FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Malroth]

Dear god you diddn't try to record a match with my joke team did you?  You poor poor man.

[The Damned]

(Hey, I asked you if I wanted something recorded.)

And it wasn't exactly a joke team since it won or, rather, it wouldn't die...for almost an hour over just two matches. I cut it short after Reks's was left with just one Archer both times since goddamn Auto Potion made it pointless to wait just as with Raven's match vs. Wiz.

Speaking of which, you actually gave me the older versions of Wiz's Team, so...I couldn't use that match, hence trying to record...that.

At the very least, I should be able to get you and Gaignun recorded by today though again, I'm still having audio issues.

*decides to try and think of something to say that is actually relevant to thread topic*

Uh...I still say that Wizard Staff can afford to become not +2 MA even if that "deprives" Priests of having +2 MA on something they can actually attack with for good damage. Considering C Bag exists and I'm not sure why the hell Priests, as healers, should be getting need to be able to brain people so easily with that particular Stave, it seems a small and more than acceptable loss given what I proposed for it. Making Healing Staff more usable (with Two Swords) and making Wizard Staff not a carbon copy of Wizard Rod seem far more important, especially since it's only really Priest that (unnecessarily) benefits from Wizard Staff as it is now anyway. [/covering huge ass]

[Gaignun]

I've been thinking about Time Mages.  If we really (and I mean really) want to buff them, how about we keep their stats poor, but let them equip shields?  Then we'd let the player choose which stat gets boosted (ie. +1 MA from Aegis Shield, +1 SP from Zephyr Shield, +2-3 MA for elemental offense from Kaiser Plate - a Time Mage with Kaiser Plate and Magic Attack UP would be a formidable Black Magick user, although no more so than, say, a Geomancer, which is fine since both would have minimal recovery options).  We wouldn't even need to worry about buffing Haste over Masamune: the utility a shield provides will attract players to Time Mages, whereupon they'll make use of Haste whether it is inferior to Masamune or not.  This, in my opinion, is the best way to buff skills: promote new synergies while leaving currently popular formulas alone. That said, Haste still needs a buff to its constant (from 60 to 70-80), which I believe was brought up already.  The only build this change wouldn't promote is dual-wielding staves - a small price.

Time Mages will become the only mage class that can cover high Faith with M-EV.  I guarantee that Time Mages will see a lot more use for this very reason, poor base stats be damned.

[The Damned]

(The Damned takes a break from Youtube still giving a headache to give everyone else a headache, partly because he's such a giving person like that.)

Hmmm...giving Shields to Time Mages. I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't thought about it with as much as mages and Time Mages in particular have come up as late.

That said, at present, I can't really get behind that change. Certainly, it's interesting, perhaps even more than formerdeathcorps's 10 Speed proposal. Giving them Shields "just" so that they can be the only mage class that can cover high Faith with M-EV seems like overkill that isn't addressing the problem however. This especially when you realize how "slow" Time Mage's spells are and how that M-EV still isn't going to mean much if they get stuck charging. This is even more likely to occur now with Short Charge not being in Time Mage anymore; I'm really not sure when that happened.

(It doesn't exactly help that Wizards can fill a pseudo version of what you want already considering they no longer need high-Faith to mess people up despite still being inferior to Scholars in almost every way.)

If "we" are going to give a mage class access to shields, then I think it should be more for reasons that are more than  "high Faith with M-EV" since as valid a reason as that is,  mantles do exist and have been improved; similarly, Genji Gauntlet looks like it's going to continue to exist, so....

As such, I feel there are three things that we must consider, though only one of them is unique to mages:


1. Whether the class has some Primary abilities that would be able to take advantage of two more Shields than just Aegis Shield, which all mages benefit from: Time Mage fails here, not really benefiting from any shield save Aegis Shield without dipping into a Secondary. In a small bit of hindsight, I suppose it does benefit from Zephyr/Venetian Shield as well to get to 10 Speed, but that's really not "enough", especially when it can already get that from H Bag or Thief Hat or "even" Secret Clothes or Sprint Shoes.

2. Whether the class has equipment options that would benefit from shields: Time Mage fails here as well. Hard. If they're going to be still suck with only Staves & Bags, then there's really no reason for them to have Shields since part of the reason to have those is to encourage physical attacking on the class as a whole. Since Bags are unlikely to get buffed in terms of WP--they don't need it to--and of the three Staves people have agreed on--Gold Staff, Healing Staff & Mace of Zeus--only Gold Staff is worth attacking with...yeah. This is valid despite most mages not being "meant" to attack because a) it's a consideration that obviously went into all other shield-bearing classes and b) we all know that the AI will attack at some of weirdest and dumbest times, even with a Bag, unless you have a weapon that can heal the opponent.

3. Whether the class has "enough" spells (read: at least half of their spells) that are "quick enough" (read: > or = CT 3) with Short Charge for any evasion granted by a shield to matter so as not to be caught mid-charge: Time Mage actually passes here despite what I was initially thinking as I thought about your post while on the way to an errand about an hour. It actually succeeds the most here. It just has a problem getting mid-charged due to being stuck at 9 Speed right now and having to pay an additional 250 JP for Short Charge now.


IMO (not that I should have to say that), if we assume that a (mage) class has to pass at least two of these to really "deserve" a Shield, then Time Mage obviously isn't it. Let's look at the other mage classes; assume that Aegis Shield applies for all instances of 1:


1. Wizard: Passes 1 due to elemental shields that aren't Mythril Shield & Kaiser Plate. Passes 2 despite being stuck with only Rods in bags because Rods are actually quite threatening to attack with now that they are go off of MA. Passes 3 by having 9 such spells. Overall: Pass.

2. Priest: Fails 1 since it doesn't benefit from anything but Aegis Shield with White Magick as a whole, not even Genji Shield since Flails go strictly off WP. Fails 2 much for the same reason despite Flails being great attack options. Passes 3 by having 10 such spells, including the still instant Dia. Overall: Fail. (Not really a loss given that Priest frankly has enough good crap as it is if we're considering nerfing it to buff Time Mage anyway.)

3. Summoner: Fails 1 because the only other Shield it benefits from is Kaiser Plate and even then that's only 4 of its spells, though 3 of those are unavoidable; Genji Shield doesn't really count even if Books PA just because Summoner PA is such crap. Passes 2 for much the same reason that Wizard does, even if it's even squishier than Wizard. Fails 3, but only surprisingly barely since 7 of its 15 spells pass. Overall: Fail.

