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FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

Started by philsov, October 11, 2009, 04:38:12 pm

philsov

October 11, 2009, 04:38:12 pm Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 04:12:00 pm by philsov
New patch in the works!  



Three main goals:

- Include a lot of ASM hacks made to date
- Put a stronger emphasis on character/party placement
- Increased balance between classes

Details:


- Reduction of range/movement across the board.  Base move reduced to 2-3, move +3, teleport removed from the game, reduction in +move accessories.  Range for most abilities reduced to 3, with a few past that.

- The ASM/hex hacks made to date, including the following:

Jump increase to 3/2 regardless of weapon equipped
Broken/stolen items can be bought back at the fur shop
Defending reduces physical damage by 25%
Wall reduces all damage to 1
Poison/Regen damage/healing effect capped at 999 health
Drain effects capped at 999 health
Soldier office can rename anyone
Special chars can go on propositions
Undead takes 25% damage from Phoenix Down
Remove permanent effects of Br/Fa modication (+ bring back/buff praise/preach/threaten/etc)
Weapon Guard evade for all (shields/mantles re-adjusted)
Axes/Flails get new formula of ((0 + (1..PA)) + PA) * WP.  (WP to be adjusted)
Global Class-evade (now affects side and back)
AI attacks transparent units
Mighty Sword works on monsters and Zodiacs
Equip Spear now equips both Spears and Sticks
Equip Clothes (new skill, goodbye Equip Katana) now enables hats and light armor
Equip Mageset (new skill, goodbye Equip Axe) now enables rods, staves, and books
Equip Meleeset (new skill, goodbye Equip Sword) now enables Swords, Axes, and Flails
Equip Bow now enables Longbow and Crossbow


More tweaks:
- Speed growths halved throughout the game.  Base speed at level 99 will be about 9.  This provides a much more stable curve for all charge-time abilities throughout the game, and hopefully does not force all casters into short charge by end game.

- Daggers are gaining 25% chance to inflict various status
- Spears grant +PA
- Axe, Flail WP altered in line with their new formula.
- Epic Caster hat and Epic Light Armor Hat introduced as DD move-finds. Barette/Cashusa removed from the game.
- Perfumes, Bags, and Ribbon are now unisex.
- Poaching nerfed to the ground.  Poachable items that outclass anything storebought will now be either stealables or war trophies, found in random battles on late-game maps such as Dolbodar.

- New class!  Blue mage!  Replaces the calculator, and gains its action abilities from monsters and a few from bosses.  below average HP, above average MP, average SP, above-average PA and MA.  Monster skills and monsters MA/PA altered to fit on both monsters and humans.  Able to equip light armor and robes, along with swords and staves.  
Choco Cure
Goblin Punch
Look of Devil
Small Flame
Drain Touch

Leaf Dance
Thunder Breath
Wave Around
Sudden Cry
Dark Holy

Bio3 - Queklain
Quake - ???
Melt - ???
Tornado - ???

- Archers are gaining a real skillset!
Camoflague - Self only, add transparent
Execute - Deals 21% HP damage to a unit in the critical status.  Non-evadeable, instant.
Poison Volley - Inflicts Poison to an AoE.  
Aim - Deals WP*SP damage, unevadeable.  Has synergy with two-swords.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence
Salve - Cleanses target various negative status, and heals for 20% health upon success.

- AoE from Draw Out and Summon Magic modified -- now featuring linear attacks, 3-way attacks, and good old classic aoe.  Smart-targetting function also removed from many abilities.

- Item skillset reformed.  Auto-potion effect capped at 100 HP.  Single-status removal items gone.  All status removing is now in either Remedy or Holy Water.  When either Remedy or Holy Water is successful, the target is now also healed for anywhere from 1 to 150 HP.  New potion class heals for 200 HP (auto-potion immune).  New Ether class grants 80 MP.  Gained three new skills which can be used offensively or defensively, whichever tickles your fancy:

Dual Kiss - Grants both Haste and Poison to the target
Turtle Shell - Grants both Slow and Protect to the target
Shade of Grey - Grants either Faith or Innocent to the target

- Steal Gil, Steal Exp removed from the game.  New Thief skill, Muddle, inflicts the confusion status to the target, with the same chance to work as Steal Heart -- only this one ignores gender.

- Negotiate and Death Sentence Talk Skills removed from the game.  Talk skill given the 4 moves from 1.3 -- warn (inflicts defend), threaten (inflicts Don't Act), Preach (inflicts reraise), and Refute (cancels most status effectis) along with the 4 original Br/Fa modifiers, who now modify in increments of 10 in either direction.

