139 changes

[Dokurider]

Gender Issues? Incorrect Portraits? Or something more heinous?

[reinoe]

It is also possible to give them a secondary skillset if people want. Considering they can get RSM, yes, they will need to have the JP cap.

Unfortunately... another problem has arisen...

Problem?  Looks more like a bonus.

[The Damned]

(Hunh, I was just "thinking" of Mimes due to how horribly one performed this morning.)

Them being able to use equipment and RSMs would make them finally useful. This is good because with the actual Mimic skill being so...not guaranteed due to whatever, I was about to come here and suggest we just replace them with Blue Mages, who would actually work 100% of the time.

*remains skeptic about whether this will work given everything else that's going on, especially with the Lore spam thing that Dokurider pointed out*

[Dokurider]

See, I like that Mimes are finally getting equips and RSMs, and I'll support it regardless, it's just it's interaction with Lore is going to be dominating, but trying to stop is difficult to say the least You can't really nerf the damage, CT or anything about the spells or it'll only be useful with Mime Lore. So my suggestion is this: Make the lores Double Elemental. Shadow Shade would be Dark/Ice for an example. This would allow for easier blocking of Lores without destroying their damage output.

[The Damned]

(*is about to go for a walk, but figures he might as well respond to this given how much time he's wasted anyway*)

Sure, that might help a bit, but it probably wouldn't help enough or in the way you think. Even if all Lores became dual-elemental, making them easier to absorb (or halve or null) would still do little to abate the "Lore-Mime"-dominated metagame 139 would quickly become. I mean, at present, due to the way most elemental stuff works, outside of Thief Hat & White Robe, all non-Strengthening elemental equipment affects at most two elements. That means that even if the elements were all of dualities that weren't both absorbed by the same piece of equipment, i.e. your Ice & Dark suggestion, it wouldn't change much. It would just mean there are both now more ways for a Lore-Mime team to absorb coming into a fight and yet that those options would still be limited enough to not really affect the overbearing focus such teams will force the metagame to have.

After all, not every team absorbs any element.

*points to shitty new "Save the Last Dance" team, however flawed*

Similarly, even if every team had at least one member that absorbed the appropriate element, that would still mean the others would be completely fucked, especially if they had high Faith. It would basically be as one-sided as Angelus's "match" against Pride in the mono-class tournament.

I know I've said in jest that I'm usually against "simpler" solutions, but to me, there's really no reason that we can't take the far simpler solution and just make it so that Lores can't be Mimicked. Hell, FFTPatcher comes with a toggle for that and everything and it would be easy to note in the Master Guide.

Then again, Mimes essentially destroying the metagame would enhance my argument for getting rid of them, especially if it remains that no one has found why the hell they randomly fail Mimics a lot of the time, which I doubt FFMaster's great hack would fix.

So, for once, something is "win-win" for me. (Which of course means that something else will go horribly wrong as compensation.)

[FFMaster]

What do you mean by Mimic failing? Do they just not mimic or does the "Mimic failed" message appear?

[The Damned]

(And we're back.)

Of all the damn things to happen at that time, that of course had to. Ugh.

What do you mean by Mimic failing? Do they just not mimic or does the "Mimic failed" message appear?

They will just spontaneously not mimic at times, even if it's the same move that they've literally just mimicked several times in succession and that has no chance of failing, like say the wonderful 100% move that is Quickening. The game will just "skip" their turn to mimic and go on to the normal CT resolution. There's no "Mimic failed" message, since that doesn't even appear for things that are genuinely impossible, like the Mime trying to target something off the map, which it will do, but just fail at.

This is the Mime doing literally nothing at times despite all actions by its allies, at present, being valid targets of Mimicry and it doing nothing inconsistently & at random with seemingly no rhyme or reason to it.

Like I said before, as far as I've know, no one has looked into why this happens even though I'm fairly sure it's been happening since all the way back in vanilla. It's just a lot more noticeable here due to the focus of ARENA on battle, Mimes being a lot more readily accessible without having to grind for class levels and the AI being in control, meaning we can sit back and watch rather than have to actively contemplate decisions.

Shrug.

[CT5Holy]

Yeah, I've definitely seen that happen before. Most noticeable with Sing/Dance since everyone pairs Mimes with Sing/Dance and because they go off multiple times in a given fight.

[FFMaster]

Are you sure that this has happened in vanilla before Damned? I've been testing for ages now and still no failure.

[reinoe]

Are you sure that this has happened in vanilla before Damned? I've been testing for ages now and still no failure.

I know I've seen it before.  I even vaguely remember the fight.  It was a song or dance and a mime just didn't mimic it.  There's one instance where I know it happened.  I'll go find the video.

EDIT:
Found it.  Watch from 12:45-->13:00.  Thanks to TheDamned's notoriously awful luck to get two examples in one 15 second sequence.  Reminds me of Seina Yamada from Tenchi Muyo GXP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsdOCdCPww&feature=youtu.be

[Reks]

The Mime's occasional Mimic fail is even on the FF Wiki for them. They just fail to copy now and then.

