FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[The Damned]

spoiler: Archer skillset::xnv96igr

Camoflague - 100% self only inflict transparent (AI immune, damn you devs)
Execute - Inflicts death onto any unit with critical status, weapon range.
Ache - Sp + X% (low) chance to inflict charging onto a unit. ( )
Poison Volley - Because Wizards needed a new ability slot.  Sp+X (high) chance to work, 1 AoE.  
Aim - SP * WP damage, unevadeable.  Low CTR.
Heavy Arrow - PA * WP damage, 100% silence infliction.  Med charge time.  
Salve - Cancels Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison, Frog, Oil, Sleep.  Upon cleansing these, target is healed for 20% health.

Hey, philsov, I was wondering. With regards to Camouflage, is the computer not using it because you're not including the ASM that allows the AI to see Transparent units? And do you want it that way?

(Just asking because 100% Transparent without any catches or the computer being able to see Transparent people just seems kind of...questionable.)

Oh, and thanks for the skill set clarification.

[philsov]

That, and when he learns to use PPFStudio or whatever it is.  Heh.

Pretty much.  Can't ever seem to get it right.  Once I'm ready for ppf expect me to bump my old topic in Help with a new list of grievances against that monster.

Philsov, do you know how hard it is to implement the "Chocobo Knights" thing that Zodiac did a while back?

Um... link to Zodiac's stuff?  It's not a matter of easy entd input, I know that much.  But I might be able to piggyback.  

Regarding monsters in general fights, I am upping the monster ratio some.  I know I'm planning on flotiballs for the lionel ambush, for example .

is the computer not using it because you're not including the ASM that allows the AI to see Transparent units? And do you want it that way?

The computer isn't using it because its freaking dumb, and considers transparent as a positive status.  Hence, there are times when an enemy transparent unit would rather do nothing than attack, just to keep up the veil.  As for its ASM, that's another I left off the front page or deleted by accident.  That WILL be implemented, because transblocking is completely lame and cheesy.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Um... link to Zodiac's stuff?  It's not a matter of easy entd input, I know that much.  But I might be able to piggyback.  

Regarding monsters in general fights, I am upping the monster ratio some.  I know I'm planning on flotiballs for the lionel ambush, for example

[formerdeathcorps]

It seems fairly simple.  All it is a special set for ENTDs so it doesn't get mixed up for other units + units walking onto the chocobo's square via event script.  The only problem is that this will occur only in one battle or one map unless you specify that every map that uses chocobo riders has them at location X,Y (which is silly, I'd think).

[RavenOfRazgriz]

It seems fairly simple.  All it is a special set for ENTDs so it doesn't get mixed up for other units + units walking onto the chocobo's square via event script.  The only problem is that this will occur only in one battle or one map unless you specify that every map that uses chocobo riders has them at location X,Y (which is silly, I'd think).

Considering part of his note was "make sure you use different unit IDs for every random chocobo knights battle you create", I would imagine there's a feasible way to make it work on multiple maps.  While I don't event edit, I used to be a code junky for other things, and from what I gather here you implement every Chocobo Rider WalkTo event under that same offset, and give each one a unique Unit ID starting at x90, so that only units with the unique "Chocobo Knight" IDs appearing in that battle will execute the WalkTo and mount their ride, with all the others being skipped since their IDs aren't present in the battle.

That's what I'm getting from his post and what bits and pieces of FFT event editing I know, at least.

[The Damned]

I don't want to distract from the current discussion, but I did forget to ask something I had been meaning to about the Archer skill set because I am a scatterbrain.

The thing was I wondering, which anyone can answer, is about the SP * WP and PA * WP formulas. Are these exempt from that 999 weapon damage exploit with Guns/weapons that use the WP*WP formula?

[formerdeathcorps]

Those avoid it because they reference two different stats: SP and WP.  The whole reason why the Zodiac glitch even works is probably because the formula was probably updating WP in both instances of existence, scaling weapon damage quadratically.

Raven, point taken, though if you have a chocobo rider on every battlefield, you could quickly run out of unit IDs.

