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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

The Damned

July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm #1340 Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 06:58:39 pm by The Damned
(Ugh. Why am I so eternally behind in everything?)

Anyway, since we're not here to answer questions that will take millennia, I figure that I will instead (vainly) try to continue to talk about the current weapon discussion so that we're doing something more or less every day. I'm both behind on this--since I meant to post it at least last night, if not Tuesday--and cutting in it half because I've already made myself late for other important things. Hurray for my usual indolence and idiocy.

As it stands now, being behind actually helped me get my katana ideas in order since I didn't think up those until last night if not right while I was typing this. So my katana-based autocracy might be doubly rough, especially since I don't have time to even pretend to proofread this--not like I proofread most things even though I should before I post. As such, I'll fix any (particularly egregious) typos when I return.

For the record, the Swords bit is mostly a recap just to show that we've mostly figured them out completely (for now) going into 1.39. I used Gaignun's coloration for things as shall soon be apparent:


SWORDS
NOT CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Tactician's Blade


2. Moonlight


3. Blood Sword


4. Ancient Sword


5. Sleep Sword


6. Platinum Sword


7. Ice Brand: This is not changing, at least not yet.


8. Rune Blade


9. Ultima Weapon


CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Phoenix Blade: This is dying due to its utter stupidity. Good riddance. Its place will either be given to Kazekiri/Airrender or Balmung, which is still being decided. This dying implicitly buffs every other sword and, arguably, every other weapon in ARENA.


2. Parry Edge: Its W-EV is increasing from 20% to 25%.


3. Coral Sword: This is getting an overall buff despite taking a 2-point drop in WP from 9 to 7 by getting a much better proc in the form of Suiton. This will still get to Strengthen: Water.


4. Lionheart This is getting (back) its original 10% W-EV, even though that may end up being a bad (or unnecessary) thing.


So, of swords, we've basically agreed on everything except whether Kazekiri/Airrender or Balmung should replace Phoenix Blade and, I guess, if Shieldrender should get to stick around for at least a bit. The latter has been implicitly agreed upon, but it would nice to, you know, actually affirm that definitively.

As for the former, let's compare the two current designs for them or, rather, I should say "design" since I don't recall anyone actually giving "Kazekiri" actual stats beyond it being Range 2, Wind element and probably Two Sword-able. The only other thing that was maybe agreed upon by it was that it maybe should be equal to Air Knife in WP even if it wasn't Two Hand-able (I think). So the "Kazekiri" that appears here is at best an approximation of sorts:


"Kazekiri": 11 WP, 5%: W-EV; Range: 2; Element: Wind; Two Hands: Probably Not; Two Swords: Yes. (This is no longer viable provided we go with my version of Masamune below that has Range: 2.)


Balmung: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Cast: Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably not.


I already gave my reasons for wanting the latter, Balmung, now.


Rending EDIT: With the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit, it probably needs change sooner rather than latter.

DO WE REPLACE THIS? AND IF SO, WITH WHAT?
Shieldrender: Probably staying as it is for now, now that we know it works and yet doesn't function in a way as broken as expected. It may yet change in though depending on how it performs, at least going into 1.40....)

While still possibly staying as it is for now even though it does double hit, it has done what we "feared" and revealed itself to indeed be double-hit capable, which could easily be a problem. A rather large problem.

In addition to that, what with my "sabotage" of Kazekiri, we now have nothing else to replace Shieldrender with if we do get rid of it--provided, you know, we agree on the new changes to Masamune that obviate Kazekiri. At present, all I can think of is an Electric type sword, but I need more time here.

Katana-Rama EDIT: With "Storm Sword" being the Zoidberg of this group changes, it's not evident that I edited it in at this time without nothing, so...

Regardless, if we get rid of Shieldrender, than perhaps we could sub-it out for this:

Storm Sword/Storm Blade/Atoms Blade/Vajra: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably.



KATANA
NOT CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Murasame: This is probably fine without any additional buffs. Unlike Healing Staff, it's seen more than a token amount of use--it's actually seen a fair bit of use. It is arguably getting a bit of an implicit nerf with Berserk status becoming finite due to necessity, but Murasame the katana should still be fine.


2. Heaven's Cloud: This is not changing despite basically seeing no use. That may not be a problem, however, depending how much Genji Helm might actually help it. Due to Genji Helm, it is technically getting an implicit buff.


3. Muramasa: This is fine as it is, even if classes other than Samurai currently get the best use out of it. Perhaps especially because of that.


4. Kikuichimonji: This is also fine as it is, especially since the new Genji Helm will boost what's already technically the strongest possible Katana. So this is technically also getting an implicit buff. It saw use before Celdia left after the only other user "vanished" from the forums.

(Katana-Rama EDIT: Actually, do the Genji Helm, I agree with Gaignun that Kikuichimo(n)ji's Quake proc should decrease from 33% from 25%.)


CURRENTLY DECIDED ON CHANGES
1. Masamune: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; Special: 50% Cast: Dispel; Initial: Haste & Regen; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


2. Chirijiraden: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 PA, Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


(Masamune the katana will show up again below; it only shows up above because I wanted to note the Initial: Regen aspect was universally agreed upon.)


PERSONALLY PROPOSED CHANGES
1. Asura Knife: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; +1 MA, Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark & Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


3. Bizen Boat: 11 WP 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; +1 MA; Special: 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


4. Kiyomori: 8 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 25% 50% Cast: Bio; Immune: Blind/Darkness & Poison; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes. (This loses the +2 MA it was giving.)


5. Masamune: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 2; Special: 33% Cast: Dispel (Magic); Initial: Haste & Regen; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.



I'll put the reasons for the above authoritarian decisions in spoilers since they got a bit lengthy, though not terribly so for my posts (maybe):


(THESE ARE SEMI-OBSOLETE AFTER DISCUSSING WITH GAIGNUN BELOW)
1. Asura Knife: At first glance, this seems really overpowered perhaps, even with the WP drop. In actuality (or, at least, in several thought exercises), it's really not, if only because we've recently agreed that Asura is probably becoming PA*Y instead of staying MA*Y; if Asura wasn't changing, then it might be overpowered. As it is now, the current changes are meant to give a) Asura Knife a way to "get around" Fire absorb units, b) Samurai more reasons to use elemental Black Magic that isn't Water and c) people more reason to use Asura Knife in general.

When it comes to the perhaps seemingly overpowered aspect (Faith-based) magic-wise, one has to realize that even with female Samurai's relative high MA, even with the best of MA set-ups, they're still inferior to female Wizards and Summoners on this front aside from having more HP and PA. (Also, P-EV%, I guess--not like that matters if you get mid-charged.) The other classes have way more MP even without robes, more MA options with Holy Miter access and Asura Knife doesn't obviate Black Robe since that actually gives both more MP than Wizard Robe does, which is what female Samurai would have to use to achieve "max power" in Black Magic with Asura Knife. As it is now, with Circlet & Wizard Robe, female Samurai can only achieve "infinite Ice" spells with Move-MP Up. Max power Asura Knife set-ups are actually less powerful than similar, current max power set-ups with the current "Rune Blade in lazy disguise" that is Kiyomori the katana and Wizard Robe...that no one has ever really used.

I'm not going to deny that the spells from Black Magic Samurai with this set up won't hurt like hell, but that +1 MA is there both because I figure at least one Katana should still boost MA a bit and because the Tier 1 Black Magic spells are probably getting slightly nerfed anyway. Regardless, the only magic that (female) Samurai using this Asura Knife should maybe outclass other spellcasters in are the Nether spells given Draw Out Primary doesn't care about Brave or Faith at all. Even there, it's not like female Wizards can't use Draw Out Secondary--they'll just have less (a lot) HP.

Additionally, despite strengthening three elements and being usable with Two Swords, there isn't actually another Two Sword-able weapon for Asura Knife to strengthen aside from the new Fire-element Iga Knife. The elemental Rods & Mace of Zeus already self-strengthen and Ice Brand, the spellguns, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow & the new elemental spears are all not usable with Two Swords. So...yeah. It's not exactly physically overpowered either, especially with that (still probably necessary) slight WP drop and especially with Two Swords. This while also not being completely vestigial with Two Swords.


2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: Admittedly, this design is a bit...lazy, but I couldn't think of anything else ultimately that worked. This katana, unlike the other, sure as hell wasn't getting +1 MA, especially since Koutesu will remain MA-based and AoE 2. The only other thing I could think of was giving it 100% Seal Evil...when I'm still not entirely sure if the A.I. can even "see" what weapons "proc", even if they happen at 100%. As it is now, this is the best and probably only thing that would really help while also allowing Ko(u)tetsu Knife to keep its Dark element typing (which is oh so very "needed"). [/not meant to be prideful]

It got a, as far as I'm concerned, necessary bit of a WP buff given the utter lack of Dark type weapons at present and to help it better compete with Sadist's Whip. The ability to strengthen Holy also helps in two ways beyond just allowing its user to get around units that absorb Dark, especially with Cursed Ring losing Null: Holy. It helps give armored units--well, not Lancer--access to Strengthen: Holy & Dark that they previously didn't have outside of Equip Clothing (which no one is using), which helps with (offensively) using White Magic, Summon Magic and Time Magic; also, technically Black Magic what with Death being Dark element. Arguably more important than that is fact that it rounds out the Katana category and makes them the second of only two equipment categories--the other being Rods--in all of ARENA to strengthen every element; I'm not counting accessories as a third just because of 108 Gems. That alone should help make present katana more desirable than they currently are, even with the "necessity" of losing +2 MA with the present Kiyomori "needing" to die since it's just a redundant Rune Blade.


3. Bizen Boat: This frankly has needed a WP boost for a while given how...underwhelming adding Silence is, even at 100%, with how it only (definitively) affects seven classes--most people forget Mediator/Talk Skill--and how most of those classes usually block it. Giving it so much power is perhaps a bit contrary between Two Hands, squishy mages and Silence not lasting past death, but meh. Even with the 11 WP, it's not exactly the strongest Katana even with Chirijiraden's slight, technical power drop, if only due to Murasame the katana.

