FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Dokurider]

Are you guys even sure that just swapping from a Faith Spell to a Nether Spell is going to automatically take on the Nether properties, or is it just going to just take the Y value out of the spell and keep on trucking?

[FFMaster]

It should be fine. It just loads XA = WP instead of XA = MA. If we really wanted, we could make it shoot things like Grand Cross as well.

[Dokurider]

Kagesougi in a can, eh?

[Barren]

I was thinking about the innocent status. Let's say we have a cursed ring unit with flash hat, does that lower the chances of raise 2 hitting? because even when equipped with a aegis shield which gives 30% M-EV Raise 2 can still hit at a high rate (at least that's what I remember)

[FFMaster]

Raise 2 isn't evadable. Innocent status will reduce hit rate though.

[Barren]

do you think it should be considering that it would help an undead unit with innocent or would it be too much evasion

[Gaignun]

Does M-EV apply when using Raise 2 on dead units?

Also, is anyone comfortable with letting EV apply when performing?

And perhaps a status gun as well. If anything that can replace mythril gun it can be a gun that inflicts status.

I don't mind this suggestion.  Make it proc something silly, like Innocent or Faith.

[TrueLight]

Does M-EV apply when using Raise 2 on dead units?

No, the only things that apply are faith(caster & target), innocent, faith(status), zodiac compatibility and MA to an extent.

As for performing having EV...I'm neutral on it. It would be interesting to see some evasion builds on performers.

Status guns seems like a fun idea. Although we need to find some statuses fit for it.

[Barren]

Maybe we can do a gun that inflicts faith by chance like Tetragrammation.

If you all know the anime Chrono Crusade, its a gun with high power against demons with low backlash developed by "Elder" Hamilton for the final confrontation against Aion, is given to Rosette by the Father Remington and later used by Chrono.

That can replace the mythril gun I think. It doesn't need 2 MA really

[The Damned]

(I'm neutral to a bag healing on hit though I lean towards it, surprisingly neutral to Raise 2 taking evasion, surprisingly against Performing taking evasion and against a Faith-adding gun, though that's partly dependent on how it would add Faith, how frequently and the CT of the Faith status itself.)

Speaking of which, if Solution (and possibly Preach) are able to be made more usable, then Innocent (and by extension Faith) might have to have their CTs lessened. Even if the Innocent status isn't as huge as a "fuck you" to faith-based magick as it was in vanilla, where it basically negated it, it still greatly minimizes the damage here and it being readily applicable for 64 turns could be a...problem. This especially since, if we're splitting up Refute, I would suggest neither split ability cancel Innocent (or Faith or Charging or Performing).

Then again...given that one of the composite things Raven listed in the 139 changes thread was Dispel being moved to AoE 1 and that cancels Innocent....Still, that's based on Faith, so...yeah.

The Faith status's CT getting lessened is less because it's a problem at 64 CT, though Faith-Lore for that long is rather obnoxious, and more of Innocent and Faith status having obvious parity (and thus only two things blocking either). Faith-units tend to die before Faith expires anyway, unlike Innocent units, so....

In the interest of making "Innocent" strategies effective, it is also worthwhile to go ahead with The Damned's proposal of splitting Refute into two abilities.  A Mediator with Refute attempts to remove the Innocent status on friendly Flash Hat wearers.  This is problematic for teams that try to use a Mediator for Solution and an Innocent Ninja for -on skills.

Before I concur, I have to correct you and say this was actually Wiz's suggestion...that I was actually initially against as well. But, yeah, I've come to agree with the idea myself.

Anyway, if we're splitting up Refute into two abilities that cost 150 JP, then there are at least three things that "should" be done:


1. Neither ability continues to cancel Innocent, Faith, Charging or Performing.

2. The positive-canceling ability cancels Haste, Protect, Shell, Regen, Reraise, Reflect, Float, Defending & maybe Transparent and has a higher chance of hitting.

3. The negative-canceling ability cancels Blind/Darkness, Poison, Berserk, Death Sentence, Frog, Oil, Undead, Slow, Don't Move, Don't Act, Silence & maybe Sleep, Charm, Petrify and/or Stop and has a lower chance of hitting.


When it comes to naming them, I'd actually suggest switching the "Refute" (or "Refutation") name to "positive-canceling" ability. When it comes to the "negative-canceling", I'd actually like for it to be named "Solution" (or "Solve") and for Solution, even if it's staying as "Add Innocent" for now, to be renamed "Reject".

When I say "maybe" to canceling Transparent for the new Refute, I say that because the only thing that even still adds Transparent is the (accursed) Hidden Knife, and that's Always: Transparent. I'm not sure if the AI would waste turns trying to Refute it away despite that. Besides, it can be dispelled on hit if Hidden Knife gets broken (which has yet to happen anyway), so....

(To be truthful, the same thing might happen with Float and Defending, but those at least have more sources and I almost forgot about them anyway, so.... Besides, if Defending is going to stay as it is with doubling Evasion and a strong Blind-adding Ninjato in addition to Kagesougi & Grand Cross's strength, then Defending could actually use something to cancel it.)

