FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[Dome]

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

I disagree here
IMHO If someone actually does all the work to get them, let him take the reward (Search for the monster, invite him, save, poach him and hope that he became the rare poach, otherwise reset and so on)

[philsov]

so blade grasp is fine so long as it costs 5000 JP?

[Dome]

so blade grasp is fine so long as it costs 5000 JP?

Blade grasp is gamebreaking (That's why you should never get it, or change it to block only some kind of weapon)
Some good equip that you are going to get anyway isn't
Still IMHO ofc

[LastingDawn]

I agree on the poaching front, I wish there were a way to make it so you couldn't poach your own party but... that would be a lot of work, aside from that I'd say lower the ridiculous prize for some of them and move them elsewhere.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

!

Why didn't I include this earlier?

1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

I had a big reply to this, but firefox ated it.

Short, only do 1 and 2, or just 3.  1 and 2 solve it by putting the monsters with epic poaches in Chapter 4 battles only, 3 solves it by making the poaches impossible.

I'm not understanding the hate anyway - if someone invests a lot of time grinding, shouldn't they get *some* kind of return?  An ability like Blade Grasp (your earlier example) doesn't quite work since abilities can be inherited, though I guess the counter-argument here would be scaling Levels in 1.3, to which I'd reply that Level grinding is the easiest and least time-consuming of them (Auto-Battle! Which is another simple counter to the whole 5000 JP Blade Grasp thing), whereas grinding for abilities and equipments while trying to NOT level too far above and get screwed by scaling takes far more effort.

[Sephirot24]

I agree with Phil, and the Blade Grasp Example.

Blade Grasp totally breaks the game though. Poaching makes it quite easier. And besides, he's not wiping it out completely, he just wants to make it happen at a later time. If you want to break the game, go ahead, just do it in the last chapter.. not in the middle of the game.

[philsov]

1) ASM hack to disable monster breeding.  Yes, everyone is going to be an infertile porky.

2) Fine-tune what monsters crop up where.  and when.

3) Refine the poaching list to prevent grind-and-faceroll with Sasuke Knife/Yoichi Bow/Bracer/etc in early chapter 3.

Short, only do 1 and 2, or just 3.  1 and 2 solve it by putting the monsters with epic poaches in Chapter 4 battles only, 3 solves it by making the poaches impossible.

No, there's some major synergy between them.  For example, Woodman (tier 1 tree people) had the rare poach of Yoichi bow.  That bow is better than any buyable bow.  Ever.  and it becomes immediately available after killing queklain, before all the other buyable bows are even unlocked?  That's not good design.

If I only do 1 and 2, that sort of thing still occurs, unless I lock up the entire tree family into the middle of chapter 4 which I am simply not going to do when all I have to do is throw a few switches and simply make that item unavailable until later by throwing it onto a different, later-teir monster that won't be seen until chapter 4, and maybe not even immediately into chapter 4 either.  

Alternative wording for 3:  Make it so the monsters that are poachable early on don't have end-game gear.  

if someone invests a lot of time grinding, shouldn't they get *some* kind of return?

Nope.  

Enemy levels scale with party so you can't invest a lot of time grinding and get a massive reward.  The design idea as far as battle difficulty goes is at least half of the enemy equipment is on par to what the player can pull over, and the other half is random/level based.  The alternative to this is equipping many enemies at the start of chapter 3 with overpowered and out of place gear.  But that will not be happening, as it renders shops useless, removes any future gear scaling, and is a massive difficulty spike for anyone who hasn't invested hours in poaching runs for rare drops.

whereas grinding for abilities and equipments while trying to NOT level too far above and get screwed by scaling takes far more effort.

Have an alternate randon/poaching crew and learn all abilities through spillover JP (autobattle is easy, yes?).  I'm not seeing extra effort, nor should players be rewarded for "trying really hard".

[RavenOfRazgriz]

No, there's some major synergy between them.  For example, Woodman (tier 1 tree people) had the rare poach of Yoichi bow.  That bow is better than any buyable bow.  Ever.  and it becomes immediately available after killing queklain, before all the other buyable bows are even unlocked?  That's not good design.

If I only do 1 and 2, that sort of thing still occurs, unless I lock up the entire tree family into the middle of chapter 4 which I am simply not going to do when all I have to do is throw a few switches and simply make that item unavailable until later by throwing it onto a different, later-teir monster that won't be seen until chapter 4, and maybe not even immediately into chapter 4 either.

Alternative wording for 3:  Make it so the monsters that are poachable early on don't have end-game gear.

That's better.

Moving the Yoichi Bow from say, the tier 1 Tree to the tier 3 Tree makes sense.

Your old wording made it seem like you were going to do this ridiculousness, then take the Poaches off entirely anyway.  That would've been stupid.