4. Oracle: Arguably passes 1 because it benefits from Kaiser Plate due to having access to Rods; it benefits from Zephyr/Venetian Shield due to having having the most CT 1 Spells of any mage & arguably the best equipment vs. its other stats (at present); it even potentially benefits from Genji Shield since, unlike Summoner, it has Oracle decent PA, especially for a mage, and access to Books. Passes 2 for the same reason that Summoner does, except has better to having HP and access to Poles. Passes 3 because the only spells slower are Sleep (poor, poor Sleep), Beguile and Petrify. Overall: Pass.

5. Scholar: Passes 1 for benefiting Kaiser Plate, all elemental Shields save Flame Shield and even Genji Shield. Passes 2 due to having the most diverse access to weapons of among mages, getting Swords and the "rare" Poles alongside Staves, Rods & less rare Books. Actually fails 3 because the only speedy spells it actually has are Bio, Tornado, Quake and, right on the edge, Bio 2; this while 4 obviously isn't half of 11. Overall: Pass.


So going by that, this means we can split mages down the middle:


1. Mages that "deserve" Shields: Wizards, Oracles or Scholars.
2. Mages that don't "deserve" Shields: Priests, Summoners or Time Mages.


So...yeah. Maybe if "we" were decided on what Time Mage's Speed was going to be going in 139 as well as Staves "should" be in the coming version I could get behind it, but as Time Mage is now, its crappy stats really need a buff. This especially if spell-guns don't die considering Time Mage are directly in competition with Mediators.


TL;DR: Shields aren't going to do much more for Time Mage that mantles are. If anything, Oracles or Scholars or Wizards "should" get Shields before they ever naturally touch Time Mage's spindly wrist (unless, of course, you're giving Shields to everyone.)

Also, spellguns should probably die, but that's another topic of long-winded discussion.

[Gaignun]

I think you're overanalysing it.  Everyone benefits from shields.  I put shields on an oracle and chemist in season one despite one being white magick support and the other being a gunner simply because I wanted the M-EV and elemental boosting.  I propose to give shields to Time Mages because they are the one mage class most sorely in need of these benefits.

If "we" are going to give a mage class access to shields, then I think it should be more for reasons that are more than  "high Faith with M-EV" since as valid a reason as that is, mantles do exist and have been improved; similarly, Genji Gauntlet looks like it's going to continue to exist, so....

I don't see how this detracts from the proposal.  Making shields innate opens Time Mages to plenty more equipment options.  By equipping shields, their accessory slot is freed up for something else, like status resistance or stat boosting.  Everyone has access to mantles, so why aren't we pulling shields away from everybody?  I expect you answer this with my next quote, which I will summarise.

Classes with access to shields must:
1) be able to use all (or most) equally well
2) be able to pair them with weapons for melee combat
3) must not have skills in their primary skill set with long (3+) CT

First of all, I appreciate your effort in qualifying which classes are worthy of shields.  I thought I'd share my own philosophy about shields by going through these qualifiers one by one.

1. The class must be able to use all (or most) shields equally well

I argue that all classes can use all shields equally well.  The elemental resistance from Gold Shield, Platina Shield, and so on are universally applicable.  P-EV and M-EV are also universally applicable.  Granted, some - particularly Aegis Shield - will be more attractive to Time Mages than others, but that speaks more about the shields than their user.  Aegis Shield is popular with Geomancers for Draw Out and Geomancy because it gives an MA boost.  This doesn't mean we should pull shields from every class that stacks MA.  Similarly, Paladins can't use the absorption shields effectively because they have a hard time covering for the shields' attendant weaknesses.  In fact, Time Mages can use these shields better than Paladins because Time Mages have access to clothing.  This isn't grounds for pulling shields from Paladins.

In the end, the purpose the shield is put toward depends entirely on the player.  A player can put a Gold Shield on a Time Mage and cover the attendant Earth weakness with Earth Clothes just as well as the player can put an Aegis Shield on a Time Mage for an MA boost.  (Ice Shield, Black Costume, and Mace of Zeus is a solid counter to magic guns, by the way.  Face a Glacier gunner that tries to get around ice absorption, which is typically from Santa Outfits, with Armor Break and he'll be SOL.  That's a better reason to consider equipping an Ice Shield than there's ever been!)  There are as many possibilities as there are shields.

2. The class must be able to pair them with weapons for melee combat

I hope I'm not twisting the meaning of your second qualifier with this summary, but this is what I gathered when I read your statement about pairing shields with weapons for physical combat.  To be honest, I don't even know what to make of this qualifier.  Personally, I never saw the purpose of shields as being to assist melee combat.  Weapons assist melee combat.  This is, unless, you mean that shields are meant to cover the high Brave values that melee classes traditionally have, in which case I'd say that you are subjecting shields to a personal imposition.  Shields are equally worthy for covering high Faith values, as well.  They have M-EV for a reason, after all.

A shield is simply meant to keep its user alive.  Whether the player plans for this user to engage in melee combat is his or her prerogative.  Magic attacks hit from afar.  Avoiding melee combat does not keep units out of harm's way, so the shield is still going to see use on a Time Mage.

3. The class must not have skills in their primary skill set with long (3+) CT

This is your most valid qualifier.  Indeed, there will be times when a Time Mage toting a shield will be mid-charged.  This speaks only to the shield's P-EV and M-EV, though.  Like I said in my previous post, the shield serves a second purpose: boosting the Time Mage's lousy stats (or, alternatively, providing some elemental resistance).  Stat boosts and elemental resistances apply whether the Time Mage is mid-charged or not.  If the player is especially worried about being mid-charged, then he or she can give the Time Mage Short Charge, as always.  However, might I inform you that, if you equip a Time Mage with Zephyr Shield or Thief Hat, then, on the first turn of battle, all spells with 3 or fewer CT (lower tier Time Magick and Black Magick, most of the useful Yin Yang Magick, et cetera) will finish casting before 8 SP units get their first turn.  With Short Charge, all spells with (I think) 5 or fewer CT will do the same.  Alternatively, we can just reduce Time Mage's SP to 8 so players can make their Time Mages hug the bottom of the AT list.  This is actually what I suggested from the beginning.

Regardless, Time Mages will exploit their shield's P-EV and M-EV more often than you think.  Unless the Time Mage and every single opponent share the same SP, and that Time Mage is in the first unit position, the shield will invariably help keep the Time Mage alive.

In the end, Time Mages are no better off if we continue to deprive them of shields.  Think of the current Time Mage as getting mid-charged and losing out of the shield's evasion 100% of the time, because the shield is not there to begin with!

While other mage classes might indeed be more worthy of shields according to your qualifiers, I do not propose these classes get them because they are strong enough as it is.  For example, giving Wizards access to both Kaiser Plate and Magic Attack UP would be plain broken without an accompanying nerf to their base MA.  Giving Time Mages shields will not upset the balance so.

