On making a good SRPG

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

I think I just got served.

[Dokurider]

Without a system like this set up, Speed really does rule everything. It's hard to change the general fact that a unit with higher Speed will have their turn come quicker than someone with lower Speed.

Well yeah, but now it's totally the opposite. Speed is now just an arbitrary number that sometimes factors in attacks. Who cares who gets to go first on your turn? I don't like how it dominates the game completely, but I don't want it to be basically pointless.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

Well yeah, but now it's totally the opposite. Speed is now just an arbitrary number that sometimes factors in attacks. Who cares who gets to go first on your turn? I don't like how it dominates the game completely, but I don't want it to be basically pointless.

I'm not saying a turn only only includes your units. I'm saying a turn includes all units on the battlefield, enemy, and ally. The highest Speed gets to go 1st every turn, and the lowest goes last every turn. Better example:

Ally: Knight SPD 5, Archer SPD 7, Ninja SPD 9
Enemy: Priest SPD 8, Thief SPD10, Monk SPD 6

Order goes:

Enemy Thief
Ally Ninja
Enemy Priest
Ally Archer
Enemy Monk
Ally Knight

And that is 1 Turn. Then it goes to Turn 2 and starts from the beginning in the same order, unless someone's SPD is modified.

[Dokurider]

Ah, my mistake.

Still, in order for that to happen, magic has to become instant, and that while that would definitely  work, it would also make things a lot more blander and a lot less strategic.

I came this idea a while ago, but it was just until now that I realized it could be used to nerf Speed.

I was playing a FPS a while back (can't remember what) when I commented  to myself, "Gee, all this leading my shots business, imagine if I had to lead my attacks in FFT..." That struck me, at the very least, would make an interesting mod, but how would I represent leading in FFT? By giving everything a charge time. From Punch Art all the way down to Attack. I thought it was a cool idea, but I knew I couldn't do it completely because so many skill sets are so wonky and finicky are being modified, so I put it on a mental backburner for a while.  

Now I see it as a way to nerf Speed. By adding charge time to everything, Speed is no longer all powerful. There will be some exceptions that will have instant CT like Steal, some Basic skills, some Talk Skills, and some other assorted skills. The only problem is that the Charge penalities will make Evasion and being a tank worth less. The solution to that is to simply remove the penalties altogether. Charge would now just a preparatory status, nothing more. Maybe there would be an old school charge status with all the old draw backs for some magic skills/skillsets. And maybe different charges for different weapons.

Your idea isn't bad, it's just takes too much of FFT's complexity out for my tastes. Frankly, I would rather have Speed be OP then lose a major part of FFT.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

By adding charge time to everything...

Still wouldn't change the fact that physical > magical. Magic looses it's strike of having to charge, but physical still is 0 cost, outputs more damage, and there's no Doublecast. Also, with everyone needing to charge everything, Dancers and Bards would gain the upper hand as their Preforming status lets them continue actions between turns, and now everyone else is slower to responding to this threat. And the issue of them being overpowered due to everyone being so slow still isn't fixed unless Preforming status is removed. Slowing their CT on their Songs/Dances too much would just make them a useless class as well.

My vote would be to remove charge time and add in new costs. You could change it to where Brave and Faith are no longer values used in damage formulas, but rather a pool of points to use for skills. Brave for physical, Faith for magical. Different classes get different starting Brave/Faith battles at the start of combat, and you can increase/decrease Brave and Faith with skills. The power of basic physical attacks should be scaled down, and weapons that magic users attack with, like rods, staffs, etc. should preform a magical attack that's also scaled down on a comparative level to physical attacks, and so they won't be punished soley for the fact that all default attacks are physical based when their PA sucks. Then physical classes could have skillsets focused on dealing increased physical damage, since their regular attack damage has been scaled back, and magic users can have a skillset in the same vein, just magical oriented. Brave/Faith can also still determine your reaction chances but switch magic related reaction skills to Faith, rather than everything being Brave. Then it creates a system where yeah, you can spam your special moves and burn up your Brave/Faith, but then you're going to drop your chances of being able to use reaction skills, thereby making you have to find a nice balance between the two.

If you really want to make it interesting, since Brave/Faith are your new source of cost for skills, turn MP into a vital stat too, and make all magic hit at MP instead of HP, however, you still die if you hit 0 MP. This setup will truly make physical tanks like knights a physical sponge with their high HP, and magical tanks like Summoners a magical sponge with their high MP. Much better than having physical users always having the edge with higher HP totals and no need for high Faith and in turn high magic susceptibility. MP would need to be scaled for each classes though, as by default some are just way too low for this to be fair.

