Elemental affinities

[Skip Sandwich]

i'm not quite sure if this is the right place to put this, but its a close as anything I guess.

anyway, one thing that's always bothered be about Tactics is that they use a sorta hybrid elemental system, as opposed to the traditional mirror system or a Rock-Paper-Scissor system.  For example, things of the fire element are weak to water, but resistant to ice, but the Ice Shield is weak against thunder, when every other ice element is weak to fire.

I would have preferred if they had just stuck with one system, like one of the following
Vannila FFT system (for comparison)
Thunder>Water>Fire>Ice>?
Thunder>Ice>?
Ice>Goblin?
Wind>?
Earth>?
Holy<-->Dark

Traditional FF system
Fire <--> Ice
Thunder <--> Water
Wind <--> Earth
Holy <--> Dark

RPS system with FF elements
Ice>Wind>Earth>Thunder>Water>Fire>Ice
Holy <--> Dark

also, some monsters have completly random elemental weaknesses, like WTF are goblins weak agaisnt ice or panthers weak against earth?

When i'm messing around with making patches, I tend to use two standards of determining what a monster's elemental atributes should be
1) Elemental affinity and strength
2) monster type

Affinities

Minor Fire: Half Fire, Weak Water
Fire: Immune Fire, Half Ice, Weak Water
Major Fire: Absorb Fire, Immune Ice, Half Wind, Weak Water

Minor Ice: Half Ice, Weak Fire
Ice: Immune Ice, Half Wind, Weak Fire
Major Ice: Absorb Ice, Immune Wind, Half Earth, Weak Fire

Minor Thunder: Half Thunder, Weak Earth
Thunder: Immune Thunder, Half Water, Weak Earth
Major Thunder: Absorb Thunder, Immune Water, Half Fire, Weak Earth

Minor Wind: Half Wind, Weak Ice
Wind: Immune Wind, Half Earth, Weak Ice
Major Wind: Absorb Wind, Immune Earth, Half Thunder, Weak Ice

Minor Earth: half Earth, Weak Wind
Earth: Immune Earth, Half Thunder, Weak Wind
Major Earth: Absorb Earth, Immune Thunder, Half Water, Weak Wind

Minor Holy: Half Holy, Weak Dark
Holy: Immune Holy, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Water/Earth, Weak Dark
Major Holy: Absorb Holy, Immune Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Water/Earth, Weak Dark

Minor Dark: Half Dark, Weak Holy
Dark: Immune Dark, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Water/Earth, Weak Holy
Major Dark: Absorb Dark, Immune Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Water/Earth, Weak Holy

Monster type examples
monsters may be of multiple types
Flamable: Weak Fire, Half Thunder
Aquatic: Immune Water, Weak Thunder
Flying: Weak Wind, Immune Earth
Earth: Immune Thunder, Half Fire/Ice
Machine: Weak Thunder and/or Water, Half Fire/Ice
Undead: Absorb Dark, Half Ice/Thunder, Weak Holy

well, that's all I have to say, I went from ranting about elementals to outlining both a new elemental system and a set of guidlines to staying consistant with the system, go figure.

[Vanya]

Traditional FF system
Fire <--> Ice
Thunder <--> Water
Wind <--> Earth
Holy <--> Dark

That's not quite what I'd call the Traditional FF system.  It's more like the FFX system plus wind & earth. The elemental weaknesses throughout the FF don't ever really conform to a coherent system, and they vary widely from game to game on top of that.

As for monsters most games have species attributes, but when absent a type of monster will simply be given an elemental weakness. But even this has no uniform execution throughout the series.

[Skip Sandwich]

Okay, it may not be 'traditional' but for the most part, it tends to follow that trend, of elements opposing each other rather then flowing from one to the next. And in other FF's, however they do it, they at least stay consistant with it, whereas in Tactics, its all mixed up, and that's where my problem is, mostly because I like editing and tweeking monsters above other aspects of patching, and its annoying to not have a consistant elemental system to follow.

