Assistance with an overly ambitious FFT project...

[Kablizzy]

Hey, all. I'm Blizz. I've got a bit of a project I'm working on. I don't know if any of you have ever seen us, but I used to be Head Administrator at Heroes of Ivalice, a forum-based game using part of the FFT rules set. For the past ten years, it's been 100% forum-based, and made using a very limited template of some similar forum-based games, heavy on RP, and very, very hard to run by hand. Any skirmish would take between 2-4 hours of real time to update, type out, roll calculations, and the like. Not to mention Kingdom mechanics, Propositions, player purchases, wars, and movement.

I just stumbled across this site about a week ago after rejoining the team, and we're re-building the entire system from the ground-up. So, I need some help, and I hope you guys can provide me with at least some suggestions as to what to do. What I need is fourfold:

1) First, I would want our battle-system to have a GUI mimicking the original FFT. I've seen a lot of projects over the last week that have come from here, and it looks like the things that you can create with the original engine are magnificent. Kudos to everyone who's undertaken a project like this. So, I need to know if there is potentially a way to modify the engine to allow for real-time, editable, player-vs-player combat. What I mean by this is thus: We would need a tool to create the map, the conditions of the skirmish, edit levels, abilities, edit the CT system, overhaul the Job System, and be able to enable each individual combat accessible via independent server to everyone involved, including spectators, if they so desire it. Each player would control their character, and act in-turn, playing out the skirmish in multi-player. Rewards built-in would be a bonus. This would also likely require custom sprites if available. It would also be nice to have a lobby system and dedicated server acting as a hub for players to go each day to chat and enjoy, and perhaps duel one another. Ideally, a replay / record system so that we could keep a running record of these combats (And perhaps showcase some of our classes / skills to increase traffic and playerbase) would also be neat.

Now, I recognize that this is an unbelievably ambitious project, but what I want to know is this; Is it technically possible? I understand the potential speed bumps in the way of this, but if we can overcome those, I think a visual representation of these things (instead of text as we're doing now) would be preferable.

And if not technically possible for a multiplayer version, would it be possible in single-player as a tool for us to run skirmishes through this system, without the networking capabilities? I'm certain one would likely have to overhaul the entire engine, allow for editable maps, and create a local database of classes, skills, visual representations, and the like, but if this is possible, this could also work. We could then record the skirmishes as they're being run independent of the players involved, and then post the video results on the forum in place of the text results that we otherwise would.

2) Whether for the above or not, I would love to be able to have a visual representation of some of the game's more important sequences - cutscenes using the game engine, where we can edit the map, the characters, names, and dialogue, record them, and upload them to move the storyline along. Thusfar, all of this has been done entirely through roleplay, and it gets brutal, and dry. If not this, perhaps some of you folks are talented in the way of Cinematics, or could otherwise work with us to create opening sequences / engine-run cutscenes

3) If not any of the above, a map editor using the FFT engine that we could use to represent some of the places people will fight - Without giving too much away, we're also looking to add a bit of interesting headcanon to the Ivalice Alliance (Which we've already done a ton of, but we'll be doing quite a bit more). In this fashion, we can stop using third-party map editors to visually represent our places.

4) And if nothing else, I would love to have passionate folks provide some advice and input on development, if any of you so desire. I'm a huge fan of FFT (And I'm sure you guys are also), and I want to do justice to the original while fixing some of the awful mechanics, expanding upon the universe (While staying true to Final Fantasy, of course), and perhaps someday, turn this into something big. What we started nearly a decade ago has grown to be amazing, but I'm always looking for more fine folks to help. Some of our best ideas have started with a simple, single-sentence suggestion.

Beyond this, I'd love to hear from you all on possibilities here. I'll be floating around here to answer questions and respond if you guys need. Not gonna advertise the site, because that's not what I'm here for, I'm mostly here to get some ideas on whether this is possible or not. Thank you all, and keep up the amazing work!

[Shrikesnest]

Hi, welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics!  I'm pretty new around here myself.  I've been working on my first patch for around six months here and there, although I've been lurking for quite a bit longer.  Nonetheless, my knowledge of the system is more in the realm of what's easily and commonly possible, not the limits of the system.  That said, I think I can help shed some light on your ambitions.  Allow me to take things point by point.

0) Before I get into anything else, you should check out the following projects:

FFT Arena
Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=37.0
Master Guide: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0

This is a completely retooled and rebalanced version of the game where people can build teams, submit them to a third party moderator and then have the two teams duke it out in an AI battle.  The downsides of this as far as your project is concerned is that the players don't have direct control of the characters (the AI does) and it requires a referee or moderator with decent video capture hardware and software to be available to run the match.  So you wouldn't get the "true" deathmatch experience of having players enter a lobby, choose to duel each other and then control their armies independently at any time.  The upsides are that this game is not only possible, but currently quite functional.  FFHacktics actually runs AI battle tournaments in FFT Arena.

