FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[RavenOfRazgriz]

FFMaster called me out so I guess I'm gonna have to reply to this shit.  Goddamnit.  I swear to fucking god, learn some vocabulary.  I don't mind long posts, but posts that are long because people couldn't be bothered to be concise irk me.

You'll have to talk to me about making a Spreadsheet on how the fuck the thing works, but it should be pretty easy.  I can make one entry and copy/paste like a champion to get it going most likely.


I'll reply to other shit bottom-up:

Element Bows and +2 MA: If you don't have anything better to do don't remove it.  It's incentive to run your Archer with a magical secondary because their base MA is abysmal and, unlike most physical units, have no Rune Blade or equivalent item to compensate.  Think of them as Elemental Rune Blades.

The Damned's vicious mauling of my Clothing changes works, I guess.  The main reason that list puts Golden Harpin at 60 HP is because it essentially grants +3 or more of to BOTH PA/MA for relevant units along with +30 MP.  70/30 with just STR: Elem should be fine though.

Dokurider, you seem to not understand how the Axe formula in Arena works.  You don't hit for half its damage half of the time.  The BASE damage is PA*12, then it goes in either direction by 50%.  You're going to hit for under PA*12 half the time, but it's very very rare that you hit for the bottom-value PA*6, especially with high-PA units.  It randomizes the PA value, so units with bigger PA stacks are less likely to deal minimum damage.  (Also less likely to deal maximum, but this swings for PA*12 and is compatible with Two Hands with 30% EVD, you can kill things adequately with far lower than maximum damage.)  A good Slasher-bot can oneshot basically anything, but it is kind of redundant having it and Battle Axe in the same weapon set.  Your change actually makes Slasher WORSE by making it even less reliable.  PA*8 base damage is horrifically bad, and 50% on another PA*8... math the two together, and your average base damage is PA*12.  If you get incredibly lucky you can deal a shitton of damage, but a max-damage Slasher already oneshots basically everything so that doesn't mean shit.  Basically, you took a mediocre weapon and through a lack of understanding the random permutations made it even more random without actually increasing its expected base damage at all.

Re: The people who want to change Wizard Staff - You're forgetting something very important.  It's a clone of Wizard Rod but it's used by different classes.  The only classes that overlap both weapons are Summoner and Scholar.  Changing Wizard Rod means that notably Priests and Time Mages lose a strong +2 MA option.  Their only other means of getting +2 MA is the much weaker C Bag, which gives these units no offensive functionality whatsoever.  Not only that, but you want to change it to a +1 Speed item for Draw Out primary users who don't need a functional Attack command in most cases... which they can already receive from H Bag, whose drawback they can ignore since their primary offense is Draw Out itself, as noted before.  Sense, this makes none.  Please hang up and try again.

Healing Staff gaining Boost: Dark would actually work pretty well, but you'd better rename that shit into a Chaos Staff or something for it to make sense.  Giving Rainbow Staff Immune: Oil and second-highest WP behind Healing Staff is fine and dandy too.

Why are we being dumb and removing Strengthen: Lightning from Mace of Zeus NOW, when that's endured and not been a problem for around 10 updates and alternates to it have only gotten stronger?  It's a "bloated" weapon to be sure, but Arena doesn't have too many of them and a few here and there are fine for variety.

Silence indeed stops their ability to Mime a skill suppressed by Silence.  However, I don't see this as an issue as a team with Silence-weakness either runs a means to heal it or is okay with accepting a potential loss to Silence anyway.  Mimes are immune to the majority of the pain-in-the-ass statuses that suppress their Miming, they need some kind of non-damage based weaknesses such as the "lesser" status of Don't Act / Silence / Blind / etc. to keep them in check against teams not based on dealing 100,000 damage a turn, which was one of their problems back in 1.30 Arena - they were immune to all status and any low-damage team auto-lost to Mime teams.  Give them too many advantages and we'll be going back to feeding people Mime teams on a plate because they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves, as Mimes are already incredible in the correct circumstances.

Flare, lower MP cost, blah blah blah.

If there's anything in particular I forgot to comment on do tell me and I'll tell off whoever wrote the suggestion post-haste.

