FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Fantactic1316]

We tried 35% Hi-Potion before. Wasn't doing enough. Currently, both X-Potion and Hi-Potion are used frequently, and X-Potion costs a bit less JP to compensate for Hi-Potion being a bit better.

Chakra and Stigma Magic went through a similar evolution. It went from original, 1 AoE centered around self, to 2 range single target, to its current form. Single target made it pretty meh, but the range was nice, so we gave it the current AoE. And it's fine.

And magic pre-range buff? Far from impressive. Magic is a threat, and is actually being used now. I think that's good.

Auto Potion and Absorb MP trigger against Dances (Wiznaibus for AP). Faith Up also triggers. The Stat Save reactions trigger from HP Damage. It'd be pretty nuts if it triggered off everything. Also, the stat reduction dances have had their success rate lowered from 50% to 40%. I hardly consider them dropping stats "heavily." You basically need an incredibly defensive setup like Raven has to make it work.

Also, keep in mind that it's basically impossible to stop every single setup out there.

If 35% Hi-Potion wasn't doing enough, couldn't people have just put their JP toward X-Potion? Maybe I'm just being too picky about it because it's beating me, but nerfing X-Potion while buffing Hi-Potion just seems counterproductive. They do both have their strengths and weaknesses in their current incarnation though, which is the beauty of FFT, so I guess I don't have too much room to complain.

Chakra and Stigma Magic...yeah that's probably just my personal preference, then.

Are there videos of this "far from impressive" magic? I haven't exactly been frequenting Hacktics and keeping up with all the version changes. I find it hard to imagine a well-built mage team causing anything short of utter destruction though, even with 5-range Holy. I could be wrong though. I'm sure most of the people on this forum are probably more familiar with the ins-and-outs of the Arena patch than I am. I've been watching the Tournament videos on Youtube for years now, but only recently have I been actually playing around with the metagame.

It would be kind of nuts if the stat saves triggered on everything. (I'm remembering an old match where twin Wiznaibus met up with two speed save units.) However, I think a dance that drops a stat, if it connects, should still trigger a chance to save a different stat (or the same stat). From my view, what makes a team like Raven's so invincible (apart from the fact that they can tank and heal like nobody's business...and the fact that Raven knows the AI well enough to limit the Dancers) is the fact that hardly anything they do triggers reactions...and certainly none of the really good reactions. It'd be nice if they triggered stat saves, though admittedly that could cause a few complications. It would also be nice if they triggered Counter Magic. And do the Talk Skills trigger anything apart from Finger Guard?

And yeah, rock-paper-scissors, I know. I do need to keep that in mind. My main team beats my twin Samurai team, which can beat the MA mage teams, which can beat my main team. Pretty much textbook rock-paper-scissors. I am learning a lot from repeatedly getting my ass kicked though. And just from running test matches in general really. It's sometimes hard to see a team's strengths and weaknesses on paper. "Two Chemists and two Dancers," I said to myself. "Pfft, I can take that!" Should've known it was called "The Brick Wall" for a reason. Apparently I am very derp. I'm just glad that I decided to run these matches on my own computer and not post up my teams in the submission thread without testing them, thus allowing everyone else to watch the foolishness that inevitably occurs while attempting to design a decent team.

I can still make changes to my Tourney team if I get them in before April 28th, right? The build I originally submitted is infinitely weaker than the one I'm testing now...and I'm still fine-tuning the test build.

[Fantactic1316]

Martial Arts doesn't affect Punch Art skills??

[dacheat]

I'm pretty sure that it does...

[Fantactic1316]

Might be an issue with the team builder spreadsheet then. Guess I'll have to fire up a match to know for sure.

EDIT: Yep, that's it. It wasn't affecting the damage output on the simulator spreadsheet, but it does work in game.

EDIT2: I'm an idiot. Changed the value of the ability, but not the modifier.

[Gaignun]

Which version of the spreadsheet are you using?  Martial Arts should be modifying punch art skills in v1.01.

[Fantactic1316]

See my second edit. I was just using it wrong. I was adding and removing the Monk skill, but not changing the value on the modifier. The simulation only applies the effect to damage output if the modifier is set.

[Fantactic1316]

Me again, back for more whining. You guys sick of me yet?

Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.

Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.

Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?

[TrueLight]

Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.

The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.

Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?

Your Monk is an idiot.

[Fantactic1316]

The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.

