Assassinations vs. Kill Em Alls

[philsov]

Currently this is the list of assassination (defeat/critical one unit to win) fights.  Bolded are ones that I thought should be changed to kill em all for either storyline purposes (ie, everyone there should hate your guts), or to provide a different battle than the zerg-and-snipe that many are used to.  Italics are the ones I'm on the fence about, and the neithers are the ones I think ought to stay as-is

Miluda I
Miluda II
Weigraf I
Algus
Queklain
Zalmo I
Izlude
Weigraf II
Velius
Riovanes Rooftop
Meliadoul
Zalmo II
Balk I
Outside Limberry
Elmdor II
Zalera
Dycegarg
Andramelk
Shrine Knights
Zombag
Rofel
Kletain
Balk II
Hashy
Altima

Which... on review: most of em become kill em all save the Zodiacs and Zalmo I because he's a twit.

Also for my own edification:

Code Select Expand

Wait(00010)
DarkScreen(x00,x01,012,064,x00,004)
WaitForInstruction(x36,x00)
Wait(00020)
DisplayConditions(x08,060)
WaitForInstruction(x38,x00)
WaitForInstruction(x04,x00)
DisplayConditions(x00,060)
WaitForInstruction(x38,x00)
RemoveDarkScreen()
WaitForInstruction(x36,x00)
Event instructions which should bring up the "defeat all enemies" command, and then remove the colorunit aspect.

[Dokurider]

Miluda I = Assassination

Miluda II = Kill 'em All

Wiegraf I = Kill 'em All (I don't even understand why he ran from that fight, but whatever)

Algus = Kill 'em All

Izlude = Kill 'em All since it's easier that way anyways

Wiegraf II = ????

Melidoul = ????

Balk 1 = Assassination

Outside Limberry = Assassination

Zombag = Kill 'em All

Rofel, Kletain = Kill 'em All

Balk II = ????

[The Damned]

Lol. I looked at this list twice going "what italics" before realizing that you just meant that for once you become uncertain about. Ugh, what goddamn addle-head insomniac I am.

Despite that (and not having played the game in almost a year), I'll give my opinions on these going off of memory (which means we're screwed):

• Miluda I = Assassination. (Before you arrive, weren't her subordinates talking about surrendering? Or at least meeting up with her brother before Miluda said Wiegraf was too naive? It seems like they would want to surrender when she went down, especially since only Algus wanted to kill her. Besides, it'd get kind of obnoxious having to re-kill Miluda due to the White Mages inevitably having Raise.)


• Miluda II = Kill 'Em All. (I'd imagine here that, despite Algus not being there, they'd want to avenge Miluda's death here given that she seemed to have some importance to the Death Corps as a whole beyond just being Wiegraf's little sister.)


• Wiegraf I = Assassination (I think it should just be an assassination since Wiegraf is the first "special" class you fight and, as commander, I can't imagine that he wouldn't take his squad with him when he retreated. Besides, "Kill 'Em All" seems kind of weird since Boco shows up later. Zombie Chocobo...?)


• Algus = ???? (Honestly, it could go either way, especially given that none of Algus's squad has any speaking lines and they don't seem to have a problem with Teta being murdered in front of them. I'm indifferent.)


• Queklain = Assassination. (Zodiac. Next.)


• Zalmo I = Assassination. (Given that he runs off AND is an asshole to fight, it only seems fair.)


• Izlude = Kill 'Em All. (Yeah, Izlude has the stone and only dies later, but he does run off and I could see his squad covering his escape.)


• Weigraf II = ???? (I'm not indifferent here. I'm just not sure. From the cutscene that follows after this, we know that Wiegraf gets his ass-handed to him, but does that mean you have to kill all of his squad to do so? Seems like it's your call since I really can't decide.)


• Velius = Kill 'Em All (It just seems odd that demons he summons would have no ontological inertia given that the stone doesn't shatter or anything after Velius's death and, honestly, that's what I feel like has the real power over them since it's not like Velius really "dies" or anything arguably. Up to you, though.)


• Riovanes Rooftop = Assassination (Yeah, it's stacked against you enough without making you have to kill three people who can all OHKO you.)