[The Damned]

(Oh, I actually have no intentions of giving present Wizards shields for the reason you get at since Kaiser Plate and Magick Attack UP would be...Overwhelming. I'd much rather they go to Time Mage before they ever go to present Wizard, even if present Wizard is a worse present Scholar.

I mean, I'm not against Time Mages maybe getting access to Shields ever. I'm just not...for it at present, especially if it's in lieu of fixing their stats. If Shields are to go to any mage in 139, then I'd rather they go to Oracle or a "nerfed"/differently statted Scholar before they go to Time Mage is all.)

That said, yes, of course Shields are useful to all classes because "duh." My argument was never "Time Mages in no way benefit from Shields". It was (and still is) "Time Mages only really benefit from two Shields--Aegis Shield & Zephyr Shield--without having to dip into specific secondaries".

Are "we" going to start giving things to (lesser) classes in lieu of trying to fix actual problems because just a few items in that category would benefit the class? If that's the case, then why not give Bards innate access to Bows so that Holy Bow could finally see some use? Better yet, why not give all Mages (or, hell, everyone) innate access to Armor if Hats other than Flash Hat are finally going to get more MP? Especially when everyone has trouble with status? Same with giving everyone Clothes. Everyone benefits from elemental absorption, right?

The reason that I thought everyone wasn't given Shields while everyone had access to Mantles was because a) everyone having access to Shields would end up weakening anything with M-EV even more, which is bad when most of that is the already still-troubled Faith-based magick and b) the buff to Blind alongside Defending still being as it was. Concentrate being back is the only reason that things blocked by P-EV also wouldn't get screwed over as badly by everyone suddenly getting access to shields.  This is to say nothing of some classes' initial C-EV as it is.

*looks at Thief*

I obviously don't have such a huge problem with everyone potentially getting access to Shields, what with considering to currently do it in Embargo at present. To me, though, that necessitates such a large work around just in terms of magick and classes as to not really be feasible in ARENA; hell, it might not even be feasible in Embargo, to say nothing of Equip Shield becoming completely obviated.

As for why Paladins "should" have Shields if they access to Mantles as well, it's because a) they're meant to be defensive tanks and b) they have no class evasion anymore to make up for having access to both. Remember when they had just decent evasion, barely more HP than they have now and access to both Shields & worse Mantles? When they still pretty much beat the shit of everyone else despite having a crappy skill set aside from Grand Cross before Blind was buffed? Yeah.

As for the other classes that have Shields, well Squires & Geomancers have Shields to make them more enticing due to their jack-of-all trade stats, Lancers are offensive tanks that evade with both Shields & Range 2 weapons & Jump and Samurai would probably have Shields if they didn't have Innate: Two Hand/Doublehand. As for Archers, well, to be frank, I've said many times that I'm not comfortable with them having innate access to Shields or, at the very least, Guns being usable with Shields. No one has ever agreed with me on that, though, and I'm so very tired of arguing it especially with so many other things being worthy of focus at present.

In terms of balance, stats of course balance out shield access, which is part of the reason why I can't currently get behind your proposal: not only does it throw any stat "changes" to Time Mage into further chaos by adding in another option--"Leave Time Mage's stats as they are and just give them Shields"--but also doesn't solve the underlying problem of said stats...you know, being horrible. Or, at least, being the exact same as Mediator and then blown away in terms of HP. Time Mages don't really have jack-of-all-trade stats, much less good ones at present.


(As an aside, I will grant that a Glacier Gunner can't get past your set-up...easily. This is of course assuming that he doesn't have Shield Break [instead of Armor Break] or just have friends with Oil [or with Shield Break/Weapon Break/Armor Break]. Unless you're going to tell me that this already too-specialized, only-two-of set-up [that currently screws over the Time Mage's MP] also necessitates wearing Diamond Armlet or 108 Gems, which block Oil but leaves the user vulnerable to Silence now as well, or using Maintenance as a Support or both.

Basically you're telling me that spellguns aren't a problem just because some obscure set-up that drastically cuts down your actual options and can only be used as a two-of exists and might beat it. This despite the fact that said Gunners can just Hawk's Eye your face off, Oil you up and paddle you that way.

...Yeah. You might as just say "hey, Spellguns aren't a problem so long as you make every team you have two units with Projectile Guard and two Time Mages with either Black Magick or Summon Magick." Sounds fun. Spellguns either need to die or turn into "Nether" Spellguns so they don't get powered up by just walking around since obviously lowering their WP and making them consistent didn't do jack.)


I'll end this by concisely answering your criteria commentary:


1. You're underestimating Paladins use of accessories here, again. That's all I'm going to say, especially since Grand Cross is instant unlike literally almost every other self-elemental-absorb healing.

2. Of course it's a personal imposition. I'm just bringing up melee synergy because the AI pretty much always charges forward unless a) it's in Critical & not the last unit or b) it can't move for some reason or c) it has Teleport as its movement. Yeah....

3. I am aware of that. Countdown in the SCC tournament is literally using this very fact which is why he has 11 Speed and Short Charge Stop, which means the cutoff with Short Charge is 6 CT. So...yeah, that's why the cut off was 3 CT in the first place. Way ahead of you there, especially since I went back and admitted before I even posted that Zephyr Shield would benefit Time Mages even if we left them at their horrible speed; I just said that Zephyr Shield wasn't enough of a reason along Aegis Shield for Time Mages' stats to be left as they are.


Don't get me wrong (again, please). Your proposal has merits and isn't utterly horrible or anything. I just don't agree with it at present for the (long-winded) reasons above. That's it.

[CT5Holy]

That said, yes, of course Shields are useful to all classes because "duh." My argument was never "Time Mages in no way benefit from Shields". It was (and still is) "Time Mages only really benefit from two Shields--Aegis Shield & Genji Shield--without having to dip into specific secondaries".

I argue that all classes can use all shields equally well.  The elemental resistance from Gold Shield, Platina Shield, and so on are universally applicable.  P-EV and M-EV are also universally applicable.
Like I said in my previous post, the shield serves a second purpose: boosting the Time Mage's lousy stats (or, alternatively, providing some elemental resistance).  Stat boosts and elemental resistances apply whether the Time Mage is mid-charged or not.
In the end, the purpose the shield is put toward depends entirely on the player.

I'm now going to go through a list of the non-Aegis, Genji, and Zephyr shields and see which ones require a secondary to take full advantage of.

Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV/20 M-EV, Absorb Earth Weak Lightning - no secondary needed
Gold Shield: the compliment to Mythril Shield, also no secondary needed
Ice and Flame Shields: Similar to above, just with Fire/Ice Absorb/Weak, so no secondary needed here
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV/25 M-EV, Null Earth and Holy - no secondary required
Platina Shield: 25/5, Null Wind and Water - no secondary needed
Crystal Shield: 20/20, Neutral: All - no secondary needed
Kaiser Plate: 15/20, Strengthen Fire Ice Lightning - yes secondary needed
Escutcheon II: 25/25, no secondary needed

So uh, only one shield needs a secondary to be extra effective.
Also, I think Genji Shield is a rather poor choice for a Time Mage. Genji Shield has very meh evasion, and the main reason to use it, the +1 PA, does not benefit Time Mages. The Cancel: Dead (and by extension, Death Sentence (I think?)) part is nice, but it's not very common. Death Sentence, Secret Fist, Throwing Knife and Odin IIRC are the only ways to inflict Dead/Death Sentence. Oh and Death, which apparently requires the target to be susceptible to Dead.

As for why Paladins "should" have Shields if they access to Mantles as well, it's because a) they're meant to be defensive tanks and b) they have no class evasion anymore to make up for having access to both. Remember when they had just decent evasion, barely more HP than I had now and access to both Shields & Mantles? When they still pretty much beat the shit of everyone else despite having a crappy skill set aside from Grand Cross before Blind was buffed? Yeah.

They were only able to 'beat the shit out of everyone' more because of their stats than anything - they had 12 PA at the time. That's 2 PA more than they have now. That's actually relevant, since before you could give them Attack UP and they'd already be at an effective 16 PA, so you could give them non-stat boosting armor, knowing they would do solid damage.
I'm pretty sure Paladins lost their C-EV (which was only like 5 or 10% at the time, anyway) because it was a small and simple nerf that wouldn't change things too much, and it was part of the main nerf package of adjusting their stats in the first place. If it was due to them having access to Shields and Mantles, then most likely Abandon was the problem, as Abandon was 2x evade for a time.
Now that Paladins do occupy a more defensive role, I think it would be ok to give them some C-EV, just 5 or 10%. Remember, C-EV only applies to physical attacks coming from the front (unless you use Awareness). Chances are good that a unit will face a few physical attacks from the front, but it's usually inconsequential, as units also have innate Weapon Guard (which also may or may not be fairly inconsequential). If there's a significantly higher chance to miss, it's likely due to Shields and/or Mantles and/or Main Gauche than it is C-EV. I think Thief C-EV is fine for said reason - they have access to Main Gauche for a really slippery unit, and Concentrate and Hidden Knife are around to counter.

Also, as a fun sidenote, the spellguns are actually working as intended. The changes were meant to encourage people to shoot things with it, instead of comboing them with other skills due to their formerly absurd WP. Their WP was that high to begin with to make the average damage from a spellgun shot reasonable, since 60% of the time it would fire off a tier 1 spell.

[The Damned]

(*yawns*

Damn. I actually fell asleep.)

The Genji Shield thing was a typo, hence why I fixed to say Zephyr Shield in italics well before you replied.

I'm now going to go through a list of the non-Aegis, Genji, and Zephyr shields and see which ones require a secondary to take full advantage of.

*snip*

By saying "take advantage" of, I meant two things that we seem to be disagreeing on:


1. The unit has to not get often stuck mid-charging so to be able to take actually take advantage of the evasion: This is my greater problem with giving Time Mage's shields, especially since I'm pretty much the only other person besides maybe Gaignun to comment on formerdeathcorps's 10 Speed proposal. Giving Shields to only 9 Speed class that constantly needs to charge isn't going to fix said class's shit HP and awkward Speed, among other things.

2. The unit has to be able to take advantage of the secondary effect of the shield if left on its own regardless of its Secondary: Not really sure what's difficult to understand about this, especially since it's the reason that I've not mentioned Escutcheon II so far despite its significant evasion that anyone can take advantage of (as long as they aren't Charging or Performing).

Let's look through the other shields you brought up:


1. Mythril Shield: The easiest of elemental shields for Time Mage to cover the absorption of between Rainbow Staff and Mace of Zeus. Too bad Time Mage doesn't have any Earth element spells to take advantage of that without dipping into Lore. Similarly, this shield has to compete Float if used on a team that isn't focused on Earth absorption or a Time Mage with Lore.

2. Gold Shield: This is also "easy" for Time Mage to cover the weakness of between Rainbow Staff and the aforementioned Float. Even if you're overly paranoid about Float not blocking Kikuichimoji (the sword) or Giant Axe, Earth Clothes is literally the only piece of clothing at present to give the user some MP anyway. Too bad there's literally no reason for a Time Mage to ever use it unless you've managed to hit the 2-of limit for Mace of Zeus since Gold Shield is so inferior to the current Mace of Zeus as to be laughable. And given that Mace of Zeus is one of the two usable Staves as it is and Time Mage's only weapon options are between basically it and Bags for potential offense (since part of Healing Staff's use is that the AI won't ever attack the enemy unless Berserk)...yeah....

3. Ice Shield: Rainbow Staff works here too of course. Baring Gaignun's "nifty" anti-spell-gun set-up (that still loses to spell-gun), there's no reason to use this without a secondary or the usual team absorb support (which can be replicated by anyone).

4. Flame Shield: See above, except switch in a Santa Outfit for the Black Costume in Gaignun's set-up; excuse me if I still remain doubtful about the effectiveness of that.

5. Diamond Shield: Might as well just be "block: Holy" to Time Mage since it naturally gets access to Float. Granted, often a Time Mage will be using Move-MP Up, but personally, there's no reason I'd ever use Diamond Shield on a Time Mage over Aegis Shield or even just Platina Shield, especially when Small Mantle has better M-EV than Vanish Mantle anyway. So...yeah. Next.

6. Platina Shield: Easily one of the more usable shields with Time Mage (and just Time Mage's primary, remember), though that's not saying much really at present, even in the sense of freeing them up to use a Stave that isn't Rainbow Staff or Mace of Zeus. Still, I will grant you that it can be effective for Time Mage, especially with Time Mage's innate access to Float making this a "better" version of Thief Hat (minus that actually somewhat fixing Time Mage's currently awkward as hell Speed).

7. Crystal Shield: I honestly forgot this thing exists because it sucks so damn hard and Time Mages already have access to Rainbow Staff, which I will admit would have more of a use if got access to Shields. (Not that it doesn't have use right now what with Squires being able to equip both and you don't exactly see Rainbow Staff ever used much there despite Squire MA being only a point less than Time Mage's.) Seriously, there's no reason to ever talk about this unless "we" are going to talk about how we're going to change it, especially since the whole "elemental neutral accessory" idea seems to have gone by the wayside and no one, myself included, brought up a way to "fix"/replace this damn thing.


