awesome.

I had an odd thought today, though:  Is it possible to give a Spell the AoE of a harp and have it hit all relevant spaces (so everything 3 away, but not the stuff in between)?  That could make a cool Fire spell, or maybe a good AoE for Melt.

Quote from: "philsov"Actually, I'm tempted to just axe Return 2.  Its just way too cheap on boss fights when you can have two casters (with staggered speeds, mind) just spamming that onto the boss, who then gets locked down completely while the other 3 party members just mercilessly wail into him.  Gravi 2 however can be introduced by proxy by modifying Demi 1/2 to have the first with an AoE but weaker effect while the second is a single-target with a stronger health portion.

I forgot about that with Return 2.  Boom, goodbye Return 2, hello new ability?

That could work for Demi series, I suppose.  I was just thinking a third Demi Tier spell would be cool since my previous Black Magic / White Magic suggestion had the basic elements + Cure at 3 tiers as well.

Quote from: "philsov":mrgreen: One step ahead of you, friend.

I'm guessing they won't have any Knights unless you really do some major editing to the script there... but that battle with some magic being flung around could get interesting.  Magic City Gariland really has a cool terrain design, thinking on it.

Quote from: "philsov"That too is a thought, and they can mirror the summon magic scheme of 5 spaces linear (tornado), 3 spaces tri-attack (quake), and 2 AoE blast (melt).  But then I'll need to juggle around some damage numbers so the output isn't identical to summon.  Because summon magic is currently at levels 1.5 and 2.5 relative to 1/2/3 found in black magic... so they'll probably be as strong and black magic 2's but have a different status affect attached to them.

That works.  Quake could inflict either/both Don't Move or Don't Act, theoretically.  No clue what I would expect out of Melt or Tornado given the FFT status setup, but there's probably something for them.  If Wind > Float, I would try to be devious and say have Tornado inflict Float in a form of self-augmentation, but...

...Wait a second, if Tornado is Earth Slash AoE, is there anything left that really can mimic the whole Raise 2 + Zombie thing with Float + Wind Element without a sizable bit of foresight?  I forget if there's a Wind Element Summon, and if there is you probably changed its AoE so my memory there would probably be of no use anyway.

Quote from: "philsov"Speaking of summon magic, its CT0 ability will replace *drumroll* Silf!  So goodbye AoE silence, and hello a single-target Don't Move and Poison effect with independent chance of occurrence.

Nifty.  I like.

Again I raise my previous question, though.  Are Ifrit and Salamander different in any way?  I remember an older draw up of Summons you did still having them with mirrored AoE, but I can suspect that's changed between then and now.

Quote from: "philsov"Using Swords (I like swords~) as an example, as nice as Sleep/Ancient Swords were, I still ditched them as soon as stronger swords became available, status procs or not.  Lit and Ice bows were quite similar.  Sure, it's a little bit of welcome flair, so I will likely revert xbow changes for poison and blind, and maybe introduce another one with some sort of effect, but in terms of net effect I still went "rawr".  And then in late/end-game when I would swap between Ice Brand and Rune Blade pending setup.

I think the thing with Swords though is the range and how much they scale compared to other weapons.

There are a LOT of Swords, and the fact you have to get in rather close to use them means you'll probably want things dead over statused in all cases, and low WP will almost never be worth the risk unless the unit is by itself.  Save maybe with 1.3 Nagrarock.  Sleep Sword mostly suffers from WP that's too low to scale well (9 in 1.3, IIRC) and sporting a status effect.  Ancient Sword suffered a similar issue, since Ice Brand + Rune Blade had both notably higher WP and a useful proc that wasn't canceled out by the bosses you ran into at that point in the game.  Granted, I'm not saying every weapon should be good against bosses and such, but by the time you get to Ice Brand and Rune Blade the game's pretty much beginning to go into Boss Rush! mode anyway.  I remember stealing the Sleep Sword and Ancient Sword from the Two Swords Knight in Bariaus Hill in 1.3 and the Blood Sword from Gafgarion, and didn't toss them until getting the pair of Ice Brands off the Squire in Grog Hill, since the extra WP of Diamond Sword was in no way worth how devastating the statuses were on the still-plentiful generic enemies.  It also helped I had Two Swords for the Sleep Sword + Ancient Sword or Blood Sword combo from the very same Knight's crystal, but still...

But yeah.  Crossbows don't scale as rapidly, so the statuses shouldn't be as badly beaten out by WP.  Also, IIRC, stuff like Poison / Blind aren't given as many immunities compared to higher statuses like Don't Act / etc and are better due to ASM'D's movement / evasion nuances, so that combined with the fact the Archer doesn't need to get entirely into harm's way to start applying them with a hail of arrows means they can take the time to merely disable key targets instead of being forced to always rain down the apocalypse or die trying.  As for additional procs, you could have something like a Tranquilizer Bow(-Gun, of course) that inflicts Don't Move, which is rather useful when applied from a range.  Then again, "Tranquilizer" sounds like it should be applying Sleep, but that'd be a bit too much I would think.

Quote from: "philsov"However, my current plan is to expand the later-game weapons/armors to be more viable at end game.  1.3 Robes did a pretty good job with this;  everything through wizard was viable at late game and DD -- linen and silk still sucked, by a large margin, but having a pool to pick from is a very welcome notion.  I actually think Ninja Swords were done well too, with the most viable ones being 2x Sasuke, Iga/Koga, or 2x Spell Edge for the DA proc, but some weapon classes really need some loving for the lower WPs.

I agree with Robes.  They tried with Swords but didn't quite pull it off.  I disagree with the Ninja Sword thing though, mostly due to how hard Sasuke / Iga / Koga Knives all are to get.  They're rare, so of course they better not suck.  I was mostly referring to just the store bought ones, where its Spell Edge (or whatever is highest WP at that point in the game) or bust in almost all cases.  Katanas have a similar issue, IIRC, but I'm not getting any ideas on exactly how to fix that atm.  You could always give them procs based on their Draw Outs, something like:

Asura Knife: Fire Elemental Damage
Kotetsu Knife: Dark Elemental Damage
Bizen Boat: MA +X
Murasame: Water Elemental Damage and/or some sort of proc that restores HP?
Heaven's Cloud: IDFK
Kiyomori: Wind Elemental Damage and/or some sort of proc that can cast Protect and/or Shell on the user (if possible)?
Murasama: Life Drain, possibly Dark Elemental Damage(?)
Masamune + Chirijiraden: IDFK.

Yeah, random thought, no idea really, it'd just be nice to see Katanas that did more than hack 'n slash.  It's like the creators KNEW we'd never want to use them anyway.  Yet we probably will in ASM'D, so some perks on at least a few of them might be nice.

Pulling up the descriptions for Ninja Swords really doesn't leave much to work with.  Short Edge could be rigged to be a Higher Power, Ninja Sword version of a Dagger, Ninja Edge could (based on its description) be the high-WP proc-less weapon maybe, but the descriptions are so bland and they have nothing like Draw Out to pull additional inspiration from, so to buff them in a way that fits their "theme" is rather impossible.

Meh.

Quote from: "philsov"Ninjas and Monks are reverting back to their innates, due to hardcoding preventing said innates from being equipped otherwise.  So ninja will be eating a massive PA nerf, but I think Monk is pretty much going to stay the same... they only get absurd at level 99, and I'd rather them be broken at 99 than frail and useless for 66% of the game.

That's fine.  I love how by proxy that makes a Martial Arts Ninja even more worthless than your original plan did, btw.

Fists are subject to the Br formula at least (IIRC), and without Br modifications being permanent this shouldn't make their damage most of the game be too bad even with Two Swords unless you bring Talk Skill to intentionally Br buff.

...That Monk with Talk Skill at Golgorand Execution Site is now seeming like a relatively decent idea.  Hah.  Not that it's a problem though, since you're dedicating a bunch of turns to make that extra damage a reality anyway and low MA IIRC makes the Talk Skills very hit-or-miss.  I guess it makes Br Save a better ability now that it's been re-introduced, though, which is probably a good thing in the long run.

To be honest, I'm itching to try playtesting a version of this that implements the Fury hack once the actual patch is finished to see how different things are.  It seems like it has the potential to be ridiculously cool, and if its balanced enough you could pull another "why not?" and make it part of the main patch.

Quote from: "philsov"Edit:  You asked something about a patch with default storyline which ignores my lack of sense of humor but features everything else?  Indeed.  They'll be released concurrently.

Cool.  Asmo and the other people who dislike the idea of spoofing but like the balancing should be rather pleased.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 15, 2010, 04:22:09 am
How about make the Katanas proc their respective Draw Outs? At least, for the offensive drawouts?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 15, 2010, 05:00:32 am
Quote from: "Dokurider"How about make the Katanas proc their respective Draw Outs? At least, for the offensive drawouts?

I was thinking that, but in the end it seemed even less original, and nothing I suggested was really all that mind blowing.

Then again, each Draw Out in ASM'D does have its own AoE now, so different ones getting proc'd would be worth different amounts of strategic value even if they're all (in ASM'D, IIRC) straight non-elemental damage (for the offensive ones).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 16, 2010, 01:04:59 pm
QuoteI had an odd thought today, though: Is it possible to give a Spell the AoE of a harp and have it hit all relevant spaces (so everything 3 away, but not the stuff in between)? That could make a cool Fire spell, or maybe a good AoE for Melt.

Nah, abilities can't be set to a minimum range :)  Only 1 or 0 AoE for the demi family.  Was planning like 30% from Demi with 1 AoE and then like 60-70% from Demi2 with 0 AoE.  

QuoteAgain I raise my previous question, though. Are Ifrit and Salamander different in any way? I remember an older draw up of Summons you did still having them with mirrored AoE, but I can suspect that's changed between then and now.

Different strengths/CTR/MP cost.  It's like Fire2 to Fire3.  So... not much new on that front.  And with Melt doing the same thing it'd be a fun little quirk of fire magic to all be similar in these regards.  

QuoteThat works. Quake could inflict either/both Don't Move or Don't Act, theoretically. No clue what I would expect out of Melt or Tornado given the FFT status setup, but there's probably something for them. If Wind > Float, I would try to be devious and say have Tornado inflict Float in a form of self-augmentation, but...

...Wait a second, if Tornado is Earth Slash AoE, is there anything left that really can mimic the whole Raise 2 + Zombie thing with Float + Wind Element without a sizable bit of foresight? I forget if there's a Wind Element Summon, and if there is you probably changed its AoE so my memory there would probably be of no use anyway.

Tornado doing Float and Melt doing Oil (25% each, mind) would be rather crafty when coupled with the ASM.  Dunno, I need to weigh if turning float more into an enemy debuff over an ally buff is a worthwhile move.  They'd both need to gain durations as well.

QuoteKatanas pewpewpew

Every single one of them doing something special and unique is simply overkill.  What I'd like to see happen is either some sort of blanket proc or follow the scheme of swords/long bows and have about half of them be/do something nifty and cool.  Perhaps give them the 1.3 axe decipitate effect?  Seems rather fitting.  And then on the end-game interchangeable front I can make one be a stat booster while a stronger one is just straight WP.  I don't think there's room for three interchangeable weapons when there's a standard proc for the weapon class.  

Offensive DO proccing is another thought, but how to bring the two defensive ones into the fold?  Life Drain for Murasame and Dispel for Kiyomori?  fyi weapon procs are for that single target only.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 16, 2010, 02:45:35 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Nah, abilities can't be set to a minimum range :)  Only 1 or 0 AoE for the demi family.  Was planning like 30% from Demi with 1 AoE and then like 60-70% from Demi2 with 0 AoE.

Sure.

Quote from: "philsov"Different strengths/CTR/MP cost.  It's like Fire2 to Fire3.  So... not much new on that front.  And with Melt doing the same thing it'd be a fun little quirk of fire magic to all be similar in these regards.

"So Fire, what do you do for a living?"

"I move in a highly predictable pattern and make things burn!  I can also bake cookies."  :D

Quote from: "philsov"Tornado doing Float and Melt doing Oil (25% each, mind) would be rather crafty when coupled with the ASM.  Dunno, I need to weigh if turning float more into an enemy debuff over an ally buff is a worthwhile move.  They'd both need to gain durations as well.

Wind really wouldn't be a debuff until Tornado's available, though, and Oil is a rare enough status to not really need a duration since if its "Spell, hit, self-augmenting status, another hit" that duration really isn't going to matter anyway in respect to those two particular spells.

Quote from: "philsov"Every single one of them doing something special and unique is simply overkill.  What I'd like to see happen is either some sort of blanket proc or follow the scheme of swords/long bows and have about half of them be/do something nifty and cool.  Perhaps give them the 1.3 axe decipitate effect?  Seems rather fitting.  And then on the end-game interchangeable front I can make one be a stat booster while a stronger one is just straight WP.  I don't think there's room for three interchangeable weapons when there's a standard proc for the weapon class.  

Offensive DO proccing is another thought, but how to bring the two defensive ones into the fold?  Life Drain for Murasame and Dispel for Kiyomori?  fyi weapon procs are for that single target only.

I know all of them having procs is overkill, I was just merely thinking out loud so some could be picked and chosen from the ones that were any good.

The Axe proc was removed in ASM'D if you're offering it to Katanas, I'm assuming?  That could be a cool blanket-proc, I suppose.  Would a proc like that require they not be Two Swords-able, though?  I remember it being a rather powerful damage proc from what little I used of 1.3 Axes.

Single-target Draw Out procs could work too, though that almost seems too easy.  Life Drain and Dispel for the defensive ones work... though that really leaves us with the question of Masamume... I'd say make it inflict Stop, but that could be silly.  Then again, it's a legendary weapon with an awesome Draw Out so it'd need some big proc / WP to be worth equipping.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 16, 2010, 03:18:24 pm
Life Drain Proc, now that's just bad ass for some reason.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 16, 2010, 04:51:01 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"Life Drain Proc, now that's just bad ass for some reason.

I agree, despite liking the idea of a blanket proc and then special properties for some.  


Random other thoughts I've been mulling over:

Charge skillset.  I'm pretty sure you haven't brought it up all thread, so I'm assuming it can't be edited for some reason.  If it can be, why aren't we?  It really does seem to fit into the whole category of "break the damn monotony" that ASM'D has had going on.  A lot of space has been cut out between consolidating Bio and whatnot, so I'd think at least that some of the Charges could be removed (aka, the ones really not worth using) and replaced with something else / custom.

...Possibly giving some of the removed ones to Mustadio's Snipe skillset.  :D  Lol, I love how Mustadio's skillset becomes the receiver of every random basic skill that gets replaced.  That does seem like the best way to handle his skillset, though, a custom ability or two and then hobbled stuff from things like the vanilla Knight and otherwise unusable Charges.

On an odd note, Gafgarion.  Incredibly linear class / battles.  He's nothing but "Hahaha I have a bunch of status immunities and consistent ranged healing / damage backed by innate Concentrate!" with his Secondary ability really being the only thing that breaks the monotony... assuming he even uses it.  Is it worth expanding his skillset in some way or is this a case where it may be best to say "eh, screw it"?  I'm half-expecting you to nerf Night Sword range anyway due to ASM'D being ASM'D, so giving him more abilities might be a good idea regardless.  I'd say have one of them be a non-boss / Monster Skill exclusive Blue Magic like Dark Holy or something, but eh.  My exact idea well is pretty low right now.   ...Outside the fact I just saw him Drawing Out a Blood Sword in my head for some reason.  Heh.

Speaking of Blue Magic, I think the Spell Book contains a slight mis-naming, unless you're making new abilities up on me. I also thought Aqua Soul was in there, wasn't it?  I'm guessing finding a way to balance it out was proving too difficult, based on my experiences with high-damaging Skeletons last night with Thunder Soul.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 16, 2010, 08:09:03 pm
Charge has to be a dedicated skillset. It's impossible for it to be with a noncharge action set skill. Also, it's skillset needs to be dedicated to Charge. Basically, charge is charge. You can change the skillset to include new skills, though.

Bottomline: Mustadio can't get charge without getting rid of everything else, Archer can get new skills.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 16, 2010, 08:44:45 pm
Quote from: "Zaen"Charge has to be a dedicated skillset. It's impossible for it to be with a noncharge action set skill. Also, it's skillset needs to be dedicated to Charge. Basically, charge is charge. You can change the skillset to include new skills, though.

Bottomline: Mustadio can't get charge without getting rid of everything else, Archer can get new skills.

That's... painful.

Cruel one way street is a cruel one way street.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 16, 2010, 09:22:31 pm
Well, we can at least GIVE Archers completely different abilities without their class acting up like a jackass like Chemists--damned Chemists--so it's not like it's impossible to make a pseudo-Charge if you really wanted to. It's just that it couldn't be at all flexible and might make the damage rather independent of the weapon type you're using since you get rid of the K value; oh, and Short Charge may effect it, though that probably wouldn't be game-breaking.

With regards to Oil and Float, IIRC when I was testing things out last year before I disappeared, I believe I tried to make Oil finite and...it didn't take. I should probably test it again considering my Bombs have an Oil-inducing Flame Attack, but I think that I am remembering somewhat correctly.

As for Float becoming a type of debuff, well, I'm pretty sure your patch is going to have a lot less Wind attacks than mine/not many more weapon attacks than normal and since Float gives you immunity to Ground, I don't see it being completely broken. (As long as you made it so that Hashy didn't automatically rape your face simply because you're Floating or got covered Oil.) Some consideration would also need to be given to Time Mage movement Float, which I think is actually somewhat more useful than people think it is. (It's just horribly overshadowed by broken Teleport.)

With regards to Masamune, you could make it proc Choco Meteor for a lulzy reference to everyone's favorite (read: vastly overrated) silver-haired psycho pretty-boy who used a sword of the same name. Otherwise, I've got nothing since I'm probably just going to get rid of Katana in my patch.

With regards to Dark Knight, I have to agree with Raven that Gafgarion is kind of boring. That said, I've more a problem with Innate Concentrate and the fact that he absorbs as much HP as he hits you for rather than like half of it (which I don't think we can fix...without ASM hacking--wink) than him being boring. Sometimes the Guile model just works (except in SF4, where you nerf Guile SO HORD the next Guile player feels it).

Still, it's not like there aren't ideas for additional Dark Knight classes, especially since I'm pretty sure Dark Knight can easily take more abilities. I haven't played the PSP version of FFT, but I know that there's a Dark Knight class in that and I think we can probably mimic everything but that conical attack. There's also Dark Knights in other FF games, so it's not like there's a lack of inspiration if you're so inclined.

Raven has pretty much covered everything else. Nice to see someone that types more than me and generally has less typos.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 16, 2010, 09:26:07 pm
The worse part is charge is kind of stuck there considering there's not much you can do with archers unless you make them magical... And then it's like a ranged Rafa, if you wanna go raining elemental arrows. But then there's not even room for new skills unless you slash a good number. Then you have less room for monster skills and such.

Best to just lower the number of charges, make them slightly less powerful, and lower CT. Then they're at least useful in-class. Especially if bows get a WP boost, or archers get more PA.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 16, 2010, 09:38:02 pm
Yeah, as much as I like Archer (I plan on pretty much using the class for the majority of my current 1.3 playthrough if I can), they have multiple drawbacks the further on the game gets between their linear abilities that make movement sometimes impossible for them if they want damage, Arrow Guard at least halving their accuracy even if they have the brokenness that is Concentrate (which is kind of ironic since both abilities come from Archer), Two Swords being better with Charge (but that's because Two Swords itself is largely broken or, at least, overpowered), guns becoming available (more of a problem with magical guns than anything else), being height dependent when you often start at the bottom of the map and having to take really awkward and/or clumped up positions.

Oh, and there's also the really minor issue of having the accuracy reduced at night if you don't have Concentrate equipped, but that pops up so infrequently that it's hardly worth mentioning.

That said, there quite a few just outright redundant skills that you could cannibalize to give Archer a completely different set (and it would definitely work if you gave Archer was the only one that you were giving a lot of abilities). Off top of my head I know that you can use one of the Seals, two of the Small Bombs, the Panther's Blood Suck (since Elmdor is the one with "Must Live as a Vampire!"), one of the Fire Bracelets, one of the Ice Bracelet, one of the Thunder Bracelets, maybe one of the Tentacles (I keep needing to test to see if there's a difference between the Squid and the Morbol graphically; I don't think there is though) and probably some crappier abilities that no one uses like Steal Exp and Negotiate to make up a new skill set.

It's too bad that I don't think we can get replicate Faster (in both terms of the ability and in speed) without ASM (wink) since that was one of the few good things about FFTA.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 16, 2010, 10:45:53 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Well, we can at least GIVE Archers completely different abilities without their class acting up like a jackass like Chemists--damned Chemists--

Well, Philsov did mess with the effects of the non-Remedy, non-Holy Water healing items to make them do odd things like Slow + Protect, though the options were kind of limited IIRC.

With regards to Oil and Float, IIRC when I was testing things out last year before I disappeared, I believe I tried to make Oil finite and...it didn't take. I should probably test it again considering my Bombs have an Oil-inducing Flame Attack, but I think that I am remembering somewhat correctly.

Quote from: "The Damned"Some consideration would also need to be given to Time Mage movement Float, which I think is actually somewhat more useful than people think it is. (It's just horribly overshadowed by broken Teleport.)

It's a good thing that Teleport will only exist on enemy boss units in ASM'D then, as far as I remember.  The ability to Float over water and such is better in ASM'D as well, since your average movement is going to be 2-3 squares per turn and cutting over that river will save eons of time in ways that sometimes even Fly won't be able to match perfectly.

Quote from: "The Damned"With regards to Dark Knight, I have to agree with Raven that Gafgarion is kind of boring. That said, I've more a problem with Innate Concentrate and the fact that he absorbs as much HP as he hits you for rather than like half of it (which I don't think we can fix...without ASM hacking--wink) than him being boring. Sometimes the Guile model just works (except in SF4, where you nerf Guile SO HORD the next Guile player feels it).

I don't find the straight damage : HP thing to be an issue since the 1.3 carryover changes make Swordskills evadable.  He's healing full but only hitting half to three quarters, so it kind of balances out.  That, and he can end up manascrewed for a turn and forced to waste a turn Dark Sword'ing for more MP.

Quote from: "The Damned"Still, it's not like there aren't ideas for additional Dark Knight classes, especially since I'm pretty sure Dark Knight can easily take more abilities. I haven't played the PSP version of FFT, but I know that there's a Dark Knight class in that and I think we can probably mimic everything but that conical attack. There's also Dark Knights in other FF games, so it's not like there's a lack of inspiration if you're so inclined.

Unholy Sacrifice from the PSP version could be a cool addition to his moveset, but Crushing Blow is really ridiculous IIRC and is like Night Sword -healing +more damage and range.  We can't replicate the cone thing, though?  That sucks.

Quote from: "The Damned"Raven has pretty much covered everything else. Nice to see someone that types more than me and generally has less typos.

Heh.  People usually hate me on forums because I can type not-Twitter levels of text.

Quote from: "Zaen"The worse part is charge is kind of stuck there considering there's not much you can do with archers unless you make them magical... And then it's like a ranged Rafa, if you wanna go raining elemental arrows. But then there's not even room for new skills unless you slash a good number. Then you have less room for monster skills and such.

Best to just lower the number of charges, make them slightly less powerful, and lower CT. Then they're at least useful in-class. Especially if bows get a WP boost, or archers get more PA.

Well, the Archers in ASM'D use 1.3 Archers as the baseline, so the Charge skillset and Archers themselves already start out a good bit ahead.  It's just that many Charges that are close together are useless.  I can't think of many instances where I used something that wasn't Charge 1/3/5/10/20 and had it make a game-breaking level of difference from the nearest in those five.

Considering their entire skillset can be consolidated into 6 abilities, it seems kind of wasteful to have the others since (unlike Black Magic) its not like there's a true power scaling going on... if anything, the skillset scales in reverse as you level up.

Quote from: "The Damned"That said, there quite a few just outright redundant skills that you could cannibalize to give Archer a completely different set (and it would definitely work if you gave Archer was the only one that you were giving a lot of abilities). Off top of my head I know that you can use one of the Seals, two of the Small Bombs, the Panther's Blood Suck (since Elmdor is the one with "Must Live as a Vampire!"), one of the Fire Bracelets, one of the Ice Bracelet, one of the Thunder Bracelets, maybe one of the Tentacles (I keep needing to test to see if there's a difference between the Squid and the Morbol graphically; I don't think there is though) and probably some crappier abilities that no one uses like Steal Exp and Negotiate to make up a new skill set.

...Heh.  So many redundant skills.  To think Philsov was already going to consolidate the entire Bio series into one spell set, and I was trying to get him to consolidate Sleep/Sleep2 and Toad/Toad2.   I think the two Seals are different, though (IIRC, one is straight petrify, one is damage w/ procs), and Vampire's Blood Suck has a radically different success rate from Elmdor's.  Besides that, though... it's almost depressing to see that there's at least 4 abilities (maybe 6, pending on if all the Small Bombs are actually different some way or not) that can be bastardized on top of all the others.  Such a waste of space to have so many redundant skills.

It seems like the game has plenty of room to toss Mustadio, Gafgarion, and the Archer all a few abilities each and have plenty left over for whatever Philsov is planning while barely changing anything at all before factoring his new abilities in.  That really is just outright depressing.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 17, 2010, 01:40:49 am
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"It's a good thing that Teleport will only exist on enemy boss units in ASM'D then, as far as I remember.  The ability to Float over water and such is better in ASM'D as well, since your average movement is going to be 2-3 squares per turn and cutting over that river will save eons of time in ways that sometimes even Fly won't be able to match perfectly.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that.

That's very good then, especially since it makes Float one of the few things to be able to take advantage of Depth 2 water. Very good.

QuoteI don't find the straight damage : HP thing to be an issue since the 1.3 carryover changes make Swordskills evadable.  He's healing full but only hitting half to three quarters, so it kind of balances out.  That, and he can end up manascrewed for a turn and forced to waste a turn Dark Sword'ing for more MP.

Oh, so he won't have Innate Concentrate like he has in 1.3? That's a good start, then. Still, I'd personally for him to not absorb as much HP just because it makes the Lionel ambush kind of stupid.

QuoteUnholy Sacrifice from the PSP version could be a cool addition to his moveset, but Crushing Blow is really ridiculous IIRC and is like Night Sword -healing +more damage and range.  We can't replicate the cone thing, though?  That sucks.

I wasn't aware of Crushing blow.

We definitely can't replicate the cone thing since it's hardcoded. I'm pretty sure it would probably be one of the harder ASMs even though I don't know exactly what the attack looks like.

That said, there is perhaps a potential problem with giving Gafgarion more Dark Knight-esque moves from other games. A lot of those techniques (such as Dark Wave) tend to hit the user for a bit of damage as well, and the only formula's that work like that are the Workers' formulas, which don't except Status. (Outside of maybe Compress's slot since they can add Dead.) I don't think those formulas take elemental attributes either, but that I'm not sure of.

QuoteHeh.  People usually hate me on forums because I can type not-Twitter levels of text.

Ugh. Please don't get me started on Twitter.

Quote...Heh.  So many redundant skills.  To think Philsov was already going to consolidate the entire Bio series into one spell set, and I was trying to get him to consolidate Sleep/Sleep2 and Toad/Toad2.   I think the two Seals are different, though (IIRC, one is straight petrify, one is damage w/ procs), and Vampire's Blood Suck has a radically different success rate from Elmdor's.  Besides that, though... it's almost depressing to see that there's at least 4 abilities (maybe 6, pending on if all the Small Bombs are actually different some way or not) that can be bastardized on top of all the others.  Such a waste of space to have so many redundant skills.

It seems like the game has plenty of room to toss Mustadio, Gafgarion, and the Archer all a few abilities each and have plenty left over for whatever Philsov is planning while barely changing anything at all before factoring his new abilities in.  That really is just outright depressing.

Yeah, it really is. If I remember correctly from my tests with On the Skulls of Dragons, there's at least 20 outright redundant abilities.

That Seal difference that you're talking about is something that Voldemort did. The only difference in the Seals that exist in vanilla is that the Assassin Seal is unusable because its marked wrong for the AI and it has a different animation (Sunken State, which makes no sense); otherwise it was just supposed to be 100% Petrify like the Zodiac's Seal.

Similarly, there's the only real difference between Elmdor's Blood Suck and Panther's Blood Suck is that Elmdor has the "Must Live as a Vampire!" sign hardcoded into it. The reason for the really different hit rate is because they use different Inflict Statuses (something that I finally noted in the Wiki over the weekend since apparently no one had done in the year that I've been gone); Elmdor's use All or Nothing Blood Suck, which is 100% Blood Suck, where as the Panther uses Separate Blood Suck, which is 25% Blood Suck even when the formula says it can hit at 100% like the formula they both use does.

(I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this correctly, but I'm currently going off memory since FFTPatcher isn't opened and I'm kind of in the middle of something else.)

The only difference between all three Small Bombs is graphics that are supposed to match up to the type of Bomb using them; I just decided to go with red personally and say "let's do something new" with the other two.

I can't believe I forgot Bio since I also consolidated them. Yeah, those definitely should be consolidated. 10 abilities become 3, saving you 7 spaces. Geez.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 17, 2010, 02:11:04 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Oh, so he won't have Innate Concentrate like he has in 1.3? That's a good start, then. Still, I'd personally for him to not absorb as much HP just because it makes the Lionel ambush kind of stupid.

I can't believe I said that in reply to him having innate Concentrate and somehow forgot innate Concentrate canceled that out.

Fuck, I'm stupid.

Eh, the lowered move rates combined with what I'm again guessing is a likely range nerf on Night Sword (though Phil may not, we've not really discussed Dark Knight until about now, I'm just hypothesizing based on precedent) means it should be more bearable.

It does make the ambush kind of stupid either way, but not drastically so.  It's still at least plenty doable, especially since the 1.3 base means you can try manascrewing him and positioning so you can get in close before he can Dark Sword, etc.
   
