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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Malroth

Berserk really needs an overhaul,  We can't give it a CT that wears off and on mages it pretty much is a 100% instant nonrevivable death. My fix would be to have it curable by all the things that cure Charm and adjust the equipment that gives it on purpose to have ALWAYS instead of INITIAL berserk

JamesOnyx

I've been coming in here every now and then, usually a couple times a month and haven't really been seeing too much activity concerning 1.39 since I was last here.  Is the proposal summary posted last year still basically what we're looking at or are the changes discussed semi recently in this thread looking to be implemented?

And I agree with Malroth for the most part on adjusting Berserk, but any Mage should probably be wearing equipment to protect themselves from it in the first place.  Or at least have an item bot that resists it to heal them if needed.  Mages (besides Priests) seem to have the hardest time in 1.38 though so perhaps some general adjusting is in order.

The Damned

August 21, 2014, 12:18:42 pm #1502 Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:32:57 pm by The Damned
("Raise from your grave.")

...And give me (and Gaignun) something to do as we wait for FFMaster to (maybe) come back and for Round 2 of Losers in the current tournament to begin. (Something to do apparently includes having to type all this again. Sigh, I loathe Chrome, even if it's partly this desktop's fault.)

I "need" to catch up on what happened in this thread while I was away anyway though, especially since I know that I promised something I probably didn't get around to before my sudden leave.

Regardless, I was in the middle of working on something  just now and it occurred to me to ask what people thought about a "solution" I had to Cloths given they're arguably the most uncertain weapon group at present outside of Staves and maybe Spears:


Persia: WP: 8; W-EV%: 40; Range: 2; Element: None; +2 Speed; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Protect; 2H: No; 2S: No.]

Cashmere: WP: 10; W-EV%: 25; Range: 2; Initial: Float & Reraise; Element: None; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Shell; 2H: No; 2S: No.]

Ryozan Silk: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Reflect; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: The exact same.]


I think the changes to Persia and Cashmere would still be quite useful to Dancers without having to step on the toes of two Knight Swords, two Perfumes and most other equipment by becoming Always: Protect and Always: Shell respectively like some people were suggesting. Additionally, this would have the benefit of saving two  of the currently all-used-up Item Attribute spaces since after Save the Queen and Ragnarok go back to being Always: Protect and Always: Shell respectively--provided we're still doing that--nothing needs Initial: Protect or Initial: Shell.

Of course, in sharing so, Persia somewhat steps on the toes of Javelin (I) and Cashmere somewhat steps on the toes of Diamond Helmet, but I see no harm in somewhat buffing either of those items either, especially if people thought it so necessary. This even if Dancer can use neither Javelin (I) nor Diamond Helmet naturally and no one else can currently use Cloths at all; incidentally, the above changes makes me way more comfortable with Cloths maybe becoming part of Equip Polearm(s).

Anyway, I highly doubt that Javelin (I) would suddenly become overpowered with a weapon power improved by a point or two, even if it might have to lose its Two Hands compatibility. That would hardly be a loss since no one is using on Two Hands their Javelin-wielding Item-bot Lancers anyway and Javelin is rarely, if ever, used on any other type of unit. Similarly, I highly doubt that Diamond Helmet, which barely sees any use as it is, would suddenly become overpowering if it got a slight buff to its HP or maybe even (also) got a slight bit of MP.

Shrug.


****

Quote from: Malroth on June 05, 2014, 06:26:20 pm
Berserk really needs an overhaul,  We can't give it a CT that wears off and on mages it pretty much is a 100% instant nonrevivable death. My fix would be to have it curable by all the things that cure Charm and adjust the equipment that gives it on purpose to have ALWAYS instead of INITIAL berserk


I still don't see why we can't just use the CT clock that Reflect is no longer using, partly because no one who knows how to code has ever answered that. Reflect in ARENA currently has a CT of 0 now and so is effectively "infinite", at least for 255 CTs, and is thus literally not using its CT clock anymore. In fact, in thinking about this now, giving its clock space to Berserk would probably "fix" that by having Reflect become actually infinite like how Blind and Silence currently (unfortunately) are. I'm not sure how difficult it might actually be given I'm still utterly ignorant of and rubbish at understanding anything coding related, but it seems like a valid solution.

Of course, I'm not going to order anyone to do that, including FFMaster. Still, it seems like the best solution given how problematic current infinite-until-death Berserk

Regardless, I also agree that Salty Rage (and Genji Helmet I guess) should go back to Always: Berserk as well as also getting Immune: Blind, even as obnoxious as that might be with Concentrate back (or Stone Gun). That's not really surprising since I suggested the same thing already about a year ago myself, given that I felt the few people who wanted to use Salty Rage (or Genji Helmet) didn't deserve to be further disadvantaged by not having access to Berserk-healing just because their team might misuse it and negate the items in question.


Quote from: JamesOnyx on June 23, 2014, 11:46:37 pm
And I agree with Malroth for the most part on adjusting Berserk, but any Mage should probably be wearing equipment to protect themselves from it in the first place.  Or at least have an item bot that resists it to heal them if needed.  Mages (besides Priests) seem to have the hardest time in 1.38 though so perhaps some general adjusting is in order.


