FFT: ASM'D main info/discussion

[iopyud]

That's... good to know.

[philsov]

Most of the mechanical changes are input -- I'm staving off on those random battles to replace poaching until anything that needs to be hammered out is so.  ENTD still needs some tweaking - I've shifted around the movement abilities, but still need to toggle around the reaction abilities -- now that hamedo, abandon, and weapon are all gone it's kinda tricky.  And then there's the text edits.  Ugh.

So in the meantime I've just be dicking around with hex editing, and am happy to announce free reign over all the equip X functions:

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207

I've got a handful of ideas but it's late.  Welcoming suggestions!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Sexy.

Imo, Equip Katana and Equip Axe are the two we can rework entirely because they (especially Equip Katana) see and probably would see no use.

If I had my way we could use Equip Shield as well, but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.  Bitches.

Anywho.

You said Knight Swords are getting tacked onto Equip Sword and Long Bows onto Equip Crossbow (renamed Equip Bow, I'm assuming), so we don't need to worry about those.

Equip Dagger is probably not that useful.  Same with Equip Ninja Sword.  Equip Flail would at least be better than Equip Axe, but I think everything that cares enough to use Flails already can.

Equip Harp and Equip Book wouldn't be useful.  Equip Rod/Staff as a single ability might be, and I think Equip Stick definitely could be useful.  Equip Cloth seems rather useless.

Ribbons, Perfumes, Bags are cross-gender now, so those abilities would be useless.  Equip Clothes / Robes / Hat would definitely be (a) useful ability(ies).  

I think that covers it for Equips that aren't already associated with an Equip (X), I think.

So...

Sticks
Rods/Staves
some combination of Clothes / Robes / Hats

Unless I'm missing something, those are the only things that'd be useful that aren't already in the vanilla abilities.

I definitely vote for Equip Stick, maybe allow Robes to be a part of it.

The other open ability, IDK.  Though there's not that much else to choose from that I can see.

[iopyud]

Re: Equip X

I don't have anything too detailed to say but I personally believe that anything more than what we have will damage the concept of "specialization".

Sure, you can go with Concentrate/Attack Up Archer for example but they wouldn't be so special. Besides I'd probably use a Bow Thief over it and I already don't use Knights. I find them too slow, I'd take a Lancer anytime, I like Knightsword WEV but if I can give them to anyone then I wouldn't even touch Knights.

Of course, that's all based on my personal play style.

[Sephirot24]

Sticks
Rods/Staves
some combination of Clothes / Robes / Hats

Exactly. Unless you want to use those ability spaces to do something totally different (not equp X).

[philsov]

My current plans:

Equip Armor  - No change
Equip Shield - No change
Equip Sword - Good point with Knight swords being exclusive.  Thus, reworked!  Becoming rod/robe/staff; tempted to give this to sage but I think that's too far down the job tree.  Maybe... chemist?
Equip Katana - Reworked!  Equip hats + clothes; probably available to Thief class.
Equip Crossbow - Reworked!  Now equip XBow + Longbow.  
Equip Spear - Reworked!  Becoming equip spear + stick (polearm, if you will), probably accessible to both Oracle and Lancer.
Equip Axe - Reworked! Becoming equip Axe + Flail.  Remember, Axes/Flails are going to a lot better.  
Equip Gun - Reworked!  Now Gun + Books... just because we can.

[Sephirot24]

Sounds good enough.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

My current plans:

Equip Armor  - No change
Equip Shield - No change
Equip Sword - Good point with Knight swords being exclusive.  Thus, reworked!  Becoming rod/robe/staff; tempted to give this to sage but I think that's too far down the job tree.  Maybe... chemist?
Equip Katana - Reworked!  Equip hats + clothes; probably available to Thief class.
Equip Crossbow - Reworked!  Now equip XBow + Longbow.  
Equip Spear - Reworked!  Becoming equip spear + stick (polearm, if you will), probably accessible to both Oracle and Lancer.
Equip Axe - Reworked! Becoming equip Axe + Flail.  Remember, Axes/Flails are going to a lot better.  
Equip Gun - Reworked!  Now Gun + Books... just because we can.

I like Equip Polearm.

Equip Axe + Flail as one ability is approved as well.

Same with Equip Crossbow.

Equip Katana becoming Equip Light Armor sounds cool.

Only thing I don't like is losing Equip Sword.  Equip Sword is actually pretty damn useful, especially for Special units.  I'd rather lose Equip Shield since everything already has Weapon Guard innate.

Hm.

Equip Sword could be turned into Equip Melee (name pending), and allow Axes, Flails, and Swords, leaving Knight Swords for Knights only as they are now, then let Equip Axe become Equip... Mageset?  Idk on a name for something like that, but I like Rod / Staff / Robe under one ability set.

Equip Gun including Books doesn't seem to be a problem balance wise, but I have no clue what we'd rename it.

If we wanna get really technical, isn't Martial Arts technically an "Equip X" ability as well with the value set to bare hands?  Not saying we should change it... but we could, if we wanted to.

Hm.  So how about:

Equip Heavy Armor (Same)

Equip Shield (Same)

Equip Melee (Axes, Swords, Flails, available on Squire?)

Equip Mageset (Robes, Rod, Staff, available on Summoner since its the only job that can equip all 3 and doesn't have ridiculous requirements)

Equip Polearm (Spears and Sticks, available on Oracle and Lancer... maybe allow Lancers and Oracles to both equip Spears and Sticks naturally now because of this ability for the sake of consistency?)