[Xifanie]

Ideally you don't touch 00-7F
and 80-8F are normally used for enemies
that leaves 90-FF; or 112 mounted chawcawbaws.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Raven, point taken, though if you have a chocobo rider on every battlefield, you could quickly run out of unit IDs.

There's no reason to have them on every battlefield, though, that'd ruin the point of the monster rider being an epic enemy.

It means they can be used in more than one instance easily though, since there's so much empty... everything in FFT.

Ideally you don't touch 00-7F
and 80-8F are normally used for enemies
that leaves 90-FF; or 112 mounted chawcawbaws.

More than enough.

Plus, if Philsov did what we were talking about a few pages back about switching around some monsters and using an ASM to make them mountable, they won't just be mounted chawcawbaws...  

[Dokurider]

Could we program Draw out to just inflict statuses? Like Break Item? Or would it be forced to be 100% and thus broken?

Also, would it be alright for the archer skillset to have the ability to cancel positive statuses? That would make Archers invaluable vs M-Barrier spam (see that one NOGIAS).

[Timbo]

Maybe its me but it seems like that with enough CT and MP cost almost nothing is broken.

[The Damned]

Draw Out can't take MP. (Neither can Geomancy.)

Also, people don't use Dispel as it is, Dokurider. Giving people even less reason to do so is...well, I shouldn't have to say.

Also there's not really anything that says philsov won't change up Deep Dungeon, especially since this isn't as based off of 1.3 as Easytype is.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Some thoughts I've been mulling over lately:  

First, Move-Find Item.

I don't know what you've done with it, but...

It needs to be 100%, especially without Fury implemented.  Even if you get a 40 Br dedicated MFI user, that's still resetting half the time if you walk onto a rare drop like a Vanish Mantle or Blood Sword and get the shit item instead.  I think we discussed that bit a long time ago, though.

Time to expand it, however.

The only "Item" command stuff that's MFIable, IMO, should be Elixirs, and ULTRA POTION / Hi-Ethers / other stuff earlier on when its still unbuyable, maybe Phoenix Downs really early on if you do what Eternal did and crank them to cost like 2000 gil.  In general, though, once it's in shops, it's not worth the MFI.  Equipment should likely be one or two tiers ahead of what's in shops when it's MFI'd for the same reason.  Rare, unpoachable MFIs like Blood Swords, etc. should only be on maps that can be accessed for random battles, because this both gives more incentive to explore the various random battles in the game and stop people from getting pissed about missing some random equipment because they were too busy trying to merely win a hard story fight and can't really go back once they've done it without resetting, since trying to MFI is like having a character with no Movement bonus.

I'd take maps like Doldobar Swamp and Bervenia Volcano (aka, the ones the player NEVER needs to visit) and make all four MFIs high-end poachables or better, since they're already likely going to be the locations of some of the most interesting and difficult random battles in the game.  This also rewards people for being creative, since if Geomancer gets its innate Movement abilities carried over from 1.3 you can (IIRC) nab the MFI in the lava panel on Bervenia Volcano now.  Speaking of that place, I'd remove the Materia Blade from there and make it come force-equipped on Cloud, because honestly I don't see how him NOT COMING WITH HIS DAMN SWORD makes any sense.

It'd be tedious to do this kind of thing, I know, but it'd be nice to at least make MFI'ing more relevant to the overall game and not just Deep Dungeon and a couple obscure grabs.  It'd in an odd way also help cure the problem of too few viable Movement skills, since bringing at least one unit to play treasure hunter would actually be worthwhile on many maps.  

Speaking of Deep Dungeon, though, I've some thoughts there as well.

1.  Make the levels scale, seriously.  I know 1.3 wants the place to be uber, but having to grind about 50 Levels for that place then likely be unable to beat the game unless you're ridiculous at it is stupid.  Removing easy AI cheeses and stuff should make the place a lot harder to begin with anyway, if you keep with the 1.3 tradition of loading the place with special classes and such.

