FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I'd like to point out that you told me not to assume, but your evasion edits made a lot of my points about Shields and Mages correct, from what I can see from a quick skim.  :p

God, someone needs to find a way to do the whole Global evasion for Shields / Weapon Guard / Mantles (or, if already known, get motivated enough to make such ASMs).  We could do a lot of interesting things with evasion with those in place, imo.  It'd also make which position you attack from more important in general, instead of just against units with high C-EV and a "Am I behind the enemy, Y/N?", something that I think would make the vastly reduced movement ranges both more easily justified, and make finding the best use for that more restricted movement harder since there are more potentially viable options.

I had a really good idea, but I've forgotten it somehow typing the above paragraph.  @.@

Meanwhile... if we removed Jump +1, and moved Jump +2 and Jump +3 down to earlier Jobs (or, if Fly is going to be available on an early mage class, just remove them entirely besides *maybe* Jump +3?), could we add some new Movement abilities or something in their place?  If we're ASM'ing the hell out of this and making the Movement slot more than Teleport vs Move +3 anyway, seems sensible to toss some of the movements that never get used and make them into something more usable (see: Counter Tackle -> Counter Spin Fist).   Same for Supports / Reactions, but I can't think of as many "useless" abilities in those two areas to replace.  I was going to say that Cup of Life one or whatever, but with vastly neutered Move stats that ability actually becomes usable in its current form, save how hard it is to get to.

Random thought: Since we're cutting the Speed stat down quite a bit, how about simply making all growths equal and making the class multipliers the determining factor in stats?  Makes leveling characters far less tedious.  Less customizable, sure, but also less tedious, and tediousness is something I don't see the need for in anything meant to be called a "game", even if I am a slightly insane power grinder.

[Asmo X]

I've been a proponent of multiplier-only stats for ages now. Please do this. I have always hated the different growth rates so fucking much.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Also, for Daggers, I was thinking making them 100% accurate (sensible, considering Daggers are assassination weapons instead of melee weapons) with low damage and a medium proc (Poison, etc level status).  Makes them kind of similar to Flails, but those specialize in outputting rather sizable damage, whereas Daggers are mostly about consistent lower-end damage and status under this.  This would also make them different from Ninja Swords, meaning Spell Edge can keep its Don't Act and Ninja Swords can stay Two Swords-enabled.  Still no idea what to do with Sasuke Knife, but I feel it should have something... maybe +1 PA, or even making them 100% accurate with no proc so they follow the original 1.3 trend of being proc-less Dagger 2.0?

Or, another thought I was entertaining was making all Daggers have a 6.25% Dead attached to whatever other procs they already have (to simulate an assassination) instead of the 100% accuracy, but that'd probably be silly.

[philsov]

I'd like to point out that you told me not to assume, but your evasion edits made a lot of my points about Shields and Mages correct, from what I can see from a quick skim. :p

Of the natural shield wearers, their C.Ev is 10 max (squires and geos at 10, knights and lancers at 5) and lancer is only natural shield wearer with above average weapon guard - which is a welcome boost to the lancer class.  The best classes with C.Ev are not shield wearers, and W.Ev is mostly tied between melee-oriented weapons and those for the mage types.

If we're ASM'ing the hell out of this and making the Movement slot more than Teleport vs Move +3 anyway, seems sensible to toss some of the movements that never get used and make them into something more usable

You seem to misunderstand.  I look at Hex/ASM code and its complete gibberish.  I'm simply adding in a lot of ASM hacks others have done.  Counter Spin Fist is a function of fftpatcher.

Random thought: Since we're cutting the Speed stat down quite a bit, how about simply making all growths equal and making the class multipliers the determining factor in stats? Makes leveling characters far less tedious. Less customizable, sure, but also less tedious, and tediousness is something I don't see the need for in anything meant to be called a "game", even if I am a slightly insane power grinder.

How in the world would changing class growth make gaining experience any more or less tedious?

I've been a proponent of multiplier-only stats for ages now. Please do this. I have always hated the different growth rates so fucking much.