That said, I also agree with this in that, for the most part, Mages generally have good enough ways to get around Berserk, if only because the current version of Defense Ring is really, really good. Given that's only getting slightly nerfed and the Immune: Berserk isn't changing there...yeah. And say that as someone who once got (hilariously) Berserked in ARENA while wielding a Healing Staff.

Not I would mind a new Robe Clothing or a new Hat that blocked Berserk given all the equipment space that currently sits unused in ARENA, but that's as far as I think it would need to go in combating Berserk specifically for mages. Esuna & Stigma Magic are already kind of obnoxiously buff and making them even stronger doesn't seem like a good thing, at least to me.

Besides, I'd readily argue that current Poison status is way more detrimental to mages than current Berserk status is. Most of the skill sets that can do anything about Poison instantly--particularly Basic Skill, Item,  Punch Art and technically Chivalry if you've no Light Robe or P Bag--aren't skill sets that mages ever tend to use as Secondaries. The only common skill set for mages that instantly takes care of Poison is Draw Out, which really doesn't need to get any stronger. If anything, it probably needs a bit of a nerf, if only to  Murasame and/or Masamune.

(Similarly, this is why Light Robe kinda sucks on actual mages currently besides their squishiness: get Poisoned with that thing on and you stay Poisoned unless you have something that specifically cancels Poison and doesn't just add Regen. Notice how this thus eliminates Draw Out or at least Masamune as an option for mages.)

This is why I still inwardly grumble a bit about the "fixes" to White Magic's Cure spells that Gaignun provided. I still agree with them, but making the already strong White Magic, arguably one of the strongest and certainly among the most used skill sets, even stronger and more necessary for support just rubs me the wrong way. This even if Holy is finally seeing a bit of a necessary nerf in at least a couple of areas.

Of course, aside from the re-shortened CT that Poison is probably getting going into 1.39 ARENA, if that ever is, there aren't really many obvious, feasible solutions. Sure, the most obvious one would be to make it so that Poison and Regen go back to not lasting after death, but I'm...surprisingly ambivalent about that currently. The only other feasible solutions I can see would be to increase the number of equipment (accessible by mages) that blocks Poison or buff the pieces of equipment (accessible by mages) that do so or some combination thereof, as is happening with the suggested change for Defense Armlet; I'm fine with it becoming Immune: Poison, but I personally think Immune: Blind should be Immune: Oil for a couple of reasons.

Well, that or give one of the other support mage classes, likely Time Mage or Oracle, either some way of  anti-Poison technique or outright giving them Regen--probably Time Mage--since most White Mages don't use that anyway.

Shrug again, especially since 108 Gems is pretty good, at least for Summoner and Wizard.

TL; DR: Point stands that while current Berserk is really obnoxious, there's no reason to buff Esuna and Stigma Magic even more because of it, especially when it can probably be "easily" made finite by giving it Reflect's no-longer-used CT clock. That said, besides making a new Robe and/or Hat that blocks Berserk, we could maybe give cancel Berserk to that random "Misogi" ability Ninja is apparently (maybe) getting and then maybe give that to Thief instead since Ninja is "stealing" Heretic anyway and Thief currently isn't guaranteed to get anything to compensate. Moving "Misogi" to Thief if it cancels Berserk has the added benefit giving mages access to something that can instantly cancel Poison as well in a skill set they can actually use (unlike Ninjutsu), even if "Misogi" probably heals a few too many status currently and even if it would be need to changed to not only self-targeting.

Shrug again again.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

The Damned

(I dislike technically double posting, but, of course, both Malroth and Gaignun seem to have promptly disappeared as soon as I put that last post up. At least JamesOnyx was only ever sporadically around to begin with since he's still kinda new.)

So, in continuing with what I was talking about in the last post and in remembering that, no, normally there aren't that many Robe spaces despite what I've done with other patches, I've of course been thinking about this more. With regards to the above, I've been thinking about that piece of Immune: Berserk equipment. "We" could easily get away with making an Immune: Berserk Hat given there's a bunch of Hat space still and it wouldn't take up another Item Attribute space since Wizard Mantle is currently Immune: Berserk and nothing else. Making said piece of equipment a Hat would be far better than making it a piece of Clothing in my opinion, if primarily for the sake of mages. They have more to fear from Berserk by design than other classes do, even with potential change of Scholar into the more close-combat-suited Druid.

At present, as I said above, even among just the vaguely agreed upon proposals, I think that ARENA would be going over the actually available Item Attribute space by about three entries. This even though there's still a moderately large amount of unused equipment space, at least in the shield and armor section, and even though we never agreed on what Crystal Shield "should" be:


CURRENTLY UNUSED EQUIPMENT SPACE IN ARENA
1. 1 Knife/Dagger space unused (Zorlin Shape)

2. 2 Staff spaces unused (Oak Staff, Sage Staff)

3. 2 Longbow spaces unused (Yoichi Bow, Perseus Bow)

4. 1 Spear space unused (Javelin [II])

5. 3 Pole/Stick spaces unused (Cypress Pole, Battle Bamboo, Musk Pole)