Quote from: "The Damned"That said, there is perhaps a potential problem with giving Gafgarion more Dark Knight-esque moves from other games. A lot of those techniques (such as Dark Wave) tend to hit the user for a bit of damage as well, and the only formula's that work like that are the Workers' formulas, which don't except Status. (Outside of maybe Compress's slot since they can add Dead.) I don't think those formulas take elemental attributes either, but that I'm not sure of.

Well, I know Eternal's patch has Gafgarion using a bunch of moves that hit himself for HP damage as well.  So it must be possible to some degree.  It'd also further justify Night Sword doing full HP heal, since it compensates for his other techniques.

Either way, there's no reason his techs would need to be directly based on previous Dark Knight skills anyway.  They could just be kind of inspired by.

Quote from: "The Damned"Yeah, it really is. If I remember correctly from my tests with On the Skulls of Dragons, there's at least 20 outright redundant abilities.

...Wow.  Just, wow.

Could you give a full list, if you can remember them?  I think it'd make everyone's life easier since there'd be a known limit as to how many abilities Philsov can cram in before actually needing to off things.

Quote from: "The Damned"That Seal difference that you're talking about is something that Voldemort did. The only difference in the Seals that exist in vanilla is that the Assassin Seal is unusable because its marked wrong for the AI and it has a different animation (Sunken State, which makes no sense); otherwise it was just supposed to be 100% Petrify like the Zodiac's Seal.

Ah.  To be honest I kind of like Voldemort's version a bit better.  Maybe offing the 100% Petrify version would be worthwhile since it does seem kind of silly since its pretty much instant kill plus.

Quote from: "The Damned"Similarly, there's the only real difference between Elmdor's Blood Suck and Panther's Blood Suck is that Elmdor has the "Must Live as a Vampire!" sign hardcoded into it. The reason for the really different hit rate is because they use different Inflict Statuses (something that I finally noted in the Wiki over the weekend since apparently no one had done in the year that I've been gone); Elmdor's use All or Nothing Blood Suck, which is 100% Blood Suck, where as the Panther uses Separate Blood Suck, which is 25% Blood Suck even when the formula says it can hit at 100% like the formula they both use does.

I'm getting the odd feeling a Vampire Cat with 100% Blood Suck would be broke though, and making Elmdor's go down to 25% seems not really worth it.  It seems like this is one case where it might be worth keeping the difference.

Quote from: "The Damned"The only difference between all three Small Bombs is graphics that are supposed to match up to the type of Bomb using them; I just decided to go with red personally and say "let's do something new" with the other two.

Philsov's using a 1.3 base, so I'm pretty sure Small Bomb in this patch is pretty much a giant AoE explosion in the vein of Fire 4, unless he's edited it.  Even if he did change it back or re-edit it, I agree with your take.  No reason for 3 unless he's using the vanilla version of it.

Quote from: "The Damned"I can't believe I forgot Bio since I also consolidated them. Yeah, those definitely should be consolidated. 10 abilities become 3, saving you 7 spaces. Geez.

Yeah, lol.  It's ridiculously stupid.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 17, 2010, 08:38:41 am
(Aside: Lol. The forum server crapped out right as I tried to post this. Thankfully I didn't have to redo my post in its entirety.)

With regards to a full list, I'm a bit annoyed to describe that apparently I didn't bother to make a list in the lengthy Word document I had made regarding my testing. I think I pretty much listed everything already for the most part, but that's obviously not including things that I feel are extremely similar or could be benefited by either making them differing or getting rid of one of them. I'll try not to include those in the list:


I think I got all of them, but that's already 16 (17 if you count Death Sentence and 19 if you get rid of the other Shock and the other Death Sentence) and that's not even counting stuff that's still extremely similar (Monk's "Spin Fist" is basically the exact same thing as Goblin's "Turn Punch" minus the fact that Spin Fist has no Vertical), stuff that is somewhat monotonous to the point almost being redundant in use like Black Magic, stuff that's just generally useless like Negotiate and stuff that's generally broken like Yell or Cheer Song or Slow Dance.

So...yeah. There's spaces. Not enough to give all classes 16 abilities (unfortunately, since that was what I was trying with OtSoD), at least with us still being unable to affect Math Skill or Items or Charge or Jump or Throw (being able to change this would gives us 54 more slots, but alas). Even by using the blank spaces I fell short.

(Well, the ones that can be used, which I think are seven in total. The one at the very beginning/top is Attack, and I believe other blanks one are actually used. IIRC, one of them is for the demon summoning that Zodiacs like Velius and Altima do at the beginning of the fight.)

So...yeah.

FFH WHERE ALL YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE!
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 17, 2010, 03:36:46 pm
So...

-1 Seal (favoring the custom one from 1.3)
-2 Small Bombs
-1 Tentacle
-1 Fire Bracelet  (favoring whichever better fits the average damage output in this patch)
-1 Thunder Bracelet  (above)
-1 Ice Bracelet  (above)
-1 Shock
-1 Death Sentence (favoring the Ahriman's... though I think he already did this.)
-1 Cheer Song
-1 Slow Dance
(Yell was modified to just be Haste in 1.3)
Consolidate Bio-a : Bio-b : Bio-c
Consolidate Bio 2-a : Bio 2-b : Bio 2-c : Bio 2-d
Consolidate Bio 3-a : Bio 3-b : Bio 3-c
Consolidate Spin Fist : Turn Fist (favoring Turn Fist, imo)
Consolidate Sleep : Sleep 2
Consolidate Toad : Toad 2
Consolidate Blind : Blind 2
+2 for overlooked consolidations (something I likely did, to the point this number is probably too small)
+7 free spaces

...31 ability slots.  Heh.  For someone like me whose only looking for every class to have a useful ability set (which shouldn't take more than 12 per class, IMO) and ASM'D using non-custom Blue Magics over Math Skill (essentially making the fact it can't be edited null), I think 31 slots should be plenty to fluff the crappier skillsets up to usability and still have more than enough to give bosses and whatnot a few more unique skills.  Philsov's not above editing truly useless skills (or busted ones) directly (Gil Taking -> Muddle) either, so dead weight can/will likely also be cut that way, I'm sure.

He's already using some of these (Mediator has both 1.3 skills and vanilla skills), but a bit of finesse should leave more than enough room for new skills... assuming Philsov wants to put the work in.  =p

MY DREAMS ARE SLOWING COMING TO FRUITION, THANK YOU FFH.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 17, 2010, 07:41:18 pm
You can consolidate a lot more than that; just from a vanilla patch:

-1 Seal
-1 Blood Suck
-2 Small Bomb
-12 Monster Base Generics (16 monster classes, all of them use the same damage formula, one attack suffices for them all; the animation is always correct, the only thing glitchy will be the sound...only exceptions will be triple attack, throw spirit, leaf dance, and whatever move you keep to mimic across monsters)
-3 Elemental Breath
-1 Shock
-2 Bio
-3 Bio2
-2 Bio3
-15 Free Spaces (since replacing Teleport Send/Arrive will not actually glitch the game)
That's 42 right there.

Some more controversial ones:
TK/Oracle (+14+7 if you include Blind 2, Confuse 2, Lose Voice, Darkness, Despair 2, Hold Tight, and Threaten)
AK/Knight Stat Breaks (+4+2 if you include Circle and Beaking)
No Speed Boosts (+3)
No Invite/Steal Gil/Steal EXP (+5)
DS (+1)
Level Up/Down (+2)
Turn Punch/Spin Fist (+1)
No Stat Boosts (+4)
Cheer Up/Praise (+1)
Frog/Toad 2 (+1)
Death Cold/Slow (+1)
Don't Move/Chicken Race (+1)
Redundant Work Skillset (+3)
Loss/Stop (+1)
Allure/Charm (+1--though this is if you really want to restrict charm)
Wish/Energy (+1)
That's 53 more for a total of 95.  Of course, 1.3 had its own uses for some of the above, so this number's too high, but you should get the picture.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 17, 2010, 07:54:04 pm
It may be the fact that I've been up for 24 hours, but I'm not understanding this bit.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"For someone like me whose only looking for every class to have a useful ability set (which shouldn't take more than 12 per class, IMO) and ASM'D using non-custom Blue Magics over Math Skill (essentially making the fact it can't be edited null)....

What do you mean by non-custom Blue Magics? If they're non-custom, why wouldn't you just use the ones already in the monster slots?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 17, 2010, 07:58:47 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"It may be the fact that I've been up for 24 hours, but I'm not understanding this bit.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"For someone like me whose only looking for every class to have a useful ability set (which shouldn't take more than 12 per class, IMO) and ASM'D using non-custom Blue Magics over Math Skill (essentially making the fact it can't be edited null)....

What do you mean by non-custom Blue Magics? If they're non-custom, why wouldn't you just use the ones already in the monster slots?

...That's exactly what I said.

Math Skill is replaced by an ability set that already uses all existing abilities, so the fact its space can't be used doesn't mean much even if it does mean we're down 10 or so custom abilities, since we're not down the additional 10-16 skills that will be Blue Magics.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 17, 2010, 08:05:08 pm
Oh. I thought you had meant that you were some how able to ASM'd hack Math Skill and replaced it just with monster skills; I'd literally kill to be able to change those spaces, so I was confused to say the least.

What you're talking about is basically just making Calculator into Blue Mage by replacing all of Math Skill, correct?

(Since this is somewhat off-topic, I will now attempt to remain topical: Seriously, Masamune having the change to cast Choco Meteor [or even Meteor] would be lulzy and you know want it, Mr. Spoof Text patch.)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 17, 2010, 08:20:35 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Oh. I thought you had meant that you were some how able to ASM'd hack Math Skill and replaced it just with monster skills; I'd literally kill to be able to change those spaces, so I was confused to say the least.

What you're talking about is basically just making Calculator into Blue Mage by replacing all of Math Skill, correct?

Lol, yeah.  The same way 1.3 made Calculators into Sages.  It'd be cool if Philsov does a spriteswap with a Blue Mage sprite (I'm sure there's more than one lying around), but I doubt he cares that much.  Or at least he hasn't let on he does yet.

Quote from: "The Damned"(Since this is somewhat off-topic, I will now attempt to remain topical: Seriously, Masamune having the change to cast Choco Meteor [or even Meteor] would be lulzy and you know want it, Mr. Spoof Text patch.)

Masamune proc'ing Meteor... too bad it'd be a single-target Meteor (lolwut?), because I'd love to see Elmdor walk up, swing, proc Meteor, and kill himself along with the player's entire party.

Best.  Fight.  Ever.

Choco Meteor would be lulzy, though.  If only because you're equating Sephiroth with a meteor that falls down and goes "Ding!"



EDIT:

I remember a long time ago there was talk about being able to remove Guests from the formation screen (and instead have them spawn in during each relevant battle) and instead allocate the 4(?) spots Guests had to the player for more units.

Is this possible?  If it's possible, is it possible to add more Worker 8 and Byblos-style monsters to the game without overwriting either of those / Holy Dragon Reis?  If the answer to both is yes, I think I just had an epic idea.



Also, has Golem been edited in any way?  If not, should it be edited so it can't be used to cheese the AI?  Maybe it's just me, but I can't stand abilities that straight-up allow AI cheesing like that.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 18, 2010, 01:11:55 pm
Holy piggy-backed text wall.  

QuoteThe Axe proc was removed in ASM'D if you're offering it to Katanas, I'm assuming?

Yes.  With the new formula Axes don't need much else, and certainly not the decapitate proc.

QuoteCharge skillset.

Is its own little island much like throw and jump and draw out and elemental.  What is possible are charge-like abilities, since the Swordskill formula -- PA * WP + K is quite similar.  Still bones the everliving crap out like 50% of the weapon types (SP/PA, PA/MA, WP*WP, etc) however.  And then they can be given new skills to boot.  But continue reading.

However, the charge abilities themselves aren't normal abilities in the first place, so I can't remove them and insert a spell into that slot.  

QuoteOn an odd note, Gafgarion.

Is due for a new skill or two, likely borrowing a formula from Worker 8 and hopefully be given AoE, effect/animation permitting.

QuoteSpeaking of Blue Magic, I think the Spell Book contains a slight mis-naming, unless you're making new abilities up on me. I also thought Aqua Soul was in there, wasn't it?

Don't think Aqua Soul was ever up there.  I may have put Drown (<3 Skip Sandwich) up for a blip or two, but I'm pretty sure that's been the list for the last week+.  But.. I'm not seeing any typos, either.  Choco Cure (chocobo), Goblin Punch (gobu), Blaster (kitty), Small Flame (bomb), Drain Touch (ghoul, melee-range MP drain), Leaf Dance (tree), Thunder Breath (dragon), Wave Around (bull), Sudden Cry (behemoth), Dark Holy (skeles), MAYBE triple-attack (tiamat), and then Bio3 plus melt/tornado/quake funsies.

QuoteAs for Float becoming a type of debuff, well, I'm pretty sure your patch is going to have a lot less Wind attacks than mine/not many more weapon attacks than normal and since Float gives you immunity to Ground

Windslash bow and tornado and... uh... think that's it :p

QuoteWith regards to Masamune, you could make it proc Choco Meteor

A-ha, forgot about that one.  Time Mage Meteor is overkill, but choco meteor is just awesome -- I just need to delve into FFTPatcher and see if the monster abilities are past the FF mark or not, since iirc only the first 256 abilities can be used as procs on weapons.  Otherwise, I'll just resort to a Comet (new TM spell) proc, which will also have the choco meteor effect.  

~

@ability listings -- those are excellent, thanks to all of you.  I'll do a tally hopefully over the weekend and we'll see what's still left to mess with and go from there for archers/musty/gaf/etc.  

QuoteI remember a long time ago there was talk about being able to remove Guests from the formation screen (and instead have them spawn in during each relevant battle) and instead allocate the 4(?) spots Guests had to the player for more units.

Is this possible? If it's possible, is it possible to add more Worker 8 and Byblos-style monsters to the game without overwriting either of those / Holy Dragon Reis? If the answer to both is yes, I think I just had an epic idea.

I don't know.  I know how to rig up guests to never be in formation, but opening up those last 4 slots for normal characters will require some forum prowling.  

As for the monsters, not that I'm aware off unless I consolidate Ultima and Archiac demon which is the only thing I'm willing to combine/lose.

QuoteGolem

Isn't easy to hack.  At this point I'd rather have Golem, exploitable, than no Golem.

QuoteBlue Mage Sprite

Most of the custom sprites to date are for (LAME~) special characters and lack the palette to be a complete generic class, coupled with the fact that I need both male and female variants.  Besides, Calcs are blue >_>.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 18, 2010, 01:29:17 pm
Do you have anything in store for Scream?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 18, 2010, 01:36:50 pm
Hadn't thought much on it -- in retrospect berserk is more of a liability than a boon.

How does 100% self haste/regen/defending sound?  Haste and Regen of course from the modified Cheer Up and Yell (dammit, need bring back old cheer up too imo, and Old wish would be kinda cool too), with the defending perk to make said action mean a little more.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 18, 2010, 02:15:09 pm
Sounds good, I like it. I would like that for the Ramza 1v1 battles...err, battle.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 18, 2010, 02:41:42 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Is its own little island much like throw and jump and draw out and elemental.  What is possible are charge-like abilities, since the Swordskill formula -- PA * WP + K is quite similar.  Still bones the everliving crap out like 50% of the weapon types (SP/PA, PA/MA, WP*WP, etc) however.  And then they can be given new skills to boot.  But continue reading.

However, the charge abilities themselves aren't normal abilities in the first place, so I can't remove them and insert a spell into that slot.

Well, like you (and others earlier in the thread) said, you can take Charge skills out of the skill set then put new ones in their place (if I'm reading the previous posts correctly in relation to Charge), but you merely can't overwrite the actual Charge skills themselves.  Cutting the unnecessary Charges and adding a couple abilities seems like it'd be highly worthwhile, even if you can't use the slots from the removed Charge abilities.

There's more pressing stuff to give abilities to (Mustadio / Gafgarion / some other guys), but Archer doing something beyond "I shoot a bow!  Now I shoot a bow STRONGER!" would be nice.

Quote from: "philsov"Is due for a new skill or two, likely borrowing a formula from Worker 8 and hopefully be given AoE, effect/animation permitting.

At least.  A Gafgarion who actually has an ability pool and lowered predictability would be a very nice change of pace.

Quote from: "philsov"Don't think Aqua Soul was ever up there.  I may have put Drown (<3 Skip Sandwich) up for a blip or two, but I'm pretty sure that's been the list for the last week+.  But.. I'm not seeing any typos, either.  Choco Cure (chocobo), Goblin Punch (gobu), Blaster (kitty), Small Flame (bomb), Drain Touch (ghoul, melee-range MP drain), Leaf Dance (tree), Thunder Breath (dragon), Wave Around (bull), Sudden Cry (behemoth), Dark Holy (skeles), MAYBE triple-attack (tiamat), and then Bio3 plus melt/tornado/quake funsies.

Eh, could've sworn I saw it.

Anywho.  Small Flame was what I was talking about.  There's a Small Bomb and a Flame Attack but no Small Flame I'm aware of, unless you're adding something to the Bomb skillset.  =p

Triple Attack could be cool, I hadn't thought of that.

Quote from: "philsov"Windslash bow and tornado and... uh... think that's it :p

Oh.  Hurricane.  But that's an enemy only skill unless you Monster Skill a 1.3 Juravis.

I don't think its worth worrying about.

Quote from: "philsov"A-ha, forgot about that one.  Time Mage Meteor is overkill, but choco meteor is just awesome -- I just need to delve into FFTPatcher and see if the monster abilities are past the FF mark or not, since iirc only the first 256 abilities can be used as procs on weapons.  Otherwise, I'll just resort to a Comet (new TM spell) proc, which will also have the choco meteor effect.

I was kind of expecting you to shoot that suggestion into the ground.

I am totally psyched and ready to steal Elmdor's shit in this patch now.

Quote from: "philsov"I don't know.  I know how to rig up guests to never be in formation, but opening up those last 4 slots for normal characters will require some forum prowling.  

As for the monsters, not that I'm aware off unless I consolidate Ultima and Archiac demon which is the only thing I'm willing to combine/lose.

The last part sucks.

I was thinking you could add some really special random battles where you run into Join After Event special monsters like a White Chocobo with Mimic or something.  That'd been a very nice touch.

Rigging Guests to never be in the Formation Screen should be done, personally.   IIRC it means you can ensure that Guests have levels equal to the party (relevant for Delita / Algus / Beowulf and possibly Rafa, mostly), and that they've got an equipment / ability loadout that's at least moderately useful for the fight at hand, which are two of the more infuriating things to deal with when you have a character whose a Guest that sticks around for half the Chapter.

Quote from: "philsov"Isn't easy to hack.  At this point I'd rather have Golem, exploitable, than no Golem.

The Damned's old patch thread (which I looked at out of curiousity when the two of us were discussing, lol) said he had heavily weakened Golem, which caused me to remember it.

Though I'd disagree with the stance entirely about exploitable > none.  Causing mages and such to never use magic is a fairly ridiculous level of exploitation.

Quote from: "philsov"Most of the custom sprites to date are for (LAME~) special characters and lack the palette to be a complete generic class, coupled with the fact that I need both male and female variants.  Besides, Calcs are blue >_>.

Heh.

I'm just sick of looking at that damn Calculator sprite.  It's so... clunky looking.

But you're right.  At least it's blue.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 18, 2010, 04:55:48 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Is due for a new skill or two, likely borrowing a formula from Worker 8 and hopefully be given AoE, effect/animation permitting.

Excellent.

Quote from: "philsov"A-ha, forgot about that one.  Time Mage Meteor is overkill, but choco meteor is just awesome -- I just need to delve into FFTPatcher and see if the monster abilities are past the FF mark or not, since iirc only the first 256 abilities can be used as procs on weapons.  Otherwise, I'll just resort to a Comet (new TM spell) proc, which will also have the choco meteor effect.

Yeah, I just turned it into Comet in my own patch.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Well, like you (and others earlier in the thread) said, you can take Charge skills out of the skill set then put new ones in their place (if I'm reading the previous posts correctly in relation to Charge), but you merely can't overwrite the actual Charge skills themselves.

If only.

You seem to misunderstand. Charge can't be with anything else BUT Charge skills, just like Jump, Item, and Throw.

It's rather annoying. Charge, however, can be replaced entirely by another skillset just like Jump can without acting like a bitch, like Item does (and Draw Out...and maybe Throw, IIRC).

Quote from: "RavenofRazgriz"
Quote from: "philsov"Windslash bow and tornado and... uh... think that's it :p

Oh.  Hurricane.  But that's an enemy only skill unless you Monster Skill a 1.3 Juravis.

I don't think its worth worrying about.

There's also Air Knife, Wind Soul, Iga Knife (or whatever its opposite is) and that's about it.

So I guess that means you're not adding any Wind attacks then, philsov.



Quote from: "RavenofRazgriz"The Damned's old patch thread (which I looked at out of curiousity when the two of us were discussing, lol) said he had heavily weakened Golem, which caused me to remember it.

Though I'd disagree with the stance entirely about exploitable > none.  Causing mages and such to never use magic is a fairly ridiculous level of exploitation.

To be fair, I just made Golem add Protect and even then I was uncertain of doing that and I only did that because got rid of Protect 2 (which was part of the uncertainty).

The only other way I could think to "nerf" it could be if maybe you could limit the protection to just the person that's casting it, but even that still doesn't solve the problem of AI exploitation. That or make it be able to fail or have a really low success rate, but even then....
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 18, 2010, 05:01:51 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"If only.

You seem to misunderstand. Charge can't be with anything else BUT Charge skills, just like Jump, Item, and Throw.

It's rather annoying. Charge, however, can be replaced entirely by another skillset just like Jump can without acting like a bitch, like Item does (and Draw Out...and maybe Throw, IIRC).

Oic.

I guess I was having a hard time distinguishing "Charge" from "Charge"... heh.

Quote from: "The Damned"There's also Air Knife, Wind Soul, Iga Knife (or whatever its opposite is) and that's about it.

So I guess that means you're not adding any Wind attacks then, philsov.

I'd forgotten Wind Soul existed.  Dayum.

Quote from: "The Damned"To be fair, I just made Golem add Protect and even then I was uncertain of doing that and I only did that because got rid of Protect 2 (which was part of the uncertainty).

The only other way I could think to "nerf" it could be if maybe you could limit the protection to just the person's that casting it, but even that still doesn't solve the problem of AI exploitation. That or make it be able to fail or have a really low success rate, but even then....

...That's exactly what I was thinking, having it add Protect to all allies or something.

The only possible problem with this is that ASM'D's Protect 2 probably won't be utter useless shit (see: lessened AoEs, movement ranges, etc., including on the original Protect), but some MP / CT scaling should be able to handle that problem, I think.



EDIT:  Quick thought, can specific monster species be made mountable?  Mounting in ASM'D seems far more worthwhile, but being able to only mount Chocobos really holds it back.  If you could, say, mount Chocobos, Panthers, Behemoths, Dragons, and whatever monsters have a similar body shape to them, I think it'd be worth at least experimenting with mounts since you can at least make some decisions about what you're mounting, instead of being stuck with a Chocobo of questionable use.  This is really to expand on the question I asked previously about being able to put more Worker 8-like units in the game and expand how many units can be in the party at once - having custom, non-breedable monsters that you can get via Join After Events in especially hard random encounters (such as said White Chocobo with Mimic) would be a really cool touch.  And since these units could be gotten repeatedly (unlike Worker 8, Byblos), the player isn't obligated to get them or hold onto them to have a "perfect" party.

Quote from: "philsov"Hadn't thought much on it -- in retrospect berserk is more of a liability than a boon.

How does 100% self haste/regen/defending sound?  Haste and Regen of course from the modified Cheer Up and Yell (dammit, need bring back old cheer up too imo, and Old wish would be kinda cool too), with the defending perk to make said action mean a little more.

I like that.  Old Cheer Up should also definitely return (just give it the PSP name, which is what I'm assuming you did with the Mediator skills you returned), though I don't know about Old Wish.  Could be cool on a high-HP unit with Move-HP UP, but... Item.  Maybe return Dash and have it do light damage and Cancel: Charging?  I don't know if that was discussed earlier in this thread, but low move rates in ASM'D should make that acceptable since it'll take a while for anything intending to Dash someone to move in.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 18, 2010, 09:19:56 pm
QuoteEDIT: Quick thought, can specific monster species be made mountable? Mounting in ASM'D seems far more worthwhile, but being able to only mount Chocobos really holds it back. If you could, say, mount Chocobos, Panthers, Behemoths, Dragons, and whatever monsters have a similar body shape to them, I think it'd be worth at least experimenting with mounts since you can at least make some decisions about what you're mounting, instead of being stuck with a Chocobo of questionable use. This is really to expand on the question I asked previously about being able to put more Worker 8-like units in the game and expand how many units can be in the party at once - having custom, non-breedable monsters that you can get via Join After Events in especially hard random encounters (such as said White Chocobo with Mimic) would be a really cool touch. And since these units could be gotten repeatedly (unlike Worker 8, Byblos), the player isn't obligated to get them or hold onto them to have a "perfect" party.
This is easy to do, but is really tedious.  The ASM hack that allows you to mount all monsters changes 03 (just chocobos) to 30 (all 16 monster classes).  If you want less than that, just pick a multiple of three less than 30 (in hex) and reorder the monster classes in FFTPatcher accordingly.  The tedious part is that you also have to fix all the ENTDs manually.

QuoteTo be fair, I just made Golem add Protect and even then I was uncertain of doing that and I only did that because got rid of Protect 2 (which was part of the uncertainty).

The only other way I could think to "nerf" it could be if maybe you could limit the protection to just the person's that casting it, but even that still doesn't solve the problem of AI exploitation. That or make it be able to fail or have a really low success rate, but even then....
I just cut the success rate in half in my patch, while increasing the MP cost by 15.  If you want to keep it as a protective spell, you could have it add protect and defend (unique and useful) to all units and delete protect 2 (with the Y value still at 200).

QuoteA-ha, forgot about that one. Time Mage Meteor is overkill, but choco meteor is just awesome -- I just need to delve into FFTPatcher and see if the monster abilities are past the FF mark or not, since iirc only the first 256 abilities can be used as procs on weapons. Otherwise, I'll just resort to a Comet (new TM spell) proc, which will also have the choco meteor effect.

Or you could just switch chocobo meteor with some other skill that is within the original 256 (like TM meteor) and then update red/black chocobo and all instances of time mage (so player TM and Rofokare) with the change.

QuoteIs its own little island much like throw and jump and draw out and elemental. What is  possible are charge-like abilities, since the Swordskill formula -- PA * WP + K is quite similar. Still bones the everliving crap out like 50% of the weapon types (SP/PA, PA/MA, WP*WP, etc) however. And then they can be given new skills to boot. But continue reading.

It mostly messes up mages and mage gunners.  Bows already depend on PA and SP.  All you really need to do is create some archery skills that deal SP*WP damage and some charge skills that do PA*(WP+K) and no physical class should be left out in the cold with having charge as a secondary.  But then again, I've never used of charge on a mage as a secondary past Chapter 1 or on a gunner past Chapter 2 (knight breaks > charge on guns) so not much functionality should be lost in the change.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 18, 2010, 10:57:42 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"This is easy to do, but is really tedious.  The ASM hack that allows you to mount all monsters changes 03 (just chocobos) to 30 (all 16 monster classes).  If you want less than that, just pick a multiple of three less than 30 (in hex) and reorder the monster classes in FFTPatcher accordingly.  The tedious part is that you also have to fix all the ENTDs manually.

That's kinda what I figured it would take.  I looked up the ASM for mount all monsters and noticed the same kind of relation a few hours ago.

So.

Switch Goblin series with Behemoth series (B3 : D7, B4 : D8, B5 : D9), Bomb series with Dragon series (B6 : DA, B7 : DB, B8 : DC) and Pisco Demon series with Hyudra series (BC : DD, BD : DE, BE : DF), fix the ENTD, and make the 03 into 0F (IIRC? That's what windows calculator says.) and we have sensibly ridable monsters.

Yeah, that's a bit of a pain in the ass, but pending how much each particular monster appears in battle it might be worth it.

I'd do something like that myself and pass it along but I'm still learning FFTPatcher.

It'd be nice to find a way to make stuff like Worker 8 mountable (mostly for proof-of-concept and changes that could be made based on that, not because someone should be mounting Worker 8 ), but I don't think there's anything on it.  Possibly an answer could be found in the code used to make that Undead Oracle mountable?

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"If you want to keep it as a protective spell, you could have it add protect and defend (unique and useful) to all units and delete protect 2 (with the Y value still at 200).

No reason to delete Protect 2 in ASM'D.  Protect 1 has 0 Vert Tolerance in this patch and base / max Speeds took a heavy hit, so Protect 2 would still be incredibly useful in something wanting to use White Magic > Summon Magic.

Unless there's a technical reason for offing Protect 2, but I can't think of one.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 18, 2010, 11:00:00 pm
I already did that for monsters in my patch.  It took me 4-6 hours to redo all the ENTDs, though I was also bug-checking.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 18, 2010, 11:55:22 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"I already did that for monsters in my patch.  It took me 4-6 hours to redo all the ENTDs, though I was also bug-checking.

I see.

That is tedious. :/

Then again, he's using 1.3 base and probably changing a lot of battles anyway from the sounds of it, so it may be less work pending on what his changes are.  Then again, it could also be more...
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 19, 2010, 12:18:31 am
Argh. The ENTD. I still have no idea if I'm even using it right....

You've given me quite a few things to think through, formerdeathcrops. For that I thank you.

