• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 
September 28, 2020, 12:35:20 pm

News:

Don't be hasty to start your own mod; all our FFT modding projects are greatly understaffed. Find out how you can help in the Recruitment section.


Pokemon: Tactics version

Started by Pride, June 12, 2012, 02:54:18 am

RandMuadDib

Don't want to burst bubbles, but there is a pokemon tactics game coming out this summer (maybe this month, I forget) called pokemon conquest.

On the otherhand, might provide exciting ideas instead of crushing dreams.
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

Elric

We are already aware of Pokemon Conquest and it has nothing to do with this mod..
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

Choto

I'll offer whatever sprite/concept support that I can depending on what happens with school and my schedule in the next couple months. I'd love to work with ya guys on a patch ^_^

Zaen

I think Conquest comes out tomorrow.


At any rate, this sounds epic. I can't wait to see whatever happens next!
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

Pride

I'm glad people are excited ^_^
I'm current working on the next event and planning out the follow events, so there's progress but not much to report at the moment.
  • Modding version: PSX
Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Desocupado

4 - Can you use an alternative evolution system involving non returnable class change? i.e. Charizard requires Charmander job level 8, but Charmander requires Charizard and Charmleon job level < 2.

I was trying to propose something like this:
If you have a Charmander and it gets job level 4, you can upgrade it to Charmeleon.
But if you change his job to Charmeleon, you can't turn him back into Charmander, as Charmander job requires Charmander job level to be bellow 4.

Basically it checks if job level is less than X instead of equal or greater than X to allow a job change.
  • Modding version: PSX

Elric

Desocupado.

Pokemon are Monsters, monsters do not have a job wheel
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

The Damned

June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am #27 Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:47:42 am by The Damned
(While it's true that monsters don't use the job wheel normally, if they use regular jobs slots, they end up being able to access the human generic job wheel if those Jobs aren't set to require Lv. 1 or more of Squire or whatever is in Squire's spot. Assuming that Pride is trying to make more than 48 Pokemon, this is a valid thing to think and ask about.)

Hmmm...this is an...interesting idea. I just don't find myself "getting excited" (not that I ever really do). I figured someone would inevitably bring it up sooner or later, but I'm just not seeing it being able to work out, at least at present. I say this even though I'd probably still kill for a Pokemon MMO-RPG or at least action-RPG even not caring for MMOs and having not really played Pokemon in at least the past half-decade much otherwise.

Regardless, you have my respect for going with Gold & Silver starters. As much as I still enjoy the idea of Pokemon, the games themselves got rather boring and increasingly unbalanced after Ruby & Sapphire.

(Stupid Stealth Rock alongside, among other things, Gamefreak's unwillingness to change glaring type chart issues.)

Anyway, the "Capture" system is actually probably the easiest thing after the Gym Battles to do, really, especially since it's basically Invite. As such, I've some other things to ask that so far haven't been addressed despite being the core of the game:


1. Well, the most obvious question is one of numbers: What and how many Pokemon are planned to make it in? I can understand not wanting to reveal of all of them even if you have them figured, but given there are already 250+ Pokemon by just Gold & Silver and that there are "only" 159 Job spaces in FFT, some of which are still needed by humans...yeah. Even cutting the "fluff" of the useless Pokemon like Unown or Ditto or Sunkern and all instances of Legendary/one-of-a-kind Pokemon, that's still a lot to narrow down. So, while I can understand not having a definite list yet, releasing a partial list and an initial estimate would probably do wonders to help people get (even) more interested.


2. Quite related to that: If there are only eight elements that can be given affinities in FFT, then how are you going to translate Pokemon's seventeen elements? Obviously, you're going to have to cut a little more half of them out, but which ones and how?

I've some ideas about the more obvious ones, but even these ones off the top of my head only get rid of about half of the problem. Normal doesn't need an element obviously, given it's a miscellany of random crap in Pokemon. Dragon, due to how overpowered it is, might as well be non-elemental too. Poison similarly, though for the opposite reason of being woefully underpowered as an attacking type, should probably just be represented by the status of Poison. Similarly to Poison (but not Dragon), Ghost can probably get away with just being represented by the Undead status, at least defensively.