6. All 3 Shuriken spaces unused

7. All 3 Ball/Bomb spaces unused

8. 4 Shield spaces unused (Escutcheon [regular], Buckler, Bronze Shield, Round Shield)

9. 3 Helm(et) spaces unused (Leather Helm[et], Bronze Helm[et], Iron Helm[et])

10. 5 Hat spaces unused (Leather Hat, Feather Hat, Red Hood, Headgear, Triangle Hat)

11. 6 Heavy Armor spaces unused (Leather Armor, Linen Cuirass, Brozen Bronze Armor, Chain Mail, Mythril Armor, Plate Mail)

12. 6 Clothing spaces unused (Clothes, Leather Outfit, Leather Vest, Chain Vest, Mythril Vest, Adaman Vest)


All Accessory spaces are (obviously) used and, as I corrected above, so are all Robe spaces. I guess you could count Elixir's space as unused and argue it could be made into something else, but meh. To me, Chemist is already on the verge of healing too many statuses, especially with both Confusion and Blood Suck (and Chicken, technically) being gone by necessity and it affecting most other negative status. (To those whom it isn't clear, Potion is still in use, but only for use in Auto-Potion.)

Regardless, as it stands now, only Heavy Armor and Clothing have more unused spaces than Hats, so I figure  that using at least two Hat spaces could have a significant benefit to the next version of ARENA. Why two of them? It's simple: one to make into an  anti-Berserk Hat and one to help split up Thief Hat without wasting more Item Attribute space that doesn't exist by just awkwardly cutting and pasting Halve: Water onto Green Beret from said Thief Hat:


PROPOSALS FOR NEW HATS
(Uses Gaignun's Color Coding - Navy = Neutral, Green = Buff, Maroon = Nerf, Red = Disputed/New Changes)

1. (NEW!) Headgear: +70 HP; +0 MP; Immune: Berserk.

2. (NEW!) Triangle Hat: +60 HP, +20 MP; Halve: Wind, Earth & Water.

3. Green Beret: +80 HP; +35 MP; +1 Move, 1 Jump.

4. Black Hood: +110 HP; +50 MP.

5. Golden Hairpin: +70 HP; +50 MP; Strengthen: Holy & Dark. (+1 MA removed.)

6. Flash Hat: +80 HP; +35 MP; Initial: Innocent.

7. Thief Hat: +70 HP; +0 MP; +1 Speed. (Halve: Wind, Earth & Water removed; given to Triangle Hat.)


I never agreed with that initial Green Beret change of +1 Move, +1 Jump, Halve: Water, even though I agreed that Thief Hat needs a nerf. So this is obviously fine with me, especially given Thief Hat ends up nerfed more. I'm tempted to say that the now-nerfed Thief Hat should be 80 HP, but between my not agreeing that Twist Headband & Holy Miter should get 10 more HP, Speed being irksomely all-important in FFT and all the Speed getting into the next version of ARENA even with Quickening finally being destroyed--finally--and Cursed Ring losing its Speed point, I think it's probably fine at 70 HP.

Feel free to disagree though. (Hint hint.)

Regardless, that allows for two--technically three--new Hats without using up any Item Attributes, which also seems like a good thing. This especially when the alternative would have been to use one more Item Attribute in awkwardly buffing Green Beret, which you could just do through HP or MP or, hell, increasing Jump +1 to Jump +2 even if that would also affect Tactician's Blade.

...Of course, we could always scavenge at least one more Item Attribute space by finally taking Always: Transparent off the obnoxious weapon that is Hidden Knife.... I'll leave talking about that for next time though since, as always, I've already typed far more than enough.

P.S. We can probably forego giving Thief any curative abilities even if it's outright losing two abilities. Maybe people will actually use Ruin skills now (that they have to).
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

silentkaster

Well, I disagree in part on the triangle hat receiving halving of those elements. I think that most people likely choose Thief Hat due to the +1 Speed, not the elemental halving. Due to that, I don't think many teams would use a hat that gives lower HP and halves those particular elements. The spells and abilities that use those elements aren't that popular or plentiful. If anything, I would add 20 HP and swap the White Robe/Triangle Hat elements (possibly with immunity to Berserk or Poison added to the White Robe). This would make them both viable choices since the Triangle Hat would half the spell gun damage (and be more accessible to more classes) while the Robe would give a good immunity and half three elements that aren't widely used. I realize Earth is a bit more used than Water and Wind, but Earth also has Float that can null that element.

That's just my opinion though.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

FFMaster

139 will be ready to be released soon, hopefully by the end of the week if there are no problems. Here is what has been changed:

Changelog (139)

EQUIPMENT

Knives
- Dual Cutters WP increased to 8
- Mage Masher proc rate reduced to 25%
- Air Knife WP decreased to 12, now properly adds sleep
- Orichalcum, Katar and Air Knife all lose 2H

Ninja Swords
- Hidden Knife WP increased to 10, W-EV reduced to 0 and loses 1 speed
- Short Edge Oil proc chance increased to 100%
- Ninja Edge WP reduced to 10, W-EV increased to 10, proc chance increased to 50%
- Spell Edge loses 1 MA, proc changed to 100% Add: Faith