- Elemental diversified slightly -- some panels effects are now either Pure PA or MA-based damage, and a few retain the older composite formula.

- Ice/Fire/Bolt/Cure 4 modified into 0 CTR, single-panel abilities with teir 2.5 strength and moderate MP cost (named Freeze, Blaze, Jolt, and Solace, respectively).  Power of 1 through 3 shifted.
- Shatter, new wizard spell, removes defending, protect, and/or shell and in doing so deals 30% HP damage to the target.
- Comet, new time mage spell, is 0 CTR, single-panel ability of teir 2 strength with moderate MP cost and no elemental property.
- Quell, new yin-yang spell, is a 0 CTR, single-panel ability with a likely success rate (faith based) of canceling the charging status.
- Silf, new Summon Magic spell, is a 0 CTR, single-panel ability with the ability to inflict both Don't Move and Poison.  
- Blind Blade, new squire skill, inflicts PA*WP damage with a 100% chance to blind the target with a minor MP cost.
- Counter Condemn, new monk skill, counter attacks with a chance to inflict death sentence on the target.  Counter Tackle removed.
- Cleave, new knight ability, has a chance to deal 50% HP damage.
- Pierce, new squire ability, affects a two-panel range.
- Blind Blow, new squire ability, is a normal melee attack with a 100% chance to blind the target.

- (From 1.3) Samurai lose innate two hands, Thieves lose innate concentrate

- Ninja recieves massive PA reduction to compensate for innate two-swords.

- Hamedo, Abandon, MP Switch removed from the player's arsenal.  With weapon guard innate, Squires gain Counter, Knights gain Meatbone Slash, and Samurai gain Br Up.   Both Bards and Dancers will have both PA and MA save reactions.  Distribute given to the Oracle class.

- Move +3, Teleport removed from the player's arsenal.  Thieves gain Move +1, Bards and Dancers gain Move +2.  Move HP up is now a Knight ability, while Move MP-Up is a wizard ability.  Fly given to the Oracle class.  

- Monsters all given the Caution reaction ability has a secondary reaction.  Mimes lose innate Monster Skill - gain both Counter and Counter Magic.  All zodiac bosses given a new primary and secondary reaction ability.  Those are a surprise :)

- Rad/Lavian/Alicia/Agrias/Mustadio enter with better jobs unlocked.[/quote]

New job tree.  In trying to even out the generic classes, the higher-teired jobs are now slightly easier to unlock.  

BASIC JOBS: (no unlocking required)
Chemist, Squire, Knight, Archer, Priest, Wizard.

SECONDARY JOBS:
Monk: 3 Chemist + 3 Knight
Lancer: 3 Knight + 3 Archer
Thief: 3 Archer + 3 Squire
Blue Mage: 3 Squire + 3 Wizard
Oracle: 3 Priest + 3 Wizard
Mediator: 3 Chemist + 3 Priest
Geomancer: 3 Knight + 3 Wizard

TERTIARY JOBS::
Samurai: 4 Monk + 4 Lancer
Ninja: 4 Thief + 4 Lancer
Dancer: 4 Geomancer + 4 Lancer
Time Mage: 4 Mediator + 4 Oracle
Summoner: 4 Oracle + 4 Blue Mage
Bard: 4 Geomancer + 4 Oracle
Mime: 4 Monk + 4 Lancer + 4 Thief + 4 Blue Mage + 4 Oracle + 4 Mediator + 4 Geomancer

- New stat growths, falling into 6 archetypal classes.  All generics and specials belong to one of these categories.  Ultimately the gaps creating by going pure Fighter or Blaster mage will be about 3 points of PA/MA at level 99, which is roughly the same as the male/female gap.  It can ultimately be ignored, but those really looking to min-max their units, the option is certainly available.

High-healths:  Knight, Monk, Lancer + Agrias/Orlandu/Meliadoul -- best HP growth, bad MP growth, good PA growth, worst MA growth.
Fighters: Archer, Thief, Dancer, Ninja, Squire + Mustudio -- average HP growth, worst MP growth, best PA growth, worst MA growth
Hybrids: Geomancer, Samurai, Blue Mage + Malak/Beowulf/Cloud -- average HP growth, bad MP growth, good PA growth, good MA growth
Status Mages: Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Mediator, Chemist -- average HP growth, best MP growth, worst PA growth, good MA growth
Blaster Mages: Wizard, Summoner, Bard + Rafa -- worst HP growth, good MP growth, worst PA growth, best MA growth
Kick Ass:  Mime, Ramza/Reis --  above average across the board

- Change/variance within weapon choice (and their new W.Ev figures).  