Philsov, I just looked at the Spellbook for Blue Mages again and I was curious about something. Although I've pretty much decided on what I want (and so far my Blue Magic skill set looks almost completely different from yours), I'm curious as to whether you've significantly alerted any of the monster abilities that are part of that Spellbook. (Well, I'm curious if there are any monster skills you've significantly altered in general.)

Early Morning EDIT: It also just occurred to me that Wind-wise, we all forgot Geomancy, though I think that only Kamaitachi and Gusty Wind are Wind.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 19, 2010, 09:55:08 am
QuoteI'm curious as to whether you've significantly alerted any of the monster abilities that are part of that Spellbook. (Well, I'm curious if there are any monster skills you've significantly altered in general.)

Nope, but when selecting the spellbook I wondered if any monster ability would be imbalanced on a human, because in order to make it balanced I'd have to somehow nerf the monster, which I simply didn't want to do.  The only things I changed are coeffecients -- choco cure, for example, I wanna say is something like MA * 8 (it used to be 4?) so a human can use it fine, but then I needed to half chocobo MA so its own choco cure isn't ridiculous.  And then when I did that I had to double Choco Meteor.

In general?  Nah.  Though tbh I haven't really looked at them extensively either.  Some of the more absurd ones (Nose Breath, Hold Tight, etc) are probably going to get an MA + X effect attached rather than 100%.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 19, 2010, 10:49:34 am
Well, considering that Nose Bracelet originally had a MA+X% formula and Hold Tight is from the Zodiac's Fear skillset, those would possibly be sensible changes, although Hold Tight seems like a lesser priority since it's not readily available to the Woodfolk unlike Uribos and their Nose Bracelet.

My last question regarding your Blue Mage for now is whether its supposed to have only 14 skills or if you're just currently undecided as to what you want your last two to be.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 19, 2010, 01:00:50 pm
QuoteMy last question regarding your Blue Mage for now is whether its supposed to have only 14 skills or if you're just currently undecided as to what you want your last two to be.

A little of both, really.  The skillset already features a good spread from the monster families, has a nice selection regarding stat priorities (PA/MA/neutral-ish, etc), and has ranged attacks, AoE attacks, curing, and mana draining -- complete with a decent elemental spread too.  I don't want to give them either revival or status removal.  And, yes, while it lacks a few iconic abilities (bad breath, self destruct, etc) those abilities are either redundant or overpowered.  Having another PA-based ability would be cool (possibly something from the Work skillset), but I see no reason to have 16 just to have 16.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 19, 2010, 01:12:56 pm
Notice that there are 5 (MA+X)% formulas.  I don't think they're all the same.

3D seems always to be used on attacks where magic defense up will lower the proc rate.
41 is used for galaxy stop.  Lowered by Magic Defense UP, but if I remember correctly from Aerostar, Galaxy Stop isn't affected by Zodiac compatibility.
50 seems always to be used on attacks where defense up will lower the proc rate.
51 seems always to be used on attacks where neither will lower the proc rate, but Zodiac compatibility still might.
We can also technically can set formula 2A (talk skill) for any status inflicting formula without interference from either form of support-skill defense (though finger guard will block it, and Zodiac compatibility clearly matters here).

What complicates the issue is that every attack using formula 50 also has the fourth unknown flag (under the learn via JP sub-menu) checked, so I can't exactly be sure if it is formula 50 or Unknown Flag 4 that's flagging the status effect as physical.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 20, 2010, 12:53:16 am
So noted on both your parts.

I too concur that Self-Destruct is too overpowered for Blue Mages to have, especially with cheap revival around and it being unavoidable.

Blue EDIT: Also, I've thought about it, and I'm not sure. Do we know how enemy Blue Mages act if all their skills are Learn on Hit only? Will they have any skills? All of them? Or are we going to have set their skills in the ENTD? Because the few things I've tried to do with ENTD haven't worked out.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 20, 2010, 03:28:53 am
Quote from: "philsov"A little of both, really.  The skillset already features a good spread from the monster families, has a nice selection regarding stat priorities (PA/MA/neutral-ish, etc), and has ranged attacks, AoE attacks, curing, and mana draining -- complete with a decent elemental spread too.  I don't want to give them either revival or status removal.  And, yes, while it lacks a few iconic abilities (bad breath, self destruct, etc) those abilities are either redundant or overpowered.  Having another PA-based ability would be cool (possibly something from the Work skillset), but I see no reason to have 16 just to have 16.

I don't like the idea of taking from the Work skillset -Worker 8 and co seem a little bit too far removed from the rest of Ivalice for a Blue Mage to be able to easily copy them.  Speaking of Worker 8, are you going to make his skillset something other than "Epic Lasers, Falcon Punch, Full Cure"?

I kinda like the idea of Triple Attack, though.  It's powerful, but end-game Blue Magic is going to be.  My only thought is that it might conflict with Wave Around... unless I'm forgetting something big in terms of AoE or formula.

Is there anything in the Apanda's or Byblos' skillsets worth making into Blue Magic?




Minorly related but not really question:  If I'm remembering right, some monster attacks are really nothing more than a glorified attack command.  Could these be removed and simply replaced with the actual "Attack" command without glitching something out so we can om nom nom on their ability slots?    Pending how industrious everything gets, we may as well cram efficiency out of every possible orifice.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Sephirot24 on March 20, 2010, 11:40:36 am
How about something like Odd Soundwave for Blue Mage? We don't have any Squid ability, and the one which causes confusion / berserk (*ugh*.. can't remember the name... Mind something) seems a little too powerful. And with lowered working chances it'd be semi-worthless.

Also, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

Another signature BM ability we don't have is Scan (or some form of it). It'd be awesome if we could have a scan ability that let us see a ??? stat unit as if it were a regular one as long as it has scan status. BUT I don't know how would that be possible to do, so probably "yeah, can be done - no, WE can't do it" =P

But anyways, just trying to come up with more signature abilities :)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 20, 2010, 08:38:36 pm
QuoteMinorly related but not really question: If I'm remembering right, some monster attacks are really nothing more than a glorified attack command. Could these be removed and simply replaced with the actual "Attack" command without glitching something out so we can om nom nom on their ability slots? Pending how industrious everything gets, we may as well cram efficiency out of every possible orifice.

No.   I already tried that.  Doing that causes monsters not to use the "normal attack" at all.

QuoteIs there anything in the Apanda's or Byblos' skillsets worth making into Blue Magic?
If I remember correctly, parasite inflicts the same things as bad breath, difference is hardly useful except against mages and Zodiacs, energy is just ranged wish (which nobody used past Chapter 1 anyways), shock already exists on TK, and bio2/3 feels more like oracle or BM attacks.
By the way, wave around > triple attack since wave around hits in all 4 directions and doesn't incur evasion.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 21, 2010, 12:44:01 am
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"No.   I already tried that.  Doing that causes monsters not to use the "normal attack" at all.

Well that's a bitch.

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"If I remember correctly, parasite inflicts the same things as bad breath, difference is hardly useful except against mages and Zodiacs, energy is just ranged wish (which nobody used past Chapter 1 anyways), shock already exists on TK, and bio2/3 feels more like oracle or BM attacks.

So no.  K.  So unless Blue Magic is given Aqua Soul or something to cover Water elemental, there's not much else to give it that I can see.

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"By the way, wave around > triple attack since wave around hits in all 4 directions and doesn't incur evasion.

If he's using 1.3's Triple Attack, it has an extra space of AoE, so Wave Around hits behind and has 100% rate while Triple Attack is a giant bitchslap across the front with some really nice Vertical Tolerance (IIRC).  To be honest, that could actually be a nice contrast for physical abilities, so I'd say they'd not be that contradictory at all.

I just restored my 1.3 file, so the holy Ajora knows I'll be dealing with the lovely buffed version of that attack at Nevleska Temple very soon.  I might even try to Invite a Tiamat and name it Fluffy, heh...

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Also, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

*Sees a Skeleton*

*Clicks status to see what ASM'D has done to them*

*Sees Math Skill*

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-



EDIT:  Those shitty Movement abilities that no one uses: Make them Support Abilities?  I remember Asmo saying ages ago in the thread that they work fine as Support Abilities (or that Teleport did, or something).  While there's no way a player in their right mind would use them over Move +2, there may be justification in using one of them over a Support ability like Attack UP pending on the map, which would at least give them niche use at the cost of additional damage or something.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 21, 2010, 12:51:55 pm
As I said in the Job Skills thread, formerdeathcorps did a hell of a lot updating in the Wiki recently. I would say thanks is due.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"How about something like Odd Soundwave for Blue Mage? We don't have any Squid ability, and the one which causes confusion / berserk (*ugh*.. can't remember the name... Mind something) seems a little too powerful. And with lowered working chances it'd be semi-worthless.

Mind Blast. And, as I just posted in the Job skills thread, that won't work. Learn on Hit doesn't work if the unit is inflicted with Petrify, Stop, Berserk, Confusion, Don't Act, Blood Suck, Sleep and, of course, Dead.

That said, Blaster also doesn't work, though, and that's in the spellbook. Hey, philsov, did you change Blaster?

QuoteAlso, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

Thing is though, that the Calculator abilities were separate abilities in and of themselves rather than any actual modification to a formula. You could easily get a Level 4 Holy or Level 5 Death for human though some forced skills, but for a monster...? It would probably take a disgusting amount of ASM, especially since we can't even affect the Math Skill abilities by themselves right now.

QuoteAnother signature BM ability we don't have is Scan (or some form of it). It'd be awesome if we could have a scan ability that let us see a ??? stat unit as if it were a regular one as long as it has scan status. BUT I don't know how would that be possible to do, so probably "yeah, can be done - no, WE can't do it" =P

But anyways, just trying to come up with more signature abilities :)

That's an interesting thought, though I don't know how much use it would have. Still, maybe there would be a way to utilize Dark/Evil Looking for this purpose if one wanted to, especially since I don't think Dark/Evil Looking ever wears off by itself.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 04:03:10 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Mind Blast. And, as I just posted in the Job skills thread, that won't work. Learn on Hit doesn't work if the unit is inflicted with Petrify, Stop, Berserk, Confusion, Don't Act, Blood Suck, Sleep and, of course, Dead.

That said, Blaster also doesn't work, though, and that's in the spellbook. Hey, philsov, did you change Blaster?

Well, that's a bitch.

Since I'm assuming he wants a status-grounded Blue Magic, do any worthwhile ones come to mind / could one be made with a quick edit of Blaster or some other similar skill?




Aside  (aka, random thought that I'm posting while I remember it still):

I've done some meditation on Specials (Mustadio, etc.), and I've got some ideas that should be (mostly) usable, assuming they work.  (I've no time to test the ones I question via FFTPatcher, atm, sadly, due to 2 months of backed up trig homework).

Mustadio: Give his class the ability to Equip Robes.  Simplest solution to preserving his later-game utility once the player has Magic Guns.  With his middling Faith, Generic Mediators with Black Robes, higher permanent Faith, and Magic Attack UP make the best player-controlled gunners, oftentimes, as they cause noticeably higher damage.   Allowing Mustadio to at least match the Black Robe + Magic Attack UP portion of the equation with his lower (62, IIRC?) permanent Faith only seems logical, honestly.   It'd at least put him roughly on par with said Mediators in terms of gunning potential, especially if his skillset actually gets a skill that's worthwhile during a boss fight.  Stat breaks have questionable accuracy (especially since, IIRC, they're PA based and this is Mustadio) and if you're bringing him in to stat break, he's probably a Ninja anyway.  His original 3 skills are obviously worthless against most boss-level enemies and are Speed based (and this is ASM'D...), meaning the times he actually CAN use them... he's again probably better off as a Ninja half the time to ensure they stick.  Robes and some skills that are useful against bosses in some way are the main things he needs, imo.

Agrias... err, well, Holy Sword: Can Stasis Sword / Lightning Stab / Holy Explosion be made into Ice / Lightning / Holy Elementals while Split Punch and Crush Punch remain the element of the equipped weapon?  That'd be a cool angle to take if we could that would make Holy Sword a bit more dynamic (the 1.3 changes in terms of MP costs, Vert and range changes, etc. do a lot to create a foundation here, but in the end it only does so much).  I'd like to give Holy Sword a couple extra abilities to break up the monotony as well (since in the end, it's still just Cross AoE / 1-target AoE Sword-level damage + Holy Explosion), but I'm pretty sure we can both agree that adding more to an already useful skillset is low on the priority list.  At least making what skills it does contain more distinct would be nice, then whatever ability slots are left over once all the important stuff is fixed could be directed here...

Orlandu:  If we give Gafgarion more abilities, Orlandu should be given one of them if he's keeping his 1.3 loadout so he has a 2 : 2 : 2 : 2 ratio between Dark / Holy / Mighty / Ruin Swordskills.  Otherwise, I think he's alright.

Ramza:  Remember the whole rumor about Ramza being able to consume Gafgarion's Crystal and get his abilities from waaaaaaaaaaay back in the olden days?  Would you be interested in implementing something like that (Ramza eats his Crystal, gains weaker versions of some number of Gafgarion's Swordskills based on how many Guts abilities their are when all is said and done)?  I'll need to look over FFTPatcher tomorrow to double check some things to be sure / possibly test, but I think I've devised a really clever and painless way of making this work if you're interested and have the ability slots left over.

Meliadoul:  See Agrias.  It'd be nice to do something nifty but its very low priority since she's usable regardless.

Outside of already voiced concerns about Worker 8 and maybe Byblos, I think that covers all the Specials that could potentially use new abilities / ability tweaks.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 22, 2010, 05:06:08 am
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Well, that's a bitch.

Since I'm assuming he wants a status-grounded Blue Magic, do any worthwhile ones come to mind / could one be made with a quick edit of Blaster or some other similar skill?

If you mean any worthwhile ones from vanilla (or even 1.3), then I'd have to say "no", especially if we're asking about monsters that still aren't represented. The best are current Poison Nail, which is somewhat pathetic but could work, and Odd Soundwave, which would be going against philsov not wanting his Blue Mages to have status removal. By that same token, a lot of the other status inflicted is left are both things that philsov would probably think are ovepowered and (have a chance to) screw up Learn on Hit anyway, i.e. Bad Bracelet, Beak, Pooh, Blood Suck, etc.

Now that I think about it, I should probably test out Frog and Charm to see if they screw up Learn on Hit. Frog probably does, but Charm seems like it might not. Still, it doesn't cancel Charging....

Regardless, a quick edit of Blaster can be made; it just probably won't look anything like FFT vanilla & 1.3's Blaster, which may not be a bad thing (since Blaster still sucks in 1.3). You can just go along historical lines for Blaster (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/espmon/coeurl.shtml)--that's what I did when I gave Blaster to my Blue Mage and that's one of the Blue Magic skills I'm more certain about keeping.

QuoteAgrias... err, well, Holy Sword: Can Stasis Sword / Lightning Stab / Holy Explosion be made into Ice / Lightning / Holy Elementals while Split Punch and Crush Punch remain the element of the equipped weapon?  That'd be a cool angle to take if we could that would make Holy Sword a bit more dynamic (the 1.3 changes in terms of MP costs, Vert and range changes, etc. do a lot to create a foundation here, but in the end it only does so much).  I'd like to give Holy Sword a couple extra abilities to break up the monotony as well (since in the end, it's still just Cross AoE / 1-target AoE Sword-level damage + Holy Explosion), but I'm pretty sure we can both agree that adding more to an already useful skillset is low on the priority list.  At least making what skills it does contain more distinct would be nice, then whatever ability slots are left over once all the important stuff is fixed could be directed here...

Holy Sword skills were already Holy. I think the Holiness just doesn't take due to some bug in the game that can be ASM'd out or something like that. Lightning Stab is already Holy and Lightning, surprisingly. I remember being surprised when I edited Holy Sword a few days ago.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 02:11:40 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Regardless, a quick edit of Blaster can be made; it just probably won't look anything like FFT vanilla & 1.3's Blaster, which may not be a bad thing (since Blaster still sucks in 1.3). You can just go along historical lines for Blaster (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/espmon/coeurl.shtml)--that's what I did when I gave Blaster to my Blue Mage and that's one of the Blue Magic skills I'm more certain about keeping.

Seems like a good idea.

Quote from: "The Damned"Holy Sword skills were already Holy. I think the Holiness just doesn't take due to some bug in the game that can be ASM'd out or something like that. Lightning Stab is already Holy and Lightning, surprisingly. I remember being surprised when I edited Holy Sword a few days ago.

Oic.

I would've thought such a fix would've already been found, honestly.   It seems simple enough, but then again, I don't code in ASM.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 22, 2010, 02:21:44 pm
There is a fix. It's in orgASM packed with FFTPatcher in the latest version... Weapon something Fix.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 02:24:26 pm
Quote from: "Zaen"There is a fix. It's in orgASM packed with FFTPatcher in the latest version... Weapon something Fix.

Haha.

I've been wondering what the hell that Weapon Strike Fix thing did since the box comment is really vague, IIRC.

Problem solved before it even got caused, then.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Skip Sandwich on March 22, 2010, 05:54:24 pm
specifically, the fix lets you choose between having the skill override the weapon element, or applying both elements at once, just by setting a byte in the patcher (so you can have abilities that exhibit both behaviors)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 06:06:02 pm
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"specifically, the fix lets you choose between having the skill override the weapon element, or applying both elements at once, just by setting a byte in the patcher (so you can have abilities that exhibit both behaviors)

So we could have something like (assuming I remember the FFTPatcher interface correctly, I can't check until I get out of trig class in a few hrs):

Stasis Sword (Ice, overrides Weapon Element)
Split Punch (No innate Element, Weapon Element factored)
Crush Punch (Above)
Lightning Stab (Lightning, overrides Weapon Element)
Holy Explosion (Holy, overrides Weapon Element)

Sweet.

Doing something like that could be really cool, especially if making it happen is as simple as you said.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 22, 2010, 08:05:39 pm
I'd rather split punch be darkness elemental considering that night sword won't accept elements and the attack quote (the devil's spirit of restlessness) fits the description.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 08:21:29 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"I'd rather split punch be darkness elemental considering that night sword won't accept elements and the attack quote (the devil's spirit of restlessness) fits the description.

Possibly.

I was just doing some rough thinking-out-loud to be sure I had the concept straight.

So...

Stasis Sword (Ice, Weapon Element Ignored)
Split Punch (Darkness, Weapon Element Ignored)
Crush Punch (Weapon Element)
Lightning Stab (Lightning, Weapon Element Ignored)
Holy Explosion (Holy, Weapon Element Ignored)

Something like that, lest someone disagrees?

We'll need to see what Phil thinks of such an idea, though.  At least we'll have the idea all hammered out and ready by the time he posts a y/b at this rate, though.  =p
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 22, 2010, 09:19:08 pm
QuoteMustadio: Give his class the ability to Equip Robes. Simplest solution to preserving his later-game utility once the player has Magic Guns. With his middling Faith, Generic Mediators with Black Robes, higher permanent Faith, and Magic Attack UP make the best player-controlled gunners, oftentimes, as they cause noticeably higher damage. Allowing Mustadio to at least match the Black Robe + Magic Attack UP portion of the equation with his lower (62, IIRC?) permanent Faith only seems logical, honestly. It'd at least put him roughly on par with said Mediators in terms of gunning potential, especially if his skillset actually gets a skill that's worthwhile during a boss fight. Stat breaks have questionable accuracy (especially since, IIRC, they're PA based and this is Mustadio) and if you're bringing him in to stat break, he's probably a Ninja anyway. His original 3 skills are obviously worthless against most boss-level enemies and are Speed based (and this is ASM'D...), meaning the times he actually CAN use them... he's again probably better off as a Ninja half the time to ensure they stick. Robes and some skills that are useful against bosses in some way are the main things he needs, imo.

Mustadio's been able to equip robes in 1.3.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 10:24:05 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"Mustadio's been able to equip robes in 1.3.

He has?

Well fuck my life.  I honestly never noticed.  By the time I started using him, I had Rubber Costumes and stuff I was slapping on him, so I never bothered to scroll down and look... heh.

*Checks against my own Mustadio*

Well I'll be damned.  So all he needs is a few abilities, preferably useful against bosses without being better suited for Ninjastadio.

I'll need to mess with Blast Gun / Thief Hat / Black Robe / Vanish Mantle on Mustadio with Abandon now once I'm out of the god-forsaken Colliery, though.  I can't believe I never noticed that before.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zenius on March 22, 2010, 10:50:05 pm
Just an idea since everything else is being given an element...
Make Crush Punch Earth? The entire animation (from effect to color to everything) gives me the impression of "Earth"
Kinda like how Stasis Sword is Ice (I always thought that couldn't be anything other than Ice falling from the sky)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 22, 2010, 10:58:35 pm
Quote from: "Zenius"Just an idea since everything else is being given an element...
Make Crush Punch Earth? The entire animation (from effect to color to everything) gives me the impression of "Earth"
Kinda like how Stasis Sword is Ice (I always thought that couldn't be anything other than Ice falling from the sky)

Heh.

You just gave me a thought:

Do above.
Make 3 more Holy Sword skills for Fire/Water/Wind.
Give all of them Element + Weapon Element.
???
Profit!

I'd assume animations would be the main issue here, though.  Then again, could always recycle some obscure ones like the Archaic/Ultima Demon's Hurricane animation and one of the fiery explosions of death that exist in the game for two of them, though IDFK what could possibly be used for Water.

Would be really cool, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Zaen on March 22, 2010, 11:16:18 pm
Yeah... and if you make those, you could give one to Meliadoul or something to break the monotony of ranged Weapon Break + damage.

What I thought would be interesting, would be a Draw Out-like attack. Maybe use All-Ultima animation, or the non-Ramza Ultima, and call it Heaven's Wrath, with a giant holy explosion in a 2-3 radius around her for a good amount of damage, but moderate to high MP cost. In fact, I might do that now...
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 22, 2010, 11:22:18 pm
Meh, I really don't know how worth it is giving Agrias pretty much all elements. I'm not sure how I feel about any class having all elements, actually, though I guess a special class would be a fine exception.

I could see the "Heaven's Wrath" for Meliadoul though. It's kind of weird that she's called a Divine Knight and she's basically a glorified Berserker Knight--I guess Heaven doesn't like people having nice things (unless they're the Vatican...or one of those "mega-churches", but I digress).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 23, 2010, 01:20:45 pm
QuoteMinorly related but not really question: If I'm remembering right, some monster attacks are really nothing more than a glorified attack command. Could these be removed and simply replaced with the actual "Attack" command without glitching something out so we can om nom nom on their ability slots?

Almost.

What I can do is give just one of the PA * [PA*Br/100] abilities (choco beak, e.g.) to multiple monsters.  The kicker, then, is animations -- but if I can rig up an animation or two that works on multiple monsters, then we're money and free up at max 8 more ability slots to go hog wild with.  

QuoteHow about something like Odd Soundwave for Blue Mage? We don't have any Squid ability,

Nah, clashes too much with Talk Skill refute.

QuoteAlso, LVL abilities!

Would require Math Skill to be active, regrettably.

QuoteEDIT: Those shitty Movement abilities that no one uses: Make them Support Abilities?

Don't think that's possible, but I'm away from my fftpatcher atm so I'll check on that later.

QuoteThat said, Blaster also doesn't work, though, and that's in the spellbook. Hey, philsov, did you change Blaster?

Not yet >_>.  Been trying to get down good animations first.  But... looks like I'll have to -- or create/modify another ability which does similar yet is learnable.

QuoteMusty's original 3 skills are Speed based (and this is ASM'D...), meaning the times he actually CAN use them ninja blahblahblah

Semantically I call them stat-neutral abilities. With him as a ninja that's at most a... 3%... success boost?  Ultimately I l kind of like Musty on the matter -- that is, full of PA + X, MA + X, or Sp + X abilities.  But hosting abilities that are thus AND boss-viable?  Will take some thinking to pull off :p

QuoteElemental Sword Skills

I'm leaning toward mostly "no" on these, simply because elemental-based means elemental boosted, means 25% more damage potential.

QuoteRamza: Remember the whole rumor about Ramza being able to consume Gafgarion's Crystal and get his abilities from waaaaaaaaaaay back in the olden days?

Oh yes.  In fact, doing so would be kinda funny.  I think I know the way to rig as well but feel free to expand on it.

QuoteMore stuff for Meliadoul, Worker 8, Gaf

Should be space for em.  Dunno the exact number still, but enough that brainstorming is welcome.

QuoteWhat I thought would be interesting, would be a Draw Out-like attack. Maybe use All-Ultima animation, or the non-Ramza Ultima, and call it Heaven's Wrath, with a giant holy explosion in a 2-3 radius around her for a good amount of damage, but moderate to high MP cost. In fact, I might do that now...

That'd be cool.  Consider it in.

*runs off to Skill proposal thread for other random ideas*
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 23, 2010, 01:31:04 pm
Speaking of animations, I killed my wrists typing for close six straight hours to catalog all of the default animations in the new Animations tab in FFTPatcher. All the Active Abilities are now in the Wiki; it was bitching at me with regards to length, so I just omitted the R/S/M animations (which largely seem like they're useless).

Oh, also, I finished my Learn on Hit research last night (alongside testing other things due to now being able to change animations) with Frog and Charm and, yeah, both of those statuses also hinder Learn on Hit like I had thought. But since you weren't going to use Nose Bracelet anyway, this is pointless to tell you. I've made yet another edit in the "Learn on Hit" part of the Wiki that speaks of this and the special exception that Frog has.

Besides that, I feel like there was something else I wanted to mention/ask, but considering I've been up all night again, I'm starting to forget things. Damned insomnia....
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 23, 2010, 04:42:05 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Almost.

What I can do is give just one of the PA * [PA*Br/100] abilities (choco beak, e.g.) to multiple monsters.  The kicker, then, is animations -- but if I can rig up an animation or two that works on multiple monsters, then we're money and free up at max 8 more ability slots to go hog wild with.

You're enjoying gutting half the game and adding abilities everywhere, I see.

Quote from: "philsov"Semantically I call them stat-neutral abilities. With him as a ninja that's at most a... 3%... success boost?  Ultimately I l kind of like Musty on the matter -- that is, full of PA + X, MA + X, or Sp + X abilities.  But hosting abilities that are thus AND boss-viable?  Will take some thinking to pull off :p

He has MA+X?

O, Seal Evil?

Hm.

I'll need to actually do thinking on this as well to give you some suggestions.

Quote from: "philsov"I'm leaning toward mostly "no" on these, simply because elemental-based means elemental boosted, means 25% more damage potential.

That was kind of the idea in my original proposition: 3 attacks that can be boosted (but also blocked/negated/absorbed), and 2 attacks that can be manipulated by manipulating the held weapon but default to nothing.

This would make setting up Agrias (and to a small extent, Orlandu) a bit harder (especially during the end game) - do you want to use Chaos Blade + Setiemson / Salty Rage / Mantle?  Excalibur / Ragnarok / Save the Queen + 108 Gems?  Rune Blade + Kaiser Plate + Setiemson / Salty Rage / Mantle?  Etc.  End game setups, sure, but it means that your character still doesn't have a single "best" setup, which is good design and allows for customization.

Granted, I'm not sure how much this affects mid-game Agrias setups (108 Gems vs not 108 Gems is obvious, but unless Shields go the way of Mantles and go lower %s with abilities, it's still likely to be "Best Shield vs Ice Shield", etc), but it adds a bit of depth to her moveset and setups which I find is much welcome.

The others going Elemental was the tangent that built off - I'm not entirely sure of her having all elements myself, but it could be cool if pulled off correctly.

Quote from: "philsov"Oh yes.  In fact, doing so would be kinda funny.  I think I know the way to rig as well but feel free to expand on it.

This is how I figured it would work (assuming I understand all these buttons on FFTPatcher correctly):

1.  Make versions of Gafgarion's abilities that Ramza can learn, either exact copies or slightly modified.   Set them up to be like Blue Magic (Learn on Hit flagged, Learn with JP unflagged, etc.), and make their JP cost something piddly like 1 or 100.  Set their Learn Rates to 100, and make sure Target Enemies and Target Allies are both unflagged so the AI (shouldn't) use these abilities during battle.  This will mean Ramza MUST take Gafgarion's Crystal to learn them.

2.  Add these abilities to 27 Dark Sword, the one used by Enemy Gafgarion (but not 20 Dark Sword, the Guest version).  Whenever he comes into battle, he should have them learned at all times but never use them (instead only using "his" Dark Sword abilities).  Also add these abilities to 1A Guts and 1B Guts, the ones used by Ramza in Chapters 2-4.  They shouldn't show up on his ability list, in the same manner Ultima doesn't.

3.  Kill Gafgarion in cold blood.  Eat his Crystal.  The new "Ramza" Dark Sword abilities that Gafgarion had learned but never used should show up 100% of the time when Ramza takes his Crystal.  Dawn your funky PSP Dark Knight armor (sold separately) and bitchslap Queklain.

Unless I've forgotten something, that should do it.

Quote from: "philsov"Should be space for em.  Dunno the exact number still, but enough that brainstorming is welcome.

Worker 8 could get...

"Fragment".  Cross AoE or 1 step above.  4-ish range.  Insert one of the explosion graphics.  Probably one of his lower-damaging attacks, but hits multiple enemies, allowing him to break revival loops and such.  Name and animation obviously references a fragmentation grenade.

"Shield".  Old Draw Out AoE.  100% Reflect and (maybe or) Shell on all units (Ally or Enemy) in range.

"Self-Destruct".  Obvious.  It's a giant robot, it needs to be able to blow itself up.  Either the existing one, or a modified one that cares about things like Defense UP if you think the original would be too busted on Worker 8.  He's not the fastest bot on the block anyway and can't be Hasted, so I don't think him getting in explode range and being able to spam it would be likely, especially without hitting the caster.  (I foresee him with 2 Move due to the huge range on some of his attacks, ie Dispose).

