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Started by ShadowSkyle, May 19, 2012, 10:30:52 pm

Which plot should the main story revolve around?

Initial Contact With Lucavi
Conscript
Neophyte's Revised Plot

Timbo

I fail to see these challenges as problems. Overcoming continuity glitches is an opportunity. First you figure out where you want to go with your story. If their is a continuity conflict you simply ask yourself, "How do I get from point A to point C?" If your answer is simple then you're probably good to go, if your answer is complex and convoluted then you should walk away from the idea.

The Lucavi problem is simple. If the Knights Templar are the only surviving witness then
1. Not many people witness the actual Lucavi
2. Those that do, die or become Knights Templar
3. Some of the witnesses forget via mundane or magical means, like brain damage.
- For example: After blowing up the auracite generator, Simon wakes up in a hospital bed asking where he was, how he got there, what happened to his friends, and recounts the last thing he remembers, which doesn't include Lucavi, to his last living party member Vormav.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Dome

July 14, 2012, 11:22:27 am #141 Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 12:01:42 pm by Dome
Random Idea:
The main character gets cursed by Elidibs and becomes byblos XD

-Edit-
Awww, ninja'd

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Neophyte Ronin

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, I am not as sure about Option Three as I was before.  Then again, it's the one winning, so I'm not so sure.

Is it true that Vormav became possessed after his wife died of plague?  Where was that written?

formerdeathcorps

Sorry, I'm getting Draclau confused with Vormav.  Draclau lost his wife to a fanatic.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Dokurider

You know, all of this ideas could be easily combined into one story with exception of the initial contact with Lucavi because it's a plot hole in waiting for the most part. In fact, it's preferable since most of these ideas alone couldn't make a full or satisfactory story on par with FFT.

A young man (or woman, gotta be open minded) is conscripted into the Ivalician army, specifically into a company that's suffered some serious losses as of late. He or she, along with the squad of fresh meat that he/she came with fight a series of draining battles that always end up in stalemate or retreat. Talk of the strange going ons that have been going on locally and how they're very similar to the feats Elidbus was famous for before he disappeared. Eventually, even the command is starting to take these rumors seriously. After a particularly devastating loss, command decides to send their most inexperienced and therefore most expendable squad to investigate these sightings, hoping Elidbus can be convinced to rejoin the army and turn everything around.

formerdeathcorps

July 15, 2012, 06:01:19 pm #145 Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 06:08:37 pm by formerdeathcorps
You know, I think we can merge in all three of Neophyte Ronin's plots this way:

The player is an Ordallian spy sent to find a way to disorient Ivalician resistance throughout Zeltennia in the closing days of the war.  He creates false miracles and wonders to trick the desperate Ivalician command into thinking that Elibdis has truly returned.  As the situation grows more desperate for Ivalice (and the spy gathers more people to vouch for his reliability), the events continue until the Ivalician command have no choice but to take notice.
Ivalice then sends a reasonably balanced search party of expendables to investigate Elibdis' location, led by the spy.  Included among them are many conscripts alongside the veterans of the counterrevolutionary purge mentioned in "Desperate Solider".  Obviously, Ivalice would rather them all die than have them give popular accounts of their deeds.  The spy uses this distrust to turn his band of misfits against Ivalice, causing them to further disrupt Ivalician communication and organization while feeding the news of Ivalice's massacres against their own civilians (as mentioned in "Desperate Soldier") to Ordallia as propaganda and as means to coerce Ivalice into accepting their surrender.  (In other words, by the time the spy engages in his wanton romp, he already has knowledge that the secret treaty negotiations are occurring so his mission is now to find ways to strengthen Ordallia's negotiating hand while further demoralizing Ivalice.)  When Ivalician command finally realizes their mistake and tries to chase him down, he then flees across Ivalice and chances upon Deep Dungeon, where he is transformed and his men meet their final doom.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Neophyte Ronin

Bingo!  And it parallels the intrigues described in Germonik's Tome as well.  Thanks, FDC.  That representation of what could go on has my vote.