[Dormin Jake]

I'm a big fan of this kind of creative discussion, so thanks for posting this.  I already did a pretty hefty elemental revamp to my own patch, but in reading this I'm realizing I've still got some kinks to iron out, so this is inspiring me to do yet another overhaul.

I keep finding reasons to avoid editing my poor ENDT: research paper, another research paper, graduation errands, now elementals!

You're missing a breakdown of the water elemental though, I'm guessing you had this in mind?:

Minor Water: Half Water, Weak Thunder
Water: Immune Water, Half Fire, Weak Thunder
Major Water: Absorb Water, Immune Fire, Half Ice, Weak Thunder

Also: you're Holy and Dark elementals seem awfully strong.  What about:

Minor Holy: Half Holy, Weak Dark
Holy: Immune Holy, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder, Weak Dark
Major Holy: Absorb Holy, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Earth/Water, Weak Dark

Minor Dark: Half Dark, Weak Holy
Dark: Immune Dark, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder, Weak Holy
Major Dark: Absorb Dark, Half Fire/Ice/Thunder/Wind/Earth/Water, Weak Holy

They're both more widely protected than the other elements, but without being immune to nearly everything.  I say this as a concerned Black Mage.

[Skip Sandwich]

thanks on catching that I missed one, and yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind
Anyway, Holy and Dark are supposed to be the "ultimate" elements, representing an entierly seperate tier of power. As such, those rare few creatures that actually possess those elements should be ungodly strong. Of all the creatures in Tactics, only lucavi level creatures could possibly possess Major Holy or Dark elements, and of all the lucavi, only two do, The Holy Angel and Arch Angel forms of Altima.

Fire Signs- Aries, Leo, Sagitarious
Earth Signs- Taurus, Capricorn, Virgo
Wind/Thunder Signs- Gemini, Libra, Aquarius
Water/Ice Signs- Pisces, Cancer, Scorpio

the various lucavi would have elemental affinities somewhat like this

Queklain-Major Water, also Half Holy (priest he was, though a fallen one even before his transformation)
Velius- Major Fire, also Half Earth
Zalera- Major Wind
Adramelk-Major Earth, plus Half Fire
Hasmalum-Major Fire, also Half Holy
Holy Angel Altima- Major Holy
Arch Angel Altima- Major Dark, no weaknesses

Other Bosses
Miluda- nothing
Wiglaf- Moderate Earth
Algus- nothing
Gafgarion- Moderate Dark *just because Gaf's a baddass*
Zalmo- Moderate Holy *just to make him more of a pain in the ass*
Izlude- Moderate Thunder
Malak- nothing, same with Rafa
Celia- Moderate Earth plus Immune Dark
Lede- Moderate Fire plus Immune Dark
Elmdor- Moderate Wind
Meliadol- nothing
Balk- Moderate Fire
Dycedarg- Moderate Ice
Rofel- Moderate Earth
Kletian- Moderate Thunder
Vormav- Moderate Fire
Zalbag- Moderate Water
Eldibs- Immune All, Only the most powerful magic (Meteor/Flare/Ultima) can possibly harm him.

whew!

But yeah, dispite the overwhelming number of virgos in the plot, I managed to somehow represent every single element in a boss fight at some point. I'm going to take a break now.

[Gamesoul Master]

Very nice work and theory. This game, as much as I love it, certainly has one of the worst elemental systems I've ever seen in a game. And after the couple hundred RPG's I've played in my time, that's pretty bad. The fact of many monsters having random elemental attributes is completely ridiculous. The main consistancy that just about every other FF game (and RPG in general) has is that at least the monsters usually have a logical elemental strength/weakness setup (not always of course, but *usually*).