- Updating class evasion to jive better with scheme and global aspect

- New status durations/charge times -- In response to less speed as the game continues, status duration has increased by roughly 20%, being balanced around having 8 speed.  Spell charge time now a steadier curve, as well.

ENTD Progress: ~25%
Mechanical Progress: ~80%
Hopeful Hex Hax0ring Progress: 33%
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

LastingDawn

October 11, 2009, 05:43:49 pm #1 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
I like the idea, but I'm not so keen on the "Jump 3/2 Regardless of Weapon" hack, Jump is already a fantastic skillset, and it devalues Equip Spear, that people may use with Jump.

Also as for your comments in the first video...

I cannot agree that FFT's story becomes "normal" after Chapter 2, FFT is still a very unique game, and in a way Was the original Da Vinci code. The web of lies, intrigue, and ancient conspiracy the first time through the game was awing, at least to me. To me the story just became more incredible after Chapter 2, the Lucavi as they are displayed in FFT are mysterious, dreadfully creepy, and threatening (unfortunately gameplay for them doesn't measure up...). Delita becomes the helm of the politics while Ramza does what Delita cannot, he deals with the roots of the problems. The Glabados Faith and the demons playing puppet master (poor Funeral...) Also the game doesn't deviate from it's political implications Delita keeps that all in the player's minds. WoTL manages to accomplish this even better with the Delita Scenarios they had added. FFT's story is anything but normal and generic, while demons and magic stones are generic, it's the case they used with each that makes FFT a very dark and foreboding story. It was not a "typical" Final Fantasy story.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

philsov

October 11, 2009, 06:20:43 pm #2 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
I find jump to be quite a lackluster skillset, largely because using it basically requires a support slot used up as well.  In terms of damage it is inferior to throw in almost every aspect, save the ability to avoid incoming charge effects.  

As for the story, it seems we disagree, but in either case its in need of some meta humor.  Maybe even a new ending :)
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Dome

October 11, 2009, 06:45:51 pm #3 Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 01:11:11 pm by Dome
Quote from: "philsov"Maybe even a new ending :)
Princess Ovelia accepts the flowers, kisses Delita, then she cast Non-charged dark holy killing him, and then she turns into Altima
LULZ xD

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 06:47:16 pm #4 Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 07:03:26 pm by Sephirot24
@ Br / Fa modding: if abilities which can lower Br/Fa make a comeback, abilities to rise it must come back. There's no sense in only being able to lose it and not being able to recover; it's like insta-reset for most of the cases. However, I'd rather not have any of those back. But that's just me... imagining 30 Fa , 97 Br units... If you could cap Br and Fa at 40 (lowest) and 70 (highest), then it's ok.

@ Changing story and getting humor IN: sounds fine to me, do as you please... I think I'll enjoy it either way :( Teleport looks absolutely cool, and also is much more riskier than Move+2 in most cases...

@ Two Swords / Two Hands / Short Charge innates: leave those innate and make Short Charge innate for Sage. They're supposed to be some kind of "Ultimate" classes, and yeah mages were always at disadvantage, so innate Short Charge for their "ultimate" class makes total sense.

@ Draw out... with reduced movement making it "ally only/enemy only" would solve the problem, but it'd make it slightly OP. Maybe adding a small MP cost, or adding a very small charge time...

@ Monsters with multiple reactions: ...how does that work? If a chocobo has counter and counter tackle, 70 Br and I attack him, he'd have, 70% chance of using counter and then another 70% chance to use counter tackle? That seems a little too much... =/

I probably forgot more stuff so I may edit again later..

philsov

October 11, 2009, 06:58:49 pm #5 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
Quoteif abilities which can lower Br/Fa make a comeback, abilities to rise it must come back. There's no sense in only being able to lose it and not being able to recover; it's like insta-reset for most of the cases.

1) Package deal.  The raisers and the droppers.

2) It's in-battle only, as in it resets between battles.  The 97 Br unit would only come into existence after a few rounds of praising/cheer up -- think accumulate, only except with brave and faith.  The same can be said for brave/faith lowering -- If you want to make a target immune to magic damage you can Solution them for a few rounds and then they're set -- are increments of 10 too much?.  But more importantly it doesn't carry over.

QuotePlease, 3 base move to "melee" oriented units and 2 base move to "ranged" oriented units!

