• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 

FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

The Damned

(Given I was serious about not wanting the video thread to get derailed again, I'll respond here.)

Re: Quickening "solution" of 8 CT: It's a Trap! [/Admiral Ackbar] [/meme]:

From the video thread:

Quote from: Malroth on January 16, 2015, 09:08:06 pm
8ct was chosen specificaly to con thief fanatics into running shortcharge since a Short charge thief is specificaly NOT a attack up/Defense up/Throw item/Equip heavy blade/two swords/two hands/martial arts thief thus capable of doing some other job well and is instead capable of only getting otherwise redundant turns hence being a trap option.


Malroth, I understood your intentions, but it is clearly not as much of a trap as you think it to be if, as I said, at the very least Bad Luck is made to be actually usable. Then Thief will have another valid reason to have Short Charge anyway just within Steal. Sure, Short Charge on a Thief is generally a worse option than all of those things--well, except Equip Heavy Blade now arguably given Muramasa's effect got robbed by Spell Edge and Knightsword Thieves are...questionable even with the buff to everything but Chaos Blade. Even as a lesser option, though, as long as Short Charge'd Bad Luck is valid, then it's not a "trap". A trap is more like using Equip X anything on the new Mime or the way that the newest Masamune is set-up.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that we leave Bad Luck to remain useless, which would be absurd, which is why I highly doubt that's what you actually meant (to imply).

Even in the scenario where Bad Luck remains arguably the worst skill in the game as it currently is, it's not even a trap because said Thieves are still gaining the all-important stat that is Speed and, here's the kicker, damage on top of that since both Knives and Ninjato incorporate Speed into their formulas. If it's a Sword Thief, then, yeah, his/her damage isn't going up as directly, though it still is technically due to the amount of Speed they have since more turns equip more chances to hit or, generally, do anything.

It's also not a trap because they're generally getting turns quicker and have innate Flee, so should they be stupid enough to get mid-charged (repeatedly) they can still run (far) away while generally getting the move off or healing up at a faster rate than they would have initially. This especially given the HP and MP boost a lot of Clothing and Hats got coming into 1.39.

Sigh. I'd be all for trying to balance Quickening that if I thought it would work, but I clearly don't and frankly the ability has been dominating the game in terms of usage and effect for way too long. It's literally been on about half of all team for at least a couple of years already since, unless you're a masochist like me, there's no reason not to use it unfortunately.

So, let me argue about this another way, since at least a couple of people are so insistent about arguing that Quickening isn't somehow overpowered like that itself would be a reason to keep it around even if it were factually, 100% provably true: What good does Quickening do for the game by sticking around?

It clearly doesn't encourage diversity, especially when it comes to Thieves. It has no straight counters to it other than trying to kill that unit or hit them with Death Sentence, both of which are easily countered by Reraise and general revival; Slow Dance doesn't counter it because 33% odds are not beating 100% odds. It obviates at least three other skills--Cheer Song, Slow Dance, arguably Speed Ruin--outright and diminishes the impact of several more. It also makes +1 Speed items generally less important than they otherwise would be.

So, what good does it staying around actually do? And why does a unit ever need to potentially excess an already immense but still fair effective speed of 20 that arguably requires equipment investment? I'm genuinely curious because no one has ever said they actually like Quickening or that it's a good ability, just that it's not "overpowered" before going on with their days like that alone makes it worth keeping just because it's there to be used (over and over again). At this point, it almost seems like it's around just because it's been around for a while, which is arguably the most irritating thing about it.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

I do hope that the next update to arena fixes the Death Sentence glitch with items that are only immune to dead but not death sentence. That was fine before 1.39. Because otherwise items like Gold Armor, Genji Shield and Angel Ring will might as well be get out of jail free cards if you get my monopoly
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

The Damned

(It's not quite get of jail free since you do lose your turn on the turn you would otherwise die.)

That said, it's highly likely that it will be fixed going into the next version or maybe even as 1.39d whenever FFMaster comes back given that it was that way in previous versions as you say. I still say that Death Sentence and Reraise need to cancel each outright so as to be consistent even with as horribly as Death Sentence as been kicking my ass of late; Death Sentence probably needs to block Reactions too so as to not be rendered even more moot by Dragon Spirit if that's the case though.

Anyway, among the many things I need to do before potentially losing Internet is posting that list of Katana and Draw Out suggestions. I suppose it didn't help that I changed my mind about a lot of this and that I only just now got done with it:



KATANA
Asura Knife: Gains Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning and +1 PA over just Strengthen: Fire, partly because it's outdone by the new Phoenix Blade, partly because of the change to Kaiser Plate, partly because it's always been kind of mediocre despite being the strongest physical katana and partly because between Samurai and Paladins, currently only female Samurai can make decent use of Black Robe; male Samurai and Paladins of either sex need MA boosting stuff to get the best out of the Strengthen of Black Robe, which means they can't really use it in the first place. As compensation, the new Asura Knife may "need" to lose +1 WP though.


Kotetsu Knife: Gains +1 WP and Strengthen: Holy & Dark over just Strengthen: Dark. The +1 WP is mostly just for the sake of not being weaker than freaking Sadist Whip as far as Grand Cross goes given Kotetsu Knife is only Dark weapon (of a grand total of two) to actually go off PA. The Strengthen: Holy & Dark part is because neither Samurai nor Paladin can equip Golden Hairpin without aid of the immensely popular Equip Clothing--please note the sarcasm. As such, the only way to Strengthen both of those elements otherwise for them is to use the currently way nerfed 108 Gems


Bizen Boat: Just gains +1 MA rather than the 100% Dispel Magic I was considering giving it since now I'm now no longer certain about the 100% Silence being entirely useless, if only because Mediators tend to not guard against Silence. That's still kind of dubious, but as long as it becomes the only katana capable of giving MA, people will definitely use it if only for that.