This seems better on first look, even if 1) kills most hopes of Beastmaster on ASM'D.

Nope.  

Enemy levels scale with party so you can't invest a lot of time grinding and get a massive reward.  The design idea as far as battle difficulty goes is at least half of the enemy equipment is on par to what the player can pull over, and the other half is random/level based.  The alternative to this is simply equipping many enemies at the start of chapter 3 with overpowered and out of place gear.

Sounds like my argument for flat stat growths.

A player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)?  That's biased and silly.

Have an alternate randon/poaching crew and learn all abilities through spillover JP (autobattle is easy, yes?).  I'm not seeing extra effort, nor should players be rewarded for "trying really hard".

Auto-Battle is indeed easy.

I'll get you next time, Captain Planet!

[philsov]

1) kills most hopes of Beastmaster on ASM'D.

I realized that =\.  No spirit of life until chapter 4?  Asspack time.  But on the plus side trees are keeping 2 movement because 1 is just waaaaaay too little.  

A player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)? That's biased and silly.

But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I realized that =\.  No spirit of life until chapter 4?  Asspack time.  But on the plus side trees are keeping 2 movement because 1 is just waaaaaay too little.

Not even that, though that probably will make Queklain a giant flaming bitch.  And reminds me I need to get one of those Trees once I'm out of Golgorand Execution Site.

I was more referring to Wildbows, as I find them more useful earlier on.  But the result is the same.

At least we can get like 28305 Red Dragons from Araguay Woods and pray those and Red Panthers / Cuars can carry us through?

Wait, you're probably taking those out too.  

Yeah us Beastmasters are really fucked.  Thanks, philsov!

But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Spillover grinding / Level 1 beating already makes Chapter 3 far easier than it should be.

Trust me, I would know.

If you're condoning that, don't even bother touching the Poaches.  IMO, the abilities matter far more than those Poaches, even though some of the Poaches are indeed ridiculous.

Overpowered abilities and creative on-the-way Stealing got me through Chapter 3 with little difficulty in regular 1.3, and I used very few of the Items I actually stole.  Most of the ones I did use (besides the Thief Hats, which I honestly used less than I thought I would sans on my Thief) were buyable before the Chapter was out.

So yeah, the whole Poach-through-Chapter-3 thing... that's not as big a worry as you're making it, as the JP grinding an an IQ point or 3 already make the Chapter a pretty good joke.

Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.

Less method than you think there is, I'd say.

Just kill all the biasisms, and make those "weaker class", well... less weak, especially since a lot of the classes deemed "weak" are on the Physical side of the tree anyway (and are mostly just Knight / Squire...).

1.3 is meant to rebalance classes, so just rebalance them a bit more since you're based on it anyway.

[philsov]

Queklain's going to be cake, but that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

At least we can get like 28305 Red Dragons from Araguay Woods and pray those and Red Panthers / Cuars can carry us through?

you can get blue dragons, red panther, and cuars .  Reds won't get face time until chapter 4.

If you're condoning that, don't even bother touching the Poaches

Yes, but a) I can't disable spillover JP and b) even if I could, I don't think I would.  So I can't/won't do anything to that regard.  However, I can curb early poaching with no negative side effects, so I will do that.   Honestly I wish I could set enemies to have a set minimum level but can go higher if the party level is higher.  But I can't do that either.  

Just kill all the biasisms, and make those "weaker class", well... less weak, especially since a lot of the classes deemed "weak" are on the Physical side of the tree anyway (and are mostly just Knight / Squire...).

1.3 is meant to rebalance classes, so just rebalance them a bit more since you're based on it anyway.

Baaaaack up.  I was just talking about poaching and jp spill over.  You're talking about class balance.  These two things are completely different.  Start over, from the top, before even more of what I said gets taken out of context.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Queklain's going to be cake, but that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Queklain seems very much trial and error.

Good setup, and the bitch seems like he'll go down easy.  A bunch of dudes spamming Spark while I sport a Flame Shield and Mind Ruin / Power Ruin / Auto Potion seems tempting initially.

you can get blue dragons, red panther, and cuars .  Reds won't get face time until chapter 4.

Eww, Blue Dragons.   They're... blue...

Red Panthers / Cuars with Monster Skill are too good, lol.  At least they are until Monster Skill becomes a realistic liability, then you're in for some shit.

Yes, but a) I can't disable spillover JP and b) even if I could, I don't think I would.  So I can't/won't do anything to that regard.  However, I can curb early poaching with no negative side effects, so I will do that.   Honestly I wish I could set enemies to have a set minimum level but can go higher if the party level is higher.  But I can't do that either.

I'm just saying you're curbing the one thing that probably does the LEAST to make Chapter 3 easy and killing an entire method of playing the game in the process.