Okay, so I can power up my Geo with gear. But an Oracle can inflict status at a higher rate from longer range. A Priest with Holy and MA gear can do ungodly damage (far more than even a well-equipped Geomancer) at 100% accuracy and outranges the Geo by 2 panels. A Wizard could conceivably attack from an effective 7 range with AoE, while a Geo can only hope for an effective 5 at best, assuming that the target happens to be on level ground. I maintain that Geos can't really effectively compete against their counterparts.

ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.

Your Monk is an idiot.

Fair enough. Guess I'll have to think about limiting his choices.

[dacheat]

I kinda sorta agree with Fantactic on Holy (but not Flare). In and of itself, it isn't an unbalanced skill, but IMO it makes the White Magic set OP. I mean, just with White Magic alone you can be a walking artillery piece with Holy, a good buffer with Protect/Shell2, a rezzer with Raise 2, and the best healer in the game with Cure 4. I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.

[CT5Holy]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.

Unrelated note, but Bio 2 and 3 JP costs could be lowered a bit IMO.

What do people think about Songs/Dances down to 150 JP?

[formerdeathcorps]

The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.

Just White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).  If their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.

ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.

If we're talking about strengthening Geomancy, I don't see why this is also being brought up.  To be honest, geomancy is only a good damage option on a specialized MA setup (which necessitates something like thief or mediator as the secondary), but I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).

Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.

Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).  Also, this 20% is to final damage so you don't have round down issues like you do with ATKUP.  On the whole, Unyielding is a bit more common because not many units have that dual attack option.

CT5Holy, the only songs not worth 200 JP are the HP ones.

[AeroGP]

Returning to standard procs doesn't really do much for the Elemental skillset, since it's still at a low proc rate on a low damaging move that requires specialization to make the most of it. It would buff counter flood considerably, though.

[Fantactic1316]

I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.

Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.

I'd take 5 range evade-able Geomancy over 4 range concentrated Geomancy.

The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.

Maybe not, but you can still put a lot onto one unit. It's easy to have an optimized MAtkUp Holy Priest with Cure 2, Raise, and Esuna. The MA setup makes both Holy can Cure more effective, she can raise, and she can heal status too.

Good points though about ways to defend against such a mage or to turn the high Faith against them. And as previously mentioned, the MA gear leaves them squishy and susceptible to status. However, that only counts if you have a unit that can reach the Priest with that 6 range advantage.

I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).

You've got my vote.

Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).

That makes some sense, but skills like Murasame can be boosted by straight MA and MAtkUp support. (Though I'm not sure what the formula is for Transfusion.) For Draw Outs, MAtkUp is effectively the same thing as Overwhelm. Does a Samurai need a boost to both two-handed death and 2 range AoE at the same time? The AI would probably have trouble picking between them anyway. And if you need to raise both stats, you could always use MAtkUp for skill and PA on the gear for a unit that's balanced in both areas.

I still think Overwhelm is redundant, and I'm still not really seeing a drawback to it. I'd like it better if it worked like Fury/Faith, meaning you give more damage but you also take more damage. Even if it were something like "Increases physical/magical damage dealt by 20%, but increases physical/magical damage received by 10%". That could be the trade-off for getting to boost both stats at once.

That's my two cents.

[dacheat]

The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.

It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Just White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).

Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.

Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.

I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?

If their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.

How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.

[AeroGP]

Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.

[dacheat]

Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.

I never said Holy was OP. I said that the White Magic set was OP. I was just suggesting that nerfing Holy is the easiest way to balance it. I agree that the Priest should have an average/above average offensive spell, but not a 6 range nuke.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

[formerdeathcorps]

How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.

A charging unit will be priority targeted by the AI, especially by skills that can cancel the attack.  A unit hanging back at a distance of 6 can easily be stopped by a mediator because threaten/refute/mimic daravon have a range of 3.  Ditto with Short Charged Paralyze.  A fast unit would get 1HKO'd if and only if the spell goes off before his turn.  A 12+ SPD with haste would likely get that crucial intermediate turn unless the mage has short charge.  But if the mage has short charge, she's not pulling a 1HKO.  Similarly, if the holy is being directed at a unit behind my front lines because the AI can pull a 1HKO (but can't 1HKO my 370 HP samurai), my front-line samurai with haste is probably only at a distance of 4 from your holy user and can use bizen boat if she gets a turn.

Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.

In many cases, that defensive unit is the one providing the healing.  Thus, the AI ignoring that unit because of his high HP total only helps him to his job of protecting his allies.  Also, if holy becomes a 2HKO on my non-defensive units, unless you wounded them to critical, they'll keep advancing as I heal myself off MHPUP, regen, or some healing reaction.  IN a case like that, holy simply becomes another weapon the volley of attacks from both sides.