And... I added growths into the game.  I'll tone them down some, though.  At the current scheme a career time mage going over to monk has 16 PA to the natural monk's 22 at 99.  I'll aim to make the difference 3 points max at 99.  Because by playing "normally" you'll never get to 99 in the first place, so the reality of the situation will be one or two points.

Additionally the classes with the best growth are also among the bottom tier as far as fighting is concerned, and I think there should be a reward for trying to stay a knight throughout the game when you could simply be a ninja and one-shot a majority of things.

Edit:  Distribute moving down to the priest tree sound good?  Maybe oracle.

[Sephirot24]

I say give Fly to Oracles and Float (movement) to Time Mages (as they are now). Distribute to the Priest doesn't sound bad at all.

One thing you'll have to be really careful now is weapons that used SP in their formula, because of the huge speed nerf. Daggers, Bows and Ninja swords? I'd say raise their WP, but then you also gotta be careful about Throw and other stuff that uses their WP. Changing their formula might do the trick. If you halved SP, why not make the formula WP * { [PA+(2*SP)] / 2 } ... is that even possible or you'll have to ASM that?

@ Knives: making them ignore EV sounds fine to me. Given their low power, I don't think it's too much. This way, they could retain their WP * [ (PA + SP) / 2 ] formula.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You seem to misunderstand.  I look at Hex/ASM code and its complete gibberish.  I'm simply adding in a lot of ASM hacks others have done.  Counter Spin Fist is a function of fftpatcher.

1. lrn2base12?

2. Go make a code junky your bitch?

:p

How in the world would changing class growth make gaining experience any more or less tedious?

I'm not stuck leveling in 1 class ad-nauseum, and then grinding JP in a completely different class if I want anything resembling good stat growths.

I'm also not stuck grinding JP to unlock said Job to grind in without gaining too many levels.

And I further don't end up bawwing my eyes out because I can't get a late game Orlandu with good stats because he already came in at 50something.

Etc.

It remedies a lot more than it initially sounds.

Edit:  Distribute moving down to the priest tree sound good?  Maybe oracle.

Priest sounds cool beans.  Wouldn't make as much sense to be on Oracle, and Priest needs a bit more than just Magic Defense UP for people not intending to use White Magic to spend their JP on.  Granted, Oracle is similar in that regard, but Priest makes more sense for it imo.

At this rate, we'll have no good abilities left to put on Bards / Dancers in terms of R/S/M besides Move +2, but between 1.3 and all these cuts to Speed Growth, their skillsets just got a lot better anyway... which is honestly how I think I prefer it.  Less reason to killself trying to open it for almost every character, but still well worth doing since the classes have become far better in their own right.




Also, Sephirot24's post made me remember a simple solution to Sasuke Knife - make it PA +1 instead of Sp +1.  Means the same thing in terms of the damage formula, but no ridiculous Speed boosting and differentiates it from whatever we do to Daggers in the end.

[philsov]

One thing you'll have to be really careful now is weapons that used SP in their formula, because of the huge speed nerf. Daggers, Bows and Ninja swords?

noted, thanks for that.  I'll throw something together for that.

Go make a code junky your bitch?

all... 3 of them? =\

Etc.

It remedies a lot more than it initially sounds.

No, all your pain is self chosen.   Easytype is the base.  You need neither max stats nor even special characters, much less max stat specials, to beat it.  If you want super-max stats, be prepared to do the same thing.  You can just level-as-you-play instead of making JP and level grinding mutually exclusive.

Growth variance is staying in, but the disparity gap -is- getting decreased.

At this rate, we'll have no good abilities left to put on Bards / Dancers in terms of R/S/M besides Move +2,  

They're keeping PA/MA save, still have move +2, and never had supports in the first place.  Both lose fly, which I doubt anyone took.

[LastingDawn]

Wait, would Face Up and Brave Up be coming back then? Would they go to the two classes?

[philsov]

Wait, would Face Up and Brave Up be coming back then? Would they go to the two classes?