[FFMaster]

DATA TIME WOOO

Item Attributes
   0x00 - PA
   0x01 - MA
   0x02 - Speed
   0x03 - Move
   0x04 - Jump
   0x05 - Innate Statuses 1
   0x06 - Innate Statuses 2
   0x07 - Innate Statuses 3
   0x08 - Innate Statuses 4
   0x09 - Innate Statuses 5
   0x0a - Status Immunity 1
   0x0b - Status Immunity 2
   0x0c - Status Immunity 3
   0x0d - Status Immunity 4
   0x0e - Status Immunity 5
   0x0f - Starting Status 1
   0x10 - Starting Status 2
   0x11 - Starting Status 3
   0x12 - Starting Status 4
   0x13 - Starting Status 5
   0x14 - Absorbed Elements
   0x15 - Nullified Elements
   0x16 - Halved Elements
   0x17 - Elemental Weakness
   0x18 - Elements Strengthened


Status sets(0x05-0x13) - These are for Starting/Innate/Immune statii. For example, status Set 1 will apply to Starting/Innate/Immune status 1

Status Set 1
   0x80 -
   0x40 - Crystal
   0x20 - Dead
   0x10 - Undead
   0x08 - Charging
   0x04 - Jump
   0x02 - Defending
   0x01 - Performing

Status Set 2
   0x80 - Petrify
   0x40 - Invite
   0x20 - Darkness
   0x10 - Confusion
   0x08 - Silence
   0x04 - Blood Suck
   0x02 - Cursed
   0x01 - Treasure

Status Set 3
   0x80 - Oil
   0x40 - Float
   0x20 - Reraise
   0x10 - Transparent
   0x08 - Berserk
   0x04 - Chicken
   0x02 - Frog
   0x01 - Critical

Status Set 4
   0x80 - Poison
   0x40 - Regen
   0x20 - Protect
   0x10 - Shell
   0x08 - Haste
   0x04 - Slow
   0x02 - Stop

Status Set 5
   0x80 - Faith
   0x40 - Innocent
   0x20 - Charm
   0x10 - Sleep
   0x08 - Don't Move
   0x04 - Don't Act
   0x02 - Reflect
   0x01 - Death Sentence

Elements(0x14-0x19) - for all Elemental Strengthen/Weak/Half/Absorb/Null
      0x80 - Dark
      0x40 - Holy
      0x20 - Water
      0x10 - Earth
      0x08 - Wind
      0x04 - Ice
      0x02 - Lightning
      0x01 - Fire




The data has no gaps in between, all it really needs to do is spit out a huge line of numbers. Starting address is 0x610e8. Attributes will go from 50 to EF, or 160 separate item attributes.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Yeah that's easy.  I'll do it tonight probably.  The main issue will be getting a nice interface since a lot of data has to be displayed but I'll figure it out.  I'll probably just copy FFTPatcher to an extent.  The only really time-consuming part of this will be getting it to wire the numbers together correctly, but I think I can steal code from one of my old sheets to save effort on that.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Small update, interface is done but wiring it will take time.  It's simple work but tedious.  Expect it to probably be a few days.  Here's a shot of your fancy-pancy interface:



It's nice and incredibly user-friendly for if/when you find a way to adapt this to general use. 

PA/MA/SP/MOVE/JUMP are simple hex values.  Input the hex you want and it adds it, just keep it two-digits.  I could've set it up to work with DEC and convert everything properly but I'm lazy and no one will ever use a value greater than 09 anyway.  The rest will be a simple O/X check.  O = True and X = False.  For the sake of a failsafe any non-O value will also return a False but O/X is the system I'll be using by default.  Column A will also use an alternating Violet/Creme pattern for Attributes to help you keep note of where you are while doing things as the workbook is very long vertically.

[FFMaster]

Awesome, that's a good layout. Is it possible to split it into multiple worksheets? If you split it into 5 worksheets, each with 0x20 attributes, then it would involve less scrolling. Or is that too much work?

As far as it being used for general purposes, the system overwrites job data starting at job 01. If you use less item attributes, you can use the later jobs for unique jobs. Arena pushes the system to the limit, and will still have some room for unique jobs. For example, if you needed 10 more attributes, it will be safe to use special jobs 0A and onward, or maybe even a few before that. I haven't got exact calculations though.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Moving it between 5 worksheets would make it a lot harder to wire up but I'll see what I can do.   I haven't wired enough for multiple sheets to cause me to lose work, but it might become annoying later.  If I can find an easy way to split it up though I'll split it so that there's 16 Attributes per Sheet.  So 50-5F, 60-6F, etc. to keep it intuitively organized.

[Dokurider]

Yeah, I guess I didn't read the new Axe formula too well.

I don't care how crazy this is, I'm just going to throw it out there.

Germinas Boots: 2 Move, Always: Death Sentence

This would make a high move unit viable, using the AI's tendency to ignore DS'd units to create a kamikaze unit.

[Eternal]

The battle would never end. To my knowledge, the AI will -never- target a Doomed unit, even if it's the only one left.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

^

It will however target a Doomed unit if that unit has a skill charging on the CT list.

