FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Squidgy]

Shadow Shade on Scholars only hits the first target currently. (Not a popular ability I assume)

Kinda ruined my gag group... oh wait, I know how to fix it.

[FFMaster]

That might be because of the animation I chose. I'll check it really quickly.

EDIT: Yeah, the animation doesn't like hitting multiple units. But it works just fine. Will be fixed in next patch.

[Gotwald]

Could we just make the scholar spells look like other spells? Like, have the earth tome spell look like quake? it would go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY faster, and should still show the animation for the damage and healing (as quake already does that)

[FFMaster]

We could, yeah, but it would be confusing since they already have the Quake spell, which uses that exact same animation. Spell names already do not appear, and now they have 2 spells which use the exact same animation? I agree the slowdown is bad, but that will just confuse people even more. I would rather remove persevere from Scholar and double the damage it deals.

[pokeytax]

Paladins seem kinda overpowered.  Best HP, best PA, best equips, an actual skillset instead of Battle Skill, enough MP to cast any spell you want a Paladin casting.

Wiznaibus is unusable, my team certainly isn't the best possible setup but a dead slot would have been better.  I think 2.5x damage and 2x CT might make it barely garbage-tier viable.

I'll kinda miss the artificial Cheer Song from Speed Save/Lore, but I think FFMaster's solution is best, all in all.

[Zaen]

Yeah... Paladins are OP. Especially with Axes. I mean, 712 damage? Ridiculous. They are basically 1HKO killing machines in most cases. It would almost be best to make Squires more of a Knight class with better PA, slightly lower HP, Ultima + Breaks or something like that, and Axes. Then, ...axing... axes from Paladin.

Just a few possible remedies.

[Shade]

How about 812 damage on 1.3 without any kind of damage boost(at AI tournament). It's called luck, axes damage calculation is pure luck. They aren't usually one shotters. At best axes would be changed to lower damage or something. Don't know about best equips, They can equip, or some other very usefull clothes.
20 HP to next best HP
1 PA to next PA
Paladins are lacking MP compared to geomancer and squire
Paladins MA is low
They have also only 4 move
They have maybe the next best equipment at best
They don't have very usefull skillset(even AI doesn't seem to use it much as it does every other skillset)

Their best ability is that they aren't complicated at all, their skillset is yes, but their hp and pa makes them easy to use for straight damage or just tanking. They are not the class that is OP, but it's overrated. I don't see any reason to change expect their skillset.

It's funny that squires have the best equips, very good stats, very good skillset(because of so many difffrent type of abilities(buffs, revival, status heal, PA increasing ability, strong magic, dash and throw stone very good at damage(I have seen 140 damage without crits or anything based on luck), not counting reactions and stuff), So why would you change that class? Squire is so underrated!

Comments on Paladin skillset(not on reactions and stuff):
Nurse: Don't know haven't seen how does AI use it, but it so far doesn't seem to be usefull. It could be kick ass abilty if you would add protect to it
Dia:  ... It's so good againts high faith units, but it's no strong on knight at all, so take it for someones else skillset
Consecration: FASTLY WEAK COMPARED TO SEAL EVIL
Transfusion: You could give it HP buff, cause every another aoe heal doesn't take damage and they are good as this(also can be boosted to be even better while transfusion, not so much).
Iron will: Only use that I can think is when AI is at crit and has move hp up, this would add protect and regen to be pain to finish off, but nurse is better then this and even nurse isn't very good
Magic Ward:Only reason to use this if you have full hp and someone is charging at you deadly spell that will follow you and you are out of range to do anything. I doubt that this would be ever used...
Grand cross: could be the best ability to have out of all, just haven't used it.

Overall:
Not good, I have foun every skillset better then this, even

[Squidgy]

I don't think the graphic overlap will matter. People will see Scholar, see charging, see it hitting every unit on the map. It should be self-evident, even if the graphic was Ice 1... but the graphic should be lined up with the element.

Paladin for stats + Equip Armor/Shield. Squire for stats + Equip Shield. Paladin skillset does seem to be... lacking, but nobody picks Paladin for the skills. In my mind for skillsets, all I'm looking at is "Status Cure? Worthwhile status Inflict? Rez? Anti-Critical, not-terrible-for-AI heal? MP heal? Haste? Slow? Imba Ability?"

Squire: Status Cure, Rez, Haste... haven't tested Throw Stone or Ultima yet. Squire seems OP to me.
Paladin: Heal, AI never used Grand Cross for me . Seems OP too, but only due to HP, PA, and Armor. Would be nice for there to be multiple subpar-skillset "Please Salty Rage Me" jobs, defining each with higher HP, higher PA, or versatile equips... not all 3 on one job.
Scholar: All Magic ruins AI so they'll never Wish/Phoenix Down. Good? Bad? I get annoyed with it, just because my Scholar has Phoenix Down, and ignores using it 'cause she's casting Natural Selection, but I like it too, 'cause anti-Sandbag is good, and they therefore have a niche.
Geomancer: The damage does get a bit ridiculous sometimes, with ignoring Evasion/Faith... I guess that's all Elemental does, so I'm not callin' for a nerf, just some QQ. Stats being across-the-board worse than Squire is an eyebrow raiser, especially since Squires get a very utility-packed skillset.
My 1.3 suggestion on Cheer Song: Clone of Nameless which only does Haste. I do hate how potent Haste is when only 2-3 sources are worthwhile. Time Magic, Yell (sorta)...