And then we already talked about Kaiser Plate (needs Black Magick, which even you agree with), Genji Shield (was a typo on my part) and Escutcheon II (good, so it has no secondary, meaning everyone uses it more or less equally well, though obviously classes with more C-EV benefit more).

So...yeah. Still not terribly convinced.

*Paladin stuff and Thief C-EV snip*

First and foremost, I don't have a problem with Thief C-EV, especially with Abandon being nerfed as it is. Thief C-EV is a bit of the reason that I think that Defending also needs to be "nerfed" in terms of it still boosting evasion by twice the amount, but that's basically the extent of my "problem" with Thief. I only mentioned it because they really don't need the extra P-EV in addition to Main Gauche, Awareness and all that, which is why it was a counterexample of why we don't just give Shields to everyone.

As for the Paladin stuff, I admittedly somewhat forgot Paladin's PA at the time being slightly higher, which indeed is a factor. Similarly, I can't remember if the C-EV thing was before or after Excalibur and Abandon got nerfed. I don't recall Abandon being much of the reason for that nerf though, especially since I explicitly remember quite a few people griping about Paladin having any measure of C-EV with their level of power even after the PA drop I think. (It's not exactly like Paladins hit like kittens with "only" 10 PA after all.)

You want to propose that Paladins get some C-EV back to FFMaster? Sure, go ahead. I don't have an opinion about it one way or the other at present.

Also, as a fun sidenote, the spellguns are actually working as intended. The changes were meant to encourage people to shoot things with it, instead of comboing them with other skills due to their formerly absurd WP. Their WP was that high to begin with to make the average damage from a spellgun shot reasonable, since 60% of the time it would fire off a tier 1 spell.

I don't recall saying that I didn't understand why their WP was that high to begin with or that they shouldn't be ultimately consistent or even that I don't think they're working as "intended".

I just find it immensely dumb if "working as intended" basically means "if you're any type of mage, bring White Robe and Magic Defend Up or Projectile Guard to avoid getting 2HKO at Worst and sent into Critical with one shot"; this basically translates into "you can never have a team with more 2 mages unless you want to get stuck in a losing 'rez loop' off the bat."

Similarly, I find it dumb that "working as intended" means they still hit at 100% accuracy outside of the Projectile Guard fix, basically obviate attack mages in terms of damage except in the area of AoE and (Faith) Flare & Holy and get powered up just by moving around. At least before you needed to sacrifice your reaction for (the extremely generous in firing) Faith UP and get "hit" (or Cured) if you wanted to do that. Now basically their damage spikes are inevitable due to Pilgrimage unless they get Don't Moved, which is pretty much meaningless against them given their Range 6.

So, yeah, they can be "working as intended" all they want, but I'm not going to act like they're magically fine just because Grand Cross isn't being thoroughly abused with them anymore. If you want to "shot" people in the face so badly, then even if spellguns died, the other three guns and, you know, Longbows & even Crossbows would spontaneously stop existing too. As it stands now, if anything's stopped existing Gun-wise, then it's Stone Gun since there's reason to use that thing if you can get damage already superior to it without specifically having to cure Petrify and wasting a turn on two of your units.

I'm not entirely blaming FFMaster for this given that spellguns have pretty much always been overpowering to me, even since Vanilla, despite their randomness. It just seems like it's even more noticeable now when they're consistent about hitting for 200~ damage strikes on average across the map even on 40 Faith units.

If you don't think spellguns are a problem even as they are now, then there's honestly nothing I can say about the issue that would convince you they need to change again or are better off dead. 

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Waitwaitwait.  I'm not reading 90% of that because it'll make my brain hurt, but I did read your reply about Shields, which I can summarize down to "The class has to perform /work/ to get the most of that Shield? Fuck that!"

So...

Using the same logic that "Time Mage shouldn't get Shields because the only ones it can use without 'work' are the Escutcheon II and Aegis Shield."

Time Mage shouldn't get Staves because the only one it can use without "work" is the Wizard Staff, which you want removed.

Time Mage shouldn't get Hats because the only ones it can use without "work" are the Golden Hairpin and Holy Miter.

Time Mage shouldn't get Clothes because the only ones it can use without "work" are the Wizard Outfit and Black Costume.

Welp, you heard the man, better remove Staves, Hats, and Clothes too.




In seriousness, you missed the point of what Gaignun was saying entirely.  FDC wants Time Mages with 10 SPD.  Some want Time Mages with 1 more MA.  Etc.  Guess what all these things can be found in?  The secondary effects of various Shields.  You give players the choice of which Time Mage buff they ultimately want, and through your own admission open yourself up to a wider array of combos and synergies despite the Time Mage's limited equipment options through things like Mace of Zeus and Mythril Shield, Rainbow Staff + various Shields, etc., as well as giving something unique to Time Mages that they were sorely lacking in compared to other mages when put on the offense.

All you've been doing is using wordiness to draw out the replies to be longer, and longer, and longer, and longer... and you've been so hung up on the goddamn "oh no it might be midcharged the EV won't work oh no" you don't seem to understand what Gaignun was saying at all.  There are plenty of reasons to be against it, but you don't seem to understand why it even wants to be done to get to the point where you can be against it...

[Gaignun]

Are "we" going to start giving things to (lesser) classes in lieu of trying to fix actual problems because just a few items in that category would benefit the class? If that's the case, then why not give Bards innate access to Bows so that Holy Bow could finally see some use? Better yet, why not give all Mages (or, hell, everyone) innate access to Armor if Hats other than Flash Hat are finally going to get more MP? Especially when everyone has trouble with status? Same with giving everyone Clothes. Everyone benefits from elemental absorption, right?

You're taking my counter-argument to a logical extreme.  I said every class enjoys the benefit of a shield to counter your point that Time Mages cannot use shields effectively without secondaries.  Indeed, every class benefits from status resistance and elemental absorption, too.  That doesn't mean every class gets them.

In terms of balance, stats of course balance out shield access, which is part of the reason why I can't currently get behind your proposal: not only does it throw any stat "changes" to Time Mage into further chaos by adding in another option--"Leave Time Mage's stats as they are and just give them Shields"--but also doesn't solve the underlying problem of said stats...you know, being horrible. Or, at least, being the exact same as Mediator and then blown away in terms of HP. Time Mages don't really have jack-of-all-trade stats, much less good ones at present.

Would you mind specifying which stats in particular are holding the Time Mage back?  The way I see it, a Time Mage:

• with an Aegis Shield will match Priests and Oracles in terms of MA (with silence resistance to boot!)


• with a Kaiser Plate will match Summoners and nearly Wizards and Scholars in terms of MA when using Fire, Ice, and Lightning spells, (which is pretty limited, but that's perfectly fine.  I don't want Time Mages stealing Wizards' thunder -- or, rather, bolt.  Hah hah...)