I'd also take a bit from the enemy 1.3 bots and give him forced Fly.  Maybe a forced Item secondary (on both him and Byblos) or something, but IDK.  Probably not necessary, but I'm too used to playing 1.3.  I kinda see Worker 8 being around the speed of the slower human units, with 2 Move and Fly so that he takes a while to get in but can bypass obstacles between Fly and ranged abilities that don't give a damn about them.

I'd like to give him something like "Overdrive" (caster only Haste + Poison), but I doubt there's a way to rig Worker 8 to bypass his own immunities.  Tear.  Imo he still needs more than what I've suggested, since if you remove his "rehash" abilities he still only has like 5 abilities.  Above is a great start though, imo.

Gafgarion:

"Night Sword" possibly reduced to 2 range.  "Dark Sword" remaining at 3 range (or even going to 4) so Gafgarion's AI will actually use it.  I've found he almost never uses it even if he needs MP.

"Unholy Sacrifice", slightly modded from its PSP version to use a Work formula and the Kotetsu animation.

I'm tempted to say "Dark Holy", just because.

"Dark Pit".  Using the leftover Gravi 3 animation (since it sounds like you're taking the ability out), 4-5 panel range, cross or 1 higher AoE, moderate Darkness damage.  Charge Time.

"Abyssal Blow", again drawing roots from the PSP version.  Assuming you consolidate the 2 Shock!s, use the unused animation for this.  Should have huge single-target range (the largest range of all his abilities, and no vertical tolerance in targeting range), Work formula, but do less (non-elemental) damage than a basic attack.  75% or less.  It should also be weaker than Night Sword, damage-wise.  If possible, rig it to have a high chance of Petrifying Undead units.  If not, have it randomly dish out a bunch of lower-tier statuses like Blind or Poison.  EDIT: Should probably be unblockable.  Low-medium (again, between 50-75% of a physical attack's damage and lower than Night Sword) unblockable damage with status attached.

"Desperate Strike".  Lifebreak formula, weapon range.  Whatever animation or lack thereof feels best.  If possible, flag it to be affected by Defense UP and Protect since Gafgarion will probably have more HP than anyone in Ramza's party and its really early game.  Also, if possible, should have a 25% chance or rending the opponent's Weapon.

If you can, he should absorb Darkness so that he can heal himself with Dark Pit and Dark Holy, as well as be immune to his previously owned Blood Sword.  Then basic boss innates + Concentrate.

Seems like a good place to start with him.  Might need another ability or two, but above seems like a vast improvement.

ASIDE:  If you feel like doing a bit of text and/or event editing, an Undead Gafgarion (along with others you've killed, such as Algus and/or Miluda, pending the vibe you want to give and how many "teams" you want there to be during the battle) should appear during the Chapter 3 Yuguo Woods battle or the Chapter 4 Poeskas Lake battle.  This would give another chance to nab Gafgarion's Crystal as well as mindfuck the player in a way the original FFT should have, if done correctly.

I've no ideas for Mustadio, Meliadoul, other Specials yet, though.  Or Archer, should we end up giving it a new ability set.  Though I bet you can find a lot of abilities for Archer in that skills proposal thread you mentioned, anyway.

Quote from: "philsov"That'd be cool.  Consider it in.

I think it's safe to say that Meliadoul won't need Crush Punch anymore when we're done...




Quote from: "The Damned"Evil/Dark Looking

What is that?  I'm assuming its a status, but what does it do?  I've never heard of it and Google fails me.



EDIT:  The "Death Sentence ignores Cancel: Dead" ASM should be applied so the player can't Secret Fist cheese the AI, Imo.  Similar to my argument that Golem should do something like Add: Protect to all allied units instead of its current effect or possibly be outright removed.  These kinds of changes help the AI by compensating for programming flaws (similar to removing abilities such as Hamedo because the AI can't "see" them and things like Abandon because they're outright busted and allow characters to absorb at least double their usual damage before even factoring in things like Defense UP), and force the player to actually have some kind of level of intimacy with strategic knowledge and not AI knowledge.  Granted, the Secret Fist strategy for cheesing the AI probably won't even be necessary most of the game since you're not designing the game to be uberhard like 1.3 inherently, but getting rid of it would still be a nice touch and follow through with many other changes made quite well.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 23, 2010, 05:27:30 pm
Evil/Dark Looking does nothing unless you make it do something.  As for Holy Sword, changing its elemental to have more varied elements is hardly a boost.  108 gems boosts elemental damage, regardless if Holy Sword is holy elemental or holy, ice, or lightning elemental.

As I've already noted, you can't use the work formula and still have elemental damage.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 23, 2010, 06:29:16 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Evil/Dark Looking does nothing unless you make it do something.

I see.  So, empty status.  Sweet.  

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"As for Holy Sword, changing its elemental to have more varied elements is hardly a boost.  108 gems boosts elemental damage, regardless if Holy Sword is holy elemental or holy, ice, or lightning elemental.

It does matter with Kaiser Plate and Black Robe, two items that Agrias and other Holy Sword users can equip instead of 108 Gems.

It also matters based on the target's equipment as well.  White Robe comes to mind immediately, as does Chameleon Robe and a few accessories.

I used 108 Gems as an example, but it's not the only viable element-boosting piece of equipment in the game.  

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"As I've already noted, you can't use the work formula and still have elemental damage.

It's a good thing the only time I used the words "Element" and "Work formula" together on the same ability had me specifying that it shouldn't have any element, then!

The only ability I specified as having Darkness Element (Dark Pit) would be working a magic formula, if it weren't obvious based on the way it was described.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 24, 2010, 03:01:45 am
I don't think Self-Destruct can ever care about Defense Up and since Worker 8 has a shitload of HP...yeah. Unfortunately, it's the same with Shock and Blade Beam and Climhazzard I believe.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"I see.  So, empty status.  Sweet.

It's not completely a blank slate.

As formerdeathcorps noted in the Wiki, any status without a set duration originally cannot be given one. Dark/Evil Looking, perhaps because it was never used, has no set duration, which may be problematic depending on what you want to do with.

Also, it's tends to glitch in a minor way in that it causes the character afflicted with it to stop moving (even though I can't remember right now if I stops CT; I think it might even though it shouldn't).

Otherwise, yeah, it's "empty" and seemed to work for the most part when I was testing things years ago, though I haven't really messed around with status much in testing outside of the very recent Learn on Hit thing.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 24, 2010, 03:19:31 am
It doesn't stop CT.

Learn on Status = Counterattack/Move-HP UP flag + Unit still is considered your unit (hence why charm doesn't work) - if spell is self-dispelling (like frog).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 24, 2010, 10:40:54 am
Thanks for the correction. That made me carryover the changes I did to Dark/Evil Looking in "On the Skulls of Dragons" so that I could continue testing it.

When you get the chance, formerdeathcorps, can you double check the Animations (Tab) in the Wiki for me? I want to make sure I didn't screw up anything, especially since I was typing for hours (and it may take several more hours just to check over it).

****

Hijacking of the thread aside, I think I remembered the other thing I was going to ask, philsov: Did you decide/have you decided on what graphics you're using for three new items you made?

I ask this partially out of curiosity and partially because Palette 5, Graphic AA looks like it might make a decent Turtle Shell, but the Palette 5 row is apparently buggy, at least in some places.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 24, 2010, 03:29:27 pm
Question on Ninja's "massive" PA nerf:  Are you changing Ninja Swords to PA*WP?

If this PA nerf is as massive as you're making it sound, you'll probably need to since elsewise they're still losing a good 3ish SP off their damage formula in addition to the drastic PA cut.

What I mean is that your post says average speed will be 9 at Level 99.  My level 50 straight 1.3 Ninja has 11 at level 50.  Considering he still has 50 levels to go if grown "straight", I'd imagine a 4 point gap to occur between the two before factoring in equipment.

I'd say only nerf their PA slightly, so that it with Attack UP comes out roughly equal to a no-Support Ability 1.3 Ninja of the same level (and as such would allow you to keep Ninja Swords as WP*(SP+PA)/2, but I know you're also compensating for Martial Arts... though I'd think having that level of PA would still be enough of a cut to stop them from being abusive.  I can do math to try and figure out what the multiplier would need to be in this case if you want later.

Monks... ugh.  I still have no decent ideas of how to deal with Two Swords Monk without making Monk itself suck.  I'm assuming we can't just flag fists to be immune to Two Swords.  That would make life hella easy for everyone.  :|

EDIT:

Hidden Knife - Always: Transparent?

It's the weakest Ninja Knife, so a Ninja trying to keep with it as one of their weapons and maintain 100% accuracy without Concentrate is losing a lot on the WP side of things.  It would also help Thief by allowing them to equip a weapon that's essentially innate: Concentrate for stealing but would punish them as the game progresses when actually trying to attack due to low WP.

I have more ideas for other Ninja Knives, but my battery is almost dead.  I'll post them when I can get back on.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 24, 2010, 03:35:01 pm
You can do what I did in my patch.  Namely, I removed innate martial arts and forced monk to learn it manually (by switching monk's place with summoners).  To do this, you have to reorder the unit classes in FFTPatcher (every instance of Mk and Su), ShiShi, WORLD.BIN, and WORLDFACE.BIN.  It's a hassle, but it's not really that bad, nor does monk lack endgame potential in that case.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 24, 2010, 03:37:14 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You can do what I did in my patch.  Namely, I removed innate martial arts and forced monk to learn it manually (by switching monk's place with summoners).  To do this, you have to reorder the unit classes in FFTPatcher (every instance of Mk and Su), ShiShi, WORLD.BIN, and WORLDFACE.BIN.  It's a hassle, but it's not really that bad, nor does monk lack endgame potential in that case.

...Why didn't anyone else think of that?

Heh.

Well, if Philsov wants to do some tedious work, he has his solution for Monk and possibly Ninja.  Though I'd just go with nerfing Ninja's stats directly and letting them keep their innate.  That's just me, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 24, 2010, 05:04:01 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You can do what I did in my patch.  Namely, I removed innate martial arts and forced monk to learn it manually (by switching monk's place with summoners).  To do this, you have to reorder the unit classes in FFTPatcher (every instance of Mk and Su), ShiShi, WORLD.BIN, and WORLDFACE.BIN.  It's a hassle, but it's not really that bad, nor does monk lack endgame potential in that case.
...!

But that would mean...

no more Martial Arts Summoners...
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 24, 2010, 06:47:22 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You can do what I did in my patch.  Namely, I removed innate martial arts and forced monk to learn it manually (by switching monk's place with summoners).  To do this, you have to reorder the unit classes in FFTPatcher (every instance of Mk and Su), ShiShi, WORLD.BIN, and WORLDFACE.BIN.  It's a hassle, but it's not really that bad, nor does monk lack endgame potential in that case.
...!

But that would mean...

no more Martial Arts Summoners...

I would give Summoners innate Martial Arts for the lulz if that change were made, if only so people can't bitch about not having them.  Besides, Summoners need to be big, strong men with hair on their chest (or incredibly busty and mildly muscular women) to control those savage beasts.  Seriously.


More Ninja Sword stuff -

Hidden Knife - Always: Transparent (posted above, but putting here for the sake of completeness.

Ninja Knife - Its description plays it off to be similar to a modified Dagger (read: probably a Kunai), and the sprite agrees, so possibly give it Dagger-like properties (5% evasion, some status that Daggers don't cover like Don't Move or something, etc).  You could leave it vanilla as well, but that seems boring, especially since it's the only Ninja Sword with a different sprite entirely instead of just a recolor.  That, and there's only 5 non-rare Ninja Swords, so I think most of them having some kind of special effect is fine - and it's not like all Daggers don't do something cool anyway.

Short Edge - Um.  First thing that comes to mind is Speed +1 or something with 0% Evasion emphasize it being small and lightweight, but that'd obviously not work.  Part of me wants to say leave it vanilla but I'm suggesting something akin to that for the very next blade.  I'll need to think on this one.

Ninja Edge - It's described as being larger than most swords (I'd read it as being larger than the average sword), so leave it vanilla but give it more evasion.  15%, maybe?  That'd add up to roughly having a mid-level Shield equipped alongside a weapon should you go double Ninja Edge, and allow it to make a good compliment to most of the other Ninja weapons in a Two Swords situation.

Then Spell Edge, PA +1 Sasuke Knife, and 1.3 Iga/Koga Knives fill it out and Ninja Swords suddenly become interesting and worth doing more mixing/matching with.



Squires:  Where exactly were we with them again?   I remember us having a rather nice discussion about them ages ago but I forget exactly what was settled on last and had an idea about them.



Shields / Mantles / Accessories / random things - Have you finalized much of this stuff yet?  I had some ideas for a lot of things (including expanding my previous concept about mantles) and could post it all so you can see what you like and save yourself some trouble brainstorming items if you like.  I figure ASM'D already has enough expansive changes to consider implementing so helping with the equips that probably need the most modifying should make things easier on you, no?  =p  EDIT:  I wrote up something and saved it in a notepad.  I'll post it if you want, and if you're all set for ideas/etc for Shields/Mantles/etc I'll keep it for if I do a patch myself later.  Whatever you prefer.  It's fairly long, so I don't wanna drop another TL;DR unless you want to see it though.



Turtle Shell:  You should sprite swap in a Koopa Troopa shell.  It would be lol and ftw.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 25, 2010, 11:42:28 pm
Posting because I've had what I think are some rather worthwhile brainstorms due to having no internet and messing with FFTPatcher all day.  One of these includes a notepad file with almost every item in the game re-rebalanced for ASM'd / similarly designed patches, partially out of boredom and partially because if I make a patch it'll also include innate Weapon Guard and many similar concepts to ASM'd anyway so it won't go to waste if Philsov decides not to use anything from it.  It's... really long, so it'll be attached instead of posted.



First point, Specials - namely Agrias, Orlandu, Meliadoul.  In Vanilla, Meliadoul can equip Clothes and Spears and Orlandu can equip any Sword-like weapon in the game, yet to use their abilities you need a Sword or Knight Sword.  So, I'm thinking we should change the "requires Sword / Knight Sword" line become "requires Sword / Knight Sword / Ninja Sword / Katana / Spear", allow Orlandu to again take up Ninja Swords and Katanas, and give Agrias the ability to equip Hats.  This would do a few beneficial things:

1.  Specials in Samurai main job would be practical and potentially cool.  Equip Knife no longer exists, so this relationship couldn't go both ways.  The same is true with Lancers, and while Equip Spear exists to make the relationship technically go both ways, Spears are weaker than Swords in general so it shouldn't be an issue.  Ninja specials wouldn't be an issue because you're raping Ninja PA to some extent.

2.  Specials in their unique main job would feel even more distinct - Meliadoul with Clothes and Spears to differentiate her loadouts, Agrias with Hats, and Orlandu with a menagerie of Swords to go with his menagerie of Swordskills.  Combined with potentially expanded or reimagined skillsets (Meliadoul's getting at least one new skill, Agrias could get her Swordskills elementalified, etc), each character becomes more unique and customizable, which is something I find is important regardless of whether the character is special or generic.  

This would run us the issue of "how the fuck do I use a SWORDskill with a SPEAR?", but you know what?  Fuck the haters.  The real question is whether tacking Spears onto the ASM that allows Swords / Knight Swords / Ninja Swords / Katanas is possible without hitting everything in between too.  If not, I say we disable Meliadoul's ability to equip Spears and think of something else to compliment her ability to equip Clothes innate instead.  Doing this would also have odd ramifications for Beowulf, I know, he's often better off staying as a Temple Knight regardless.



Second, said attachment.  There's a table of contents and such, so even though it includes most equipable items in the game finding what you're looking for should be easy.   Philsov, you (or anyone else who looks) can feel free to lift whatever they want from these notes, since that's why I'm posting them.  Just remember they're tailored for a more ASM'd-like environment where units move less spaces per turn and net Speeds are far lower.  You'd probably be interested in checking out Shields / Mantles, Philsov, since the ones in here seem like they'd be perfect for ASM'd, though feel free to lift the entire thing if you want.  It probably took me 10 hours totalling all the different sessions I did this in to compile everything, so I'd not mind at all if you grab everything, make the few likely needed minor adjustments, and put that time on your end into fixing up other aspects of ASM'd so we can crank this bitch out faster.  Then again, I don't know how far you are in finalized equipments, so if you're all set that's just as well too since we know at least that part of the creative process is finished sans some polishing.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 26, 2010, 02:34:48 am
Thank you for posting that document. I find those purposes interesting, though admittedly all I was interested in were your ideas for shields and mantles since I'm plan to do something different with everything else.

For some reason, Short Edge is missing in the document under Ninja Knives.

Also, to answer your question about the Hair Adornment slots, turning them into Helmets or Hats works fine. The only "problem" that would otherwise occur would be that you made them into something that one shouldn't be able to put one's head, they would still be able to worn one's head.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 26, 2010, 02:49:11 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Thank you for posting that document. I find those purposes interesting, though admittedly all I was interested in were your ideas for shields and mantles since I'm plan to do something different with everything else.

Glad it proved interesting for you, at least.  I'm thinking Bracer should either just stay with +3 PA or go +2 PA with no other benefit (so it doesn't entirely retcon the Knight's Mantle), but +3 PA seems too good (always has for me) and I'm unsure if +2 PA straight would be worth equipping over other accessories.

Were there any items that seemed grossly imba, that you remember?  Most of it seemed fine but I'm thinking the Axe/Flail WP might not be done correctly and that Poles could be done a bit better.

Quote from: "The Damned"For some reason, Short Edge is missing in the document under Ninja Knives.

It's missing because I have no idea what to do with Short Edge, admittedly.  At all.

I don't want to keep it effectless because it immediately becomes the worst Ninja Sword.  Speed +1 is out, Guard Plus doesn't work because the blade is shorter (but not Daggerlike), not longer, and making it Daggerlike doesn't work because it's still long enough to be a "Sword".  I was thinking maybe Cancel: Slow, but that seems like an odd property to put on a Weapon.

Quote from: "The Damned"Also, to answer your question about the Hair Adornment slots, turning them into Helmets or Hats works fine. The only "problem" that would otherwise occur would be that you made them into something that one shouldn't be able to put one's head, they would still be able to worn one's head.

Ah, I see.

So -Small Mantle, +Ribbon, +3! new Epic Hats!  Sounds win to me.  :D
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 26, 2010, 03:24:57 am
(Damn computer. I could have sworn I hit enter, but no...I had to leave the page only see this didn't get posted. No matter. I'll just make it more concise now that I know what I want to say.)

If you're asking me if something is egregious, then the only remotely egregious thing I see that you didn't point out yourself was that Octagon Rod is still the same, which means that it utterly blows. I mean, as much as I dislike Gokuu Rod as well, at least that one can be somewhat useful if you hit other mages (mid-charge). Octagon Rod just seems like a gigantic "FU" to Oracles from the game designers in vanilla and 1.3. (if only because it didn't get changed there). How are you going to make the best store-bought weapon for a class something that actively works against that class and its strengths? It'd be liking making Ultimus Bow have a Range of 1.

Besides that, I'm still pretty skeptical about strong weapons like Spell Edge and Ancient Sword inflicting Don't Act or certain other strong weapons, like Dragon Rod, summoning things for free, but you copied those directly from 1.3, so I can't fault you.

Everything else that seems "suspicious", including Black Hood, is something that you recognized as potentially a problem, so those could at least be ironed out, maybe. It's really difficult to examine items in a vacuum, even more difficult than it is to examine abilities or class stats/growth in a vacuum.

I'm not a weapons expert by any means, but as far as I know, it's easier to parry things with shorter blades than longer ones. So if you meant giving Short Edge more evasion when you mentioned "Guard Plus", then I can't fault you. I may be wrong, though.

I'm most likely getting rid of Ninja Knives entirely, so I can't really say I've been considering anything with them. Sorry.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on March 26, 2010, 04:45:17 am
For Morning Star and Scorpion Tail, why don't you just switch them around?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 26, 2010, 05:42:42 am
Quote from: "The Damned"If you're asking me if something is egregious, then the only remotely egregious thing I see that you didn't point out yourself was that Octagon Rod is still the same, which means that it utterly blows. I mean, as much as I dislike Gokuu Rod as well, at least that one can be somewhat useful if you hit other mages (mid-charge). Octagon Rod just seems like a gigantic "FU" to Oracles from the game designers in vanilla and 1.3. (if only because it didn't get changed there). How are you going to make the best store-bought weapon for a class something that actively works against that class and its strengths? It'd be liking making Ultimus Bow have a Range of 1.

The main reason I left it that way is due to male Oracles - 1.3 multiplier male Oracles still have nice PA (enhanced multipliers) as long as their first 20 levels are in some vaguely physical class for growths, and with the growth gap being shrunk down in ASM'd these Warrior-Oracles are even more likely to be usable.  Octagon Rod keeping the PA formula means these guys have a decent Pole to work with before Poaching occurs, though admittedly I think I should actually switch some other Poles to the PA formula (which would actually solve my problem of what to do with the "useless" Pole weapons. Gokuu Rod might get a WP buff to compensate for this though - getting up to 11 or so.  This way Oracle works as a class both males and females can have some success being in, and Musk Rod + Battle Bamboo aren't immediately curved out the way the current Pole schema has them going.  That would work out awesomely, I think - dual road Poles, with store bought ones favoring PA as the strongest Pole and poaching favoring MA.  I'll need to update this part of the document later, probably noting an edit in the description that at least hints whether each Pole works off PA or MA.

EDIT: on second thought, PA oriented Poles = Spears.  I'd rather just let Oracles equip Spears naturally.  This'd just mean Octagon Rod only triggers 25% of the time, which doesn't honestly seem like a big deal.  Then again, I'm more than sure it was put on a PA formula so you could strike your own guys with it and not get raped... but that's an incredibly stupid thing to do.  Therefore, damn thing needs an entirely new effect.  Suggestions?  Also, in this case, should Ivory Rod go to MA*WP again and gain something to differentiate it a bit from Whale Whisker?

Quote from: "The Damned"Besides that, I'm still pretty skeptical about strong weapons like Spell Edge and Ancient Sword inflicting Don't Act or certain other strong weapons, like Dragon Rod, summoning things for free, but you copied those directly from 1.3, so I can't fault you.

Spell Edge is still the same as it was in vanilla, honestly, except the evade keeps changing to match the patch in question.  The main things that make me think these weapons are okay are - 1. usually useless proc vs bosses, and 2. if their WP is too low, they don't see use anyway.  Ninjas are eating an epic nerf in ASM'd, so Spell Edge's 13 WP isn't as big a deal as it usually is... and in my schema, Ancient Sword is competing against more boostable Element Swords and such that can outright kill things.  PA stacking also causes its sizable 11 WP to mean less quickly... the more PA you have, the more that extra 3 WP of Rune Blade or even 0-2 WP boosted damage of an Element Sword means.

Dragon Rod, you're going in with what's likely to be using PA stacked Warrior-Oracles at close range against stuff sporting shields and more PA to balance out their lower WP scores... all of which lead to you being on the losing side of the evasion war and your otherwise ridiculous proc being weakened because the equipment loadout doesn't favor it.  There's Equip Mageset, which would allow a more PA oriented job like Knight to snag on a Dragon Rod, but that's probably doing less damage than an Attack UP Knight Sword or Two Hands Sword, etc.  Considering how rare Dragon Rods are (I imagine the way Philsov has poaching set up, they'll either be locked into Chapter 4 or Trophy/Steal only), I don't see the problem when it's easily matched by other classes.

Quote from: "The Damned"Everything else that seems "suspicious", including Black Hood, is something that you recognized as potentially a problem, so those could at least be ironed out, maybe. It's really difficult to examine items in a vacuum, even more difficult than it is to examine abilities or class stats/growth in a vacuum.

Alright, as long as I didn't entirely overlook something that's a problem, I'm happy.  Stuff like Black Hood can be handled easily with a bit of playtesting, I think.

Quote from: "The Damned"I'm not a weapons expert by any means, but as far as I know, it's easier to parry things with shorter blades than longer ones. So if you meant giving Short Edge more evasion when you mentioned "Guard Plus", then I can't fault you. I may be wrong, though.

I was going by the general consensus of how W-EV works in FFT... I'm pretty sure the game is implying a character is "defending" with their weapon at ready to deflect at the end of their turn, which is why large weapons like Axes, Knight Swords, etc. have the highest W-EV.  (Then again, vanilla Axes had 0 W-EV, but Knight Swords had 35% and Defender at 60%, so...)  

But yeah, I've still got nothing for that damned thing besides completely redesigning it, and even there I've no ideas really.

Quote from: "The Damned"I'm most likely getting rid of Ninja Knives entirely, so I can't really say I've been considering anything with them. Sorry.

Heh.  It's fine.

Quote from: "Dokurider"For Morning Star and Scorpion Tail, why don't you just switch them around?

...Because that solution is too easy and it's totally not how I handled balancing half of the Swords.  Geez.

Lol.

That's probably the best idea, honestly.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 27, 2010, 02:06:24 pm
Posting because I saw this in another thread and think it needs to be brought to your attention:

Quote from: "R999"Aside from the special skills not behaving properly, I can also add that changing Geomany skills is also impossible. Setting Random Attack = true will not do anything, it will always hit on all panels in effect. Changing the formula also does nothing; they are always hardcoded with the same formula.

Also, for anyone who checked that attachment I posted previously, I'm in the middle of updating it some to fix a couple imbalances, a deal of typos, edit some things, clean up Rods / Bows / etc.  It should be ready soon for anyone who'd like to see it.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 27, 2010, 04:18:13 pm
Hmm...that's annoying. I'm guessing you can change the animations, the effects, the status and the elements, though, right? We already know you can change the variable.

Also, with regards to items, I had been meaning to ask you, why did you get rid of the halving effect of the Flame and Ice shields? Also, why did you give Flame Shield have two weaknesses?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 27, 2010, 04:32:37 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Hmm...that's annoying. I'm guessing you can change the animations, the effects, the status and the elements, though, right? We already know you can change the variable.

Ask R999.  I'm just reporting them as I see them.

Quote from: "The Damned"Also, with regards to items, I had been meaning to ask you, why did you get rid of the halving effect of the Flame and Ice shields? Also, why did you give Flame Shield have two weaknesses?

Ice halving Fire didn't make any sense to me and vice versa, and I felt a Lightning weakness on Ice Shield with nothing comparable on Flame Shield still made the latter the general winner.  Hence Ice/Water, since once Ice melts its still Water, that way both have a semi-common weakness.  I'd be more than willing to give them a Half: X if it's reasonable for that Element to half it, though.  Maybe have Ice Half: Water and Fire Half: Dark?  Ice is Water and Fire makes the Darkness go away, so :D.  That way, both would half a rare element, absorb a common element, and be weak to their inverse (+Water for Flame Shield).

Seems sensible to me, anyway.



Also, I fixed Octagon Rod and Ivory Rod.  I made Octagon Rod MA*WP that does damage in all elements (there are 8 elements, so this way the effect is still an octagon!), and Ivory Rod MA*WP with one less WP (so 14 WP, 15% W-EV, 25% Local Quake).  How does that sound?

I'll post a new attachment with updated text now as well.  I edited Spears a bit (Partisan), redid Poles some, added a "Thought process:" section to Ninja Swords, cleaned up the section about Boots, fixed some typos (such as clarifying that Holy Lance still dealt Holy Elemental damage), minorly edited Flail WP to switch Morning Star with Scorpion Tail, and made a slight edit to Shields so that Diamond Shield now has 25% Magic Evasion instead of Platina Shield (else Platina Shield would have been best common Shield, no contest), and gave Platina Shield Half: Holy until I think of something better.  Chirijiraden now procs Flare, which should be roughly the same as it procing itself due to Faith formula, but has a far better flavor to it.  There might be a few other edits, but they should all be noted.  There are also some brainstorm notes somewhere involving the Initial: Haste status and something else now, IIRC.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 27, 2010, 08:16:26 pm
QuoteThat was kind of the idea in my original proposition: 3 attacks that can be boosted (but also blocked/negated/absorbed), and 2 attacks that can be manipulated by manipulating the held weapon but default to nothing.

Swordskills are already set to a coeffecient of 0.  I can't make them any weaker without reducing sword/knight sword WP.  I don't want them elementally boosted.  I understand where you're coming from with the multiple setups angle, but I think we're better off with the previous way in this case.

~

@Worker 8 / Gaf suggestions - excellent!  I'll be implementing either them or a variant.  

QuoteI think it's safe to say that Meliadoul won't need Crush Punch anymore when we're done...

Well she doesn't anyways -- there's the ASM hack that'll make mighty sword work versus zodiacs/monsters/etc.  Did I not include that on the front page? >_>

QuoteEDIT: The "Death Sentence ignores Cancel: Dead" ASM should be applied so the player can't Secret Fist cheese the AI, Imo.

I was actually planning on making all the gear that cancel:Dead also blocked cancel: Death Sentence to get the same thing accomplished, but that might work as well.

QuoteDid you decide/have you decided on what graphics you're using for three new items you made?

Shade of Grey = AA / 6
Turtle Shell = AC / F
Dual Kiss = AB/3

Kept the old item graphics because they'd still be unique, but I did swap the colors to be a bit more fitting and/or different.

QuoteQuestion on Ninja's "massive" PA nerf: Are you changing Ninja Swords to PA*WP?

If this PA nerf is as massive as you're making it sound, you'll probably need to since elsewise they're still losing a good 3ish SP off their damage formula in addition to the drastic PA cut.

What I mean is that your post says average speed will be 9 at Level 99. blahblablah

No, ninja swords are keeping the same formula.  I had already boosted the WP to compensate the lowered SP, and the PA nerf will work with the perma-present two-swords.  In terms of relative output I want an attack up ninja to be swinging for about the same as any other physical class with two swords.  Btw a ninja at 99 will have 10 speed.  
QuoteHidden Knife - Always: Transparent?  It's the weakest Ninja Knife, so a Ninja trying to keep with it as one of their weapons and maintain 100% accuracy without Concentrate is losing a lot on the WP side of things. It would also help Thief by allowing them to equip a weapon that's essentially innate: Concentrate for stealing but would punish them as the game progresses when actually trying to attack due to low WP.