This is still the kind of idea I think is really bad though, personally.  Slap a high-damage unit like a Two Hands Samurai with power boosts on with this and the anti-Dead helmet and suddenly you have a unit getting 3 free turns where things probably die each go and his only drawback is a turn skip because Arena does not apply the Doom ignores Dead ASM as protection from both is bundled.  Even if it adopted that ASM though, you're still giving +2 Move and what's essentially 3 free oneshots on anything that's not a large map unless the opposing team is incredibly bulky.  No thank you.

[Malroth]

One semi random question. Does Move distance affect teleport disance?

[FFMaster]

Yes. The current maximum move that the AI can move via Teleport is equal to their Move. I've got a hack that will let them move further, but it does make the AI very dumb. It will always try to move the max distance possible, without regard to fail chance. I've considered making it something like this(a few ideas here):

Teleport: Allows unit to move 2 spaces further than current Move. Has a 30% chance to fail regardless of the distance moved.

Teleport: Allows unit to have a Move action after Act, even if the unit has already moved. Does not allow 2 Move actions after an Act action.

Teleport: Changes Move based on MA. Move becomes MA/3, rounded down.

Teleport: Increases Move based on % of HP. +1 Move when HP > 50%. 0 Move when lower.

All Teleport ideas still retain the original teleport effects, such as ignoring obstacles and terrain.

[Dokurider]

The only one that sound reasonable would be the first idea of Move + 2 with 30% of failing. If I'm understand the second idea right, it sounds more broken than Teleport 2. You'd be uncatchable as you hit and run the entire team. The third idea just makes MA stackers even more powerful. Flying mini-Elmdors everywhere. The 4th is pretty meh. It's a conditional Move + 1.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

0/10, don't really like any and don't see the point in them.  A flat 30% chance to fail just makes it a luck-based Movement that no one will want to use.  The other ideas are all just bad.  HP based one just makes it inferior to Fly in every way, MA based one just locks Teleport to mages always forever and encourages thoughtless MA stacking, and the Fire Emblem style one just further obviates long-ranged weapons like bows by allowing a melee unit to move in, attack, and leave.  Insert Samurai with power stack and Germinas Boots here. (Whether the AI will actually DO that... no idea.  If they're not doing it and just being stupid with it, it just becomes a pointless change so it's a lose/lose either way.)

If you're looking to differentiate Fly and Teleport a bit, you could merge Float and Fly together so that a unit with Fly can stop on any tile but one with Teleport can move through walls.  They're otherwise functionally the same and each advantage is better or worse depending on the map.  (EG, New Fly would be better on a map like Zigolis Swamp whereas Teleport is better on one like Underground Book Storage First Floor which has a big ass wall in the center.

[FFMaster]

It's more trying to give them uses.

[The Damned]

(Before I forget again, I noticed something when Dokurider posted his "Magic Missile" team: Master Guide says the Female Geomancer only has 3 Move, not 4. Furthermore, checking FFTPatcher right now, it would seem that both sides say that Geomancers only have 3 Jump when they actually have 4.)

...I'm not really sure what your "them" is referring to, but I have to concur with Raven that all those changes to Teleport would change it for the worse. Of them, the MA-one is probably the least worse considering it would theoretically encourage more MA*WP use. However, it's probably really encourage even more Draw Out, which hardly (read: doesn't) needs help.

If Float & Fly could be merged, then that would probably be for the best. Of course, that brings up the question of what the hell to do with Ignore Height still since that's obviated by both Teleport and Fly in almost every possible way, especially since fall damage occurs so rarely.

I'm not sure if anything *can* be done with that though, much like Defend.

Regardless, if Fly and Float get merged, I'm guessing that would get kept on Time Mage, right? If so, then we can move Move -1 to Bard & Dancer? Because, really, Paladin has absolutely no use for that.

****

I sincerely apologize for my inability to concise, Raven. I will legitimately try to keep it this series of replies to your post at the top of the page concise, especially since I really have other things I should be doing as always.

I'll keep all replies to three (regular-length) sentences:


1. Elemental Bows Keeping +2 MA for now: I concur; it's not hurting anyone, even if it's helping the Bows even less now.


2. Mauled Clothing: Yeah, sorry about that. I figured that's what you were aiming for. To me though, without the +1 MA, the Str: Holy & Dark seemed narrow enough to not justify the HP drop, at least if the other two were going to get +10 HP when they're more general and apply to every, even if the Strengthen element has the potential be bigger.


3. Axes Don't Work Like That: Oh, right, that crappy formula has been long fixed. Whoops. Still, maybe Slasher could use a bit of boost since it's weaker than Giant Axe when its own Strengthen is taken into account and Battle Axe's proc arguably makes that outright stronger too.


