FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[philsov]

sure.  I can throw it toward the mediator pool of Br/Fa modification.

Another snag with the new hopeful counter tackle.  The steal weapon effect (and break weapon, for that matter) are hardcoded to their ability slots.  Until I can find and possibly change which ability counter tackle enables, counter tackle will be counter secret fist.  Conversely secret fist will also get increased up to 2 vert tol.  

Also!  Finally worked out the new growth numbers!  They got normalized slightly. Everyone shares the same speed growth rates.

In general:  Fighters get higher PA, HP.  Mages get higher MA, MP growth.   The resulting gap is roughly the same as the male/female gap, so a male caster and female fighter will result in about the same PA/MA/HP/MP.

Armored Fighters have increased HP over their clothy breatheren, at the expense of 1 PA point at 99.  Status mages (Oracle, Time Mage, Priest) have increased MP over their blasty brothers (Wizards, Summoners, Sages, Mediators, Bards) at the expense of 1 MA at 99.  Squires and chemists are the halfway points between the armored/clothed and status/blasters, respectively.  Mimes are the best of all worlds.  Regarding specials:

Ramza, Reis: Mime
Agrias, TG Cid, Beo:  Armored fighter
Musty, Malak, Cloud: Cloth fighter
Rafa: Blaster
Byblos, Worker 8: unique table

Below is a stat table.  Note the values are for with 100-110 multipliers, so for classes with larger multipliers, the gaps may be more pronounced.

[Zaen]

Why are Mediators considered Blast? They're Status. The only thing they get to make them "Blasty" would be Guns. Bards are more Status, as well. I mean, they're like a Priest and a Time Mage combined.

[philsov]

it's more from a practical angle; they don't use MP.  And I don't want to create too many subclasses.

[Sephirot24]

That's freaking great phil!! No heavy growth punishment, but still some reward for changing between a specific tree along the way. No speed punishment, sweet

[iopyud]

Speaking of Worker 8, is he getting a boost?

I really love him but I heard that he sucks in 1.3...

"I. AM. VERY. STRONG!"

[philsov]

he can.  

hmmm...

a little more HP, move HP-up and no longer immune to haste/regen/protect/shell/reraise?  Move HP-up is the big one, he should be able to Dispose all the live long day.

[philsov]

GODDAMN MOTHWERWER@#$@#$%@#%^@ RFWF

The potion % heal ASM hack crashes in epsxe -_-.  

So... back to the drawing board.  

I've just spent the past hour+ changing values in SCUS trying to even locate the reaction ability cluster.  I really think the stuff I'm looking for it there and not battle.bin.  Still, there's got to be a better way to do this instead of carpet bomb a section with find -> replace and hope the thing you're looking for changes -- without crashing the game in the process.  Because the status-inflict reactions of Regenerator, Caution, Dragon Spirit, and Sunken State could all use some lovin imo.  Alas.

But in the meantime and in case it never gets found, what can we do with auto-potion?  The standard healing potions can easily shift over to other item slots.  So... once again looking for ideas with auto-potion.  The item used for AP doesn't even need to be otherwise accessible to the Item skilset.  

- 20% self heal
- auto Protect
- auto Shell
- auto Haste + Berserk

comments/suggestions?

[Sephirot24]

- 30% self heal ('cmon! Damage split is 50% slef heal + damage to the enemy)
Auto Protect or Auto Shell are good too. While Auto-Haste+Berserk sounds good IMO, it'd be best to replace AP with some ability that achieves the same goal, which is protecting / healing the user.

[SolidSnakeDog]

Haste+Bersserk
This is bad. I myself will never use it.
Berserk lasts forever but not haste, so this will hurt the player more that anything.

[philsov]

yeah, we'll go with the 20% self heal.

Now... to wade through the ENTD and remove/fix everything that needs too

[Sephirot24]

When you say 20% you mean 20% of the damage received or 20% of max HP? If it's max HP then it's ok... though it'll be super weak on early levels.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

a little more HP, move HP-up and no longer immune to haste/regen/protect/shell/reraise?  Move HP-up is the big one, he should be able to Dispose all the live long day.

Keep him Immune to everything.  You can theoretically justify Haste / Protect / Shell if they're added using non-Faith abilities, but then you'd also need to make him at least vulnerable to Slow, probably a couple other random things for logical consistency.

Move-HP UP maybe, iirc he has Defense UP already.  You could give him Item secondary and / or Fly the way the enemy Steel Giants have it (at least in regular 1.3).

Hell, I've always thought Worker 8 should mirror the Steel Giants you fight against in 1.3 in the first place because of how relatively weak he is compared to Humans or even straight monsters combined with Monster Skill.  So in the scope of this game, that'd be... Item Secondary, Fly, Defense UP, but no Move-HP UP (and in the scope of what this hack wants to do, no Move +X)?  Item secondary and Fly combined with lowered Speed and Move ranges on all the other units in the game (thus lowering how damaging being immune to Haste is) should make him pretty damn useful, I would think.