Lemme know if I get Shuriken nerfed... least I'm trying to. A Save Punch Art isn't as cool as I thought it'd be, so I doubt that'll get nerfed. MA Save... bah, wasn't impressed. Maybe on a Mediator?

[The Damned]

First and foremost, I'm liking most of the 127 changes, especially Cover Fire, Draw Out and Geomancy/Elemental (though the table doesn't say it is) being evadable now. Not sure how I feel about Critical Quick (which still says it activates on criticals only) and MP Restore activating outside of critical, but I can definitely see why, even if I'm rather weary of the former. We'll see how that takes (eventually).

Secondly, I have to say it's pretty awesome that Oil is working now. FFH did something the original designers of the game couldn't (or didn't, considering other things, get time to) fix. That's definitely something to be proud of.

Next, I would only ask what I say next be considered as suggestions and not taken as demands, especially since I've been kind of gone/inactive as of late.

Lastly, I might as well admit that there is also a bit of bias in the last two suggestions, if only because no one else besides me (at least that I can actively recall right now) seems to use the abilities in question. I will also note that I'm probably going to use bold a lot, even given how obnoxious it will probably look; my apologies in advance:

• Maintenance: It seems like this should be at most 100 JP, maybe even only 50 JP given that Break skills don't exist anymore and no one really uses Steal skills that actually target Equipment, especially with Thieves have gained all the Ruin abilities. Even if people did still use Steal Weapon and Steal Accessory (I believe those were the only two Steal [Equipment] ever used in Arena's history), having Maintenance means that the computer wouldn't even spend (read: most often waste) turns trying to Steal given that Maintenance causes all things to go to 0%. In fact, thinking about it even more and how incredibly narrow and defeatist it kind of is, especially since literally every other Support has some use (outside of Monster Talk at present, but that will probably get some use when Monsters finally debut), I honestly think it would be fine if Maintenance was free.
• Steal [Equipment]: Speaking of Steal, can the equipment-stealing abilities still be physically countered and such?  
• Holy Water: Given that Blood Suck no longer exists and, AFAIK, isn't be replaced with any new status, I think that Holy Water could now either cure Oil or Death Sentence. Both of those would make sense, but perhaps Zombie enough by itself is enough. I certainly wouldn't advocate lowering the JP for Holy Water ever and, to be honest, I'm not sure how the AI is about curing either of those statuses, especially since Oil never worked in game and (enemy) units tend to ignore Death Sentenced ones.
• Maiden's Kiss: Similarly, IIRC, doesn't forced Chicken still wear off automatically? And isn't Chicken induced by Brave loss not curable by anything other than raising the afflicted's Brave? I don't know, while the transformation thing makes sense as being what it cures, it seems like it could cure a more worry status, like Sleep or Charm, especially given the former still lasts pretty damn long. You'd likely have to double the JP to 200 if that was the case though, so I'm again unsure about this particular suggestion, especially given that Item is still the best skill set of all them.
• Arrow Guard/Projectile Guard/Blur/Whatever: It seems like it could be 350 and still be fine given how little people tend to use Guns and how shields and/or mantles suffice for arrows coming from units without Concentrate. Maybe even 300, but as I admitted, I'm a bit biased.
• Ignore Height vs. Teleport vs. Fly: I believe back towards the beginning of the year, when I was actually still working on things, I mentioned how annoyed I was realizing that all Jump-based movements were obviated by Teleport or even Fly. As such, while Arena has improved quite a lot of things, it seems rather odd that Ignore Height is still obviated by Fly given that both are 300 JP. I mean, yes, they're in drastically different classes, but "dipping into the class", they're still the same and given how cheap Bard/Dancer abilities are compared to Lancer abilities....
  
  Teleport is a whooping 500 JP deservedly and since Fly basically IS Teleport in most instances given the AI will never try to Teleport farther than it actually move. The only real difference between Fly and Teleport in the AI tournament is on the few maps with ceilings or "caves", though those currently exist enough for Teleport to still be superior to Fly; there may be other restrictions that I'm not aware of. As such, I think that Fly needs to increase to somewhere within the 350-450 JP range. I was thinking of 400 JP personally, but depending on how few (usable) maps there are relative to the whole where Fly isn't basically just Teleport by another name, it may merit 450 JP.

I think that's all the suggestions I have at the moment. I hate to come back and go right back to being a long-winded, nagging asshole, but I guess some things will never change, even as much as Arena rapidly might.