I like.
QuoteWell, if Philsov wants to do some tedious work, he has his solution for Monk and possibly Ninja.

I want to have all the supports available to all the classes -- if I do a class swap that class will have innate X.  So if I do this with say... summoner... they'll have innate martial arts which... I find incredibly odd.  To this end ninja will be keeping innate two swords, but I might do that thing with the monk waaaaay down the road.  

QuoteBig list of item changes

Will be looked at later :p.

~

Meanwhile, I have been messing with ability consolidation and placement and such.  Ramza, Meliadoul, Musty, Gaffy, and Worker 8 gained new skills.  Worker 8's abilities reformed slightly to allow for AoE to boot.  But no self destruct, sorry  :mrgreen: )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.[/spoiler]

~

And... that's 12 atm for archer skillset + new generic abilities.  woot woot.  Comments, as always, welcome.  Otherwise, time to brainstorm on new boss shit and look at that item list.

Edit:
QuoteI can also add that changing Geomany skills is also impossible... Changing the formula also does nothing; they are always hardcoded with the same formula.

Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 27, 2010, 08:27:10 pm
Philsov, I don't think you understood my skillset swap.  Monk the job has martial arts innate flagged (which can be removed with FFTPatcher).  It also cannot have martial arts learned with JP be set as a support ability.
Thus, if you then make monk have all the stat growths and abilities of summoner, then monk becomes summoner (has the stats of summoner, punch art now contains summons and the R/S/M of a summoner) except that this summoner (which took the spot in the class wheel of monk) can never learn martial arts (but doesn't have it innately, nor would any reasonable person give summoner martial arts for the support slot anyways).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 27, 2010, 08:42:49 pm
Quote from: "philsov"That was kind of the idea in my original proposition: 3 attacks that can be boosted (but also blocked/negated/absorbed), and 2 attacks that can be manipulated by manipulating the held weapon but default to nothing.

Swordskills are already set to a coeffecient of 0.  I can't make them any weaker without reducing sword/knight sword WP.  I don't want them elementally boosted.  I understand where you're coming from with the multiple setups angle, but I think we're better off with the previous way in this case.[/quote]

I didn't mean somehow boost them, I meant equipment could be used to boost or weaken them pending the situation.

If that's how you feel on it though, very well.  It's not a big deal in the long run I s'pose, it just felt like a nice touch.

Quote from: "philsov"Well she doesn't anyways -- there's the ASM hack that'll make mighty sword work versus zodiacs/monsters/etc.  Did I not include that on the front page? >_>

Nope.  I didn't see it, at least, which surprised me.  Will her moves be keeping infinite vert tol with that ASM or will you be adjusting them?

Quote from: "philsov"I was actually planning on making all the gear that cancel:Dead also blocked cancel: Death Sentence to get the same thing accomplished, but that might work as well.

I see.  I'd just implement the ASM, myself, since the result is less editing work and makes Death Sentence a more worthwhile status.

Quote from: "philsov"No, ninja swords are keeping the same formula.  I had already boosted the WP to compensate the lowered SP, and the PA nerf will work with the perma-present two-swords.  In terms of relative output I want an attack up ninja to be swinging for about the same as any other physical class with two swords.  Btw a ninja at 99 will have 10 speed.

Alright, as long as their output is roughly that however you get there is fine with me.  I just want to be sure you don't accidentally nerf them too much.

Quote from: "philsov"I like.

I had the feeling you would.

Quote from: "philsov"I want to have all the supports available to all the classes -- if I do a class swap that class will have innate X.  So if I do this with say... summoner... they'll have innate martial arts which... I find incredibly odd.  To this end ninja will be keeping innate two swords, but I might do that thing with the monk waaaaay down the road.

See my previous post.  That mage would need to be benchpressing some to control monsters anyway, I would imagine.  Unless they're female, but that's a whole other can of worms best left unopened.

Quote from: "philsov"Meanwhile, I have been messing with ability consolidation and placement and such.  Ramza, Meliadoul, Musty, Gaffy, and Worker 8 gained new skills.  Worker 8's abilities reformed slightly to allow for AoE to boot.  But no self destruct, sorry  :(

Dare I ask how long each character's ability list is now (not what's in them, just how many to get an idea of how much the changes buffed them)?  I imagine Ramza's sitting close to 16 now, at least.

Quote from: "philsov"From perusing the new skill thread for skills that'll work without making a new class:

Pierce - (Knight?) double-panel PA*WP attack (think earth slash)
Piercing Strike - (Monk?) Cancel: Defend, Cancel: Protect, Cancel: Shell, deal X% HP damage.
Cleave - (Squire?) deals 50% max hp damage to target, weapon range
Venom Dervish - (Dancer) 10% max hp damage with a chance to poison - Wiznaibus adjusted
War Epic - (Bard) heal 10% max hp with with a chance to add regen - Life Song adjusted

I don't like the new songs/dances, myself.  Cleave deals 50% of user's max HP or target's max HP?    If user's, then yes, it seems cool for the Squire. If it's target's, then still probably yes though make it Dark Element (if possible) so Zodiacs will be immune.

I would change the name of either Pierce of Piercing Strike, but yes, both abilities seem awesome.

Quote from: "philsov"Giving a new skillset to archer does sound enticing, but I'm lost on what exactly to do with them since the number of PA based and cool formulas is dreadfully low, and I'd rather not go the lame elemental arrows route.  Browsing other archer variants, I've come up with this thus far (7 skills):

Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( :mrgreen: )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

We need to get Eternal in here.  I like most of these though.

Though stuff like Heavy Arrow - will those work with non-ranged weapons?  I'm assuming (and hoping) no for consistency's sake, but you never know.

Quote from: "philsov"And... that's 12 atm for archer skillset + new generic abilities.  woot woot.  Comments, as always, welcome.  Otherwise, time to brainstorm on new boss shit and look at that item list.

Use the newer Item list, I fixed a lot of idiocy that somehow creeped into the original in that one.  Hopefully you get some good stuff from it.  :p

New boss stuff, another thing we could use Eternal for.  I've not got many ideas but IIRC his new patch has mostly new abilities for the bosses, so yeah.

Quote from: "philsov"Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.

I assume you've tested them thoroughly then.  If so, you'd best run off and correct him then.  :p
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 27, 2010, 08:47:03 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Shade of Grey = AA / 6
Turtle Shell = AC / F
Dual Kiss = AB/3

Kept the old item graphics because they'd still be unique, but I did swap the colors to be a bit more fitting and/or different.

So noted.

Quote from: "philsov"From perusing the new skill thread for skills that'll work without making a new class:

Pierce - (Knight?) double-panel PA*WP attack (think earth slash)

I've been trying to get type of attack to with my Knight and it's been...acting rather odd, even before the fact that it wants to bitch about the animation I've given it.

I think you have to limit to "Requires Sword" too because it acts really awkward with distance weapons from what little I've seen. So...yeah.

Quote from: "philsov"Piercing Strike - (Monk?) Cancel: Defend, Cancel: Protect, Cancel: Shell, deal X% HP damage.

This uses Death's formula, doesn't it? Which means that it won't affect Undead and uses MA, right?

Personally I would give it to a magical class.... (Or, rather, I have given similar techniques to a magical class.)

Then again, I hate Monks, so....

Quote from: "philsov"Cleave - (Squire?) deals 50% max hp damage to target, weapon range

I can't say I like this at all. Even if it has abysmal accuracy.

Quote from: "philsov"Venom Dervish - (Dancer) 10% max hp damage with a chance to poison - Wiznaibus adjusted
War Epic - (Bard) heal 10% max hp with with a chance to add regen - Life Song adjusted

These seem fine. I thought the Dance and Bard formulas didn't take status, though, outside of Nameless Dance and Nameless Song slot's being hardcorded, respectively.

I remember testing to find out and I completely forget.

Quote from: "philsov"Giving a new skillset to archer does sound enticing, but I'm lost on what exactly to do with them since the number of PA based and cool formulas is dreadfully low, and I'd rather not go the lame elemental arrows route.  Browsing other archer variants, I've come up with this thus far (7 skills):

Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( :mrgreen: )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

I can't say I like abilities that only the player can use effectively.

Ache through Heavy Arrow seem like they're good.

Salve and Execute seem kind of out of place "flavor-wise". What formula would you even be using for Execute anyway? The Death formula?

Quote from: "philsov"Actually, he's incorrect with these regards.  The shifted formulas I'm using work within elemental.  That is, their natural one (24, composite, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * MA), the pure magical one (5F, [(MA+ Y) / 2] * MA), and even the physical one (31, [(PA+ Y) / 2] * PA) all work great.

Well, that's nice to know. Although, I have to ask: you're sure it's not just the variable you're using for Y that makes it seem like it's the same?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 27, 2010, 09:18:03 pm
QuotePhilsov, I don't think you understood my skillset swap.

No, I get it.  But again, I want all classes to have access to all innates.  Thus, if a class cannot learn X ability, they will get X innately.  This is also why Ninjas are keeping innate two-swords (I can't think of any other class that fits better), Mediators monster talk, and chemists throw item.  Innate martial arts to summoner is one hell of a mystical hand-wave.

QuoteDare I ask how long each character's ability list is now (not what's in them, just how many to get an idea of how much the changes buffed them)? I imagine Ramza's sitting close to 16 now, at least.

Heh, not that much longer.  2 for Ramza, 2 for Gaf, 2 for musty, 1 for meliadoul, 1 for Worker 8 (plus work tweaking).  

So... Ramza's at 11 atm.  

QuoteCleave deals 50% of user's max HP or target's max HP? If user's, then yes, it seems cool for the Squire. If it's target's, then still probably yes though make it Dark Element (if possible) so Zodiacs will be immune.

target, and surely dark elemental.  

QuoteI would change the name of either Pierce of Piercing Strike, but yes, both abilities seem awesome.

Indeed, just some c/p from the skillset thread.

QuoteThough stuff like Heavy Arrow - will those work with non-ranged weapons? I'm assuming (and hoping) no for consistency's sake, but you never know.

No, there isn't a "requires ranged weapon" flag for me to toggle.  It's weapon range for the moment.

QuoteI think you have to limit to "Requires Sword" too because it acts really awkward with distance weapons from what little I've seen. So...yeah.

iirc, that only works on abilities that deal "weapon" damage.  To circumvent this I'm using the pure PA * WP formula (2d?) from swordskills.

Quote[Piercing Strike] uses Death's formula, doesn't it? Which means that it won't affect Undead and uses MA, right?

It'd heal the undead and is more affected by Faith than MA, but the success rate is ramped up to max to help out -- but I may give it to a mage class yet.  

QuoteI thought the Dance and Bard formulas didn't take status, though, outside of Nameless Dance and Nameless Song slot's being hardcorded, respectively.

Ha.  Blipped out for a second; turns out the only non-faith based abilities that heal/dmg for X% also have that nasty status pre-req thing.  Meh.  Poor things are scrapped.

QuoteSalve and Execute seem kind of out of place "flavor-wise". What formula would you even be using for Execute anyway? The Death formula?

FF3 hunters had access to white magic and FF5 animals sometimes helped out.  Meanwhile FFTA hunters rocked the Oust ability which is basically the same thing only it only worked vs monsters.  But, yes, Death formula which is again marred by the whole Faith thing.  

Quoteyou're sure it's not just the variable you're using for Y that makes it seem like it's the same?

Positive.  My level 99 time mage (7 PA, 25 MA, MAU, neutral compat -- all Y's are 4 btw) -- is rocking 35 damage on the physical panels, 165 for the hybrid panels, and 462 for the magical panels.  Vive le elemental~

Edit:  Shotgunning formulas into elemental, 17 (all damage but 1, faith based), 2F (Night Sword), 34 (Chakra), and 37 (Dash?) work.  1E (Truth) only works for a single blow.  1C (% to work) doesn't work with its assigned status.  Seems a bit sporadic but its able to take in several (most?) formulas no problem.  Where'd r999's say otherwise?

Edit2:  Yes, I can make the movement abilities like Any Weather/Any Ground support slots instead, but I doubt it'll change much if anything.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 27, 2010, 09:43:03 pm
Comments:
1. There are 3 % HP damage formulas.  Death's formula, which deals X% HP damage, heals undead, and inflicts some status at 100%.  Demi's formula, which deals X% HP damage, is faith dependent, and can take a status and element.  Then there's the unused formula 53, which deals X% HP damage, takes status and elemental, and is dependent only on MA, and has no oddities with undead.  I'd suggest you use that one.
2. If you use damage formula 0 or 2, you must have equip sword or guns can exploit for 999 damage, but I think you already knew that.
3. Song and dance do take status, but if you set them to have a status, they will not modify HP/MP.  R999 had a thread in Help on this.
4. What's fixed about geomancer is their ability to take MP costs or silenced (never) and their ability to be mimed or tied to terrain (always).  The damage formula can be modified, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on March 27, 2010, 09:50:42 pm
Quote from: "philsov"No, I get it.  But again, I want all classes to have access to all innates.  Thus, if a class cannot learn X ability, they will get X innately.  This is also why Ninjas are keeping innate two-swords (I can't think of any other class that fits better), Mediators monster talk, and chemists throw item.  Innate martial arts to summoner is one hell of a mystical hand-wave.

Does it have to be Summoner? Couldn't you just give Innate Martial Arts to Squire (or Dancer)?

Something that would make sense but still wouldn't make the class that got it the new overpowered class that Monk is.

Quote from: "philsov"iirc, that only works on abilities that deal "weapon" damage.  To circumvent this I'm using the pure PA * WP formula (2d?) from swordskills.

Wait. That only works with formula 2D?

...Damn it.

Quote from: "philsov"FF3 hunters had access to white magic and FF5 animals sometimes helped out.

You appear to have misunderstood me, which I guess is my fault for being vague.

I didn't mean "why are Archers healing?" I meant "why are Archers healing things like Petrify or Frog?"

Like I said "flavor" stuff. I like to try to give all my things reasonable effects that have to do something with what the class is about. So why I could understand the class having say, a Salve that cures eye-related ailments and the like, I'm not sure why they would have infinite Maiden Kisses or Infinite Holy Water on hand.

Quote from: "philsov"Positive.  My level 99 time mage (7 PA, 25 MA, MAU, neutral compat -- all Y's are 4 btw) -- is rocking 35 damage on the physical panels, 165 for the hybrid panels, and 462 for the magical panels.  Vive le elemental~

Edit:  Shotgunning formulas into elemental, 17 (all damage but 1, faith based), 2F (Night Sword), 34 (Chakra), and 37 (Dash?) work.  1E (Truth) only works for a single blow.  1C (% to work) doesn't work with its assigned status.  Seems a bit sporadic but its able to take in several (most?) formulas no problem.  Where'd r999's say otherwise?

Well, that's good to know.

I've never spoken to R999, so RavenofRazgriz will have to answer.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on March 27, 2010, 10:07:14 pm
We need him here to reply for himself but apparently he said he couldn't change geomancer's formula to something else without reseting to what geomancer had innately (24).  As you just shown, that's not true.

1C (bard) works, or so he says, when assigned a status (and just loses healing), but I'm willing to bet the problem is that the 10 slots for elemental attacks are hard-coded to be tied to terrain, exist only in the elemental skillset, and probably only accept formulas that modify stats.

EDIT:
See viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4725 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4725) (last 4 posts) and viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4868 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4868) (last post on page 1).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: R999 on March 27, 2010, 10:52:17 pm
^Regarding Geomancy, I have only tested with the Tri-flame and Rafa / Malak formulas. All of which only hit one time even with the X value set at > 1, and the damage appears to be that of using [formula 24], that was why I had stopped testing with the Geomancy abilities and came to that above conclusion. I'll take your word for it that it works with other formulas, although just to make sure, I would double check to see if the X and Y values are taken into factor correctly.

Both the Bard and Dancer formulas actually do inflict statuses. You can verify this easily -- by adding a status to all of the Songs and Dances --and they should work correctly.  Other than that though, I am not 100% sure if they would work on other ability slots.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 27, 2010, 10:55:12 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Heh, not that much longer.  2 for Ramza, 2 for Gaf, 2 for musty, 1 for meliadoul, 1 for Worker 8 (plus work tweaking

So... Ramza's at 11 atm.  

Less than I was expecting, especially for Gafgarion.  Heh.  

I'm guessing you haven't recreated the old Cheer Up, etc. yet if Ramza's numbers are so low.

Quote from: "philsov"target, and surely dark elemental.

Passes for me, then.  Only thing is that it seems a bit silly with bows.  Force it to have 1 range?

Then again, maybe I'm just being too conservative, because

Quote from: "philsov"No, there isn't a "requires ranged weapon" flag for me to toggle.  It's weapon range for the moment.

Ah.  Then just rename it I suppose.

Quote from: "philsov"It'd heal the undead and is more affected by Faith than MA, but the success rate is ramped up to max to help out -- but I may give it to a mage class yet.

You could always buff the Archer's MA Multiplier as well.  As long as it's not too high it shouldn't be a big deal.

Quote from: "philsov"Edit2:  Yes, I can make the movement abilities like Any Weather/Any Ground support slots instead, but I doubt it'll change much if anything.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a bunch of abilities that work as mildly useful innates and niche support abilities than a bunch of abilities that are mostly useless if they're not innate.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on March 28, 2010, 04:46:03 pm
QuoteDoes it have to be Summoner? Couldn't you just give Innate Martial Arts to Squire (or Dancer)?

Quite frankly any class with innate martial arts and a 100+ PAM will see some big numbers at level 99 just due to PA scaling and fists' quadratic formula.  Even on a class with an 80 PAM, they can see numbers of ~648 from a two swords + fist combo.

QuoteWait. That only works with formula 2D?

The glitch occurs with "weapon strike".  Sword skill (with a null K value) is a programmed PA*WP strike so it should be fine without it.  Haven't implemented and tested yet, though.

QuoteI didn't mean "why are Archers healing?" I meant "why are Archers healing things like Petrify or Frog?"

Seemed to synch up with Squire's Heal.  Between Basic Skill and ?Archery?, they've got all the bases covered.  Besides, I think another way to remove undead should be present anyways.  Item's had it too good.

QuoteLess than I was expecting, especially for Gafgarion. Heh.

I'm guessing you haven't recreated the old Cheer Up, etc. yet if Ramza's numbers are so low.

Eh, gotta spread the love and despite ability consolidiation (all monsters can take on Choco Attack btw :D), there's still a lot of new stuff I wanna pump in.  Ramza already gained a new cheer up like ability (100% Br+10 move), and then one of Gaf's new abilities via crystal.  Hadn't done much else with the lad.

*downloads item list*
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on March 28, 2010, 06:51:45 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Seemed to synch up with Squire's Heal.  Between Basic Skill and ?Archery?, they've got all the bases covered.  Besides, I think another way to remove undead should be present anyways.  Item's had it too good.

Archers with the Archery skillset?  No.

Gawd no.

Call it... IDFK.   Hunting Skill?  Then again, that'd be more fitting of a "Hunter" than an "Archer".

Quote from: "philsov"Eh, gotta spread the love and despite ability consolidiation (all monsters can take on Choco Attack btw :D), there's still a lot of new stuff I wanna pump in.  Ramza already gained a new cheer up like ability (100% Br+10 move), and then one of Gaf's new abilities via crystal.  Hadn't done much else with the lad.

Ah.  So you're not really finalized on that either, yet.  Got it.

It's good to know you're enjoying all the ability consolidation and creation, at least.  =p

Quote from: "philsov"*downloads item list*

Enjoy.

Also, to comment on the Ninja Sword WP being boosted... that'd be giving Thieves a sizable power boost pending how much WP is being gained.  Without innate Concentrate it might not be that big a deal, but I'm making sure you remember that at least.  =p
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 01, 2010, 11:13:50 pm
Heh, looks like when the forum got restored we lost the new posts that were in place of the ones we already lost.

Poor thread, every time we get to page 32 we get set back almost the entire page.   We also lost Eternal's entire post AGAIN.

Heh.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 12:50:52 am
Hey, if losing a post that I readily have on hand is the price to be paid to have gotten the Wiki back, so be it.

Quote from: "Eternal248"Since Raven has so eloquently reminded that I should post my ideas in this thread, I may as well give it a go. Not sure if you'll be fond of 'em all, but here are some of the major things I've done on my patch thus far. I'll break it up into smaller categories for easier reference. Apologies in advance if I shift between Vanilla's and WotL's Translation. I use WotL's translation for skills/items in my patch, so I'll probably shift between the two.

1) Jobs
-Squires are Onion Knights now, meaning they retain a few of their old skills (losing some skills to other jobs, though) but have the ability to equip whatever pleases them. They also have innate Equip Change and Defend, for versatility.

-5 Base Jobs (thanks to you for the idea, Phil): Onion Knight, Chemist, Hunter, Black Mage, White Mage

-Changed the Archer to Hunter, which has a variety of status shots, as well as Dragonslayer (Doom on a Dragon), Aim (100% attack), Barrage, and Doubleshot. The latter two have some animation issues, but those should be able to be fixed (hopefully)

-Chemist has Innate: Move-Find, Maintenance, and Throw Item

-Thief has Innate: Concentrate, a la 1.3

-Hunter has Innate: Poach

-Time Mage has Innate: Teleport, but their base Move is reduced to 1, meaning they can still benefit from Battle Boots and the Move+ abilities, but they'll have to work for it. Teleport can no longer be learned. The same holds true for Ninja and their Two Swords ability- they have it innately, but it can no longer be used by other jobs.

-Mediators are very much like Beastmasters now, having Innate: Monster Talk and Monster Skill. Not sure if that was in 1.3 or not.

-Oracles are totally revamped now, taking the place of the Calculator on the Job Tree, and they use Predict, which calls forth natural disasters, taking a long time to charge, but damaging the entire field. They also have Condemn to Doom foes.

-Geomancers have Innate: Any Ground, Move on Lava, and Walk on Water.

-Samurai have Innate: Move in Water

-Calculators have been replaced by Enchanters, which are now in the Oracle's spot on the Job Wheel. They use a variety of statuses, but a few have been allocated to the Time Mage, i.e. Break and Disable.

-A bunch of jobs can use new weapons, i.e. Monks using Poles, Chemists using Books, Knights using Axes, Black Mages using Daggers, etc.

-Bards are immune to Silence; likewise, Dancers are immune to Don't Move and they have new skills, some target enemies, others- allies.

-Holy Knights are Paladins now, being able to use supportive White Magic, Exorcise (Dead on an Undead), Cover (Golem), Bulwark (Protect, Shell, Defend but Don't Move on self), and Holy Blade (holy-elemental sword attack)

-Dark Knights are almost the exact opposite, they use skills that damage the enemy (and themselves, in the process) such as Souleater and Darkness, as well as the status move Deathbringer (Dark damage around self + Death), Night Sword (unevadeable sword attack- no longer drains)

-Meliadoul gains skills which benefits her against mages (which are aplenty late-game), using skills such as Rasp to damage MP, Silencestrike (weapon damage and Silence) and Magic Ward (Reflect on self)

-T.G. Cid has gained a variety of Thunder magicks, as well as some swordskills and Cover.

-Beowulf has gained some basic magicks and the sword skills Cid didn't get as well as Temper, which raises PA.

-Monsters have remained the same in my patch, except for using 1.3's reactions.

2) Skills
-Dash and Stone now have the potential to deal more damage and, as Raven has experienced, typically do.

-Break Skills are the same as Vanilla, except slightly more accurate and about half as expensive.

-Martial Arts is pretty much the same, except Chakra and Stigma Magic only target oneself and no other units.

-Geomancy ranges depend on the Geomancy Skill in question. Rarer terrain skills, such as Lava Ball and Blizzard have a huge AoE, whereas more common skills such as Hell Ivy have a range of 2 and no AoE.

-As mentioned above, Hunter Skills are totally different now, no more Charge.

-Ninja can throw fewer items, but they have new Ninja Bombs, which don't deal damage, but rather, inflict statuses on hit. It doesn't work for me yet, as I need an ASM to do so, but this is FFT: ASM'd, after all! I used Stink, Oil, and Smoke Bombs in my patch (Poison, Oil, and Blind respectively)

-Draw Out can now hit allies as well as enemies; Kiyomori and Masamune only target the caster now.

-Summons are quite a bit more expensive, but they are meant to be learned on hit now (kind of a reference to passing a Summon's trial in other FF's), Summoners are also slightly rarer in my patch, making Summons kind of a difficult skillset to master (rightfully so, IMO).

-Lich inflicts Undead and deals Dark, percentage damage.

-Faerie revives, a la 1.3.

-Odin inflicts Death in a straight line.

-Leviathan drowns the field, damaging ally and foe alike.

-Titan damages the area surrounding the caster.

-Time Magic has access to some of Final Fantasy XII's Time Magicks, such as Disable and Break, as well as Gravi 2

-Black Magic is totally revamped. Each elemental family has its own range. Ice hits in a straight line, with damage and range improving with each level. Fire hits around the caster, with damage and range also improving each level. Bolt hits randomly in an area multiple times, but each level increases the potential AoE of the spell, meaning higher levels yield higher damage, but also miss more. Also, due to Bolt's formula, it ignores Innocent. Replacing the level 4 spells is a new chain of spells- Prism. Prism deals all-elemental damage, and are more akin to Vanilla's Black Magic in terms of range.

-White Magic has lost Protect and Shell 2 to make room for Dia, Dia 2, and Dia 3. Dia inflicts various statuses onto an Undead, Dia 2 inflicts Dead on an Undead, and Dia 3 outright crystallizes an Undead target. Cure and Cure 3 restore a large amount of HP to a single target, whereas Cure 2 and Cure 4 don't heal as much, but heals in an AoE.

-Talk Skill has remained the same as 1.3, for the most part, but I'm thinking of removing Invite.

-Algus gains 2 new skills unique to him- Berate and Infuriate- the former reducing Brave by 10, the latter inflicting Berserk.

-Wiegraf has become more of a support unit with his Leadership skillset, using Inspire to raise his party's stats and he has White Magic to buff and heal his comrades. He also has access to Holy Blade, which deals holy damage.

-Olan's Astrology skillset has access to Meteor, Gravi 2, and Condemn (my Oracle's version) now.

3) Weapons
-All Knives increase Speed by 1.

-Replaced Zorlin Shape with the 'Tonberrian', which inflicts instant Death. DOINK!

-Ninja Knives all inflict various statuses, meaning the target of a Ninja with Ninja Knives is most likely going to be crippled.
a) Ninja Blade- Poison
b) Kunai- Nothing, but has 25% EVD compared to the 20% of the other Ninja Knives
c) Kodachi- 12 WP, compared to the next Ninja Knife, which has 10.
d) Ninja Longblade- Silence
e) Spell Edge- Don't Act
f) Sasuke Knife- Don't Move
g) Iga- Sleep
h) Koga- Death

-Blood Sword now has 6 WP and is Dark Elemental

-Coral Sword is now Water Elemental

-Ancient Sword is Earth Elemental now, and doesn't inflict a status

-Rune Sword casts Silence on strike now

-Created the 'Ultima Weapon', which deals damage equal to lost HP.

-Replaced Materia Blade with 'Buster Sword', which is 2-handed and raises all stats by 1. I'm going to force it on Cloud at the Zarghidas Battle, so you won't have it until then.

-Knighswords have 1.3's stats, for the most part.

-Chaos Blade becomes the Durandal, which is Dark elemental and has 24 WP, and is received as a reward for beating Yiazmat in my Deep Dungeon.

-Each Katana has its own element, typically a rare element.
a) Asura- Fire
b) Kotetsu- Dark
c) Osafune- Water
d) Murasame- Water
e) Heaven's Cloud- Wind
f) Kiyomori- Earth
g) Muramasa- Dark
h) Kiku-ichimoji- Earth
i) Masamune- Holy (also the only one-handed Katana, so it can be used with the Genji Gear)
j) Chirijiraden- Fire

-Axes still deal random damage, but have the potential to cast the Break skills. This means a double attack if the target does not have the equipped gear.
a) Battle Axe- Shield Break
b) Giant Axe- Head Break
c) Slasher- Armor Break

-Rods are generally the same as 1.3 with a few key differences.

-Rod and Poison Rod both boost MA by 1, with Poison Rod being Earth elemental and casting Poison 25% of the time.

-Dragon Rod is Fire elemental

-Staves are a mixed bag now. Half of them are meant to be used on enemies, the other half are meant to bash your allies' skulls in to buff them.
a) White Staff casts Esuna 25% of the time.
b) Serpent Staff is every element except Dark and may cast Reflect.
c) Gold Staff casts Reraise 25% of the time.

-Flails are the same as Vanilla, with a Water-elemental Flail replacing the Flame Whip.

-Guns have been renamed to XII's gun names, and the elemental guns no longer shoot spells, but rather, normal elemental bullets.

-Silver Bow is Holy elemental and has a 25% chance of casting Exorcise

-Windslash Bow casts... well... Wind Slash (aka Kamaitachi)

-Replaced Perseus Bow with Sagittarius Bow, which can cast Rasp on hit (reference to Shemhazai in XII, who represents Sagittarius)

-Each Book casts a Talk Skill at 25% chance now.
a) Battle Dictionary casts Insult
b) Monster Dictionary casts Threaten
c) Papyrus casts Mimic Daravon
d) Madlemgen (sp?) casts Invite

-Each Spear increases Jump by 2.

-Gungnir has been added, it's Thunder elemental and has a 25% chance of casting Odin.

-Javelin II has become the Zodiac Spear.

-Dragon's Whisker has a 25% chance of casting Dragonslayer.

-Whale Whisker is Water elemental now.

-Bags and Carpets are largely like their 1.3 counterparts.

4) Armor
-Shields use 1.3 stats, with a few changes.