EDIT: Direct Quote from it- "There is also a small chance the Mime will fail to mimic."

[FFMaster]

Ok, the Mime at least did an animation, which means that the game knows it should be doing something, but then skips the Mimic action. I'll give a shot at fixing it.

I have no idea what I'm doing right now, and giving it up as a bad job until we have more information when a Mimic will fail.

[The Damned]

(So...I can haz Blue Mage?)

...By Odin's beard, I feel dirty just putting that down.

First, last and only time I'm ever referencing that meme. Damn cats.

But, yeah, thanks for at least trying to look into it. That's more than anyone has done to my knowledge despite the class being from vanilla.

I'd look it at myself but I have the whole "sucks at coding" thing going on. So....

EDIT:
Found it.  Watch from 12:45-->13:00.  Thanks to TheDamned's notoriously awful luck to get two examples in one 15 second sequence.  Reminds me of Seina Yamada from Tenchi Muyo GXP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCsdOCdCPww&feature=youtu.be

...Of course I would be the best example of this even before Otabo slaughtered that very team last night.

Film at 11...PST.

[Eternal]

Man, I thought I was a walking jinx, but poor Damned takes the proverbial cake.

[reinoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92X4sUKlWsw&feature=youtu.be

More Mime fail at 6:03, although the match was already over.

[FFMaster]

That one is easily explainable reinoe. Mime will fail since the Mime was facing the edge of the map, and so will try to target a wave fist off the map. The sing/dance ones are the problem though.

[FFMaster]

Update:

Item attribute system is fully functional, with a few very minor display bugs in Item List (when you go Equip > List) regarding status stuff.
Fixed the Goblin portrait for Mime.
Decided that Mimes will not have a secondary even though they can equip one. Will cause too many balance issues there.
Druid stats are currently:
Male

HP - 144
MP - 72
PA - 8
MA - 8
Speed  - 8

Female

HP - 135
MP - 77
PA - 6
MA - 10
Speed - 8

I will try them out with 4 Move initially. Move -1 will be moved to Druid to compensate slightly. Jump will also be 4. Evasion will be 15%. They will have all of Scholars old Equips, except clothes.

I am liking the idea of making the Lores dual element if they become too strong with the Mime buffs. So those may come up soonish.

[The Damned]

(Ugh. Of course my Internet goes out just as I'm replying to this and trying to upload videos last night/this morning. Of course.)

Good to know that you got some of the issues fixed.

Those stats for Druid look good, but then again, I'm rather horrible at those, so....

Also, I'm admittedly not sure how I feel about Druid getting Move -1, but if they're losing Equip Magegear, then they might not be too bloated between Move -1, Move=0, Distribute, Damage Split and now Inner Beast. Then again, I suppose Distribute or Damage Split could maybe move as well if there's a "need".

*looks at Mediator and then looks at Damage Split*

I have two questions though. Well, technically four, but only two of them are "important" and one is really just a "nagging" one:

1. Are Druids not getting Shields then (at present)?

2. Skill set-wise, how they are looking presently?

3. Did you fix the sprite glitch that Wiz identified (partly assuming that Druids are using the same sprites as Scholars in the first place) with regards to Scholar & Thief?

Update:

Decided that Mimes will not have a secondary even though they can equip one. Will cause too many balance issues there.

This is the fourth question, though it's more a set of inter-related questions: Is this option only being avoided because of balance issues rather than glitchy issues? I mean, avoiding the current "Why the hell is Mimicry being inconsistent" issue, the RSM & Secondary stuff works fine, right? Do Mimes mimic other Mimes' Secondaries?

[FFMaster]

1) Not at present.
2) They will probably have the exact skillset that was outlined originally.
3) That should have been fixed ages ago.
4)There is a special routine where Mimes cannot mimic each other. But a Mime with a secondary is still too strong imo. The Lore spam team being touted in this thread is an example of new Mimes already looking too strong. It can be very easy to just keep the Mime back using Move = 0 and also Lore spam, while Mimicing it as well.

[The Damned]

(Belated "I see".)

I still can't rememember it is that I forgot, but I want to post something that I just found out while "prepping" for one of formerdeathcorps's matches: Apparently, despite your fixing Oil to react to elemental weapon hits, Oil is not dispelled by said weapon hits. Unless, of course, the subject dies as it usually does 99% of the time due to the doubling of the damage.

I thought your hack had managed to fix that due to us both deciding to "fix" Oil lasting Dead by just having Dead cancel it like it does for 90% of other statuses, but...yeah, it doesn't. That could potentially be a "thing" regardless of what you want to happen with Oil, especially since I noticed by way of one of the few weapons affected by the status glitch you talked about, in this case an Ice Bow.

Aside from that, I concur with Gaignun's proposal in the Balance thread that giving us a "general" list of what you intend to change going into 139 as a whole right now would be for the best. Provided you have the time of course....