ShadowSkyle

July 18, 2012, 03:37:01 am #147 Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 05:30:54 am by ShadowSkyle
Sorry for the lack of replies on my part, everyone. Had a sudden, random vacation, and haven't had access to a computer until now. I will be returning on Friday, and will give this mod more direction at that time.

Also, I changed the Poll to reflect the revised plot. Maybe now we'll have a more definitive winner in the poll.

Previous Results:
Initial Contact With Lucavi: 3 Votes
Conscript: 3 Votes
Ordallian Spy: 2 Votes
Desperate Soldier: 4 Votes
Missing Elidibus: 6 Votes

Quman

And... suddenly my proposal is getting more votes than the proposal that combines two of the proposals that previously been beating mine. Oookay... well, I guess it won't be too hard to eliminate plot holes by decreasing Simon's involvement. Just make him a major NPC that never learns about the Lucavi and there shouldn't be too much of an issue. Eh, I guess I'll wait and see what our final decision is before I think too much about execution.

Dokurider

For everyone that's voting for the Lucavi, realize that the only people that even had contact with the Lucavi in the 50 year war was Vormav and Draclu, and that was at the very tail end of it. Most of the contact with the Lucavi occurred during the War of the Lions. At best, we're looking a recap of FFT's events from a different perspective. At worst, it's a plot hole. What I'm trying to say is, Contact with the Lucavi is an awful idea.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: Dokurider on July 20, 2012, 04:04:46 pmWhat I'm trying to say is, Contact with the Lucavi is an awful idea.


Yup.

But you're expecting people to actually want to do something other than rehash the exact same bullshit.  Democracy!

Dome

Quote from: Dome on May 20, 2012, 01:50:18 pm
Good luck. And I seriously mean it, you will need plenty

What did you guys expect?
Giving FULL control to the people means that such stuff CAN (And probably will) happen

Anyway...

What if X guy founds a stone, the stone makes him a Lucavi's Minion and that's the cause of the Fifty years war? XD

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

The Damned

(My, this has taken off as of late.)

I voted for Neophyte's revised idea (again?).

As for the Initial Contact with the Lucavi plot, besides what Dokurider pointed out, it comes off as way too convenient for pretty much all the Lucavi to appear during 50 Year War, get defeated/re-sealed and have everyone either be dead or ignorant. Keep in mind that pretty much everyone got mercilessly slaughtered at Riovanes and there were still reports of an especially peculiar "monster" doing it. You'd have to quite the high level cover-up and while poor Funeral might have blind to Vormav's designs, I don't think even he would be that blind.

That said, you could do a plot where Lucavi appeared before the War of the Lions...as long as you make the appropriate changes during War of the Lions. However, if you're trying to base the plot on something that ties directly into explaining the background of FFT's plot without changing anything in the vanilla plot, then it's just a plot hole waiting to happen as has already been said.

That said, still fully expect it to get votes and maybe win. No skin off my back if it does or doesn't.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Neophyte Ronin

Initial Contact with Lucavi could work if it was reserved to Elidibus alone, as he is not necessarily connected to the regular Lucavi working to revive Ultima.  To be more precise, he may be what Delita was: with his own ideas about things.  The plot does not have to use the other Lucavi, and that works well for those who think it shouldn't, period.  Don't get careless and say that only Vormav and the Cardinal were the only guys in the know.  We have no clue what Elidibus is after, or what his connections are, because he was added to the zodiac devils but not explicitly with them with them.  So, an Initial Contact of Lucavi predating Vormav and Delacroix most likely involves him, but it could encompass some other issue.

Quman

Quote from: The Damned on July 20, 2012, 10:10:57 pmAs for the Initial Contact with the Lucavi plot, besides what Dokurider pointed out, it comes off as way too convenient for pretty much all the Lucavi to appear during 50 Year War, get defeated/re-sealed and have everyone either be dead or ignorant.