Swords, not words!
- Phoenix Blade remade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, -1 Speed, Fire Element, Initial: Reraise, No 2S/2H
STILL NEED TO DO -1 SPEED
- Tactician's Blade W-EV increased to 20
- Parry Edge replaced with Mystic Blade: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 1 PA, 1 MA, 2H
- Coral Sword WP increased to 11, loses proc, no longer 2H/2S
- Shieldrender WP reduced to 7
- Lionheart W-EV increased to 10

K"night" Swords
- Defender WP increased to 16
- Save the Queen WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Protect changed to Always: Protect
- Excalibur WP increased to 14
- Ragnarok WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Shell changed to Always: Shell

Katanas
- Muramasa gains 1 MA, proc changed to 50% Cast: Spell Absorb
- Masamune now has -2 Speed, Initial:Haste changed to Always: Haste, loses proc
- Chirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Axes
- Slasher is now 2-swordable, W-EV reduced to 20

Rods
- Thunder Rod WP increased to 6
- Ice Rod WP increased to 7

Staves
- White Staff WP increased to 8, gains Holy Element
- Healing Staff gains 1 Speed
- Rainbow Staff WP increased to 12, gains Immune: Oil
- Wizard Staff WP increased to 9
- Gold Staff W-EV increased to 20

Guns
- Stone Gun, Blaze Gun, Blast Gun and Glacier Gun are now 4 range, forced 2H

Crossbows
- Silencer WP increased to 12

Bows
- Long Bow gains 1 Move, range increased to 7, WP reduced to 12
- Silver Bow gains 1 MA, range increased to 6
- Ice Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Lightning Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Windslash Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Mythril Bow replaced with Athiest Bow: 15 WP, 4 range, 100% Add: Innocent
- Ultimus Bow WP reduced to 14

Harps
- Ramia Harp gains 2 MA, loses proc

Shields
- Diamond Shield now has Absorb: Dark, Weak: Holy
- Platina Shield now has Absorb: Holy, Weak: Dark
- Crystal Shield gains Immune: Oil, P-EV increased to 30, M-EV reduced to 5
- Kaiser Plate now has Strengthen: Wind, Ice, Dark

Helmets
- Mythril Helm loses Immune: Stop, gains Immune: Faith, Innocent
- Cross Helm HP increased to 120, MP increased to 50
- Platina Helm loses Immune: Slow, gains Immune: Stop
- Grand Helm HP increased to 150

Hats
- Twist Headband HP increased to 70
- Holy Miter HP increased to 70
- Black Hood MP increased to 30
- Golden Hairpin loses 1 MA
- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water
- Thief Hat loses Half: Earth, Wind, Water

Headbands
- Choice Band remade: 60 HP, Initial: Haste, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence

Armor
- Genji Armor remade: 80 HP, 1 Speed
- Maximillian HP increased to 160

Clothes
- Brigandine HP increased to 130
- Santa Outfit MP increased to 10
- Earth Clothes MP increased to 20
- Secret Clothes HP increased to 70
- Black Costume MP increased to 10
- Rubber Costume MP increased to 10

Robes
- Silk Robe MP increased to 40

Accessories
- Sprint Shoes gains Immune: Slow
- Power Wrist P-EV increased to 30
- Genji Gauntlet M-EV increased to 30
- Defense Ring is now Immune: Silence, Berserk, Sleep, Absorb: Wind, Lightning
- Magic Ring loses Absorb: Wind, gains Absorb: Earth
- Jade Armlet is now Absorb: Ice, Water, Immune: Stop, Petrify, Frog
- 108 Gems loses all immunities
- Defense Armlet is now 1 PA, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act
- Salty Rage changed to Always: Berserk

CLASSES

Squire
- Alacrity receives an animation
- Heal now removes Oil
- Yell CT reduced to 0
- Wish range increased to 3

Chemist
- X Potion HP heal increased to 130
- Auto Potion HP heal reduced to 70

Paladin
- Reraise range reduced to 3, CT increased to 1, MP reduced to 12
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 350
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 250
- Paladin loses Move-1

Archer
- Leg Aim JP reduced to 100
- Arm Aim JP reduced to 150
- Hawk's Eye MP increased to 12, CT reduced to 1
- Cover Fire formula changed to Random(2...4)*(PA+30)~~~~~NEED TO DO ASM FOR RNG
- Execute JP reduced to 100

Monk
- Wave Fist is now Wind Elemental
- Stigma Magic JP increased to 150
- Revive JP decreased to 250

Priest
- Cure JP increased to 100, CT reduced to 0, MP increased to 10
- Cure 3 Y increased to 15
- Cure 4 Y reduced to 16, CT reduced to 3, MP reduced to 16
- Regen Y increased to 100
- Protect vert increased to 1
- Shell vert increased to 1
- Wall CT reduced to 0

Wizard
- Fire proc chance increased to 50%
- Death range increased to 6, CT reduced to 6
- Flare MP reduced to 40

Time Mage
- Haste X increased to 70
- Haste 2 JP reduced to 250
- Slow X increased to 70
- Slow 2 JP reduced to 250
- Stop CT reduced to 4, MP increased to 20, X increased to 70, JP reduced to 200
- Comet JP reduced to 100, CT reduced to 1, MP increased to 10
- Sinkhole JP reduced to 150
- Demi AoE increased to 2, X reduced to 80
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 200