It can perhaps drop to 10 WP, but it definitely needs a (WP) boost of some kind, especially if we're giving Silencer one and especially if it will now also have to compete with the new Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes/Girafarig too.


4. Kiyomori: Given people being so luke-warm to changing this for some reason, I tried to make it over in a way that proves I'm not (just) being spiteful towards it. I just think its space could be much better used than it currently is since it's a barely more evasive, ultimately redundant Rune Blade.

And so we get this admittedly possibly bloated thing that I think is still fair. Blocking both Blind & Poison isn't exactly overpowering given how much cures them--literally every status curing ability and then the Antidote item. In addition to that, one must consider that the most commonly used (heavy) Armor, Diamond Armor, blocks both of them as well. Finally both are also blocked by Ribbon/Chakra Band a.k.a. the only "Ribbon/Headband People Actually Use". So one more thing might be not exactly help, but at least it's on a low-access weapon rather than another piece of armor (or an accessory).

So, between the intentional drop in WP and those possibly lackluster immunities, I felt that it needed some power, so I gave it more W-EV and allowed it to proc Bio. The latter was chosen for quite a few reasons, though mainly because the Bio spells will no longer be otherwise existent in 1.39 and because I think there should be another katana besides Kikuichimoji that rewards Faith (status, due to Muramasa the katana).

It could probably use more refinement though, like all of these ideas, considering I just came up with it off the top of my head while typing this.


5. Masamune: So...yeah. Now you see why I made sure to make it clear that Initial: Regen was a universally agreed upon thing. This also got a bit "bloated", but only because people said they didn't want it to lose Dispel Magic. This also because, as I said earlier, I wasn't being entirely sarcastic about the Range: 2, even as much as I dislike/am apathetic towards Sephiroth and FFVII.

Admittedly, it's a bit "underhanded" to undercut the chance of "Kazekiri" being chosen over Balmung by essentially obviating "Kazekiri" with this. I was also sincere, however, when I said that I think the "stylish" sword should be non-elemental. Such a sword being non-elemental maximizes it being able to work with Two Swords.

As it is now, Dispel Magic's percentage was brought down because of the increase of Range and the buffs to initial statuses might make it 50% Dispel (Magic) obnoxious, even if it's dependent on face; the same applies for was its W-EV, which I was briefly tempted to drop all the way to 5%. It's not like every team is going to be packing debuffs, really, even with the buff to (non-proc) Dispel and the addition of Kibaku Fuda. The latter changed especially due to the fact that I figure that some of the katana should vary at least slightly in W-EV instead of all being uniform 15%.

For the record, I'm most undecided on its WP at present. People wanted it increased, but I really don't think it should be, especially if we're letting it keep Dispel Magic, giving it Initial: Regen and (I'm) giving it Range: 2. That on top of pushing it to be used with Two Swords. As such, I wouldn't mind pushing this back down to 8 WP and pushing the new Kiyomori's WP up to 9--Bio's proc for that might need to drop to 20% then though.

Shrug.



I'll talk about at least Flails & Crossbows next time, though the talk of the former is less about the Flails themselves--since those aren't changing at all now--and more who gets access to them in 1.39. I might also talk about Daggers & Knives next time too since Katar was brought up, though I still don't want that get distracted by discussions of what Knife is the "best" right now since that's  basically unimportant.


Autocratic EDIT: Hmm...it figures. The one post I made a point of not proof-reading probably had the least errors of any of my posts in a while, including some of my (much) shorter ones. Most of the syntax I fixed was just clarifying things, really.

Rending EDIT: With the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit, it probably needs change sooner rather than latter. (Just noting this outside of spoilers given the change to the Swords section isn't readily visible.)

Katana-Rama EDIT: Just noting that I've edited in the changes I replied to Gaignun with as well as noted his suggestion about Kikuichimoji. I also spaced out the weapon entries and added the Lightning-element Sword under the sword section.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Gaignun

July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm #1341 Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:18:01 pm by Gaignun
Thanks for the list.  No need to post when you have other things to do.  Life first, man.

My comments are as follows:

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
1. Asura Knife: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; +1 MA, Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


This does too much in spite of your reasons to the contrary.  This will make 16 MA female Samurai with elemental strengthening and Magic Attack UP possible (using a +1 MA accessory).  No class other than Wizards should have that kind of destructive power.

This also walks all over Black Robe, which is similarly seldom used.  Asura Knife + Wizard Robe will be leagues better than C Bag + Black Robe (assuming we're changing Kiyomori).  Compare:

Asura Knife + Wizard Robe: +3 MA, 65 HP, 40 MP, 15 W-EV
C Bag + Black Robe: +2 MA, 65 HP, 60 MP, 0 W-EV

+20 MP isn't worth the hit to MA and W-EV, so Black Robe will almost never see use on a Samurai.

At the very least, the MA bonus should be dropped.

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark & Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


Adding Holy strengthening is not justified on grounds of helping Samurai get around dark resistance.  Units that have trouble getting around resistance to their weapon are, naturally, PA-based.  However, all Holy skills are MA-based, so Holy strengthening is ineffective.

The WP boost is enough in my opinion.  At 10 WP, this self-strengthened, two-handable weapon deals beastly damage.  Commitment to a single element is the price you pay for this damage.  Of course, the current Asura is exactly the same, but is seldom used.  The best way to get these weapons used is to nerf the alternatives that eclipse them, such as Katar (which I will get to).

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
3. Bizen Boat: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


Boosting WP on grounds that its proc is often protected against is not valid in my eyes.  Silence is protected against because it is difficult to cure.  By making Bizen Boat attractive to use in spite of this will make silence-resistant gear that much more indispensable.

In other words, there's nothing wrong with the current Bizen Boat.  It just doesn't fit into the current meta-game.  Once we give silence a finite duration, players might start easing up on silence protection.  This is when Bizen Boat will become effective.

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
4. Kiyomori: 8 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 25% Cast: Bio; Immune: Blind/Darkness & Poison; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.


Like Asura, this also does too much.  Before we let our creativity get the best of us, I'd like to advise against loading weapons with too many functions.  To start with, let's keep status protection to armor and accessories as much as possible.  (A weapon like Murasame, which protects against Berserk, is excused since it heals on hit.)  The Bio proc is a neat idea, though.  It fits right in with Kiyomori's Draw Out ability without being redundant.  We could bump the proc rate all the way up to 50%.  Even at this rate, it will still be outperformed by Chirijiraden in terms of DPS.

I think the Masamune change is fine.  I love me some Sephiroth.

Ninja edit Ninjedit: It seems that with the introduction of the new Genji Helmet, we should probably give Kikuichimoji a bit of a nerf:

Kikuichimoji: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth Element, 25% Cast: Quake

With a 25% proc rate, Kikuichomoji will deal the same average damage as a 10 WP Koutetsu on a male samurai.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 11:21:28 pm
Uh, yeah, Katar is definitely better than Air Knife because you don't have to worry about elemental resistances, and it does plenty of damage ("lol broke damage," as you would say) anyway. The +1 PA is nice, too.


Yeah, Katar is a little too good at the moment.  A weapon that grants +1 Move and can be used by slippery thieves shouldn't deal damage comparable to katana and knight swords.  Dialing back its WP by 1 (to 11) is in order.  To keep knives balanced, Orichalcum will need also need its WP lowered to 11, and Air Knife will need a further, minor nerf (such as a reduction of its W-EV).

The Damned

July 19, 2013, 05:44:40 pm #1342 Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:04:44 pm by The Damned
(I'm all for nerfing Katar & Air Knife a bit more. I'm not entirely sure that Orichalcum needs to be lowered to 11, though. 11 WP seems...I'm just not sure given it doesn't add +1 PA and people really aren't using it anyway and the classes most likely to use Knives have piss poor +1 MA.)

Okay, so let's talk about Flails & Crossbows even though I'm not pretending like Gaignun is the only one who might have anything to say about the above suggestions for Katana. This especially with the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit as we "feared"; I should probably go back and edit that into red in the last post....

I guess I'll also talk about Daggers/Knives next since we keep talking about Katar. I just need more time to think on at least Mage Masher and Orichalcum.


FLAILS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Sadist's Whip: No changes.


2. Spiked Futon: No changes.


3. Aspergillum: No changes; no longer becoming Desert Rose.


4. Scorpion Tail: No changes.


As I said above, with the decision to not change Aspergillum into Desert Rose, there's nothing to talk about when it comes to about the actual Flails themselves. Pretty much everyone agrees that they're fine and Scorpion Tail, at least, has seen rather constant use despite very few classes actually having Flail access and it not being on an Equip X currently.

Speaking of Equip Xs, that's the first thing to decide on or, at least, reaffirm. The only other things to decide on are if more classes should get access to Flails innately and, if so, which ones.

CURRENTLY CHANGING
Equip Light Blade: People seem to be fine with Flails being part of this now; so far no one has objected. Presumably, this is staying on Thief despite the change, even if Thieves perhaps don't get Flails. So I suppose it's more of a question as to whether to leave Equip Light Blade's JP alone or to increase it with this addition rather than if Equip Light Blade is actually granting Flail access at this point (which should be possible from my vague recollections of Razele's charts).


Flails on More Classes?: Initial suggested classes were Thief and Time Mage by way of Dokurider. I concur(red) with Time Mage, but have come to basically disagree about Thief, partly because even with Quickening dying and now Katar & Air Knife getting further weakened, they'll still have a bunch of good things. Additionally, as much Ninja also has a bunch of good things, the good things it has are currently actually few and just really overpowering: Kagesougi, Hidden Knife and Innate: Two Swords. Even with all the buffs they're getting going into 1.39 (so they won't be one-trick ponies), I'm still a bit...hesitant to give Thief the exact same weapon access as Ninja given they'll still have greater speed.