Ramza is a samurai for both the 2nd and 3rd videos, rocking 3 and 4 move (move +1 and move+2), respectively.  The monks (also in the 2nd and 3rd pairs) also have 2 movement.  "Melee" is fine at 2.  Only things with 3 will be squires, thieves, and ninjas.  Torn on geos...
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 07:32:05 pm #6 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Sephirot24
Hey Phil, check out my first post which I edited!

@ Br / Fa: you're saying that the modding would only last for the actual battle? That's fine IMO. However, we would be losing Threaten/Cheer up/Scream/etc as they are now?

@ Base move tweaking: fine, have it your way. I may as well complain AFTER I play the patch... YOU'RE LEAVING MOVE+1 ON THE SQUIRE SKILLSET AND MOVE+2 ON THIEF SKILLSET THOUGH, RIGHT?

I have a suggestion I ALWAYS ALWAYS make and no one listens. I'll quote myself from the original 1.3 Easytype topic:
QuoteOne thing I always, always, always say and no one listens: mage's charge time! They're awesome in the early game, and then in mid CH2 / early CH3 you're forced to give them Short Charge as support, or else they'll always be killed / critic'ed before successfully casting. IIRC there was some kind of hack that involved speed or the unit's level into the formula to solve this... is this a possible (wanted?) change? Or is this straying too far from the aim of the patch?

philsov

October 11, 2009, 07:55:01 pm #7 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
QuoteMaybe adding a small MP cost, or adding a very small charge time...

Impossible due to DO's formula, regrettably.

Quote@ Br / Fa: you're saying that the modding would only last for the actual battle? That's fine IMO. However, we would be losing Threaten/Cheer up/Scream/etc as they are now?

I'm pretty sure there aren't enough ability slots left to keep both the new skills and bring back in the old ones.  I may be able to squeeze them in via ability consolidation/removal, but I'd like to see if it's even warranted in the first place.

QuoteYOU'RE LEAVING MOVE+1 ON THE SQUIRE SKILLSET AND MOVE+2 ON THIEF SKILLSET THOUGH, RIGHT?

No, I'm not.  I don't know what your fascination is with melee units all having the ability to bypass weapon guard and shields and backstab in all cases is, but it is something this patch will hopefully remedy.  The current plan is to give Move+1 to thieves, Move HP Up to knights and Move MP up to wizards.  The movement slot won't stay empty for long.  As for teleport, I wish Raz were still around because he had a hack in the works to reduce additional panels for teleport at a 20% chance reduction... which would work GREAT in this context.  But under the current conditions 10% for each additional panel, along with the ability to ignore height/fly is just absurd.

QuoteMultiple reactions ...how does that work? If a chocobo has counter and counter tackle, 70 Br and I attack him, he'd have, 70% chance of using counter and then another 70% chance to use counter tackle? That seems a little too much... =/

First they'd be multiplicative... so assuming counter has highest priority, in response to a melee attack:

70% chance to Counter
21% chance to counter tackle
9% to not counter

I'm personally more interested in combining abilities with different triggers, like HP restore and counter, counter and counter magic, abandon + hp restore + damage split, and such.

QuoteOne thing I always, always, always say and no one listens: mage's charge time!

The only way to make them variable would be to give them Jump-like charge times.  Which I think is doable with a little hacking.  However, because it isn't a set number, the game cannot calculate when the action will land until it's been confirmed.  And doing the math yourself on whether or not your mage is safe to a cast a spell is a total and complete pain, and one that we cannot avoid if we make charge time based on Speed (or level).
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 11, 2009, 08:10:43 pm #8 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
I generally like these, however, a few nitpicky things and a couple suggestions:

1.  I don't see a correlation between being able to equip a gun and a robe, logically.  Play-wise, I'm sure this idea is done because it allows Elemental Gun X + Black Robe, but it makes no logical sense in terms of the ability "Equip Gun".  Also, unless you're heavily nerfing the range on guns (which, since they're technically pistols iirc, kinda makes sense...), I would think a single ability that allows any class to equip both a magic gun and a Black Robe would be rather OP.

2.  I thought stacking Weapon Guard and another reaction always caused Weapon Guard to override the other reaction command?  Or was that fixed?  Also, wouldn't Weapon Guard + Abandon on the same unit end up being stupid?  It makes sense to do the change logically, but I think it'd require either making a lot of evade percents ridiculously low (something I wouldn't like) and/or removing Abandon to not make the game too luck based for non-Concentrating physical hitters.  Unless I'm totally missing something here.

3.  Jump.  Could you make its base damage 3/2 then make it 4/2 for anything equipping a Spear?  Or would that be too OP?  I think Jump needs a buff for non-Spear users, but Spear users should *still* get an added bonus of some kind... else Lancer as a class loses a fair bit of value, as does Equip Spear.