Now for an example to make this less confusing:

Our units will be a Knight, Archer, Wizard, and Summoner.

Knight: 500 HP, 250 MP, 70 Brave, 25 Faith
Summoner: 250 HP, 500 MP, 25 Brave, 70 Faith
Wizard: 300 HP, 350 MP, 40 Brave, 60 Faith
Archer: 350 HP, 300 MP, 60 Brave, 40 Faith

Brave and Faith values are all how much they start with. They can be increased/decreased in battle. There is no way to raise/lower permanent starting values.

Scenario 1: Knight attacks Wizard

Knight uses Stabity Stab skill, which costs 30 Brave to use. Knight's Brave drops to 40, and he deals 310 HP damage to Wizard. Wizard dies like normal.

Scenario 2: Wizard attacks Knight

Wizard uses Magic Missile, which costs 30 Faith to use. Wizard's Faith drops to 40, and he deals 310 MP damage to Knight. Knight dies as now 0 MP = Death.

Scenario 3: Archer attacks Knight

Archer uses Aim for Nuts, which costs 15 Brave to use. Archer's Brave drops to 45, and he deals 250 HP damage to Knight. Knight lives, with 250 HP remaining.

Scenario 4: Wizard attacks Summoner

Wizard uses Force Choke, which costs 15 Faith to use. Wizard's Faith drops to 45, and he deals 250 MP damage to Summoner. Summoner lives, with 250 MP remaining.

Scenario 5: Knight gets revenge for Scenario 3

Knight proceeds to attack Archer with a regular physical attack. Archer has Blade Grasp as his Reaction skill. Since Archer used Aim for Nuts, his Brave is 45, instead of 60. Now he only has 45% added to his evade, as he only has 45 Brave left, where he could have had 60% added if he didn't use Aim for Nuts earlier.

Scenario 6: Summoner gets revenge for Scenario 4

Summoner proceeds to cast Zodiac on Wizard. Wizard has Counter Magic as Reaction skill. Since Wizard used Force Choke earlier, his Faith is 45, instead of 60. Now he only has a 45% chance of countering Zodiac back, as he only has 45 Faith left, where he could have had 60% chance if he didn't use Force Choke earlier.

Scenario 7:Summoner wants to restore Knight's Brave

Knight used up his Brave on skills, now he's down to 0 Brave. His Summoner buddy wants to restore Knight's Brave, as at 0 Brave Knight can't use physical Reaction skill or physical attack skills. Summoner casts Lionheart on Knight, which raises Brave by 50. Knight now has 50 Brave.

Scenario 8: Wizard wants to damage Knight's Brave

Wizard knows Stabity Stab skill will rape him. He wants to hit Knight's Brave so he can't use it again. Wizard casts Chickenfoot, which lowers Brave by 50. Knight is back at 0 Brave, and can't use Stabity Stab anymore, as well as physical Reaction skills.

Scenario 9: Archer wants to restore Wizard's Faith

Wizard used up all his Faith on spells, now he's down to 0 Faith. His Archer buddy want to restore Wizard's Faith, as at 0 Faith Wizard can't use magical Reaction skill or magical skills. Archer uses Bible Thump skill, which raises Faith by 50. Wizard now has 50 Faith.

Scenario 10: Knight wants to damage Wizard's Faith

Knight knows Magic Missile will rape him. He wants to hit Wizard's Faith so he can't use it again. Knight uses Drawinism, which lowers Faith by 50. Wizard is back to 0 Faith, and can't use Magic Missile anymore as well as magical Reaction skills.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you still have any more questions on the matter, just ask. I tried to make it as non-confusing as possible. And keep in mind, all numbers/values can be scaled up/down for balance issues.

[philsov]

the current plan with the ASM'd patch is to apply both Global class evasion (50% effectiveness on sides, 25% effectiveness on back) and innate weapon guard for all -- resulting in anywhere from 10 to 30% base evasion for all non-back attacks, while halving speed growth (9 speed at level 99, possible 12 with speed-stacked equips) to make charge-time actions more viable throughout the game.  With both of these in place, the magic vs. melee gap is a LOT smaller, and it works within the already designed engine of the game.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

the current plan with the ASM'd patch is to apply both Global class evasion (50% effectiveness on sides, 25% effectiveness on back) and innate weapon guard for all -- resulting in anywhere from 10 to 30% base evasion for all non-back attacks, while halving speed growth (9 speed at level 99, possible 12 with speed-stacked equips) to make charge-time actions more viable throughout the game.  With both of these in place, the magic vs. melee gap is a LOT smaller, and it works within the already designed engine of the game.