Summoner
- Moogle AoE increased to 3
- Salamander proc chance increased to 50%
- Bahamut CT reduced to 6

Thief
- Bad Luck changed to 100% Random Add: Oil, Stop, Blind, Silence
- Quickening JP increased to 300
- Speed Ruin X increased to 100

Mediator
- Persuade replaced with Stall: MA+45% chance to add Stop, 300 JP
- Preach X increased to 75
- Solution X increased to 60
- Refute no longer cancels Charging and Performing
- Mediator gains Move-1

Oracle
- Dispel Magic AoE increased to 1
- Paralyze JP increased to 150

Geomancer
- Counter Flood JP reduced to 200

Lancer
- Ignore Height JP reduced to 150

Samurai
- Bizen Boat now affected by M-EV

Ninja
- Tsumazuku is now 100% Cancel: Reraise
- Houkouton damage changed to ((SP+PA)/2)*(WP+2), MP increased to 15

Bard
- Last Song X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100


Dancer
- Last Dance X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100

TODO
- Make a few more changes to Draw Out
- Adding new skills to Scholar
- Mime changes
- Change Stick formula to MAX[PA/MA]*WP
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Reks

Quote from: FFMaster on October 02, 2014, 06:53:20 am
139 will be ready to be released soon, hopefully by the end of the week if there are no problems. Here is what has been changed:

Changelog (139)

EQUIPMENT

Knives
- Dual Cutters WP increased to 8
- Mage Masher proc rate reduced to 25%
- Air Knife WP decreased to 12, now properly adds sleep
- Orichalcum, Katar and Air Knife all lose 2H

Ninja Swords
- Hidden Knife WP increased to 10, W-EV reduced to 0 and loses 1 speed
- Short Edge Oil proc chance increased to 100%
- Ninja Edge WP reduced to 10, W-EV increased to 10, proc chance increased to 50%
- Spell Edge loses 1 MA, proc changed to 100% Add: Faith

Swords, not words!
- Phoenix Blade remade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, -1 Speed, Fire Element, Initial: Reraise, No 2S/2H
STILL NEED TO DO -1 SPEED
- Tactician's Blade W-EV increased to 20
- Parry Edge replaced with Mystic Blade: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 1 PA, 1 MA, 2H
- Coral Sword WP increased to 11, loses proc, no longer 2H/2S
- Shieldrender WP reduced to 7
- Lionheart W-EV increased to 10

K"night" Swords
- Defender WP increased to 16
- Save the Queen WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Protect changed to Always: Protect
- Excalibur WP increased to 14
- Ragnarok WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Shell changed to Always: Shell

Katanas
- Muramasa gains 1 MA, proc changed to 50% Cast: Spell Absorb
- Masamune now has -2 Speed, Initial:Haste changed to Always: Haste, loses proc
- Chirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Axes
- Slasher is now 2-swordable, W-EV reduced to 20

Rods
- Thunder Rod WP increased to 6
- Ice Rod WP increased to 7

Staves
- White Staff WP increased to 8, gains Holy Element
- Healing Staff gains 1 Speed
- Rainbow Staff WP increased to 12, gains Immune: Oil
- Wizard Staff WP increased to 9
- Gold Staff W-EV increased to 20

Guns
- Stone Gun, Blaze Gun, Blast Gun and Glacier Gun are now 4 range, forced 2H

Crossbows
- Silencer WP increased to 12

Bows
- Long Bow gains 1 Move, range increased to 7, WP reduced to 12
- Silver Bow gains 1 MA, range increased to 6
- Ice Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Lightning Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Windslash Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Mythril Bow replaced with Athiest Bow: 15 WP, 4 range, 100% Add: Innocent
- Ultimus Bow WP reduced to 14

Harps
- Ramia Harp gains 2 MA, loses proc

Shields
- Diamond Shield now has Absorb: Dark, Weak: Holy
- Platina Shield now has Absorb: Holy, Weak: Dark
- Crystal Shield gains Immune: Oil, P-EV increased to 30, M-EV reduced to 5
- Kaiser Plate now has Strengthen: Wind, Ice, Dark

Helmets
- Mythril Helm loses Immune: Stop, gains Immune: Faith, Innocent
- Cross Helm HP increased to 120, MP increased to 50
- Platina Helm loses Immune: Slow, gains Immune: Stop
- Grand Helm HP increased to 150

Hats
- Twist Headband HP increased to 70
- Holy Miter HP increased to 70
- Black Hood MP increased to 30
- Golden Hairpin loses 1 MA
- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water
- Thief Hat loses Half: Earth, Wind, Water

Headbands
- Choice Band remade: 60 HP, Initial: Haste, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence

Armor
- Genji Armor remade: 80 HP, 1 Speed
- Maximillian HP increased to 160

Clothes
- Brigandine HP increased to 130
- Santa Outfit MP increased to 10
- Earth Clothes MP increased to 20
- Secret Clothes HP increased to 70
- Black Costume MP increased to 10
- Rubber Costume MP increased to 10