Beyond that, I'm not really sure. Ground & Rock can't be combined under Earth and Ice & Water probably shouldn't be combined, but you might be able to get away with combining Fighting and Steel (offensively) given Fighting hits all the same types as Steel and more. Then again, it's arguable if Fighting should even get to be an "element" and Steel hits at least Bug neutrally while Fighting doesn't....


3. Attack-wise, are you planning to only have moves that come from Pokemon? Or moves that come from Pokemon plus...whatever?


4. How are you going to prevent the player (and the AI) from doing what everyone has wondered from the beginning? That is to say, how are you going to prevent Pokemon from attacking the trainer rather than the Pokemon? Is the trainer just not going to be on the battlefield or...?


5. Similarly, if all Pokemon are to be on the field at once, then how is the 9-different-sprite limitation going to figure into things? Even if Gyms are themed and Pokemon sprites are monster recolors, it seems rather difficult, if not impossible, to avoid that potentially game-crashing problem if all Pokemon are on the field at once....


There are some other things, but these are the main five things that come to mind at present.

Good luck with this.

Quote from: RandMuadDib on June 17, 2012, 09:20:47 pm
Don't want to burst bubbles, but there is a pokemon tactics game coming out this summer (maybe this month, I forget) called pokemon conquest.

On the otherhand, might provide exciting ideas instead of crushing dreams.


But we want to crush dreams. That way we'll get more and more people to work on coherent projects that actually get finished.

That said, isn't that Pokemon Conquest game more to do with Japan's samurai period/"feudal" era? I haven't really been paying attention to it at all.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Pride

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
1. Well, the most obvious question is one of numbers: What and how many Pokemon are planned to make it in? I can understand not wanting to reveal of all of them even if you have them figured, but given there are already 250+ Pokemon by just Gold & Silver and that there are "only" 159 Job spaces in FFT, some of which are still needed by humans...yeah. Even cutting the "fluff" of the useless Pokemon like Unown or Ditto or Sunkern and all instances of Legendary/one-of-a-kind Pokemon, that's still a lot to narrow down. So, while I can understand not having a definite list yet, releasing a partial list and an initial estimate would probably do wonders to help people get (even) more interested.


Currently we're not completely planned on how many Pokemon are going to be included since we'll need some spriter to help with cleaning up the sprites we are importing. We have a general idea of the Pokemon that will be included however which include the obvious Johto starters, the three legendary gerbils, Gastly family, and Tyranitar family.

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
2. Quite related to that: If there are only eight elements that can be given affinities in FFT, then how are you going to translate Pokemon's seventeen elements? Obviously, you're going to have to cut a little more half of them out, but which ones and how?

I've some ideas about the more obvious ones, but even these ones off the top of my head only get rid of about half of the problem. Normal doesn't need an element obviously, given it's a miscellany of random crap in Pokemon. Dragon, due to how overpowered it is, might as well be non-elemental too. Poison similarly, though for the opposite reason of being woefully underpowered as an attacking type, should probably just be represented by the status of Poison. Similarly to Poison (but not Dragon), Ghost can probably get away with just being represented by the Undead status, at least defensively.

Beyond that, I'm not really sure. Ground & Rock can't be combined under Earth and Ice & Water probably shouldn't be combined, but you might be able to get away with combining Fighting and Steel (offensively) given Fighting hits all the same types as Steel and more. Then again, it's arguable if Fighting should even get to be an "element" and Steel hits at least Bug neutrally while Fighting doesn't....


Currently every type can be implemented through an ASM and spreadsheet I created for this patch, so balancing the type chart can be done easily.

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
3. Attack-wise, are you planning to only have moves that come from Pokemon? Or moves that come from Pokemon plus...whatever?


The battle system is probably the thing that hasn't not been planned out as much as other aspects of the patch since I've been focusing on other aspects of the patch. But I'd like to keep the main attacks from Pokemon alive. Some of them will probably have to be balanced in some manner.

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
4. How are you going to prevent the player (and the AI) from doing what everyone has wondered from the beginning? That is to say, how are you going to prevent Pokemon from attacking the trainer rather than the Pokemon? Is the trainer just not going to be on the battlefield or...?