• with an elemental shield will sacrifice base stats for extra elemental resistance

The shield's evasion covers for the poor base HP, making Time Mages squishier, but harder to hit -- a unique role among mage classes.  As for Time Mage's primaries, all are status-based -- well, except Comet, which hits 100% of the time and doesn't scale -- so none strongly depend on base stats.  They can use their primaries just as well now as they ever will.

(As an aside, I will grant that a Glacier Gunner can't get past your set-up...easily. This is of course assuming that he doesn't have Shield Break [instead of Armor Break] or just have friends with Oil [or with Shield Break/Weapon Break/Armor Break]. Unless you're going to tell me that this already too-specialized, only-two-of set-up [that currently screws over the Time Mage's MP] also necessitates wearing Diamond Armlet or 108 Gems, which block Oil but leaves the user vulnerable to Silence now as well, or using Maintenance as a Support or both.

And all is well in the FFH universe.  Heaven forbid there is no counter to my setup.  At least gunners rock Shield Break in addition to Armor Break or need to spray around Oil now.  Using magic guns just got (a little) more difficult.

As my own aside: is it possible to have Oil simply add "Weak: Element" without overriding "Absorb: Element"?  When I proposed the change to Oil all those months ago, I didn't expect Oil to overwrite absorption.  What are other people's thoughts on this suggestion?

Basically you're telling me that spellguns aren't a problem just because some obscure set-up that drastically cuts down your actual options and can only be used as a two-of exists and might beat it. This despite the fact that said Gunners can just Hawk's Eye your face off, Oil you up and paddle you that way.

...Yeah. You might as just say "hey, Spellguns aren't a problem so long as you make every team you have two units with Projectile Guard and two Time Mages with either Black Magick or Summon Magick." Sounds fun.

I didn't say magic guns aren't a problem.  I simply gave an example of what shields make possible for a Time Mage.  No other mage class will be able to block Fire, Ice, and Lightning damage without utilising their support ability or accessory slot.

Spellguns either need to die or turn into "Nether" Spellguns so they don't get powered up by just walking around since obviously lowering their WP and making them consistent didn't do jack.)

Spell guns are a whole other can of worms.  We (and I'm not even sure who "we" is anymore) redesigned spell guns to remain a solid DPS option.  In fact, on average, they do less DPS now than they did when they were triggering three tiers of Black Magic. (On second thought, they might actually do a bit more, but with the removal of tier 2-3 procs, there's a smaller chance that they'll 1HKO their target.)  What's currently out of control is how they're being paired with Pilgrimage, which is boosting their solid DPS into ridiculously solid DPS.  Personally, I would kill Pilgrimage before magic guns, but seeing that Pilgrimage was just introduced with patch 1.39, I doubt that this suggestion is very popular.    Something else needs to change.  Making them "Nether" gets around the whole Warpath/Pilgrimage problem, so I think it's a good idea.

[Malroth]

Mev should work on spellguns  and there should be an additional piece of equipment (Crystal shield?) that duplicates the effects of the white robe

[Gaignun]

Subjecting the guns to M-EV is indeed another option.  If we subject them to M-EV, but keep them boostable with Pilgrimage, players will surely start to stack more M-EV.

As for making a second White Robe, the problem with that is that it adversely affects Black Magick, as well.  That's why we removed Venetian Shield in the first place.

[The Damned]

(I've only been putting "we" in quotations because only small percentage of the people actually involved with ARENA actually post here. Seriously, outside of the newer Malroth, it's basically the same half dozen people ever responding, yourself [Gaignun] and myself included. And since I don't want to assume that anyone automatically agrees with anyone else....)

Okay, I'll make this reply shorter (not like that's saying much), which should be easy since I was tired of talking about this after the initial reply (which just proves how much I can ramble when bored).

That said, before I forget, I have to ask something: Is there any reason ARENA isn't using Xifanie's hack that puts a limit on stat boosting and reductions?

I ask both because I rarely talk with FFMaster directly and because it seems like using it would solve a bunch of things, like Mimes being basically still only used for Song or Dance still and Quickening quickly getting absurdly powerful.

Waitwaitwait.  *snip*

Only reason I'm harping on the EV so much is because Gaignun seems to be saying that we should leave Time Mage's currently crappy stats alone for Shields. Well, that and getting mid-charged happens a lot because the AI is dumb about that too much of the time even if you know to expect it. So, yes, again, Shields would benefit Time Mage quite well, just like they would basically any class save maybe Samurai & Ninja. "Even" I can see that if you feel I'm missing the point by harping perhaps a bit much on "OMG! UR LIK GOT MID-CHARED DUDE!" [/physical pain]

Thing is, getting mid-charged with their currently weird speed is a real and constant problem, especially with their crap HP, which giving Shields isn't actually fixing or even really addressing. I don't deny that Zephyr Shield would "fix" that somewhat by bumping their speed up to 10, but part of Gaignun's argument for giving Time Mage's Shields in the first place was because Shields have a bunch of M-EV...except for Zephyr Shield & Genji Shield.

I mean, 5% M-EV is better than 0% M-EV, but...yeah. Shrug.

I'm curious: What "more valid" reasons do you have against it?

As I've said, I ultimately wouldn't be against Time Mages potentially getting Shields. I just want us to "decide" on what happens with their stats (or doesn't) and with Staves (and Crystal Shield & Rainbow Staff & that possible accessory) first. I don't think that's asking that much, walls of text aside.

Well, those things and maybe considering that another mage--*cough*re-statted Scholar*cough*--should get a Shield first/as well if it's going to bother having access to Swords.

(Also, I wasn't talking about Wizard Staff being one of the "usable" ones. I mean, it's decent and all, but we're already been over why I think it should die and don't see "But C Bag has less power!" as all that legitimate of a counter-argument. The two of us just don't seem to agree there, which I'm fine with.

As for Hats & Clothes, well, most Time Mages don't really use Clothes anyway and Hats are necessary because Time Mage HP is already crap without them and there aren't any other options. I'd be fine with them getting access to Ribbons instead though now that you mention it.... [/purposely misses point])

You're taking my counter-argument to a logical extreme.  I said every class enjoys the benefit of a shield to counter your point that Time Mages cannot use shields effectively without secondaries.  Indeed, every class benefits from status resistance and elemental absorption, too.  That doesn't mean every class gets them.

That was kind of my probably too-fixated point: Where do we stop exactly giving beneficial equipment to classes to solve things that are perhaps better off fixed with stat changes? Especially with as much as equipment changes in ARENA?