Still...I guess Thief also--in addition to Time Mage--getting Flails ultimately wouldn't break anything really, especially since they don't have Innate: Two Swords. It would also make "sense", at least in terms of Equip Light Blade.

I personally suggested perhaps Paladin and Geomancer as well, though the latter was mostly just due to the fact that Geomancer actually doesn't get access to very many weapons. Still, it's not like they actually really benefit from Flails, even Spiked Futon or Aspergillum, between Giant Axe and the actual paucity of Wind & Water element Elemental abilities. Paladin is much the same way, really. It's even worse for Paladin, actually, due to their lower MA (& barely higher PA) and having access to Koutetsu Knife, which really should stay Dark type even with its current issues. To be honest, I mostly suggested Flails for female Paladins, so they wouldn't have to worry about PA, rather than male Paladins. As such, both Paladin and Geomancer are probably poor choices for Flails ultimately.

Any other candidate suggestions? I know Malroth (?) mentioned Bards using Flails, but I'm not sure if he meant innately.



CROSSBOWS (or XBOWS)
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (MAYBE)
1. Night Killer: May or may not be getting a boost of 2 WP.


2. Poison Bow: May or may not be getting a reduction of 2 WP, though it really doesn't need to if Hawk's Eye isn't getting further nerfed like Hawk's Eye needs to given part of what makes that ability overpowered is it obviating Poison Bow.


3. Hunting Bow: May or may not be getting a boost of 2 WP. Unlike Night Killer, this likely doesn't need the boost though.


Bow Gun gets its own section just because it's that fucked up.

WHAT DO WE REPLACE THIS WITH?
Bow Gun: Pretty much everyone agrees that this probably needs to die, especially now that we know it actually does proc Armor Break. It's just a matter of, you know, thinking up something to actually replace it. Thus far, the only suggested one was by Dokurider in the form, as I understand it, of a Crossbow that had the same power as the current Bow Gun, but was special in that it could be Two Handed. While FFMaster agreed this might be interesting, I personally realized about a week after it came up that Dokurider had just inadvertently made a worse of the current Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes.

So...yeah. We need ideas here. At present, all I can personally think of is making another 50% Extra Attack Crossbow, which didn't exactly see use before, though Crossbows as a whole have always had problems for various reasons. (*cough*Guns*cough*)


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Silencer: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 4; Special: 50% Add: Silence; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (Because, really, Silence is a mostly underwhelming status, at least when you don't have to worry about gil costs.)


2. Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 4; Special: 100% Random Add: Nothing, Poison, Blind, Silence or Don't Move; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (The "Add Nothing" aspect is part of Kagesougi, which really should stay and be noted in the Master Guide even if it wasn't originally unintended because otherwise that damn thing would be even more broken.)

(Also, if we're changing Gastrafitis, then like "Ramia" Harp, I really wouldn't be against fixing its name too to be Gastraphetes.)



Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
Thanks for the list.  No need to post when you have other things to do.  Life first, man.


Well it's a good thing that I have no life and don't have to pretend that I do. Wheeee.

Regardless, thanks for the feedback given you (guys) actually do have lives (probably).

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
My comments are as follows:

*Asura Knife commentary*


Fair enough. The +1 MA can drop given it was tacked only because I figured people would kvetch if some katana didn't add +1 MA anymore. "Ironically", that's probably the reason that my Black Magic calculations were slightly screwed up.

Do you think the WP drop is justified still then? Or...?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Kotetsu Knife commentary*


True. I guess it not being able to get around Dark is fine if Cursed Ring is getting weakened, but now I sort of want a katana to strengthen Holy element....

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Bizen Boat the katana commentary*


Oh, so we are making Silence & Blind finite duration now? I was unsure about that and didn't want to skip ahead to talking about status considering I wanted to try to focus things as much as possible.

While what you say here is also true, I'm also not exactly...ready to believe that making the already somewhat weak (overall) Silence status weaker is going to do any favors for Bizen Boat ultimately despite making it less mandatory for mages (and Mediators) to block Silence.

For starters, it's still going to be pretty easy to block Silence. Additionally, depending on how long Silence lasts, we might either run into the problem where it's semi-pointless to add it if it's too short or that it's still long enough in totally obviating a unit to merit guarding against it. The latter would mean the decrease in units who don't block Silence won't be that significant.

Perhaps we can compromise on this? This especially since I said in my reasoning that I thought giving Bizen Boat that much WP was a bit contrary anyway. How about giving Bizen Boat +1 MA? Like I said, I still think a katana should boost MA a bit at least. I just don't think it should a) be by +2 MA and b) at the expense of wasting a space on a redundant weapon.

Even if we agree that the current Bizen Boat is more or less "fine", that's far different from being impressive or having incentive use it. Thus far, I think the only team that's ever made good use of it (or any use of it, really) is CT5Holy's team Ninja Muramasa & Bizen Boat team.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Kiyomori the katana commentary*


Understandable. I'd definitely be up for bumping the Bio proc rate to 50% and cutting the immunities out completely since I like I said, I felt they were bloated. (An unsurprising result what with having come up with that on the spot.)

I'm still not too sure about the WP power though, at least versus the buffs given to Masamune the katana. Is letting this new Kiyomori keep that 5% increase to its W-EV fine though?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
I think the Masamune change is fine.  I love me some Sephiroth.


Man, you guys are so easy. :p

I guess one of five is being fine off the bat is something.

In thinking about it more, I've come to realize that Masamune, in undercutting Kazekiri, perhaps doesn't still quite get at what Dokurider was getting at, at least in the sense of it having the mass distribution of a Sword. For the most part, I'm personally fine with that given the "stylishness" is still available to at least three classes: Paladin, Samurai and Ninja. Ironically, of the three, Ninja are already the ones most likely to use the Katana they're equipping to actually attack with.

As such, this gives Samurai incentive to actually use Two Swords at all given, right now, the only Two Swords katana combo they pull off better than Ninja currently are all Kikuichimoji-related. The combinations Muramasa & Kikuichimoji, Chirijiraden & Kikuichimoji and double Kikuichimoji are the only things Samurai do better than Ninja since even male Samurai have the MA to back up Quake procs. Giving Samurai extra range with Two Swords would help the disparity a bit even though Samurai and Ninja have the exact same PA, if only because the male Samurai have, again, better MA as well as the ability to potentially re-add Haste & Regen.

(Hmmm...maybe we should drop [male] Ninja PA's by one, especially if it's possible to leave Kunoichi's PA alone.... It would certainly help the Kagesougi situation more....)

Similarly, on top of Genji Helm, Knights get a buff in using Katana now that it will extend their Sword and Axe (read: Slasher) range potentially. Ninja can similarly extend the range of some Daggers/Knives and all of their Ninjato & Flails. So Masamune, even as a Katana, will still allow some good stylish diversity with everything that can be Two Sworded anyway (on the physical side). That's pretty good for only being available on three classes instead of seven--well, six given Druids won't have Swords anymore anyway...maybe.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
Ninj, Na edit Ninjedit: It seems that with the introduction of the new Genji Helmet, we should probably give Kikuichimoji a bit of a nerf:

Kikuichimoji: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth Element, 25% Cast: Quake

With a 25% proc rate, Kikuichomoji will deal the same average damage as a 10 WP Koutetsu on a male samurai.


Yeah, I agree, especially since we're not nerfing Quake's power (or even its CT) currently from what I understand and procs don't care about MP (increases), so....


Cross EDIT: Omitted the minor comment in the beginning parenthetical about Orichalcum going down to "12 WP, yes"...since it's already at that. Otherwise, I just added space between things and added some minor commentary next to Silencer and Gastraphetes.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

CT5Holy

For the record, other people have definitely used Bizen Boat in the past, though it did have higher WP at the time (still had 100% silence on hit). And just because most people block Silence doesn't mean everyone does. Bizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Malroth

Coral sword is loosing 2WP???  Awww there goes the idea for a Twohanded Dancer spamming 380 damage Grand crosses every round

The Damned

July 19, 2013, 09:36:03 pm #1345 Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:45:59 pm by The Damned
(I think I should do some research tonight....)

That's part of why it's losing some WP, Malroth.

Now that you mention it though, that's something I've always been kind of unclear about: Does Two Hands actually count for double PA/MA within weapon based formulas like Grand Cross or Kagesougi?

I was always under the impression that it didn't, but it's not like I haven't been (horribly) wrong before (read: constantly).


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 06:58:19 pm
For the record, other people have definitely used Bizen Boat in the past, though it did have higher WP at the time (still had 100% silence on hit). And just because most people block Silence doesn't mean everyone does.


Well, yeah. It's not like I was trying to give the impression that Bizen Boat the katana was never used or that it's outright horrible (like, say, Iron Fan) or anything. I was just stating the fact that it has been used very little rather recently (read: the past year) and that I'm just skeptical that making Silence finite will have that much of effect on its current disuse if it stays exactly as is. Especially since, again, we're strengthening three other methods of adding Silence between buffing Silencer, Gastraphetes and probably Nameless Dance; we're arguably buffing four given the changes to Yin-Yang Magic's skill set, so....

(Speaking of Nameless Dance, that is basically the only thing that has been catching people not using Silence protection on mages [and Mediators] despite the fact that lack of said protection has already been happening more and more. So already Bizen Boat use should be increasing...and yet it's not even though Samurai and Paladin use is still quite high.)

Additionally, one also has to keep in mind two very important facts about 1.38 with regards to Bizen Boat as well:


1. 1.38 has already been out for longer than several past versions combined.

2. ARENA now has twice as many people as it usually had and more than twice as many teams as it usually has ever had at any one time previously.


...And yet Bizen Boat has only been used like...four times in the past year...and I'm counting your aforementioned (kinda old) team as at least one instance, if not two instances. 