Yeahhhhhhhhh, this is one of the main issues I've been trying to figure out. It'll be something I'll have to figure out via ASM and if it comes down to it. I'll just have to remove the option of bringing the trainer into battle but I'd rather not do that. I'm hoping for a stroke of ingenuity on this.

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
5. Similarly, if all Pokemon are to be on the field at once, then how is the 9-different-sprite limitation going to figure into things? Even if Gyms are themed and Pokemon sprites are monster recolors, it seems rather difficult, if not impossible, to avoid that potentially game-crashing problem if all Pokemon are on the field at once....


Careful planning will basically be required. There are ways around the sprite limit which may have to be worked with.

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am
There are some other things, but these are the main five things that come to mind at present.

Good luck with this.

But we want to crush dreams. That way we'll get more and more people to work on coherent projects that actually get finished.

That said, isn't that Pokemon Conquest game more to do with Japan's samurai period/"feudal" era? I haven't really been paying attention to it at all.


Thanks for the wish of luck : )

More image related things. No Pokemon in it but you'll get the idea.

  • Modding version: PSX
Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Lydyn

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 12:36:11 am4. How are you going to prevent the player (and the AI) from doing what everyone has wondered from the beginning? That is to say, how are you going to prevent Pokemon from attacking the trainer rather than the Pokemon? Is the trainer just not going to be on the battlefield or...?


Um ... can't you just.. put Always: Transparent & Wall? I mean, that won't stop the player from attacking the enemy trainer (I could be wrong, since I haven't tested the transparent status out much), but if that's the case - the player is not the sharpest tool in the shed for trying to attack an immortal enemy. I mean, did I miss something here or is there just an off-chance no one has thought of that yet?

The Damned

(Wow, sorry for that. Didn't realized I fucked up that horribly doing things manually due to this forum not taking you back to the thread when you post. Figures.... Fixed now. Even I don't abuse bold that much.)

Heh. Good to know that part is easy. I'm guessing you can do the same with the "It doesn't seem to affect..." or whatever message that happens when use something that the opposing Pokemon is immune to.

As for the other things, I see:

Quote from: Pride on June 20, 2012, 12:54:40 am
Currently we're not completely planned on how many Pokemon are going to be included since we'll need some spriter to help with cleaning up the sprites we are importing. We have a general idea of the Pokemon that will be included however which include the obvious Johto starters, the three legendary gerbils, Gastly family, and Tyranitar family.


Oh, so you're "just" importing sprites. I see. Well, that both at once solves the sprite problem and potentially makes the 9-sprite problem more severe. Anyway, I can't say that I'm surprised to see Tyranitar; kinda surprised to see the three legendary cats/dogs/non-birds make it in, though, especially given how much Gamefreak seems to hate Entei.

As for deciding on Pokemon, well, as I said above, you can obviously avoid useless Pokemon still even if you're allowing at least some legendaries. You should also maybe exclude Pokemon who get later evolutions past Gold & Silver since that's even more Pokemon to "choose" from; Eevee should maybe be excluded from this, though I'm not exactly sure how you're going to have the evolution Stones work....

Aside from those two categories, I was also going to say to maybe exclude traded Pokemon, but you already plan on using Gastly, so.... You could probably exclude the paired, gendered Pokemon, even if that means omitting Tauros & Miltank; you could maybe get rid of the exclusively gendered ones as well, though ends up getting rid of Chansey & Blissey among others like the Hitmons. You can definitely exclude the baby Pokemon, though.

You could also probably get rid of Porygon, given its artifice, though I rather like the cyber-duck and it could maybe take the place of Worker 8 in some sense.

So that's already 4 "categories" to consider to narrow things down, excluding the legendary one and the trade one. Those 4 alone get rid of a decent chunk off the top of my forgetful head:


1. Useless Pokemon include Farfetch'd (whom Gamefreak hates), Ditto, Unown, Delibird, etc.

2. Delayed Evolution Pokemon include Aipom, Electabuzz, Magmar, Piloswine (technically), Magneton (technically), Rhydon (technically), etc.

3. Paired, gendered Pokemon, for the first two games, are "only" Nidoran M & Nidoran F and their lines and then Tauros & Miltank; "Mr." Mime ironically doesn't count since it not always being male was lost in translation.