It's a "slippery slope" even if it isn't a huge one since giving a mage (or two) access to Shields isn't so wildly out there. I just think other relevant issues should be "conclusively" discussed first is all, especially since you were the primary person who suggested changing Time Mage's stats in the first place IIRC.

I mean, yes, you can of course change your mind, but I'm just curious as to...why you suddenly decided their stats were fine even if they get Shields. That's (part of) what I don't get.

Would you mind specifying which stats in particular are holding the Time Mage back?

Basically their crappy HP and weird Speed--it either "needs" to go 8 or 10--as you pointed out originally. They could maybe use some MP as well, but I'm ambivalent about that. Their PA is obviously irrelevant even though; not sure why I thought it was even "decent" for a mage--probably confused it with Oracle's. As for their MA, well, I actually don't think giving them +1 more MA would really do much for them given pretty much all of their abilities are MA+X% or...Comet.

The shield's evasion covers for the poor base HP, making Time Mages squishier, but harder to hit -- a unique role among mage classes.

Eh...being squishy is hardly a unique role among mage classes. [/purposely missing point.]

Though...now that you mention it, I don't think it would break anything if Time Mages got more C-EV regardless and the most of any mages. That would certainly help on the "unique" front whether they get Shields or not.

As for Time Mage's primaries, all are status-based -- well, except Comet, which hits 100% of the time and doesn't scale -- so none strongly depend on base stats.  They can use their primaries just as well now as they ever will.

Basically why I don't think +1 MA would really "fix" anything; I was more interested in Aegis Shield (for Time Mage) because it blocks Silence and has a crapload of M-EV.

As for Time Mages being status-based, that's kind of their problem....

spoiler: Time Mage as a status mage? Or...?

They're only mages that are really "in-between" status/support-mage and damage/attack mage. I mean, yeah, the majority of their skills are status, though one could easily argue that Haste & Haste 2 and Slow & Slow 2 are basically the same skill in this respect. But they then have five weird damage spells in the form of Comet, Balance, Sinkhole and Demi & Demi 2. Balance & Sinkhole are utterly conditional, Comet basically gets walled by Auto Potion for the price of foregoing Faith entirely and Demi, Demi 2 & Sinkhole are utterly dependent on your opponent's HP.

(Balance basically being useless to Time Mages at present is part of the reason I think they could use at least a bit more HP because that spell is seriously only used on armored units, which is...fine ultimately I guess. It's not like I expect armored units to stop using it. It would just be good if it's primary class could, you know, actually use it well [or better] and we moved Dia for a similar reason.)

I think that might explain why its stats are so...lackluster or basically a mimcry of Mediator, which is another "weird" class but manages to not have as many problems between all its skills being instant and unavoidable, getting instant mass Sleep & instant Paralyze and getting access to a hell of a lot better weaponry and HP. Oracles and Priests are more "status"/support-mages and have the best HP of mages to help back this up. Wizards, Scholars and Summoners all have the squishier HP because they blow people the hell up and (attack) mages are "supposed" to glass cannons anyway.

Meanwhile, Time Mage is a hybrid status & damage spell-caster that gets completely crappy HP despite its sources of damage being a lot less dependable (sans Comet) than literally every other class above (even Oracle & Mediator). Additionally, it can "only" manipulate four statuses as it is, two of them being utterly stat dependent in terms of effectiveness and one of them not really doing much with spell-guns steamrolling over everyone at present. Even Wizard gets more status if we're talking about just the chance to add status.

Granted, Haste & Slow can be and usually are pretty damn important, but Hasting (far) more reliably is already on two other classes right now and pretty much everyone's already agreed Squire's Yell needs a buff; Time Mage's Haste has also been universally agreed to need a buff, but it will still have competition which is also...fine. Similarly, Stop is good and can be quite devastating, but arguably it's ultimately inferior to Sleep...which Mediator gets an instant version of. This when it's already the same or better than Time Mage in every way stat-wise sans a bit of MP. That leaves Don't Move, which got a buff to be usable and can be good, but as said above is a bit...lacking, if only due to the current "Pilgrimage to Spellgun Mecca" metagame.

*Speaking of Spellgun stuff*

Oh, okay. The way I was reading that, you seemed to be saying that it was a guaranteed solution to the spell-gun issue, which seemed...odd considering what else Snipe contains and Oil being available on multiple things.

As for fixing it with M-EV, meh... That doesn't really seem like it would be that helpful even if no one gets it automatically. I'd much rather they be Nether though if they have to exist at all since M-EV doesn't really "solve" the problem of their ridiculous damage (even without Pilgrimage); it just delays the "inevitable" even when you actually have it.

Still, it would be something that theoretically makes spell-guns less overpowering than what they are now and it remains a valid option (unless trying to make them go by M-EV breaks the game or something...weird).

[Gaignun]

...I'm just curious as to...why you suddenly decided their stats were fine even if they get Shields. That's (part of) what I don't get.

I'm just stirring the pot, I guess.  We can change their base stats, give them shields, or both.  Shields are a pretty huge boost, so I'm willing to keep their base stats poor if we go that way.

Basically their crappy HP and weird Speed--it either "needs" to go 8 or 10...

Well, in this case, the Zephyr Shield would boost their SP to 10 for you.  Setting their base SP to 10 and keeping them from being able to equip shields is equivalent to permanently equipping them with a Zephyr Shield (without the 5% evasion).  Of course, there is no -1 SP shield, so the SP stat won't be able to fall to 8.

This suggestion aside, I am also sensitive to the suggestions being made about Scholars.  I kind of like the idea of having a tank mage in the game.  One problem with this, though, is that most of Lore is heavily MA-based.  In fact, Time Magick is better suited as the primary skill set of a tank mage.  I think it would be better if we make Time Mages the tank class (ie. give them a massive boost in HP, a boost in PA, drop their SP to 8, possibly drop their MA to 8 -- although we won't want to do that if we expect these tank mages to menace their foes with staves -- and give them shields and a wider variety of weapons) and take Scholars weapons and PA away.  The Scholar sprite seems so much sturdier than the Time Mage sprite, though.  From an artistic viewpoint, I'd expect scholars to be the tank class.  Maybe we can swap sprites while we're at it.

As a matter of fact, I like this idea so much that I'm willing to propose a new set of base stats for Time Mages:

Code Select Expand


Male       HP  MP  SP  PA  MA Move Jump CEv
Time Mage 154  62  08  10  07    3    3   5
Scholar   113  86  08  04  10    3    3   5

Female     HP  MP  SP  PA  MA Move Jump CEv
Time Mage 144  67  08  08  09    3    3   5
Scholar   106  92  08  03  12    3    3   5


Time Mages would be comparable to Squires, but would have +1 MA, -10 HP, and -5 CEv.  I pulled these numbers off the top of my head, so shoot them down as you please.