Equip Bow (Long Bow and Crossbow, same place)

Equip Light Armor (Hats and Clothes, available on Thief)

Equip Gun(?) (Gun + ...Books for the lulz, apparently, on Mediator)

?

[Zaen]

I like the last suggestions. Axe + Sword + Flail definitely works out a lot better than taking out Sword. Also, I was gonna suggest Summoner over Chemist for the same reasons.

Other than what's been mentioned, I can't think of anything better.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Thought.

Add Books to Equip Mageset.

It'd be more useful than having Books as part of Equip Gun, since iirc Books are something like PA*MA/2 and Equip Mageset would actually give the Book-Equipper access to Wizard Robe to buff said Book should they actually want to use it.

It would also spread the love of "Equip X ranged weapon" abilities around a bit better.

[iopyud]

To clarify, I'm referring to Knightswords, not regular Swords.

Equip Sword should not include Knightswords because they should be a Knight's specialty otherwise people will stop using Knights unless they get a buff (+1sp or like... 1.5x more HPM or something...).

We know we prefer Lancers and armored units over them (knights).

[philsov]

great ideas.

First off, I overextended slightly.  A robe equip option has very little that can pair up with it, in fact the only thing that seems remotely fitting is Sticks.

So...

Equip Armor (heavy armor + helmets) -- Knight
Equip Mageset (sticks + robes, I guess?) -- Oracle
Equip Melee (swords + axes + flails) -- Squire
Equip Clothes (light armor + hats) -- Thief
Equip Bow (xbow + longbow) -- Archer
Equip Gun (pewpew) -- Mediator
Equip Spear -- Lancer
Equip Shield -- Knight

??

I'd rather lose Equip Shield since everything already has Weapon Guard innate.

That is a thought, but it's just as strong as Def Up or MDU; except instead of 66% blows 100% of the time it's 100% blows 66% of the time.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I actually like the idea of Equip Spear allowing both Spears and Sticks as one Equip option, so I say stick with that honestly.  Anything that would practically use Equip Stick probably won't need the (Wizard) Robe anyway, so I'd rather pair Equip Robe with something else myself.

Equip Mageset can still be Robe, Staff, Book with ease.  Losing Rods (mostly losing Elemental Rods + Wizard Rod) is a blow, but I think access to Robes and Sticks as one Equip X option would still be good, and again it'd allow the user to go Robe + Book, since I foresee the 3 range of Books being much more valuable here, just like most other ranged abilities and weapons.  Though, with the 1.3 ridiculous Dragon Rod, maybe not being able to Equip Rod with this ability is for the best...

Rest looks good.  I actually wish we could pair something with Shields for Equip Shield, but I have no idea what.  Maybe I just undervalue evasion that isn't ridiculous Abandonhax because I hate relying on the RNG, but it's just something I see not worth the JP over Equip Armor or something.

[philsov]

Equip Mageset can still be Robe, Staff, Book with ease

No, it can't.  Robes are table 4D, meaning if I want robes I can only pull stuff from 4C and 4D.

http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207

[Sephirot24]

You can't make Mageset: Robes, staffs and rods, and Equip polearm: Sticks and Spears then?

[philsov]

sticks and spears I can do.  4B+4C is nothing.  But 4B + 4D?  Not so much.  Sequential pairs only at this point.

But robes by themselves seem rather feeble, and sticks can pair up with robes.

edit: I can also do a hat + robe combo which can bring sticks + spears back into being as well -- still kills the option for rods/staves unless we nuke something else though.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

sticks and spears I can do.  4B+4C is nothing.  But 4B + 4D?  Not so much.  Sequential pairs only at this point.

But robes by themselves seem rather feeble, and sticks can pair up with robes.

edit: I can also do a hat + robe combo which can bring sticks + spears back into being as well -- still kills the option for rods/staves unless we nuke something else though.

Hm, Stick + Spear sounds like a good set still.  I really think we should stick with that.

I misread the part about sequential only.  Somehow.  I was thinking any two tables.

I don't think Robes are worth it without some weapons to go with them - unlike Clothes and such, most classes that can actually make good use of Robes can already equip them, with the only exception I can think of being Chemist for late game Black Robe + Elemental Gun... at which point the player can just be a Mediator with Throw Item anyway.

Equip Robe might be worth it for 1.3's Light Robe on some units, but it still feels more niche than a lot of other things.  Losing access to Wizard Robe kinda hurts it, but I think Equip Mageset being Staff / Rod / Book (if I'm reading this right, thoroughly possible) would be more worthwhile than being able to go Robe / Stick, because as said previously anything that can make good use of Sticks already has Robe access.  Same thing with Robe + Hat, the only things that can go Hat and would actually use a Robe over Clothes are Specials and Samurai.  And they mostly already can Equip Robe innate, so they can just slap on Equip Clothes to get the exact same Effect.

[Skip Sandwich]

what about bundling robes in with bags, perfume and ribbons? it's the only other place they really fit, and then you get rod/staff/book for equip mageset and spear/stick for equip polearm

[RavenOfRazgriz]

what about bundling robes in with bags, perfume and ribbons? it's the only other place they really fit, and then you get rod/staff/book for equip mageset and spear/stick for equip polearm

Bags / Perfumes / Ribbons are all equippable by all jobs and unisex now, iirc.

It'd be redundant.

The good news is this means we can make Cloud into a flamboyant homosexual no matter what class he's in!

[philsov]

but I think Equip Mageset being Staff / Rod / Book

Is a good idea.  We'll go with that and spears + sticks as previously planned .  Goodbye robes~

edit:  But lancers with sticks and oracles with spears, by default?  Nah, a bit unweildy and really messes with the <random> equipment option for enemies.