Tethical
Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=57.0

This is more along the lines of what you originally laid out.  Tethical aims to be a multiplayer game very similar to Final Fantasy Tactics with teambuilding and player-versus-player skirmishes.  The downside is that it's nowhere near finished, despite some extremely fine work by the creators over a long period of time.  Also, as far as I know, Tethical isn't even technically a mod of the original game, it just uses many of the game's assets.  I'm really not sure on that last point.

1) Now, getting to your first big question, is your vision technically possible?  The answer is probably not as you envision it, unless you have a lot of experience programming in raw Assembler.  Even then, you're going to run into a lot of trouble with memory limitations on the disc as well as hardware limitations on the original Playstation (even if you're using an emulator, you need to work within the original Playstation's hardware limitations.)  For one thing, there's limited space on the disc for things like, say, extra maps.  Something like a full map editor is a pipe dream at this point, even to our amazing coders; there are only so many extra maps on the disc, and they tend to be very buggy when used.  Any lobby and matchmaking software would certainly have to come from outside the game since there's no support for anything remotely like that in the original game, and integrating such a system into a fifteen year old Playstation game could be very challenging.  If you're willing to run the battles AI style, like FFT Arena does, your dream becomes much closer to our current reality.

2) Cinematics and cutscenes from the original game can be heavily modified.  I haven't done a lot of it myself, but from what I hear it's not particularly difficult work (unless you're trying something completely bonkers) but it is very tedious, long-term coding work.  Check out Journey of the Five (Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=66.0) to see what's possible.  Those guys have an incredible event editing team, and they pulled off some pretty awesome stunts in their cinematics.

3) Again, map editing is all but impossible right now.  As far as I understand it, there are no real tools for it and even full conversion patches that try to tell their own story are stuck repurposing the old maps.  Given the restrictions on the allotted memory for maps, I doubt that this will change any time soon.

LOL WAT?! Sorry, cannot help but laugh at this, as Map Editing and the tools for it have been around for a LOOOOONG TIME -Elric

4) If you want input and help, well, here's a few links.

Works in Progress Thread:  http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=52.0
New Project Ideas Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=42.0
Progressing Patches Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=2.0  (Make SURE you read the requirements post before putting your patch up in here)

Now, a little friendly advice on this one.  First, read this thread:  http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6125.0

I know you're passionate now when it's all fun ideas and potential, but when it gets down to the real work of making a patch you may find your enthusiasm fading after a couple of months.  My current project is nowhere near as ambitious as even your least ambitious idea, and it's taken me months of solitary work, standing on the shoulders of giants, to learn the tools, lay out what I want and start making it a reality.  I'm just now getting to the point where I have an extremely buggy pre-Alpha that I can start bug testing, and all I've done is alter the classes and items and change some storyline battles.  If you're really serious about this, you're going to need to have the time and commitment to plug away for hours, making and fixing mistakes, over a period of years.

Also, this community loves a good challenge, but the best coders here are all dedicated to their own long-term projects.  If you want to form a team to get some work done, you have to prove yourself first.  Nobody wants to pour two hundred hours a month for four months into a project for someone else's vision only to have the whole thing fall apart because the guy running things got bored and decided it wasn't worth his time.  That means, at a minimum, you'll need to learn the tools and prove you're sticking around awhile before anybody even notices you, much less wants to join your team.  (Aside: if you think this sounds harsh, RavenofRodriguez will eat you alive.)

Don't get me wrong.  Feel free to stick around, tinker with the tools, use the resources and tutorials, ask questions on the forums or in IRC and generally make use of the site.  They love that stuff here, and they're extremely helpful.  I just want you to have realistic expectations of what you're getting into before you get into it.  You're going to have to do most of the heavy lifting by yourself, at least at first and probably forever.  If you're passionate enough that that's okay with you, then welcome aboard.  I look forward to seeing how your patch progresses.

[3lric]

Check out Journey of the Five (Thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?board=66.0) to see what's possible.  Those guys have an incredible event editing team, and they pulled off some pretty awesome stunts in their cinematics.

Ahem, I WISH we had a great event editing team, unfortunately, it's actually just me All Jot5 Chapter 1 events were made by me, with
some fixes by Xifanie to make some of them sparkle a bit more.

I'm quite skilled in cutscene work, so let me know if I can help you out in that area.

We also DO have a map editor called Ganesha, it's not the easiest thing to use by any means, but it does work.
CoP have many custom maps, as well as the Pokemon Tactics mod that Pride and I are working on. In addition to several slightly edited maps in Journey of the Five

This was a map edit i did for the Vanilla Bar, I used it in The Adventures of Kagebunji and Twinees Episode 3. It's unfinished in this picture
but proof of concept none the less.

spoiler: Pub Edit

[Kablizzy]

Considering that I've been doing this on and off for nine-and-a-half years already, I think we're good on the motivation front. Also considering that for the vast majority of that time, the game has actually been running (And quite well for the most part), this is not a worry. I'm not much of a coder, so learning an entirely new system for this may be a bit rough, but eh. What else am I gonna do with my life?

