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FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

Started by philsov, October 11, 2009, 04:38:12 pm

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"You still have to observe the 11 enemy max limit because to mount a chocobo, that chocobo and the mounted knight have to both be referenced in the ENTD (which won't load if you exceed limits).

Except that no one ever suggested he have more than 5 mounted enemies per fight (or even that all enemies be mounted), hence why I've no idea where his number even comes from.

Even the demonstration video Zodiac uses has only 5 Chocobo Knights in it against Ramza + 4 party members.

RavenOfRazgriz

Posting again for two reasons.

First, this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923

Second, Comet is instantcast magic using Choco Meteor's graphic.  Choco Meteor is instantcast magic.  Can't we combine them and get ANOTHER ability slot to toy with?  Also, can't we combine Esuna and Choco Esuna just as easily?  Hell, I'm tempted to suggest making Esuna instantcast and/or upping the amount of statuses it remedies because I'm pretty sure it's mostly underpowered and outclassed by equivalent skills such as Remedy and Stigma Magic.  Heh, I've just realized all the Chocobo skills can be combined with either existing magic or something you've created.  If you hadn't made Choco Cure a Blue Magic I'd ask if you'd want to combine with with a Cure Spell, heh.

Quick thoughts, but they seem sensible enough and would allow you two more ability slots to toy with.  Also, vanilla Cheer Up in retrospect, is it worth taking up the ability slot to give it to Ramza since it's nothing more than a more-accurate version of the Mediator skill?  I'm asking because it may be worth dedicating the ability slot to something else.

philsov

Quote from: "The Damned"Excuse my ignorance, but was the difference between 13023 and 13030 DD?

Not every fight was against some type of uber NPC-class group of units? I vaguely remember liking that "Earth Wall" team, but that's only one I remember.

Pretty much.  A lot less ???'s floating around, a lot of other concept-ish fights that were difficult that got removed for something even harder.  My complaint with the 13030 deep dungeon is that theres so much ??? and status immunity floating that the number of viable setups is greatly diminished.

Quoteunless you intend to have Ramza + 4 vs 11 mounted enemies or some ridiculous shit.

That was the plan but apparently I misread the information, if its all within a single ENTD.

QuoteYou can only get an MFI once per map,

shows how often I use MFI, lol.
QuoteFirst, this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4923

Second, Comet is instantcast magic using Choco Meteor's graphic. Choco Meteor is instantcast magic. Can't we combine them and get ANOTHER ability slot to toy with? Also, can't we combine Esuna and Choco Esuna just as easily? Hell, I'm tempted to suggest making Esuna instantcast and/or upping the amount of statuses it remedies because I'm pretty sure it's mostly underpowered and outclassed by equivalent skills such as Remedy and Stigma Magic. Heh, I've just realized all the Chocobo skills can be combined with either existing magic or something you've created. If you hadn't made Choco Cure a Blue Magic I'd ask if you'd want to combine with with a Cure Spell, heh.

Quick thoughts, but they seem sensible enough and would allow you two more ability slots to toy with. Also, vanilla Cheer Up in retrospect, is it worth taking up the ability slot to give it to Ramza since it's nothing more than a more-accurate version of the Mediator skill? I'm asking because it may be worth dedicating the ability slot to something else.

1) Great discovery!  Though I don't foresee needing much else out of it.  I like the AI ignoring all the other effects.

2) No, as the magical versions are faith based while choco is pure MA in both cases -- and real esuna has a CTR.

QT - Possibly.  But currently there's -still- blank ability slots so I see no reason why mess with it until I actually reach the time.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "philsov"That was the plan but apparently I misread the information, if its all within a single ENTD.

Well, the good news is the Chocobos still kill shit when the riders die! :D

Quote from: "philsov"QT - Possibly.  But currently there's -still- blank ability slots so I see no reason why mess with it until I actually reach the time.

I'm mostly just trying to think of every possible thing that can be combined for when that time comes.  May as well get it done now so there's a quick and easy place to find the info if/when you need it.  :p

formerdeathcorps

I'd make it so the AI targets DS and Confused units if in range.  Both lead to some rather infamous exploits.

I don't know how far you all want to go, but unless you want each Lucavi/boss to have 4+ distinct spells, you should be fine.  I'm currently having 1 excess spell on my patch and I made close to 35 new spells and I didn't need to do what Raven suggested.

Auto-Esuna is a little much though.  When was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"Auto-Esuna is a little much though.  When was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?

I can't remember the last time I even casted Esuna to heal anything besides Petrify outside of Chapter 1.  It's always more efficient to just have Item/Remedy most of the time.

