Map Discussion

[PX_Timefordeath]

Here's the list of maps we created on Chat, divided into areas. Maps are here. Discuss how you feel about this list, and if you want to move some maps.

Large Maps

6) At the Gate of Riovanes Castle
9) Citadel of Igros Castle
15) At the Gate of Limberry Castle (1)
16) Inside of Limberry Castle
22) Magic City Gariland
28) Colliery Underground First Floor
32) Slums in Dorter
47) Zarghidas Trade City
55) Graveyard of Airships
59) Underground Book Storage Third Floor
69) Murond Death City
71) Dolbodar Swamp
74) Sweegy Woods
76) Zeklaus Desert
85) Mandalia Plains
87) Bariaus Valley
99) Main Street of Lesalia
100) Public Cemetary
110) VALKYRIES
112) TIGER


Medium/Large Maps

1) At Main Gate of Igros Castle
3) Hall of St. Murond Temple
17) Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle
19) At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2)
26) Weapon Storage of Yardow
27) Goland Coal City
34) Cellar of Sand Mouse
37) Ruins Outside Zaland
39) Underground Passage in Goland
40) Slums in Goug
42) Warjilis Trade City
46) Cemetary of Heavenly Knight, Balbanes
49) Fort Zeakden
51) St. Murond Temple
52) Chapel of St. Murond Temple
56) Orbonne Monastery
61) Underground Book Storage Fifth Floor
63) Golgorland Execution Site
66) South Wall of Bethla Garrison
75) Bervenia Volcano
78) Zigolis Swamp
79) Yuguo Woods
80) Araguay Woods
81) Grog Hill
83) Zirekile Falls
95) Church
97) Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia
98) Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia
105) TERMINATE
108) VOYAGE
116) Arena

Medium/Small Maps

2) Back Gate of Lesalia Castle
4) Office of Lesalia Castle
5) Roof of Riovanes Castle
7) Inside of Riovanes Castle
8) Riovanes Castle
12) At the Gate of Lionel Castle
13) Inside of Lionel Castle
18) Office of Limberry Castle
21) Zeltennia Castle
23) Belouve Residence
24) Military Academy's Auditorium
45) Ruins of Zeltennia Castle's Church
48) Slums of Zarghidas
53) Entrance to Death City
64) In Front of Bethla Garrison's Sluice
68) Bethla Garrison
77) Lenalia Plateau
82) Bed Desert
90) Germinas Peak
96) Pub
101) Tutorial (1)
109) BRIDGE
113) HORROR
115) Banished Fort

Crap Maps

10) Inside of Igros Castle
11) Office of Igros Castle
14) Office of Lionel Castle
20) Inside of Zeltennia Castle
25) Yardow Fort City
29) Colliery Underground Second Floor
30) Colliery Underground Third Floor
31) Dorter Trade City
33) Hospital in Slums :(
35) Zaland Fort City
36) Church Outside of Town
38) Goug Machine City
41) Besrodio's House
43) Port of Warjilis
44) Bervenia Free City
50) St. Murond Temple
54) Lost Sacred Precincts
57) Underground Book Storage First Floor
58) Underground Book Storage Second Floor
60) Underground Book Storge Fourth Floor
62) Chapel of Orbonne Monastery
65) Granary of Bethla Garrison
67) Noth Wall of Bethla Garrison
70) Nelveska Temple
72) Fovoham Plains
73) Inside of Windmill Shed
84) Bariaus Hill
86) Doguola Pass
88) Finath River
89) Poeskas Lake
91) Thieves Fort
92) Igros-Belouve Residence
93) Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building
94) Broke Down Shed-Stone Building
102) Tutorial (2)
103) Windmill Shed
104) Belouve Residence
106) DELTA
107) NOGIAS
111) MLAPAN
114) END

[Kaz]

Yes - there's definitely some that are significantly better than others

[philsov]

changing starting positions will make 95% of all the bad maps into workable ones.  

The only things that should not be in the pool are the truly incomplete ones, and maybe hospital in the slums due to massive bottlenecking and ranged advantages.

[philsov]

ok, here are pictures generated from the current ENTD placement.  Changes that I recommend right off the bat:

- Fix placement so that number 1 and number 2 are the closet two units to the opposing side
- In instances of paired spawn (like #52) pair up don't pair up 1 with 2 and 3 with 4.  116 did a good job with this.
- In instances of a single-line spawn, I recommend the order be something to the tune of 4-1-2-3, with the primary units in the middle and the lower units to the outside.

- Moar clusters!  Too many single line spawns.

- Fix initial disparity in formation where one half is clustered while the other side is divided (beltha north, e.g.)

spoiler

[/spoiler]

[Zaen]

Hmm... let me clarify my Yes. I think we should limit them down, but more like 15 or 20.

[ffta707]

Not to 10, but like Zaen said. So yes, lower them.

[PX_Timefordeath]

Changed the poll. Also, the maps that I labeled as crap were maps we found basically unfixable, where any form of map placement would give one team an advantage over the other. Also, we try to avoid splitting up teams.