Granted, a lot of this has to do with other weapons, like current Battle Axe, and Katana only being available innately to two classes--unlike Flails, I'm fine with Katana staying that way. It also doesn't help that current Kiyomori the katana is both redundant and rather braindead, basically monopolizing Katana use on Samurai. Even getting rid of Kiyomori's +2 MA as I think we should, improving the other "troubled" katana just makes an unimproved Bizen Boat even less appealing though.

So...yeah. I'll remain extremely skeptical about Bizen Boat the katana seeing any significant jump in use even after we actually decide on how long Silence "should" last as a newly finite status if Bizen Boat doesn't at least see a bit of a buff. While the WP boost admittedly might have been too much, I don't think giving it +1 MA is asking that much, especially since that's not contrary to trying to add Silence in the first place.

Speaking of which....

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 06:58:19 pmBizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.


Aren't those rather contrary things to say? I mean, I guess I get what you're saying: that of the katana, Bizen Boat has the most reward for the least risk upon attacking (unlike, say, Muramasa, which is high risk, high reward).

That's not exactly the same thing as most "useful" though, especially when only seven skill sets are affected by Silence at present and killing a mage is effective as silencing them (given Silence doesn't last past death), which is even easier to do with Innate: Two Hands.

Again, the current Bizen Boat katana isn't horrible. It's just not...impressive and even if something has to be at the bottom of use inevitably, that something seems like it could still use a bit of a buff in this case without transforming into some game-breaking piece of equipment.

...Bizen Boat the ability, on the other hand, probably still needs to be further nerfed; I figure it would probably be best to talk about Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb, Bizen Boat and Witch Hunt all at once though.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

CT5Holy

July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm #1346 Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 11:38:12 pm by CT5Holy
QuoteBizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.


Ah, to clarify my point, compare a samurai using AUP Bizen Boat vs 2H Katar Thieves. The Katar Thieves do comparable damage (probably less, but the damage output of both builds is "realllllllly high"), but they're naturally 2 SP faster than Samurai, and can more easily boost their Speed with equipment, which doesn't actually hurt damage potential since knives use both PA and SP in their damage formula.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Two Hands will not affect skills like Grand Cross, Southern Cross, Kagesougi, etc.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Malroth

July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm #1347 Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 11:44:44 pm by Malroth
Magic ruin is fine how it is, its single target, takes off half their max MP instantly but has a chance to miss. It doesn't see any use because Bizen bolt, JP concerns, and the fact that Quickening/Steal Heart/Bad Luck are so much better options

Spell Absorb is Pretty Weak vs most targets but can restore the users MP in addition to Draining it from the target. It sees little use because most view it as a MP healing move inferior to chakara (even on an oracle)  or Ether because of needing a high MP high faith enemy and it having its own MP cost so its unusable as a Bizen bolt counter.   I think this spell shoud cost 0 making it a viable method of giving the caster additional MP even in the most dire of situations

Bizen Bolt is VASTLY overpowered compared to other MP depleting strategies 10xMA stacking magic attack up is almost concidered too overpowered for HP damage moves and since MP totals are lower almost nothing will have MP after even a Mediocre Draw out user uses it.  5 or 6xMA  is a much better starting point letting an average draw out user deplete the reserves of Support melee but take work to drain a dedicated caster dry.

Dokurider

I will comment more on the current dialogue at a later time, but let me say this for now:

Bizen Boat (MA * 9) is the way it is because of the way the AI uses it. They primarily use it as a mid charge tactic. If the AI can't stop the spell (because MP is too high), then they simply will not use it. As the AI uses it, nerfing it's damage output altogether might just brick it entirely, because the AI has a history of not using such skills proactively. Anyways, I'm pretty sure your collective next step is to demand this poor technique be dragged out of the streets and shot for exploiting and oppressing the Mage Class. You guys however have to put this in perspective.

Yes Bizen Boat can wipe out a MP pool in one blow, but given the bevy of MP restoration techniques everywhere, your average mage isn't going to be down for very long, two turns at the most, and perhaps at reduced capacity if you're using high MP spells. Is Bizen Boat's interception ability really that big of a deal when it basically does what Sinkhole, Silence Song, and other status intercept abilities that do that already, but have much more persistent and more complete effects? I'll follow this up with a suggestion or two sometime this weekend so try to resist the urge to have Bizen Boat's entrails smeared all over the streets for being somewhat, if at all, unbalanced.

Otabo

July 20, 2013, 09:23:26 pm #1349 Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:31:18 pm by Otabo
Quote from: Dokurider on July 20, 2013, 01:41:24 am
Is Bizen Boat's interception ability really that big of a deal when it basically does what Sinkhole, Silence Song, and other status intercept abilities that do that already, but have much more persistent and more complete effects?


Yeah it is, actually. Sure, the AI typically uses it as a disrupt ability, but it also does use it even when the enemy mage isn't casting anything at the time. I see what you're saying, but the problem with BB is not only that it's AoE, but the thing is both instant AND unevadable. That alone makes it way too good. Not to mention it also doesn't give a care about fury or faith, has no cost whatsoever, and can potentially hit an entire team, unlike most interception abilities which either require charging, are subject to evasion, are subject to faith, is single target, isn't 100% guaranteed to hit anyway (i.e. Insult, Mimic Daravon), can be resisted/avoided/protected against by various equipment in some way or another, or any combination of the above. Add to the fact that the skill is present on a class that has naturally good MA values and can potentially be MA stacked (not that people MA stack just to get more MP damage from BB mind you, I mainly say that for those untis that have stuff like Chiri, Koutetsu and what not, and just happen to have Bizen Boat in their arsenal), and it get quite stupid to deal with. And what's worse is that Bizen Boat can screw over, not just mages, but any unit that has to rely on MP to use their skills to be worth anything. Sometimes, this can be an entire team.

I agree with Malroth & Damned. Mages already have enough crap they have going against them. Bizen Boat, as it is now, is too good and needs to be dealt with.

Avalanche

i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.

Dokurider

Yeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?

Otabo

Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action.


Doesn't matter how the AI uses it, the fact is Bizen Boat is simply not balanced for Arena the way it is currently. That's like saying how Vanilla Calcs can use CT5 Holy to one-shot entire maps in one action, but yet not acknowledge the fact that it's broken so there's no problem with it. Then again, this is Arena and not Vanilla, so...that might be a bad example. But you see where I'm going with that.

Quote from: DokuriderYeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?


Could be a possible solution, I think. Maybe not so much for MP Restore, but for Absorb MP? It could work I suppose. But I think it still needs to become evadable at the very least or have its numbers lowered a bit (or both).

Andante49

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 05:11:18 am
Also Gaignun, changing the trigger for a Reaction is a lot more skin-grafting agony than you'd be lead to believe.


Maybe making Bizen Boat have an MP cost like all the other MP damaging abilities? It would then trigger Absorb MP.

In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?

Dokurider

July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm #1354 Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:12:16 pm by Dokurider
QuoteBalmung


I don't agree that a close range, Faith Spell proc is truly necessary. No proc in the world, even 50% Flares, will ever convince your average fighter to take more Faith then he has to. Surviving long enough to get into range is key for a successful melee user and dying to spells on the way there just because you wanted to take advantage of a proc is counterproductive. It's one of the reasons why Silver Bow had laid unused for so long: nobody wants to trade magical weakness to take advantage of a proc.

Now I'm not saying that Cast: Stop is worthless or a bad idea, far from it. It would be very valuable to Yin-Yang Mongers and hybrid units. Or anyone will just take it and roll with the odds. It's just not as necessary as your saying. Increasing Stop's influence, however, isn't a bad idea.

QuoteSave the Sea Bags


I was actually more or less agreeing with you in a twisted way by demonstrating just how redundant C Bag has become. However, I can understand many people's (my own included) hesitance to remove some +2 MA weapons. "Why should my class lose damage output?" is the common question I asked myself, particularly around Kiyomori. There's also the issue that Samurai, a class that relies heavily on MA and uses a weapon class that's almost exclusive to them and mostly built to help them be more varied and flexible, loses it's +2 Weapon while the more common Sword class gets to keep it's +2 MA weapon and power up physical classes like Thieves and Paladins that'll almost never need it.

We don't have to remove the +2 MA completely. We can just knock it down to +1 MA or even +1 MA and something extra on some of the current MA weapons.

QuoteBizen Boat (katana)

Even in this Wall of Silence we currently have going on, Silence still has applications. In fact, Bizen Boat can get it on units that would otherwise not have to worry about Silence. First off, hybrid caster units like Yin Yang/Time Magic Paladins can be commonly found without Silence protection because they can't really afford the protection or don't care because they have other things they can be doing. But the most common spell units that don't use Silence protection would be Talk Skillers because the AI primarily uses Silence Song as an interception tactic and only casts it outside of that application if they don't have anything better to do. Otherwise they usually enjoy being exempt from being Silenced, unless Bizen Boat comes into the picture and shuts them up without the AI even connecting the dots.

Think of it more as Anti-Talk Skill, because I'll tell you now, it's a better way of countering Talk Skill then Finger Guard. I was going to use it on my Season 2 team, but I decided I needed a Item Nanny/Frog Proc was more useful then shutting down Talk Skillers. Either way, Silence's CT nerf should make Silence defense more lax.

QuoteIn a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?

I suppose it did. I think it's because no one's really sure if it's better to make MP more available to everyone. While I think it would be a powerful benefit to Fighter types with 24 MP, it could be a problem on Mages, because now they don't need to invest into MP gaining skills so strongly anymore, meaning stronger mages. If MP Regen was to be introduced, I would propose that it heals a flat 4 MP/turn so it helps Fighter types while not helping Mage types (that much). MP Poison, however, will still work on a %MP rate.

