FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

I suppose Earth strength would be OK, but leaving Whale Samurai with a free accessory might be trouble. Whatever, do it and we'll measure it by how pissed off everyone gets when they start getting sodomized by Whale Whisker on a regular basis.

Genji Helm won't have Strengthen: Water, so no worries.

Terror Blade/Darkhold Blade/Darkbringer/Magus Sword: WP: 8; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: ...Probably not.

Not a bad idea.  We might as well name it after WotL's Balmung given that that sword has the exact same function.  Indeed, Holy and Dark are the elements of choice for faith weapons, since they fit well with Golden Hairpin's MP boost.  WP doesn't need to be that low for the sake of Golden Hairpin, though.  That headgear is only going to add more PA than Twist Headband if PA is greater than 12, which requires specific equipment on most classes.

[The Damned]

(Hmmm...in looking back, there's not really anything else for me to reply to like I thought there was.

I'm still "out" on if Airrender/Kazekiri should be open to Two Swords, even as weird as it might look, but I agree with Dokurider that it probably shouldn't be able to be Two-Handed.)

Oh, I'd be fine with naming it Balmung, which is maybe what I was subconsciously remembering despite never playing War of the Lions given my research into things...years ago already. (Geez.)

Too bad we don't really need it now if Shieldrender works and isn't broken; the jury's still out on Bowgun. Between Balmung and Airrender/Kazekiri, I'd rather go with the latter, if only because it was here "first" and we already sort of agreed that Iron Fan should become Dark element, even if we could still use more Dark weapons after that. Well, that and the kinda crappy Kotetsu Knife doesn't really need more competition at present.

Of course, that assumes that we want the working Shieldrender to even stay, so....

We can at least agree that Phoenix Blade needs to die and we've finally agreed what Genji Helm and the rest of the Helms should look like, so we're at least making some progress equipment-wise again.

If we're sticking with Suiton instead of Doton, then that means Desert Rose is nixed and Aspergillium gets to stay as it is by default I suppose. That doesn't really solve the issue of the Monk elemental stuff (or if Flails should get on one of the Equip Xs) though....


P.S. If we're still going to talk about swords, then I still say that Icebrand could stand to get a bit of a WP drop and a better proc than what it has now. I think it's part of the reason that Tactician's Blade wasn't being used, especially since like Air Knife it was easily the strongest when (easily) strengthened. With Phoenix Blade dying, it's now out and out tied for strongest sword with Tactician's Blade, so....

[Dokurider]

Ice Brand was always tied with Tactician's Blade for strongest sword. Phoenix Blade had more WP, but considering the Always: Slow, it was more like 8 WP because DPS.

Making it Wind Elemental also has the additional benefit of synching with Genji Helmet.

[reinoe]

spoiler: Testing Bowgun:7-13-2013

spoiler: Edit History

7/13/2013

Primary Palette #3:Green
Second Palette #6:Yellow

Unit 1
Male
Cancer
70
40
Archer
Steal
Abandon
Concentrate
Move-MP Up
Bow Gun
Zephyr Shield
Green Beret
Santa Outfit
Feather Mantle

None
Quickening, Steal Heart, Steal Accessory


Unit 2
Male
Cancer
70
40
Archer
Steal
Abandon
Concentrate
Move-MP Up
Bow Gun
Zephyr Shield
Green Beret
Rubber Costume
Feather Mantle

None
Quickening, Steal Heart, Steal Accessory

Unit 3
Male
Pisces
40
70
Archer
Item

Magic Attack UP
Pilgrimage
Glacier Gun
Kaiser Plate
Thief Hat
Rubber Costume
Chantage

Arm Aim
X-Potion, Antidote, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

Unit 3
Male
Pisces
40
70
Archer
Item

Magic Attack UP
Pilgrimage
Blast Gun
Kaiser Plate
Thief Hat
Santa Outfit
Chantage

Arm Aim
X-Potion, Antidote, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

[The Damned]

(Yes, I am aware that Ice Brand was always tied for strongest in actuality, but that was due to a technicality, which is why I said now it's "out and out" tied. After all, Jump or even just normal attacking with Phoenix Blade rather hurts. At the same time, it's not like it really matters what WP Phoenix Blade had since attacking was not really its purpose and not the problem with it.)