I... completely forgot about those two.  Indeed, they're making a comeback

edit:  Aside, Arch, wtf did you do to these events?  Inside of Lionel and the graveyard have swapped O.o

[RavenOfRazgriz]

No, all your pain is self chosen.   Easytype is the base.  You need neither max stats nor even special characters, much less max stat specials, to beat it.  If you want super-max stats, be prepared to do the same thing.  You can just level-as-you-play instead of making JP and level grinding mutually exclusive.

Growth variance is staying in, but the disparity gap -is- getting decreased.

I'm still not seeing a reason.  If the differences are meant to not even be noticeable until Level 99 (or barely be noticeable by a "normally" played end game situation), why even have them?

That's stupid, imo.  Making them flat growths serves the same purpose for the people who play the game "normally" while not leaving characters slightly crippled in about half the job tree near the higher levels.

You're telling me they won't be noticeable unless I level to 99.  Yet since the base is easytype, I shouldn't ever need to do that.  Therefore, I'm seeing no reason why class growths are superior to flat growths with more powerful multipliers.

They're keeping PA/MA save, still have move +2, and never had supports in the first place.  Both lose fly, which I doubt anyone took.

I TOOK FLY.

;_;

I... completely forgot about those two. Indeed, they're making a comeback

So I'm assuming that Br / Fa modifiers don't last after battle now "officially"?

But still cool.  The question now seems to be where to put them, I'm assuming.

Brave Up on Samurai, Face Up on... Mediator?

Samurai and Knight don't have Reaction commands anymore, and Brave Up fits more on Samurai than Knight.  Face Up is an iffy fit on Mediator, but they need a good Reaction to learn because Finger Guard is beyond levels of worthless in a 1.3 game.

Which reminds me, if there are any more Reactions we wanna throw in, we should toss Finger Guard! Fucking useless shit doesn't even dodge all the good Talk Skills anymore anyway.  Isn't there some kind of Counter Reflect in Patcher or something?  I've never looked, so I wouldn't know, but I've heard of it... I think.

[LastingDawn]

That was my doing, Philsov... it was to make the switch much more complete and easier to fathom, for the 1v1 Vormav event.

[Sephirot24]

The only growth that I'd be in favor of changing equal to every class would be SP.
But as Phil said,

the classes with the best growth are also among the bottom tier as far as fighting is concerned, and I think there should be a reward for trying to stay a knight throughout the game when you could simply be a ninja and one-shot a majority of things.

Br UP and Fa UP should mod at least 7 pts. I don't remember very well how much they used to mod.. (not permanently obviously).

[philsov]

That was my doing, Philsov... it was to make the switch much more complete and easier to fathom, for the 1v1 Vormav event.

I figured that may've been a factor.  No bother, I'll just make sure to have them keep their offsets  Keeping the 1v1 is something I'd like to do, it's an awesome piece of work.

You're telling me they won't be noticeable unless I level to 99.  Yet since the base is easytype, I shouldn't ever need to do that.  Therefore, I'm seeing no reason why class growths are superior to flat growths with more powerful multipliers.

I'll say it again.  "'I'm aiming to make the difference 3 points max at 99."  Which, for the math illiterate, means you will obviously see an effect before level 99.  Maybe even somewhere around 33!  For a point of comparison, 3 points is also the male/female PA/MA gap.

The reasons are as such:
- conceptual.  If you spend your entire career as a certain class, there should be an opportunity cost and gain to doing such.  
- as also stated before, the classes with the best growth are also suboptimal (imo) for many battle scenarios, and it serves as an incentive to be a weaker class.

If the growths were so meager that a difference wouldn't be noticeable, you'd be agreeing with me very loudly.

I TOOK FLY.

;_;

And, like... actually equipped it on your people?  I gave it to my dancers/bards just to see the pretty gold Master star, but teleport overshadowed it far too much.

So I'm assuming that Br / Fa modifiers don't last after battle now "officially"?

But still cool.  The question now seems to be where to put them, I'm assuming.

Brave Up on Samurai, Face Up on... Mediator?

Yeah, it's official.  I know the poll states otherwise, but looking through the abilities (and replacing negotiate and death sentence, rip) there's enough space in talk skill land for both the new skills and older ones.  

the only repercussions are the br boost from mandalia/mustadio are lost and gone forever.  Alas.