[Squidgy]

Never tested, but I heard Fly negates falling damage if you're knocked off a cliff, which makes it more potent than Teleport in an AI setting unless it's one of those rare settings with two heights. Same cost imo, up near 500. Move-HP Up could use a cost raise since it's a definitive best-in-slot... Unless we're trying to make all move skills on par... and nerf HP Up to the ground.

Critical Quick: should I try to break this? It's just asking for it... thinking double Sage + Mime + Crit Quick Conc Pally... or MA Up Squire. I'll replace my gag team with this.

[FFMaster]

You can't abuse what has already been fixed. It was a coding error. All hosts should import the new BATTLE.BIN.

[Squidgy]

Bah... back to the old gag team then.

[pokeytax]

The new Lore animations are an improvement.  Cover Fire is still wicked (it was marked as evadeable before I thought) but lots of people are running it so it's getting tested.  Have to remind myself the point of balance is not to remove all effective abilities!

Many JP costs, especially R/S/M, could be overhauled.  I don't think lesser Reactions will ever get used until you have to make harder choices to get Speed Save or Damage Split.

The movement slot is kind of terrible and not much can be done about it (I'm assuming they're a pain to hack).

All of The Damned's changes seem reasonable.  I am going to run a Death Sentence team soon because I think adding Cancel: Death Sentence to Cancel: Dead items is a huge buff to the status, and Holy Water might be a good balance to that.

Right now a Monk can hit 19 PA out of the box, which is pretty sick - I would either drop the 2 PA handbag or revert Monk PA or both.

[PX_Timefordeath]

All items with Cancel: Dead do have Cancel: Death Sentence already

[Shade]

Also make grand cross not hit on user(makes AI not use at all).

[The Damned]

Speaking of Paladin skills targeting the user, something just occurred to me: FFMaster, can Dia target and hit the person casting it? The answer I want to hear is "yes", but first I need confirmation one way or the other and it's not like it's something that makes or breaks things.

Also speaking of Paladin skills, the life gain from Nurse probably needs to be nerfed to within the 20%-25% range.

Also, I forgot earlier, but Float (Time Mage Movement) could probably stand to be a bit cheaper since it's basically just a glorified Jump +1 that competes with other Movement skills as well as Feather Boots given that the Volcano map is almost never used. Sure, it has Earth immunity, but most people that are concerned with Earth will just use a piece of equipment to absorb it.

[FFMaster]

Maintainence can lose a bit in JP cost, yes.

For Holy Water, I do like the idea of removing DS/Oil.

Similar agreements to Maiden's Kiss.

I can make Dia be able to hit the caster, which would be very interesting.

As for super reactions like Damage Split, I'm not too sure about raising the cost. They already take a lot to buy.

As for Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up, I am quite sure I can change the formula they use. In fact, it *may* be possible to make multiple variants of it, each one using a different formula.

The rest, I have no opinion on.

[The Damned]

Personally, I think that Speed Save could stand to be even more expensive due to how Speed pretty much strengthens everything and thus is so important. It's also (a lot) easier to abuse Speed Save than it is Damage Split, which I think should probably left as is JP-wise, because even as abuse as it can be, it can backfire (also unlike Speed Save) and inherently weak to Two Swords. The only debilitating thing about Speed Save is that you go through 300 CT (much) more quickly and thus "die" permanently (much) faster than other units. That's not really enough as it is, especially with Lore around to whore with it.

Completely un-related to that (well, I guess not really since I've been wondering this about Lore), how do we tell what's (still) Reflectable and what isn't? I didn't really think to look until I stumbled across the S4 AI tournament--that I somehow completely missed--videos in the 1.3 section.

[Shade]

Shuriken's formula is OP, with knight sword it does same amount as knight sword would do, not only that, but you can icrease it by speed save, with setup that use lore.
Resulting in 400 hp knight that moves fast and does 200 damage at range instantly.

I wondered that if having strong weapon would make strong, it seems I was right.

[The Damned]

I have to concur with Shade about Shuriken being rather disgustingly overpowered, though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually at present than it is about abuse of Knight Swords, especially when the strongest Knight Swords have the least benefits. I'll quote what I just said in the video thread:

Hmmm...despite it arguably being Ninjutsu's only useful skill, Shuriken needs some type of chance, if perhaps being made evadable. (Concentrated EDIT: Oh, it already is Physically Evadable. Damn Concentrate.) It probably needs more than considering how much Speed Save makes it ridiculous. Oh well, more fodder for my argument that Speed Save's JP cost needs to be increased even more.

Speaking of crappy Ninjutsu Skills, man does Shinobi's Seal blow. I think I've only ever seen it hit twice and even when it did, it didn't do anything worthwhile.

Shuriken definitely needs a formula change since it can be made unavoidable with Concentrate. Problem would be what to change it to given the current...restrictions on usable formulas. I unfortunately can't suggest in anything off the top of my head since I'm well aware how much most of them suck.

Shinobi's Seal definitely needs a boost, though. I would actually say the same thing about Sunken State (in that it needs a JP reduction), but I'd sooner see that skill disappear entirely than start to give a damn about it.