FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[formerdeathcorps]

I already did that for monsters in my patch.  It took me 4-6 hours to redo all the ENTDs, though I was also bug-checking.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I already did that for monsters in my patch.  It took me 4-6 hours to redo all the ENTDs, though I was also bug-checking.

I see.

That is tedious. :/

Then again, he's using 1.3 base and probably changing a lot of battles anyway from the sounds of it, so it may be less work pending on what his changes are.  Then again, it could also be more...

[The Damned]

Argh. The ENTD. I still have no idea if I'm even using it right....

You've given me quite a few things to think through, formerdeathcrops. For that I thank you.

Philsov, I just looked at the Spellbook for Blue Mages again and I was curious about something. Although I've pretty much decided on what I want (and so far my Blue Magic skill set looks almost completely different from yours), I'm curious as to whether you've significantly alerted any of the monster abilities that are part of that Spellbook. (Well, I'm curious if there are any monster skills you've significantly altered in general.)

Early Morning EDIT: It also just occurred to me that Wind-wise, we all forgot Geomancy, though I think that only Kamaitachi and Gusty Wind are Wind.

[philsov]

I'm curious as to whether you've significantly alerted any of the monster abilities that are part of that Spellbook. (Well, I'm curious if there are any monster skills you've significantly altered in general.)

Nope, but when selecting the spellbook I wondered if any monster ability would be imbalanced on a human, because in order to make it balanced I'd have to somehow nerf the monster, which I simply didn't want to do.  The only things I changed are coeffecients -- choco cure, for example, I wanna say is something like MA * 8 (it used to be 4?) so a human can use it fine, but then I needed to half chocobo MA so its own choco cure isn't ridiculous.  And then when I did that I had to double Choco Meteor.

In general?  Nah.  Though tbh I haven't really looked at them extensively either.  Some of the more absurd ones (Nose Breath, Hold Tight, etc) are probably going to get an MA + X effect attached rather than 100%.

[The Damned]

Well, considering that Nose Bracelet originally had a MA+X% formula and Hold Tight is from the Zodiac's Fear skillset, those would possibly be sensible changes, although Hold Tight seems like a lesser priority since it's not readily available to the Woodfolk unlike Uribos and their Nose Bracelet.

My last question regarding your Blue Mage for now is whether its supposed to have only 14 skills or if you're just currently undecided as to what you want your last two to be.

[philsov]

My last question regarding your Blue Mage for now is whether its supposed to have only 14 skills or if you're just currently undecided as to what you want your last two to be.

A little of both, really.  The skillset already features a good spread from the monster families, has a nice selection regarding stat priorities (PA/MA/neutral-ish, etc), and has ranged attacks, AoE attacks, curing, and mana draining -- complete with a decent elemental spread too.  I don't want to give them either revival or status removal.  And, yes, while it lacks a few iconic abilities (bad breath, self destruct, etc) those abilities are either redundant or overpowered.  Having another PA-based ability would be cool (possibly something from the Work skillset), but I see no reason to have 16 just to have 16.

[formerdeathcorps]

Notice that there are 5 (MA+X)% formulas.  I don't think they're all the same.

3D seems always to be used on attacks where magic defense up will lower the proc rate.
41 is used for galaxy stop.  Lowered by Magic Defense UP, but if I remember correctly from Aerostar, Galaxy Stop isn't affected by Zodiac compatibility.
50 seems always to be used on attacks where defense up will lower the proc rate.
51 seems always to be used on attacks where neither will lower the proc rate, but Zodiac compatibility still might.
We can also technically can set formula 2A (talk skill) for any status inflicting formula without interference from either form of support-skill defense (though finger guard will block it, and Zodiac compatibility clearly matters here).

What complicates the issue is that every attack using formula 50 also has the fourth unknown flag (under the learn via JP sub-menu) checked, so I can't exactly be sure if it is formula 50 or Unknown Flag 4 that's flagging the status effect as physical.

[The Damned]

So noted on both your parts.

I too concur that Self-Destruct is too overpowered for Blue Mages to have, especially with cheap revival around and it being unavoidable.

Blue EDIT: Also, I've thought about it, and I'm not sure. Do we know how enemy Blue Mages act if all their skills are Learn on Hit only? Will they have any skills? All of them? Or are we going to have set their skills in the ENTD? Because the few things I've tried to do with ENTD haven't worked out.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

A little of both, really.  The skillset already features a good spread from the monster families, has a nice selection regarding stat priorities (PA/MA/neutral-ish, etc), and has ranged attacks, AoE attacks, curing, and mana draining -- complete with a decent elemental spread too.  I don't want to give them either revival or status removal.  And, yes, while it lacks a few iconic abilities (bad breath, self destruct, etc) those abilities are either redundant or overpowered.  Having another PA-based ability would be cool (possibly something from the Work skillset), but I see no reason to have 16 just to have 16.