[Eternal]

On a sidenote, would you guys consider adding more Depth 2 Water or Lava tiles to certain maps? I think that would give more use to certain Move abilities.

[Zaen]

I agree with the above. Especially Lava. You know you love lava. Everyone does... except in Minecraft.

[philsov]

I should clarify my vote!

I voted "use as many as possible", because variety is awesome.  For the sake of tournaments the ref may opt to have a single map for all teams in all fights, which is fine, but there's no reason to reduce for the sake of reduction.  What I do suggest is to trim the fat -- there are numerous (mostly storyline-only) maps that are small, purely flat, and  with little to no obstacles.  We don't need to use all of them, since the only thing they do is bloat the random pool.  They -may- be useful for setting up a variety of different party formations, but that's about it.

Also +points for editing the maps to include different lava/deep water.

[PX_Timefordeath]

At guys who propose we edit maps

Want to do it yourself?

[philsov]

of course not.  This armchair is far too comfortable.

[logus]

I think you ought to keep in mind that this "reduction" is not just for the sake of reduction. The votes of a few were considered in order not only to take out bad maps, but also to:
1:take out redundant ones. I saw no point in keeping two maps that had pretty much the same structure just with different textures.
2: take out maps that would only have a small portion of them used in the case of fair positioning, thus simulating smaller maps with similar structure.

Unfortunately, only this "few" were in chat to vote, more people would probably make a better choice. Good thing PX made a topic for discussion though...

And the water/lava idea is awesome. Good luck finding someone to do it though =^D

edit: a map that could use a lot of water 2 deepness would be bethla's sluice map. It would have to be redone in order to match what it looks like *after* ramza opens the gates. That map is unusable as it is, since there is no good starting position that uses the entire map well.

[The Damned]

I wouldn't mind trying my hand at the map editing provided I learned or was taught how to do it. I've still been a lazy bastard and I haven't had the urge to do anything, especially when...whatever happened to R999 happened.

That said, I think should perhaps see if we can correct map problems before omitting them completely. Of course, we'd have to agree on what those problems were....

Regardless, I'm not going to vote just yet.

[Melancthon]

I assume that "Crap Maps" are not being used.  Is that correct?  I voted to lower the total amount of maps, but I still need to look over them in more detail.  There are some interesting maps out there that end up nearly identical to a lot of other maps purely due to starting positions.  Maps 12 and 13 for example.  I understand that this is a balance issue (it wouldn't be fair to start someone at a severe height disadvantage for example), but that doesn't make it any less disappointing.

EDIT:  Is there a place where all the maps are named and shown?  Something like what phil posted but with each map named.  I ask because what I would LOVE to see is something like what phil posted but with each image in it's own named spoiler, or something to that effect.  I need to study a bit before I try to do something like that myself.

[philsov]

height disadvantage

Is only present if there is a longbow floating around.  Otherwise it's just "height difference" which is a welcome thing for AoE effects and range issues*.  Map 13 is perfectly fine with the more default starting positions -- in fact, -better- with the default positions so long as there are no longbows.  It is the same for Grog Hill, END (lol), Dorter II, and Colliery to name a few.  

* - Assuming of course there's no "I can melee you but you can't melee me" blocks of 3.0 to 3.5 height different in the way, and in the case of the maps above they're not present.

Is there a place where all the maps are named and shown?

Don't think so, but it certainly isn't difficult to open up the picture in Paint and add in the text.  The names are all listed in a link in the OP.

[Shade]

Maps 31,75,69 suck.

(75 sucks cause ranged units are IN HUGE advantage, while melee strugles to get hit's at all)
(31,69 has bad placement(in 31 if other team blocks team that is cornered, well cornered team has to hope that other team doesn't have magic at all)(69 has bait, don't know in this can units reach it easy(maybe with 4 move), bu if they can their are all trying to kil one guy and don't care about others.))

[philsov]

Meanwhile, I think we should also manipulate the character list.  As it currently stands Team 1 always wins on CT ties and slow action resolution.  Suggest going something like 1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4 instead of like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4.  I don't know if it's easy to modify the spreadsheet generator to do this function, or if it's better to do it as an afterthought in fftastic -- but it's a worthy change imo.

[FFMaster]

Would you know how to do this at all? All I really know is that the priority goes Guests > Enemy > Ally. So the "Guest Side" gets to move first all the time right now.

[philsov]

afaik the character list for these fights is made before the battle even starts, in pretty much exact order that they're input on the memcard.  Since p1 is 9 through 12, they get priority over 13 through 16 (p2).  So... the easy fix is when someone is labeled as "p1", instead of getting characters written to slots 9, 10, 11, and 12, they should be written to 9, 12, 13, and 16 instead, with p2 getting the opposite (or something... 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 is probably the best arrangement though), with followthrough in ffpatcher regarding [s:2rpfq53l]unit ids[/s:2rpfq53l]/placement/team color (all unit IDs are FF, that makes it simpler)

I'd do some fiddling in patcher and with tastic to test this but I have no clue which ENTD corresponds with which maps.