4. Baby Pokemon include Cleffa (a.k.a. the only actually cute baby besides Pichu), Igglybuff (ugh), Pichu (I'm surprised Pikachu wasn't guaranteed, then again, Thunder Stone evolution), Smoochum, etc. I can't remember if Tyrogue actually counts as a "baby", but I don't think it actually does; it's more like Magikarp IIRC.


Aside from those, I just remembered that you could also maybe the ones overly reliant on (held) items, though that's really Marowak/Cubone (and technically Pikachu) from the first two games. You should probably also exclude event-only Pokemon like Mew and Celebi and the legendaries that differ by version.

Finally, maybe exclude the other--"the original"--starters given most of the games have made it impossible to get any starters in the wild. However, given their popularity, I don't think anyone would mind you breaking this implicit "rule".


Quote from: Pride on June 20, 2012, 12:54:40 amCurrently every type can be implemented through an ASM and spreadsheet I created for this patch, so balancing the type chart can be done easily.


Oh. So you can ASM more than eight elements in? Interesting....

I'm tempted to ask how that works, but that's more due to Embargo then this, so it seems rude to ask.

Still, good to know.


Quote from: Pride on June 20, 2012, 12:54:40 am
The battle system is probably the thing that hasn't not been planned out as much as other aspects of the patch since I've been focusing on other aspects of the patch. But I'd like to keep the main attacks from Pokemon alive. Some of them will probably have to be balanced in some manner.


Well, most of them should translate decently, especially if you can ASM in more than eight elements. However, the stat-related ones will probably be a problem; the evasion-related ones, or at least the ones that raise it, can screw off, as can Baton Pass.

Spikes and the weather-related ones will probably also be nigh impossible to translate.


Quote from: Pride on June 20, 2012, 12:54:40 am
Yeahhhhhhhhh, this is one of the main issues I've been trying to figure out. It'll be something I'll have to figure out via ASM and if it comes down to it. I'll just have to remove the option of bringing the trainer into battle but I'd rather not do that. I'm hoping for a stroke of ingenuity on this.


(Ugh, fell asleep here.)

Yeah, I rather figured that was going to be a problem, but I think you were just going to a) either remove the trainer entirely, which screws over Items but prevent trainer attacks, or b) use Wall, which basically sends damage to Wall and makes the AI ignore you, but would mean that the player could still attack the other trainer. (Also, using permanent Transparent is rather unnecessary given that Wall already automatically makes the AI ignore whoever/whatever has it on.)

Quote from: Pride on June 20, 2012, 12:54:40 am
Careful planning will basically be required. There are ways around the sprite limit which may have to be worked with.


Ways around?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Elric

Sprite limit has work arounds in planned battles by using event conditions + addunit after a unit is no longer on the field
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

Elric

Quote from: Lydyn on June 20, 2012, 12:27:12 pm
Um ... can't you just.. put Always: Transparent & Wall? I mean, that won't stop the player from attacking the enemy trainer (I could be wrong, since I haven't tested the transparent status out much), but if that's the case - the player is not the sharpest tool in the shed for trying to attack an immortal enemy. I mean, did I miss something here or is there just an off-chance no one has thought of that yet?


It /could/ be done that way, but we are trying to avoid the "jury-rigged" look on things. For best results and appearance we want it to be look proper, not like we had to find a way around doing it a certain way, if that makes any sense

Also sorry for double post, I was at work for the last one and my phone is horrible to type with
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

The Damned

(Of course I remember something only after falling asleep and then hitting enter on that. Also, heh, Elric posts right after I start to type, meaning he wouldn't have had to double post.)

On second thought, the Pokemon that got later evolution probably should be included, if only because that gives you the opportunity to use Pokemon beyond Generation 2 without having to go very "deep". It also lets you keep several popular Pokemon like Electabuzz and Rhydon. Most importantly, it means not cutting Misdreavus just because of Mismagius, which is rather important given that Misdreavus is the only other Ghost type besides the Gastly clan in Generation 2.

Of course, in saying that, I feel like I've forgotten something else now, so I'll probably post again later tonight.