Murasame: This is probably fine as it is, though it could maybe go up another +1 WP still. Shrug.


Heaven's Cloud: Gains Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water, but loses +1 WP since it's getting to keep its chance of 50% Slow. This would have not gotten consideration for this particular if not for the fact that Chirijiraden lost Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water.


Kiyomori: Loses +2 MA and +1 WP and gains Immune: Poison and 50% Cast: Bio. Now other katana might see some actual use. Much like how I think Wizard Staff could be changed into something more useful and special than a literal Wizard Rod clone, (female) Samurai so hellbent on having a +2 MA weapon can just start using C Bag. After all, it can be used with Two Hands.


Muramasa: GAINS BACK ITS 100% FAITH PROC THAT SPELL EDGE SHOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN; MEANWHILE, SPELL EDGE GETS BACK ITS +1 MA AND 100% SPELL ABSORB CHANCE AND ALL IS LESS WRONG WITH THE WORLD. [/RAGE]


Kikuichimo(n)ji: This is fine as it is. I'm still surprised people took my Quake with Fear thing seriously, but it's worked out surprisingly well, so...yeah. Keep doing that.


Masamune: Assuming that we're trying to use the new (horrible) -2 Speed, Always: Haste, still WP: 8 Masamune as a base for changes, then at the very least that version *needs* Immune: Slow to be worth a damn. Even then it's still...meh at best since the Always: Haste doesn't *really* matter (and never will if Quickening dies like it should). Since Always: Haste doesn't do anything other than maybe making sure the A.I. has to spend less turns Hasting than it otherwise would, it's rather superfluous, so the design as a whole can and should probably be scrapped. At least we know -Stats work now between this and the newer Phoenix Blade though.

As such, I might as well just suggest going with the version of Masamune I was originally going to suggest for 1.39 before FFMaster's return: Range: 2; Initial: Regen & Haste; 20% Cast: Comet; 2H: Yes; 2S: No.

I originally had it being Forced Two Hands as well and increasing to 10 WP, but I figure that letting it stay at 8 WP justifies letting it stay boosted by Two Hands, which allows Samurai to use it "better" than Paladins would if it was the case otherwise. It also makes it less likely that its damage will be overpowered since Comet triggering is a free 100 damage for ever strike it trigger on, which can easily add up. Comet's chance for trigging may "need" to be higher though.


Chirijiraden: This can probably stay the suicidal Initial: Berserk, +1 Speed it is now I guess since people seem to actually be using it. I'm not sure if Always: Berserk, +1 Move or Always: Berserk, +1 Speed, -1 PA would be better though.




DRAW OUT
Asura: (Male) Samurai need some type of way to use this better than  either Squire or Monk (or Paladin...or Dancer...or Scholar...or...) currently can in my opinion since male Samurai have so little going for them presently anyway. Hell, the biggest upgrade they got was the change to Chirijiraden the katana, which is technically still a nerf given at very least how suicidal and one-note it is and how useful the old version of Chirijiraden the katana often was.

I'm tempted to say that the "best" solution would be to have Asura hit the user, as odd as that seems, given then that it would force the Clothes-wearing classes to forego either Power Sleeve's +2 PA or 108 Gems Strengthen: All Elements if they don't want to take damage. Sure, the new Defense Armlet would make using Power Sleeve still viable, but outside of Squire, Paladin, Geomancer and Scholar, no other class that can already use Asura better than male Samurai would get access to Strengthen: Fire anymore. Of those, Geomancer would have to forego using Power Sleeve for Black Robe while Paladin can use Asura Knife and Squire & Scholar can use Flame Rod anyway. Additionally, only Paladin can also become Immune: Oil through use of Platina Helmet while still absorbing Fire without incurring the currently fatal Weaknesses that Shields bring. (I suppose that Lancer would also join the classes that can make better use of [current] Asura if Lancers get Robes back like they should, but since that's not finalized yet....)

Shrug. I just figure that something needs to change if Asura is going to actually be worth using on male Samurai since currently male Samurai have nothing going for them in their primary save for  Kiyomori and Masamune, which a bunch of other classes also use (way) better, and their two Innate abilities.

Relatively independent of the above but not necessarily exclusive to it, I also think it would be good if Asura dropped its "Enemy Only" aspect and/or lived up to its name by being tri-directional like how currently only Houkouton is. Again, shrug.


Koutetsu: This is currently fine as it is, as evidenced by it being used quite a bit even though Kotetsu Knife sees next to no use.


Bizen Boat: Being subject to M-EV is/was a step towards fairness, but I suppose it's also true that didn't/doesn't really matter most of the time that Bizen Boat is used given that it most often happens to be used to mid-charge someone. As such, the only other thing I could see being done to balance this--given the current unfortunate restrictions on Draw Out (and Elemental/Geomancy)--would be to reduce its AoE from 2 to 1. That might not be really necessary though. Shrug.


Murasame: This, on the other, *definitely* needs to be AoE 1 rather than AoE 2 in my opinion. There's really no good reason that you should be able to do essentially X-Potion or better your entire party instantly, even if its possible for you to accidentally heal your opponent. Unless, of course, you Zombie them or, more likely, they're already Zombified due to (how popular) Cursed Ring (is still). On top of that, Mimes still being around only makes this even more overpowered and obnoxious as a form of healing.