As for Auto-Potion... IDK.  20-25% Self-heal seems best for right now, I suppose.

[iopyud]

Sounds great.

Worker 8 should still be immune to magic/buffs/debuffs, but how about giving him innate Protect/Shell OR Haste OR Regen?
Might sound over powered but it's to compensate for his lack of job changing abilities. (He's not flexible so he better be a damn powerful tank).

BTW, shouldn't Hell Knight get more MA? Unless it's more of a physical class...
Heaven Knight on the other hand should have innate 2 Hands like its counterpart.
Hey, I mean their skills are random fuckage.

20% Auto Heal... Sounds good.
1.) It's not as easy to gang up on enemies anymore thanks to reduced move speed.
2.) It no longer negates damage but still reduces them.
3.) Use kickass animation where the user jumps on everyone on the map.

On movement, are you taking out Move + 2 and 3?
I have Move + 3 on my chars, it covers almost half of them damn map.

Finally, later on we should have quirky enemy set ups that doesn't do 400 x 2 Riovanes Hell Knight damage but makes you go "lol wtf AI = 1, me = 0.".
Like... maybe Secret Fist on Algus.

Algus: OMFG U R WEPN BRAEK?!1 ATATATATA.... you are already dead.

EDIT: You know, if Dispose... or that Homing Laser thing still have that great range in this reduced movement patch, maybe... just maybe, giving Worker 8 an extra speed point and increasing its power will be a good buff.

And @Raven about Worker 8 mirroring other Steel Giants. NO. Worker 8 should be more powerful. He's Worker Fucking 8. STEEL GIANT. STEEL FUCKING GIANT.

Dude HE.AM.VERY.STRONG.

Heck his abilities should have freakin' quotes on them.

Drill: "Genuflect before the drill that pierced the heavens."

Dispose (That shoot thing) :"Executing Overlord Ramza's order. Targeting with extreme prejuduce."

That Hammer Thing: "Return to the light."

[RavenOfRazgriz]

EDIT: You know, if Dispose... or that Homing Laser thing still have that great range in this reduced movement patch, maybe... just maybe, giving Worker 8 an extra speed point and increasing its power will be a good buff.

And @Raven about Worker 8 mirroring other Steel Giants. NO. Worker 8 should be more powerful. He's Worker Fucking 8. STEEL GIANT. STEEL FUCKING GIANT.

Dude HE.AM.VERY.STRONG.

Philsov wants things SLOWER.  Not FASTER.  Everything else became SLOWER.  So Worker 8's Speed is better relatively, unless Philsov lowered his speed as well.

Also, go fight some 1.3 Steel Giants.  THEY. AM. VERY. STRONG.

Plus, Worker 8 is just an android like every other android.  There's really nothing special about him when compared to Worker 7 or any of the random encounter Steel Giants.  Absolutely nothing, besides the fact he joins your side instead of nuking your medieval ass with lazorzes.  THEY. ALL. AM. VERY. STRONG. THEY. ALL. AM. SAME. MODEL.

Machines don't get randomly more powerful because they join your team.  Nor do they get randomly far shittier.  Hence why all the Steel Giants in 1.3 (and in here) should be the same, imo.  They're all the exact same model of the exact same machine, aged for (relatively) the same amount of time.

[iopyud]

You break my dreams and heart. </3

Robot needs love... just because they think it doesn't have a heart... doesn't mean he can't love.

Jokes aside:
I acknowledge your point about the Workers being identical should perform the same, but that aside...

What about my theory about Dispose's range? He should be able to get a few strong shots even without increased speed before things get close. Kinda like artillery support.

EDIT:

Hold on.

20% Heal is just 80 on a 400 HP unit. (Hi Potion lol)
25% like stated would heal 100. (OK, sounds good)

On the other hand. My mages ATM have like 300 HP so that's...
60 HP for 20% and 75 HP for 25%.

I vote for 25% if it's possible.

[philsov]

When you say 20% you mean 20% of the damage received or 20% of max HP? If it's max HP then it's ok... though it'll be super weak on early levels.

20% max HP.  Since the %potion ASM hack crashes the game, and the author is regretably long gone, "potion" is simply assuming the old Wish formula -- heal target for 40% of your max health, deal 20% max health back to yourself.  Since it applies to auto-potion, the net effect is a 20% base heal whenever you get take damage.  I'm calling it First Aid (?) and doing some lame coverup in its description on why it hurts the person immediately after healing them.  So it can't be 30% or 25%.  It's stuck at 20.

Normal potion/hipot/xpot are now in the slots of the old antidote/eye drop/echo grass, complete with their old graphic and old 30/70/150 healing scheme.  Once in game no one can tell the difference, save the new ability that replaces auto-potion and heals the user for 40% and then hurts them for 20%.

Keep him Immune to everything. You can theoretically justify Haste / Protect / Shell if they're added using non-Faith abilities, but then you'd also need to make him at least vulnerable to Slow, probably a couple other random things for logical consistency.

Draw Out and Sing for starters, but understood.  I'll make him immune to less as well.