4.  Give Sages Short Charge.  Keep Two Swords and Two Hands on the respective physical classes.  Combos with Attack UP are kinda beastly, but with far less move, getting in and making them happen is less likely.  Are you nerfing the range of magic to ~3 squares as well?

5.  Keep Teleport.  Maybe increase the failure rate per panel to 20 or 25%.  Give Fly an added Move +1 bonus or something to make it so Teleport isn't 100% better than it.

6.  Remove permanent Br/Fa modification, but keep current abilities for Cheer Up / etc.  This means the player doesn't end up with worthless units should something like Terror (iirc?) get cast on them.  It also stops a max Br Gariland unit from ending up with ridiculous Brave compared to units the player gets later.

7.  Is there a reason Knight Swords are allowed to become straight PA*WP but Katanas aren't?  I've always wondered this.  (I'm in favor of making Katanas follow Knight Swords so that they're better physical weapons instead of solely being used for Draw Outs, obviously).  In an odd note, I almost want to say Samurai should be allowed to use Long Bows since (again, iirc) they use them historically, but that'd probably devalue the Archer too much.

8.  Global Class Evasion doesn't sit well with me.  I don't see why a Wizard and a Ninja should be equally skilled at dodging a frontal assault when logically the Ninja is obviously going to be better at it.  Unless this was only going to be done because of the innate Weapon Guard thing... but that already has some issues unless I'm missing something.  If I've missed something or am wrong about the Weapon Guard thing, I will say I am in favor of maybe lowering some of the Class Evasions or making them all based on 2-4 baseline numbers, but I think one straight number isn't right, as it weakens the classes that actually need it while not doing as much to the classes that really only used it to dodge long bow rounds anyway.

philsov

October 11, 2009, 08:27:22 pm #9 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
Great posts, keep em up :)

1) Obviously the name of the ability is going to be changed into something more fitting.  Guns are staying at 8 range.  But elemental guns + 108 gems is possible for anything anyways.  But a support than enables robe equipment?  Why not?

2) No, weapon guard doesn't override the equipped reaction.  The priest in the 4th video uses both weapon guard and auto-potion.  And, yes, weapon evasion numbers will be reworked, along with shields/mantles to prevent all this from becoming absurd.

3) I think 2x on spear jumps is OP, but spears/lancers need a review anyways.  Maybe +PA to spears...

4) yes, most magic is getting down to 3 range.  Only exceptions (iirc) are holy and flare.  Some of the defensive spells like protect and haste that used to be 3 range are now 2.

5) If you know how to alter teleport, you're welcome to show me how >_<.

6) Terror got erased from the game already, but keeping the old skills just means that the events at Mandalia/Zeakden/Zaland have no effect on Br values...

7) Knight swords are forced 2H and do not receive the 2H bonus.  Katana is br-based but also is boosted by 2H.  The perk of knight swords is their status and synergy with special characters, not direct damage.  As for bows, nah, devalues the archer too much.  But, longbows are getting equippable via support, so if you're going for RP that's still possible :p

8) Under the current numbers, a ninja has 30% class evasion while a wizard has 5%.  Global class evasion means that class evasion also occurs on all sides with diminished results -- 50% effectiveness on sides and 25% effectiveness on the back.  Wizards thus gain 1-2% evasion on back attacks while ninjas get 7-8%.  This is of course current numbers, these too are getting adjusted to prevent stupidness.  But if nothing else this is a welcome change for monsters, imo.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 09:03:02 pm #10 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Sephirot24
QuoteGreat posts, keep em up :(

@ Short Charge for Sages: yay! Raven agrees too, see? ^^

RavenOfRazgriz

October 11, 2009, 10:03:07 pm #11 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "philsov"Great posts, keep em up :)

Alright.

I'm gonna make some suggestions that'll sound silly going top down, and I don't feel like reworking it, so I'm going to state here I honestly think Abandon should simply be removed from the game with these kinds of changes (both yours and some I'm about to suggest).  Besides, being nigh-unhittable by anything that doesn't ignore evasion seems silly.

Only thing sillier is Hamedo, which allows you to abuse AI glitches and probably could get its own argument for becoming a boss-only ability a-la Blade Grasp.

So, that said, let's move on.

Quote from: "philsov"1) Obviously the name of the ability is going to be changed into something more fitting.  Guns are staying at 8 range.  But elemental guns + 108 gems is possible for anything anyways.  But a support than enables robe equipment?  Why not?