-Ice and Flame Shield no longer absorb, but halve their respective elements. Ice Shield is weak to Fire, and the Flame Shield is weak to Water.

-Created the Ensanguined Plate, which has 50%/35% EVD, at the cost of Blind, Poison, Oil, and Slow.

-Escutcheon II has been renamed the Zodiac Escutcheon.

-Hats and Armor are largely the same as 1.3's Hats/Armor, with the exception of some HP and MP values.

-White Robe halves Fire, Ice, and Thunder and now comes with a starting Protect and Shell, but its HP value is crap.

5) Accessories
-Spiked Boots grant 2 Jump, instead of 1.

-Rubber Shoes have their thunder-nullifying ability, as well as 10% P-EVD.

-Bracer increases PA by 2, rather than 3.

-Defense Ring has its old traits, as well as Starting: Protect

-Magic Ring halves Earth, Wind, and Water.

-Cursed Ring nullifies elemental affinities by making its wearer weak to and halve all elements. (Thanks to PX for that idea.)

-Diamond Armlet nullifes Poison and Frog.

-Jade Armlet nullifies Earth and halves Dark.

-108 Gems strengthens Holy and Dark, and only protects from rarer statuses, such as Undead, Berserk, Blood Suck, and Stop.

-N-Kai Armlet nullifies Dark.

-Guardian's Bangle grants immunity to Don't Move/Act, as gives Always: Defend.

-Cloaks are the same as their 1.3 counterparts.

-Not an accessory, but Hi-Potions and X-Potions restore more HP, but, as with all items, their price has been severely increased, making it harder to purchase and spam items.

6) General Gameplay Stuff
-I've changed the music and weather for many scenes.

-Your starting party has 1 job from each of the 5 base classes, with an extra Chemist for posterity.

-Items are very expensive, and you will need to make smarter decisions on what you need to buy.

-New spell quotes for most abilities.

-WotL naming for most things, but not the actual script.

There's more, but I don't want to bog you all down with more info. Sorry if it got a little wordy, but those are the major things I've done for my patch thus far. Feel free to use what you will for ASM'd. I can contribute spell quotes and other things for ASM'd as well, if you so wish.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 02, 2010, 01:32:48 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Hey, if losing a post that I readily have on hand is the price to be paid to have gotten the Wiki back, so be it.

Heh.  I suppose.

Also, what post of mine were you going to reply to earlier?   One of the ones I made to formerdeathcorps about how Hamedo and Golem are broken independent of each other, how gender splitting is an arbitrary and roundabout way to solve problems that often need more than that gender splitting to be adequately solved, etc?  Or a different one I can't recall either?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 08:45:20 am
The former. I was largely just going to say that I agreed with you, but there was something in that I can't specifically remember.

Oh well. Maybe it will come back to me. You seem to have resolved it with formerdeathcrops.

Anyway, I've been editing items and more things along the lines of your Proposed item changes, so I'll try to test those out. I'm beginning to think that I'm almost already ready to have a very early beta-version of my patch once I get Blue Mage finally hammered out--I can't believe I had "Night" as a skill for so long--and pick two more classes.

But that's probably two weeks off and unrelated to the thread.

So...uh, is Thief only getting Muddle as a new skill?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Eternal on April 02, 2010, 09:20:43 am
Thanks for having my old post on hand, Damned. It saves me a bunch of time from having to repost. =P
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 10:20:59 am
No need to thank me. It's not like I was doing it out of altruism or anything.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 02, 2010, 01:41:56 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"The former. I was largely just going to say that I agreed with you, but there was something in that I can't specifically remember.

Oh well. Maybe it will come back to me. You seem to have resolved it with formerdeathcrops.

Anyway, I've been editing items and more things along the lines of your Proposed item changes, so I'll try to test those out. I'm beginning to think that I'm almost already ready to have a very early beta-version of my patch once I get Blue Mage finally hammered out--I can't believe I had "Night" as a skill for so long--and pick two more classes.

But that's probably two weeks off and unrelated to the thread.

Glad to see that list is helping people then, since I'm still being too much of a lazy bastard to do my own entire patch.

You saw my reply to your Holy Mitre question, right?  I think that post got lost in the shuffle.  If you didn't, yeah, the Absorb: Dark is a typo from a time where I was trying to save a proc slot by having it piggyback on Excalibur's ability before realizing Excalibur still had Initial: Haste.  I forgot to make Absorb: Dark into Cancel: Dark when I posted it and didn't fix it in the update.

I should update that list with some mods to Flame/Ice Shields to give them each an Absorb/Half/Weak, fix that typo, redo Polearms AGAIN, etc., as that list is still definitely a WIP in some areas...

Quote from: "The Damned"So...uh, is Thief only getting Muddle as a new skill?

I think so, but its infuriatingly good.  When I was testing the really old ASM'd beta, Muddle made Mandalia Plains a bitch.  It lets them disable male characters and rob them blind, too.

...That, and I don't think I could think of another ability to give Thieves anyway, myself.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 01:57:49 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Glad to see that list is helping people then, since I'm still being too much of a lazy bastard to do my own entire patch.

Despite being such a lazy bastard, my patch is pretty the only thing I've been productive about recently. So your ideas are at the very least some useful things to compare against as I said earlier.

QuoteYou saw my reply to your Holy Mitre question, right?

Yes, I did.

QuoteI should update that list with some mods to Flame/Ice Shields to give them each an Absorb/Half/Weak, fix that typo, redo Polearms AGAIN, etc., as that list is still definitely a WIP in some areas....

Why are you redoing Polearms again? (Outside of Dragon Whisker or whatever it's called.)

QuoteI think so, but its infuriatingly good.  When I was testing the really old ASM'd beta, Muddle made Mandalia Plains a bitch.  It lets them disable male characters and rob them blind, too.

...That, and I don't think I could think of another ability to give Thieves anyway, myself.

I thought that Muddle was just confusion (from the name); I appear to be mistaken.

As for other skills, I can think of a few and there's always FFCompendium (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/thief.shtml) for ideas.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 02, 2010, 02:04:49 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Why are you redoing Polearms again? (Outside of Dragon Whisker or whatever it's called.)

I don't like how some of them turned out.  Oberisk is automatically useless once you get Holy Lance, etc.  I want to think of more cool ideas in the vein of the 0% W-EV Partisan.   Maybe allow one of the weaker ones to be wielded by Two Swords, heh.

Quote from: "The Damned"I thought that Muddle was just confusion (from the name); I appear to be mistaken.

As for other skills, I can think of a few and there's always FFCompendium (http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/jobs/thief.shtml) for ideas.

I see.  It is just instant-Confusion at Charm success rates, but considering Thieves get the early turns, it can be rather debilitating since Confused characters are often more-than special.  I only noted males specifically because they still have Charm for the females.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 07:12:43 pm
Ugh, having to redo Dancer was a pain in the ass.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"I don't like how some of them turned out.  Oberisk is automatically useless once you get Holy Lance, etc.  I want to think of more cool ideas in the vein of the 0% W-EV Partisan.   Maybe allow one of the weaker ones to be wielded by Two Swords, heh.

Somehow missed the mention of Two Swords when I read this earlier.

So philsov is assuredly keeping Two Swords around?

QuoteI see.  It is just instant-Confusion at Charm success rates, but considering Thieves get the early turns, it can be rather debilitating since Confused characters are often more-than special.  I only noted males specifically because they still have Charm for the females.

I see. Confusion is rather...pesky and Thieves are perhaps the class best-suited to take advantage of it. They really need a least a couple of skills that bypass Maintenance.

I'm guessing you were still able to beat Mandalia Plains, though, correct?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 02, 2010, 07:16:58 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"So philsov is assuredly keeping Two Swords around?

As far as I know.  He's going out of his way to keep it separate from Martial Arts as far as I know but that's about it since lacking a Shield actually has the potential to mean something in ASM'd.

Quote from: "The Damned"I see. Confusion is rather...pesky and Thieves are perhaps the class best-suited to take advantage of it. They really need a least a couple of skills that bypass Maintenance.

I'm guessing you were still able to beat Mandalia Plains, though, correct?

Of course.  One try, IIRC, but that may be because I'm used to 1.3-levels of stupidly hard (Engineers! Rage!) and know that fight well enough to pretty much never lose it as long as I have Item and a Chemist or two.  Doesn't mean getting someone Muddled before I got my first turn and then having him get the first turn on my side didn't suck ass, though.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 02, 2010, 07:23:55 pm
Understood.

I had thought you meant Two Hands since that would make more sense (with a spear) and it would still bring up the "do I want a Shield or not?" question. I'm guessing that all spears can be Two Handed already anyway, though, so that's probably a moot point.

*light bulb goes off overhead*

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I finally figured out what my 20th class is going to be. So I'll probably be gone the rest of the day.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 02, 2010, 07:47:03 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Understood.

I had thought you meant Two Hands since that would make more sense (with a spear) and it would still bring up the "do I want a Shield or not?" question. I'm guessing that all spears can be Two Handed already anyway, though, so that's probably a moot point.

Yeah, Polearms can be Two Handed.  I was thinking a weaker one being Two Swords-able because of how Two Swords > Two Hands, meaning that Polearm keeps up nicely later on.  I know its far harder to justify Two Hands'ing a Spear, but a little magic in the description box could make it work.

Quote from: "The Damned"*light bulb goes off overhead*

]Now if you'll excuse me, I think I finally figured out what my 20th class is going to be. So I'll probably be gone the rest of the day.

Heh.  Cya then.  Good luck with it.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on April 02, 2010, 10:19:42 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
Quote from: "The Damned"Understood.

I had thought you meant Two Hands since that would make more sense (with a spear) and it would still bring up the "do I want a Shield or not?" question. I'm guessing that all spears can be Two Handed already anyway, though, so that's probably a moot point.

Yeah, Polearms can be Two Handed.  I was thinking a weaker one being Two Swords-able because of how Two Swords > Two Hands, meaning that Polearm keeps up nicely later on.  I know its far harder to justify Two Hands'ing a Spear, but a little magic in the description box could make it work.

A really heavy spear?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 03, 2010, 01:27:01 am
Quote from: "Dokurider"A really heavy spear?

Heh, something like that.  I actually have an updated .txt file to post after working on it tonight.

I think I may have had an idea to squeeze out another ability slot, but I don't know.  All monsters can be placed safely on one ability for their "standard" attack (eg Choco Attack).  We established that before.  What if a human is placed on that same ability, animation-wise?   Choco Attack etc use the 01 Dmg_[Weapon] formula so the damage should be the same as the attack command for humans, but would the sprite glitch in performing it, would it swing its weapon, or what?

I'm asking since if a human can also make use of this ability as a basic attack without glitching out, we could edit the animation on the "Doubleshot" ability to work with monsters, then make it their "Attack" ability, flagging it so the ability name doesn't show up to not cause oddities with the Doubleshot proc itself.

This way, monsters and doubleshotting would be working off the same ability, and if the animation for humans isn't too wonky, the Doubleshot proc itself will actually (hopefully) be an additional attack and not a cool but out of place explosion.   If we can do it, it should be done since we're already doing our best to squeeze every little bit of efficiency from our poor FFT ISO.



Also, an even-more updated equipment list.  Overview is a hopefully breaking down of the Polearm tiers, removal of Guard Gauntlets, balancing of Iron Fan, more typo fixing, and a touch up on Flame and Ice Shields.  Actual changes include:

Short Edge is now 10 WP, 0% W-EV, 25% Doubleshot

Spear is now "A specially designed polearm for easy one-handed use.", 9 WP, 10% W-EV, PA +1, usable with Two Swords
Mythril Spear is now "Spear with mythril head. Designed for deflecting attacks."  10 WP, 15 or 20% W-EV (pending), PA +1
Oberisk is now "Huge steeple-shaped spear that pierces the enemy's defense."  13 WP, 10% W-EV, PA +1, Cancel: Protect, Shell, Reflect, Defending
Dragon Whisker is now 17 WP, 10% W-EV, PA +1, 25% Fire 3/4 (both are weaker than Holy, so either should be fine)

Iron Fan is now 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Always: Defending, Two Hands Only

Flame Shield is now Absorb: Fire, Half: Dark, Weak: Ice, Water
Ice Shield is now Absorb: Ice, Half: Earth, Weak: Fire

Holy Mitre now correctly says "Cancel: Dark"

Guard Gauntlet is dead and has no replacement at this time.  Unsure whether what replacement comes to be should be an accessory to directly replace Power Gauntlet on the item tree or possibly be ubergear.

While the post containing your dissents about the previous list is gone, philsov, I think this addresses most of them besides the whole wanting to redo 1.3 Staffs and Katana procs points (the latter because I happen to prefer the listed procs over just a DO proc - I actually put a deal of research into them).  I'll attach the txt file on this post for the people who want to read my updated item notes or just keep an updated list on hand.  (I generally put a new note update each time I edit something, and leave the previous one there so the people reading can see how each category evolved.  That, and so I personally don't forget what ideas of mine were stupid and end up repeating them again.)  Hopefully the item lists and discussions are helping you get things smoothed out more quickly, Phil.  =p
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on April 03, 2010, 04:13:04 am
Perhaps you should consider using Demi2 proc for one or two of the weaker items. I also think their needs to be a Zombie Proc as well. Can we use Items as procs? If we can, can we make a Phoenix Down proc? Or how about a Raise or Raise 2 proc? Death (the spell) proc? Difference Proc?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 03, 2010, 08:05:02 am
Quote from: "Dokurider"Perhaps you should consider using Demi2 proc for one or two of the weaker items. I also think their needs to be a Zombie Proc as well. Can we use Items as procs? If we can, can we make a Phoenix Down proc? Or how about a Raise or Raise 2 proc? Death (the spell) proc? Difference Proc?

I'd like to use Demi 2 as a proc as well, but I don't even think there are too many weapons you can get away with putting it on without redesigning it or otherwise taking a lot of creative liberty.  I did toss basic Demi on Kotetsu though, myself.  Zombie, I'd really love to have a crossbow that proc's Zombie and uses the Healing Staff damage formula, but I'm pretty sure that formula is No Status.  Standard damage + Zombie I considered, but something about it seemed possibly too good because Zombie is an awesome status when used correctly.  Then again, it'd be 25% Zombie, so it probably wouldn't be bad.

Items can't be used to proc, but procing Raise or Raise 2 (in order to kill undead bros) is easy enough.  Same with Death to heal them / kill non-Undeads.  Difference works as far as I know, but the only problem is that you can only "technically" proc the first 255 abilities on the list (up through the final Bio 3), so you'd need to switch it with something else on the list and fix the skillsets/monsters/etc that use those abilities to reflect the change.  Hence why procs like Seal Evil or most monster abilities are pretty rare in my list - it's not because I didn't want to use them, that's for sure.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 03, 2010, 01:19:32 pm
Okay, I finally finished what I was doing last night. I would have gotten back sooner, but I kind of got distracted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxn0Xfqkgw&feature=player_embedded#) by Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9SmsBcqBHM&feature=related) (and fucking atrocious re-design)?

After fixing up Wizard, I decided to count the amount of unused jobs and redundant & unused skill sets.

The amount of the former is actually not as much as I would have liked (29 jobs and that's including that one of the Assassin jobs is almost completely redundant).

The amount of the latter is...absurd. 138 skill sets, give or take 5, are either completely redundant or out-and-out useless.

What the hell.

Have you done anything regarding this amount of supposed space, philsov?

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Heh.  Cya then.  Good luck with it.

Why thank you.

As for your latest, I looked through it and I'm guessing the only changes that I noticed in the document that you didn't note in the post was that in your thought process under hats, it still says Holy Miter Absorbs Dark instead of Cancels Dark and that you make no mention of there being a problem with Cherche despite the fact that you changed both Iron Fan and Guard Gauntlets.

Aegis EDIT: Speaking of a possible problem with Defend, wouldn't Cherche (and well, the Defend action by itself) with Aegis Shield give you 100% M-EV?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 03, 2010, 02:21:21 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Why thank you.

As for your latest, I looked through it and I'm guessing the only changes that I noticed in the document that you didn't note in the post was that in your thought process under hats, it still says Holy Miter Absorbs Dark instead of Cancels Dark and that you make no mention of there being a problem with Cherche despite the fact that you changed both Iron Fan and Guard Gauntlets.

Aegis EDIT: Speaking of a possible problem with Defend, wouldn't Cherche (and well, the Defend action by itself) with Aegis Shield give you 100% M-EV?

I didn't edit thought process on purpose because I like people to see the flow of my notes in the hopes it'll remedy questions before they're asked.  I should've made a NOTE-EDIT, though.  I will next time I update it, since I'm sure there's more to be done.  Cherche should've been noted somewhere, but it slipped my mind at the time.

EDIT is why Iron Fan is specifically edited to be Two Hands, honestly.  I'd like to remedy this with Cherche (I kinda hate the idea of Perfumes being broken accessories in general, though I know they're rare and blah blah), but I don't have any ideas to improve upon 1.3 Cherche.  I don't think it should be reverted to Vanilla and given Reflect, but nothing striking comes to mind since Salty Rage is already Protect/Shell.  Then again, this also makes me want to add something to Float Boots so that Cherche doesn't completely retcon them... and take Cherche's evasion 1.3 gave it away so that it doesn't retcon Feather Mantle.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 03, 2010, 02:33:44 pm
I can't really help you there, I'm afraid.

I was initially going to get rid of all-female only items since they're generally overpowered pieces of crap, but I decided to keep Perfumes solely because I changed them entirely. They're a more "seasonal" thing so to speak and so they're not broken like Chantage (though I can't make them appear in stores, which annoys me); they're completely different from what they once were, so anything I said would be kind of a rather anathema to you wanting to keep things like 1.3 Perfumes.

I also partially changed them to a seasonal thing because I noticed that really aren't that many positive statuses to put into pairs (especially without making the pairs broken).

You could just get rid of Cherche completely and replace it with something else, but that's akin to probably needing to change Cherche completely so it doesn't step on other things like you said. Reverting it back to Float and Reflect just makes it step on Reflect Ring (and Reflect Mail in a way) anyway.

It seems pretty lose-lose, really.

The only thing I could see would maybe making it Halve Wind because of Float being weak to Wind now and maybe giving Feather Boots back Move +1 or giving it Jump +1, but I'm not sure if Float from items make you weak to Float since apparently the Float movement doesn't.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 03, 2010, 03:00:59 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"I can't really help you there, I'm afraid.

I was initially going to get rid of all-female only items since they're generally overpowered pieces of crap, but I decided to keep Perfumes solely because I changed them entirely. They're a more "seasonal" thing so to speak and so they're not broken like Chantage (though I can't make them appear in stores, which annoys me); they're completely different from what they once were, so anything I said would be kind of a rather anathema to you wanting to keep things like 1.3 Perfumes.

I also partially changed them to a seasonal thing because I noticed that really aren't that many positive statuses to put into pairs (especially without making the pairs broken).

You could just get rid of Cherche completely and replace it with something else, but that's akin to probably needing to change Cherche completely so it doesn't step on other things like you said. Reverting it back to Float and Reflect just makes it step on Reflect Ring (and Reflect Mail in a way) anyway.

It seems pretty lose-lose, really.

The only thing I could see would maybe making it Halve Wind because of Float being weak to Wind now and maybe giving Feather Boots back Move +1 or giving it Jump +1, but I'm not sure if Float from items make you weak to Float since apparently the Float movement doesn't.

I'd be fine with pretty much do-overing Cherche (since once I remove Evasion and Defending, I'm at a pre-Vanilla state regardless), same with some other Perfumes, but again ideas are short.

I'm note sure I can see Float Boots with Move +1, as it'd make Germinas Boots fairly useless if I'm remembering things correctly.  Then again, I can't remember right now if the 1h from Float improves Jumping up in the same way Jump +1 does.  If it doesn't, I think Move +1 on bot would be fine.

Cherche: PA +1, Initial: Float, Defending. Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Wind, Earth, Water, Holy, Dark. Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning Wind, Earth, Water, Holy, Dark.

?

This makes it kind of opposite of the current Setiemson, boosting PA instead of MA with Initial Float and Defending to contrast Initial Haste and Transparent  (Defensive vs Offensive), which should be fine as Initial Defending should wear off with the first action a-la Transparent. The Half/Weak all thing on the end is to make it worth using, as the Initial Float/Defending doesn't seem like it'd be enough by itself (unlike Initial Haste/Transparent), and in short causes all Elements to cause neutral damage regardless of the other equipment being worn.  (Yes, I totally got this idea from Arena, but it's the only thing I could find that fit the basic idea of Cherche without just being a rehash of something else already done.)

I think that keeps Feather Mantle, Cherche, and a (modified) Float Boots all viable without them stepping on each other too badly.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 03, 2010, 03:15:04 pm
I guess that sounds fine, but I'm not philsov, so....

As for Float being akin to Jump +1, I believe it does since it's a simple +1 elevation (and Earth negation) and the BGM doesn't say otherwise.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 04, 2010, 12:28:51 am
QuoteSo...uh, is Thief only getting Muddle as a new skill?

Currently, yes.  The problem with a mug-type ability is the glitch with formulas 1/2/5, and I can't think of much that is both unique and worthwhile.

QuoteSo philsov is assuredly keeping Two Swords around?

Oh, certainly.  But I'm leaning more and more towards the monk <--> mage class swap and not having the new "monk" class have martial arts innate.

Besides, I gotta throw melee a bone :)

QuoteHey phil I'm reposting my item list, updated

woot!  out of town atm so I can't delve into more serious things but I should absorb a majority of this into the fold.  Regarding the katana procs -- while your plan is basically the same thing, only cooler -- I just don't like the idea of faith-based % success procs in the hands of a melee-like class.  Maybe the older list had more, but if the only thing is Demi then I can probably nix it for ?Cleave? and we should be good.  Meanwhile, monster abilities are beyond the FF mark so they'll probably be subbed out for a similar human counter part (Comet, Water Ball, Titan, etc).

QuoteHave you done anything regarding this amount of supposed skillset space, philsov?

Oh, certainly.  Those skillsets are EXCELLENT for enemies, in that the AI will auto-learn all abilities without regard to JP cost which gives me complete and utter control of what abilities the enemy does and does not have, if I so choose.  For example, for easytype I crafted 4-ish skillsets for each major magic school and set the mages into one of them, chapter placement pending.  This prevents me from messing with AI % chance to learn and the ability list order to try and steer the herd.  This also enables me to have enemy blue mages with the main skillset learned but none of the unlockables without having to fumble with JP costs.  Plus a lot of DD-type funsies too.  The 1.3 chocomaster's skillset, for example, is just awesome.

QuoteCherche

With initial:defend is a pretty good idea.  I agree they still need some sort of perk, but I don't think normal:all elements is exactly the answer.  I'll plod around some more though.

QuoteFloat

Adds 1 height for all melee attacks and with regards to mobility (higher jumps are easier, and the ability to attack upwards/downwards is shifted).  They are counted at base height when subjected to all abilites.  Least, that's my personal understanding.  However, with float in mind I can make both Feather boots and this at least half/weak wind so its not a liability on the field.  Hell, I may just reshuffle the perfumes all together.  I may even sub out Float for innocent :3
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 04, 2010, 12:54:01 am
Quote from: "philsov"woot!  out of town atm so I can't delve into more serious things but I should absorb a majority of this into the fold.  Regarding the katana procs -- while your plan is basically the same thing, only cooler -- I just don't like the idea of faith-based % success procs in the hands of a melee-like class.  Maybe the older list had more, but if the only thing is Demi then I can probably nix it for ?Cleave? and we should be good.  Meanwhile, monster abilities are beyond the FF mark so they'll probably be subbed out for a similar human counter part (Comet, Water Ball, Titan, etc).

The faith based stuff was mostly Flare and Demi I think.  Might've been one or two others but they can be easily turned into Geomancy if I didn't do so already.

The monster skills, yeah, just make them into Geomancy or something if you don't want to shuffle them around.  I mostly used them because I didn't want things like Water Ball being used as a proc twice, heh.

The last set of updates was mostly what was posted in this thread, though.  I don't think I did much else.  I just like keeping an up to date document available.  Stuff like Flail/Axe WP and such hasn't been adjusted yet though since I can't be bothered to recalc it yet now that I realized I was an idiot with them originally.

Quote from: "philsov"With initial:defend is a pretty good idea.  I agree they still need some sort of perk, but I don't think normal:all elements is exactly the answer.  I'll plod around some more though.

Yeah, I wasn't sure on it either, but it's one of the few things the items so far DON'T do, so it seemed like a cool idea.

Quote from: "philsov"I may even sub out Float for innocent :3

Heh.  Uber-Reflect, but with less bouncing funsies and blocking more spells.  Could be cool.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 04, 2010, 12:58:51 am
Quote from: "philsov"Currently, yes. The problem with a mug-type ability is the glitch with formulas 1/2/5, and I can't think of much that is both unique and worthwhile.

May I ask what type of glitch we're talking about?

Quote from: "philsov"Oh, certainly.  Those skillsets are EXCELLENT for enemies, in that the AI will auto-learn all abilities without regard to JP cost which gives me complete and utter control of what abilities the enemy does and does not have, if I so choose.  For example, for easytype I crafted 4-ish skillsets for each major magic school and set the mages into one of them, chapter placement pending.  This prevents me from messing with AI % chance to learn and the ability list order to try and steer the herd.  This also enables me to have enemy blue mages with the main skillset learned but none of the unlockables without having to fumble with JP costs.

Fair enough, I suppose.

However, I am not understanding why the enemy would auto-learn all abilities regardless of JP cost just because you gave them a dummy set.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 04, 2010, 01:09:10 am
QuoteMay I ask what type of glitch we're talking about?

The glitch where repeatedly selecting the ability will make its predicted (and real) damage increase and increase when equipped with a gun, present with formulas 1, 2, and 5 (maybe more?  whatever does "weapon damage")

QuoteHowever, I am not understanding why the enemy would auto-learn all abilities regardless of JP cost just because you gave them a dummy set.

Hell if I know :D  I just know it works and its glorious.  Its probably some hardcoding introduced to enable Ultima and Zodiac to be learned by the bosses, especially Zodiac.  Since it's a part of the native summoner skillset, its JP has to be VERY high to prevent the AI from ever learning it by accident (disabling learn with JP is simply not an option with the AI).  Also, for whatever godawful reason, Zodiac only has a 90% chance to be learned when you do learn it through either JP (damn you, AI) or by getting smacked with it.  To make sure that Edi a) overcame the 90% and b) actually knew the 9999 JP ability, a HUGE chunk of skillsets were probably flagged as auto-learn and loljpcost.  

Pure speculation, of course.  I'm also the guy who thought that l-i-t-t-l-e m-o-n-e-y was a programmers joke and not the result of a misplaced {delay} command.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 04, 2010, 01:25:07 am
It's present with all the weapon formulas.  The only way to turn it off is to unselect weapon strike, but then, you deal fist damage with a gun, dependent on brave.  That's what I did with mug (so it just deals a fist attack + steal gil).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Timbo on April 04, 2010, 01:31:53 am
You know, maybe I'm crazy FDC but I couldn't your mug to proc to save my life.  It just refused to steal gil of any kind.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 04, 2010, 02:32:16 am
It's only 25%.  I don't think I put additional constraints on steal gil (like equip sword or anything).

EDIT: Next time, please stay on topic and post complaints about my patch in my thread.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Timbo on April 04, 2010, 02:38:27 am
I must of used it like 10 times, on your demo.  On a separate note is the gil stealing part of it hard coded to the Gil Taking slot, by chance?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 04, 2010, 08:30:18 am
Quote from: "philsov"The glitch where repeatedly selecting the ability will make its predicted (and real) damage increase and increase when equipped with a gun, present with formulas 1, 2, and 5 (maybe more?  whatever does "weapon damage")

I suspected as much. This makes me want to test something else out.

Heh, I have like 30 things to test out now.

...Damn it.

Quote from: "philsov"To make sure that Edi a) overcame the 90% and b) actually knew the 9999 JP ability, a HUGE chunk of skillsets were probably flagged as auto-learn and loljpcost.

Some of them are still horribly redundant, though. (Pretty much all boss-related ones, the Use Hands and a couple of others.)

If it's not terribly troublesome, when you can get back to your computer, can you post a list of the ones that you know are flagged as auto-learn so far? It would be extremely useful, if only for those of us with Blue Mages. (I'm going to try to balance the Learn on Rate for most things first and see how that goes; it will probably go poorly but I would like to try.)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 04, 2010, 07:19:56 pm
Quotecan you post a list of the ones that you know are flagged as auto-learn so far?

It starts at 33 and ends at AF, afaik.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Pan on April 06, 2010, 12:16:45 am
Hi guys, long time no see.

Hey Philsov, have you released any version of this yet or is it still in testing? Blue mage, want :( <3
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on April 06, 2010, 12:55:20 am
Nope, nothing released yet.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 06, 2010, 04:21:59 am
Quote from: "Pan"Hi guys, long time no see.

Hey Philsov, have you released any version of this yet or is it still in testing? Blue mage, want :( <3

The only "release" this has so far is a really old beta he gave to me and Sephirot24, IIRC.  It doesn't include any of the recent goodies like revamped Items, skillsets, Blue Mages, new Job Tree, etc. though, so it's really not worth passing around.

He'll probably have something out soon once he's worked out the kinks for Items and some Chapter 1 stuff.   That, and when he learns to use PPFStudio or whatever it is.  Heh.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Eternal on April 06, 2010, 05:12:42 am
If an idiot like me can figure out PPFStudio, I'm sure Phil can. =P
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 06, 2010, 03:38:00 pm
Quote from: "Eternal248"If an idiot like me can figure out PPFStudio, I'm sure Phil can. =P

You totally "figured it out", bro.  



