FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Why thank you.

As for your latest, I looked through it and I'm guessing the only changes that I noticed in the document that you didn't note in the post was that in your thought process under hats, it still says Holy Miter Absorbs Dark instead of Cancels Dark and that you make no mention of there being a problem with Cherche despite the fact that you changed both Iron Fan and Guard Gauntlets.

Aegis EDIT: Speaking of a possible problem with Defend, wouldn't Cherche (and well, the Defend action by itself) with Aegis Shield give you 100% M-EV?

I didn't edit thought process on purpose because I like people to see the flow of my notes in the hopes it'll remedy questions before they're asked.  I should've made a NOTE-EDIT, though.  I will next time I update it, since I'm sure there's more to be done.  Cherche should've been noted somewhere, but it slipped my mind at the time.

EDIT is why Iron Fan is specifically edited to be Two Hands, honestly.  I'd like to remedy this with Cherche (I kinda hate the idea of Perfumes being broken accessories in general, though I know they're rare and blah blah), but I don't have any ideas to improve upon 1.3 Cherche.  I don't think it should be reverted to Vanilla and given Reflect, but nothing striking comes to mind since Salty Rage is already Protect/Shell.  Then again, this also makes me want to add something to Float Boots so that Cherche doesn't completely retcon them... and take Cherche's evasion 1.3 gave it away so that it doesn't retcon Feather Mantle.

Thoughts?

[The Damned]

I can't really help you there, I'm afraid.

I was initially going to get rid of all-female only items since they're generally overpowered pieces of crap, but I decided to keep Perfumes solely because I changed them entirely. They're a more "seasonal" thing so to speak and so they're not broken like Chantage (though I can't make them appear in stores, which annoys me); they're completely different from what they once were, so anything I said would be kind of a rather anathema to you wanting to keep things like 1.3 Perfumes.

I also partially changed them to a seasonal thing because I noticed that really aren't that many positive statuses to put into pairs (especially without making the pairs broken).

You could just get rid of Cherche completely and replace it with something else, but that's akin to probably needing to change Cherche completely so it doesn't step on other things like you said. Reverting it back to Float and Reflect just makes it step on Reflect Ring (and Reflect Mail in a way) anyway.

It seems pretty lose-lose, really.

The only thing I could see would maybe making it Halve Wind because of Float being weak to Wind now and maybe giving Feather Boots back Move +1 or giving it Jump +1, but I'm not sure if Float from items make you weak to Float since apparently the Float movement doesn't.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I can't really help you there, I'm afraid.

I was initially going to get rid of all-female only items since they're generally overpowered pieces of crap, but I decided to keep Perfumes solely because I changed them entirely. They're a more "seasonal" thing so to speak and so they're not broken like Chantage (though I can't make them appear in stores, which annoys me); they're completely different from what they once were, so anything I said would be kind of a rather anathema to you wanting to keep things like 1.3 Perfumes.

I also partially changed them to a seasonal thing because I noticed that really aren't that many positive statuses to put into pairs (especially without making the pairs broken).

You could just get rid of Cherche completely and replace it with something else, but that's akin to probably needing to change Cherche completely so it doesn't step on other things like you said. Reverting it back to Float and Reflect just makes it step on Reflect Ring (and Reflect Mail in a way) anyway.

It seems pretty lose-lose, really.

The only thing I could see would maybe making it Halve Wind because of Float being weak to Wind now and maybe giving Feather Boots back Move +1 or giving it Jump +1, but I'm not sure if Float from items make you weak to Float since apparently the Float movement doesn't.

I'd be fine with pretty much do-overing Cherche (since once I remove Evasion and Defending, I'm at a pre-Vanilla state regardless), same with some other Perfumes, but again ideas are short.

I'm note sure I can see Float Boots with Move +1, as it'd make Germinas Boots fairly useless if I'm remembering things correctly.  Then again, I can't remember right now if the 1h from Float improves Jumping up in the same way Jump +1 does.  If it doesn't, I think Move +1 on bot would be fine.

Cherche: PA +1, Initial: Float, Defending. Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Wind, Earth, Water, Holy, Dark. Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning Wind, Earth, Water, Holy, Dark.

?

This makes it kind of opposite of the current Setiemson, boosting PA instead of MA with Initial Float and Defending to contrast Initial Haste and Transparent  (Defensive vs Offensive), which should be fine as Initial Defending should wear off with the first action a-la Transparent. The Half/Weak all thing on the end is to make it worth using, as the Initial Float/Defending doesn't seem like it'd be enough by itself (unlike Initial Haste/Transparent), and in short causes all Elements to cause neutral damage regardless of the other equipment being worn.  (Yes, I totally got this idea from Arena, but it's the only thing I could find that fit the basic idea of Cherche without just being a rehash of something else already done.)

I think that keeps Feather Mantle, Cherche, and a (modified) Float Boots all viable without them stepping on each other too badly.