The Damned

(For the record, I meant talking about Bizen Boat and its out-classifed competitors together later. I guess "later" is, in this instance, now rather than something continually put off.

Oh well. I suppose it was foolish to think that I could get through all of weapons without any talk of abilities coming up.

OTHERWISE, WARNING: Walls of text and necessarily copious spoiler abuse incoming. You have been warned.)

That said, I'll still wait to address those things in replies to others.

For now, we'll talk about Knives, Longbows & Guns given I want to get the Gun ideas out of the way given I keep talking about another healing weapon (actually capable of decent healing unlike the new 1.39 P Bag).

First, though, let's talk about yet new another Sword idea:


Storm Sword/Storm Blade/Atoms Blade/Vajra: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably.


Please note: This sword would only be necessary to even consider if we are going back to getting rid of Shieldrender in addition to Phoenix Blade, as originally planned, but also accepting my proposed Masamune that obviates Kazekiri. As such, I'll keep my reasons for the creation of this relatively brief.


Much like Balmung and Dark-element weaponry, I think the creation of another Lightning-element close-range weapon is needed. Unlike Balmung and Dark-element weaponry, this is not because of paucity of Lightning-element weapons as there are four already with a guaranted fifth on the way. No, this is because the current Lightning close-range weapons blow, Lightning Bow has issues and Blast Gun is getting necessarily weakened.

Well, that's not entirely fair to Lightning Thunder Rod given it has to have the least WP of the elemental Rods between self-strengthen & the Bolt spells having the most power. The only thing is that elemental Rods being great for attacking is, thus far, largely confined to paper. Additionally, the self-strengthening issue plagues the only good (non-redudant) Staff in Mace of Zeus and Blast Gun has the lowest WP by neccessity (as it still will, going into 1.39).

Lightning Bow is actually pretty decent, it just  has major competition issues between Blast Gun, Mythril Bow and Ultimus Bow. Thankfully it lacks Ice Bow's additional issue of having incompatible absorption on accessories too given how Jade Armlet gives  Ice Bow the finger and yet is the only accessory to block Stop, which Ice Bow would otherwise cause on those who absorb it; Lightning Bow gets walled by Rubber Shoes, but you can at least block Don't Act in another way between the currently underpowered Defense Armlet and the comparatively great Wizard Mantle. Thankfully, all of those particular issues with regards to the Bows are getting "fixed".

(This is part of the reason I'm adding Longbows to the agenda since I was originally just going to talk about Knives & Guns.)

Regardless, Lightning is much like Dark in that I don't think it's ever really had a good team capable of using the physical side of its absorb. This makes sense when half of its weapons suck for the Crosses, Thunder Rod & Lightning Bow basically see no use, Blast Gun has the weakest WP of the Spellguns and, oh yeah, three of these weapons are based off MA. Even Lightning Bow isn't entirely based off PA, so...yeah. Although Partisan becoming Lightning element will somewhat fix that, I figure another new Lightning element PA weapon is warranted, especially since Spears are only innate to one class anyway. (Again, like Katana, Harps & Cloths, I think that's probably fine.)

Beyond that, I thought giving it Don't Move would be the fairest thing as a proc and would have nice synergy in pushing the to-be-improved Defense Armlet even more. I also figured that 33% wouldn't step on either Hunting Bow or the to-also-be-improved Ninja Edge, especially since this might be usable with Two Swords. (That if only for the sake of letting Thunder Rod and the possibly new Asura Knife see some use [with Two Swords].) In determining its WP, I figured that we could use a pseudo-Coral Sword replacement (that's better than the current Coral Sword) even though Coral Sword is changing for the better. The Two Swords and WP "issues" are mainly why, unlike Coral Sword, this has no self-Strengthen, though the power of the Bolt spells helped it not get that as well.


Damn. That was supposed to be "relatively brief".

Anyway, let's get into the actual "meat" of this, where apparently I'll be talking about four categories now, though the fourth will wait until replies:


KNIVES (OR DAGGERS, WHICHEVER; PICK ONE)
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Throwing Knife: There were a couple of brief debates earlier about whether or not to increase the WP on this. Apparently more people were fine with its current WP than not, so it's not changing (at present).


2. Repel Knife: This just hasn't been discussed because it hasn't seen much use yet, which is largely my fault for saying that I thought it was acting up (and then no one, myself included, indeed rigorously confirming that). It's debatable whether its proc might to drop eventually in percentage teams, but yeah, this has had no discussion and I'm not sure it *needs* the slight nerf per se, at least right now.


3. Platina Dagger: Apparently this is one of only two daggers that everyone is perfectly fine with right now. For good reason.


4. Main Gauche: The second of the "perfectly fine" daggers, though it may need its WP dropped if Katar, Air Knife, and Orichalcum lose WP.


CURRENTLY CHANGING (MOSTLY WITH NECESSARY NERFS):
1. Dual Cutters: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; Special: 50% Cast: Extra Attack; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: Yes. (This is literally the only definitely changing Knife that's not being nerfed out of necessity. Who would have thought that would have to happen back during 1.37?)

2. Orichalcum: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 MA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because, personally, I really don't think Orichalcum needs to drop down too Katar, yes. Orichalcum, possibly, but it seems unlikely given it doesn't boost itself like Katar does, especially when Two Handed. Shrug.)


3. Katar: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 PA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (This was only recently decided given it's abundantly clear that current Katar and Air Knife are both rather stupid, especially with them being on current Thief.)


4. Air Knife: 12 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; Element: Wind; Two Hands: Yes ; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because I still contend that it should drop in power more and now people seem to agree with that, with it recently being argued that it should drop to 11 WP. I'm just using the 12 WP drop because it's in Gaignun's thread though. Also, it's losing its Special: 25% Add: (?) Blind & Silence, which is fine since it was supposed to 25% Add: Sleep anyway...which would have been overkill anyway.)



AND THE KNIFE NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT EVEN THOUGH THEY PROBABLY SHOULD BE (LIKE HOW THEY ARE WITH KATAR NOW, ONLY THIS THING SUCKS):
Mage Masher: This knife is currently in a rather dubious place, if only because of its proc. Unlike what it says in the Master Guide, Mage Masher actually procs Bizen Boat at about at least 50%, not Silence. This would maybe be fine...if Bizen Boat, despite being currently overpowered, didn't actually suck on most of (actual) Knife users. The fact that this has seen very little use doesn't help.

So...should this go "back" to 50% Silence? Stay with 50% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Silence? Get other changes?

...Or should it just die?

Face it. Mages don't really need much extra "mashing", especially at present between spellguns & Bizen Boat the ability, them currently taking being Poisoned (forever) much worse than other classes, Quickening and them being easily OHKO'd by a lot of things; well, technically they're 2HKO'd by Kagesougi, but still. Of those, only spellguns & Quickening are getting huge nerfs at present and even then spellguns will still be doing the most damage to mages (since it's not like any physically-based class is likely to have 40 Brave that often). Similarly, the Poison thing and Kagesougi are being slightly addressed, more so the former even though not every mage is going to have White Magic (and shouldn't have to).

Additionally, Mage Masher is already a mediocre-at-best weapon that is only going to get worse between the aforementioned changes to the Silence-inducing weapons and the much needed buff Spell Edge is getting. Hell, even without buffing Bizen Boat the katana (even though I still think it deserves at least slight buff), Bizen Boat is outright a better weapon than Mage Masher between the katana doing more damage and having a 100% proc. The same goes for Monster Dict too I'd argue, especially since that's at least usable as a Southern Cross tool as well despite its proc arguably having...issues.

So...yeah. At present, the only "fix" that I can think of would be maybe to shift it from Two Swords-capable to Two Hands-capable so it doesn't have to compete with  the new Spell Edge and let it keep 50% Bizen Boat. Even that's kinda meh, though. Maybe. Not too sure....

I'm somewhat increasingly of the opinion that Mage Masher should maybe just die, but that's more because I can't think of anything to do with it, partly because it's not broken or even overpowered. The only other thing I could think of would be to switch its proc to Dark Sword perhaps. It seems likely to then become overpowering, however, or at least pretty annoying. Additionally, it would step on the new Spell Edge, though perhaps less so with the Two Hands thing.

...Similarly, with a bit more thought since I mentioned it above, I suppose one could give Mage Masher the ability to proc Magic Ruin and, instead, give the Dark Sword proc to Monster Dict. After all, it would make more sense for the Mage Masher to still destroy MP rather than drain it while the Book user would likely want to actually use their MP since it's backed up by MA.

Then again, given Dark Sword's formula, at least in vanilla, is just PA*WP and Monster Dict has 15 WP...yeah. That's a drain of at least 120 MP easy, which seems a tad much....

So maybe we ultimately want to change Mage Masher to a Dancing Dagger or Tonberrian or something...else.

Shrug.

All I know is that, at the very least, we need to decide if it should remain capable of using the 50% Bizen Boat that it's currently not supposed to be using (much like how we did with Spell Edge).



(LONG)BOWS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Silver Bow: Finally seeing some use in the past few months due to Dokurider's initial promotion of it. After seeing it do more damage on average than I expected, I'm rather glad we didn't go with my idiotic suggestion to give it +2 MA like Ice Bow & Lightning Bow. It's already getting an implicit buff with Cursed Ring losing Null: Holy.


2. Ice Bow: As aforementioned, this is implicitly getting a buff with the change to Jade Armlet meaning you can finally use this on Ice Absorb teams without having to use Equip Armor just for currently "meh" Mythril Helm (while also forced to use an Ice Shield and the also currently meh Defense Armlet); both Mythril Helmet and Defense Armlet getting buffed might in itself be a buff (though Mythril Helmet by itself may be a nerf). Of course, it's also arguably getting a bit of nerf in that Jade Armlet's Null: Ice is going to Defense Ring, which is still going to be rather common.

Alas, such is the fate of Ice.