What the... are people even reading my proposal before criticizing it? I admit that there were problems with it (thus my having retracted it,) but I'm not a complete idiot. The proposal wasn't some massive thing involving the Lucavi all awakening. Only Shemhazai and Mateus were intended to be involved in the plot. I also mentioned Elidibus being in the story, since it made sense that we might address him acquiring a Zodiac Stone and mysteriously vanishing during the recapture of Riovanes Castle if we were covering the Zodiac Stones, but this isn't really anything that doesn't already exist.

I'm also getting tired of people saying that absolutely nobody but Vormav or Draclau could know about the Lucavi during the war. I don't deny that adding one or two new characters who knew about them is a stretch, but it irks me when people speak in absolutes when those absolutes aren't necessarily the case. My proposal has enough issues that people really shouldn't have to exaggerate to make it look bad.

There are ways that the plot could work, but we've already eliminated my main reason I even proposed the plot in the first place, so I'm not going to get too invested in working out the details unless we actually end up getting tied to this plot. But the thing a lot of you are ignoring is the fact that ShadowSkyle also isn't an idiot. I highly doubt my proposal will end up being our direction even if it does get the most votes, so there's really nothing to worry about here.

ShadowSkyle

Not to mention, if we end up with a tie, as it is right now, BOTH plot lines will be included. Not to worry either way. I am very confident in my writing ability, and you will NOT see a rehashed plot, no matter what is decided upon here!

The Damned

(I'm not sure anyone is calling anyone's intelligence into question here, even implicitly. I wasn't at least, given [potential] plot holes can happen to the competent.)

Yes, I read the proposal. A while ago.

Admittedly, given how I haven't really been following the thread, I couldn't quite remember what you wanted and I was being lazy about going back to check considering stuff kept changing and my desktop still being abysmally slow; I had even less incentive since I don't see myself helping with this for multiple reasons.

So sorry about that "confusion".

That said:

Quote from: Quman on July 21, 2012, 04:05:03 amI'm also getting tired of people saying that absolutely nobody but Vormav or Draclau could know about the Lucavi during the war. I don't deny that adding one or two new characters who knew about them is a stretch, but it irks me when people speak in absolutes when those absolutes aren't necessarily the case.


I wasn't speaking in absolutes. I dislike speaking in absolutes in general and it would be extra-hypocritical of me to say such a plot-line was impossible when I'm basically doing some variation of it for Embargo.

All I was saying, mistake in the number of Lucavi involved in aside, is that it just seems kinda annoyingly convenient for everyone save two possessed guys and potentially a sociopathic, hermit mage to be none the wiser or even to begin suspecting things. You want to bring in another player or two, original character or not, fine. You're pretty much going to have to.

If the intention, however, is ultimately to line up with vanilla's storyline, meaning that you can't change anything there and are guiding the story to that as an end goal, then yeah, the "Lucavi were around the 50 Year War, secretly" plot still has the most going against it. You can make it work if you really want to, though.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Timbo

Escalation. That is the reason why the Lucavi concept has so much steam. Comic book fans know what I'm talking about. Eventually it got boring watching Superman beat the piss out of regular bank robbers. Eventually he need to beat up on Criminal Masterminds like Lex Luthor. Eventually though, Lex Luthor became irrelevant and Superman's villains started getting superpowers. After those guys became boring he started fighting evil versions of himself.

The problem FFT faces is that the first game set the bar really damn high. Political intrigue and conspiracy that reaches all the way up to the heavens and all the way down to hell. The goal of every sequel or prequel is to outdo it's predecessor. Prequels also have the added responsibility of setting up the original story. Sequels on the other hand have the freedom to go where they want, so long as the reference the original tale. (Which is why I was primarily behind the idea of a sequel so we could move beyond the Lucavi to something bigger and better).

Now that we are in prequel town, it only seems right to make the game relevant to it's predecessor's biggest ideas. In Final Fantasy Tactics the big idea was the Lucavi conspiracy.