Giving up an accessory slot seems more detrimental than an armor slot for something that's fighting at 8 panels away when nothing moves more than 3 panels at a time (a reason I think guns would need a range nerf in this version, how the hell are you going to reach a gunner... and how the hell are they shooting you across the map with a pistol?!).

As for an "Equip Robe", I've an interesting solution for it that would also fix something that's bugged me since the dawn of FFT.  

Make every class in the game able to equip a Shield, and make Equip Shield into Equip Robe.  I've never understood why, say, a Wizard can't use a shield... pretty much every other FF game that has a Shield slot allows Wizards to use Shields, so why not in FFT?  Without Abandon, and the reworked numbers from innate Weapon Guard on all, I don't think this would really be broken without some shield that's broken in and of itself (say, Escutcheon II, though that has good reason to be broke).  Plus, I think this would fit quite nicely in with how you describe Global Class Evasion below.

It'd allow far more interesting setups with the elemental shields, Aegis Shield would become better (though I think it already has in this version), and you'd have your Equip Robe while also making the game make more sense and being a bit more in line with... just about every other previous FF game.  

I think that'd be the most sensible, since Equip Gun gets a whole lot better under these rules anyway (especially if you're keeping Guns with 8 range). Speaking of, if you do this, I would force Guns to become Two Hands only, if possible, so they aren't sniping from miles away while benefiting from Shield evasion.   Or something.

I had this idea thought out far better two hours ago when I had no opportunity to post it.

Quote from: "philsov"2) No, weapon guard doesn't override the equipped reaction.  The priest in the 4th video uses both weapon guard and auto-potion.  And, yes, weapon evasion numbers will be reworked, along with shields/mantles to prevent all this from becoming absurd.

Ah.

Alright then.  I didn't have time to watch the videos before posting, and still kinda don't.  I'll need to look them over later tonight.

Quote from: "philsov"3) I think 2x on spear jumps is OP, but spears/lancers need a review anyways.  Maybe +PA to spears...

Lancers in 1.3 are incredibly useful once they get Two Hands, imo.  Mained one the entire game and didn't regret it for a minute.  It just seems wrong for them to not be the best with their own skillset.  Many classes were rebalanced in 1.3 to work well with their main skillset (see: Samurai), so making all Jumps equal seems like a step backwards.

Quote from: "philsov"4) yes, most magic is getting down to 3 range.  Only exceptions (iirc) are holy and flare.  Some of the defensive spells like protect and haste that used to be 3 range are now 2.

I don't think the defensive Spells need a range nerf, myself.  Making all the "standard" magic 3 range seems fine, as it keeps the mage classes on equal footing.

Quote from: "philsov"5) If you know how to alter teleport, you're welcome to show me how >_<.

I don't, sorry.  >.<

Though I'd also have no idea how to make Ignore Height better to compete with Fly and Teleport, thinking on it, as they all serve the same role currently.

Quote from: "philsov"6) Terror got erased from the game already, but keeping the old skills just means that the events at Mandalia/Zeakden/Zaland have no effect on Br values...

I'd have no problems with those events not affecting Br regardless of the abilities being changed or not.

I know there are still a few abilities that modify Br left, but one of them's a Monster Skill and one's only on a single monster, so I think leaving it as 1.3 has it right now may be best in terms of Br modification and Cheer Up / etc.

Quote from: "philsov"7) Knight swords are forced 2H and do not receive the 2H bonus.  Katana is br-based but also is boosted by 2H.  The perk of knight swords is their status and synergy with special characters, not direct damage.  As for bows, nah, devalues the archer too much.  But, longbows are getting equippable via support, so if you're going for RP that's still possible :p

I say this because you wanted to remove innate Two Hands because of Two Hands + Attack UP, however the WP*PA*Br formula essentially (I say essentially as I haven't sat down and did the math out yet beyond figuring 70 Br is a 30% power reduction and Attack UP is a 33% PA boost) negates any bonus Attack UP would give without a monster Br stat and honestly makes Samurais better suited for using Equip Spear most of the time.  That honestly seems damn silly, especially since Samurais are a top-tier physical class.

Quote from: "philsov"8) Under the current numbers, a ninja has 30% class evasion while a wizard has 5%.  Global class evasion means that class evasion also occurs on all sides with diminished results -- 50% effectiveness on sides and 25% effectiveness on the back.  Wizards thus gain 1-2% evasion on back attacks while ninjas get 7-8%.  This is of course current numbers, these too are getting adjusted to prevent stupidness.  But if nothing else this is a welcome change for monsters, imo.