3. Lightning Bow: As also aforementioned, implicitly getting a bit of a buff and a nerf with the buff to Defense Armlet. Otherwise, like Ice Bow, it's actually fine, it's just seeing no use due to having too many overpowered competitors.


4. Windslash Bow: Also currently fine. Technically getting a bit of a buff due to a lot of the armor getting something of a HP, so Hurricane procs will take off more damage; it will also heal more on Wind Absorb units on average and now benefit from Genji Helm. (Of course, by that same token, weapons that aren't increasing in WP are getting a very slight nerf, but I'm not counting that since Windslash Bow is literally the only weapon capable of taking advantage of the HP gains for offense and healing.)


In addition to all that, the reason all the not-changing bows are in Green is because most of their competitors are getting needed nerfs, including two of weapons in this very same category.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Long Bow: 14 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 6; +1 Move; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swwords: No. (The only Longbow getting a buff...that I'm still not entirely sure it actually needs, but I'm not against it getting a buff, so it should be interesting. It's probably more justified now that Cursed Ring is losing Null: Holy and given more than half of the other bows can be strengthened with the other two are still going to be outright stronger than Longbow. The interesting bit comes from the fact it would the only +1 Move where the A.I. will probably use that additional Move to move away from the opponent without needing Teleport to try to encourage the A.I. to not charge in for once.)


2. Mythril Bow: 14 WP; 0% W-EV;; Range: 5; +1 SP; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (Gets a much needed slight nerf in WP given how ridiculous it actually is, especially given how powerful +1 SP can be and when used in conjuction with things like Hawk's Eye.

The W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Not that I would mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)


3. Ultimus Bow: 15 WP; 0% W-EV;; Range: 5; +1 PA; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (Similarly gets a much needed slight nerf in WP given how absurd it actually is, especially in conjuction with Kagesougi's current stupidity.

As above, the W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Again, I wouldn't exactly mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)



GUNS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (THOUGH I WISH TO CHANGE THAT)
1. Romanda Gun: Of the two, this would be the one that's "dying".


2. Mythril Gun: Of the two, this would be the one that comes out of the merge "intact".


I'll list my ideas for changing those separate from the Guns we've actually agree upon changing presently, which come first:


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Blaze Gun: 14 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Fire; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (The only gun that's currently getting anything resembling a buff with a slight WP boost that I...guess is merited. Maybe. I don't feel like calculating anything right now and I vaguely trust Gaignun. [/indolence] [/faint praise]

It may go back to the Grand Cross shenanigans that I wasn't around for, but meh. As long it's no longer OHKO'ing mages effortlessly even if they have 40 Faith (or, in this case, 70 Brave) and largely obviating their attack power, I don't exactly give a damn about that.

We'll see if the Spellguns still should end up Forced Two Hands as well as I initially proposed. For now, allowing the new Nether Spellguns to still be able to be used with Shields might actually be fine.)


2. Glacier Gun: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Ice; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (A much needed nerf...that may ultimately leave Ice in the cold due to Defense Ring. [/gets shot])


3. Blast Gun: 11 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Bolt; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (A much needed nerf...that amusingly shouldn't much affect Rek's "Severe Weather Alert" team in actuality.)


4. Stone Gun: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Initial: Petrify; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This gets an implicit buff from the spellguns being nerfed, which once again makes it the strongest gun overall as it should given its literally initial drawback. Beyond that, the nerf is also needed given it will implicitly buff Longbows and especially Crossbows which were previously out-ranged, out-damaged and less accurate than this thing; they were literally outgunned. It no longer being able to be used with Shields also provides an interesting "test case" finally since I, personally, also found it ridiculous that all of the guns could be used with Shields [even in vanilla].)


With that out of the way, let me add yet more of my own machinations:

WE CAN REBUILD THEM; WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY

1. Mythril Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; +2 MA; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (This is the merger of Romanda Gun and Mythril Gun that essentially ends up as just a buff to Mythril Gun's damage. I guess one could also instead see this as a bit of a mixed nerf to Romanda Gun between the slight range drop and the fact that it got +2 MA.

Regardless, while both see some use and have been seeing slightly increasing use, if only to pick off anything the spellguns don't kill for the most part, they're really not different enough to merit taking up two spaces in my opinion. So they get merged into one still good gun that isn't entirely obviated by Stone Gun.

I guess we could increase the Range to 7 because of said Stone Gun, but given Stone Gun is getting slightly nerfed and people were apparently fine leaving Mythril Gun as it is, it probably doesn't need added Range.)


2. Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

...Done? Anyone not get the Star Ocean 2 one?

Anyway, despite the change to P Bag, I still say that we could use another healing weapon that's capable of, you know, actually healing for a significant if only moderate amount. The change to P Bag doesn't exactly do that unless, maybe, you give it to a (male) Samurai...which is kinda undermined in that they get access to Two-Handed Murasame, which is already the strongest healing weapon in ARENA, and Light Robe. Whatever buffs probably given to Healing Staff will also not help P Bag as a healing item comparatively; let's please leave talking about Staves for the end of weapons though given that's easily the most contentious weapon category. P Bag healing on hit just means the A.I. won't be stupid about attacking with a Bag for once in most instances.

Meanwhile, we had no additional healing weapons despite at least one much needed nerf to Auto Potion upcoming. We also still had no healing weapons that could be used from range. And while P Bag actually fulfills the bit about encouraging Mediators to use Praise and Solution instead of idiotically attacking with it, putting healing on a Gun would help Mediators (and Archers and even Chemists) actually be capable of, you know, healing people.

So I came up with this thing that doubles even Chemist healing range, makes it so that Chemists don't necessarily have to use Potions and can undo the damage of the oft-obnoxious Comet, which is only going to get more obnoxious with Auto Potion being weakened. It would also help against the horde of Cursed Ring users; the last part may be hampered by Projectile Guard--it all depends on if that will actually stop a healing weapon. [Did/does Blade Grasp block Healing Staff? If not, then this should get around Projectile Guard when not being used for Hawk's Eye or Breaks or whatever that's actually offensive to even non-Undead.]

All this while at the same time being unlikely to become obnoxious itself. I was originally going to make it only 9 WP to "replace" Auto Potion in a way without stepping on the new Mythril Gun's toes, but then I figured that would make Vector Gun too weak. As it is now, even with 10 WP, it won't really ever out-heal X-Potion, much less Hi-Potion on units with HP higher than 300 HP. At least, it won't do this unless you basically go out of your way to give the user max Fury and either Best compat. or, amusingly, Warpath, which is in itself rather encouraging. If anything, it might need a slight increase to 11 WP, but I'm unsure.

Presently, I'm way more unsure about its range than its WP as Range: 8 might be a tad obnoxious. If no one really complained about that for Romanda Gun, however, I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem for a healing weapon. This especially when every damage-oriented unit can rather easily outdo 100 damage on all but the most defensive of units. [And it's not like 40/40 units are going to be that appealing anymore between the Spellguns' changes and Death's buff.])


So...yeah. Yay? Nay? Maybay?



Oh, I guess I should point out that I went back and spaced the previous weapons lists as well as well as added the newer Katana changes I replied to Gaignun with and the Lightning-element Sword over Kazekiri.

Okay, so I'm going to now respond to things in quotes.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm
Ah, to clarify my point, compare a samurai using AUP Bizen Boat vs 2H Katar Thieves.


Oh. Will do, chief.


Let's assume that both a male Samurai and a male Thief have (near) max damage set-ups, have Move +1 Movement instead of Warpath, have 70 Fury/Brave and are attacking units with 40 Brave. So the Samurai has Bizen Boat the katana, Barbuta, Carabini Mail and Bracer. The Thief has Katar, Thief Hat, Black Costume and Cursed Ring.

Now, let's compare them on all fronts with the current versions of the weapons.


Samurai vs. Thief:

1. HP: 384 (154 + 110 + 120) vs. 304 (144 + 60 + 100 + Half: Earth, Wind & Water + Absorb: Fire & Dark + Null: Holy + Effective Immorality) [Winner: Thief.]

2. MP: 43 vs. 19 [not like this matters...for the Samurai, unless he's using Basic Skill for Accumulate; the Thief probably has Punch Art Secondary for Quickening stupidity and healing.] [Winner: Thief.]

3. Sp: 8 vs. 12 (10 + 1 + 1) [and the latter is before Quickening, in which case it's probably at least 13 before going on the Attack] [Winner: Thief.]

4. PA: 17 [13 (9 + 1 + 1 + 2) x 1.33] vs. 11 (9 + 1 + 1) [Winner: Samurai.]

5. MA: 9 vs. 3 [again, not terribly important here, though Draw Out and Steal Heart do go off MA.] [Winner: Samurai.]

6. Move: 4 (3 + 1) vs. 5 (4 + 1) [Winner: Thief]

7. Jump: 3 vs. 4 [Winner: Thief]

8. Evasion: 20% P-EV; 0% M-EV vs. 35% P-EV; 0% M-EV [Winner: Thief]

9. WP: 9/18 (with Two Hands) vs. 12/24 (with Two Hands) [Winner: Thief]

10. Damage to 40 Brave Units: 241 [(17 * 18) * ((105 * 75)/10000)] vs. 217 [(((11 + 12)/2) * 24) * [(105 * 75)/10000)] [Winner: Samurai.]


So, yeah. Given I actually did math correctly for once, Samurai with max damage set-ups beat a Thief that isn't quite as optimized but is basically what we're seeing and isn't really a slouch. If you maxed out Thief PA to 16 with Twist Headband, Power Sleeve and Bracer, you'd lose speed but then you'd to 312 (13 * 24), which actually does more than Bizen Boat which "only" has an effective 306 (17*18) power before Fury. (A PA stacked Thief would thus do 246, which isn't much more, but still more.)