Equipment would be something like

Time Mage: Swords, Staves, Books, Poles, Shields, Hats, Clothes, Robes, Accessories
Scholar: Rods, Hats, Clothes, Robes, Accessories

[Dokurider]

I'd rather see Time Mages gain/lose 1 SPD, leaning towards 10 SPD, then adding shields. However, I would definitely like to see a shield wielding mage, preferably Oracles.

[The Damned]

(Good to see that I wasn't that out of bounds in suggesting that Oracles would be among the more "deserving" of Shields even though at present their only real problem is Mimic Daravon utterly obviating Sleep. Well, that and Beguile being so damn finicky, but that's because Charm is so all or nothing compared to most other statuses....)

Okay, I'll keep this post "short", partly because I'm sure Raven is already irked by me again as it is. Of course, that wrongly gives the implication that he ever stops being irked by me, so....

Since I'm speaking "at" him/to him, I figured I might as well say now that I thought of a potential compromise to the whole Wizard Staff thing just a couple of hours ago:

Raven, how do you feel about giving the +2 MA from the current Wizard Staff either to Healing Staff, which would then lose the Strengthen Holy & Dark buff (that respectively go to the redone White Staff & Wizard Staff), or to Rainbow Staff?

Hell, you could even maybe give it to Gold Staff if you want since that's currently the only damn Staff worth attacking with (at present) anyway, especially if you're worried about damage on +2 MA option as you brought up when you mentioned how C Bag wasn't enough a while ago.

I just want Wizard Staff to open up to be something other than a needless carbon copy of Wizard Rod, especially when C Bag exists for everyone.

I'm just stirring the pot, I guess.  We can change their base stats, give them shields, or both. Shields are a pretty huge boost, so I'm willing to keep their base stats poor if we go that way.

I see. That's more than fair. It just seemed kind of sudden.

Regardless, sorry if it seemed like I was biting your head off in between making your eyes bleed.

*Tank Mage stuff between Time Mage and Scholar*

Hmmm...that's quite an interesting idea, especially since it works and fits on a lot of levels despite being such a seemingly drastic change. It fits with Time Mage's hybrid mage status. It gives them a further niche with the Shield thing by being the only (?) mage to have Shields. It gives them better self-healing from the Demi spells. It gives them a less awkward speed (even if it thus makes Zephyr Shield less usable for them without other equipment sacrifice, but meh, small loss). And it finally, finally would enable Time Mage to able to effectively use its own damn Balance spell.

Of course, it's not entirely without faults, but aside from the stats probably needing to be more fine-tuned, those faults seem to be more with outlying things. Things such as it being such a drastic change (on top of everything else that's maybe going into 139 already) or something still needing to happen with Scholar obviating Wizard even though Lore is so MA-oriented as you pointed out.

Regardless, it's something to definitely think over now. Hmmm....

P.S. Since it came up when you originally suggested how to change Time Mage's stats for the better, how do you feel about Priest's stats now (and in relation to all this)?

[Malroth]

I'd say Take 2 MA away from Scholars but they should be the ones to get shields as they're the mages with the best weapon selection anyway.  (but the all map affecting lores should get a boost) 

[reinoe]

(but the all map affecting lores should get a boost)

I agree with this because I have several teams that spam lore.

[Malroth]

I'm also starting to be a fan of Un-Fury based gun damage, having the guns proc nether fire/bolt/ice with MEV applying to the shots

Also AOE2 Vert 3 for Dispel magic so it can be an effective masamune counter

[Gaignun]

Since it came up when you originally suggested how to change Time Mage's stats for the better, how do you feel about Priest's stats now...?

I am kind of indifferent toward priest stats at the moment.  If we're going to drop Time Mages to 8 SP, then priests could still be bumped up the 9 SP, if only for the sake of variety.  But if 9 SP is truly awkward for caster types, then let's not bother.

... I would definitely like to see a shield wielding mage, preferably Oracles.

Oracles are indeed another option, but I am hesitant to give them access, myself.  Unlike Time Mages, Oracles are blessed with a solid skill set and decent stats.  For the low cost of 400 JP, Oracles may equip themselves with Defense UP.  Throw on Aegis Shields and they're ready to handle almost anything that's thrown their way.

They're definitely suited for shields, but, in my opinion, giving them shields makes them too good.

I'm also starting to be a fan of Un-Fury based gun damage, having the guns proc nether fire/bolt/ice with MEV applying to the shots

Let's have a look at the damage.  I'll consider Glacier Gun since it's the strongest.  Using current values for Nether Ice and Glacier Gun, damage output from a user with 40 Brave is

Base: 75-105
With Elemental Strengthening and Magic Attack UP: 126-176

Given that this is as strong as they'll ever get, that's pretty weak for a gun that would take M-EV.  By comparison, Romanda Gun's optimal damage is 78-110 (base) and 102-143 (with Attack UP), and that bypasses P-EV and is insensitive to the target's elemental resistance.  Stone gun is even better, at 113-158 (base) and 151-211 (with Attack UP).  If we use Nether spells, we're going to have to keep letting the magic guns hit at 100%, and even then they'll be pretty unattractive.  Boosting their WP isn't an option, because we'll run into issues with Grand Cross and Kagesougi again.

I propose three options:

1) Make magic guns mildly strong, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.  This keeps the guns dependable for both dealing damage and healing party members that might be stacking M-EV.  I would like to have the guns proc a Nether spell that is stronger than the current ones, though.  (Nether Ice's current formula is MA*8; I would be comfortable with a Nether spell whose formula is MA*9 or MA*10)

2) Keep magic guns strong, but subject them to M-EV.  If a Nether-equivalent Ice 2 spell is made for Glacier Gun, then the gun's damage would be 103-145 (base) and 173-242 (maximised).  This is equal to its current damage output, with the only difference being that it can no longer be boosted with Pilgrimage.  This puts it on par with Stone Gun.  Its lack of "initial: Petrify" and slightly higher maximised damage makes up for its susceptibility to elemental resistance and M-EV and the general larger number of Setiemson wearers over Cherche wearers.  The high damage gives players a reason to stack M-EV, or to continue equipping Projectile Guard.  As a bonus, we can reduce the JP cost of Projectile Guard (from 300 to 200~250) to give players an easier time designing counter strategies.

3) Make magic guns use the current Nether formulas, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.  This will lead to the demise of magic guns.  Aside from in specialized elemental absorption teams, I highly doubt many players will consider using this version of magic guns.  Maybe players will finally start equipping their archers with those longbows and crossbows that have been neglected for so long.  Either that or they'll go back to using Stone Guns.  I bet they'll do the latter.