Which is why I think it should be instant and/or should heal a wider range of statuses in order to make it worth the MP (and time if it keeps CT) to cast.

formerdeathcorps

Then the obvious problem is remedy being too cheap.  Esuna is a fairly balanced spell as is, though you could expand the AoE to create a mass Esuna 2 spell to counter grand cross/bad breath (as I did in mine).
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

philsov

QuoteWhen was the last time someone managed to move and kill your WM before esuna went off?

Nev...er?  It's called looking at the AT list.  Esuna is multi-target, and useful over remedy on curing multi-target status effects like Blind, Paralyze, Mimic Daravon, etc.  Both it and remedy do their job pretty well, and then there's always stigma magic / refute / heal / salve / Lick to round things off.  

As for "wider range of status", what more do you want it to do?  Cure chicken?  (Truthfully I'll probably expand it to cure Oil and Stop, but that's aside from the point).

Nor does remedy cure either don't move or don't act.

Esuna's fine.  Really.

~

But!  Onto more awesome things.  Been dicking around with Zodiac's two attack.out editors.

The first lets me toggle battle conditions -- specifically I'm interested in making a majority of the assassination fights "defeat all enemies".  I could do a LOT more with this (race Ramza to X while a horde of well-placed and deadly foes nip at his heels, for example), but I'm content with just going from "ice this dude" to "ice ALL dudes".

The second, which I find more personally interesting, lets me (for all storyline and DD battles, dunno about randoms yet)

- limit the number of people in my squad (anywhere from 1 to 5)
- alter my starting positions
- establish 2-squad setups if I so choose (think Beltha Sluice or Golgarond).  

Which all sounds like fun little twists to throw into the mix.  Anyone have a battle that immediately comes to mind that'd be better off with a split, moved, and/or reduced party?  So far the only thing I've come up with is loading up Delita's side at Sand Rat Cellar, if for nothing else but to leave Algus all alone as the battle starts.

edit:  dammit fcd you ninjaed the 666 post -_-
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "philsov"The second, which I find more personally interesting, lets me (for all storyline and DD battles, dunno about randoms yet)

- limit the number of people in my squad (anywhere from 1 to 5)
- alter my starting positions
- establish 2-squad setups if I so choose (think Beltha Sluice or Golgarond).  

Which all sounds like fun little twists to throw into the mix.  Anyone have a battle that immediately comes to mind that'd be better off with a split, moved, and/or reduced party?  So far the only thing I've come up with is loading up Delita's side at Sand Rat Cellar, if for nothing else but to leave Algus all alone as the battle starts.

...A part of me thinks you're enjoying this a bit too much.  :p

Lol @ Algus thing.  You should do that for the humor aspect of it, but I think that'd actually make the fight easier if the whole team starts on one side.  Then again, you can also alter the amount/placement of enemies to compensate, so all seems like it could be balanced out.

Other fights that could use having the amount of people in-squad be split up / changed...

Goug Machine City, you could have the player's units be in two squads that each spawn in one of the map's corners behind Ramza instead of directly behind him.  Eh.

Yardow Fort City could have two parties coming in instead of one since outside the gate is one big plain area, but again kinda eh.  Yuguo Woods as well.

Poeskas Lake could be messed with.  You could also do some ridiculous shit like add ghosts of already defeated bosses like Miluda/Wiegraf/Gafgarion/Izlude/Algus/etc in them.  3 way battle between Ramza's team, ??? undead Miluda and Golgaros, and ??? Undead Algus would be an EPIC Yuguo Woods.  Or possibly minus the ??? and plus more relevant units.  Definitely plenty of material for Poeskas Lake as well.

For Inside Limberry Castle... hmmm... well, nothing position-wise, but the Assassins... hmm... maybe make them turn into something else besides Ultima Demons if killed?  Get a recolored set of Assassin sprites and make them turn into undead Assassins or some ridiculous shit?

The second Colliery battle could see split teams coming in more towards the corners, maybe?  Eh.

Eh, there's not that much I can think of where the two-party thing can be sensibly applied but isn't already.  Except the Deep Dungeon.  Have a fucking ball in there, bro.



EDIT:  How much can we mess with sprites?  1.3 added Kanbabrif's full sprite and whatnot, so there has to be SOME room there.  Some things like using the alternate Agrias sprite, the Advent Children Cloud sprite, maybe giving Miluda her own sprite (I think there's one of her lying around somewhere?), etc. could make nice flavor touches.  It'd also give you more material for the spoof script as far as Agrias and Cloud go.

If we could find a way to make use of those Guest Character slots, I'd suggest maybe making a mildly cliche move and making Alicia/Lavian/Rad/Boco into pseudo-Specials and doing it with enough class to make it epic since we've already fucked/are fucking many other aspects of the game, but I don't think we should have more Specials than available party slots after Ramza + 4 Generics has been considered.

