Stop calling Final Fantasy XII a bad game

[Shade]

I won't stop calling it a bad game.

Final Fantasy XII sucks.

Bad things
Political shit story that doesn't  connect our main heroes much. Judges are awsome and are so awsome that they overshadow main characters. The game is WAY too easy. License system is just waste of an time on equipments. HOW THE FUCK CAN'T I GET ENOUGH MONEY AFTER 3 HOURS OF GATHERING MONEY?!?!?!? Music is boring to hear. I have very abusive thing in this game(shall not be mentioned). Battle system is boring. ERYTHING THAT IS MAGIC and ISN'T BUFF MAGIC OR HEALING MAGIC IS USELESS.

Good things
Gambits are make your own AI basicly and IS ONLY FUN PART OF THE GAME WTF!

[Kaijyuu]

Have to agree with Arch there. Tidus isn't horribly whiny but he's quite the punk, and Terra has sightly more personality than a plank of wood.

[Vanya]

Tidus isn't a whinny punk?

News to me

They don't grow much during their stories

I'd agree that Squall doesn't grow much, but Cloud? holy shit I'd be hard pressed to find other FF characters which go through so many changes as Cloud does

your comment sounds more like anti-fan-boyish rage that actual thought out opinions

Tidus starts out almost as whinny as Squall, but you really get the sense that he 'grows up' during the course of the game.
Cloud does go through a lot of stuff during his story, but how does he grow from it?
He's an emotionless prick at the beginning, then he freaks out about maybe being a Sephiroth clone, and then when he learns the truth he ends up with the personality of a whitewash 2x4. The only time he seems believable at all is when Aerith dies.

Have to agree with Arch there. Tidus isn't horribly whiny but he's quite the punk, and Terra has sightly more personality than a plank of wood.

Tidus does start out as a punk, but unlike Cloud and Squall he is actually shown to grow out of it. Even Vaan manages to grow a bit during the short span of FF12.
At least Terra grows. She starts like a stick because how her mind was fucked with by Kefka & the Empire. She learns not to define herself by her ability to use magic and to care for other in a way that she was never able to experience fer herself growing up. Hell, she basically adopts an entire town and becomes the mother that she never really had. Not to mention that FF6 has at least 1/2 a dozen characters that are as as interesting and show actual growth. I think that's a pretty impressive accomplishment considering the over abundance of characters to develop and the 16-bit era limitations.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

The only thing that irritated me about ffxii was that I couldn't just take off and explore THE ENTIRE WORLD from the get go.  That and my standard rpg complaint about almost all of the spells and equipment being redundant by end game.

[boomkick]

I'd agree that Squall doesn't grow much, but Cloud? holy shit I'd be hard pressed to find other FF characters which go through so many changes as Cloud does

your comment sounds more like anti-fanboyish rage that actual thought out opinions

[Vanya]

Tidus starts out almost as whinny as Squall, but you really get the sense that he 'grows up' during the course of the game.
Cloud does go through a lot of stuff during his story, but how does he grow from it?
He's an emotionless prick at the beginning, then he freaks out about maybe being a Sephiroth clone, and then when he learns the truth he ends up with the personality of a whitewash 2x4. The only time he seems believable at all is when Aerith dies.

...and BTW...

...
your comment sounds more like anti-fanboyish rage that actual thought out opinions

I don't harbor rage against what other people like. And my opinions are normally well thought out unless I'm drunk posting.

[The Damned]

Sigh, this is why I don't bother making jokes.

Yet again FFVII takes over a FF discussion it didn't have anything to do with in the first place.

[Archael]

lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

[degrofm]

Sigh, this is why I don't bother making jokes.

Yet again FFVII takes over a FF discussion it didn't have anything to do with in the first place.

Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

[Dokurider]

lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

Woah, woah wait. Just because FF7 had better characters than FFX, that doesn't not mean 7 is better than 10. FFX has better art (no fucking lego people), Auron, and a superior battle system.

I won't stop calling it a bad game.

Final Fantasy XII sucks.

Bad things
Political shit story that doesn't  connect our main heroes much. Judges are awsome and are so awsome that they overshadow main characters. The game is WAY too easy. License system is just waste of an time on equipments. HOW THE FUCK CAN'T I GET ENOUGH MONEY AFTER 3 HOURS OF GATHERING MONEY?!?!?!? Music is boring to hear. I have very abusive thing in this game(shall not be mentioned). Battle system is boring. ERYTHING THAT IS MAGIC and ISN'T BUFF MAGIC OR HEALING MAGIC IS USELESS.

Good things
Gambits are make your own AI basicly and IS ONLY FUN PART OF THE GAME WTF!