Philsov, do you know how hard it is to implement the "Chocobo Knights" thing that Zodiac did a while back?  It seems like it would be really cool to implement in ASM'd for some enemies, especially in Chapter 3/4 and especially if you do that switch to make more monsters mountable.  There are a lot of times where you (or at least I) would EXPECT the enemy to be riding in by mount but they just kinda... walk in.

This also gives the people who don't generally do many random battles more of a taste of how powerful monsters can be while being a cool move in its own right.  Sure, Sweegy Woods / Araguay Woods / Zigolis Swap introduce you to some combination of Goblins / Bombs / Skeletons / Ghosts / Malboros, but after that I can't think of any other battles involving many monsters at all besides Finath River or some sidequest stuff.   Begin fight mounts also give you more ways of making enemies mobile besides jamming Move +2, high base move (if a Special class), or Move + gear on them and adds a layer of depth to fights.  From what I read of the topic on it, Zodiac made it sound like it was simple enough, but that was a while back.

It was just a thought I had that could be really cool to implement since it flows perfectly with other implemented or suggested changes.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Eternal on April 06, 2010, 03:48:58 pm
I swear, Raven, one patch goes wrong. ONE PATCH. And you jump on me about it. =P
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 06, 2010, 04:51:11 pm
Quote from: "philsov"
Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( :mrgreen: )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

Hey, philsov, I was wondering. With regards to Camouflage, is the computer not using it because you're not including the ASM that allows the AI to see Transparent units? And do you want it that way?

(Just asking because 100% Transparent without any catches or the computer being able to see Transparent people just seems kind of...questionable.)

Oh, and thanks for the skill set clarification.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 06, 2010, 06:45:03 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"That, and when he learns to use PPFStudio or whatever it is.  Heh.

Pretty much.  Can't ever seem to get it right.  Once I'm ready for ppf expect me to bump my old topic in Help with a new list of grievances against that monster.

QuotePhilsov, do you know how hard it is to implement the "Chocobo Knights" thing that Zodiac did a while back?

Um... link to Zodiac's stuff?  It's not a matter of easy entd input, I know that much.  But I might be able to piggyback.  

Regarding monsters in general fights, I am upping the monster ratio some.  I know I'm planning on flotiballs for the lionel ambush, for example :).

Quoteis the computer not using it because you're not including the ASM that allows the AI to see Transparent units? And do you want it that way?

The computer isn't using it because its freaking dumb, and considers transparent as a positive status.  Hence, there are times when an enemy transparent unit would rather do nothing than attack, just to keep up the veil.  As for its ASM, that's another I left off the front page or deleted by accident.  That WILL be implemented, because transblocking is completely lame and cheesy.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 06, 2010, 07:02:57 pm
Quote from: "philsov"Um... link to Zodiac's stuff?  It's not a matter of easy entd input, I know that much.  But I might be able to piggyback.  

Regarding monsters in general fights, I am upping the monster ratio some.  I know I'm planning on flotiballs for the lionel ambush, for example :D
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 08, 2010, 02:58:07 am
It seems fairly simple.  All it is a special set for ENTDs so it doesn't get mixed up for other units + units walking onto the chocobo's square via event script.  The only problem is that this will occur only in one battle or one map unless you specify that every map that uses chocobo riders has them at location X,Y (which is silly, I'd think).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 08, 2010, 01:13:48 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"It seems fairly simple.  All it is a special set for ENTDs so it doesn't get mixed up for other units + units walking onto the chocobo's square via event script.  The only problem is that this will occur only in one battle or one map unless you specify that every map that uses chocobo riders has them at location X,Y (which is silly, I'd think).

Considering part of his note was "make sure you use different unit IDs for every random chocobo knights battle you create", I would imagine there's a feasible way to make it work on multiple maps.  While I don't event edit, I used to be a code junky for other things, and from what I gather here you implement every Chocobo Rider WalkTo event under that same offset, and give each one a unique Unit ID starting at x90, so that only units with the unique "Chocobo Knight" IDs appearing in that battle will execute the WalkTo and mount their ride, with all the others being skipped since their IDs aren't present in the battle.

That's what I'm getting from his post and what bits and pieces of FFT event editing I know, at least.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 08, 2010, 01:33:18 pm
I don't want to distract from the current discussion, but I did forget to ask something I had been meaning to about the Archer skill set because I am a scatterbrain.

The thing was I wondering, which anyone can answer, is about the SP * WP and PA * WP formulas. Are these exempt from that 999 weapon damage exploit with Guns/weapons that use the WP*WP formula?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 08, 2010, 01:54:25 pm
Those avoid it because they reference two different stats: SP and WP.  The whole reason why the Zodiac glitch even works is probably because the formula was probably updating WP in both instances of existence, scaling weapon damage quadratically.

Raven, point taken, though if you have a chocobo rider on every battlefield, you could quickly run out of unit IDs.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Xifanie on April 08, 2010, 02:58:47 pm
Ideally you don't touch 00-7F
and 80-8F are normally used for enemies
that leaves 90-FF; or 112 mounted chawcawbaws.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 08, 2010, 04:17:17 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Raven, point taken, though if you have a chocobo rider on every battlefield, you could quickly run out of unit IDs.

There's no reason to have them on every battlefield, though, that'd ruin the point of the monster rider being an epic enemy.

It means they can be used in more than one instance easily though, since there's so much empty... everything in FFT.

Quote from: "Zodiac"Ideally you don't touch 00-7F
and 80-8F are normally used for enemies
that leaves 90-FF; or 112 mounted chawcawbaws.

More than enough.

Plus, if Philsov did what we were talking about a few pages back about switching around some monsters and using an ASM to make them mountable, they won't just be mounted chawcawbaws...  :twisted:
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Dokurider on April 09, 2010, 01:40:44 pm
Could we program Draw out to just inflict statuses? Like Break Item? Or would it be forced to be 100% and thus broken?

Also, would it be alright for the archer skillset to have the ability to cancel positive statuses? That would make Archers invaluable vs M-Barrier spam (see that one NOGIAS).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: Timbo on April 09, 2010, 03:55:33 pm
Maybe its me but it seems like that with enough CT and MP cost almost nothing is broken.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 09, 2010, 03:58:26 pm
Draw Out can't take MP. (Neither can Geomancy.)

Also, people don't use Dispel as it is, Dokurider. Giving people even less reason to do so is...well, I shouldn't have to say.

Also there's not really anything that says philsov won't change up Deep Dungeon, especially since this isn't as based off of 1.3 as Easytype is.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 09, 2010, 04:38:40 pm
Some thoughts I've been mulling over lately:  

First, Move-Find Item.

I don't know what you've done with it, but...

It needs to be 100%, especially without Fury implemented.  Even if you get a 40 Br dedicated MFI user, that's still resetting half the time if you walk onto a rare drop like a Vanish Mantle or Blood Sword and get the shit item instead.  I think we discussed that bit a long time ago, though.

Time to expand it, however.

The only "Item" command stuff that's MFIable, IMO, should be Elixirs, and ULTRA POTION / Hi-Ethers / other stuff earlier on when its still unbuyable, maybe Phoenix Downs really early on if you do what Eternal did and crank them to cost like 2000 gil.  In general, though, once it's in shops, it's not worth the MFI.  Equipment should likely be one or two tiers ahead of what's in shops when it's MFI'd for the same reason.  Rare, unpoachable MFIs like Blood Swords, etc. should only be on maps that can be accessed for random battles, because this both gives more incentive to explore the various random battles in the game and stop people from getting pissed about missing some random equipment because they were too busy trying to merely win a hard story fight and can't really go back once they've done it without resetting, since trying to MFI is like having a character with no Movement bonus.

I'd take maps like Doldobar Swamp and Bervenia Volcano (aka, the ones the player NEVER needs to visit) and make all four MFIs high-end poachables or better, since they're already likely going to be the locations of some of the most interesting and difficult random battles in the game.  This also rewards people for being creative, since if Geomancer gets its innate Movement abilities carried over from 1.3 you can (IIRC) nab the MFI in the lava panel on Bervenia Volcano now.  Speaking of that place, I'd remove the Materia Blade from there and make it come force-equipped on Cloud, because honestly I don't see how him NOT COMING WITH HIS DAMN SWORD makes any sense.

It'd be tedious to do this kind of thing, I know, but it'd be nice to at least make MFI'ing more relevant to the overall game and not just Deep Dungeon and a couple obscure grabs.  It'd in an odd way also help cure the problem of too few viable Movement skills, since bringing at least one unit to play treasure hunter would actually be worthwhile on many maps.  

Speaking of Deep Dungeon, though, I've some thoughts there as well.

1.  Make the levels scale, seriously.  I know 1.3 wants the place to be uber, but having to grind about 50 Levels for that place then likely be unable to beat the game unless you're ridiculous at it is stupid.  Removing easy AI cheeses and stuff should make the place a lot harder to begin with anyway, if you keep with the 1.3 tradition of loading the place with special classes and such.

2.  Could there be a few "stealing" fights?  Aka, fights against stuff like Ark Knights, Divine Knights, Holy Knights, Sorcerers, etc etc where they sport gear that can otherwise only be obtained via MFI in Deep Dungeon itself like Chaos Blade, etc and can be stolen from?  Obviously the difficulty on those fights would be cranked, both due to the gear being present and to make it harder to grab (maybe make it near-1.3 level hard?), but with one of the best rewards you can give someone if they can actually survive with both less/no AI cheeses, no Hamedo/Abandon/Teleport/etc (with them possibly having those skills), and with a Thief / means of going kleptomania on those enemies.  It could lead to some really difficult fights but with some nice rewards for people liked me who are bugged by having to always shuffle around their one Chaos Blade or Robe of Lords between fights, but would obviously not be necessary to beat the game.   Plus, if you have Divine Knights or Holy Swordsmen mixed in, you're making players risk their gear to earn more on top of all the other hellish stuff, keh.

3.  Can the stupid "find the panel to escape" thing be removed?  It was unnecessary, tedious, and with ASM'd's changes doing it could end up horrific even on some of the "easier" Deep Dungeon fights (as it'd take turns longer to reach and check each panel).  If there's a way to remove it, please do.  Or at least move them really close to the player or something if you can't.

4.  Byblos.  I don't know what we should do with him skillset-wise (I've never really used him), but IIRC his Br/Fa is random... please make it not-random and a set of scores that doesn't suck.  I think Worker 8 is preset, but if not do the same.  

I think that covers it for Deep Dungeon.



Also, did you ever find any info on making those four guest slots usable for party members?  I've looked around and I can't find ANY topics on it for some reason so far, which is really fucking odd.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 09, 2010, 05:06:48 pm
Haha, I was just mulling over Move-Find Item in my own patch. I agree with everything you've said, especially Deep Dungeon-wise (but then again Deep Dungeon is getting WAY remodeled in my patch, even though it's last priority). I only thing I'm not sure I agree with is the panel exit in Deep Dungeon because I think there's some trick to it on explained on GameFAQs or something.

(That and maybe the "stealing fights" considering what may happen with the items.)

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"Some thoughts I've been mulling over lately:  

First, Move-Find Item.

I don't know what you've done with it, but...

It needs to be 100%, especially without Fury implemented.  Even if you get a 40 Br dedicated MFI user, that's still resetting half the time if you walk onto a rare drop like a Vanish Mantle or Blood Sword and get the shit item instead.  I think we discussed that bit a long time ago, though.

I've been thinking about this in general and you could probably get away with making it so that, like with Javelin II and Escutcheon II, the item takes up both instances, making all item instances 100%. I don't see how doing that would cause any additional problems.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 09, 2010, 05:26:36 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Haha, I was just mulling over Move-Find Item in my own patch. I agree with everything you've said, especially Deep Dungeon-wise (but then again Deep Dungeon is getting WAY remodeled in my patch, even though it's last priority). I only thing I'm not sure I agree with is the panel exit in Deep Dungeon because I think there's some trick to it on explained on GameFAQs or something.

(That and maybe the "stealing fights" considering what may happen with the items.)

It's not that there's no trick to it.  It's that some of the panels start on the other side of the map.  ASM'd heavily reduces movement range and likely will be making Deep Dungeon a lot harder than Vanilla in the way most patches do, so the panel exits are arbitrary difficulty.  They're in 1.3 and 1.3 Deep Dungeon has some ridiculous shit in it, sure, but 1.3 also has Teleport and the ability to easily stack 7-8 Move on things to make getting to them easier.  Without Teleport and your *max* move being roughly 5 or so (assuming high Move job and Move +2), it seems like the panel exits would just make things harder than they need to be since you'd need to keep that last (likely far more dangerous) enemy alive longer to get to each of the potential panel exists.

Quote from: "The Damned"I've been thinking about this in general and you could probably get away with making it so that, like with Javelin II and Escutcheon II, the item takes up both instances, making all item instances 100%. I don't see how doing that would cause any additional problems.

That's what I was suggesting he do, really.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 09, 2010, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"As for his stuff, let me see what I can find...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2128 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2128)

^^
You need to quote his post to view the spoiler, since I'm guessing it got broken in the transfer all those months ago.

I think the best part is all breeds of monster only take 1 sprite in terms of the battle, so you can mount units on different breeds of the same monster for even more complex setups.  :D

....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

Looks like fun.  I'll need to read into it a little deeper to understand where all those references go so I can set everything up, but it sounds like fun to do for a fight or two.  But is a bit too complex to setup for a series of fights, maybe, we'll see how I feel after putting together a few with this trick.

QuoteAlso, would it be alright for the archer skillset to have the ability to cancel positive statuses? That would make Archers invaluable vs M-Barrier spam (see that one NOGIAS).

Eh, between Yin-Yang and Talk Skill I think we're pretty good on that front, and Archers already have a status cleansing ability. Plus since Archers are effectively getting Poison, Wizards are gaining a cool little Shatter ability which cancels protect, shell, or regen and then deals a % amount of damage (30%-ish) to the target.

QuoteCould we program Draw out to just inflict statuses?

Certainly.  Kiyomori agrees with you.  If you mean at a less than 100% rate and more like a 25% rate, I think so through the use of the Seperate flag.  But having it do stuff like break weapons is beyond the formula limitations.

 
QuoteRare, unpoachable MFIs like Blood Swords, etc. should only be on maps that can be accessed for random battles, because this both gives more incentive to explore the various random battles in the game and stop people from getting pissed about missing some random equipment because they were too busy trying to merely win a hard story fight and can't really go back once they've done it without resetting, since trying to MFI is like having a character with no Movement bonus.

I'd take maps like Doldobar Swamp and Bervenia Volcano (aka, the ones the player NEVER needs to visit) and make all four MFIs high-end poachables or better, since they're already likely going to be the locations of some of the most interesting and difficult random battles in the game. This also rewards people for being creative, since if Geomancer gets its innate Movement abilities carried over from 1.3 you can (IIRC) nab the MFI in the lava panel on Bervenia Volcano now. Speaking of that place, I'd remove the Materia Blade from there and make it come force-equipped on Cloud, because honestly I don't see how him NOT COMING WITH HIS DAMN SWORD makes any sense.

It'd be tedious to do this kind of thing, I know, but it'd be nice to at least make MFI'ing more relevant to the overall game and not just Deep Dungeon and a couple obscure grabs. It'd in an odd way also help cure the problem of too few viable Movement skills, since bringing at least one unit to play treasure hunter would actually be worthwhile on many maps.

1) I agree, MFI's should be more worthwhile in general with equipment a tier or two ahead of the shop curve or for expensive/rare/presently unbuyable Items.  The super-awesome pickups in the DD and nelveska will be 100%.

2) Rare MFI's are just that.  There's no way to limit the quantity on an item and make it accessible in a random at the same time.  Some items are going to be kept as rare and rare only.

3) Materia Blade on Cloud sounds good.  Always seemed random to go to the volcano anyways.

4) Dolbador and Bervania are already going to be a leet random battle locations because poaching is getting nerfed to the ground, and this is where most of the poaching goodies that are better than store-bought equipment can be found... through either battle trophies, MFIs, or stealables.  Or all 3 for that matter.  

Quote1. Make the DD levels scale, seriously. I know 1.3 wants the place to be uber, but having to grind about 50 Levels for that place then likely be unable to beat the game unless you're ridiculous at it is stupid. Removing easy AI cheeses and stuff should make the place a lot harder to begin with anyway, if you keep with the 1.3 tradition of loading the place with special classes and such.

Sure.  That's how the old DD scheme was, anyways -- everything was partly level +20 or something.  Things were still easier at 99 but the gap wasn't nearly as horrible as it is now.
Quote2. Could there be a few "stealing" fights?

Nope!  Rare is rare.  The DD fights will be purely for the sake of completing them.  

Quote3. Can the stupid "find the panel to escape" thing be removed?

Possibly, but I don't know how at this time.  Offhand I'd guess it'd be a matter of tweaking commands in Attack.out and worldsomething, but removing that feature AND making it so the next map unlocks at the defeat of the previous one might be tricky.  It'd be easier (but still balls hard, for me) to unlock all the maps, but I like the whole progression thing.  But I can tune the "easy" fights around having to fine comb the damned place.  Nor are their locations easily editable.

Quote4. Byblos.

Will be getting fixed Br/Fa.  His skillset is pretty good, I think.  (1.3) Difference is siiiiiiiiiick.  But I might expand him into some abilities from, like, Archaic Demons and Apandas.

Anyways, DD will be introduced in a follow-up patch after the first official release of this patch.  I want to get a wider pool of feedback and concrete the mechanics before designing the DD fights.  But suffice to say they will be similar to 1.3's in nature (13023 DD, not 13030) but not in the fights themselves.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 09, 2010, 08:16:14 pm
Excuse my ignorance, but was the difference between 13023 and 13030 DD?

Not every fight was against some type of uber NPC-class group of units? I vaguely remember liking that "Earth Wall" team, but that's only one I remember.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 09, 2010, 08:26:00 pm
Quote from: "philsov"....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

From what I gather, you spawn the Chocobos, then give each rider a custom unit ID and walk them over.  I don't see how that creates a 22 unit fight, unless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

Quote from: "philsov"Looks like fun.  I'll need to read into it a little deeper to understand where all those references go so I can set everything up, but it sounds like fun to do for a fight or two.  But is a bit too complex to setup for a series of fights, maybe, we'll see how I feel after putting together a few with this trick.

I wasn't thinking for a ton of fights, just a few each Chapter tops starting with Chapter 2, and some randoms maybe.

It was just something I remembered and realized ASM'd could make great use of so I figured I'd mention it.
Quote from: "philsov"2) Rare MFI's are just that.  There's no way to limit the quantity on an item and make it accessible in a random at the same time.  Some items are going to be kept as rare and rare only.

Bro, it's an MFI.  You can only get an MFI once per map, unless my memory is heavily being raped by something.  I meant that if you have a "rare" MFI like Blood Sword, it just shouldn't be during a story battle.  The player can only get it once either way.

Quote from: "philsov"4) Dolbador and Bervania are already going to be a leet random battle locations because poaching is getting nerfed to the ground, and this is where most of the poaching goodies that are better than store-bought equipment can be found... through either battle trophies, MFIs, or stealables.  Or all 3 for that matter.

Sounds good.

Quote from: "philsov"Sure.  That's how the old DD scheme was, anyways -- everything was partly level +20 or something.  Things were still easier at 99 but the gap wasn't nearly as horrible as it is now.

Quote from: "philsov"Nope!  Rare is rare.  The DD fights will be purely for the sake of completing them.

You wound me, good sir.  I was looking forward to try stealing from 12 Orlandus sporting Abandon, Chaos Blades, Grand Helmets, Maximillians, and Setiemsons.

Quote from: "philsov"Possibly, but I don't know how at this time.  Offhand I'd guess it'd be a matter of tweaking commands in Attack.out and worldsomething, but removing that feature AND making it so the next map unlocks at the defeat of the previous one might be tricky.  It'd be easier (but still balls hard, for me) to unlock all the maps, but I like the whole progression thing.  But I can tune the "easy" fights around having to fine comb the damned place.  Nor are their locations easily editable.

I would imagine it'd just be as simple as changing whatever trigger is set off when you touch the panel to trigger at the end of the fight instead, but I don't edit.  If it's too much trouble, don't worry about it, but doing away with it would stop from needing to have one fight being "easy" enough to get the MFIs and panel exists.

Quote from: "philsov"Will be getting fixed Br/Fa.  His skillset is pretty good, I think.  (1.3) Difference is siiiiiiiiiick.  But I might expand him into some abilities from, like, Archaic Demons and Apandas.

More than good enough for me.  Him getting some of the otherwise unobtainable abilities from Demons and Apandas would be cool if only for the sake of being able to use them as a player.

Quote from: "philsov"Anyways, DD will be introduced in a follow-up patch after the first official release of this patch.  I want to get a wider pool of feedback and concrete the mechanics before designing the DD fights.  But suffice to say they will be similar to 1.3's in nature (13023 DD, not 13030) but not in the fights themselves.

Ah.  Sounds good, though I've never played 1.3023.  I'm such a scrub.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 09, 2010, 09:06:10 pm
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
Quote from: "philsov"....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

From what I gather, you spawn the Chocobos, then give each rider a custom unit ID and walk them over.  I don't see how that creates a 22 unit fight, unless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

He probably meant that because the Chocobos themselves will count as units once the rider dies.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2010, 01:46:25 am
You still have to observe the 11 enemy max limit because to mount a chocobo, that chocobo and the mounted knight have to both be referenced in the ENTD (which won't load if you exceed limits).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 10, 2010, 01:49:27 am
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You still have to observe the 11 enemy max limit because to mount a chocobo, that chocobo and the mounted knight have to both be referenced in the ENTD (which won't load if you exceed limits).

Except that no one ever suggested he have more than 5 mounted enemies per fight (or even that all enemies be mounted), hence why I've no idea where his number even comes from.

Even the demonstration video Zodiac uses has only 5 Chocobo Knights in it against Ramza + 4 party members.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 10, 2010, 03:58:48 am
Posting again for two reasons.

First, this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923)

Second, Comet is instantcast magic using Choco Meteor's graphic.  Choco Meteor is instantcast magic.  Can't we combine them and get ANOTHER ability slot to toy with?  Also, can't we combine Esuna and Choco Esuna just as easily?  Hell, I'm tempted to suggest making Esuna instantcast and/or upping the amount of statuses it remedies because I'm pretty sure it's mostly underpowered and outclassed by equivalent skills such as Remedy and Stigma Magic.  Heh, I've just realized all the Chocobo skills can be combined with either existing magic or something you've created.  If you hadn't made Choco Cure a Blue Magic I'd ask if you'd want to combine with with a Cure Spell, heh.

Quick thoughts, but they seem sensible enough and would allow you two more ability slots to toy with.  Also, vanilla Cheer Up in retrospect, is it worth taking up the ability slot to give it to Ramza since it's nothing more than a more-accurate version of the Mediator skill?  I'm asking because it may be worth dedicating the ability slot to something else.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 10, 2010, 11:33:49 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Excuse my ignorance, but was the difference between 13023 and 13030 DD?

Not every fight was against some type of uber NPC-class group of units? I vaguely remember liking that "Earth Wall" team, but that's only one I remember.

Pretty much.  A lot less ???'s floating around, a lot of other concept-ish fights that were difficult that got removed for something even harder.  My complaint with the 13030 deep dungeon is that theres so much ??? and status immunity floating that the number of viable setups is greatly diminished.

Quoteunless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

That was the plan but apparently I misread the information, if its all within a single ENTD.

QuoteYou can only get an MFI once per map,

shows how often I use MFI, lol.
QuoteFirst, this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923

Second, Comet is instantcast magic using Choco Meteor's graphic. Choco Meteor is instantcast magic. Can't we combine them and get ANOTHER ability slot to toy with? Also, can't we combine Esuna and Choco Esuna just as easily? Hell, I'm tempted to suggest making Esuna instantcast and/or upping the amount of statuses it remedies because I'm pretty sure it's mostly underpowered and outclassed by equivalent skills such as Remedy and Stigma Magic. Heh, I've just realized all the Chocobo skills can be combined with either existing magic or something you've created. If you hadn't made Choco Cure a Blue Magic I'd ask if you'd want to combine with with a Cure Spell, heh.

Quick thoughts, but they seem sensible enough and would allow you two more ability slots to toy with. Also, vanilla Cheer Up in retrospect, is it worth taking up the ability slot to give it to Ramza since it's nothing more than a more-accurate version of the Mediator skill? I'm asking because it may be worth dedicating the ability slot to something else.

1) Great discovery!  Though I don't foresee needing much else out of it.  I like the AI ignoring all the other effects.

2) No, as the magical versions are faith based while choco is pure MA in both cases -- and real esuna has a CTR.

QT - Possibly.  But currently there's -still- blank ability slots so I see no reason why mess with it until I actually reach the time.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 10, 2010, 02:31:28 pm
Quote from: "philsov"That was the plan but apparently I misread the information, if its all within a single ENTD.

Well, the good news is the Chocobos still kill shit when the riders die! :D

Quote from: "philsov"QT - Possibly.  But currently there's -still- blank ability slots so I see no reason why mess with it until I actually reach the time.

I'm mostly just trying to think of every possible thing that can be combined for when that time comes.  May as well get it done now so there's a quick and easy place to find the info if/when you need it.  :p
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2010, 09:57:43 pm
I'd make it so the AI targets DS and Confused units if in range.  Both lead to some rather infamous exploits.

I don't know how far you all want to go, but unless you want each Lucavi/boss to have 4+ distinct spells, you should be fine.  I'm currently having 1 excess spell on my patch and I made close to 35 new spells and I didn't need to do what Raven suggested.

Auto-Esuna is a little much though.  When was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 10, 2010, 10:02:28 pm
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Auto-Esuna is a little much though.  When was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?

I can't remember the last time I even casted Esuna to heal anything besides Petrify outside of Chapter 1.  It's always more efficient to just have Item/Remedy most of the time.

Which is why I think it should be instant and/or should heal a wider range of statuses in order to make it worth the MP (and time if it keeps CT) to cast.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2010, 10:05:44 pm
Then the obvious problem is remedy being too cheap.  Esuna is a fairly balanced spell as is, though you could expand the AoE to create a mass Esuna 2 spell to counter grand cross/bad breath (as I did in mine).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 10, 2010, 10:20:00 pm
QuoteWhen was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?

Nev...er?  It's called looking at the AT list.  Esuna is multi-target, and useful over remedy on curing multi-target status effects like Blind, Paralyze, Mimic Daravon, etc.  Both it and remedy do their job pretty well, and then there's always stigma magic / refute / heal / salve / Lick to round things off.  

As for "wider range of status", what more do you want it to do?  Cure chicken?  (Truthfully I'll probably expand it to cure Oil and Stop, but that's aside from the point).

Nor does remedy cure either don't move or don't act.

Esuna's fine.  Really.

~

But!  Onto more awesome things.  Been dicking around with Zodiac's two attack.out editors.

The first lets me toggle battle conditions -- specifically I'm interested in making a majority of the assassination fights "defeat all enemies".  I could do a LOT more with this (race Ramza to X while a horde of well-placed and deadly foes nip at his heels, for example), but I'm content with just going from "ice this dude" to "ice ALL dudes".

The second, which I find more personally interesting, lets me (for all storyline and DD battles, dunno about randoms yet)

- limit the number of people in my squad (anywhere from 1 to 5)
- alter my starting positions
- establish 2-squad setups if I so choose (think Beltha Sluice or Golgarond).  

Which all sounds like fun little twists to throw into the mix.  Anyone have a battle that immediately comes to mind that'd be better off with a split, moved, and/or reduced party?  So far the only thing I've come up with is loading up Delita's side at Sand Rat Cellar, if for nothing else but to leave Algus all alone as the battle starts.

edit:  dammit fcd you ninjaed the 666 post -_-
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 10, 2010, 11:06:45 pm
Quote from: "philsov"The second, which I find more personally interesting, lets me (for all storyline and DD battles, dunno about randoms yet)

- limit the number of people in my squad (anywhere from 1 to 5)
- alter my starting positions
- establish 2-squad setups if I so choose (think Beltha Sluice or Golgarond).  

Which all sounds like fun little twists to throw into the mix.  Anyone have a battle that immediately comes to mind that'd be better off with a split, moved, and/or reduced party?  So far the only thing I've come up with is loading up Delita's side at Sand Rat Cellar, if for nothing else but to leave Algus all alone as the battle starts.

...A part of me thinks you're enjoying this a bit too much.  :p

Lol @ Algus thing.  You should do that for the humor aspect of it, but I think that'd actually make the fight easier if the whole team starts on one side.  Then again, you can also alter the amount/placement of enemies to compensate, so all seems like it could be balanced out.

Other fights that could use having the amount of people in-squad be split up / changed...

Goug Machine City, you could have the player's units be in two squads that each spawn in one of the map's corners behind Ramza instead of directly behind him.  Eh.

Yardow Fort City could have two parties coming in instead of one since outside the gate is one big plain area, but again kinda eh.  Yuguo Woods as well.

Poeskas Lake could be messed with.  You could also do some ridiculous shit like add ghosts of already defeated bosses like Miluda/Wiegraf/Gafgarion/Izlude/Algus/etc in them.  3 way battle between Ramza's team, ??? undead Miluda and Golgaros, and ??? Undead Algus would be an EPIC Yuguo Woods.  Or possibly minus the ??? and plus more relevant units.  Definitely plenty of material for Poeskas Lake as well.

For Inside Limberry Castle... hmmm... well, nothing position-wise, but the Assassins... hmm... maybe make them turn into something else besides Ultima Demons if killed?  Get a recolored set of Assassin sprites and make them turn into undead Assassins or some ridiculous shit?

The second Colliery battle could see split teams coming in more towards the corners, maybe?  Eh.

Eh, there's not that much I can think of where the two-party thing can be sensibly applied but isn't already.  Except the Deep Dungeon.  Have a fucking ball in there, bro.