Regarding a reactions, I'd like to see Br and Fa up symmetrical.  I can throw meatbone slash down from monk onto knight, give Br Up to Samu and Fa up to Sage.  That way everyone has a reaction (Sage's distribute is shifting anyways) and it's win-win all around.  I'd rather it not be on bard/dancer unless I make them both available to both classes.  I may pull the same with MA/PA save, tbh.  

Yes finger guard sucks balls but Reflect does nothing.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

And, like... actually equipped it on your people?  I gave it to my dancers/bards just to see the pretty gold Master star, but teleport overshadowed it far too much.

My Thief needed something to chase Zalmo with, and his Time Mage JP had already been spent on Haste 2 and Short Charge (iirc).  Fly is really cool when you're sporting a Rubber Costume anyway, since said Thief has 5 move and literally flies over chapels as awesomesauce leeks from his shoes.

Then, there was the Outside of Limberry Castle where I needed something like Teleport again, and my Lancer doubled as a master Bard and had enough move without Teleport gambling, so I saved the JP and went with what I had.

I believe same Lancer may have used it Outside of Lionel Castle for the epic lulz.  I know he used it somewhere in Chapter 3.

Regarding a reactions, I'd like to see Br and Fa up symmetrical.  I can throw meatbone slash down from monk onto knight, give Br Up to Samu and Fa up to Sage.  That way everyone has a reaction (Sage's distribute is shifting anyways) and it's win-win all around.  I'd rather it not be on bard/dancer unless I make them both available to both classes.  I may pull the same with MA/PA save, tbh.

Works.

Imo make PA Save / MA Save each available on both Bard and Dancer, so each job rounds out with two Reaction abilities.  Fixes the problem right there.

Yes finger guard sucks balls but Reflect does nothing.

Lies.

Finger Guard does nothing.  I was Mimic Daravon'd through a Finger Guard at the Colliery before.  I cried.

Reflect at least lets me Spell bounce, or suicide a guy into some Black Mages while everyone else falls back out of bounced Spell range.  It's more useful than Finger Guard, for sure, so until someone hacks in something better may as well go with the best we have no?

I'll reply to the other thing later, I'm not in the best of moods atm so I don't want to touch anything with the words "math illiterate" and debate the impact of a single PA point over a "standard" playthrough since it'll be rather bloody since I'm also lamenting over a broken USB stick and finding a way to fix it that doesn't cost me my first born child that I've yet to conceive.

[philsov]

nono.  the reflect reaction ability literally does nothing.  

[RavenOfRazgriz]

nono.  the reflect reaction ability literally does nothing.  

Oh.

I c.

*cracks whip*

FIX IT YOU LAZY NON-HEX-READING SOB.

...It's STILL more useful than Finger Guard, btw.

[philsov]

+PA to sasuke knives is fine.

As for daggers... I'm still at a loss.  The only way to make them 100% (currently) is to also give them the Gun formula -- WP * WP.  The mediators and chemists are rather boned out of this deal, because they already get guns.  As far as damage is concerned, they can synch up quite well with the desired levels, that is, slightly weaker (25%) or so relative to what the ninja swords are possible of -- which is the trade off for being 100%, especially in this patch.  

And, no, raven, before you ask this is too much/too minor to ASM, since I'd have to change the base formula, which also means somehow seperating ninja swords/longbows from it at the same time.  

So this'll probably happen, and then chemists will gain the ability to wield books as well for flavor and non redundancy.

Also front page edited to include new charge times for everything.  TBH most are fine, the only thing warranting a change are summon, song, and dance, which got a small increase in CTR.

[philsov]

!

Why didn't I include this earlier?

1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

[Archael]

Lies.

Finger Guard does nothing. I was Mimic Daravon'd through a Finger Guard at the Colliery before. I cried.

Finger Guard stops all talk skills except Refute, Threaten, Preach, and Praise (basically the 1.3 exclusive ones)

it works vs all others

stop lying to urself!

[philsov]

obviously he just needs 100 Br.