To me, a game surrounding the Deep Dungeon seems anti-climactic. The Deep Dungeon is kind of lame. It's a big black disappointment.

Before we make any decisions, I have to ask. Do we have the ability and talent to create 50 new maps? If not I suggest we choose a plot that stays in Ivalice so we can recycle as many maps as possible.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

formerdeathcorps

July 21, 2012, 01:48:31 pm #158 Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 01:53:56 pm by formerdeathcorps
And that, Jack, is precisely WHY many action and video games series devolve other time.

Look at FFVII, and then all of its sequels.  In each sequel and movie, Square tried to outdo the apocalyptic story in VII with more apocalypse and drama, until the each new plot (or lack thereof) just made many members of the fanbase sick.
Or you could look at Bleach.  The repeated insistence on fighting bigger and tougher enemies makes the original story sagas look like a joke, while the new enemies seem like they are just impromptu additions to the plot.
Or you could look at Pokemon TCG.  Even though there is no plot, there is a set of expectations about how the card game should play.  The Diamond and Pearl cardset was literally so powerful compared to previous versions (with reduced energy costs per damage, linearized weakness system, and higher overall HP) that it wasn't really compatible with older cards and mechanics, even though the company insisted it was.  It caused sufficient outcry that the newest cardsets had to return to the older mechanics, for the most part.

In other words, "escalation of drama and excitement" requires more suspension of disbelief, which puts extra strain on the plot.  Furthermore, this strain isn't linear; after a given amount of escalation, ANYONE will realize that the story is breaking the fourth wall.  The only people who'll end up playing are those who care for action and cool effects over the story.

Nor, Jack, would I even argue the Lucavi are central to FFT's theme.  The bonds and expectations between family, the necessities and intrigues of power, the suffering of the people are all central themes to FFT as well.  In fact, at least one reviewer (I just don't remember the link) pointed out that the Lucavi was actually the WEAKEST part of FFT's plot because once it started, the story could then omit the gritty political realism that actually started the plot (and was still influencing it until the end).

Quman, the Damned already pointed out why I cannot support the first plot.  Personally, I believe in minimizing assumptions.  Thus, we should not make an impromptu addition to the 50 Years' Plot just to be cool; in the process of linking the prequel to the history of the Lion War, we'd have to assume a broader conspiracy composed of faces who did not then exist later, meaning also a process in fading/killing/removing such characters from history.  This assumes way too many extra links, and even if explained, the resulting story is more likely to be crap.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Quman

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2012, 06:07:20 am(I'm not sure anyone is calling anyone's intelligence into question here, even implicitly. I wasn't at least, given [potential] plot holes can happen to the competent.)


I wasn't taking anything you said as an insult. The idiot thing was my own evaluation of a plot that takes place during the Fifty Years' War that includes all twelve Lucavi (though I suppose idiot may be a bit harsh on my part.) It was also my evaluation of people who blindly follow polls without listening to feedback and ensuring that the path they set down can actually lead to success.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2012, 06:07:20 amI wasn't speaking in absolutes. I dislike speaking in absolutes in general and it would be extra-hypocritical of me to say such a plot-line was impossible when I'm basically doing some variation of it for Embargo.


I had moved on from addressing what you said there, but I should have made that more clear by doing something more than a paragraph break. Dokurider is the most recent to bring up the 'fact' that only Vormav and Draclau were the only ones to know about the Lucavi, though it's come up before.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 21, 2012, 01:48:31 pmQuman, the Damned already pointed out why I cannot support the first plot.


I'm not trying to convince people to go with my proposal. Like I said, the whole reason I wanted to do it in the first place has already been eliminated, so I really don't care that much about it now. I'll try to make it work if we get stuck with it because I want this hack to be a success, but I'm not really supporting my proposal otherwise. I've been freely admitting throughout this discussion that my plot is a stretch. The only reason I'm fighting some of the criticisms is because it irks me when people use unfair criticisms or false absolutes when they could make their points without resorting to such. That's why the only part of his criticism I responded to was the part that was untrue.