2.  Could there be a few "stealing" fights?  Aka, fights against stuff like Ark Knights, Divine Knights, Holy Knights, Sorcerers, etc etc where they sport gear that can otherwise only be obtained via MFI in Deep Dungeon itself like Chaos Blade, etc and can be stolen from?  Obviously the difficulty on those fights would be cranked, both due to the gear being present and to make it harder to grab (maybe make it near-1.3 level hard?), but with one of the best rewards you can give someone if they can actually survive with both less/no AI cheeses, no Hamedo/Abandon/Teleport/etc (with them possibly having those skills), and with a Thief / means of going kleptomania on those enemies.  It could lead to some really difficult fights but with some nice rewards for people liked me who are bugged by having to always shuffle around their one Chaos Blade or Robe of Lords between fights, but would obviously not be necessary to beat the game.   Plus, if you have Divine Knights or Holy Swordsmen mixed in, you're making players risk their gear to earn more on top of all the other hellish stuff, keh.

3.  Can the stupid "find the panel to escape" thing be removed?  It was unnecessary, tedious, and with ASM'd's changes doing it could end up horrific even on some of the "easier" Deep Dungeon fights (as it'd take turns longer to reach and check each panel).  If there's a way to remove it, please do.  Or at least move them really close to the player or something if you can't.

4.  Byblos.  I don't know what we should do with him skillset-wise (I've never really used him), but IIRC his Br/Fa is random... please make it not-random and a set of scores that doesn't suck.  I think Worker 8 is preset, but if not do the same.  

I think that covers it for Deep Dungeon.



Also, did you ever find any info on making those four guest slots usable for party members?  I've looked around and I can't find ANY topics on it for some reason so far, which is really fucking odd.

[The Damned]

Haha, I was just mulling over Move-Find Item in my own patch. I agree with everything you've said, especially Deep Dungeon-wise (but then again Deep Dungeon is getting WAY remodeled in my patch, even though it's last priority). I only thing I'm not sure I agree with is the panel exit in Deep Dungeon because I think there's some trick to it on explained on GameFAQs or something.

(That and maybe the "stealing fights" considering what may happen with the items.)

Some thoughts I've been mulling over lately:  

First, Move-Find Item.

I don't know what you've done with it, but...

It needs to be 100%, especially without Fury implemented.  Even if you get a 40 Br dedicated MFI user, that's still resetting half the time if you walk onto a rare drop like a Vanish Mantle or Blood Sword and get the shit item instead.  I think we discussed that bit a long time ago, though.

I've been thinking about this in general and you could probably get away with making it so that, like with Javelin II and Escutcheon II, the item takes up both instances, making all item instances 100%. I don't see how doing that would cause any additional problems.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Haha, I was just mulling over Move-Find Item in my own patch. I agree with everything you've said, especially Deep Dungeon-wise (but then again Deep Dungeon is getting WAY remodeled in my patch, even though it's last priority). I only thing I'm not sure I agree with is the panel exit in Deep Dungeon because I think there's some trick to it on explained on GameFAQs or something.

(That and maybe the "stealing fights" considering what may happen with the items.)

It's not that there's no trick to it.  It's that some of the panels start on the other side of the map.  ASM'd heavily reduces movement range and likely will be making Deep Dungeon a lot harder than Vanilla in the way most patches do, so the panel exits are arbitrary difficulty.  They're in 1.3 and 1.3 Deep Dungeon has some ridiculous shit in it, sure, but 1.3 also has Teleport and the ability to easily stack 7-8 Move on things to make getting to them easier.  Without Teleport and your *max* move being roughly 5 or so (assuming high Move job and Move +2), it seems like the panel exits would just make things harder than they need to be since you'd need to keep that last (likely far more dangerous) enemy alive longer to get to each of the potential panel exists.

I've been thinking about this in general and you could probably get away with making it so that, like with Javelin II and Escutcheon II, the item takes up both instances, making all item instances 100%. I don't see how doing that would cause any additional problems.

That's what I was suggesting he do, really.

[philsov]

As for his stuff, let me see what I can find...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2128

^^
You need to quote his post to view the spoiler, since I'm guessing it got broken in the transfer all those months ago.

I think the best part is all breeds of monster only take 1 sprite in terms of the battle, so you can mount units on different breeds of the same monster for even more complex setups.  