EDIT:  How much can we mess with sprites?  1.3 added Kanbabrif's full sprite and whatnot, so there has to be SOME room there.  Some things like using the alternate Agrias sprite, the Advent Children Cloud sprite, maybe giving Miluda her own sprite (I think there's one of her lying around somewhere?), etc. could make nice flavor touches.  It'd also give you more material for the spoof script as far as Agrias and Cloud go.

If we could find a way to make use of those Guest Character slots, I'd suggest maybe making a mildly cliche move and making Alicia/Lavian/Rad/Boco into pseudo-Specials and doing it with enough class to make it epic since we've already fucked/are fucking many other aspects of the game, but I don't think we should have more Specials than available party slots after Ramza + 4 Generics has been considered.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 10, 2010, 11:52:47 pm
Alicia, Lavian, Rad & Boco already ARE pseudo-Specials, unless you mean actually giving them some non-generic abilities since the only things that differentiates them from other generics are set stats and birthdates/Zodiac signs. That doesn't seem to be what you're saying, though. (Then again, I might be incorrect since I'm perhaps considering what I'm doing with those characters, well Rad at least.)

Speaking of (doomed) special characters, having just finished my prototype of the new Lancer (which still needs testing), I was wonder if you were considering doing anything with Lancers and/or Izlude (poor, poor Izlude, bastard to fight that he is), philsov?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 11, 2010, 12:13:59 am
Quote from: "The Damned"Alicia, Lavian, Rad & Boco already ARE pseudo-Specials, unless you mean actually giving them some non-generic abilities since the only things that differentiates them from other generics are set stats and birthdates/Zodiac signs. That doesn't seem to be what you're saying, though. (Then again, I might be incorrect since I'm perhaps considering what I'm doing with those characters, well Rad at least.)

I meant their own Mustadio-like skillsets, with skills and growths that are unique but nothing to really write home about compared to the rest of the game.

It'd be a nice little touch if nothing else, assuming those slots could be made available.  If not, oh well.

Quote from: "The Damned"Speaking of (doomed) special characters, having just finished my prototype of the new Lancer (which still needs testing), I was wonder if you were considering doing anything with Lancers and/or Izlude (poor, poor Izlude, bastard to fight that he is), philsov?

Watching people try to fight 1.3 Izlude at level 40-50 on a live stream is the most amusing thing ever, honestly.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 11, 2010, 12:33:22 am
*had to do that last time and will probably have to do that this time too*

Please don't remind me.

Anyway, it's odd. I've been messing with the ENTD lately, and I've noticed that Rad, Lavian, Alicia AND Boco seem to have sprite sheet settings in the list. However, those sprite sheets aren't used, just the generic forms. Are these sprite sheets flawed?

Similarly, I was surprised to find out that Aeris's sprite supposedly corresponds to a generic female Chemist. I guess I can see the similarities thinking on it, but...yeah.

Don't mind me....
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 11, 2010, 12:49:51 am
Quote from: "The Damned"*had to do that last time and will probably have to do that this time too*

Please don't remind me.

Too late.

Random thoughts:

I've been trying to think of good was to get rid of Initial: Haste off Excalibur and Setiemson, but still have nothing,  Part of me is thinking that making Excalibur Holy Elemental could be cool so it boosts itself but that seems meh.  Also, I remembered one of the bags (H Bag, I believe) gives Speed +1 in 1.3.  I'm thinking this is something that should be changed, but I've no idea how.   As far as other Perfumes go, I'm thinking Salty Rage could be Always: Protect/Shell like it currently is, but given the debuff of Weak: All Elements or something so that Elemental strikes still do roughly even damage unless the user compensates for them.

Mostly random thoughts in terms of equipment that I'm not sure if/how I'm going to finally incorporate into that giant notepad log, but I felt posting them could be useful in case someone gets an idea for them.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 11, 2010, 01:38:10 am
Hmmm...I can't think of anything that would mesh with what philsov's doing considering he doesn't seem to be changing that many elemental abilities, but you did just give me an idea about Excalibur (that's completely unrelated to your proposoal).

Still can't help with Perfumes since mine are totally different. Still sorry.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 11, 2010, 10:12:55 am
QuoteEDIT: How much can we mess with sprites? 1.3 added Kanbabrif's full sprite and whatnot, so there has to be SOME room there.

Afaik... 1, found in Celia's (or Ledes?) sprite, since both assassins only use 1 sprite sheet.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 11, 2010, 01:23:25 pm
To clarify, then after that 1 redundancy, then everything we replace has a 1-to-1 effect on the game I'm guessing?

(Wait, don't Celia and Lede use Dancer's sprite sheet anyway? Are they separate from that? I'm asking partially because I noticed the redundancy, but also because I'm replacing Dancer, so....)

@RavenofRazgriz: I've been thinking about it since I started redoing Longbows and Crossbows yesterday: Doesn't Salem Bow seem a tad too anti-magic? I'm sure magic is a significantly more powerful due to the speed reduction and the range reduction, but it's just seems to still feel unsure to me to have a status effect that's specifically useful against one class and then completely useless against another.

(Not that you can ultimately do anything against what philsov decides to actually do; neither can I. I will also admit that this is colored by the fact that I've changed Silence to Addle as LD and FDC also have.)

I can't really think of a replacement, which is an additional problem with suggesting something's "wrong".
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 11, 2010, 02:12:36 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"To clarify, then after that 1 redundancy, then everything we replace has a 1-to-1 effect on the game I'm guessing?

(Wait, don't Celia and Lede use Dancer's sprite sheet anyway? Are they separate from that? I'm asking partially because I noticed the redundancy, but also because I'm replacing Dancer, so....)

Aren't there also multiple instances of Gafgarion, Agrias, etc. that can easily be overwritten and just have some numbers switched around to have all of them reference the one remaining instance of each character?

Or did 1.3 already do all that kind of stuff and eat up most of the resulting space, philsov, since I know you're using Easytype base?

Quote from: "The Damned"@RavenofRazgriz: I've been thinking about it since I started redoing Longbows and Crossbows yesterday: Doesn't Salem Bow seem a tad too anti-magic? I'm sure magic is a significantly more powerful due to the speed reduction and the range reduction, but it's just seems to still feel unsure to me to have a status effect that's specifically useful against one class and then completely useless against another.

(Not that you can ultimately do anything against what philsov decides to actually do; neither can I. I will also admit that this is colored by the fact that I've changed Silence to Addle as LD and FDC also have.)

At 25% status and evadable, I don't see it much more harmful than Silence spells, etc., but I suppose it could be.

The only other idea I had was a Crossbow that inficted Zombie but I don't think that can be justified on non-legendary gear.  If Archer gets a Hunter-like skillset, I imagine most of the other statuses will be covered in there, so... eh.  Bows are bows, guns are guns, Longbows covered Elementals and Gastrifitis doubleshots so I don't have too many ideas for an alternative to Salem Bow right now.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: The Damned on April 11, 2010, 02:58:28 pm
Speaking of that Gastrifitis, I found it rather odd that the strongest Crossbow is the (only) one that can double shot.

However, that might just be me.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: philsov on April 11, 2010, 03:23:00 pm
Actually after poking around in shishi there should be at least a handful of available sprite slots (~9).  However, there's a string of random male squires and the assassins (apparently both are unused?) to toy with, so I can input cameos of sprites for a few random battles or something.  However, odds are that these will be battle and enemy-only, if for nothing else that loading these sprite pre-battle might look like crap.   I really don't want to introduce or take in completely new characters, anyways.  

QuoteAren't there also multiple instances of Gafgarion, Agrias, etc. that can easily be overwritten and just have some numbers switched around to have all of them reference the one remaining instance of each character?

Well... yes and no.  In-battle sprites I can alter in the ENTD, but in the formation I'm pretty sure it doesn't carry through.  

But on the plus side Miluda's new sprite works well ingame, and I can import Agrias' sprite as well if for nothing other than a change.  

Also because I thought I answered this before:  I have no plans for changing jump.  While there is ample ability space for introducing a new Lancer skillset, I actually think the job command is worth keeping around (unlike Charge).
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D!
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 11, 2010, 04:03:53 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Speaking of that Gastrifitis, I found it rather odd that the strongest Crossbow is the (only) one that can double shot.

However, that might just be me.

The idea was that everything other Crossbow had some kind of defensive property to it (either higher W-Ev or a disabling status), so Gastrifitis was the balls-to-the-wall heavy aggro Crossbow.  It might be able to do with a W-Ev drop, though.  Like I noted on the fire, Bows / Crossbows / Guns / couple other areas were all places that didn't satisfy me that much.

Quote from: "philsov"Actually after poking around in shishi there should be at least a handful of available sprite slots (~9).  However, there's a string of random male squires and the assassins (apparently both are unused?) to toy with, so I can input cameos of sprites for a few random battles or something.  However, odds are that these will be battle and enemy-only, if for nothing else that loading these sprite pre-battle might look like crap.   I really don't want to introduce or take in completely new characters, anyways.

That's mostly the kind of thing I was thinking of, sprite and palette swaps where it's possible and at least somewhat tasteful to give the game its own "feel", not a lot of unique specials.  Like I said, the only "new" specials I could even see are Alicia/Lavian/Rad/Boco, and only if those four slots can be freed up.  Otherwise, just sprite and palette dickery to make ASM'd look unique without messing anything up too badly.

Quote from: "philsov"Well... yes and no.  In-battle sprites I can alter in the ENTD, but in the formation I'm pretty sure it doesn't carry through.  

But on the plus side Miluda's new sprite works well ingame, and I can import Agrias' sprite as well if for nothing other than a change.

If I remember correctly, replacing enemy Gafgarion is standard procedure because it's one of the sprites that carry over for that kind of thing.

Either way, that's again not really what I was talking about outside of straight sprite swaps on Specials when possible/appropriate.  Miluda's sprite working in-game is quite win, now epicsauce can be done with her and it won't look out of place!

Quote from: "philsov"Also because I thought I answered this before:  I have no plans for changing jump.  While there is ample ability space for introducing a new Lancer skillset, I actually think the job command is worth keeping around (unlike Charge).

Agreed.  Plus, I think there's a bunch of bullshit problems when it comes to a player character using an edited Jump menu that involves needing to master Squire and Squire needing to have equal or more abilities than the edited Lancer, etc.

(Luckily, this problem doesn't exist with Charge from what I've seen.)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! - Demo!!!
Post by: Dokurider on April 11, 2010, 05:04:08 pm
Downloading now.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D! - Demo!!!
Post by: Xifanie on April 11, 2010, 05:17:25 pm
tl;dr
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on April 11, 2010, 06:37:39 pm
QuoteMiluda's sprite working in-game is quite win, now epicsauce can be done with her and it won't look out of place!

Indeed, only now I can't seem to make a ppf with the change in place, unless it's the ppf is specifically applied to a clean iso that has been restructured by shishi.  It's a pain, really, but I'll keep playing with it.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: The Damned on April 11, 2010, 07:06:27 pm
Congratulations on finally getting your own forum, philsov.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Eternal on April 11, 2010, 11:09:27 pm
About time this got its own section. Congrats, Phil. ^_^
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Sephirot24 on April 12, 2010, 12:38:34 am
Holy shit, I knew you were gonna get your section sooner or later! Congrats Phil!! :D
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 12, 2010, 04:45:14 am
Quote from: "philsov"
QuoteMiluda's sprite working in-game is quite win, now epicsauce can be done with her and it won't look out of place!

Indeed, only now I can't seem to make a ppf with the change in place, unless it's the ppf is specifically applied to a clean iso that has been restructured by shishi.  It's a pain, really, but I'll keep playing with it.

...You're as bad as Eternal when it comes to that stupid program, really.

:p

Hopefully you can get it to work, a couple new / changed sprites where they're needed, maybe a couple extra sprites for bosses, etc. would be cool.

It'd also be cool to change a lot of the color palettes for generic jobs, but finding usable palettes / people to make usable palettes seems like it could be a pain... back burner idea, I suppose.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Timbo on April 16, 2010, 02:32:49 pm
You don't show on the main page where Squire and Chemist fit into the equation for stat growths.

I would assume Squire falls under "Fighter" and Chemist falls under "Status Mage".  Am I right?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 16, 2010, 03:00:26 pm
Lol, I love how there's a "Kick Ass" category.

I also love how Thieves give more PA growth than Monks... :'D
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on April 16, 2010, 04:43:19 pm
QuoteI would assume Squire falls under "Fighter" and Chemist falls under "Status Mage". Am I right?

Heh, indeed.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on May 18, 2010, 12:12:34 pm
With the introduction of several discoveries by formerdeathcorps, I'm pleased to include more hex/asm hacks into the fold!

Chickens regain 5 Br per action
Brave Up now increases Br by 10 per application
Faith Up now increases Fa by 10 per application
Arrow Guard now blocks gunshots (I guess we'll call it Missile Guard now?)
Performing units will evade attacks. (in fact, theres now no drawback with performing -- this will allow song and dance to be a large radius around the performer rather than hiding in the corner with 255/255 range)
Oil takes 2x damage from fire; float takes 2x damage from wind (v2) (fixed)

Now then, one thing I'm waffling about is

QuoteChange reaction ability activation rate (v1). Note, this affects all reactive counter abilities.
BATTLE.BIN
0x12639C change 0x64 to 0xYY
The chance of a reaction to activate is (Br / YY).

because, I can then set it to like 60.  Meaning anything at 60 Br or higher = 100% counter rate.  With this in place, I can then implement the Brave to Fury hack.  For those not versed in that hack, it turns Br and physical attacks to act very much like Fa and magic attacks -- more Br = more damage taken AND given.

Opinions?

Edit:  Raven, I already know your stance on the matter <3
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: The Damned on May 18, 2010, 02:21:34 pm
First, I would ask for a minor clarification: Do you mean that you're going to implement Fury regardless of what opinions are voiced? Or that you will only implement Fury if people voice that they want this to be set to 60?

Secondly, I have to say that I don't support a 100% counter rate, if only because of things like Dragon Spirit and Damage Split. It's a shame we can't affect Reaction skills individually yet.

Lastly, I'm not sure how I feel about Fury still to be honest. I'll probably end up using it in my hack, but it makes things way to hard to test, at least initially, since damage ends up varying so much. (I also don't think that changing the name is really necessary either.)

Shrug. All I know is that I don't want counter rates to be 100%, but that may just be me.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 18, 2010, 03:53:50 pm
I need to steal some of those hacks off FDC for something eventually.  Dayum.

Fury is fun, but playing with a lot of numbers makes me realize you need to be rather careful with it unless you design your power scales with it from the beginning.

This doesn't mean I'm against it at all though, really, though I don't see why you're relating Fury to Br% ability activation.  X/60 means any practical Br score has over 50% chance to trigger reaction, meaning Br manipulation beyond flexing your Fury damage potential is useless unless you're bombing yourself or someone down to some really low Br scores (even 15 Br gives a 25% reaction rate).

Unless that was your intent?  Though that seems odd, as the drawback for turtling out seems small unless you drop to extreme and already unnecessary numbers.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on May 18, 2010, 05:31:01 pm
QuoteDo you mean that you're going to implement Fury regardless of what opinions are voiced? Or that you will only implement Fury if people voice that they want this to be set to 60?

Neither.  I'm just at the sounding wall stage of the matter :).  Fury (simply being called so to differentiate it from Brave for the discussion) is a pretty cool concept, with variable physical damage much how faith matters in the realm of magic.  However, because the melee potential of a unit and its reaction rate are intertwined, the whole concept is marred -- I don't like a unit being double-dinged for having a low Br.  By upping the Br cap on reactions, this takes the sting out of it, which enables Fury to be present.  

It's very much of a package deal.  

QuoteX/60 means any practical Br score has over 50% chance to trigger reaction, meaning Br manipulation beyond flexing your Fury damage potential is useless unless you're bombing yourself or someone down to some really low Br scores (even 15 Br gives a 25% reaction rate).

Unless that was your intent?

Much like how altering one's faith only affects their magic, Br altering will be more for affecting melee potential rather than dealing with the reaction rate.  So... mostly my intent if I'm reading that correctly.

~

Similarly, I can be really devious and tie reaction rate to something like... level, which works out really well endgame but suuuuuuuucks when you're starting off.  

Or maybe even HP -- the more wounded you are the less likely you are to react.  HP restore gets boned, though.  This has the same problem as level though with scaling in that early on you're far more screwed than later, especially as its set to an exact number of HP (ie, greater than 150 HP = 100%, then grading linear downward from that).

Like I said, I'm still waffling on the fury thing anyways.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Dokurider on May 18, 2010, 06:03:10 pm
Wow, if this works out, Brave Up on MA fists are going to be sick.

Frankly, I like the idea of levels tying into reactions and I don't mind the idea of 100% reactions either. Sure it's going to suck at low levels, but it always sucks at low level.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 18, 2010, 06:12:09 pm
Quote from: "Dokurider"Wow, if this works out, Brave Up on MA fists are going to be sick.

Frankly, I like the idea of levels tying into reactions and I don't mind the idea of 100% reactions either. Sure it's going to suck at low levels, but it always sucks at low level.

Except then all reactions other than weapon guard and abandon are exponentially worse at early levels (low damage to enemy maxHP ratio and low activation chance).  I personally think that's too much.  The 100% trigger isn't bad, though I think philsov should edit the Fury hack so that the multiplier for increased damage dealt < the multiplier for increased damage taken, if Brave > X, which would then use Fury to balance that added benefit.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Dokurider on May 18, 2010, 06:33:13 pm
Well for one, weapon guard is an innate for everyone and abandon was removed from the game. Secondly, Reactions, offensive reactions in particular, aren't really a big part of the early game anyhow. Thirdly, we (okay, I) don't really know how levels are going to be incorporated in yet.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 18, 2010, 07:05:02 pm
Quote from: "philsov"However, because the melee potential of a unit and its reaction rate are intertwined, the whole concept is marred -- I don't like a unit being double-dinged for having a low Br.  By upping the Br cap on reactions, this takes the sting out of it, which enables Fury to be present.

Melee potential is easily fixed, though.  :o

Quote from: "philsov"Or maybe even HP -- the more wounded you are the less likely you are to react.  HP restore gets boned, though.  This has the same problem as level though with scaling in that early on you're far more screwed than later, especially as its set to an exact number of HP (ie, greater than 150 HP = 100%, then grading linear downward from that).

Like I said, I'm still waffling on the fury thing anyways.

You could always be a dick and add a jump, then use some free space to create a percentile like (CasCurrentHP - CasMaxHP) / CasMaxHP.  IIRC ASM values are unsigned, so this should result in a percentile that moves inversely to a character's HP total, with the code for drawing CasCurrentHP and CasMaxHP able to be drawn from the Lifebreak damage formula.  A similar formula would be CasMaxHP / ((25 * CasCurrentHP)/10) from what I can tell, but that shit's too ugly for me to want to play with much right now.

You could also do similar, with something like ((CBr/2)+(CFa/2)/100), so that both Brave and Faith are incorporated, making high-frequency reactions exclusive to characters who walk the fine line of high Br and Fa (and as such need more reactions to go off), and both Br and Fa are now equal in game influence damage and reaction wise.

Or for similar to what you were describing before, CasCurrentHP/CasMaxHP should work, though as you said it fucks HP Restore and co rather handily.


*I'm assuming ASM can handle mildly complicated math here of course, but given some of the damage formulas the game employs I don't see how it couldn't if you make a jump to a place with more space to handle the calculation.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: BlackMageShin on December 04, 2010, 01:01:21 pm
Is this mod based on 1.3 or is it a from-scratch project?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 04, 2010, 04:42:01 pm
I'd prefer to think of it as from-scratch that just-so-happens to have a lot of stuff in common in 1.3.

The goal is to make this different enough from 1.3 to stand out, be well-received, and provide a unique gameplay experience.  So there's a lot of stuff I've been intentionally altering just for the sake of being different from both 1.3 and newtype.

<3 Attack.out editor
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Eternal on December 04, 2010, 04:53:12 pm
Speaking of, Phil, are you still working on it? This board's been sadly quiet for a while. :(
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 04, 2010, 04:58:50 pm
not much recently, no.  Been sidetracked more with the 'escape from murond' idea than anything else.

As for the quietness, heh -- all that's left is solo grinding with ENTD/attack.out followthrough so there hasn't been much to announce or present.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Eternal on December 04, 2010, 05:01:02 pm
Yeah, I feel you on that. Let me know if you need any help with the Murond Escape patch. I'm busy with Newtype stuff, but I'd not mind helping you with that, too. :)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 04, 2010, 06:59:18 pm
If it makes you feel better I am really liking what you are doing with this patch and am excited to hear progress.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Zenius on December 06, 2010, 06:35:06 am
Same here. I was pretty hyped up about playing this TBH.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 06, 2010, 10:20:09 am
Hey philsov, is there anything that you would need assistance with this patch? I would love to see this finished, so if there is anything I can do to help, let me know...

If/when this patch is complete, would there be some kind of master guide available? I only ask because while the growths are very straight forward, the multipliers haven't been set in stone yet, and I am wondering if that kind of information we would have access to.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 06, 2010, 11:14:45 am
Quotewould there be some kind of master guide available

Oh, yes.  Whenever I sit down to work on this I have like 7 different things open at once, one of which is a master info spreadsheet.  (which is also a hindrance, this way I can't sit down for 20 minutes at a time and grindily work on this -- I'm bursty :) )

QuoteHey philsov, is there anything that you would need assistance with this patch? I would love to see this finished, so if there is anything I can do to help, let me know...

Certainly.  

1) Random battle mapping.  So far I've gone through all the maps in the game and given images proper X/Y coordinates for ENTD editing ease -- Zodiac's maps, while awesome for all other applications, suck from a perfectly vertical view which is how I do things sadly.  I've also noted default party starting locations for all storyline fights.  But, I have yet to note where the party spawns for all random fights.  For example, I know where Mandalia East (save Algus) starting points are, but I don't know the location in terms of X/Y of how the party starts out from Igros (West) or from Thieves Fort (south).  I can provide an endgame save that has the map unlocked if you need.  With this info I can also release these maps for anyone else's ENTD editing ease.
 
2) Battle ideas.  I've got most of the bosses mapped out, and decent progress on the storyline fights, but randoms and DD fights could use some major brainstorming -- not to mention a special space for the late-game difficult but not impossible battles for advanced gear.  Randoms can be arbitrary as hell, but arbirary as hell from different sources is more entertaining because if I do it all solo I fear they'll all be too similar.

3) Monster Skill ideas - I did a moderate monster overhaul but am drained for ideas for Monster Skills, specifically.  I'll post monster info so far soonish.  They are going to be similar to 1.3's in nature and function, with additional twists from other FF sources -- like Squids get a Rub ability to outright kill people, a Bull Demon is able to cast Holy, Ghosts are able to Possess people as a channeled charm ability, some monsters gain an attack skill with a 25% status proc, etc.

Edit:
4) Animation/effect help.  There is a whole bunch of new abilities for generics, specials, and bosses alike.  If anyone is interested in doing a bunch of trial and error to make these look at the very least acceptable (no singing animation to hit someone over the head with an axe, e.g.) or preferably outright awesome, please let me know so I can generate a patch/savegame to concentrate all these new abilities into a few single skillsets
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Eternal on December 06, 2010, 04:31:25 pm
I'm in the same boat with you on number 4. Sadly, with the Wiki down, that makes it that much harder. :(
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 06, 2010, 09:20:20 pm
Quote from: "philsov"1) Random battle mapping.  So far I've gone through all the maps in the game and given images proper X/Y coordinates for ENTD editing ease -- Zodiac's maps, while awesome for all other applications, suck from a perfectly vertical view which is how I do things sadly.  I've also noted default party starting locations for all storyline fights.  But, I have yet to note where the party spawns for all random fights.  For example, I know where Mandalia East (save Algus) starting points are, but I don't know the location in terms of X/Y of how the party starts out from Igros (West) or from Thieves Fort (south).  I can provide an endgame save that has the map unlocked if you need.  With this info I can also release these maps for anyone else's ENTD editing ease.

This is something that is time consuming, but I just might be able to grind and help with. Although, I have 2 questions:

1) Do you mean all the starting positions you can choose for your party members during the loadout screen? Like, the 8 spaces in Sweegy woods, all being marked by individual x/y coordinates? IE, Saying the starting position for a map would be (14,5) (14,6) (14,7) (14,8) (14,9) (15,5) (15,6) (15,7) (15,8) (15,9)?

2) Do you have a link to the easy to read vertical maps?

I will be able to do this, and give out random ideas (although it may take time for me to get started, as finals are a few days away) on ENTD randoms, so as long as there is no rush I look forward to helping.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 06, 2010, 09:34:31 pm
Quote1) Do you mean all the starting positions you can choose for your party members during the loadout screen?

Yup.  14,5 : 15:9 notation works just as well.

2) Sure, here's the attachment.  They're older maps, having exchanged hands like 3 times up this point and were mostly made by Zodiac's bestest fwiend in the whole wide worrrrld.  Obviously needs polish, but the blue dots are (default) storyline locations and yellows/off colors.  On some maps I got lazy and just circled the outline block, but eh.  I just dotted them up in paint, heh.  You're free to do the same, just use a different color and include a note on the map image on what's what.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 10, 2010, 11:12:31 pm
Two finals down, two to go. I will probably start after the next final is over (my last is physics and I'm not studying for that joke course), so I wanted to get a quick confirmation on two things.

#1. The maps you want done are:
Mandalia plains (West south east)
Fovoham plains (West south east)
Lenalia Plateau (North south)
Sweegy woods (east west)
Zeklaus desert (East west south)
Bervenia Volcano (North south)
Yuguo woods (East west)
Arauguay woods (East west)
Zirkile falls (East west south)
Barius hill (North south)
Zigolis swamp (east west)
Barius Valley (North west south)
Grog Hill (North east south)
Doguola Pass (East west)
Bed Desert (North South)
Finath River (east west)
Germinas peak (North south)
Poeskas lake (East west)
Doldobar swamp (East west)

Did I miss anything? Also, sorry if I get the east/west or something wrong (as in, what I call east is actually north, sometimes it is just hard to say).

#2. Would you prefer just data on all the maps, like a document with the starting locations in nice bracket notation, or would you like updated map files, or would you like both?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 11, 2010, 02:00:58 pm
1)*loads up game*

yup, thats all the green dots and locations!

2) Well, they'll ultimately become updated map files, so a document is unnecessary unless that's how you're doing it initially, in which case its more of a "may as well" deal.  Would prefer maps (I'm visual) if its all the same to you though :D
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 13, 2010, 05:59:45 pm
I got started, and am almost half way done (I hope you don't mind updated maps, it's easier than text notation :) )

Although, funny thing... I never even saw most of the 1.3 randoms, and I am kinda impressed. Fighting ramza, Olan, and then just randoms with tonnes and enemies.

What is weird is that I was doing bervenia, and have been actually just doing the randoms after they are mapped to get some JP for special characters, and Rafa (as a chemist) goes up to the top of the rock to snipe some guys with her magic gun, and I find a materia blade? Is this normal?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 13, 2010, 06:10:50 pm
Quote from: "Gotwald"What is weird is that I was doing bervenia, and have been actually just doing the randoms after they are mapped to get some JP for special characters, and Rafa (as a chemist) goes up to the top of the rock to snipe some guys with her magic gun, and I find a materia blade? Is this normal?

In 1.3?  Yes.  Chemists have innate Move-Find Item and Materia Blade is the Move-Find Item on the uppermost spot of the volcano.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 13, 2010, 10:30:15 pm
I love updated maps!  Just... include a key or something please.  Yellow = East, or something will suffice.  

QuoteI never even saw most of the 1.3 randoms, and I am kinda impressed.

Indeed.  A lot of effort went into them, and I don't think a majority of the playerbase has seen em for fear of their levels being affected (or they just hate randoms...)
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 14, 2010, 09:37:16 am
Quote from: "philsov"I love updated maps!  Just... include a key or something please.  Yellow = East, or something will suffice.  

Which is being done, and I should be done all the maps sometime this afternoon.

With regards to random ideas, do they all have to have the fancy names like others have posted? Or would enemies, map, and general map placement suffice?
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 14, 2010, 10:57:19 am
anything would suffice.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: Gotwald on December 16, 2010, 04:06:16 pm
I am completed!

Everything should be handy dandy, and if you see an error let me know and I can fix it post haste. I double checked all the positions, so they are right, but if I missed a map or you want me to add something, let me know.

A few odities though; Ramza learned ultima at finath river from and ultima demon, there was a battle in bed desert with assassins, a 3 way battle in germinas WITH Lezales (which I stole a setiemson from woo!), ran into a squire named Kanbabrif who turned me into liquid,  Lezales and the whole starter crew at zirkile who stomped me into the dirt, and found something called "deep dungeon".

Anyway, enough off topic ranting, here you go.
Title: Re: FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion
Post by: philsov on December 16, 2010, 04:22:33 pm
Woo hoo!

Thank you very much Gotwald :D

@ your randoms -- heh, yeah.  Lotta fun little fights there.  Kanbabrif is a fan-made video by Bastard Poetry, a member here.  "More broken than Math Skill Orlandu with Worker 8's tied to his feet", if I remember the quote correctly.

QuoteThe Chronicles of Kanbabrif

http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrathindex.html (http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrathindex.html)


Part I / The Villain of Ivalice



Created by Bastard Poetry
Release Date: June 11th, 2008
Running Time: 33:25

http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrath1.html (http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrath1.html)

Download Windows Media version:

http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:799 ... 3ddaa65727 (http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:79909469?v=1&e=1244794755&h=97561a538c73416f0b6dca7cec34a520&uh=56b45ba79150c1e9cd37cb3ddaa65727)

1280x720, 271.16MB



Part II / Zhargidan Lament (TRAILER)
http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrath2.html (http://www.museofoblivion.com/kwrath2.html)

SNEAK PEEK - Scene 5 (Rough draft)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gqz31OQAFQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gqz31OQAFQ)

Deep Dungeon... is where the big boys play.