I agree with keeping Spillover JP, as that's not even what I used to grind and I got ridiculous as hell abilities while staying right in line with what level I should be.  I'm just saying that the whole Chapter can be made ridiculously easy for a grinder regardless of what you do.

Someone needs to find a way to do that last bit.

Baaaaack up.  I was just talking about poaching and jp spill over.  You're talking about class balance.  These two things are completely different.  Start over, from the top, before even more of what I said gets taken out of context.

You said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Therefore, I'm saying kill your bias by adding flat growths and make the crappy classes less crappy in order to remove your bias.

Nothing's gone out of context here.

[philsov]

We just determined that to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Where?

But... he still can. Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down. Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops. They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased? Certainly. Silly? Nah, there's a method to the madness.

Over thar.

[philsov]

*headdesk*

going back...

You said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that [allowing spillover jp in random battles to bypass the exp system AND having a seperate poaching party to gain the exp from poaching but not affect your main crew, while disallowing early-game poaching of late game gear] to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where the hell does class growth enter the picture?

edit:  I mean, if you want to talk about it, by all means talk about it.  But don't do misplaced segways from irrelevant and independant concepts.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

*headdesk*

going back...

You said you don't want flat growths because it gives incentive to use crappy classes.

We just determined that [allowing spillover jp in random battles to bypass the exp system while making early-game poaching of late game gear] to be a bias towards one form of grinding over another.

Where the hell does class growth enter the picture?

You edit your quotes meticulously when you reply to something.

Your left in "A player can be rewarded for X class, but..." in the part I showed you, which was the lead in for my bias accusation, so one can't help but think you're implying your last line covers that as well.

See here:

A player can be rewarded for using X class... but can't be rewarded for investing more of their life (be raising and using 2-3 parties, hardcore grinding, etc)? That's biased and silly.

But... he still can.  Using multiple parties and disposable spillover generics will make the game easier as it keeps levels down.  Rare poaching goods are still going to be 1-2 teirs ahead of what is buyable in shops.  They are rewarded for investing more, but there's a limit to it.

Biased?  Certainly.  Silly?  Nah, there's a method to the madness.

You edit everything you don't talk about out rather consistently, so one cannot help but think you were covering that as well in your reply with the "Biased? Certainly" bit.  That would honestly be the most place the "Biased? Certainly" bit would fit as an adequate reply, as the rest of your post talks about (mildly) reducing how one can devote time to grinding by further reducing the ways one can break the game by doing it, though I suppose one could see it as a bias.

edit:  I mean, if you want to talk about it, by all means talk about it.  But don't do misplaced segways from irrelevant and independant concepts.

STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS.

NOW I NEED TO REPLY TO THIS TOO AND BUT I'VE BECOME LAZY.  FGS.

[philsov]

The using X class quote wasn't in my quote because I wasn't replying to it.  

It's a poor analogy and has no place in a discussion about poaching.

edit:  wait, yeah, I did leave it in the quote.  Next time I'll make sure to delete it.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

The using X class quote wasn't in my quote because I wasn't replying to it.  

It's a poor analogy and has no place in a discussion about poaching.

edit:  wait, yeah, I did leave it in the quote.  Next time I'll make sure to delete it.

Gotta love them thar technicalities, eh!  ;D

I care more about the fact the changes pretty much make monster-based playthroughs way more difficult than they already are than the fact I can't Poach until Chapter 4, because as I said, Poaching honestly isn't the best way to make Chapter 3 a joke, in my opinion.

Heavy JP grinding and store-bought stuff does that more than plenty.  

Essentially martyring an entire non-broken, non-problematic way to play the game to stop a way of haxing a single chapter that isn't even the best way to do it seems like a very inefficient trade-off, imo.

[philsov]

it's extending into chapter 4; the really juicy monsters won't even be immediately available -- I can make spawns at Finath/Poeskas no problem .  Heaven forbid I keep a steady gear scale instead of introducing a massive plateau and then having it even out.  

and MR4M, martyred?  Is using t2 monsters instead of t3 that killer?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

and MR4M, martyred?  Is using t2 monsters instead of t3 that killer?

Not really that, even if Blue Dragons are blue and thus blasphemous.

Mostly the fact you're stuck hunting and fighting entire battles over and over again if you care about the quality / quantity of each monster you have, instead of grabbing one and playing Soldier Office to get them.  And as it is, people like bitching about getting good characters out of the REAL Soldier Office.

Beyond that, to upgrade tiers (the closest thing Beastmaster playthrough gets to Job Change), one must repeat this work again and again.

And sometimes yes, the Tier of monster being used can really make or break something.  It's not like you can grind for abilities as easily, after all.

Like I said, the Poaches being moved is fine, even if it really doesn't do as much as you want to think it will since it at least makes sense.  But it doesn't seem to be worth the trade off, because it well, doesn't do as much as you think it does.