....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

Looks like fun.  I'll need to read into it a little deeper to understand where all those references go so I can set everything up, but it sounds like fun to do for a fight or two.  But is a bit too complex to setup for a series of fights, maybe, we'll see how I feel after putting together a few with this trick.

Also, would it be alright for the archer skillset to have the ability to cancel positive statuses? That would make Archers invaluable vs M-Barrier spam (see that one NOGIAS).

Eh, between Yin-Yang and Talk Skill I think we're pretty good on that front, and Archers already have a status cleansing ability. Plus since Archers are effectively getting Poison, Wizards are gaining a cool little Shatter ability which cancels protect, shell, or regen and then deals a % amount of damage (30%-ish) to the target.

Could we program Draw out to just inflict statuses?

Certainly.  Kiyomori agrees with you.  If you mean at a less than 100% rate and more like a 25% rate, I think so through the use of the Seperate flag.  But having it do stuff like break weapons is beyond the formula limitations.

 

Rare, unpoachable MFIs like Blood Swords, etc. should only be on maps that can be accessed for random battles, because this both gives more incentive to explore the various random battles in the game and stop people from getting pissed about missing some random equipment because they were too busy trying to merely win a hard story fight and can't really go back once they've done it without resetting, since trying to MFI is like having a character with no Movement bonus.

I'd take maps like Doldobar Swamp and Bervenia Volcano (aka, the ones the player NEVER needs to visit) and make all four MFIs high-end poachables or better, since they're already likely going to be the locations of some of the most interesting and difficult random battles in the game. This also rewards people for being creative, since if Geomancer gets its innate Movement abilities carried over from 1.3 you can (IIRC) nab the MFI in the lava panel on Bervenia Volcano now. Speaking of that place, I'd remove the Materia Blade from there and make it come force-equipped on Cloud, because honestly I don't see how him NOT COMING WITH HIS DAMN SWORD makes any sense.

It'd be tedious to do this kind of thing, I know, but it'd be nice to at least make MFI'ing more relevant to the overall game and not just Deep Dungeon and a couple obscure grabs. It'd in an odd way also help cure the problem of too few viable Movement skills, since bringing at least one unit to play treasure hunter would actually be worthwhile on many maps.

1) I agree, MFI's should be more worthwhile in general with equipment a tier or two ahead of the shop curve or for expensive/rare/presently unbuyable Items.  The super-awesome pickups in the DD and nelveska will be 100%.

2) Rare MFI's are just that.  There's no way to limit the quantity on an item and make it accessible in a random at the same time.  Some items are going to be kept as rare and rare only.

3) Materia Blade on Cloud sounds good.  Always seemed random to go to the volcano anyways.

4) Dolbador and Bervania are already going to be a leet random battle locations because poaching is getting nerfed to the ground, and this is where most of the poaching goodies that are better than store-bought equipment can be found... through either battle trophies, MFIs, or stealables.  Or all 3 for that matter.  

1. Make the DD levels scale, seriously. I know 1.3 wants the place to be uber, but having to grind about 50 Levels for that place then likely be unable to beat the game unless you're ridiculous at it is stupid. Removing easy AI cheeses and stuff should make the place a lot harder to begin with anyway, if you keep with the 1.3 tradition of loading the place with special classes and such.

Sure.  That's how the old DD scheme was, anyways -- everything was partly level +20 or something.  Things were still easier at 99 but the gap wasn't nearly as horrible as it is now.

2. Could there be a few "stealing" fights?

Nope!  Rare is rare.  The DD fights will be purely for the sake of completing them.  

3. Can the stupid "find the panel to escape" thing be removed?

Possibly, but I don't know how at this time.  Offhand I'd guess it'd be a matter of tweaking commands in Attack.out and worldsomething, but removing that feature AND making it so the next map unlocks at the defeat of the previous one might be tricky.  It'd be easier (but still balls hard, for me) to unlock all the maps, but I like the whole progression thing.  But I can tune the "easy" fights around having to fine comb the damned place.  Nor are their locations easily editable.

4. Byblos.

Will be getting fixed Br/Fa.  His skillset is pretty good, I think.  (1.3) Difference is siiiiiiiiiick.  But I might expand him into some abilities from, like, Archaic Demons and Apandas.