That said, when it comes to expendable Pokemon, please get rid of the racist stereotype that is Jynx. She definitely falls under the "useless"--"Luna" set that hasn't worked in years aside--category, so she and Smoochum can go to Hell.

Quote from: Elric on June 20, 2012, 03:25:21 pm
Sprite limit has work arounds in planned battles by using event conditions + addunit after a unit is no longer on the field


Yes, I gathered as much in general given my workings with Embargo, especially given that would be the most intuitive to simulate the 1v1 Gym Leader battles in the first place.

However, unless I'm missing something here, that does not to really solve the simultaneous issue, assuming that Pride meant 6v6 and not just 2v2 or even 3v3. All it does is get rid of "fainted" bodies.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Elric

Quote from: The Damned on June 20, 2012, 06:24:54 pm
(Of course I remember something only after falling asleep and then hitting enter on that. Also, heh, Elric posts right after I start to type, meaning he wouldn't have had to double post.)

On second thought, the Pokemon that got later evolution probably should be included, if only because that gives you the opportunity to use Pokemon beyond Generation 2 without having to go very "deep". It also lets you keep several popular Pokemon like Electabuzz and Rhydon. Most importantly, it means not cutting Misdreavus just because of Mismagius, which is rather important given that Misdreavus is the only other Ghost type besides the Gastly clan in Generation 2.


We do have atleast 2 or 3 pokemon families picked out for each type, really, we are mainly limited by the sprites that are available thru spriters resource, I've already converted quite a few to FFT sheets, but this is not always an easy thing to do since they don't always have proper walking frames. But I do see your point and we are trying to pick the best/most memorable/most useful Pokemon trees for each type. Alot of what you have mentioned above are things Pride and I have discussed as well :P


QuoteYes, I gathered as much in general given my workings with Embargo, especially given that would be the most intuitive to simulate the 1v1 Gym Leader battles in the first place.

However, unless I'm missing something here, that does not to really solve the simultaneous issue, assuming that Pride meant 6v6 and not just 2v2 or even 3v3. All it does is get rid of "fainted" bodies.


This is true, but when the time comes for this to be addressed, we will find a way to make it work and look good at the same time  ;) so don't worry /too/ much :D

Also, I'm very happy to see so many people interested in this as well, Pride and I had discussed a lot of how the mod should work for a while now and it's nice to finally be able to share some of the ideas with everyone.

Keep the comments coming people!  :mrgreen:
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

Lydyn

*Is lost how the Wall Status would make it look jerry-rigged.* The only other idea is to.. somehow make trainers non-target able, but that seems even more messy in my mind.

Elric

No, I was referring to forcing Transparent on them :P
Non-targetable would be the most preferred method
  • Modding version: PSX
<@Angel> Teach a man to fish and he'll open up a fishery to compete against yours.


Journey of the Five Youtube ChannelThe Lion War Current Status
  
Jot5 Leader :: Eventer :: OtherTLW Leader :: Eventer :: Other

Lydyn

Oh, my bad. =P Damned is right... transparent was redundant. I had just forgotten. Just put Wall status on them, I say. ^^

The Damned

(Sigh. Of course I didn't respond to this.)

Hmmm...I still can't remember what it was that I forgot, even though I know that I briefly did remember before my last post, at which point I had forgotten again. Still, I want to say that it had something to do with Mewtwo or Mew. Maybe.

Anyway, while I'm still kinda curious about the "more than eight elements" thing, something else had occurred to me later that same day after my last post that my lazy ass apparently forgot to get around to relaying:


With regards to the whole "monsters attacking humans and humans attacking monsters" dilemma, if you can indeed make more than eight elements somehow, then couldn't you just make an 18th dummy element? What I mean by this is couldn't you make a "Human" element that's at once both immune to all other types (including Normal) and to which all other types are immune to?


I'm not entirely sure what your numbers limit on elements are or what you're doing with regards to equipment and attacks or how you would prevent item abuse in battle, at least in the sense of Poke Balls. However, it should be another, (more) valid alternative rather than just slapping Wall on them, especially since Wall only works defensively (at present).

Actually, now that I think about it, what are you planning to do with equipment (at present)?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"