I don't like the idea of taking from the Work skillset -Worker 8 and co seem a little bit too far removed from the rest of Ivalice for a Blue Mage to be able to easily copy them.  Speaking of Worker 8, are you going to make his skillset something other than "Epic Lasers, Falcon Punch, Full Cure"?

I kinda like the idea of Triple Attack, though.  It's powerful, but end-game Blue Magic is going to be.  My only thought is that it might conflict with Wave Around... unless I'm forgetting something big in terms of AoE or formula.

Is there anything in the Apanda's or Byblos' skillsets worth making into Blue Magic?




Minorly related but not really question:  If I'm remembering right, some monster attacks are really nothing more than a glorified attack command.  Could these be removed and simply replaced with the actual "Attack" command without glitching something out so we can om nom nom on their ability slots?    Pending how industrious everything gets, we may as well cram efficiency out of every possible orifice.

[Sephirot24]

How about something like Odd Soundwave for Blue Mage? We don't have any Squid ability, and the one which causes confusion / berserk (*ugh*.. can't remember the name... Mind something) seems a little too powerful. And with lowered working chances it'd be semi-worthless.

Also, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

Another signature BM ability we don't have is Scan (or some form of it). It'd be awesome if we could have a scan ability that let us see a ??? stat unit as if it were a regular one as long as it has scan status. BUT I don't know how would that be possible to do, so probably "yeah, can be done - no, WE can't do it" =P

But anyways, just trying to come up with more signature abilities

[formerdeathcorps]

Minorly related but not really question: If I'm remembering right, some monster attacks are really nothing more than a glorified attack command. Could these be removed and simply replaced with the actual "Attack" command without glitching something out so we can om nom nom on their ability slots? Pending how industrious everything gets, we may as well cram efficiency out of every possible orifice.

No.   I already tried that.  Doing that causes monsters not to use the "normal attack" at all.

Is there anything in the Apanda's or Byblos' skillsets worth making into Blue Magic?

If I remember correctly, parasite inflicts the same things as bad breath, difference is hardly useful except against mages and Zodiacs, energy is just ranged wish (which nobody used past Chapter 1 anyways), shock already exists on TK, and bio2/3 feels more like oracle or BM attacks.
By the way, wave around > triple attack since wave around hits in all 4 directions and doesn't incur evasion.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

No.   I already tried that.  Doing that causes monsters not to use the "normal attack" at all.

Well that's a bitch.

If I remember correctly, parasite inflicts the same things as bad breath, difference is hardly useful except against mages and Zodiacs, energy is just ranged wish (which nobody used past Chapter 1 anyways), shock already exists on TK, and bio2/3 feels more like oracle or BM attacks.

So no.  K.  So unless Blue Magic is given Aqua Soul or something to cover Water elemental, there's not much else to give it that I can see.

By the way, wave around > triple attack since wave around hits in all 4 directions and doesn't incur evasion.

If he's using 1.3's Triple Attack, it has an extra space of AoE, so Wave Around hits behind and has 100% rate while Triple Attack is a giant bitchslap across the front with some really nice Vertical Tolerance (IIRC).  To be honest, that could actually be a nice contrast for physical abilities, so I'd say they'd not be that contradictory at all.

I just restored my 1.3 file, so the holy Ajora knows I'll be dealing with the lovely buffed version of that attack at Nevleska Temple very soon.  I might even try to Invite a Tiamat and name it Fluffy, heh...

Also, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

*Sees a Skeleton*

*Clicks status to see what ASM'D has done to them*

*Sees Math Skill*

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-



EDIT:  Those shitty Movement abilities that no one uses: Make them Support Abilities?  I remember Asmo saying ages ago in the thread that they work fine as Support Abilities (or that Teleport did, or something).  While there's no way a player in their right mind would use them over Move +2, there may be justification in using one of them over a Support ability like Attack UP pending on the map, which would at least give them niche use at the cost of additional damage or something.

[The Damned]

As I said in the Job Skills thread, formerdeathcorps did a hell of a lot updating in the Wiki recently. I would say thanks is due.

How about something like Odd Soundwave for Blue Mage? We don't have any Squid ability, and the one which causes confusion / berserk (*ugh*.. can't remember the name... Mind something) seems a little too powerful. And with lowered working chances it'd be semi-worthless.