Ahhhhhh.

I misunderstood what you meant by "Global".  It sounds like you want to set all C-EVs to the same number the way it's worded in the OP.

This I like.  A global C-EV on all classes, I do not, which is what I originally thought you were going to do.

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 10:22:02 pm #12 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Sephirot24
@ Equip shield and mages: allowing wizards/mage classes the use of shields? The same way a ninja with 30% EV and a Wizard with only 5% makes sense, you'll have to admit that a shield is big and heavy, and not only needs strength but also dexterity (two stats which mages lack horribly). Even if you allowed them to use only early shields (example: up to mythril shields) I still don't agree with this one.

@ Guns: with the heavy move reduction and range nerfing on most abilities, guns will be kinda OP. Maybe making them range 6... because if I have a knight with 2 move and the enemy has a chemist with 2 move and a gun, I'll be chasing him for the whole battle, and even if I had 3 move he'd still get around 6 hits before I get to him. Dancers and Archers placed on high places will also be at a greater advantage than before...

@ Lancers and Jump: Lancers / Spear wielding units should still have a Jump boost. Would you say it's fair that a Geomancer or a Knight has the same jumping power as a Lancer? Makes them less useful/unique :(

RavenOfRazgriz

October 11, 2009, 10:34:14 pm #13 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "Sephirot24"@ Equip shield and mages: allowing wizards/mage classes the use of shields? The same way a ninja with 30% EV and a Wizard with only 5% makes sense, you'll have to admit that a shield is big and heavy, and not only needs strength but also dexterity (two stats which mages lack horribly). Even if you allowed them to use only early shields (example: up to mythril shields) I still don't agree with this one.

I would agree, but every other FF mage can use Shields in any game where shields are an equipment slot.

Are you telling me Ivalicians are just born with horrifically underdeveloped muscles compared to mages in other FF universes?

Precedent defeats an otherwise "logical" argument here, as FF flavor actually says a big "yes" to mages with shields.




@Philsov:  Also, quick thought.  Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the current move ranges (3-4), and take out Move +2 and Move +3, instead of reducing move and taking out Move +3?  With an average of 2 Move, Move +2 becomes the equivalent of Move +3 because it doubles a character's range.  Granted, the double is smaller, but every move space matters so much more when you get so many of them, meaning Move +2 would still outclass things.  Base 3 move with Move +1 available on Thieves would right this easily, as it's far easier to compete against Move +1 for a Movement Ability slot when every unit has ~3 Move than it is to compete with Move +2 when every unit only has ~2 Move.  The results are mostly the same, yet other Movement skills (such as Move-HP UP) actually *are* viable, instead of just looking better on paper.

Imo, anyway.

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 10:55:20 pm #14 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Sephirot24
Well... recently in 1.3 SQUIRES have been given the ability to equip shields... SQUIRES!!!

If you're giving mages the ability to equip shields, you have to give every other class the ability to do so. That + base move revamp + Global evasion + innate weapong guard = melee units missing 3/4 of their attacks because every damn unit has crazy evasion.

Also, nice thought about base move revamp. Removing move+2 and move+3 and leaving the other stuff as it is may also be useful... but let's see what Philsov thinks.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 11, 2009, 11:06:53 pm #15 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "Sephirot24"Well... recently in 1.3 SQUIRES have been given the ability to equip shields... SQUIRES!!!

If you're giving mages the ability to equip shields, you have to give every other class the ability to do so. That + base move revamp + Global evasion + innate weapong guard = melee units missing 3/4 of their attacks because every damn unit has crazy evasion.

Also, nice thought about base move revamp. Removing move+2 and move+3 and leaving the other stuff as it is may also be useful... but let's see what Philsov thinks.

Squires not being able to use Shields never made sense either.

I said EVERY class should be allowed to use a Shield.

Weapon Guard numbers are already getting fairly slashed because everything gets it innate.

Unless C-EVs are buffed a good deal, Global Evasion means that stat stacks on the evasion chain far less per attack, as a 20% C-EV only covers 10% of frontal hits, etc.  

Shields are getting their evasion rates cut due to innate Weapon Guard as well, Philsov said.  As are mantles.

So, shittier number + shittier number + shittier number + shittier number = not a godlike evasion stat.

Currently, Abandon + Elf Mantle probably generates more evasion in current 1.3 than a full stack of evasion equipment + Weapon Guard + C-EV would under philsov's setup due to all the slashed numbers.  I mean, just those two things, and you have 50% Physical Evasion and Magic Evasion!