[The Damned]

I guess that sounds fine, but I'm not philsov, so....

As for Float being akin to Jump +1, I believe it does since it's a simple +1 elevation (and Earth negation) and the BGM doesn't say otherwise.

[philsov]

So...uh, is Thief only getting Muddle as a new skill?

Currently, yes.  The problem with a mug-type ability is the glitch with formulas 1/2/5, and I can't think of much that is both unique and worthwhile.

So philsov is assuredly keeping Two Swords around?

Oh, certainly.  But I'm leaning more and more towards the monk <--> mage class swap and not having the new "monk" class have martial arts innate.

Besides, I gotta throw melee a bone

Hey phil I'm reposting my item list, updated

woot!  out of town atm so I can't delve into more serious things but I should absorb a majority of this into the fold.  Regarding the katana procs -- while your plan is basically the same thing, only cooler -- I just don't like the idea of faith-based % success procs in the hands of a melee-like class.  Maybe the older list had more, but if the only thing is Demi then I can probably nix it for ?Cleave? and we should be good.  Meanwhile, monster abilities are beyond the FF mark so they'll probably be subbed out for a similar human counter part (Comet, Water Ball, Titan, etc).

Have you done anything regarding this amount of supposed skillset space, philsov?

Oh, certainly.  Those skillsets are EXCELLENT for enemies, in that the AI will auto-learn all abilities without regard to JP cost which gives me complete and utter control of what abilities the enemy does and does not have, if I so choose.  For example, for easytype I crafted 4-ish skillsets for each major magic school and set the mages into one of them, chapter placement pending.  This prevents me from messing with AI % chance to learn and the ability list order to try and steer the herd.  This also enables me to have enemy blue mages with the main skillset learned but none of the unlockables without having to fumble with JP costs.  Plus a lot of DD-type funsies too.  The 1.3 chocomaster's skillset, for example, is just awesome.

Cherche

With initial:defend is a pretty good idea.  I agree they still need some sort of perk, but I don't think normal:all elements is exactly the answer.  I'll plod around some more though.

Float

Adds 1 height for all melee attacks and with regards to mobility (higher jumps are easier, and the ability to attack upwards/downwards is shifted).  They are counted at base height when subjected to all abilites.  Least, that's my personal understanding.  However, with float in mind I can make both Feather boots and this at least half/weak wind so its not a liability on the field.  Hell, I may just reshuffle the perfumes all together.  I may even sub out Float for innocent :3

[RavenOfRazgriz]

woot!  out of town atm so I can't delve into more serious things but I should absorb a majority of this into the fold.  Regarding the katana procs -- while your plan is basically the same thing, only cooler -- I just don't like the idea of faith-based % success procs in the hands of a melee-like class.  Maybe the older list had more, but if the only thing is Demi then I can probably nix it for ?Cleave? and we should be good.  Meanwhile, monster abilities are beyond the FF mark so they'll probably be subbed out for a similar human counter part (Comet, Water Ball, Titan, etc).

The faith based stuff was mostly Flare and Demi I think.  Might've been one or two others but they can be easily turned into Geomancy if I didn't do so already.

The monster skills, yeah, just make them into Geomancy or something if you don't want to shuffle them around.  I mostly used them because I didn't want things like Water Ball being used as a proc twice, heh.

The last set of updates was mostly what was posted in this thread, though.  I don't think I did much else.  I just like keeping an up to date document available.  Stuff like Flail/Axe WP and such hasn't been adjusted yet though since I can't be bothered to recalc it yet now that I realized I was an idiot with them originally.

With initial:defend is a pretty good idea.  I agree they still need some sort of perk, but I don't think normal:all elements is exactly the answer.  I'll plod around some more though.

Yeah, I wasn't sure on it either, but it's one of the few things the items so far DON'T do, so it seemed like a cool idea.

I may even sub out Float for innocent :3

Heh.  Uber-Reflect, but with less bouncing funsies and blocking more spells.  Could be cool.

[The Damned]

Currently, yes. The problem with a mug-type ability is the glitch with formulas 1/2/5, and I can't think of much that is both unique and worthwhile.

May I ask what type of glitch we're talking about?

Oh, certainly.  Those skillsets are EXCELLENT for enemies, in that the AI will auto-learn all abilities without regard to JP cost which gives me complete and utter control of what abilities the enemy does and does not have, if I so choose.  For example, for easytype I crafted 4-ish skillsets for each major magic school and set the mages into one of them, chapter placement pending.  This prevents me from messing with AI % chance to learn and the ability list order to try and steer the herd.  This also enables me to have enemy blue mages with the main skillset learned but none of the unlockables without having to fumble with JP costs.

Fair enough, I suppose.

However, I am not understanding why the enemy would auto-learn all abilities regardless of JP cost just because you gave them a dummy set.

[philsov]

May I ask what type of glitch we're talking about?