Move-HP UP maybe, iirc he has Defense UP already. You could give him Item secondary and / or Fly the way the enemy Steel Giants have it (at least in regular 1.3).

He's not getting any secondary.  Giving enemy monster-types a full working secondary via ENTD is fine.  I considered Fly too, maybe I'll just go with that.

but how about giving him innate Protect/Shell OR Haste OR Regen?

He already has a massive health pool and def up, neither protect nor shell innate is necessary.  Haste is quite unfitting.  Regen... almost solves the same issue Move HP does, only stronger.  

On movement, are you taking out Move + 2 and 3?
I have Move + 3 on my chars, it covers almost half of them damn map

3, yes.  2 is getting shifted over to bards and dancers.  And all classes are losing 1 movement.  

BTW, shouldn't Hell Knight get more MA? Unless it's more of a physical class...

With untruth hitting up to 10 times and AoE getting buffed by proxy, he's fine.

Heaven Knight on the other hand should have innate 2 Hands like its counterpart.

no, she shouldn't .

So Worker 8's Speed is better relatively, unless Philsov lowered his speed as well.

Worker 8's speed was never poor in the first place.  He hit 13 speed at 99, which is something only a thief-leveled generic can pull off.  It keeps up the same pace, as do most monsters, in that they usually have 1 speed more than your 100 SPM unit without any speed gear, because odds are they are going to have on a piece and the boost compensates for that.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Draw Out and Sing for starters, but understood.  I'll make him immune to less as well.

So, vulnerable to Haste / Protect / Shell, Blind / Slow... Don't Move / Don't Act?  IDK on the last two, since it depends how one thinks the statuses are inflicted by non-magic on a flavor level.  You could theoretically say Snipe hit a joint and Worker 8's repairing himself while the status is up, which I guess could also let him be vulnerable to Regen.

Reraise is a reinsertion of the soul into the corpse from what I can see (like Raise), so I don't think letting him be Reraised makes sense.  Then again, Items working on him doesn't make much sense either.

He's not getting any secondary.  Giving enemy monster-types a full working secondary via ENTD is fine.  I considered Fly too, maybe I'll just go with that.

Why not?  Item Secondary + Fly on 2 Move and a Speed that'll generally be slower than human counterparts doesn't seem broken, really.  Sure, that means Worker 8 could Elixir or X-Potion himself, but that's not much different from compensating Dispose with Move-HP UP.

Or is saying no a problem with actually adding the secondary?

Odd idea:  Item Secondary, Fly, 2 Move, vulnerable to Haste / Regen / Protect / Shell / Defend Status (lol) / Blind / Slow / Don't Move / Don't Act, immune to all other statuses and Items so that he can't randomly Elixir himself.  Maybe give him both Fly and Move-HP UP to compensate for immunity to both Healing Magic and Items.

If that's possible.  I think that'd be kinda pimp.

EDIT: Saw Voldemort's post below me.  Nix Move-HP UP from above suggestion because Energy and altered Speed values are enough for self-healing, imo.

Worker 8's speed was never poor in the first place.  He hit 13 speed at 99, which is something only a thief-leveled generic can pull off.  It keeps up the same pace, as do most monsters, in that they usually have 1 speed more than your 100 SPM unit without any speed gear, because odds are they are going to have on a piece and the boost compensates for that.

Note 'relatively'.  That means I was actually counting Speed-boosting gear, Setiemson / Excalibur, etc, because its always your final product that matters when you decide what unit to use, not just raw stats.

Because of Speed boosting and Auto-Haste, Worker 8 is relatively slower than the humans a player can have access to end-game.  Lowered Speed +X values and lowered base Speeds make Worker 8's raw speed have a far better chance to compete, as base speed means more and Haste means less because it has smaller numbers to multiply in terms of "Do I use Worker 8 or 5 obscene speed Auto-Haste guys?".

Since we're talking more like, 10 vs 14 here instead of 13 vs 20-25 (sometimes more) after factoring in Auto-Haste potential and equipment.  Which was what I was referring to in the first place.  Not *just* his base Speed vs base human Speed.

[Archael]

guys remember worker 8 can go from critical to 100% HP using Energy

he's the perfect unit to send in to deal as much damage as possible and get in the enemies face, because if he gets a turn while critical he can keep himself alive indefinitely

and 13 speed at lvl 99 is not slow, like philsov said

also immune to most forms of magic and status as well

I begin to think a lot of the people saying Worker 8 is the worst special haven't used him alot in 1.3


(btw in 1.3 Holy Dragon Reis can be worth keeping in Holy Dragon form.. has anyone seen her breath damage and innates? :O)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

and 13 speed at lvl 99 is not slow, like philsov said

Read my above post on explanation on the use of the word 'relatively'.

Unless you're talking to the iopyud kid thar.

EDIT: STOP EDITING YOUR DAMN POST IT MAKES REPLYING RETARDED.

Thank you. ^_^

[Archael]

if by "relatively slow" you mean "relative to setiemson humans with thief hats" then yes, he's slow

so what? alot of things are