As for saying "maybe" to Sleep, Charm, Stop and/or Petrify on, well, obviously the negative-canceling version cancels a lot more than the positive-canceling version by default. I'm a bit tired of Charm getting canceled by pretty much every non-Item negative status under the sun even with Charm's potential turn-around. As for Sleep, well, I'm just trying to be consistent with regards to vanilla Talk Skill not affecting Sleeping units; I'd rather the new Refute not be able to affect Sleeping units either really. As for Stop & Petrify, I'm less insistent on those being additional exemptions. I'd rather just that Heal be allowed to have more use in the former sense and in the latter sense, enough things already cancel and block Petrify, even if it is another form of death; both being exempted would logically consistent with the sleep exemption, but meh.

That still doesn't solve the problem of Persuade, but I suppose it's a start.

I was testing out the Air Knife today and, yes, it does proc alright...Darkness.

Told you so. [/sing-song]

I don't know if anyone said this already but the other night me and FFMaster were talking the other night about changing the magic guns to nether guns where they shoot nether fire/bolt/ice. Formula can be same as the nether spells for wizards, less brave = more damage

Yeah, I brought that idea up about two weeks ago and a couple of people, like Gaignun, at least agreed about possibly entertaining the idea, if only because it wasn't powered up by Pilgrimage (or Faith Up). Well, that and it would no longer almost single-handedly obviate attack mages.

It would also make for a good "counter" if Innocent strategies become more viable.

[Gaignun]

No, the only things that apply are faith(caster & target), innocent, faith(status), zodiac compatibility and MA to an extent.

I support making Raise 2 take M-EV, then.  People won't have to swear by Flash Hats when playing with Cursed Rings.

Also, can we change Defense Armlet to Oven Mitt and give it an appropriate sprite?  There aren't enough cooking references in Kitchen Stadium Arena.

[The Damned]

(Speaking of Defense Armlet/Oven Mitt, can we talk about making it actually worth using? Because, at present, it's pretty the only accessory that we haven't talked about improving even though it's still not seeing use and never really has.)

I'm actually somewhat...against Raise 2 taking M-EV, since Cursed Ring actually already seems more than usable enough at present, especially since, for some reason, it seems like Cursed Ring causes the dead unit to come back on the fourth turn 100% of the time. I wonder if it's because it's an artificial Always: status caused by an Item rather than a "natural" one since it doesn't seem like FFMaster has changed in any coding with regards to Undead (yet). Hmmmm....

That said, I suppose that I could maybe get behind it if we get an assurance that Seal Evil & Consecration are among the abilities that are getting their JP reduced alongside things like the change to the Cures. Otherwise, two Cursed Rings seems like they could get as obnoxious as two Phoenix Blades currently are, especially since Cursed Ring increases Speed and the AI is blind to uncertain Undead resurrection unlike assured Reraise resurrection.

[reinoe]

I wasn't quite sure where else to put this question but...

How does one calculate the CT of Jump skills?  It's something I couldn't figure out when the original came out.

[Malroth]

INT( 100/2xspeed)

so CT 6 for a 8 speed unit
CT 5 for 9 or 10 speed
CT 4 for speeds 11 to 13
CT 3 for speeds 14 to 17

[CT5Holy]

Round up the number you get for (50/Speed).

8 Speed -> 7 CT Jump
9 Speed -> 6 CT Jump
10-12 Speed -> 5 CT
13-16 Speed -> 4 CT
17-24 Speed -> 3 CT

And I believe Haste does not factor into the equation.

[The Damned]

(Haste indeed does not factor into Jump or else it would have been even more obnoxiously overpowered in vanilla where it sped up Speed by 50% instead of the current 25%.)

For everything you want to know about Jump, just look at the section 2.3 of the Battle Mechanics Guide (or BMG) by Aerostar. That guide is actually pretty much still accurate for most of what's underlying ARENA still and it has very few errors, most of the ones I remember being mere typological ones.

Since we're speaking of Jump and I mentioned earlier today because of the video I put up, I'm beginning to wonder if it needs to lose its 100% accuracy or at least have its Spear multiplier decreased from 1.5 to 1.3 or something. It's one of the few techniques that AI uses perfectly, which would reason not to touch it...if it weren't so damn damaging at 100% accuracy and with periods of complete invulnerability that the enemy can't see until it's off the ground. When combined with it having range 6 (by necessity), most Spears auto-increasing speed, being the only skill that has a loophole that allows all four units on a team to use it and, of course, Quickening still being a round for some reason, yeah....

I've been thinking it's kind of a problem for a while, but I couldn't really decide on a way to "fix" it that's actually meaningful.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

>AI uses Jump perfectly.



Go home Damned, you're drunk.

[Dokurider]

"Oh look, my 221 HP mage fell asleep! I better wake him up with a 600+ damage Jump!"

[FFMaster]

Meanwhile, another unit decides to kill the sleeping and about to be Jumped on person anyway, making the Jump a turn waste.

[The Damned]

(Heh, forgot about that "minor" imperfection, partly because I hardly ever use Jump myself.)

Aside from that, the AI pretty much uses Jump perfectly. We should totally look into that and everything, but it's pretty bottom of the pile in terms of priority, especially with everything else we are asking FFMaster to do. Well that and, like Mime, no one has looked into it despite it going on since Vanilla.

Regardless, it remains that Jump might be a "bit" of a problem, but it's one that I'm fine leaving until 140. I was just reminded of it while recording Reks's team.