Heaven's Cloud: If any of the Draw Out's should be "Enemy Only", then it should really be this because both this and its katana are basically nigh-worthless to Wind absorb strategies anyway given how  the only way non-Armor units can protect against Slow is Sprint Shoes. While that's personally fine with me, Slow 2 having absurdly high accuracy aside, it's part of the reason that this is easily the least used Draw Out and that likely wouldn't change even with the proposed change to Heaven's Cloud the katana if Heaven's Cloud the ability is kept as it currently is otherwise.


Kiyomori: This is...as fine as it's going to get, I guess. It's difficult to tell when Berserk status currently lasts forever given this just destroys Berserk units by just itself. The only other way to weaken it without nerfing it into the ground would be to make it subject to M-EV somehow, but I'd personally rather just try balancing Berserk status and Insult first, preferably by giving the former finite CT and making the latter less likely to hit. Beyond that, Poison's CT may need to be shortened, though that's more a general issue.


Murasama: This is fine as it is outside of my views on Death Sentence/Doom and how it could be more consistent, though that's an issue with the status itself and not this ability. So, yes, this is fine currently.


Kikuichimo(n)ji: This is also fine as it is, though losing the old version of Chirijiraden hurt it a bit. The suggested potential change to Heaven's Cloud the katana should alleviate though.


Masamune: Ugh. This ability. I still think it may likely need to be weakened, somehow, but I'll be content with weakening or excising outside factors first, i.e. eliminating Quickening from the game. Aside from that, as with Kiyomori the ability, Regen's CT (and maybe even Haste's CT) may need to be shortened, though again that's more a general issue. Currently I guess that means it's "fine" though. Grumble.


Chirijiraden: This ability is also tricky to balance. On the one hand, it "deserves" to be powerful given how much you have to spend on it and it's already subject to M-EV. On the other hand, it hits *really* horribly hard when powered-up and that it's subject to M-EV is moot more often than not, which is part of the reason that Draw Out-bot Geomancers prefer to use it over any other Draw Out even with the potential for collateral damage. The "best" thing to do might be to reduce its power slightly to MA*8. Again, "shrug" about how necessary that "actually" is for "actual" balance.



As always, feel free to comment on this.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Malroth

Lets analyze these ideas 1 at a time

Katanas:

Asura;
+1PA stregnthen fire,ice,lightning, fire elemental 10WP. Doesn't help male Paladins in any meaningful way, but helps Male samurai be scary melee damage monsters thanks to 2h/attack up damage stacking. Opens alternatives to black robe on a summon/black magic female Samurai but otherwise the ice/lightning strengthening would be difficult to use.

Kotesu:
10PA dark elemental, strengthen holy/dark.  Dark crossing paladins will like this, It could also see use on a white magic female samurai as a way of both stregnthing a holy/dia offence and healing allied cursed ring users.

Biezenbolt:
+1Ma 9wp 100% add Silence, Female samurai would equip it for the MA, 2sword proc builds might place it in the first slot in the off chance that the rare unprotected mage might be affected but since silence is such a scary status effect on the wrong unit that's not going to happen often.

Murasame:
13WP Heals target, Immune Berserk.    This is the new go to weapon for Spellbreaker/Kagesougi builds and is quite a competitive southern cross weapon as well. Female Samurai are looking at a very easy 250 dmg pre fury spellbreaker while equip heavyblade ninjas can hit up to 390 damage maxed out.

Heaven's cloud:
8wp Strengthen Earth/wind/water Wind Elemental, 50% Add Slow.  Won't break any damage records but definately has its place on a 2swords proc paladin as well a Lore Samurai and makes Geomancy samurai almost viable again.

Kiyomori:
9wp, Immune Poison, 50% chance to cast Bio.   No one would equip this, ever,  both classes that can equip it have easy access to both heavy armor and in class add regen+awesome other status and melee guys are going to go for PA boosting. If it kept its 10WP It might be concidered for salty rage Samurai who don't want to bother with Chiri's effects wearing off but it still wouldn't really compete with Asura.

Muramasa:
9wp 100% inflict Faith.   Ahhh old Muramasa, how I've missed you..... gauranteed magic vunerability on a class chassis with the stats to actually cast magic while being immune to enemy status effect spells.....Drool

Kikuichimonji:
someone's tried the 70/70 quake melee monster yet?  guess i've got to see how that's working out before i comment.

Masamune:
-2speed 8wp Always haste:  currently worse than being a empty fist samurai,  at 12 WP it could at least be the "i hit things hard in slow motion" sword but at 8 its a sick joke

Range: 2; Initial: Regen & Haste; 20% Cast: Comet; 2H: Yes; 2S: No.  Now THIS is a Katana worth equipping at 8WP or even 7

Weapon changes If all Taken Together.   Elemental Melee gets a Pretty hefty boost from the improved Asura, Caster Samurai loose a point of MA across the board but get much stronger alternate weapons almost to the point where berserk protection is no longer mandatory. Drawout gets mostly weaker with the exception of Kiku snipers but bards still will be the best draw out users since they will be unaffected.  Asura/Kotetsu Summoner Samurai may become a thing especially with their ability to heal allied undead with melee strikes.


The Damned

February 10, 2015, 02:38:15 am #1624 Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 11:02:29 pm by The Damned
I guess you have a point about my proposal for the new Kiyomori katana. I wonder if just adding +1 Move to that would "fix" it given that I can't really think of anything else to do even though that obviously steps on Knives' space a bit.