Anyway, since we're talking about Swords, Crossbows and Katana (and, I suppose, Flails, sort of), we might as we finish up those categories, Bow Gun possibly set aside for now:


1. Flails: These are fine. Aspergillum probably isn't changing into Desert Rose now. The only real question is if Flails should a) get more class access and b) become part of some Equip X ability since they are currently the only weapon not even considered for one, unlike Harps & Cloths.


2. Swords: Phoenix Blade dies; everyone rejoices. It gets replaced by either Airrender/Kazekiri or Balmung; the latter comes in should Shieldrender, which is apparently working, be decided on still needing to be replaced now. Parry Edge gets a W-EV increase to 25% to be less pathetic. Coral Sword lose some WP in exchange for getting either Suiton or Reflect; at this point, probably the former--we've all agreed it at least needs a better proc.

Lionheart maybe gets some W-EV (even though I personally really think it doesn't "deserve" that). Icebrand maybe loses some WP and gets a better proc? The other swords remain the same regardless.


3. Crossbows: Even if it works in a less egregiously overpowered way than anticipated as with Shieldrender, Bow Gun will still probably have to replaced by...something. That can wait, though, I suppose. I just wanted to note this out both to be thorough and to point out the hitherto possibly accepted replacement of becoming a Two Handable crossbow just makes it a Crossbow that's only ever going to be used with Two Hands...which kinda steps on Gastraphetes's toes.

Anyway, this whole category as a whole needs some clarification. Are we going to up all of the four status crossbows WP to 12? Are we turning Gastraphetes into a Forced Two Hands, WP 14, Infinite Kagesougi? Are we ever going to finish watching Network after all these years?

Find out on the next Sick Sad World!


4. Katana: I still think the designs I came up with on the fly are surprisingly decent even if the katana that's been getting the most use is lazy-ass Kiyomori (which I don't think I came up with; I'd be fine with that becoming something else, really). Murasame is finally seeing some use though and Kikuichimoji will be seeing some use again with Genji Helm. Additionally, Muramasa & Bizen Boat are probably fine, even if thus far they've both been used better by non-Samurai units (read: Thieves and Ninja). That still leaves five other katana though....

Presently, Chirijiraden is possibly going to be superfluous now due to Genji Helm, if only because a) Samurai don't have a Water element ability and b) it's difficult for male Samurai to reach 12 MA without Kiyomori the katana. It's not completely superfluous given that it has the highest WP out of the (normal) attack capable Katana and it remains usable with Two Swords, but...yeah. Between Genji Helm and Giant Axe, it currently isn't exactly getting things done on the units that can naturally equip it.

(Again, I'd be fine with changing Kiyomori to something less lazy, especially in the light of Murasame & Bizen Boat the abilities' current level of power. Like, say, giving Kiyomori's the katana Masamune's current Dispel Magic proc, perhaps at a higher percentage as recompense.)

Speaking of Masamune, of the leftover katana, it probably has the least problems. It's just a matter of answering this question: Would Masamune the katana be fine also getting Initial: Regen in the face of Kibaku Fuda and the boost to Dispel Magic? Otherwise, I guess it can stay the same, barring the Kiyomori thing above.

Similarly, with Genji Helm, Heaven's Cloud the katana will probably see at least some use now. It's more just a matter of what happens with Heaven's Cloud the ability since that might still suck even with Genji Helm. It's...difficult to tell. (It might also be useful to figure what the hell is happening with Asura by comparison.)

Speaking of Asura, the Asura & Ko(u)tetsu Knives, which I also didn't come up with, are currently somewhat...unusable, the latter more than the former. They should probably stay the same elements are now, but self-strengthening is just not cutting it, especially when they are no physical abilities for the former and the latter is obviated by Sadist's Whip when it comes to Meiton. The only problem is that I'm not exactly sure what to do with them though either at present. Hmmm....

(Oh, and while we're talking about Samurai as a whole, I've come to think it would probably be fine if, in addition to becoming subject to M-EV, Bizen Boat was reduced to AoE 1 given how much MP damage it will still be doing with that very minor yet necessary nerf.)

[Dokurider]

Flails should belong to a Equip X, no mistake about that. Flails can piggy back on Equip Light Blades. I think the only viable candidates for Flails would be Thieves and...Time Mages?

Are we going to up all of the four status crossbows WP to 12?

Uh, no one ever said this? Only Silencer was agreed to need the WP boost. Actually now that I recall, Poison Bow was supposed to have a WP drop.