Robes
- Silk Robe MP increased to 40

Accessories
- Sprint Shoes gains Immune: Slow
- Power Wrist P-EV increased to 30
- Genji Gauntlet M-EV increased to 30
- Defense Ring is now Immune: Silence, Berserk, Sleep, Absorb: Wind, Lightning
- Magic Ring loses Absorb: Wind, gains Absorb: Earth
- Jade Armlet is now Absorb: Ice, Water, Immune: Stop, Petrify, Frog
- 108 Gems loses all immunities
- Defense Armlet is now 1 PA, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act
- Salty Rage changed to Always: Berserk

CLASSES

Squire
- Alacrity receives an animation
- Heal now removes Oil
- Yell CT reduced to 0
- Wish range increased to 3

Chemist
- X Potion HP heal increased to 130
- Auto Potion HP heal reduced to 70

Paladin
- Reraise range reduced to 3, CT increased to 1, MP reduced to 12
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 350
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 250
- Paladin loses Move-1

Archer
- Leg Aim JP reduced to 100
- Arm Aim JP reduced to 150
- Hawk's Eye MP increased to 12, CT reduced to 1
- Cover Fire formula changed to Random(2...4)*(PA+30)~~~~~NEED TO DO ASM FOR RNG
- Execute JP reduced to 100

Monk
- Wave Fist is now Wind Elemental
- Stigma Magic JP increased to 150
- Revive JP decreased to 250

Priest
- Cure JP increased to 100, CT reduced to 0, MP increased to 10
- Cure 3 Y increased to 15
- Cure 4 Y reduced to 16, CT reduced to 3, MP reduced to 16
- Regen Y increased to 100
- Protect vert increased to 1
- Shell vert increased to 1
- Wall CT reduced to 0

Wizard
- Fire proc chance increased to 50%
- Death range increased to 6, CT reduced to 6
- Flare MP reduced to 40

Time Mage
- Haste X increased to 70
- Haste 2 JP reduced to 250
- Slow X increased to 70
- Slow 2 JP reduced to 250
- Stop CT reduced to 4, MP increased to 20, X increased to 70, JP reduced to 200
- Comet JP reduced to 100, CT reduced to 1, MP increased to 10
- Sinkhole JP reduced to 150
- Demi AoE increased to 2, X reduced to 80
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 200

Summoner
- Moogle AoE increased to 3
- Salamander proc chance increased to 50%
- Bahamut CT reduced to 6

Thief
- Bad Luck changed to 100% Random Add: Oil, Stop, Blind, Silence
- Quickening JP increased to 300
- Speed Ruin X increased to 100

Mediator
- Persuade replaced with Stall: MA+45% chance to add Stop, 300 JP
- Preach X increased to 75
- Solution X increased to 60
- Refute no longer cancels Charging and Performing
- Mediator gains Move-1

Oracle
- Dispel Magic AoE increased to 1
- Paralyze JP increased to 150

Geomancer
- Counter Flood JP reduced to 200

Lancer
- Ignore Height JP reduced to 150

Samurai
- Bizen Boat now affected by M-EV

Ninja
- Tsumazuku is now 100% Cancel: Reraise
- Houkouton damage changed to ((SP+PA)/2)*(WP+2), MP increased to 15

Bard
- Last Song X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100


Dancer
- Last Dance X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100

TODO
- Make a few more changes to Draw Out
- Adding new skills to Scholar
- Mime changes
- Change Stick formula to MAX[PA/MA]*WP



This is the best news ever

Better yet, I love the changes. (though it's gonna force me to revise that new team of mine right away as I abused a few things :P)

Can't wait to see what you do with Scholars(Druids?).
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128


Barren

Quote from: Dokurider on October 02, 2014, 10:29:48 am
You forgot to mention what you're doing to Oil.


Is oil going back to only increasing fire damage?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Leif1991

Does the Flash Hat still cause an initial Innocent Status?
Season 3 A.I. Tournament Champion

Barren

I think that's what FFMaster meant in his spoiler. Its basically a thief hat replacement minus the +1 speed
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Leif1991

Quote from: Barren on October 02, 2014, 04:07:28 pm
I think that's what FFMaster meant in his spoiler. Its basically a thief hat replacement minus the +1 speed

Yeah he said:
"- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water", when I think he meant "Initial."
Well Undead Units aren't safe from Raise 2 Spells anymore.
Season 3 A.I. Tournament Champion

Barren

Not necessarily. You can still use Reflect Mail and Cursed Ring together
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

FFMaster

Yes, I meant Initial: Innocent

and yes, there's an important Oil change I forgot.
- Oil no longer adds weakness to the inflicted unit. It only removes resistances.
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

silentkaster

I'm excited for this new patch! Thanks FFMaster for doing this and see you all in the Arena soon!
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Otabo

October 03, 2014, 12:56:08 am #1515 Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 01:06:34 am by Otabo
1.39 is actually going to be a thing after all!? Excellent.