• Meliadoul = Assassination? (I honestly can't remember the reason behind this fight outside of her thinking you killed Izlude. I know she says more than that, though. Anyway, it just seems kind of odd that she'd join you after you brutally murder the rest of her squad remembers and given that she does retreat, well....)


• Zalmo II = Kill 'Em All (This isn't already Kill 'Em All? I thought Delita specifically said that he was going to get rid everyone there since his meeting with Ramza wasn't something that should be known about.)


• Balk I = Kill 'Em All (Yep. No further comment.)


• Outside Limberry = Kill 'Em All (First I was against it and just wanted to remain an assassination, but given that Celia & Lede will probably still disappear together and that this is the only place that Apandas appear in the main game, it seems rather fitting. It would make more sense given how they prepare for you so quickly, what with the demons to stall you further now.)


• Elmdor II = Kill 'Em All (Again, Celia & Lede very obviously have their own ontological inertia, so I always found it weird that you win this match so easily just by crippling Elmdor, especially since they don't even get to "die" since you immediately fight Zalera.)


• Zalera = Assassination? (I'd make the same ontological argument here as for Velius and Elmdor II, but the difference he is that Zalera just reanimates corpses instead of summoning living beings. I mean, I guess you could have this be a Kill 'Em All fight, but this time around, it'd be understandable if his allies just stopped when he dropped.)


• Dycedarg = Assassination (While the knights SHOULD want to kill you given that you just killed your own older brother [or, rather, Dycedarg's Elder Brother], I always pictured Dycedarg transforming into Adramelk and then immediately doing HORRIBLE things to them like he did to Zalbag. I intend to try to show that in my patch if I ever get around to it at this point, but I'm digressing....)


• Adramelk = Assassination (Given that he doesn't come with allies, this is kind of a given.)


• Shrine Knights = ???? (I find it weird that you want this to be an Assassination still given that your primary reason for changing things to "Kill 'Em All" is because all people on the enemy side want to kill you. Well, don't Rofel, Kletian and Vormav all want Ramza extra-dead by this point? Just seems a bit strange that you would exempt this when arguably it follows your rule the most, even if I get why....)


• Zombag = Kill 'Em All  (Again, this isn't a Kill 'Em All one already? Hunh.)


• Rofel = Kill 'Em All (Sure, why not.)


• Kletian = Kill 'Em All (Same.)


• Balk II = ???? (I could see this being a Kill 'Em All if you perhaps changed his allies up a bit. It just seems weird killing Chemists at this point in the game and having Engineers suddenly come out of no where is equally jarring even if it is end-game IMO.)


• Hashmalum = Assassination (Again, no allies for you to kill, so kind of defaults.)


• Altima/Ultima = Kill 'Em All? (Not sure how you could make it so that the Ultima Demons all had to be killed before Ultima transformed, but given that they are named for her, I'd think they'd be more than willing to die for her.)

Speaking of Ultima, while typing this, it occurred to me to wonder how you were going to enforce "kill 'em all" in battles where killing the previous focus of you attention like, say Rofel II, causes a battle-ending trigger sequence (in this instance, forcibly warping you to Murond, Death City). I'm quite curious....

(I don't even understand why he ran from that fight, but whatever)

Really? Even ignoring his quote that his death would mean the end of the Death Corps, it was tactically sound for him to retreat, especially since he had thought that guy that had kidnapped Delita's sister had left her at the windmill and that's all that Ramza and co. seemed to care about. It's also possible that he realized that his (suppressed) rage over Miluda's death was blinding him and making him fight sloppily, especially since earlier on when you rescue Marquis Elmdor, it's heavily implied that fighting Wiegraf 3-on-1 was basically suicide (or at least really bad).

(ARCHIVAL EDIT as of 03/07/2012 of 10:05 P.M.: Even ASM'd if Archived now presently, this still had too many typos for my liking now that I had noticed them. Given that it's rather likely I'm going to use many, if not most, of these reasons for changes to Embargo, it's not entirely altruism that causes me to change things up now either.)

[philsov]

Before you arrive, weren't her subordinates talking about surrendering?

Ah, true.  And Miluda runs away anyways.  She can stay assassin

Zombie Chocobo...?)

Boco is actually immortal flagged in that fight (even in vanilla) to prevent this exact thing from happening XD

Waaaaaaaark....