Mind Blast. And, as I just posted in the Job skills thread, that won't work. Learn on Hit doesn't work if the unit is inflicted with Petrify, Stop, Berserk, Confusion, Don't Act, Blood Suck, Sleep and, of course, Dead.

That said, Blaster also doesn't work, though, and that's in the spellbook. Hey, philsov, did you change Blaster?

Also, LVL abilities! Remember other blue mages in the past, Quina comes to mind, they have stuff like LVL3 Defense down, LVL4 Holy, LVL5 Death. Those are actually quite possible to do as they are the old Calculator abilities.

Thing is though, that the Calculator abilities were separate abilities in and of themselves rather than any actual modification to a formula. You could easily get a Level 4 Holy or Level 5 Death for human though some forced skills, but for a monster...? It would probably take a disgusting amount of ASM, especially since we can't even affect the Math Skill abilities by themselves right now.

Another signature BM ability we don't have is Scan (or some form of it). It'd be awesome if we could have a scan ability that let us see a ??? stat unit as if it were a regular one as long as it has scan status. BUT I don't know how would that be possible to do, so probably "yeah, can be done - no, WE can't do it" =P

But anyways, just trying to come up with more signature abilities

That's an interesting thought, though I don't know how much use it would have. Still, maybe there would be a way to utilize Dark/Evil Looking for this purpose if one wanted to, especially since I don't think Dark/Evil Looking ever wears off by itself.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Mind Blast. And, as I just posted in the Job skills thread, that won't work. Learn on Hit doesn't work if the unit is inflicted with Petrify, Stop, Berserk, Confusion, Don't Act, Blood Suck, Sleep and, of course, Dead.

That said, Blaster also doesn't work, though, and that's in the spellbook. Hey, philsov, did you change Blaster?

Well, that's a bitch.

Since I'm assuming he wants a status-grounded Blue Magic, do any worthwhile ones come to mind / could one be made with a quick edit of Blaster or some other similar skill?




Aside  (aka, random thought that I'm posting while I remember it still):

I've done some meditation on Specials (Mustadio, etc.), and I've got some ideas that should be (mostly) usable, assuming they work.  (I've no time to test the ones I question via FFTPatcher, atm, sadly, due to 2 months of backed up trig homework).

Mustadio: Give his class the ability to Equip Robes.  Simplest solution to preserving his later-game utility once the player has Magic Guns.  With his middling Faith, Generic Mediators with Black Robes, higher permanent Faith, and Magic Attack UP make the best player-controlled gunners, oftentimes, as they cause noticeably higher damage.   Allowing Mustadio to at least match the Black Robe + Magic Attack UP portion of the equation with his lower (62, IIRC?) permanent Faith only seems logical, honestly.   It'd at least put him roughly on par with said Mediators in terms of gunning potential, especially if his skillset actually gets a skill that's worthwhile during a boss fight.  Stat breaks have questionable accuracy (especially since, IIRC, they're PA based and this is Mustadio) and if you're bringing him in to stat break, he's probably a Ninja anyway.  His original 3 skills are obviously worthless against most boss-level enemies and are Speed based (and this is ASM'D...), meaning the times he actually CAN use them... he's again probably better off as a Ninja half the time to ensure they stick.  Robes and some skills that are useful against bosses in some way are the main things he needs, imo.

Agrias... err, well, Holy Sword: Can Stasis Sword / Lightning Stab / Holy Explosion be made into Ice / Lightning / Holy Elementals while Split Punch and Crush Punch remain the element of the equipped weapon?  That'd be a cool angle to take if we could that would make Holy Sword a bit more dynamic (the 1.3 changes in terms of MP costs, Vert and range changes, etc. do a lot to create a foundation here, but in the end it only does so much).  I'd like to give Holy Sword a couple extra abilities to break up the monotony as well (since in the end, it's still just Cross AoE / 1-target AoE Sword-level damage + Holy Explosion), but I'm pretty sure we can both agree that adding more to an already useful skillset is low on the priority list.  At least making what skills it does contain more distinct would be nice, then whatever ability slots are left over once all the important stuff is fixed could be directed here...

Orlandu:  If we give Gafgarion more abilities, Orlandu should be given one of them if he's keeping his 1.3 loadout so he has a 2 : 2 : 2 : 2 ratio between Dark / Holy / Mighty / Ruin Swordskills.  Otherwise, I think he's alright.

Ramza:  Remember the whole rumor about Ramza being able to consume Gafgarion's Crystal and get his abilities from waaaaaaaaaaay back in the olden days?  Would you be interested in implementing something like that (Ramza eats his Crystal, gains weaker versions of some number of Gafgarion's Swordskills based on how many Guts abilities their are when all is said and done)?  I'll need to look over FFTPatcher tomorrow to double check some things to be sure / possibly test, but I think I've devised a really clever and painless way of making this work if you're interested and have the ability slots left over.

