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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

The Damned

Since R999 pointed this out in the tournament thread, I have to ask this: Did you remember to flag Kiyomori and Masamune as Random with the regards to the AI flags?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

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The Damned

This explains so much with regards to Masamune....

That's good to know. Would you be willing to change that after we end this current test tournament?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

I honestly do not like Random Hits. Either way, it would make the AI dumb. Random Hits is why Kanbabrif doesn't spam Banish every turn. People wouldn't use it whether or not it has Random Hits. Those abilities will have to be remade. Sigh.
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philsov

So the list of stuff that needs to be "fixed" is...

Kiyomori
Masamune
Nameless Dance
?Nameless Song?

???

I dislike the random hits flag, too.  I'd rather these things be weaker but worthwhile than zomg the AI -might- use them.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

The Damned

If you're talking about stuff that needs to be "fixed" via Random (or some other presently unknown solution), then yes, only those four abilities seem to be the only ones that need to changed.

If you're not then, then obviously more things like Last Dance, Last Song and Life Drain would be qualifying.

As for disliking the random hits flag, isn't the whole point of doing this test out how AI would perform with certain abilities in AI tournaments? Why immediately discount it when it's the easiest, most sensible solution?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

PX_Timefordeath

I hate the random hits flag, as philsov pointed out, I'd rather have a weaker and usable ability than an ability the AI -might- use. AI with random hits flags is pretty much the same as banning an ability, because the AI is on average never going to use it.

Skip Sandwich

Ultima needs fixing as well, it's values are all out of whack. Here's how it stacks up against 2nd tier black magic (it's closest match in terms of current power level)

It has lower power then a tier 2 black magic spell (17 vs. 18)

It has no AoE (versus black magic with AoE of 1)

Much higher mp cost (30 for Ultima versus 12 for Black Magic)

Longer CT (5 for Ultima versus 3 for Black Magic)
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CT5Holy

Don't forget about JP cost (500? vs 180).
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Skip Sandwich

@CT5
that's a good point as well, if we go by jp cost, we SHOULD be comparing Ultima to a Tier 4 black magic spell.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

FFMaster

Right now, the only thing Ultima has over the other spells is the fact that it is unevadable. But yeah, it really needs major buffs. I was thinking of making it not Faith based, as well as making an Ultima 1/2/3, to give it a few uses over Black Magic.
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Skip Sandwich

oh, and another thing, Quick should probably be flagged such that it cannot target the caster, because otherwise the AI will simply spam quick on itself (the casting unit) until it runs out of mp.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

FFMaster

Updated all stats and skillset tables. Take a good look.
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The Damned

Might be useful if you made a change list of what you changed. From what I can gather, all you changed were adding new moves to Squire and Archer. I'm not sure what you changed with regards to stats.

Anyway, now that the tournament is over, IMO, here's what needs to be looked at ability-wise--I'm not going to touch stats since outside of Thief, I don't see any glaring problem:

  • Summoners don't need Innate Half of MP. There's really no reason they should be able to have that, Short Charge AND Move-Up MP.
  • Last Dance needs to be weakened drastically. I could say 25% chance to hit, maybe even 20%.
  • Last Song, even though no one used it, similarly needs to be weakened drastically by the same parameters (and maybe even more).
  • Nameless Dance, as much as dislike it, probably needs only to lose Frog or Stop and would otherwise be fine.
  • Remedy and probably X-Potion needs to be weakened. Or, rather, X-Potion could probably stand to be removed with Hi-Potion being boosted to 100 and Potion coming back and healing 50. As for Remedy, there's really no reason that it should heal almost everything.
  • The Steal skills need to ignore evasion and prompt less reaction abilities (provided some other changes aren't made).
  • Odin needs to lose the instant death ability. If it must keep the Instant Death ability, then make it linear. There's no reason for something that can cause instant death to able to target more than one unit so easily.
  • Similarly, Silf really don't need Don't Act. It would appear that you changed Silf too, since it seems to inflict Don't Act or Don't Move. This is an odd choice, since Silence was fine and if anything should have Don't Move, it should be Titan. Since Silf actually does damage now (and can do quite a bit of damage), I personally don't see why it should do anything other than Silence.
  • Life Drain probably needs to be lowed down to 25% or even 20% damage/absHP. As it is, there's not much incentive to use Demi--Demi 2, maybe--even with the AoE.
  • Dispel Magic should probably be reduced to 1 CT and have its MP reduced a bit.
  • Concentrate needs to have its JP cost upped.
  • Sunken State's JP cost needs to be reduced, probably even halved.

I'm sure I'll think of more later. Besides that, I still don't know how I feel about Greased Bolt (because no one used it) and even though you split up Ultima into two levels, it's still rather weak.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

1) Agree
2) Agree
3) Agree
4) Right now, it has lost a lot of the worst statii.
5) Probably.
6) Either that or a new skillset completely. There is no reason to get Steal while Battle Skill is around. Or change Battle Skill and keep steal.
7) What do you mean by linear? Plus, its a low chance to hit and can be stopped fairly easily. If people like high risk, high reward attacks, then fine. I personally would rather use the Death spell from Black Mage.
8) Silf got changed recently to status only. Lower %hit than Paralyze and Don't Move, but AoE. Also, it only inflicts one or the other.
9) Either that or Demi should be buffed.
10) Agree
11) Agree
12) Sunken State will probably just be removed. Transparent messes the AI too much

Ultima is actually fairly strong. with some MA gear, it can deal about 200 damage. It's not faith based.