I agree with Skip Sandwich on the Major Dark/Holy setups. For the very rare enemies in the game that would actually have those attributes, they will be deserving of it, and I think it'd add a nice challenge to make all elemental moves except holy useless. Sort-of makes sense if you think about it (think about all those games and movies where you can only hit the bad-ass boss with their weakness and nothing else works). And the Moderate Dark/Holy setups... even those should be fairly rare, so halving all the worldly elements isn't so bad. Of course, the final product is up to whoever implements a better system like this in their patch, but for a patch that's at least decently challenging, I would imagine the original setup for the Dark/Holy modifier tiers are the better option.

It definitely makes me wanna go through my whole patch and modify the whole thing to use this kind of system (I already didn't like the system already in place, but it just never occurred to me to change it... lol).

[Skip Sandwich]

Another thing that makes the uber elemental risistance not comepletly overpowered is the fact that black mages get flare, which is non-elemental, though its usually overshadowed by the faster, more powerful and cheaper Holy. but yeah, aside from lucavi creatures and pure elementals or powerful creatures like dragons, there should be no way to have more then moderate elemental affinity to any element. So, here are some revised elemental affinities for all the monsters in the game, going by my revised elemental tree.
*note* changes are based on vannila monsters, if you change monsters for your patch, you'll likely need to change these around as well
Goblins- Minor Earth
Panthers- none
Bombs- Major Fire
Skeletons- Absorb Dark, Immune Ice, Half Thunder, Weak Holy
Ghosts- Absorb Dark, Immune Ice, Half Wind, Weak Holy
Juravis/Steel Hawk- Moderate Wind
Cockatrice- Moderate Earth
Ahrimen- Moderate Thunder
Bull Demon/Minatarous- Moderate Earth
Sacred- Major Earth
Woodmen- Major Earth, but Weak to Fire instead of Wind, they also Absorb Water and Half Holy
Pisco Demons- Moderate Water
Chocobos- nothing
Morbols- Absorb Water, Half Dark
Behemoths-nothing
King Behemoth- Moderate Holy
Dark Behemoth- Moderate Dark
Dragon- Immune Fire
Blue Dragon- Major Ice, but Immune Fire and Weak to Thunder
Red Dragon- Major Thunder, but Weak to ice and Immune to Fire
Hydra- nothing
Hyuda- Half Fire/Ice/Thunder
Tiamat- Absorb Fire/Ice/Thunder
*Reis (Holy Dragon)- Moderate Holy
Archaic Demon- Moderate Dark
Ultima Demon- Moderate Dark
Apanda- Moderate Dark

i think that's all of them, lemme know if I missed any

[LastingDawn]

...mind if I use this for Mercenaries? These are some very nice ideas here!

[Skip Sandwich]

go right ahead, I based them off of vanilla monster stats and abilities, but my pattern is already outlined above if you want to do any tweeking and stay consistant

[Skip Sandwich]

Heres another elemental system I thought up when I was playing around with replacing magic with psionics. I never really went anywhere with it, but it was a pretty interesting exercise anway. The main point is that earth and wind combine into a single element called 'Force' that represents things like telekinesis and other 'physical' effects brought about via magic (or in this case, psionics). Both the earth and wind element still exist in order to account for things like earthquakes and pit traps, and so as to not make the float status worthless, but both elements now affect other elements in the same way. One of the more interesting things about the patch was that I flagged every single weapon as being wind element, or wind and another element, so that it was possible to make characters and mosnters that were resistant to physical attacks, and some that were extremely resistant (Half wind/earth + Defense Up/Magic Defense Up) or even immune to physical attacks entierly.

Fire <--> Ice

Earth <--> Thunder

Wind <--> Thunder

Water = n/a

Holy <--> Dark

[Archael]

Seems like quite the "D&D Nerd OCD Necessity to classify everything under a particular Element" Syndrome you got going on, friend.

I'd get that checked out.