Even without the max PA set-up, though, the Thief is obviously the (way) better build even before Cursed Ring shenanigans given that such a character is getting to attack literally as twice as much as the Samurai. That means Thief's effective damage is actually 434. [/Winner: Thief]



That said, given how much damage Katar would be doing even without the +1 PA (i.e. if it were Orichalcum), perhaps Orichalcum does need to a WP drop. This even though it would tend remain markedly inferior to Katar and Air Knife, which rather defeats the point of its existence.

...So, I find it more likely that, like (male) Ninja, (male) Thief probably just needs to drop in PA by one point, especially given their Speed and far increased damage options.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm
EDIT: I'm pretty sure Two Hands will not affect skills like Grand Cross, Southern Cross, Kagesougi, etc.


Well, yes. In double-checking one of the few bibles I actually believe in as something other than mythology, the BMG, I was reminded that Two Hands actually doubles WP despite what the Master Guide currently says; that should probably be fixed. The BMG also says straight out that it doesn't apply to Battle Skill even though those technically default to Attack.

Still, I wonder about Kagesougi at least some times and it seems better to be safe than sorry given how unclear some other things still are. (See: Bullrush not going off Fury, us realizing only recently that Shieldrender & Bow Gun work, etc.)



Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Magic ruin is fine how it is, its single target, takes off half their max MP instantly but has a chance to miss. It doesn't see any use because Bizen bolt, JP concerns, and the fact that Quickening/Steal Heart/Bad Luck are so much better options.


Indeed. Magic Ruin could probably stand to see its JP reduced to 150 JP though, even with Concentrate. I'm tempted to say it could see it reduced to 100, but that both steps on mages and Mind Ruin, so....

Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Spell Absorb is Pretty Weak vs most targets but can restore the users MP in addition to Draining it from the target. It sees little use because most view it as a MP healing move inferior to chakara (even on an oracle)  or Ether because of needing a high MP high faith enemy and it having its own MP cost so its unusable as a Bizen bolt counter.   I think this spell shoud cost 0 making it a viable method of giving the caster additional MP even in the most dire of situations.


Hmmm...making Spell Absorb use no MP would probably help it.

*might steal that for one of his own patches*

The thing is, though, that in addition to it actually costing MP, Spell Absorb has the problem of being on the one mage class that literally has no damage options. (Well, aside from Life Drain, which also saw very little use for some reason even before the Undead started running amok.) For some reason, the few times I've used Spell Absorb in ARENA myself, it seemed like the A.I. preferred it to actually using status on some units that it can status, even with serious things. I mean, it's not enough to dissuade the A.I. from using Petrify or anything, but it seemed like it was taking precedent over at least Beguile, if not Paralyze, and both of those statuses are usually pretty damn high up there.

Of course, my memory could be flawed.

Regardless, that would maybe make it see some use, especially with Oracle getting Balance. I'm just not sure if it's necessary...or even all that wise with Pilgrimage around now.

Shrug.

Still, it's something.

Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Bizen Bolt is VASTLY overpowered compared to other MP depleting strategies 10xMA stacking magic attack up is almost concidered too overpowered for HP damage moves and since MP totals are lower almost nothing will have MP after even a Mediocre Draw out user uses it.  5 or 6xMA  is a much better starting point letting an average draw out user deplete the reserves of Support melee but take work to drain a dedicated caster dry.


What Dokurider said is kinda why it "has" to be that way, though. The A.I. tends to be...capricious about MP damage. It seems like it will use if it can't do anything else in range, which means that it's not entirely like Dokurider says. Additionally, like Otabo pointed out, the A.I. will just sometime use MP damage even if they can do something else in range for some reason, which also undermines Dokurider's point a bit.

That said, Dokurider is overall correct in saying that, unfortunately, the A.I. will generally not use Bizen Boat or MP damage in general unless it assuredly interrupts something. Witch Hunt is the exception here, probably because of its range (read: because it hits the whole map).

So, while Bizen Boat probably should be decreased a bit in terms of the MP damage it can do on top of giving it M-EV, we probably couldn't get away with decreasing it all the way to MA*5 if want the A.I. to actually use it. This especially if we're keeping Bizen Boat on Mage Masher and with the MP increases half of Clothes are getting.



Quote from: Otabo on July 20, 2013, 09:23:26 pm
Yeah it is, actually. Sure, the AI typically uses it as a disrupt ability, but it also does use it even when the enemy mage isn't casting anything at the time. I see what you're saying, but the problem with BB is not only that it's AoE, but the thing is both instant AND unevadable. That alone makes it way too good. Not to mention it also doesn't give a care about fury or faith, has no cost whatsoever, and can potentially hit an entire team, unlike most interception abilities which either require charging, are subject to evasion, are subject to faith, is single target, isn't 100% guaranteed to hit anyway (i.e. Insult, Mimic Daravon), can be resisted/avoided/protected against by various equipment in some way or another, or any combination of the above. Add to the fact that the skill is present on a class that has naturally good MA values and can potentially be MA stacked (not that people MA stack just to get more MP damage from BB mind you, I mainly say that for those untis that have stuff like Chiri, Koutetsu and what not, and just happen to have Bizen Boat in their arsenal), and it get quite stupid to deal with. And what's worse is that Bizen Boat can screw over, not just mages, but any unit that has to rely on MP to use their skills to be worth anything. Sometimes, this can be an entire team.


I'd bolded everything that's my real problem with Bizen Boat. The unavoidable AoE wouldn't even be an issue given Witch Hunt does the, but it's the fact that it does SO much damage instantly in an AoE and is capable of outright wiping out MP pools. It's really not uncommon, given how the A.I. bunches up, for at least half of the team to lose all their MP to one Bizen Boat. This especially since Bizen Boat, on top of being a class with naturally above average MA, is also in the same skill-set as what is currently the only reliable and instant Haste adding ability.

So getting mid-charged by Bizen Boat is almost inevitable on top of unlike with Witch Hunt or Spell Absorb. (Magic Ruin would likely similarly be almost inevitable as a mid-charge due to Thief speed...if it had actually been used it more than like half a dozen times ever.)



Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.


These things are rather contrary, especially since it's not like it's that much of a hardship to give a female Samurai lots of MA. Bizen Boat may not exactly be a priority on any teams but Dokurider's "Mana Missile Matrix" team, but it's constant threat and has ability to give any Mage within spell range (since, even with dinky Samurai movement, it effectively has 5 range...the range of most spells) the finger, instantly neutering--well, spaying since they tend to be female--them.

As an afterthought.



Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 07:19:05 am
Yeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?


Absorb MP triggering off MP damage would be a good step towards making Bizen Boat less ridiculous given that Absorb MP already triggers off all the other MP damage abilities. After all, Spell Absorb, Magic Ruin and Witch Hunt all use MP.

MP Restore trigger off MP damage though? Please, no. It's already arguably a bit much that it triggers off any HP damage, though it's properly costed and at least (very) worth using now. Letting it trigger off MP damage too would just obviate MP damage.



So...with all that said, I'll need to actually think more about this personally, especially with all that's probably happening to Dance & Sing/Song between what Dokurider and I were discussing earlier.

I'll try and think about that by tomorrow when I go over...probably Poles and Spears. Shrug.

P.S. I'll respond to Andante49 and Dokurider('s other posts) some time later tonight, probably, after everyone's eyes have been finished glazing over because of this and after I've bothered FFMaster.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

reinoe

2
. Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

...Done? Anyone not get the Star Ocean 2 one?

Anyway, despite the change to P Bag, I still say that we could use another healing weapon that's capable of, you know, actually healing for a significant if only moderate amount. The change to P Bag doesn't exactly do that unless, maybe, you give it to a (male) Samurai...which is kinda undermined in that they get access to Two-Handed Murasame, which is already the strongest healing weapon in ARENA, and Light Robe. Whatever buffs probably given to Healing Staff will also not help P Bag as a healing item comparatively; let's please leave talking about Staves for the end of weapons though given that's easily the most contentious weapon category. P Bag healing on hit just means the A.I. won't be stupid about attacking with a Bag for once in most instances.

Meanwhile, we had no additional healing weapons despite at least one much needed nerf to Auto Potion upcoming. We also still had no healing weapons that could be used from range. And while P Bag actually fulfills the bit about encouraging Mediators to use Praise and Solution instead of idiotically attacking with it, putting healing on a Gun would help Mediators (and Archers and even Chemists) actually be capable of, you know, healing people.

So I came up with this thing that doubles even Chemist healing range, makes it so that Chemists don't necessarily have to use Potions and can undo the damage of the oft-obnoxious Comet, which is only going to get more obnoxious with Auto Potion being weakened. It would also help against the horde of Cursed Ring users; the last part may be hampered by Projectile Guard--it all depends on if that will actually stop a healing weapon. [Did/does Blade Grasp block Healing Staff? If not, then this should get around Projectile Guard when not being used for Hawk's Eye or Breaks or whatever that's actually offensive to even non-Undead.]

All this while at the same time being unlikely to become obnoxious itself. I was originally going to make it only 9 WP to "replace" Auto Potion in a way without stepping on the new Mythril Gun's toes, but then I figured that would make Vector Gun too weak. As it is now, even with 10 WP, it won't really ever out-heal X-Potion, much less Hi-Potion on units with HP higher than 300 HP. At least, it won't do this unless you basically go out of your way to give the user max Fury and either Best compat. or, amusingly, Warpath, which is in itself rather encouraging. If anything, it might need a slight increase to 11 WP, but I'm unsure.

Presently, I'm way more unsure about its range than its WP as Range: 8 might be a tad obnoxious. If no one really complained about that for Romanda Gun, however, I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem for a healing weapon. This especially when every damage-oriented unit can rather easily outdo 100 damage on all but the most defensive of units. [And it's not like 40/40 units are going to be that appealing anymore between the Spellguns' changes and Death's buff.])


So...yeah. Yay? Nay? Maybay?


When I heard "Vector Gun" I was thinking Vector The Crocodile from Sonic The Hedgehog.