It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.

For all the options available to you, you still shouldn't purchase them all.  You'll have the AI use protect when it should use cure and vice-versa.  That can cause your squad to lose tight matches; this advantage is double-edged.

Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Except as I just made clear, White Magic's offense is great but not too diverse.  Hence, overall, it's only above average.  It's comparable to draw out and summon in terms of usefulness.

[Fanatic]

Geomancy is actually kinda of nice. Mathmatically, the best carrier class is the Bard, and you can set up a bard to do roughly 126 damage and still have an accessory slot free for shell, protect, 108 gems, or whatever you want to put there. You HP will be crap (250ish?), but with 40 brave, 60 faith, shell, and maybe something like counter flood, you can put up some very respectable numbers without being OHKOd.

I was actually thinking of running a team with two optimized bard/geos. I'd have to combine them with two healing units, but 126 damage counter flood would be pretty fun. Course, shell + autopotion would ruin my day, not to mention status effects can vary a bunch...

I'm with FDC on White Magic. White Magic is not OP. Utility is not OP. By that logic, Monk is OP, because Monks can 1) inflict an instant death status effect, 2) instantly cure most status ailments, 3) restore HP AND MPs to multiple units, 4) Revive dead units, 4) hit a wide area of effect, 5) strike with powerful unevadable single space attack.

I'll grant that White Magic is better at most of those things than Punchart (not status removing though). But White Magic is subject to charging, so without short charge, you run the risk of the dreaded mid charge attack. And assuming you're not rocking undead, all you have to do is slap on "cancel" or "absorb" holy, and white magic can't hurt you at all. True, you can sandbag pretty damn good with it, but if you are sandbagging, you aren't attacking. It may be counter intuitive, but from my personal (perhaps "limited") observation, a heavy sandbag team will probably lose to a team optimized for massive damage - optimized damage teams usually lose because they have team members taken out of the fight before they can let loose with all their power. This is precisely why status effect teams are so deadly - they can derail an offense from the get go.

I support things as they stand with white magic.

[Fantactic1316]

I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?

I think the formula's actually okay, personally.

It is just one offensive spell with one element. Pit Holy against a team with two Small Mantles and two Chameleon Robes and you're screwed. Although, that build would be pretty rare, at best.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Whereas I think Holy is OP by itself, but only because of the range. My challenge would be: Name one other skill or class that can deal over 300 damage at 100% accuracy from 6 panels away.

The Stone Gun (6 range, 100% accuracy) deals ~200 to units with ~55 Fury. The Magic Guns (again, 6 range, 100% accuracy) deal ~150 from a 70 Faith unit to a 100 Faith (Faith Rod) unit with a Tier 1 spell, which fires most often. Tier 4 Black Magic does comparable damage, but at only 5 Range. Flare does higher damage, at the same range, though with greater MP and CT values.

I'm of the opinion that *if* Holy and Flare get to be 6 range, then their MP cost should go up by at least 10, their JP cost by at least 50, and their CT by 1. If it's going to be high damage *and* 100% accuracy *and* 6 range, there should at least be some attempt to deter people from spamming it. Another suggestion could be to subject Holy/Flare/Tier 4 to Magic Evasion (though I'm sure everyone hates that idea). Currently, M-Ev gear doesn't do very much except against low Tier magic and Draw Outs.

As for a skill set with similar variety, Punch Art would come in at a distant second. It can heal, revive, remove status, and deal damage, both single panel and AoE from up to 5 range, and that damage can be increased by an optimized PA set. Although, in everything but AoE damage, Punch Art is far outclassed by White Magic. There could be a case for charge time and MP cost, but those are currently negligible to an optimized mage.

Perhaps if MA gear didn't give as much MP. Look at something like the Golden Hairpin, which gives 1MA *and* strengthens Holy and Dark *and* has the most MP out of all the Hats. If you had to make a choice between high damage or spamming, that might make things slightly more balanced.

There are lots of things that could make mages less OP. Though I think the easiest thing would be to put the range of Holy and Flare at 5. Hell, I'd even support a range buff support skill that would boost range from 5 all the way to 8, because then they'd have to choose between high range or MAtkUp.

And to anyone who thinks that White Magic isn't currently OP or is easy enough to get around, run your team against teams like "Team Rellia", "Welcome to my Mind", and "Holy Stones" and let me know how it goes. I'd bet money that such well-designed mages could be every bit as threatening with only 5 range.

My assertion all along has been that a well-designed mage with competent teammates is perfectly capable of kicking your ass with 5 range, so why does it have 6?