All I know is that Kiyomori really shouldn't be "C Bag: The Katana" since otherwise female Samurai aren't going to ever use any of the other Katana, though maybe the changes to Asura Knife, Kotetsu Knife and Heaven's Cloud the katana would see that change. Hell, even the nigh exclusive use of Kiyomori wouldn't be such a problem if male Samurai weren't so...mediocre at best.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Malroth

February 10, 2015, 04:28:12 am #1625 Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 04:45:58 am by Malroth
well if the immunity was to something that actually threatens a caster samurai like Charm or Don't Act then the replacement Kiyomori would see use on tanky caster setups, but poison has no meaning for either paladins or samurai.

Alternately it could be the Non Elemental Melee Katana at 10WP, 20 WEV Immune Blind

The Damned

(Damn it. I always miss a typo or omission, even in shorter posts.)

I must say I like that idea. I vaguely thought of something along those lines when considering alternatives, but then dismissed it between Diamond Armor's ubiquity and the fact that the new Chirijiraden would easily out damage it. Still, it somewhat ties into the actual abilities of Kiyomori the ability and would actually be useful while letting Samurai use something other than Diamond Armor--say, perhaps, Carabini Mail--with it instead; it also be a less suicidal option than the new Chirijiraden. Not sure if it "should" get more W-EV though--like 25%--between male Samurai's general lack of active healing and the fact that I admittedly wouldn't mind giving the proposal for the new Masamune 20% W-EV on top of its Range and other things.

Shrug. It's not like I'll ultimately decide these things anyway.

Regardless, before I forget again, someone has done the 70/70 thing with Kikuichimo(n)ji on a (male) Samurai, but it was with Two Swords rather than the innate Two Hands. The damage was pretty good, like 300~ average when just one procs went off IIRC. It's been a while though since anyone used it since I think that person was Darkblade and that was like two years ago already at least.

(Also, before I forget, part of the reason for switching Muramasa and Spell Edge back with each other is because 100% Faith coming from faster units, one of which has innate access to Two Swords, is pretty overpowering and the new Muramasa is horrifically underpowered compared to it on top of that. Add in the fact that having access to Faith is overshadowing most of the other Ninjato and directly undermines Ninja's elemental -tons, which have been seeing a lot less use lately despite Atheist Bow now existing and the changes to Poles and, yeah, it really needs to change back.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

silentkaster

I think that two items that should gain immunity to poison would be the P Bag and the Light Robe. Given that there are no accessories to prevent poison, and that the Light Robe and P Bag are actually liabilities if poison is inflicted, gaining the immunity on these items might be very helpful. It wouldn't make either overpowered either since P Bag is...well...a bag with no WEV or damage potential (for the most part) and the Light Robe provides a weak 75 HP and an average 50 MP. So...yeah I think that gaining poison immunity on these would be just fine. I also would rather C Bag get a makeover (as opposed to Kiyomori). Yes, Kiyomori is like an auto bye for female Samurai, but C Bag is outdone by almost every weapon group by something in it. In fact, feasibly, it would only be a viable option on Monks and Ninjas, both classes that don't use magic. Even if Mimes could equip bags, it would be at best mediocre as mimes charge times are interrupted by an ally's action. So only talk skill and a few other skills would get a (mild) benefit. (Although it would make a draw out mime a bit stronger).

I think C Bag should gain immunity to Stop, Sleep and Don't Act, and change to +1 MA. This would actually have the C Bag be a strong alternative to some of the stronger, but not as buffed weapons. (Seriously, look at a Scholar. They have access to four other weapons beaides the C Bag for +2MA. Would you rather your squishy scholar gain a bit of physical evade with another weapon and also be able to hurt a little bit if it decides to go for melee? Or no physical evade and doing barely noticeable bag whacks when it decides to melee? I know what I'm choosing...)
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Kurosabes

Genji Helmet: With the Salty Rage around for Always: Berserk and 2 out of 3 jobs that equip armor can also use Chiri for Initial: Berserk (which also has +1 Speed) I don't think will see many using Genji Helmet anymore as it is right now. It could do the same thing as its armor equivalent with ~70 HP and +1 Speed and fill in that "gap" I suppose.

Silk Robe: The Silk Robe got some more MP in 1.39 but it still needs a little more. While randomly trying new equipment setups I found out that Black Hood + Wizard Robe was overall better than Holy Miter + Silk Robe that I have currently. The former gives +175 HP, +70 MP, +2 MA while the latter gives +185 HP, +40 MP, +2 MA. That's a 10 HP loss in exchange of 30 MP which is pretty significant.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

The Damned

(I honestly don't remember the entirety of what I wanted to post when I asked silentkaster to remind me, but putting things off for at least a couple of months will do that, especially with my horrible memory.)

Regardless, I can agree with both of the above comments about Genji Helmet, which literally no one is using, and Silk Robe needing improvements still. Genji Helmet as +1 Speed would definitely see some use too, especially if Quickening dies as it should.

****

Re: (Re)Making An Accessory that has Immune: Poison vs. Light Robe and P Bag gaining Immune: Poison: Between the two options, I still think the better one would just be to give 108 Gems back Immune: Poison since it's currently nigh-worthless without any status immunities. Meanwhile, Light Robe and P Bag see a bunch of use still and, on armored units at least, there's have way to be Immune: Poison via Platina Helmet; Monks also get the still-immunity-bloated Chakra Band. Not that there shouldn't be more Immune: Poison items or at least one that any unit can use; I just don't think it should be by way of Immune: Poison being innate on Light Robe and P Bag. That may just be me though.