EDIT: Stats changed were very minor : +1 move to all units. +1 range for a lot of abilities (most spells, Earth Slash, Kiku, and a few others)
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The Damned

With regards to Odin, I mean a linear attack like how Earth Slash and Kikuichimoji are. And it's less that Odin is risky than that it can pay off so easily (and, really, people tend not to use Cancel: Dead equipment, even with Secret Fist Dancers around).

With regards to Ultima, hunh, I didn't see that. I would still argue that they would like their casting times slightly reduced, but as it stands now, they're hardly my biggest concerns.

If Silf is back to status only, then I guess Don't Act or Don't Move is fine. I'm similarly fine with Sunken State just being removed, especially since it's outclassed by Concentrate anyway.

As for Steal, well, as I said in the Thief thread, it's probably easier to make it compete with Knight by making it less dangerous and more accurate to use than Battle Skills and maybe giving Thief new skills over the useless Steal Gil and Steal EXP than to try to design an entirely new skillset. This and a few other changes would probably make Thief useable. I find this especially true considering that Scholar is still new and needs more testing. If you want to try to make something from scratch though, it's really up to you and Aero and PX.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

It looks like Thief is going to stay, and instead, Knight is going to get a makeover. If this goes through, it will become a Paladin. Thanks Aero and Eternal.

Here is a small list of abilities. Very rough draft.
Nurse - Heal_(25)% Hit_(PA+80)%
Dia- Minor Holy damage from afar and Blind.
Consecration- Kills undead surrounding the Paladin
Transfusion- Sacrifices HP to restore the health of adjacent allies. (AoE Wish)
Iron Will: Protect/Regen on self.
Magicward- Shell and Reflect on self.
Dispel - Hit_(PA+80)% remove +status
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The Damned

Heh, that's a promising take on Paladin, though it does raise the question of what exactly should happen with Kiyomori and Masamune somewhat indirectly view Magic Ward and Iron Will respectively. Dispel seems rather unnecessary, especially since Dispel Magic doesn't get used anyway. Transfusion could easily kill the AI.

Other looks like a good start. (Also solves the small problem of Slow being dished out almost exclusively by Knights and Knights also somewhat obviating Silence with Magic Ruin.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

I think Move-HP Up should be moved to another class, and that move-HP Up and Counter Flood JP costs should be increased. And maybe Auto-Potion needs a slight nerf?

EDIT: Updated base stats for units. Specifically, there was an error for Squire in MA and MP, Time Mage gains 1 speed while losing 1 MA, and Summoner gains a lot of MP while losing Half of MP. Squire loses 10% evasion, while Thief goes to 20% evasion.


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philsov

Last Dance:  A unit basically sacrifices its turns to remove turns from the opposing team.  At a rate of 25%, that is -breakeven-.  I recommend 33% personally.  So it'll on average knock out one person, and maybe snag another, for a net gain plus or minus RNG.  

Nameless Dance:  Needs to be without the random hits flag, but in order to make it effective with the AI it needs to lose any status that would make the AI plum ignore units.  So confusion is definitely out...... and looking at the updated front page we're in agreeance on most of the stuff so moving on.

Drawout:  We've learned that no random hits on multi-hit abilities suck, so we need to do something about kiyomori and masamune.  Perhaps kiyomori being AoE Shell (and shell only) with Masamune being AoE regen (and regen only)?  AoE regen does have some AI qwerks, but certainly that only happens when the samu also doesn't know Murasame, ya?  Pure instant AoE haste is too good imo, but we can gut any other draw out for an AoE protect.  Also I'd prefer to see some variety within the skillset since all the damaging ones are mostly interchangeable.  They could stand to gain another linear attack, perhaps?

Autopotion - Could stand to be tweaked to 50 HP.

X-Potion - 150 HP really is fine.  It seemed a bit OP on my dancers because they had protect and shell with minimal fury and faith, but really.... when a strong single-target attack occurs (hello kaz's archers), the damage isn't completely negated, and when AoE occurs (hello Kaz's samunners) it can only grab a single unit so the rest of the crew keeps the damage as well.

Ethers - Need some loving.  Maybe 30 and 70?

Lore:  Needs to be gutted.  But I've already discussed that in further detail.

Bards and Dancers:  Don't need 4 move -_-.  4 move is actually harmful to them.

Move HP/MP Up - seem like a too good for the JP combo with other R/S from classes in their current one, but shifting them to other similar classes has almost the same effect no matter where you slice it.  At least counter flood doesn't also provide defense, unlike equip shield/speed save/etc.  Maybe priest for Move MP Up.  Maybe.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.