The glitch where repeatedly selecting the ability will make its predicted (and real) damage increase and increase when equipped with a gun, present with formulas 1, 2, and 5 (maybe more?  whatever does "weapon damage")

However, I am not understanding why the enemy would auto-learn all abilities regardless of JP cost just because you gave them a dummy set.

Hell if I know  I just know it works and its glorious.  Its probably some hardcoding introduced to enable Ultima and Zodiac to be learned by the bosses, especially Zodiac.  Since it's a part of the native summoner skillset, its JP has to be VERY high to prevent the AI from ever learning it by accident (disabling learn with JP is simply not an option with the AI).  Also, for whatever godawful reason, Zodiac only has a 90% chance to be learned when you do learn it through either JP (damn you, AI) or by getting smacked with it.  To make sure that Edi a) overcame the 90% and b) actually knew the 9999 JP ability, a HUGE chunk of skillsets were probably flagged as auto-learn and loljpcost.  

Pure speculation, of course.  I'm also the guy who thought that l-i-t-t-l-e m-o-n-e-y was a programmers joke and not the result of a misplaced {delay} command.

[formerdeathcorps]

It's present with all the weapon formulas.  The only way to turn it off is to unselect weapon strike, but then, you deal fist damage with a gun, dependent on brave.  That's what I did with mug (so it just deals a fist attack + steal gil).

[Timbo]

You know, maybe I'm crazy FDC but I couldn't your mug to proc to save my life.  It just refused to steal gil of any kind.

[formerdeathcorps]

It's only 25%.  I don't think I put additional constraints on steal gil (like equip sword or anything).

EDIT: Next time, please stay on topic and post complaints about my patch in my thread.

[Timbo]

I must of used it like 10 times, on your demo.  On a separate note is the gil stealing part of it hard coded to the Gil Taking slot, by chance?

[The Damned]

The glitch where repeatedly selecting the ability will make its predicted (and real) damage increase and increase when equipped with a gun, present with formulas 1, 2, and 5 (maybe more?  whatever does "weapon damage")

I suspected as much. This makes me want to test something else out.

Heh, I have like 30 things to test out now.

...Damn it.

To make sure that Edi a) overcame the 90% and b) actually knew the 9999 JP ability, a HUGE chunk of skillsets were probably flagged as auto-learn and loljpcost.

Some of them are still horribly redundant, though. (Pretty much all boss-related ones, the Use Hands and a couple of others.)

If it's not terribly troublesome, when you can get back to your computer, can you post a list of the ones that you know are flagged as auto-learn so far? It would be extremely useful, if only for those of us with Blue Mages. (I'm going to try to balance the Learn on Rate for most things first and see how that goes; it will probably go poorly but I would like to try.)

[philsov]

can you post a list of the ones that you know are flagged as auto-learn so far?

It starts at 33 and ends at AF, afaik.

[Pan]

Hi guys, long time no see.

Hey Philsov, have you released any version of this yet or is it still in testing? Blue mage, want <3

[Dokurider]

Nope, nothing released yet.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Hi guys, long time no see.

Hey Philsov, have you released any version of this yet or is it still in testing? Blue mage, want <3

The only "release" this has so far is a really old beta he gave to me and Sephirot24, IIRC.  It doesn't include any of the recent goodies like revamped Items, skillsets, Blue Mages, new Job Tree, etc. though, so it's really not worth passing around.

He'll probably have something out soon once he's worked out the kinks for Items and some Chapter 1 stuff.   That, and when he learns to use PPFStudio or whatever it is.  Heh.

[Eternal]

If an idiot like me can figure out PPFStudio, I'm sure Phil can. =P

[RavenOfRazgriz]

If an idiot like me can figure out PPFStudio, I'm sure Phil can. =P

You totally "figured it out", bro.  



Philsov, do you know how hard it is to implement the "Chocobo Knights" thing that Zodiac did a while back?  It seems like it would be really cool to implement in ASM'd for some enemies, especially in Chapter 3/4 and especially if you do that switch to make more monsters mountable.  There are a lot of times where you (or at least I) would EXPECT the enemy to be riding in by mount but they just kinda... walk in.

This also gives the people who don't generally do many random battles more of a taste of how powerful monsters can be while being a cool move in its own right.  Sure, Sweegy Woods / Araguay Woods / Zigolis Swap introduce you to some combination of Goblins / Bombs / Skeletons / Ghosts / Malboros, but after that I can't think of any other battles involving many monsters at all besides Finath River or some sidequest stuff.   Begin fight mounts also give you more ways of making enemies mobile besides jamming Move +2, high base move (if a Special class), or Move + gear on them and adds a layer of depth to fights.  From what I read of the topic on it, Zodiac made it sound like it was simple enough, but that was a while back.

It was just a thought I had that could be really cool to implement since it flows perfectly with other implemented or suggested changes.

[Eternal]

I swear, Raven, one patch goes wrong. ONE PATCH. And you jump on me about it. =P