Re: Crisis on Infinitely Superfluous C Bag: I'd be up for changing C Bag due to simple fact that even in vanilla, "+2 MA" is easily the most used Item Attribute. So C Bag being the least used bag is hardly surprising. That said, giving it that many immunities seems a bit...weird-slash-overmuch. Why immunity to all three of those things, silentkaster?

****

So yeah, I can't really remember what I was going to say about here before, but I know at the very least that I was going to reiterate that I increasingly agree with Dokurider's suggestion for an Accessory that is Immune: Blind & Charm. I thus again reiterate that I think N-Kai Armlet would be the best fit for it despite being already decent since we really do need another Immune: Blind accessory, if only so that Angel Ring doesn't have a monopoly given all the many people that use Grand Cross.

Sure, it would be another blow to Dark element users as a source of offense, but, honestly, Dark element as viable offense isn't going to be picking up any time soon. Dark doesn't benefit from Oil--it shouldn't, at least as long as Demi is Dark element. Dark easily has the worst weapons right now, which adding Balmung would help, but not by much. And Cursed Ring isn't going anywhere in popularity, at least as long as Quickening remains.

So, yeah, let's please add Immune: Blind to N-Kai Armlet in the next version, FFMaster.

(Beyond that, I think I was going to start suggesting that we try to replace Mime with some other class given how mechanically broken Mime still is or maybe even outright introduce other human classes, but that can wait. To be truthful, though, all of my ideas for "replacements" are leaning towards mage classes.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

silentkaster

Typing from a phone so response won't be too detailed. Actually, the +1MA could probably go from the Bag. However, there is no viable way, with the exception of the unreliable Finger Guard, to block Talk Skill. Even Chakra Band doesn't block against the most (arguably) useful Talk Skill, Mimic Daravon. This blocks the status used by Talk Skill and is a good balance. It will probably mostly see use from support units without providing MA. It does still leave them open to DS and Berserk so it doesn't completely blunt Talk Skill. That was my thought behind it.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Shintroy

Probably the most balanced class in Arena right now.
+Stats are fine. Don't change a thing.
+Basic skill is a fine primary and secondary when paired with almost all classes.
-Counter Tackle is the only issue I have with this class. On high PA units you don't want this going off when you're near or in critical. One of the few physical attacks that can lead to a draw game.
-Ultima. I mean come on 5 CT. MAx9. 1 AOE. Meanwhile Quake/Tornado users landing 250 damage on 40 faith units.



Stats are fine. Has potential to be more than a support class with the right builds. Maybe a hybrid at most since Item IS the primary ability of this class.
+Abilities are all great.

I'd like to recommend a change to Phoenix Down. It's currently the weakest of the rez abilities in Arena giving 1-20 HP. I suggest giving 1 to one more percent than what poison deals. This would prevent sandbag looping since you would eventually get up with enough HP to survive poison.



Stat wise it's balanced. The only class that can use Knight Swords so it has the 0 Class Evasion. I think that's a bit much since there's classes like Thief with 20 C-EV with access to the Main Gauche. Would giving Paladin 5 C-EV hurt?

Ability wise I think Paladin is fine as is. Versatile builds. Self sustaining tanky Grand Cross Paladins, DomieV's Talk Skill/Warpath/Cherche/SCross Disruption Tank Paladin, White Magic Paladins like Truelight's from Crossroads.

Equipment wise. Fine as is.... If it were up to me, which it should never be, I'd remove Paladin getting Katana and give them Flails. That's just me though.


Versatile class. Great ability set, sets, and equipment choices.

Perfect class after the changes to spell guns. Almost every weapon has a use. Bowgun needs an update though. Needs to be a graphic on Armor Break.


Monk is fine as is.
Nerf Chakra Band.
Remove the initial haste headband. Add Super Ribbon
+1 SP, +1 MA, +1 PA +5HP +5MP or something like that.


You mean Time Mage / Priest
Stat wise are fine. Maybe an extra point of PA just because.
Equipment options are fine.

Abilities are fine on paper, especially the new instant Cure spell. Love it with high MA/Faith builds like OHKO holy bots.

Protect, Shell and Regen will forever be outshined by Wall and Masamune due to when the AI tend to use them. (Love instant Wall btw). Would instant Regen be too OP? Maybe changing regen into WoW's Regrowth (acts as a cure and adds regen 100%).


I'll stop here for now. It's more than I expected
Some day my people will be free.

silentkaster

Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am
Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am

I'd like to recommend a change to Phoenix Down. It's currently the weakest of the rez abilities in Arena giving 1-20 HP. I suggest giving 1 to one more percent than what poison deals. This would prevent sandbag looping since you would eventually get up with enough HP to survive poison.


I have to respectfully disagree on both counts, that it's the weakest rez ability and to buff its HP restoration ability.

I don't believe it's the weakest because it offers many things that other revival abilities simply don't. Firstly, it's 100% accurate. (Okay, yes there are times when the AI will try to throw an item through the ceiling or a wall but this is an AI error, not an error of the item or the ability.) This is huge because no other revival ability can claim PD's accuracy. Secondly, combined with Throw Item or placed on a chemist, it has a longer range, no true vertical tolerance and is instant. It costs no MP and has no penalty to use, either. If this even counts at all, it is limited to 99 uses per match, but I don't believe I've ever seen this happen, and really, would prevent an endless match (say three units all the same speed were all together where the PD user uses PD, the enemy unit (say with 100% accuracy and instant) kills the revived unit, and the revived unit misses its turn...this could potentially be an endless loop but for there being only 99 uses of PD a match). It does not count on Faith or Brave either. So in terms of the HP it grants only, yes it is potentially the weakest (though Wish could arguably be weaker) but only in that department, really. So I believe it's pretty balanced as is.