Weigraf II = ???? (I'm not indifferent here. I'm just not sure. From the cutscene that follows after this, we know that Wiegraf gets his ass-handed to him, but does that mean you have to kill all of his squad to do so? Seems like it's your call since I really can't decide.)

This one I think is best as a kill em all, simply because he's so easy to zerg/snipe down that all of his adds simply can be ignored... usually.

Riovanes Rooftop - Probably staying assassin, because A) they do run away, and B) you get to do the exact same fight without stupid @#$@#$@@# rafa later on, so may as well.  -Maybe- I'll remove the assassin caveat and make the player, in fact, chase after Elmdor, but idk.

Shrine Knights = ???? (I find it weird that you want this to be an Assassination still given that your primary reason for changing things to "Kill 'Em All" is because all people on the enemy side want to kill you. Well, don't Rofel, Kletian and Vormav all want Ramza extra-dead by this point? Just seems a bit strange that you would exempt this when arguably it follows your rule the most, even if I get why....)

It's more a balance thing.  I think I'd have to nerf them somewhat to pull off a massacre, which then makes them weaker when you kill kill them one by one at the home stretch.

how you were going to enforce "kill 'em all" in battles where killing the previous focus of you attention like, say Rofel II, causes a battle-ending trigger sequence (in this instance, forcibly warping you to Murond, Death City). I'm quite curious.

Fiddling with events and the attack.out editor.  As far as I know, they're ultimately seperate -- much like how Gaffy can ninja vanish at Zirekile and/or Golgorand but the battle continues on.  The Rofel II trigger sequence specifically (I think?) occurs after the battle is over.  So... if the battle isn't over until I kill everyone, then no harm no foul.  He's still going to be immortal flagged so it's not like he can crystallize and then suddenly pop back in.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Considering you probably intend to do almost no Event Editing beyond what's needed to make these work...

Miluda I - Murder everything, the others don't have anywhere to run to and are bitter Death Corps soldiers that aren't likely to just quit.

Miluda II - Above.

Weigraf I - Above.

Algus - Assassination.  The enemies are all Hokuten and Ramza's a Beoulve, they probably won't keep fighting once their obviously grudge-bearing commander goes down and risk huge rage from Zalbag or Dycedarg.

Queklain - Assassination.

Zalmo I - Assassination, considering they're Church guys and Zalmo's at least vaguely important they'd likely put more value on keeping him alive than killing a single heretic.

Izlude - Murder everything.

Weigraf II - Murder everything.

Wiegraf III / Velius - Assassination.

Riovanes Rooftop - Assassination.

Meliadoul - Murder everything.  She's got a huge vendetta and the soldiers are under the Shrine Knights, so they have far more reason to go all out to kill Ramza than Zalmo and co do.

Zalmo II - Murder everything, Ramza's rather huge now so the importance of killing him above all else should be clear to all of them and outweigh Zalmo's safety.

Balk I - Murder everything, see: Meliadoul, except they have a far more concrete and immediate reason to go balls to the wall to stop Ramza.

Outside Limberry - Murder everything, though without events to edit this and a few others look kinda sloppy this way.

Elmdor II - Assassination.

Zalera - Assassination.

Dycegarg/Adramelk - I actually kind of like murder everything for Dycedarg and assassinate for Adramelk, but that makes no sense as the soldiers are all Hokuten and the enemies include two Beoulve and they have no context as to what the fuck is going on to keep fighting once Dycedarg stops.

Shrine Knights - Assassination.

Zombag - Murder everything, the Demons are tied to Vormav and not Zombag.

Rofel - Murder everything.  See: Balk I but even more imperative.

Kletain - Murder everything.  Up.

Balk II - Murder everything.  Up.

Hashy - Assassination.

Altima I / Altima 2 - Assassination.

My only problem with some of these though is that if you just flip the win condition and leave a bunch of them look kinda sloppy, so doing these works far better when you edit the event triggers a bit more elaborately, though there aren't many spare events to do this with.

Speaking of Ultima, while typing this, it occurred to me to wonder how you were going to enforce "kill 'em all" in battles where killing the previous focus of you attention like, say Rofel II, causes a battle-ending trigger sequence (in this instance, forcibly warping you to Murond, Death City). I'm quite curious....