The Damned

Alicia, Lavian, Rad & Boco already ARE pseudo-Specials, unless you mean actually giving them some non-generic abilities since the only things that differentiates them from other generics are set stats and birthdates/Zodiac signs. That doesn't seem to be what you're saying, though. (Then again, I might be incorrect since I'm perhaps considering what I'm doing with those characters, well Rad at least.)

Speaking of (doomed) special characters, having just finished my prototype of the new Lancer (which still needs testing), I was wonder if you were considering doing anything with Lancers and/or Izlude (poor, poor Izlude, bastard to fight that he is), philsov?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "The Damned"Alicia, Lavian, Rad & Boco already ARE pseudo-Specials, unless you mean actually giving them some non-generic abilities since the only things that differentiates them from other generics are set stats and birthdates/Zodiac signs. That doesn't seem to be what you're saying, though. (Then again, I might be incorrect since I'm perhaps considering what I'm doing with those characters, well Rad at least.)

I meant their own Mustadio-like skillsets, with skills and growths that are unique but nothing to really write home about compared to the rest of the game.

It'd be a nice little touch if nothing else, assuming those slots could be made available.  If not, oh well.

Quote from: "The Damned"Speaking of (doomed) special characters, having just finished my prototype of the new Lancer (which still needs testing), I was wonder if you were considering doing anything with Lancers and/or Izlude (poor, poor Izlude, bastard to fight that he is), philsov?

Watching people try to fight 1.3 Izlude at level 40-50 on a live stream is the most amusing thing ever, honestly.

The Damned

*had to do that last time and will probably have to do that this time too*

Please don't remind me.

Anyway, it's odd. I've been messing with the ENTD lately, and I've noticed that Rad, Lavian, Alicia AND Boco seem to have sprite sheet settings in the list. However, those sprite sheets aren't used, just the generic forms. Are these sprite sheets flawed?

Similarly, I was surprised to find out that Aeris's sprite supposedly corresponds to a generic female Chemist. I guess I can see the similarities thinking on it, but...yeah.

Don't mind me....
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "The Damned"*had to do that last time and will probably have to do that this time too*

Please don't remind me.

Too late.

Random thoughts:

I've been trying to think of good was to get rid of Initial: Haste off Excalibur and Setiemson, but still have nothing,  Part of me is thinking that making Excalibur Holy Elemental could be cool so it boosts itself but that seems meh.  Also, I remembered one of the bags (H Bag, I believe) gives Speed +1 in 1.3.  I'm thinking this is something that should be changed, but I've no idea how.   As far as other Perfumes go, I'm thinking Salty Rage could be Always: Protect/Shell like it currently is, but given the debuff of Weak: All Elements or something so that Elemental strikes still do roughly even damage unless the user compensates for them.

Mostly random thoughts in terms of equipment that I'm not sure if/how I'm going to finally incorporate into that giant notepad log, but I felt posting them could be useful in case someone gets an idea for them.

The Damned

Hmmm...I can't think of anything that would mesh with what philsov's doing considering he doesn't seem to be changing that many elemental abilities, but you did just give me an idea about Excalibur (that's completely unrelated to your proposoal).

Still can't help with Perfumes since mine are totally different. Still sorry.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

philsov

QuoteEDIT: How much can we mess with sprites? 1.3 added Kanbabrif's full sprite and whatnot, so there has to be SOME room there.

Afaik... 1, found in Celia's (or Ledes?) sprite, since both assassins only use 1 sprite sheet.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

The Damned

To clarify, then after that 1 redundancy, then everything we replace has a 1-to-1 effect on the game I'm guessing?

(Wait, don't Celia and Lede use Dancer's sprite sheet anyway? Are they separate from that? I'm asking partially because I noticed the redundancy, but also because I'm replacing Dancer, so....)

@RavenofRazgriz: I've been thinking about it since I started redoing Longbows and Crossbows yesterday: Doesn't Salem Bow seem a tad too anti-magic? I'm sure magic is a significantly more powerful due to the speed reduction and the range reduction, but it's just seems to still feel unsure to me to have a status effect that's specifically useful against one class and then completely useless against another.

(Not that you can ultimately do anything against what philsov decides to actually do; neither can I. I will also admit that this is colored by the fact that I've changed Silence to Addle as LD and FDC also have.)

I can't really think of a replacement, which is an additional problem with suggesting something's "wrong".
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "The Damned"To clarify, then after that 1 redundancy, then everything we replace has a 1-to-1 effect on the game I'm guessing?

(Wait, don't Celia and Lede use Dancer's sprite sheet anyway? Are they separate from that? I'm asking partially because I noticed the redundancy, but also because I'm replacing Dancer, so....)