To buff the PD with an HP boost would debuff poison even further. Poison is currently a meh enough status in my opinion just due to the fact that it's self-curable, often negated just by restoring HP or the passive ability Move-HP UP, and can potentially backfire by fueling abilities like Balance or a Blade Beam proc from the Moonlight sword. (Though I do agree with a minor debuff in bringing back an accessory that can block it...I'd agree with The Damned on adding it back to 108 Gems and/or taking away Earth absorption on Magic Ring and adding a Poison Immunity since there are so many other ways to negate/absorb Earth Damage.)

Anyway, here are a current list of abilities that can heal poison. Note that those abilities mentioned may add Regen and therefore cure poison, but won't work if the unit has Light Robe or P Bag equipped.

Squire: Heal
Chemist: Antidote
Paladin: Nurse (Adds Regen)
Monk: Stigma Magic
Priest: Esuna, Regen (Adds Regen)
Mediator: Refute
Samurai: Masamune (Adds Regen)
Scholar: Mad Science (Adds Regen)
Bard: Life Song (Can Proc Regen)

Also Notable: Lancer can avoid taking poison damage by jumping. Another Note: Mime can Mimic any of these abilities which would cure poison and/or add Regen. (If I missed any, please let me know)

With so many ways to cure poison in addition to the general HP adding abilities to otherwise deal with poison, and the fact that all of these can be used on self, I don't think PD should be buffed. In fact, Poison is a counter to PD if anything, and an effective one at that which makes up for its general ineffectiveness otherwise.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

The Damned

(You missed Regenerator, technically, silentkaster as well as the fact that the first Cure was changed specifically this version to to combat Poison. Otherwise, yes, you got everything.)

Regardless, yeah, Poison's sole use basically is screwing over Phoenix Down. If that goes away, then Poison is utterly worthless even with as annoyingly long as it lasts. Cure got changed to keep it from screwing over mages (and usually just mages), which was basically the few other things Poison was/is actually good at. With that more or less gone, screwing over Phoenix Down and Berserk units is all it has. Taking away screwing over Phoenix Down (and Wish) means that Poison status might as well not even be in Arena anymore.

That said, there really does need at least one accessory that is Immune: Poison again. Hence why I've been harping about 108 Gems getting it back. In fact, I'm not entirely against two since making Magic Ring lose Earth would be fine with me since Quake and Earth Slash need to be nerfed regardless and yet Titan still needs a buff.


Quote from: silentkaster on March 26, 2015, 09:55:06 am
Typing from a phone so response won't be too detailed. Actually, the +1MA could probably go from the Bag. However, there is no viable way, with the exception of the unreliable Finger Guard, to block Talk Skill. Even Chakra Band doesn't block against the most (arguably) useful Talk Skill, Mimic Daravon. This blocks the status used by Talk Skill and is a good balance. It will probably mostly see use from support units without providing MA. It does still leave them open to DS and Berserk so it doesn't completely blunt Talk Skill. That was my thought behind it.


I see. I can get behind that I suppose, even if the part I put in bold rather ignores how Defense Ring single-handedly blocked every status Talk Skill could inflict as recently as the last version of Arena. I mean, that was half of the reason I suggested Stall in the first place, even if I now somewhat regret that.

Still, given how obnoxiously long Sleep lasts (since it hasn't been changed from vanilla), I am totally not against anything else being Immune: Sleep even if its Sleep CT really does need to be reduced by half, if not more. At this point, between Stop the spell and Stall somewhat running wild, I'm also not against something else being Immune: Stop either.

Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am
*Squire stuff*

*Chemist stuff*

*Paladin stuff*

*Archer stuff*

*Monk stuff*

*Priest stuff*

I'll stop here for now. It's more than I expected.


Geez. I feel extra long-winded now if that's more than you expected to type. Regardless, I'll use spoilers of my own to try to keep this post uncluttered. There's no need for me to (directly) comment on Chemist (again) though since I already did that above.

Pretty much all agreed here. Ultima needs a buff (again) and Counter Tackle would be perfectly fine so long as you got rid of Bullrush's recoil, even if that meant lessening the damage on it.


Nice to know someone else agrees with the idea that Paladins "should" get Flails even though literally no one said anything when I brought it up months ago. I'm not entirely sure if they "need" to lose Katana though, if only because that would leave only Samurai as being able to use Katana and right now barely half of Katana get used as it is. This especially given that female Samurai never use anything save for Kiyomori in most instances.


So you no longer think that Gastrafitis needs a boost then?


I couldn't disagree about this class more, even despite having agreed with silentkaster completely about Phoenix Down not needing a buff. At least with Phoenix Down, I could understand why you wanted it buff since the Poison sandbag loops are idiotic to look at with the A.I. never learning and Poison (and Regen) lasting way too long given they last after death in Arena.

Here, though, about the only thing I agree with is that Chakra Band needs to be nerfed, though pretty much everyone agrees with that (even if it's a bit annoying that Immune: Petrify isn't working on it as it "should"). The fact that Monk still has quadratic formulas is hugely problematic, as seen by the absurd amount of damage that Earth Slash can do when boosted to its highest levels. Leaving that as it is while giving a Monk innate access to a piece of headgear that boosts their PA even further would be horrible, even if Earth is the easiest element to negate. (Of course, this is ignoring how easily negated Holy is between Cursed Ring's still existent popularity and Oil not working Dark or Holy, so....)