[Skip Sandwich]

D&D elements suck though, I mean, Fire, Cold, Electricity, Sonic and Acid. And almost nothing in D&D actually has an elemental affinity, in fact, only two types of elemental affinity actually exist in the whole of D&D, Fire subtype and Cold subtype, (there are Air subtype and Earth subtype as well but they don't modify the creatures elemental affinity). And the only element you ever really want to be using is Sonic cause it deals full damage to objects and is resisted by a grand total of nothing except for perhaps a very obscure creature from an even more obscure sourcebook.

And its not so much a need to classify everything, but that I prefer my elemental systems to be built on consistant rules and the whole system to be nicely symetrical and balanced within itself. I can handle all sorts of variations in the execution of the rules so long as there is a recognizable system in place.

[Archael]

It was a joke... I have no clue how D&D elements work, I've never even played D&D. I just throw it around as a generic insult to people who classify fantasy things with generic types commonly found in fantasy settings.

With that said, not everything needs a perfectly balanced mathematical system to be worth a damn.

You can give every 'good' unit half:holy and every "evil" guy half: dark, or you can give everyone elements for no apparent reason other than to just give it a damn element to force-fit the system.

Example:

Other Bosses
Miluda- nothing
Wiglaf- Moderate Earth
Algus- nothing
Gafgarion- Moderate Dark *just because Gaf's a baddass*
Zalmo- Moderate Holy *just to make him more of a pain in the ass*
Izlude- Moderate Thunder
Malak- nothing, same with Rafa
Celia- Moderate Earth plus Immune Dark
Lede- Moderate Fire plus Immune Dark
Elmdor- Moderate Wind
Meliadol- nothing
Balk- Moderate Fire
Dycedarg- Moderate Ice
Rofel- Moderate Earth
Kletian- Moderate Thunder
Vormav- Moderate Fire
Zalbag- Moderate Water
Eldibs- Immune All, Only the most powerful magic (Meteor/Flare/Ultima) can possibly harm him.


^ Alot of those don't make any more sense than the original "WTF, GOBLIN WEAK TO ICE?? WHY??" complaint you started the thread with...

also, some monsters have completly random elemental weaknesses, like WTF are goblins weak agaisnt ice or panthers weak against earth?

Now I say to you, WTF? Why the fuck is Zalbag "Moderate Water"? Why the FUCK is Rofel "Moderate Earth"?

And you can give me whatever explanation you desire, but then we can just tell you that Panthers were weak to earth because they are agile cat creatures whose balance and stability depends on the terrain they are on. Spells which affect the earth they stand on might mess them up.

Goblins can be weak to ice because they dislike the cold.

Both of those pretend, made up reasons would be just as valid as saying "Dycedarg - Moderate Ice!!!! Because he likes cold temperatures!!!!"

I called it D&D OCD because alot of these proposed element attributes for characters, bosses, and even some of the monsters seem to be just as, if not more, "Put an Element on it for the hell of it" than what we have in vanilla.

In some ways, some things having the odd elemental attribute to them (even if there is no logical reasoning behind it) just adds flavor and variety to the types of spells you would and would not use against them.

It wasn't meant to be a comprehensive battle mechanic system that is integral to gameplay, just meant to add variety through spell-types, elemental boosting and absorbing, and elemental items.

It'd be nice to have a better damage system in place, I agree with the idea. But perhaps naming it elements isn't the best way to do it if you are trying to make sense of things.

[The Damned]

Now I say to you, WTF? Why the fuck is Zalbag "Moderate Water"? Why the FUCK is Rofel "Moderate Earth"?

I believe he's basing in it on the Zodiac signs for reasons he espoused in the fifth post:

Fire Signs- Aries, Leo, Sagitarious
Earth Signs- Taurus, Capricorn, Virgo
Wind/Thunder Signs- Gemini, Libra, Aquarius
Water/Ice Signs- Pisces, Cancer, Scorpio

That said, not I'm saying I agree with a lot of those, but I can see where the reasoning comes from for the most part.