Sephirot24

October 11, 2009, 11:18:06 pm #16 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Sephirot24
My concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

Also, I forgot to say that I totally agree with you about Hamedo being as broken (if not more in a lot of situations) as Blade Grasp.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 11, 2009, 11:29:55 pm #17 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "Sephirot24"My concern is that, if evasion is getting buffed, magic gets better because WG doesn't give M-ev and C-ev doesn't have M-ev either. And the only decent M-ev shield is Aegis, which you get later in the game.

He's making those numbers SMALLER, not LARGER.  Direct opposite of buffing.  More is stacking, but those numbers are on the whole smaller.  It just means everything can at least kind-of evade.

Magic is kind of why I want Shields on everything.

A physical class can throw on Concentrate if it really wants to and hit all the time, or pour on tons of power and swing two or three times to break evasion and oneshot the evading bastard.

Magic can't do either, but seems a lot better with highly slashed move stats.  Shields on everything means everything has the option to have some kind of M-EV without using a mantle.  Buff the M-EVs some (maybe, I don't know the exact M-EV values on Shields obviously), and lower P-EV to come in line with innate Weapon Guard and his new C-EV setup.  Tada!  Evadable magic.

Plus, it makes Shields a lot better by making them more widely available.  Equip Shield is hard to justify unless you're outright negating something with Ice Shield or Flame Shield oftentimes, and I actually found myself using a Two Hand only weapon or the ability Two Hands on anything that naturally equipped Shields in the original 1.3, unless using Maintenance, outright negating an element, or using lolbrokeAbandon.

Plus, if I'm remembering how evasion in FFT stacks properly, four mediocre numbers will generally be less evasion than Elf Mantle + Abandon.

Quote from: "Sephirot24"Also, I forgot to say that I totally agree with you about Hamedo being as broken (if not more in a lot of situations) as Blade Grasp.

I find Hamedo broke since it essentially gives free turns and allows exploitation of the AI, and I don't see AI exploitation as something the word "Tactics" should embody outside of a hardcore difficulty hack.

Blade Grasp and Abandon I find are broken for the exact same reasons, they allow monstrous evasion.  I'm surprised Abandon lasted this long, honestly, because it makes even a couple small evasion boosts pretty significant.  And again, high-tier Mantle + Abandon or high-tier Shield + Abandon equals essentially what Blade Grasp would be capable of in 1.3, except unable to block Jumps or Guns.



...This reminds me.

Philsov.  Is it possible to make Jump evadable when not using a Spear, but 100% accurate when you are?  That'd be perfect imo, giving Lancers the advantage of always hitting while making Jump more useful for other classes and making Equip Spear like a pseudo-Concentrate for Jump.

Asmo X

October 12, 2009, 12:35:30 am #18 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Asmo X
People act like Lancers would automatically be shit because they can only jump as hard as everyone else. Doesn't a spear having 2 range seem like a pretty big advantage under this new setup?

Also, the value of lowering movement is an absolute measurement. It was shit before because any unit could reach almost any other unit and positioning meant nothing. With this setup you avoid that even though move+2 supposedly becomes the new Move+3.

I agree with basically all of the proposed hacks. In fact I told Arch he should have included many of them in the original 1.3 if his goal was to keep the game true to the original. Oracle could get Drain back since its damage is capped at 250 or something.

The brave/faith thing is something I could go either way on. I don't like that there are attacks that factor in brave. I don't like it that you get nothing worthwhile from having low brave. The whole Brave/Faith system is really fucking stupid if you ask me. I don't like the Zodiac system either. On the other hand, one of the worst things about those mediator skills is that they raised the stats permanently and now that's gone. So if you want the goal of staying true to the original game, now would be the time to stick those skills back in without it being ridiculous.

The potion hack is something Arch and I discussed before and it might not work. Sephirot suggests 80-85% for X-potion. He must have been fucking high as a kite when he wrote that. It's almost HP restore every time your reaction goes off. 50% would be too high. The problem is that you only get a decent spread for all 3 potions when x-potion is brokenly powerful. If you make the % low you are faced with cramming 2 other potion levels below. If they are all close to one another it's meaningless. If they aren't then your lowest potion is going to do some negligible amount of healing. If you want %-based healing from potions, you only need one potion. It will scale with your HP anyway so why do we need more than 1?

Asmo X

October 12, 2009, 01:11:52 am #19 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Asmo X
Quote from: "philsov"possibly making Two Swords and Two hands no longer innate to samu/ninja.  

Yes please.

Edit: It's a shame we can't just have set speed for all characters for the whole game. That way magic would have some constistency.