Gambits = a part of the battle system. Since most of the battle system is about gambits, I don't understand what you are talking about, to the surprise of no one.

Actually, the "Political shit story" does connect with at least Ashe and Basche. They are arguably the main characters. I thought the Judges were forgettable, but the idea of Judges are pretty cool.

Magic, attack magic, would actually still be good end game if it wasn't for the graphical limitations on the PS2. Besides, Magic and statuses becoming useless is a common problem in almost all FFs. Being too easy is a common problem in almost all FFs. Having abusive shortcuts are a common problem in almost all FFs. It's almost like it's SE's design philosophy. FFXII did a good job on making magic and statuses useful for the good part of the game and onward. I would say that FFXII is as hard as FFT. Only easy if you know what you are doing. I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to License system. My point wasn't that FFXII is a bad game because of the same reasons that most of the modern FFs are bad, my point is that FFXII is not the worst FF game by a long shot. This game is fucking Shakespeare when compared to shit heaps like FF8 and FFX.

[The Damned]

Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

Hence why I said that I shouldn't have bothered making that joke at all.

Sigh.

[Archael]

FF7 has awesome art

Auron isn't a plus for FF10, it's like saying that FF7 is good cuz it has sephiroth in it -_-

FF10's art is good, yeah, but overall I'd say FF7 is a better game

[degrofm]

Now, you do realize that you were the first person to mention FFVII, right?

Hence why I said that I shouldn't have bothered making that joke at all.

Sigh.

Oh, that was a joke? Hm. Obviously everyone has thought you were serious.

[The Damned]

Which is why I tend to not make jokes in the first place.

People tend to think I'm serious when I'm joking and joking when I'm serious. It is but one curse of many in my life.

The Internet is a poor medium for trying to communicate something subtle that people would probably miss in real life too. As I said earlier, I don't much care about FF7. It's akin to Twilight to me: I'll shake my head when people say it's the best thing ever (or, in Twilight's case, that even comes close to good writing--oddly similarly to people thinking that Sephiroth is a good antagonist; I would sooner argue that Cloud is a likable protagonist than that) and sigh that it's so popular for all the wrong reasons, but otherwise I tend to not let it bother me or bring it up.

Anyway, as for the topic at hand, FFXII is easily not the worst FF and it doesn't seem to be a bad game thus far, though it does have its failings. (It also doesn't help that Japan never releases International versions outside of Japan. Why the hell do they call them International then...?)

[Dokurider]

FF7 has awesome art

In battle, yes. Outside of battle, which is were you are 75% of the time, hell no. The characters look absolutely hideous, even for the time.

When it comes to RPG's I put far more stock in the battle system than any other aspect of the game. FFVII's battle system is very rough and unpolished and unbalanced. FFX is far more finished, with much better balance.

[Vanya]

lol @  tidus grows as a character argument

ff7 > ff10

sure it has bad fanboys, but don't bash it just cuz you can't get over the superficial sephiroth bs

You're just trolling now, dude.
Right now you sound like you're arguing for 7 > 10 just to defend so called 'fan-boys'.
If that's not the case, then why don't you actually explain your opinion?
You know, give some examples of character development in 7 that you think is better than in 10.

Actually, the "Political shit story" does connect with at least Ashe and Basche. They are arguably the main characters. I thought the Judges were forgettable, but the idea of Judges are pretty cool.

Magic, attack magic, would actually still be good end game if it wasn't for the graphical limitations on the PS2. Besides, Magic and statuses becoming useless is a common problem in almost all FFs. Being too easy is a common problem in almost all FFs. Having abusive shortcuts are a common problem in almost all FFs. It's almost like it's SE's design philosophy. FFXII did a good job on making magic and statuses useful for the good part of the game and onward. I would say that FFXII is as hard as FFT. Only easy if you know what you are doing. I don't understand what you are talking about when it comes to License system. My point wasn't that FFXII is a bad game because of the same reasons that most of the modern FFs are bad, my point is that FFXII is not the worst FF game by a long shot. This game is fucking Shakespeare when compared to shit heaps like FF8 and FFX.

I have to disagree slightly about the story. The reason it is often perceived as a 'political shit story' is because it fails to more thoroughly tie the characters together. It's no better than all the other lame-ass Empire gimmicks they've utilized since FF2. But most of the earlier games did a better, if simplistic job of bringing the characters together. They were getting it right during the first half of 12 where they had the whole 'I can see the ghost, too!' thing they had going on between Vaan & Ashe. If they had kept using that plot device to help draw in the characters it would have been much more interesting. As it stand it basically goes nowhere and is for the most part irrelevant to the story. This leaves things where the only reasons that the characters are there is for either revenge against the Empire or to stick by one of the other characters. It leaves most of them slightly underdeveloped in my opinion. But at least there is some growth to be had. But definitely not remotely approaching FF10.