I've kept an eye on this thread because I do agree that there should be something of a consistent system, but I've actually tried to further FFT's "indidivual system" while also going off of (pseud) logic.

That said, I've yet to compare my Elemental monster changes with yours, Skip Sandwich, so perhaps we came up with the same thing.

I have been meaning to ask you a few things, though:

• Outside of "OMG It's a Boss!?!", how are you deciding whether something is Minor or Moderate or Major? I'm asking primarily because I saw that you haven't labeled anything as Minor outside of Goblins.
• I don't really see why something Flammable halves Lightning instead of being weak to it. I mean, Lightning is really freaking hot.
• I'm also not really understanding why an Earth type halves Ice/Fire unless you mean made out of Earth.
• Aquatic should probably have some type of relation to Fire and Ice, but that may just be my bias on aquatic things kicking ass, especially if they're amphibous.

I think that's it for now outside of Ice being stronger than Wind, but I guess something needs to be weak to Ice.

[Skip Sandwich]

1. That list of boss affinities was basicly just arbitary based on the afore mentioned guidelines, as an example means of assinging elemental affinities. Basicly, normal, non-magical and non-elemental beings are assigned elements based on thier creature atributes, where as spiriturally/magically potent beings such as elementals, dragons, and the majority of the the boss characters, are assigned elemental affinity based on thier nature/zodiac alignment, with a special bias taken to make sure that every element was represented at least once.

2. wood is not a good conductor, so it makes little sense to me for it to be especially reactive to electricity, especially magical lightning, which as far as we know may behave very little like natural lightning.

3. you had it right, as in made out of earth/stone

4. basicly, all of those creature atributes are again, just samples, and intended to be mixed and matched

[Archael]

One of your shorter, more concise posts, The Damned. Today is a good day.

[The Damned]

Oh, so by flammable you meant Wooden. In that case I Wood agree, but I took Flammable as to be "covered in Oil or something that combusts". In that case I maintain that it would be weak to Lightning. You might want to change "Flammable" to "Wooden", but since it's very minor point....

One of your shorter, more concise posts, The Damned. Today is a good day.

Please don't get used to it. You are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[DarkOmega]

Ice>Wind>Earth>Thunder>Water>Fire>Ice

^I think Ice and Wind should be switched. My logic?

In relation to Earth: Earth, at least to me, symbolizes things like plants, and life, as well as terrain. Plants don't usually mesh too well with ice, and other forms of life usually find the cold to be uncomfortable as well. Whereas I can't seem to think of a reason why Earth would be weak to Wind.

In relation to Fire: Wind fans Fire, making Fire grow larger. I realize that seems opposed, but I believe Wind has a greater weakness. Fire needs air to survive, and when Wind is mixed with Fire, all you get is a bigger Fire. Granted, with Fire melting Ice, I can understand your order on this particular note, but all the same, I think it fits better otherwise.

In relation to each other: Wind is weak to Ice in what way? If anything, Wind helps *make* Ice by reducing temperature, even if hot and cold air is what initially creates Wind. However, Wind shouldn't always be a cold attribute, because it can also bring warmth. There are warm air currents in the Wind too, which adds to why Ice should be weak to it. Also, Wind can wear Ice down over time, and in great amounts.

>.> I woke up about 20 minutes ago, so if any of this just seems dumb, dismiss it as  the vagaries of a tired man. Feedback? Flames?

[VincentCraven]

Well, what has been posted tastes more like the traditional element interaction found in games.

Fire and Water opposed

Earth and Wind opposed

Though I'd have to say that since it's not arranged traditionally, as in Earth being effective against Wind and vice versa, your idea makes more sense.  Nothing is blatantly wrong with the previous arrangement, so I'm not sure if it matters that much.

[DarkOmega]

XD Truth. I suppose I was just putting out for posterity's sake then, since I don't see that it needs to change, rather that it just made more sense to me, even if it already did make sense to begin with.