Knife changes: Well, RIP 2-H thieves. Good riddance, to be honest. So tired of 2-H Katar thieves.
Ninja Sword changes: Fine.
Swords changes: RIP Phoenix Blade. Though I can see that new Phoenix Blade being pretty OP on a Grand Cross unit. We'll see. I'm liking that Mystic Blade, too.
Knightsword changes: Love 'em. I can see right now that they're (and by they, I mean Ragnarok/Save The Queen) going to be used a LOT more now, especially for defensive teams. Good stuff.
Katana changes: Masamune looks...interesting now. -2 speed, but Always: Haste? Hmm, Chiri could be deadly with the right setup for it.
Axes: No comment.
Rods: No comment.
Staves: Healing Staff's +1 speed is interesting.
Guns: Losing both 1 range and 2-H is a well deserved nerf. I like. Spellgun damage isn't going to be as retarded as before at least, and that's good.
Crossbows: No comment.
Bows: I actually like the bow changes; Long Bow, even with the WP nerf still looks good. I can see 6, 7 or even 8 move Archers with this thing. I'm liking that Atheist Bow, too.
Harps: Ramia Harp is now just an alternative to Rune Blade for full MA bard setups or at least support bard setups. Interesting.
Shields: I was worried when I looked at Platina Shield because of Cursed Ring, but then I remembered that weak/absorb don't stack anymore. New Kaiser Plate is interesting, too.
Helmets: Hmm, I always thought it was dumb to have both Platina and Mythril Helmet block slow, so I can see the reasoning why Platina lost slow immunity. So, now it's Mythril that has slow, faith and innocent immunity and Platina that has stop, oil and poison? I can live with that. They both will still have their uses, I feel, so I think that was a good change for both of them. That Cross Helm buff looks pretty nice, too.
Hats: So Flash Hat is going to be the new Thief Hat it looks like. Only without +1 speed. Thief Hat probably gonna be garbage now, with it having the lowest HP (I'm assuming it's staying at 60?), especially since Black Hood got that 30 MP buff (which is GREAT, might I add), and Twist Headband getting a small HP buff. I dunno.
Headbands: Choice Band is useable now; initial Haste has always been pretty strong. But it being monk-only, I dunno. We'll have to see, I guess. Still no Chakra Band nerfs which makes me sad.
Armor: No comment.
Clothes: Solid buffs for all of them, which is nice.
Robes: No comment.
Accessories: Holy crap, that Jade Armlet buff. Probably gonna be seeing a lot more of that. Or not, seeing as Cursed Ring wasn't touched. Then again, Flash Hat losing Initial Innocent was basically an indirect nerf to Cursed Ring, which I'll gladly accept. Hell, ANY nerf to Cursed Ring, I'll accept at this moment. Defense Ring got small nerfs, but it still covers three big status immunities almost necessary for mages to have, so it's still a strong pick, IMO. Defense Armlet looks like it's meant for physical based units now - I can especially see this accessory being pretty good for ninjas, thieves, dancers, even damage monks. Good stuff. Slow immunity for Sprint Shoes seems nice as well.


CLASSES

Squires: Finally. Alacrity gets its own animation. Huzzah! Oh, and instant Yells? Yes, please, not like I use Yell all that much, but still a good buff, nonetheless. 3 range on Wish is something, I guess, but Wish is still a crappy skill.
Chemists: Auto Potion nerfs. Ouch. X-pot buffs, eh? Not bad.
Pallies: No more insta-Reraises. Now they're like almost insta-Reraises. And cheaper now, too. Could be a slight problem now that it's 12 MP, as with Robe of Lords + Move-MP Up, the unit could technically have infinite Reraises. But we'll see what happens with it.
Archers: Leg/Arm Aim buffs, nice. Hawk's Eye is now quicker, but more expensive to use. Good tradeoff. Shouldn't be much different than before, though it could get a bit crazy with those longbow buffs (if used with longbows, anyway).
Monks: I dunno how I feel about wind elemental Wave Fist, but other than that, no comment.
Priests: Cure and Wall buffs, always nice.
Wizzies: Range and CT buffs on Death is something. 6 CT still might be too long, but that's just me. Same with Flare; I feel that it still isn't going to be used that much - especially since Holy is still currently the way it is.
Time Mage: Oh. My. God. My prayers have been answered. These time Mage buffs were desperately needed. Stop is...actually really good now; 2 CT with short charge? Yes, please. Oh, thank you so much. This is probably one of the best parts of the patch update, IMO.
Summoners: Still don't like 'em personally, but these are some decent buffs for them, if I do say so myself. Still won't use one, though.
Thieves: Speed Ruin buffs!? With its X now 100, Speed Ruin is almost always going to hit now. Interesting. Might be worth using now, actually. As for Bad Luck, does it now proc only one status, or can it proc several statuses like it did before?
Mediators: RIP Persuade. You won't be missed, you piece of garbage. Refute no longer cancelling Charging/Performing was desperately needed. I literally never ran Refute because of how dumb the AI can be with it. Oh, and I see my Insult wasn't touched. Preach & Solution buffs, too. Groovy.
Oracles: Dispel gaining AoE is going to be quite huge, depending on the situation. A good buff for it.
Geomancers: No comment.
Lancers: No comment.
Samurai: Bizen Boat can be evaded now. About time.
Ninjas: I'm actually eager to see what this new Houkouton can do, damage wise. Interesting.
Bards/Dancers: Last Song/Last Dance buffs. Nice. Small buffs, but they're buffs, nonetheless.