Anyways, DD will be introduced in a follow-up patch after the first official release of this patch.  I want to get a wider pool of feedback and concrete the mechanics before designing the DD fights.  But suffice to say they will be similar to 1.3's in nature (13023 DD, not 13030) but not in the fights themselves.

[The Damned]

Excuse my ignorance, but was the difference between 13023 and 13030 DD?

Not every fight was against some type of uber NPC-class group of units? I vaguely remember liking that "Earth Wall" team, but that's only one I remember.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

From what I gather, you spawn the Chocobos, then give each rider a custom unit ID and walk them over.  I don't see how that creates a 22 unit fight, unless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

Looks like fun.  I'll need to read into it a little deeper to understand where all those references go so I can set everything up, but it sounds like fun to do for a fight or two.  But is a bit too complex to setup for a series of fights, maybe, we'll see how I feel after putting together a few with this trick.

I wasn't thinking for a ton of fights, just a few each Chapter tops starting with Chapter 2, and some randoms maybe.

It was just something I remembered and realized ASM'd could make great use of so I figured I'd mention it.

2) Rare MFI's are just that.  There's no way to limit the quantity on an item and make it accessible in a random at the same time.  Some items are going to be kept as rare and rare only.

Bro, it's an MFI.  You can only get an MFI once per map, unless my memory is heavily being raped by something.  I meant that if you have a "rare" MFI like Blood Sword, it just shouldn't be during a story battle.  The player can only get it once either way.

4) Dolbador and Bervania are already going to be a leet random battle locations because poaching is getting nerfed to the ground, and this is where most of the poaching goodies that are better than store-bought equipment can be found... through either battle trophies, MFIs, or stealables.  Or all 3 for that matter.

Sounds good.

Sure.  That's how the old DD scheme was, anyways -- everything was partly level +20 or something.  Things were still easier at 99 but the gap wasn't nearly as horrible as it is now.

Nope!  Rare is rare.  The DD fights will be purely for the sake of completing them.

You wound me, good sir.  I was looking forward to try stealing from 12 Orlandus sporting Abandon, Chaos Blades, Grand Helmets, Maximillians, and Setiemsons.

Possibly, but I don't know how at this time.  Offhand I'd guess it'd be a matter of tweaking commands in Attack.out and worldsomething, but removing that feature AND making it so the next map unlocks at the defeat of the previous one might be tricky.  It'd be easier (but still balls hard, for me) to unlock all the maps, but I like the whole progression thing.  But I can tune the "easy" fights around having to fine comb the damned place.  Nor are their locations easily editable.

I would imagine it'd just be as simple as changing whatever trigger is set off when you touch the panel to trigger at the end of the fight instead, but I don't edit.  If it's too much trouble, don't worry about it, but doing away with it would stop from needing to have one fight being "easy" enough to get the MFIs and panel exists.

Will be getting fixed Br/Fa.  His skillset is pretty good, I think.  (1.3) Difference is siiiiiiiiiick.  But I might expand him into some abilities from, like, Archaic Demons and Apandas.

More than good enough for me.  Him getting some of the otherwise unobtainable abilities from Demons and Apandas would be cool if only for the sake of being able to use them as a player.

Anyways, DD will be introduced in a follow-up patch after the first official release of this patch.  I want to get a wider pool of feedback and concrete the mechanics before designing the DD fights.  But suffice to say they will be similar to 1.3's in nature (13023 DD, not 13030) but not in the fights themselves.

Ah.  Sounds good, though I've never played 1.3023.  I'm such a scrub.

[The Damned]

....and then creates, if I'm reading this correctly, a 22-enemy fight.  Maybe -- wouldn't that break the unit list? >_>

From what I gather, you spawn the Chocobos, then give each rider a custom unit ID and walk them over.  I don't see how that creates a 22 unit fight, unless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

He probably meant that because the Chocobos themselves will count as units once the rider dies.

[formerdeathcorps]

You still have to observe the 11 enemy max limit because to mount a chocobo, that chocobo and the mounted knight have to both be referenced in the ENTD (which won't load if you exceed limits).