4. Katana:

You're lucky I was thinking about this, Asura and Koutetsu in particular, last night. I was going to pass on touching Katanas this update but since you brought it up:

The problem Asura and Koutetsu have is an issue of coverage. Once their respective element is blocked, they are shit out of luck for the damage output they were optimized for.

Koutetsu Knife will be fine if it loses it Dark Elemental. It still strengthens Koutetsu, but blocking it's respective element will still leave you with a usable weapon.

Asura Knife could technically do the same thing, but I'd actually like to see it differentiated from Koutetsu Knife somehow. But by making it's draw out better, that won't be a big issue. Speaking of it's draw out...

I don't remember who said that male Samurai can't use Draw Out well, but it's absolutely right in that males should be able to use Draw Out too. I suggest making one of the Draw Outs a PA * Y formula. I was going to suggest Heaven's Cloud, but then I realized that doing that would make the Wind Element too much of a Physical Element. So then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.

For Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA

The reason I suggested Masamune also gain Initial: Regen was so that the resident Masamune spammer minimizes the amount of time buffing. I think Masamune (katana) has to be capable of doing something after Regen/Haste wears off.

You can make Bizen Boat a single panel draw out and it'll still do it's job of midcharging mages. All reducing it's AoE does is hurt all Bizen Boaters that aren't 6+ move mini-Elmdors, who will only be mildly inconvenienced.

[Malroth]

Equip light blade granting flails would also help many non ninja Ninjutsu builds or sylph/leviathian specalized summoning bards.

[The Damned]

(I'd be up for Time Mage getting Flails. Beyond them or Thief, I'd say that Geomancer and maybe even Paladin would be other decent users, if only because of Grand Cross & female Paladins in the case of the latter though. Time Mage would be the most worthwhile user--at the very least, Sadist's Whip would start seeing more use; it would also further Time Mage & Priest as the support mages.

I'd be up for it going on Equip Light Blade too.)

So...having thought about it more, I'm now of the impression that Kiyomori the katana needs to die. I've come to the realization that it's essentially Rune Blade the katana, only with slightly more evade; yes, I'm that slow. Other than that, it's completely redundant and, much like Wizard Staff (compared to Wizard Rod), basically only around for one class, half of which can't use it well. We all know how I feel about Wizard Staff and Kiyomori, if anything, is worse.

In other to make it so that other katana actually get used, it needs to change. At present, the only thing I can think of is giving it 100% Dispel Magic given that having it add Poison & Blind seems a bit...much. Maybe that would be fine though; probably not.

Uh, no one ever said this? Only Silencer was agreed to need the WP boost.

I guess CT5Holy is no one then.

...Not that I expected you or anyone else to actually remember that, given I couldn't remember who said it--then again, my memory is shit--and I had to use the search function just now to bring it up.

Initially, it was a suggestion I was lukewarm to at best, but the more I think about it, the more it seems...fair enough I suppose, at least when it comes to the current state of Crossbows. It's difficult to tell if it would still be necessary though, what with Spellguns, Stone Gun and some of the higher end Longbows getting nerfed by necessity.

Bow Gun working & possibly sticking around now and the fact that I still think we should just combine Romanda Gun & Mythril Gun and make the remaining gun slot into a healing gun only serves to complicate things.

But...yeah. The status proc Crossbows to 12 WP? Yay? Nay? Maybay?

Actually now that I recall, Poison Bow was supposed to have a WP drop.

It was, at my initial behest to help get Silencer strengthened.

I then realized that Poison Bow...kinda sucked, especially in the face of the currently overpowered Hawk's Eye (that's still going to be overpowered if we leave it as is currently recorded in Gaignun's thread) and thus didn't bring it back up when it just dropped out of the equation. Well, that and after my initial (admittedly probably absurd) redesigns of Poison Bow got no backing.

But, yeah, Poison Bow already has enough issues with not being used. Dropping its power to 10 WP will just ensure it sees pretty much no use, at least while Hawk's Eye is still adding Poison (on top of 100% accurate, at least decent damage and Oil).

You're lucky I was thinking about this, Asura and Koutetsu in particular, last night. I was going to pass on touching Katanas this update but since you brought it up:

The problem Asura and Koutetsu have is an issue of coverage. Once their respective element is blocked, they are shit out of luck for the damage output they were optimized for.

Indeed.

Koutetsu Knife will be fine if it loses it Dark Elemental. It still strengthens Koutetsu, but blocking it's respective element will still leave you with a usable weapon.