Meliadoul:  See Agrias.  It'd be nice to do something nifty but its very low priority since she's usable regardless.

Outside of already voiced concerns about Worker 8 and maybe Byblos, I think that covers all the Specials that could potentially use new abilities / ability tweaks.

[The Damned]

Well, that's a bitch.

Since I'm assuming he wants a status-grounded Blue Magic, do any worthwhile ones come to mind / could one be made with a quick edit of Blaster or some other similar skill?

If you mean any worthwhile ones from vanilla (or even 1.3), then I'd have to say "no", especially if we're asking about monsters that still aren't represented. The best are current Poison Nail, which is somewhat pathetic but could work, and Odd Soundwave, which would be going against philsov not wanting his Blue Mages to have status removal. By that same token, a lot of the other status inflicted is left are both things that philsov would probably think are ovepowered and (have a chance to) screw up Learn on Hit anyway, i.e. Bad Bracelet, Beak, Pooh, Blood Suck, etc.

Now that I think about it, I should probably test out Frog and Charm to see if they screw up Learn on Hit. Frog probably does, but Charm seems like it might not. Still, it doesn't cancel Charging....

Regardless, a quick edit of Blaster can be made; it just probably won't look anything like FFT vanilla & 1.3's Blaster, which may not be a bad thing (since Blaster still sucks in 1.3). You can just go along historical lines for Blaster--that's what I did when I gave Blaster to my Blue Mage and that's one of the Blue Magic skills I'm more certain about keeping.

Agrias... err, well, Holy Sword: Can Stasis Sword / Lightning Stab / Holy Explosion be made into Ice / Lightning / Holy Elementals while Split Punch and Crush Punch remain the element of the equipped weapon?  That'd be a cool angle to take if we could that would make Holy Sword a bit more dynamic (the 1.3 changes in terms of MP costs, Vert and range changes, etc. do a lot to create a foundation here, but in the end it only does so much).  I'd like to give Holy Sword a couple extra abilities to break up the monotony as well (since in the end, it's still just Cross AoE / 1-target AoE Sword-level damage + Holy Explosion), but I'm pretty sure we can both agree that adding more to an already useful skillset is low on the priority list.  At least making what skills it does contain more distinct would be nice, then whatever ability slots are left over once all the important stuff is fixed could be directed here...

Holy Sword skills were already Holy. I think the Holiness just doesn't take due to some bug in the game that can be ASM'd out or something like that. Lightning Stab is already Holy and Lightning, surprisingly. I remember being surprised when I edited Holy Sword a few days ago.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Regardless, a quick edit of Blaster can be made; it just probably won't look anything like FFT vanilla & 1.3's Blaster, which may not be a bad thing (since Blaster still sucks in 1.3). You can just go along historical lines for Blaster--that's what I did when I gave Blaster to my Blue Mage and that's one of the Blue Magic skills I'm more certain about keeping.

Seems like a good idea.

Holy Sword skills were already Holy. I think the Holiness just doesn't take due to some bug in the game that can be ASM'd out or something like that. Lightning Stab is already Holy and Lightning, surprisingly. I remember being surprised when I edited Holy Sword a few days ago.

Oic.

I would've thought such a fix would've already been found, honestly.   It seems simple enough, but then again, I don't code in ASM.

[Zaen]

There is a fix. It's in orgASM packed with FFTPatcher in the latest version... Weapon something Fix.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

There is a fix. It's in orgASM packed with FFTPatcher in the latest version... Weapon something Fix.

Haha.

I've been wondering what the hell that Weapon Strike Fix thing did since the box comment is really vague, IIRC.

Problem solved before it even got caused, then.

[Skip Sandwich]

specifically, the fix lets you choose between having the skill override the weapon element, or applying both elements at once, just by setting a byte in the patcher (so you can have abilities that exhibit both behaviors)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

specifically, the fix lets you choose between having the skill override the weapon element, or applying both elements at once, just by setting a byte in the patcher (so you can have abilities that exhibit both behaviors)

So we could have something like (assuming I remember the FFTPatcher interface correctly, I can't check until I get out of trig class in a few hrs):

Stasis Sword (Ice, overrides Weapon Element)
Split Punch (No innate Element, Weapon Element factored)
Crush Punch (Above)
Lightning Stab (Lightning, overrides Weapon Element)
Holy Explosion (Holy, overrides Weapon Element)

Sweet.

Doing something like that could be really cool, especially if making it happen is as simple as you said.