So, FF Arena may just work, can the AI be edited at all? Currently, when we run battles by hand, players write a series of tactics (Basically, complex if-then statements) for each turn {For instance, If Enemy Squire moves within Melee range, use  I think it might add kind of a neat flare to our game that you go into battle, and you prepare as best you can, and then you let chance and fate take it from there. I like this a lot, actually.

As for the rest - That's actually exponentially better news than I had ever imagined. I would love to work with some of you guys over the coming weeks / months as the project re-tools and progresses, and if it turns out that we can run the entirety of our combat system through something like this, then I'd be a very, very happy camper (Like I said, this would cut out a full 80% of our workload, especially if we can backload the classes and abilities as we wish).

Elric: That's stupendous news, actually. I wouldn't imagine the map editors would be anything stupendously special, but this is better than what we have currently, by far. I'm gonna be doing some research on the things you suggested over the coming days (I'm getting married this month, so life is a bit hectic at the moment), and then I'll go from there. Thank you guys so much for your support!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You can't give the units in FFT: Arena unique AI for technical reasons, as the units are spawned through the ENTD and all use the "Enemy" AI, which is smarter than the AutoBattle AI.  When building teams for FFT: Arena, the old 1.3 AI Tournaments, etc., you "configure" your AI by choosing which abilities to know beforehand - your AI units can't do things they don't know how to do.

But yes, you can basically do everything you want here except make the game a legitimate two-player game.  The closest you can do in that regard is to generate an ENTD with the units you want, have one player "host" the game, and have the second player control their team via Teamviewer or something, but most people aren't comfortable doing that so letting the AI handle it is much easier.

Just remember that whatever you end up feeling is good for your project will probably be work.  With newer, bigger projects like Journey of the Five, etc., I know a lot of people take "vanilla" mods like 1.3 for granted, but even simpler mods like that require a lot of work, dedication, and motivation to get the things you want done.  The ability to come through and finish what you're working on is the most important skill of all, which means you should take things one step at a time - which parts of the things you listed here would be most important to Heroes of Ivalice, and which parts "would be nice" but aren't really 100% important?  You want to get those first bits done first, then work on the details later. 

Since you're re-working the system from the ground up, I imagine the two things you're going to need the most are gameplay and cutscenes.  (As in, the ability to actually make fun, balanced gameplay and the ability to make interesting cutscenes.)  These are what you and anyone looking to work with you on this should be looking into first to make sure you can do them well.  Maps can be made, sprites can be made, basically anything can be made, but if you can't make things work out on a basic level there's no point in actually making any of those things.  So I highly recommend getting acquainted with Event Editing along with the basic gameplay editing tools such as FFTacText, FFTPatcher, etc., learn the basic skills you'll need to make this work for Heroes of Ivalice, and get yourselves some mockups of whatever you want to do going first.

Worry about the rest when you can produce something that can be played, or watched, or whatever suits your needs at Heroes of Ivalice.  It doesn't matter that all the sprites and maps are either placeholders or completely unedited, you'll get a lot farther narrowing it down and honing in on those key points first.  As long as you're motivated to work and understand what you need to focus on first, though, you should be more than able to learn how to make something to suit your needs.

[Kablizzy]

Dude, thank you so much. This is all magnificent advice all around. When I was at my height as Head Admin at HoI, I was working 16-hour days on my days off for it (And usually 4-8 on days when I worked / went to school), so yeah. I'm certain prioritizing is gonna make a world of difference.

[Shrikesnest]

I apologize for the inaccuracies in my statements.  I should have done some better research beforehand.

[3lric]

I apologize for the inaccuracies in my statements.  I should have done some better research beforehand.

No need to apologize, I just thought it was funny because you seem to have quite a good grasp on most things that
go on here, and yet somehow map editing went completely unnoticed

[Kablizzy]

Haha. So maybe I missed it being stated, but where are these map editors? I assume there are topics for each here on the forums somewhere, but my searches on 'Map Editor' turned up some really weird results, and I assume didn't encompass all of the editors.

[3lric]

You should've did a search for Ganesha, not map editor

Here you go

[Kablizzy]

Nice, thanks! Insofar as what I'm envisioning, if I can get a standalone version of the FFT combat system to run, complete with editable teams, maps, jobs, we can just run the battles through that by hand according to the player's tactics, video capture it, and post it on the forum instead of the huge [Ramza uses Yell! Success! +1 Speed!] text posts that we've been doing.

I'll be looking into Ganesha here shortly, see if it can be made to work for something like this.