Aren't there also multiple instances of Gafgarion, Agrias, etc. that can easily be overwritten and just have some numbers switched around to have all of them reference the one remaining instance of each character?

Or did 1.3 already do all that kind of stuff and eat up most of the resulting space, philsov, since I know you're using Easytype base?

Quote from: "The Damned"@RavenofRazgriz: I've been thinking about it since I started redoing Longbows and Crossbows yesterday: Doesn't Salem Bow seem a tad too anti-magic? I'm sure magic is a significantly more powerful due to the speed reduction and the range reduction, but it's just seems to still feel unsure to me to have a status effect that's specifically useful against one class and then completely useless against another.

(Not that you can ultimately do anything against what philsov decides to actually do; neither can I. I will also admit that this is colored by the fact that I've changed Silence to Addle as LD and FDC also have.)

At 25% status and evadable, I don't see it much more harmful than Silence spells, etc., but I suppose it could be.

The only other idea I had was a Crossbow that inficted Zombie but I don't think that can be justified on non-legendary gear.  If Archer gets a Hunter-like skillset, I imagine most of the other statuses will be covered in there, so... eh.  Bows are bows, guns are guns, Longbows covered Elementals and Gastrifitis doubleshots so I don't have too many ideas for an alternative to Salem Bow right now.

The Damned

Speaking of that Gastrifitis, I found it rather odd that the strongest Crossbow is the (only) one that can double shot.

However, that might just be me.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

philsov

Actually after poking around in shishi there should be at least a handful of available sprite slots (~9).  However, there's a string of random male squires and the assassins (apparently both are unused?) to toy with, so I can input cameos of sprites for a few random battles or something.  However, odds are that these will be battle and enemy-only, if for nothing else that loading these sprite pre-battle might look like crap.   I really don't want to introduce or take in completely new characters, anyways.  

QuoteAren't there also multiple instances of Gafgarion, Agrias, etc. that can easily be overwritten and just have some numbers switched around to have all of them reference the one remaining instance of each character?

Well... yes and no.  In-battle sprites I can alter in the ENTD, but in the formation I'm pretty sure it doesn't carry through.  

But on the plus side Miluda's new sprite works well ingame, and I can import Agrias' sprite as well if for nothing other than a change.  

Also because I thought I answered this before:  I have no plans for changing jump.  While there is ample ability space for introducing a new Lancer skillset, I actually think the job command is worth keeping around (unlike Charge).
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: "The Damned"Speaking of that Gastrifitis, I found it rather odd that the strongest Crossbow is the (only) one that can double shot.

However, that might just be me.

The idea was that everything other Crossbow had some kind of defensive property to it (either higher W-Ev or a disabling status), so Gastrifitis was the balls-to-the-wall heavy aggro Crossbow.  It might be able to do with a W-Ev drop, though.  Like I noted on the fire, Bows / Crossbows / Guns / couple other areas were all places that didn't satisfy me that much.

Quote from: "philsov"Actually after poking around in shishi there should be at least a handful of available sprite slots (~9).  However, there's a string of random male squires and the assassins (apparently both are unused?) to toy with, so I can input cameos of sprites for a few random battles or something.  However, odds are that these will be battle and enemy-only, if for nothing else that loading these sprite pre-battle might look like crap.   I really don't want to introduce or take in completely new characters, anyways.

That's mostly the kind of thing I was thinking of, sprite and palette swaps where it's possible and at least somewhat tasteful to give the game its own "feel", not a lot of unique specials.  Like I said, the only "new" specials I could even see are Alicia/Lavian/Rad/Boco, and only if those four slots can be freed up.  Otherwise, just sprite and palette dickery to make ASM'd look unique without messing anything up too badly.

Quote from: "philsov"Well... yes and no.  In-battle sprites I can alter in the ENTD, but in the formation I'm pretty sure it doesn't carry through.  

But on the plus side Miluda's new sprite works well ingame, and I can import Agrias' sprite as well if for nothing other than a change.

If I remember correctly, replacing enemy Gafgarion is standard procedure because it's one of the sprites that carry over for that kind of thing.

Either way, that's again not really what I was talking about outside of straight sprite swaps on Specials when possible/appropriate.  Miluda's sprite working in-game is quite win, now epicsauce can be done with her and it won't look out of place!

Quote from: "philsov"Also because I thought I answered this before:  I have no plans for changing jump.  While there is ample ability space for introducing a new Lancer skillset, I actually think the job command is worth keeping around (unlike Charge).

Agreed.  Plus, I think there's a bunch of bullshit problems when it comes to a player character using an edited Jump menu that involves needing to master Squire and Squire needing to have equal or more abilities than the edited Lancer, etc.

(Luckily, this problem doesn't exist with Charge from what I've seen.)