It would be fine perhaps, yes, but the issue then becomes that we kinda, you know, lost one of the only two Dark element weapons in ARENA. Even assuming that Iron Fan gets made Dark elemental, we'd only be back up to two Dark-type weapons, especially since Balmung is in limbo with the revelation that Shieldrender actually works. Additionally, it just comes off as a lesser version of the current Chirijiraden, so...yeah. I will respectfully decline supporting that idea at present.

So noted though.

Asura Knife could technically do the same thing, but I'd actually like to see it differentiated from Koutetsu Knife somehow. But by making it's draw out better, that won't be a big issue. Speaking of it's draw out...

I don't remember who said that male Samurai can't use Draw Out well, but it's absolutely right in that males should be able to use Draw Out too. I suggest making one of the Draw Outs a PA * Y formula. I was going to suggest Heaven's Cloud, but then I realized that doing that would make the Wind Element too much of a Physical Element. So then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.

*raises hand*

I'd be up for making Asura physical as long as it's not a pain in the ass for FFMaster to do. It would kill more than two birds with one stone, especially given that Fire elemental lacks any physical abilities at all currently beyond Paladin's Crosses. Even those, one of my more successful teams has shown how much Paladins still kinda suck with that.

For Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA

I'm not sure that's necessary having thought about it more. With Monk getting all three of those elements, Chirijiraden as it is now should have a use even on males beyond just being the strongest attack-capable katana. Otherwise, it's still useful on (female) Samurai with Summon Magic, Lore and even Black Magic.

Changing it (again) shouldn't be necessary...yet.

The reason I suggested Masamune also gain Initial: Regen was so that the resident Masamune spammer minimizes the amount of time buffing. I think Masamune (katana) has to be capable of doing something after Regen/Haste wears off.

Yes, I am aware of the reason and I had remembered it when I initially suggested that last post.

As for removing Dispel Magic, it's less about "punishing" Masamune than about what I said at the very top of this post. If we want to give Masamune something to "do" after Regen & Haste wear off, then we don't just take a page from Jot5 (since we were considering doing that like a month ago) and just make it Range: 2.

I mean, everyone wuvs Sephiroth and FFVII, right? *yawns*

One could maybe give it more evade too given all of the katana are a bit...uniform that way despite Samurai being the heavy armor class with the least options for evasion. Of course, that kinda steps on Airrender/Kazekiri, at least if it's still usable with Two Swords like all the other katana (and see no reason for it to be).

I'd be fine with it keeping Dispel Magic; I'm just convinced now that current Kiyomori the katana needs to die & change given it could have its space used much better as with Wizard Staff.

You can make Bizen Boat a single panel draw out and it'll still do it's job of midcharging mages. All reducing it's AoE does is hurt all Bizen Boaters that aren't 6+ move mini-Elmdors, who will only be mildly inconvenienced.

Yes, I'm aware. Still, something needs to be done beyond the M-EV thing considering right now, as far as MP damage goes, Bizen Boat and maybe Witch Hunt are worth using and pretty much everyone agrees Bizen Boat does too much. Magic Ruin & Spell Absorb see pretty much no use, so....

[Malroth]

If changing Kiyomori to some other effect please allow samurai to equip regular swords so i can at least stick runeblades on them as a replacement.

[The Damned]

(No.)

I'm "sorry", but you get C Bags as your replacement if you don't want to use Equip Light Blade. It's the price you pay for having a Murasame capable of one-shotting Undead God.

It's the same for Priests and Wizard Staves: healers and/or units maxing out MA can stand to have shitty weapons.


P.S. For the record, I don't...entirely object to Samurai getting access to Swords, but meh.

Walking EDIT: Actually, no. Now that I think about it, Samurai really shouldn't get access to Swords. This if only because Innate: Two Hands with Lionheart or Platinum Sword would likely be really, really dumb.

[Dokurider]

I still think The Damned's Crusade Against +2 MA Weapons is gay, but that raised a interesting question for me:

What is the purpose of C Bag if everyone and their mothers has a +2 MA item on their person? Only the Ninja and the Monk could ever conceivably use the C Bag; every other class has access to +2 MA in some weapon form or another.

It's over The Damned. "Save the Spotted C Tree Whales" has failed. They have been officially whaled to extinction and made into fetching Ivory Rods grips, Rune Blade handles, Kiyomori sheaths, Mythril Gun bullets, and Ice/Lightning Bow arrows.