Combining two ideas at once here...
Quote from: Barren on January 25, 2013, 02:01:41 pm
Maybe we can do a gun that inflicts faith by chance like Tetragrammation.

If you all know the anime Chrono Crusade, its a gun with high power against demons with low backlash developed by "Elder" Hamilton for the final confrontation against Aion, is given to Rosette by the Father Remington and later used by Chrono.

That can replace the mythril gun I think. It doesn't need 2 MA really


Quote from: Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

I do think that we need a gun that has 8 range.  Mythril gun is terrible and I really can't thing of any context where it's good.  Now what about this idea.  8 Range Healing Gun called Tetragrammation?  It's still thematic "sort of" by healing.  Would a healing gun like this be subject to evasion via Projectile Guard? 

My dreams can come true!

The Damned

July 21, 2013, 10:49:59 pm #1357 Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 08:00:15 pm by The Damned
(And now that I'm back and have bugged FFMaster....)

...I can honestly say that Vector the Sonic character didn't even occur to me, which is especially odd given that I was thinking about more esoteric Sonic characters just yesterday. It's sort of "ironic" even given the ones I was thinking are even more obscure them him, a.k.a. Bean the Bird and Bark the Polar Bear. But, yeah, he's not what's being referenced.

As for names, I guess I wouldn't be...against calling "Tetragrammation" per se; I would just prefer that it stay "Vector Gun" since that's not nearly as reference heavy. I mean, even without getting the Star Ocean 2 reference, it's pretty clear that it's referring to two of definitions for the word "Vector".

Of course, I'm not sure how popular Chrono Crusade even is and know next to nothing about outside of having the ending (willingly) spoiled for me via TVTropes, so either of those factors don't help. So...yeah. I'd rather it stay "Vector Gun" personally, but I'm going to throw a bitch-fit or anything if people really want to call it "Tetragrammation", even as nit-picky as I can be about the names of things.

This is, of course, provided they even like the idea at all.

As for the second one, it might be, unfortunately. We have to check, though I could probably test it really easily tonight...if I had the drive to actually do anything beyond slowly, insidiously destroy people's eyesight.


Quote from: Andante49 on July 21, 2013, 04:33:34 pm
In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?


Yeah, it did. That isn't surprising given ideas fall by the wayside all the time in this thread. That's why I'm being extra anal-retentive in trying to order things for once.

At this point, it seems unlikely to happen, especially since people can't even agree about the regular, HP-affecting Poison & Regen still.

That said, we might as well discuss it again...when we get around to talking about Status, which will probably be the last thing that I personally discuss just because I want to do all of them at once.

Feel free to discuss it now if you want though. As control-freakish as I can be, I'm not going to stop people from talking about what they want.


Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I don't agree that a close range, Faith Spell proc is truly necessary. *Balmung stuff snipped*


Oh, I agree that the Faith-based part isn't "truly necessary". Not even another Dark type weapon is "truly necessary", really, which is more the point of Balmung than anything. I also agree that the average melee fighter is unlikely to up his Faith just to use Balmung, especially if he's not a team where a teammate has Raise (2) or Fairy.

That said, it wasn't meant for the "average melee fighter", which is why I said it was relatively high-risk, high-reward. There's nothing stopping you from using it with 40 Faith or alongside, say, Gokuu Rod or Flash Hat. It's just not going to be as useful for you if you do, which I think is incentive enough since quite a few sword users that otherwise can focus on melee also have above average MA. 

What would you propose we actually do with it then though?

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I was actually more or less agreeing with you in a twisted way by demonstrating just how redundant C Bag has become. *C Bag and Kiyomori stuff snipped*


Oh, I understand the hesitancy too. It probably comes off as me not understanding or not caring about given how...pushy and dismissive I can get about things, but I wasn't entirely discounting people's opinions there. Admittedly, I was initially going to just suggest that no katana have any direct MA-boosting quality, but then rather quickly realized that it was a tad draconian. That's why the +1 MA was initially thrown on my proposal for an increased Asura Knife before Gaignun pointed out my miscalculation.

At present, I'm still up for changing Kiyomori entirely, obviously, if only to help out Muramasa the katana and Two Swords being used on Samurai. I'm also for Bizen Boat getting +1 MA to make it more attractive than it currently is.

I just want katana other than the current Kiyomori to actually be used more than once a blue moon if we went through the trouble of bothering to actually improve them. Right now, Kiyomori dominates the class both because it's braindead and because male Samurai are rather rare.

As for Thief and Rune Blade, I don't think that really proves anything except that either the problem might really be with Rune Blade (& Lionheart) or that Thief has access to Swords in the first place (or that Thief's PA might be slightly too high, like Ninja's).

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
Even in this Wall of Silence we currently have going on, Silence still has applications. *Bizen Boat the katana and Talk Skill...talk snipped*


Again, I'm not saying that Bizen Boat the katana, even with the (Demon) Wall of Silence we have now is bad weapon. Again, Bizen Boat isn't Iron Fan. I'm just saying it's outclassed, will be getting even more outclassed if we're improving Silencer, Gastraphetes, Nameless Dance & even some of the other katana and it also suffers from a bit of a Catch-22. After all, looking at the power Samurai are capable of above, you think people would be using Attack UP on them more. Even if they were, though, they'd currently be using Kiyomori (still) as that has more power than Bizen Boat as does Chirijiraden (and, getting into the elemental swords, so do Asura Knife, Ko(u)tetsu Knife & Kikuichimo(n)ji).

The thing is, though, that Bizen Boat paradoxically doesn't want much more power any, which I realized from the get-go despite my initial ill-conceived buff. After all, striking a mage with that much power is likely to outright kill them rather than "just" Silence them.

All I was saying is that Silence protection use is already waning and people tend to, as you and I both pointed out, forego it on Mediators entirely already. And yet Bizen Boat use hasn't exactly risen up in use even though Silencer currently isn't going to give it any competition. So basically my reply to Gaignun and then CT5Holy (and now you) was less "Bizen Boat is bad" and far more "Bizen Boat is relatively unimpressive and I'll remain skeptical that it sees any real increase in use even if we're making Silence's CT finite".

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I suppose it did. I think it's because no one's really sure if it's better to make MP more available to everyone. While I think it would be a powerful benefit to Fighter types with 24 MP, it could be a problem on Mages, because now they don't need to invest into MP gaining skills so strongly anymore, meaning stronger mages. If MP Regen was to be introduced, I would propose that it heals a flat 4 MP/turn so it helps Fighter types while not helping Mage types (that much). MP Poison, however, will still work on a %MP rate.


I'd support both of those things, though again, I'd personally prefer to talk about statuses at the end of everything.


Anyway, how do you feel about the other stuff, Dokurider? At present, Gaignun's the only person who has directly commented on anything.

Keanu EDIT: Whoa. Didn't realize how horribly I had fucked up that last couple of quotes or how trying to account for Kotetsu Knife's possible typo had accidentally underlined things.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Gaignun

Holy spoilers, Batman.

Quote from: Andante49 on July 21, 2013, 04:33:34 pm
In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?


Implementing MP poison/regen requires ASM hacking.  As none of us here except for FFMaster actively hacks FFTA's assembly code (to the best of my knowledge), we can't push for these status effects too hard.

Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.


I agree about its rare use.  I also agree with Otabo about it being imbalanced by the numbers.  Sinkhole, Magic Ruin, and so forth don't blow up an enemy's entire MP pool like Bizen Boat does.

Make Bizen Boat deal light, non-elemental HP damage with a 100% chance to cancel charging & performing.  There.  It fulfills its original purpose without the nuclear fallout.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
2. Orichalcum: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 MA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because, personally, I really don't think Orichalcum needs to drop down too Katar, yes. Orichalcum, possibly, but it seems unlikely given it doesn't boost itself like Katar does, especially when Two Handed. Shrug.)


Orichalcum needs a nerf, or Orichalcum will become the new Katar, only with 1/2 fewer XA.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
Mage Masher: ...should this go "back" to 50% Silence? Stay with 50% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Silence? Get other changes?

...Or should it just die?


If it should just die, then just leave it.  Its existence is not doing any harm.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
Additionally, Mage Masher is already a mediocre-at-best weapon that is only going to get worse between the aforementioned changes to the Silence-inducing weapons and the much needed buff Spell Edge is getting. Hell, even without buffing Bizen Boat the katana (even though I still think it deserves at least slight buff), Bizen Boat is outright a better weapon than Mage Masher between the katana doing more damage and having a 100% proc.


By the numbers, you're right: Bizen Boat is better than Mage Masher.  Katana are superior to many things in general.  However, katana are accessible by only Paladins and Samurai (i.e. 3 Move 8 SP classes), so they're harder to make the most of.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
[Concerning Mythril and Ultimus Bows] The W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Not that I would mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)


It was a typo.  Thanks for catching it.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
4. Stone Gun: ... This gets an implicit buff from the spellguns being nerfed, which once again makes it the strongest gun overall as it should given its literally initial drawback.


Force-Two Hands makes it a straight nerf.  If Stone Gun gets an implicit buff, we failed.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pmGuns


I give a firm "no" toward any gun getting more than 6 range unless it's as weak as the current Mythril Gun.  We're trying to encourage the use of crossbows, after all.

Vector Gun is a Star Ocean 2 reference?  Wouldn't it be Vectra Gun, or (more accurately) Kaleidoscope?  Regardless, I am fine with a (maximum 6 range) healing gun.  However, straight healing is too similar to potions.  Why don't we follow Barren's suggestion and make it inflict Faith as well?

Avalanche

I dont know it was discusses but i think masamune is stil to strong. What was wrong with it adding Haste OR Regen? Some Ai issues i guess. Otherwise make it add Regen and increase its Aoe

Also:
I thinnk shell and protect could need some buff.  Like make it heal a little Hp. Because the Ai uses it only when some HP is needed