Grab Zodiac's Spreadsheet for ATTACK.OUT.

Find, say, Rofel II.

Find the final line of code, probably looks like 0100800000000400ID000600ID00001900##00 or longer because Square is fucking deplorable and can't simply code 0600ID00001900##00, and change it to 16001900##00.  ID is Unit ID in the ENTD, ## is the event number being called in ATTACK.OUT.

Go into the events, find the bits that highlights and call the "Defeat Rofel!" line at the end of the first event of that battle, and replace it with what Philsov has in the OP.

Event flows perfectly, and the bit where Rofel blows a hole into the world and sends everyone to hell is called when everyone is dead instead of when only Rofel dies because the calling line was changed to 16001900##00, where 1600 = Defeat All Enemies, instead of 0600ID00001900##00, where 0600ID000000 = Unit ID Dead.

You probably didn't want the technical explanation but you just got it.

[philsov]

My only problem with some of these though is that if you just flip the win condition and leave a bunch of them look kinda sloppy, so doing these works far better when you edit the event triggers a bit more elaborately, though there aren't many spare events to do this with.

Only thing that would warrant a change is a difference in the death speech, half the time.  Like you said there's not a lot of spare events so I can't break those up half the time.

The trickier part would like, Miluda 1, where Ramza says "Lay down your swords, surrender and we'll spare your lives" -- if he says that only when Miluda dies, and all other generics don't magically fade away... uh... rejection by silence as their weapons glean?  That'll certainly change.  In general, mind -- Miluda I will likely stay assassin.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Only thing that would warrant a change is a difference in the death speech, half the time.  Like you said there's not a lot of spare events so I can't break those up half the time.

No, I mean parts where Wiegraf 1 Teleports away.  You don't need to actually edit what they say, but it's sloppy to have him teleport out after the whole fight's over instead of just when the player beats him and have the fight continue without the enemy leader.  There are currently 7 events that are both empty and usable (x193 - x199, x19A is the Setup Event for the first tutorial) if you crop your ATTACK.OUT code and mess with the editor some, and there are a couple that you can merge and have no one notice.  (See: Rafa has two separate events depending on whether Malak's alive or not at Yardow when she dies, Reis the same at Colliery for Beowulf, etc. despite the fact the events themselves have little or nothing different between them.)

The trickier part would like, Miluda 1, where Ramza says "Lay down your swords, surrender and we'll spare your lives" -- if he says that only when Miluda dies, and all other generics don't magically fade away... uh... rejection by silence as their weapons glean?  That'll certainly change.  In general, mind -- Miluda I will likely stay assassin.

...That's one of the events that you DON'T need to touch, dear philsov.

0100800000000600850000001900XX00 becomes 16001900XX00 on the spreadsheet, Ramza will now say "Lay down your swords, surrender and we'll spare you." when all enemies are defeated instead of just Miluda, event will resolve properly, cutscene, etc. none the wiser.

This is one you should already know honestly considering it was in the demo. :/

[philsov]

I see you've kept sharp in your hiatus

This is one you should already know honestly considering it was in the demo. :/

Yes, but that was months ago >_>

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I see you've kept sharp in your hiatus

Of course, but to be fair the hiatus ended a while back, I've just mostly been lurking on IRC instead of posting on things unless it was really necessary.

Yes, but that was months ago >_>

Excuses, excuses.

[Gotwald]

Now that I have gotten to the end of FFT, I can comment.

Miluda I - Assassination
Miluda II - Kill em all
Weigraf I - Assassination
Algus - Assassination
Queklain - Assassination
Zalmo I - Kill em all
Izlude - Kill em all
Weigraf II - Kill em all
Velius - Assassination
Riovanes Rooftop - Assassination
Meliadoul - Kill em all
Zalmo II - Kill em all
Balk I - Kill em all
Outside Limberry - Assassination
Elmdor II - Assassination
Zalera - Assassination
Dycegarg - Assassination
Andramelk- Assassination
Shrine Knights - Assassination
Zombag - Kill em all
Rofel - Assassination
Kletain - Kill em all
Balk II - Kill em all
Hashy - Assassination
Altima - Assassination