To celebrate I created a C Bag Ninja build that actually isn't too bad:

spoiler: C Bag

Female
40
40
Ninja
Draw Out
HP Restore
Magic Attack Up
Move + 1
C Bag
C Bag
Holy Miter
Wizard Outfit
Cursed Ring

Masamune, Chirijiraden

15 MA + MA Up + 5 Move + 10 Speed = Pretty Good. Cursed Ring gives her 12 speed after Masamune and also assures she'll be the gift that'll keep on giving. Reflect Ring can be added so that she can't embarrass herself by Berserk Bagging, the Reflect is a nice little bonus. Red Shoes is also an option for Elmdor Status. Genji Glove if you want a reason to use Abandon. Diamond Armlet for Earth Teams. Of course, without Cursed Ring, you'll have to take Murasame and that'll constrict what you can buy for a reaction. Other than that, pretty straight forward: Masamune, dash in, Chiri everyone, die, repeat.

[Gaignun]

I don't have time to comment on everything I'd like to, but

Lionheart maybe gets some W-EV (even though I personally really think it doesn't "deserve" that). Icebrand maybe loses some WP and gets a better proc? The other swords remain the same regardless.

Let's see how popular Lionheart becomes with 10 W-EV and go from there.  I don't see a problem with Ice Brand.  It's not a bad weapon; it simply doesn't fit in the current meta-game.

Bow Gun will still probably have to replaced by...something.

I wouldn't miss it if it is gone.

(Again, I'd be fine with changing Kiyomori to something less lazy, especially in the light of Murasame & Bizen Boat the abilities' current level of power. Like, say, giving Kiyomori's the katana Masamune's current Dispel Magic proc, perhaps at a higher percentage as recompense.)

I don't feel a reason to distribute the current Masamune's effect across two weapons.  It's pretty unattractive as it is.  That being said, I don't agree with increasing Masamune's proc rate to 100%.  100% dispel is Gold Staff's job.

Edit: We could increase Masamune's WP by 1, though.

Would Masamune the katana be fine also getting Initial: Regen in the face of Kibaku Fuda and the boost to Dispel Magic?

This is sensible and seems to be agreed upon by all parties.  I will add it to the list.

[/quote]

Flails can piggy back on Equip Light Blades.

I'm fine with this, myself.

So then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.

No objections here.

For Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA

I agree with only adding 1 PA, and at a cost of lowering WP from 11 to 10.  I don't want Chiri to overshadow Murasame as an MA-boosting weapon or Asura/Kotetsu as DPS weapons.  Chiri already boosts Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji, after all.

...at least while Hawk's Eye is still adding Poison (on top of 100% accurate, at least decent damage and Oil).

Is there a reason why Hawk's Eye ignores P-EV?  Why don't we make P-EV apply?

[The Damned]

("[Insert non-living noun here] is gay, with gay meaning bad."

...What? Seriously? When did you revert to a tween, Dokurider?)

Why, yes, my "Crusade" is totally only attracted to Crusades of the same sex. Not like I was trying to hide that or anything; it just wasn't any of your business or terribly relevant. After all, everyone knows how sexy the Third Crusade was, "gay" or "straight" or "bi" or other.

*rolls eyes*

Nonsensical, potentially offensive slang aside, that accusation isn't even correct. For one, it's not "crusade". The only thing I've ever crusaded against in ARENA was Quickening and that crusade is over; it ended in victory, motherfucker. For another, I don't have a problem with +2 MA weapons. Rune Blade, Wizard Rod, Mythril Gun, Ivory Rod, Ice Bow & Lightning Bow and C Bag are all fine. What I have a problem with is the egregious redundancy of a couple of them, namely Wizard Staff but now also Kiyomori the katana.

(It would be pretty damn hypocritical of me to argue that Wizard Staff "needs to die" because it's redundant and then leave Kiyomori the katana alone when it's guilty of exactly the same damn thing, only even worse.)

Even if this was a "Crusade", it would be a "Crusade Against Redundant +2 MA weapons" rather than all of them in general just because we have too fucking many of them; seriously, even killing those two, we still have seven. As you just admitted, C Bag is almost completely superfluous because of this. What's the point of even making that ubiquitous if still no one is going to use because they don't have to ever sacrifice anything when boosting MA (with a weapon) presently? Is it bad for me to want Samurai to actually, you know, use Robes to boost MA when not going for overkill, max-MA set-ups that make Murasame heal for 200+ HP instantly?