I have to agree that the license system is inferior to the oxymoronic 'sphere grid' system of FF10. It felt forced to a great degree and the Internetional version's revision is a big leap in the right direction. On a side note, there is a guy translating it to English over at ROMHacking.org.

[Archael]

FF7 has awesome art

In battle, yes. Outside of battle, which is were you are 75% of the time, hell no. The characters look absolutely hideous, even for the time.

When it comes to RPG's I put far more stock in the battle system than any other aspect of the game. FFVII's battle system is very rough and unpolished and unbalanced. FFX is far more finished, with much better balance.

there's other things besides hideous characters in FF7  outside of battle... have you taken a look at FF7's backrounds?? (yes, outside of battle)

You're just trolling now, dude.
Right now you sound like you're arguing for 7 > 10 just to defend so called 'fan-boys'.
If that's not the case, then why don't you actually explain your opinion?

7 > 10 because it has superior storytelling and superior character development, 2 aspects of an RPG which I think are much more important than visuals. (Though I do think FF7's designs (read: designs, not graphics) are better than FF10's, something which is needs to be looked at carefully when you take into consideration the graphic engine differences responsible for running both games.)

In FF7, you are thrown into a world in turmoil (Midgar) and your character's perspective is limited to just destroying the big enemy (Shinra) and bombing the shit out of reactors. Then you realize that Midgar is just 1 spot on the entire world map and the more you play, the more the scale of the game and the actual circumstances surrounding the characters excalate. It keeps getting crazier and crazier until you finally go confront the (revealed to be) true enemy which is Sephiroth (or arguably Jenova, or even Hojo, depending on who you believe is controlling who and who is ultimately responsible for the entire mess). It's storytelling on an epic level and is the reason so many people loved FF7, Sephiroth Fanboyism not included.

In FF10, you are thrown into a world in turmoil (Dream Zanarkand) that doesn't really exist in the first place, and is actually the dream of the spirits of the real world (Fayths IIRC?). Then the more you play, the more you realize that the true enemy is actually god, who is using the process of the final summoning and an entire religious faith to re-create his Sin Shell out of the Final Aeon that he controls and uses as armor to travel around the world pwning n00bs. Then you reach the final boss, and realize that this Sin's Shell is actually your father's Final Aeon, and that you must defeat it to kill the final boss, then kill god after that, then kill all the aeons so that god cannot use them to create a new Sin Armor.

Which one do you think has the better story? C'mon... I'm not going to get too much into character development because I think we both agree that Cloud changes alot more than Tidus and that Tidus is alot more punk-ass-bitch (as you said) than Cloud ever was. Tidus does change in FF10 I'd say almost as much as Cloud does, but I never got the feeling from Tidus when he finds out his father is within Sin (and when he FINDS OUT HE"S NOT EVEN REAL) as I got from Cloud when he spends some time in the Lifestream, discovers who he is, and that his entire past is a lie. Tidus' reactions are like "wow this sucks" compared to Cloud, who has some truly bizzare scenes with mind-trip dialogue about himself as a person.

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I think you can begin to compare Cloud to Tidus as a main.

 In FF7, even the main villain of the game goes through some massive character transformations, which is more than I can say for FF10's villains. Tidus' father, which is basically telling him "boy, you're still too skinny" from the start of the game right until the final boss fight. Yu Yevon is, well, it just repeats the same thing over and over and has no real character. Yunalesca the same. Yuna found out her entire religion was a lie and that her god is evil and actually IS sin and just goes "o well, lets kill it then" with NP's.

FF10 offers up some BLAND acting across the board, and I got more from reading FF7's characters written dialogue than from hearing it from bland writing / VAing in FF10, and that says alot.

[Kaijyuu]

I blame it on being an early game for the ps1, but largely I found FF7's environments to be murky unnavigable messes.

Horrible looking game. At least in the NES games I could see what things were.

[Archael]

I blame it on being an early game for the ps1, but largely I found FF7's environments to be murky unnavigable messes.

Horrible looking game. At least in the NES games I could see what things were.

the in-battle environments suck

outside of battle not so much

[Dokurider]

there's other things besides hideous characters in FF7 outside of battle... have you taken a look at FF7's backrounds?? (yes, outside of battle)

Yes, I have. I've also seen how badly they clash with the out of battle characters models, which ruin the moment. You only see those backgrounds occasionally, but you are always looking at those models.