Also, can't wait to see what the new Scholar is going to be like, and what they're capable of.

Dokurider

QuoteChirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

I think that Chiri should have 1 Move instead of 1 Speed because it would be nice to have a Katana that Samurai actually use to hit things with. Then again Berserk.

QuoteAccessories: Holy crap, that Jade Armlet buff. Probably gonna be seeing a lot more of that. Or not, seeing as Cursed Ring wasn't touched. Then again, Flash Hat losing Initial Innocent was basically an indirect nerf to Cursed Ring, which I'll gladly accept. Hell, ANY nerf to Cursed Ring, I'll accept at this moment. Defense Ring got small nerfs, but it still covers three big status immunities almost necessary for mages to have, so it's still a strong pick, IMO. Defense Armlet looks like it's meant for physical based units now - I can especially see this accessory being pretty good for ninjas, thieves, dancers, even damage monks. Good stuff. Slow immunity for Sprint Shoes seems nice as well.


FFM also forgot to mention that Cursed Ring was to be nerf via system change:

Zombified Units that are Immune: Crystal now only have a 50% chance of revival when the death counter reaches 0. If the revival fails, the unit will have to wait an additional turn.

While I believe this is how the interaction used to work in Vanilla and it's current behavior is an ASM, it may end up being a TODO given it's an ASM.

There's actually a few systematic changes FFM forgot to document (and I hope he doesn't forget to do them!). The change I remember the most is flagging Tsumazuku for AI use.

EDIT:

QuoteUltima is to be moved to any other slot except it's current one to bypass current hardcoded AI issues.


^Important one. The reason why the AI is so derpy when it comes to casting Ultima (not giving a shit about being midcharged, not understanding that Ultima has MP cost, which is why it also works with Quickening, etc.) because it was deliberately made that way so that it was easier for Ramza to get hit by Ultima. Just any slot will do.

Idk if FFM's still going through with the Mime changes though.

QuoteSo Flash Hat is going to be the new Thief Hat it looks like. Only without +1 speed. Thief Hat probably gonna be garbage now, with it having the lowest HP (I'm assuming it's staying at 60?), especially since Black Hood got that 30 MP buff (which is GREAT, might I add), and Twist Headband getting a small HP buff. I dunno.


Thief Hat will be fine. People will always stack speed at any cost. It's usage may go down to about equal to Secret Clothes however.

Kinda sad that my suggestion to make Iron Fan Dark Elemental or any of the Spear changes didn't go through. We really need a non self strengthening Dark Weapon.

Reks

Quote from: Dokurider on October 03, 2014, 04:09:14 am
I think that Chiri should have 1 Move instead of 1 Speed because it would be nice to have a Katana that Samurai actually use to hit things with. Then again Berserk.

FFM also forgot to mention that Cursed Ring was to be nerf via system change:

Zombified Units that are Immune: Crystal now only have a 50% chance of revival when the death counter reaches 0. If the revival fails, the unit will have to wait an additional turn.

While I believe this is how the interaction used to work in Vanilla and it's current behavior is an ASM, it may end up being a TODO given it's an ASM.

There's actually a few systematic changes FFM forgot to document (and I hope he doesn't forget to do them!). The change I remember the most is flagging Tsumazuku for AI use.

EDIT:

^Important one. The reason why the AI is so derpy when it comes to casting Ultima (not giving a shit about being midcharged, not understanding that Ultima has MP cost, which is why it also works with Quickening, etc.) because it was deliberately made that way so that it was easier for Ramza to get hit by Ultima. Just any slot will do.

Idk if FFM's still going through with the Mime changes though.

Thief Hat will be fine. People will always stack speed at any cost. It's usage may go down to about equal to Secret Clothes however.

Kinda sad that my suggestion to make Iron Fan Dark Elemental or any of the Spear changes didn't go through. We really need a non self strengthening Dark Weapon.


Interesting. I didn't know that about Ultima.

As for a Dark weapon, I'd personally recommend a sword for it's purpose, as they can be used by many jobs. Or a dagger, but still, personal preference.

But I'm happy with how the changes are.

Phoenix Blade is more of a weapon now than a tool for immortality, though I suppose it wasn't broken before. Just annoying.

There's nothing that I'll really miss, as these changes are mostly geared towards making things usable alongside the already popular choices, and nothing (as far as I can tell) was really removed, just tweaked to make them more/less appealing and risky/rewarding to pick up.

I don't have many personal thoughts on this until I design a few teams, though. I'm not really one for theory :P
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

FFMaster

Yeah, I completely forgot about the Undead change. Thanks for reminding me. Saved me one b version lol.

Ultima fix has already been done, and isn't really worth documenting.

Tsumazuku fix hasn't been done, but I didn't think it was worthwhile to write a line about it.

As for Spears and Swords, I was planning to kill off the elemental spears specifically, since I always hated that they couldn't understand the proc element, and I had to make the base weapon that element. If time permits, I'll move a few sword effects to replace those 3 elemental spears, and add a Dark sword in there.
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Dokurider

Oh one more thing, hasn't Lancer getting Robes been a long standing request?