I don't have a problem with a katana still boosting MA, maybe even by +2 MA still, but like with Staves, you can't honestly look at Rune Blade & Kiyomori & their distribution and tell me that they aren't redundant to each other. Just like you can't look at Wizard Rod & Wizard Staff & their distribution and tell me that they aren't redundant even as much as mages depend on MA.

So, cute little kunoichi experiments aside, I'm going to continue to talk about this for at least a bit until we'll completely sure about katana shit one way or the other. Thanks.

Let's see how popular Lionheart becomes with 10 W-EV and go from there.  I don't see a problem with Ice Brand.  It's not a bad weapon; it simply doesn't fit in the current meta-game.

Ugh. Fine. If we must. I mean, I'm fine with Ice Brand/Icebrand staying as it is (for now). The "ugh" is referring to Lionheart here getting 10 W-EV that I really don't think it needs, but whatever. I'm not going to stand in the way given the fact that it's ultimately minor & will speak for itself eventually one way or the other. More importantly, I'm agreeing because it would be "nice" (read: easier for FFMaster) if we decided all the changes for 1.39 ARENA finally before the tournament ended.

I wouldn't miss it if it is gone.

Neither would I. That still doesn't mean that we shouldn't test it out if it's actually working, though, for better or for worse.

Not that I'm against not testing it out since it will probably be stupid, but until someone comes up with a sound replacement or decides what the fuck we're doing with Crossbows as a whole, it's going to be there regardless.

I don't feel a reason to distribute the current Masamune's effect across two weapons.  It's pretty unattractive as it is.  That being said, I don't agree with increasing Masamune's proc rate to 100%.  100% dispel is Gold Staff's job.

I wasn't talking about increasing Dispel to 100% on Masamune the katana. That would have been solely if it went to Kiyomori the katana.

Edit: We could increase Masamune's WP by 1, though.

We could...but I'm rather ambivalent there, especially since then it would be equal to power in Bizen Boat, which already sees very little use given how much blocks Silence. That's more an issue with Bizen Boat than Masamune though.

For the record, I wasn't being entirely sarcastic with being fine on the whole "give Masamune Range: 2" front, though admittedly that was partly on the condition of it probably losing Dispel Magic.

I agree with only adding 1 PA, and at a cost of lowering WP from 11 to 10.  I don't want Chiri to overshadow Murasame [sic] as an MA-boosting weapon or Asura/Kotetsu as DPS weapons.  Chiri already boosts Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji, after all.

So, what, Chirijiraden as "WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Special: +1 PA; Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water"? I...guess I could get behind that. Not terribly necessary, but definitely at least a slight improvement, especially with the upcoming Monk changes (that we still need to decide on--with Desert Rose dead, I'm guessing Earth Slash stays as it is).

Is there a reason why Hawk's Eye ignores P-EV?  Why don't we make P-EV apply?

...Because hawk's eyes' nicknames usually go along with some type of extremely good accuracy and the 100% hit aspect of it isn't actually what's wrong with it? Seriously, Hawk's Eye just needs to cost slightly more MP and lose the ability to cause either Oil or Poison. Losing Poison would be the best choice seeing as that would mean that Poison Bow is no longer obviated a technique that any Archer can use.

(It also needs a note that it is currently weapon-based, even if that's not that FFMaster intended.)

The only other solution would be to make it go back to adding "only" Oil & Poison with no damage and it didn't exactly see use when it did that, so....

We could maybe (ask FFMaster to) change the formula to slightly lower its more than decent damage. With Mythril Bow getting a nerf, Quickening dying, Oil & maybe even Poison getting nerfed and it getting a more appropriate MP cost as well still being subject to Projectile Guard, however, I'm not sure that we need to (just yet). Then again, Sprint Shoes is getting a buff and Speed +1 is coming into play as a movement, so....

Hawk's EDIT: Fixed the syntax of the second sentence of the first paragraph of the last quote here that I somehow fucked up big time. I probably missed something else still if I'm only seeing this now.

[Gaignun]

Not that I'm against not testing it out since it will probably be stupid, but until someone comes up with a sound replacement or decides what the fuck we're doing with Crossbows as a whole, it's going to be there regardless.

I hope crossbows will gracefully enter the meta-game once guns get nerfed.  There is little need to shake crossbows up at this point (aside from adding a point of WP here and there).  It's fine if crossbow WP damage is outshone by other alternatives.  Archers were originally damage-support, after all.  Only, at some point we went astray, putting guns in their hands and turning them into wrecking machines.