I'm torn between agreeing that Regen the spell should be better and disagreeing it shouldn't solely because both Poison the spell and Poison the status shouldn't even be worse than they are. Even buffing Regen to instant heal wouldn't really do much between the recently buffed Cure and the continued existence of Masamune the ability in all of its overpowered glory. Regen also has the issue of having to compete with Regenerator on the same set, so there's that. Why "waste" an action when you can potentially get the status for free, especially when Regenerator is one of the more decent reactions for mages?

As such, I still think the "best" solution for Regen the spell, at least given how Regen the status currently works, is just to give it (and Poison) to Time Mage. At least then it's not on a class that literally has at least six other ways of healing and would have even more if you believe the best solution to getting the A.I. to use Protect and Shell more actively is having those heal a bit too. (It probably wouldn't do much, really, since the A.I. will use Protect and Shell. It just can't use them well unless it gets them off trying to soften the blow something that's charging, which both mostly benefits Shell rather than Protect and is part of why the newly buffed Wall indeed makes four other spells nigh-useless.)

Going back to Regen the spell (and Poison the spell), I suppose one way to buff them that I wouldn't be against is having them discriminate. No real reason that Regen can't be all only (and that Poison can't be enemy only).


Shrug.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Kurosabes

I do see most teams have Haste somewhere... so why not make the Undead impossible to be Hasted. In most games I've played, the undead are inherently slow. And they can't regen either. So I guess Regen could be disabled too. Kind of like how Reraise is by default. That would indirectly buff Poison status since the Undead could not cancel it out with stuff that adds Regen like Masamune or Nurse. Regenerator would become useless on Cursed Ring users. I'm forgetting stuff probably but just throwing my idea.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Shintroy

I think Gastrophetes gaining dispel would be OP  now that I see what Archer/Chivalry can do. Shoutouts to TrueLight.

I need to go through the equipment first before I talk about class changes. I completely forgot about there being no anti poison accessories in the game when I thought of the phoenix down buff to combat poison loops.

I'll post later though after I finally get matches recorded. Hard to find recording software for a non HD, 1.8ghz single processor laptop.
Some day my people will be free.

The Damned

(Understood.)

It occurred to me while remaking "Blinded by the Light" (the team) into "No Angels" that I've actually come to agree with making Oil apply to Dark and Holy elements now that Oil no longer doubles elemental damage. Before I was mostly against it applying to Dark and Holy elements since it would make Demi 2 into AoE Death and Dia would become really obnoxious what with Weakness still doubling damage (which probably needs to change anyway, for Shields' sake). With that aspect gone, I think Oil working for all elements would probably be fine now, especially since it helps get around Cursed Ring generally telling Holy absorb to screw off and making Dark element to be so "conflicted" due to its continued overuse (in part due to Quickening).

Not a huge deal to me either way though. I just figured I'd post this before it ended up slipping my mind.

(If it happens, then I'd be fine with renaming Oil something else like "Imperil" or "Expose" or even "Libra" or "Achilles", though that's of course not necessary either.)


Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on March 29, 2015, 05:43:13 amI do see most teams have Haste somewhere... so why not make the Undead impossible to be Hasted. In most games I've played, the undead are inherently slow. And they can't regen either. So I guess Regen could be disabled too. Kind of like how Reraise is by default. That would indirectly buff Poison status since the Undead could not cancel it out with stuff that adds Regen like Masamune or Nurse. Regenerator would become useless on Cursed Ring users. I'm forgetting stuff probably but just throwing my idea.


I can get behind the "Regen can't stack on top of Undead" part and not just because it's something that I've been thinking about for my own patch(es). Another reason I agree with it is because Regen makes it really difficult currently to keep track of who the hell is Undead currently due to the status order making Regen's coloration take precedent over Undead's coloration, especially since Regen still works on the Undead normally.

So either making Regen (and Poison, I guess) unable to stack on top of Undead or pulling an FFVIII (?) and making Poison heal Undead units while Regen harms them would work for me as far as Regen goes with regards to Undead.

As for making Undead immune to Haste, as much as the overabundance of Haste annoys me despite being unfortunately understandable, I can't agree with this for three reasons. The first reason is that even if Undead was made immune to Haste, Quickening would still be usable by Cursed Ring units and it's the far more egregious problem, even compared to Masamune the ability. The second reason is that Slow is still pretty crippling and having no way to combat that just because you want to use Cursed Ring or, worse, get hit by Zombie or Necromonicon seems a bit much. The third and final reason is that FFMaster eventually wants to add monsters to Arena (still) and presumably two of those will be the Always: Undead monsters that are Skeleton and Ghost and it also seems overmuch to weaken them before the word "go" is even uttered as far as they are concerned.

Not that I'd be against trying it if other people are for it. I just think other anti-Haste options can be taken instead (or first), like changing Counter Tackle so you can't kill yourself with it or making Oil and Stop both cancel and block Haste. Stuff like that.

Still, both of those are good, interesting suggestions.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Kurosabes

I was editing one of my teams just now, and figured there is no reason to choose Wizard as primary if you have a Lore/Black Magic unit (I could say the same for some other classes comparing to it actually). The Scholar is superior to the Wizard in every way possible, stat-wise. I'll copy the stats here for reference:

Class     HP   MP  SP  PA  MA  Move Jump C-EV  Can equip
Wizard    106  87  8   3   12   3    3    5    Rod,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.
Scholar   106  92  8   7   12   3    3    5    Swd,Rod,Stf,Book,Pole,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.