4. Wizard Staff differing from Wizard Rod: Actually, I was taking into the account that not every class that gets Staves can use Rods. Only Priest really "suffers" though since Time Mage's primary (like Oracle) didn't/doesn't really benefit that much from MA +2 anyway presently. Also, I wasn't agreeing with the +1 Sp Staff at all, hence why my Wizard Staff suggestion looks nothing like that and was trying to heavily benefit Priest as well as Time Mage as compensation.


5. Healing Staff and Rainbow Staff: ...That said, I've now decided that if any Staff does get +1 Sp, then Rainbow Staff should probably get it in addition to Neutral: All Elements and Block: Oil. As for Healing Staff getting a name change, I'm game if relatively indifferent that it gets one. Either "Chaos Staff" or "Cosmos Staff" works perfectly IMO.


6. Mace of Zeus's Achilles Heel: I'm not entirely sure it needs nerfing, hence making a new team to test it to its "fullest", but it just seems more prominent. Obnoxiously so now, frankly, as well being kind of braindead. I think it's just sticking out more that Lightning is already the strongest element damage-wise on Wizard now that those elements actually differ, which seems unnecessary.


7. Mimes Actually Being Affected by Silence: Well, shit, of course I'd be wrong. So noted. I concur they don't need immunity to Silence, especially since Sing and Dance still can't be Silenced anyway.


8. Flare Getting Lower MP: Yeah.


I'll try to make my (final?) suggestion list tomorrow of bearable length even inside the spoilers.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Time Mages still benefit from Wizard Rod's +2 MA. Again, it's called Secondaries.  If your Time Mage runs White Magic or Black Magic secondary (neither is very unreasonable), Wizard Rod helps a lot while +1 SPD is still generally not as useful.  Since you can get the one not given by the staff from a Bag, it makes more sense to keep +2 MA on the MA*WP weapon and relegate +1 SPD to the catch-all.  That was more in reply to Dokurider and co anyway who were suggesting that +1 SPD change, since I didn't really use quotes or anything on that post.

...You could give +1 SPD to Healing Staff if you REALLY want a +1 SPD Staff, though.  It would give the weapon a secondary use beyond healing things and it again synergizes with the whole "healers are better when they're faster" schtick when combined with Gaignun's stat changes by making Priests into 10 SPD with a healing Attack command.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, I suppose +1 Spd would be best on the Healing Staff if people want one at all. I was originally discounting that because of the Item Attribute cap; well, that and people saying they still felt that Rainbow Staff didn't really "do" anything...despite blocking Oil and having the highest attack of Staves now.)

With regards to Wizard Staff, that's understandable. It's not like I'm always trying to discount Secondaries. I just feel like Primaries take especial precedent in this case, at least if Time Mage is stuck only with Staves [and Bags] as weapon options and we're trying to buff the class. I also don't think Priest needs anymore buffs when it already has solid attack options despite being a healer because of Flail, so it can "kick rocks" to me since it's not especially tough loss IMO.

Of course, whether that would make them ultimately worse as healers when compared to the still rather dubious Murasame....

[Eternal]

As far as Ignore Height goes, I really feel it should tie into the Jump skillset somehow, like lowering the CT of Jump or something. Just a random thought.

[The Damned]

(Jump already seems fast enough, though, if only because of current +Speed spears usually making them 5 turn Jumps. Still, it's something at least, which is better than what I've ever thought of; this means I'll probably steal the solution for Embargo if it works FYI.)

Getting back to Staves, it just occurred to me that if there being a +2 MA Stave is so important and the +1 Spd is indeed better off on Healing/Chaos/Cosmos Staff alongside Strengthen Holy & Dark, then perhaps Rainbow Staff can get +2 MA? It would require its WP being lowered to the previous Wizard Staff's WP of 8, but it would give it "something" active to do aside from being really good with Shields with Block: Oil. Still, it might be a bit much, but meh.

I don't know, I'm just rather attached to my own proposal for Wizard/Black Staff admittedly. Between the lack of Dark type weapons--seriously, the only ones are Koutetsu Knife and Sadist's Whip, which are extremely similar--and wanting for Healing Staff to be useful/usable with Two Swords when it comes to other Staves, it seems "necessary". Of course, this is also taking into account that White Staff would become Holy element as parity to that so it would also be Two Swords usable with Healing Staff. Well that and just be usable in general, frankly.

[Dokurider]

This is going to sound random as hell, but what if Ignore Height lessened the duration of negative status (negate 3 CT from each negative status each time moved)?