So, what, Chirijiraden as "WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Special: +1 PA; Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water"? I...guess I could get behind that. Not terribly necessary, but definitely at least a slight improvement, especially with the upcoming Monk changes (that we still need to decide on--with Desert Rose dead, I'm guessing Earth Slash stays as it is).

Yeah, it basically becomes a Punch Art weapon for Paladin and Samurai.  Both classes have difficulty stacking PA, so they still won't outperform Monks at their own job.

About Earth Slash, I would still like it to be water elemental, the reason being that water is more difficult to strengthen, especially following our Genji Helm change.  This is fitting for what is arguably the best offensive skill in the set.

[CT5Holy]

Is anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.

I'm in favor of the 2 range sword (Kazekiri/Kazegiri).
I also agree with Asura to PA*Y.
I like Thief Hat's Half: Water being moved to Green Beret. I still think Secret Clothes could see a mild buff though. Ooh, how about Immune: Don't Move?

Speaking of Katanas, what if we made Kikuichimoji proc Earth Slash instead of Quake? Could see some neat Samurai or Paladins with Martial Arts builds or something. Female Samurais would rather equip Kiyomori at the moment, anyway.

[Dokurider]

Is anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.

So somebody finally picked up on it, huh? As I said before, it's better than Platina Sword in every way except it's weapon formula and two swordablity and maybe how it's distributed. That being said, a simple WP drop should be sufficient.

Do you guys think that Katar, right now, is the best Thief weapon? I think while there are setups that'll produce more damage, but that +1 Move really makes it a powerful melee weapon.

[The Damned]

(I might as well do this now before I go on a walk.)

The best Thief weapon right now is Air Knife because of "lol broke" damage even before Oil stupidity; this despite having to contend with Thief Hat halving Wind. Katar is a close second, though.

I hope crossbows will gracefully enter the meta-game once guns get nerfed.  There is little need to shake crossbows up at this point (aside from adding a point of WP here and there).  It's fine if crossbow WP damage is outshone by other alternatives.  Archers were originally damage-support, after all.  Only, at some point we went astray, putting guns in their hands and turning them into wrecking machines.

Well, from what I remember, guns have been in ARENA's Archers hands from the start, which would have been fine...had spellguns not been broken since vanilla and had guns been bared from using shields. As it is now, the current changes to spellguns and Stone Guns help crossbows a lot, particularly Stone Gun now being finally confined to Forced Two Hands; I'll talk about the two other guns later and we'll see if spellguns should still lose Shield access now that they're Nether-based. This is part of why, Silencer aside, I'm not sure upping the damage on the crossbows is necessary anymore.

Still doesn't explain what to do with a Bow Gun replacement or what to do with Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes/Girafarig. People seemed to think Dokurider's suggestion was fine, myself included, even though infinite Kagesougi bow might cause...issues.

Also, Hawk's Eye still needs to not obviate Poison Bow at least, so...yeah.

Yeah, it basically becomes a Punch Art weapon for Paladin and Samurai.  Both classes have difficulty stacking PA, so they still won't outperform Monks at their own job.

I see. I can back that Chirijiraden then, especially since it would still be stronger (attack-wise) than Kiyomori even if we don't change that (though we should).

About Earth Slash, I would still like it to be water elemental, the reason being that water is more difficult to strengthen, especially following our Genji Helm change.  This is fitting for what is arguably the best offensive skill in the set.

So noted. It still means that we have to agree on something...somehow.

Is anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.

Just losing +1 PA makes it redundant (and technically inferior) to both Orichalcum and Air Knife, though.

I agree that a drop in WP would probably suffice as well as help the other knives without making Katar just wasted space as it losing +1 PA would. I don't want to talk about the other Knives just yet though despite the fact that we're "finished" with Flails.

I still think Secret Clothes could see a mild buff though. Ooh, how about Immune: Don't Move?

Hmmm...maybe. Don't Move sees relatively little use as it is though still, even if Hunting Bow is probably the best Crossbow still at present (not like that's saying much). The only other relevant thing I could think would be Immune: Poison and that might be a bit too much, even if it would help P Bag; P Bag is already getting a (minor) buff though.

Speaking of Katanas, what if we made Kikuichimoji proc Earth Slash instead of Quake? Could see some neat Samurai or Paladins with Martial Arts builds or something. Female Samurais would rather equip Kiyomori at the moment, anyway.