Dropping MA to 11 and losing the C-EV to 0 could be a way to change this among others



Undead blocks Regen/Poison:
I suppose that way could work. Based on another game, they also have immunity to 'Mind' spells as they are 'mindless' I guess. I think Berserk, Confusion, Charm and Sleep are the FFT equivalents. However that might make Undead more of a good status. And how would the AI handle this I wonder...

Masamune (ability):
Separate: Haste, Regen instead of Add: Haste, Regen. You're still guaranteed one of the two if my knowledge is right about 'Separate'.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Otabo

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pm
I was editing one of my teams just now, and figured there is no reason to choose Wizard as primary if you have a Lore/Black Magic unit (I could say the same for some other classes comparing to it actually). The Scholar is superior to the Wizard in every way possible, stat-wise. I'll copy the stats here for reference:

Class     HP   MP  SP  PA  MA  Move Jump C-EV  Can equip
Wizard    106  87  8   3   12   3    3    5    Rod,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.
Scholar   106  92  8   7   12   3    3    5    Swd,Rod,Stf,Book,Pole,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.

Dropping MA to 11 and losing the C-EV to 0 could be a way to change this among others


Doing that would make it literally worse than Summoner is currently. (aside from HP, which isn't saying much.) Real problem with Scholar isn't even its stats compared to Wizard, its the skillset (mainly Quake and Tornado). I don't even know why Scholar is even that close to Wizard in stats in the first place; that has always bugged me for the longest time now. Wizard, IMO, needs to be buffed, stat-wise; they're supposed to be the prime offensive magic class; why Scholar is better than Wizard is right now is beyond me.

Then again, I don't like using mages period, so whatever happens to 'em, happens.


QuoteMasamune (ability):
Separate: Haste, Regen instead of Add: Haste, Regen. You're still guaranteed one of the two if my knowledge is right about 'Separate'.


Too weak. People would just turn to Haste 2, as if that spell isn't ALREADY being overused enough as it is now as its much more reliable. It'll just become a staple on most teams, just like how Raise/Raise 2 is pretty much. And for Regen, yeah - there's plenty of better ways to get that, whether it be from equips or abilities.

silentkaster

Quote from: The Damned on March 29, 2015, 03:57:30 am

I'm torn between agreeing that Regen the spell should be better and disagreeing it shouldn't solely because both Poison the spell and Poison the status shouldn't even be worse than they are. Even buffing Regen to instant heal wouldn't really do much between the recently buffed Cure and the continued existence of Masamune the ability in all of its overpowered glory. Regen also has the issue of having to compete with Regenerator on the same set, so there's that. Why "waste" an action when you can potentially get the status for free, especially when Regenerator is one of the more decent reactions for mages?

As such, I still think the "best" solution for Regen the spell, at least given how Regen the status currently works, is just to give it (and Poison) to Time Mage. At least then it's not on a class that literally has at least six other ways of healing and would have even more if you believe the best solution to getting the A.I. to use Protect and Shell more actively is having those heal a bit too. (It probably wouldn't do much, really, since the A.I. will use Protect and Shell. It just can't use them well unless it gets them off trying to soften the blow something that's charging, which both mostly benefits Shell rather than Protect and is part of why the newly buffed Wall indeed makes four other spells nigh-useless.)

Going back to Regen the spell (and Poison the spell), I suppose one way to buff them that I wouldn't be against is having them discriminate. No real reason that Regen can't be all only (and that Poison can't be enemy only).




I really think Regen (and Poison) being made instant would be a good change, especially if it does stay in White Magic.

Regen tends to be put on units that don't have good MA but are solid White Magic users like Paladins or Squires. The obvious reason for that is because putting cure spells on these units tend to be mediocre at best. So Regen is a good back up to provide at least a passive healing so the unit won't be out of the fight forever. The unfortunate thing about that is that the unit doesn't get the benefit of their spell until their next turn, and when the AI uses Regen, they or their teammates are usually already in trouble. So here's the problem you get into.

Turn 1: Charges Regen
Turn 2 (Usually doesn't make it this far): Runs in a corner, gains 15% Health.
Turn 3 (If Health amount wasn't significant enough health gain): Remains in corner (If it was enough) Tries to come back into fight with <50% health.

(Obviously Turn 4 would be the latter part of Turn 3 if necessary)

So Regen wastes at minimum two turns (depending on unit) but could waste up to four. The ability Masamune, which also grants Regen, starts working immediately. In fact, it may only be one turn before the unit rejoins the fight (and they're now hasted so they get their turn even faster!) Also, the ability Nurse grants Regen and the unit gets the benefit of Regen on the same turn, along with healing so they'll be back in the fight after one turn.

Also, since the instant Cure is in the same skillset, it wouldn't be a big de-buff to poison since the user must still carry specifically White Magic to have the benefit of the instant heal from Poison (at least in terms of exclusive magic users).

Of course, as a side note, Poison being instant would be the only obvious way to balance this. At least it could potentially create a "Poison curing" loop however unlikely that is...but still...Poison is generally only put on Death/Frog teams when their target is immune to one or both spells, or a heavy elemental absorb team that can't afford one of the more "useful" status spells JP wise. (As a side note, I also think the JP for Poison should be lowered to 50 as 100 doesn't separate it too much from the much more debilitating Frog, even if it is only single panel.)

Of course, moving Regen to Time Magic I think I'd be more on the fence about it being made instant. I really like White Magic being the only "Mage" way to deal with Poison instantly (and even then, the weak Cure still doesn't put a critical mage out of danger range usually). However, if Regen did move to Time Magic, I'd ask that Poison be moved to Ying Yang Magic, just to make it more viable to use.

Also, I agree with Regen/Poison being made smart targeted.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.