At present, I don't support that, if only because Kikuichimoji the katana is the only giving male Samurai any incentive to use Faith at all. Similarly, that katana is the only katana that benefits from the current Muramasa katana. The only other katana that interacts with Muramasa's Faith proc (directly) is Masamune's Dispel one, which...Dispels it since Dispel Magic for some reason gets rid of Faith. So...yeah.

Duly noted, but I personally have to disagree with this idea for now. Chirijiraden adding +1 PA should be enough for Samurai that want to play around in Martial Arts.

[Dokurider]

Air Knife deals high damage, but being halved by Thief Hat diminishes it's effectiveness. Yes, Oil will bypass that weakness, but as a standalone weapon, I think Katar is better.

[CT5Holy]

Uh, yeah, Katar is definitely better than Air Knife because you don't have to worry about elemental resistances, and it does plenty of damage ("lol broke damage," as you would say) anyway. The +1 PA is nice, too.

[The Damned]

(It's not like Air Knife, even as silly as it is with Oil, blows Katar away or anything. Hence why I said it was at least a close second. It's impossible to judge either as "a standalone weapon" though if we're talking about elemental resistances in one breath but not acknowledging that most Two Hand Katar users are also Cursed Ring users when that adds +1 PA and +1 Sp [and eternal "life"] in another. Meanwhile one of Air Knife's few weaknesses, beyond Thief Hat, is that it's somewhat reliant upon 108 Gems to get its real stupidity going even before Oil.

That said, I'm not sure why we're even suddenly arguing this in the first place if we agree that both weapons need to be nerfed and probably aren't going to agree otherwise. You both think Katar is definitely better; I think Air Knife might be better; they're both getting nerfed; so noted.

So let's please talk about something actually relevant given everything left to still discuss before the tournament ends.)

Speaking of which, if we're taking impromptu votes on the new sword to include with Phoenix Blade dying for good and having to choose between Kazekiri & Balmung because Shieldrender may probably stick around now, then I'll vote too: Balmung.

I'm voting for Balmung not because I came up with it--I didn't, really, at least on a completely original level that can't be definitively separated from subconsciously remembering the War of the Lions weapon that Gaignun suggested for its name.

I'm voting for Balmung for several reasons:


1. We rather desperately need more Dark type weapons, especially when the only suggested "fix" to Ko(u)tetsu Knife is to make it not Dark element. Thus far, the only weapon that's (maybe) decided on as a new Dark element weapon is Iron Fan...when we have no idea what might be happening with Poles' formula. So having a definitive third (or maybe only second) Dark element weapon would be...good.

2. We "need" a sword that actually rewards Faith since none of them currently do. The closest is Ice Brand, which has...issues on that front, partly due to the issue between Tier 1 and Tier 2 Black Magic. (Which I'm sure is partly so because of spellguns.) Other than that, the only other two swords that care about MA, Coral Sword and Ultima Weapon, don't care about Faith and one of them sucks & is changing to reward a lack of Faith. Finally, the only other MA-related option, Rune Blade, "rewards" Faith...maybe. More often than not, it's used for non-Faith MA-using options like Draw Out & Elemental.

3. We "need" a close-range causer of Stop, if only to help better justify the many things that have Immune: Stop, the bettering of Mythril Helm and the still-new Chronos Tear.

4. Similarly, we "need" a way more wide-spread causer of Stop since Books are on few classes, Harps are stuck on Bard and even if Harps get into/onto an Equip X, they'll be on Equip Magegear...which is the same one that contains Books.

5. We can make a katana Range: 2 for "stylish" combos, especially since then such combos would be free to not be bogged down by Wind element. So that makes Kazekiri as a sword kinda redundant while simultaneously making Katana more appealing than they currently are. Simultaneously, trying to fit Balmung's design onto a katana is (way) more problematic, and not just because of Innate: Two Hands.

6. We "should" not be giving Heaven's Cloud the katana more competition when it's pretty much seen no use, especially since we've yet to know what effect Genji Helm will have on it(s actual use).


So...yeah. We can just make a katana into a non-elemental "Kazekiri" if we really want a "stylish" sword that's Two Swords and Range: 2, even if for some unfathomable reason we're not changing Kiyomori the katana.

Balmung, please.

Runed EDIT: Just clarified things a bit more, especially on the previously laconic Rune Blade comment. Possibly annoyed overall tone still included. Also added another reason in another edit. I then added a final round of clarifications in yet another edit.