I will give it that it definitely is easier to accomplish with the game's preset engine, but if adding more physical evade options balanced the physical/magical gap, then vanilla FFT already accomplishes that with late game shields, mantles, Abandon and BLADE GRASP, which is supposed to be the ultimate "Fuck you!" to physical attacks. Physical > magical still. It doesn't fix the fact that physical attacks output more damage, have 0 cost, are instant, that magic has no Two Swords equivalent, and that magic has a stat that helps resist it, where physical doesn't. Also, Concentrate will just put physical back on it's untouchable throne anyway, as will physical attacks that don't miss, like Jump.

Also:

And the issue of them (Dancers/Bards) being overpowered due to everyone being so slow still isn't fixed unless Preforming status is removed. Slowing their CT on their Songs/Dances too much would just make them a useless class as well.

Something would having to be done about the Dancer/Bard class then because they'd be broken. When I was playing 1.3, I picked up a Bard and Dancer Ch.1 through much grinding, and I found that with everyone's Speed so low at the point in the game, they could shoot off 2-3 dances/songs before another unit's turn even rolled around. I was healing around 50-60 HP between waiting one unit's turn to another, while dealing 40-50 damage in that same time frame. 1.3 Fort Zeakden was a joke because of this, as was any battle where I could hide in a corner, or run away. Small maps were trickier, but even vs. Wiegraf on 1.3 at the Bard could heal me enough to slight invincibility on high HP units, and the Dancer dropped their Power to the point where I was invincible. Once I was under total control, I had the Bard sing till I had insane Power, and swept everyone under the rug. 1.3 Dorter was won for me solely on Nameless Dance shooting off so quick and Frog/Sleep/Stopping everyone to the point of 0 retaliation.

[philsov]

I will give it that it definitely is easier to accomplish with the game's preset engine, but if adding more physical evade options balanced the physical/magical gap, then vanilla FFT already accomplishes that with late game shields, mantles, Abandon and BLADE GRASP, which is supposed to be the ultimate "Fuck you!" to physical attacks.

Yes, but mantles and shields come at the expense of equipment slots -- shields moreso as it meant being a specific class or waste a support slot, and even on a natural shield wearer shields = no two swords/hands.  Meanwhile vanilla blade grasp was doubly broken in that it brought things down to 3% hit rate (which is patently absurd, same as perma low faith imo), and that the player never had to deal with it on the enemy except 1 fight.

And again its more evasion plus speed reduction -- there's nothing quite like charging up a Demi2 and double-turning YOURSELF :'(.

It doesn't fix the fact that physical attacks output more damage, have 0 cost, are instant, that magic has no Two Swords equivalent, and that magic has a stat that helps resist it, where physical doesn't. Also, Concentrate will just put physical back on it's untouchable throne anyway, as will physical attacks that don't miss, like Jump.

Faith status ramps up magical damage.  Magical damage has range, aoe, and less potential for evasion.  Concentrate means no two swords/two hands for anything other than a ninja, and Jump has a charge time.  Magical and Physical damage can be brought to a seperate but equal status.  

But going back to dance/song -- you can just make their abilities not affect the whole map -- something like a large radius around the performer should suffice.  Or, yes, you can simply not make their skills persevere and act like any normal charge time ability except under its current design performing loses evasion but doesn't have the charge-time damage penalty.

[Dokurider]

ITT: Walls of text

Still wouldn't change the fact that physical > magical...but physical still is 0 cost, outputs more damage...

True, but it does nerf speed, at least. And it also lessens the gap considerably. Physical damage can be nerfed by nerfing their biggest damage outputs, Two Swords and Two Hands. We can start by taking out the biggest offender, the Monk, by making bare fists no longer duel wield and removing Martial Arts as an innate. Then we nerf the damage multipliers of Double Hand and Duel Wield altogether (with Double Hand coming up on top) so they don't do as much. And if it's still a problem, we can just scale PA growth down a notch or two. I'm fine with Physical Attacks having no MP cost, but they should not be able to surpass magic in damage output. I think it's quite possible to balance the Physical with the Magical without rewriting FFT's game engine.  It just requires some fine tuning and lots and lots of ASM hacks.

As for Singing and Dancing, I think it's possible to strike a balance with increasing it's CT. As long as it doesn't go back to Vanilla levels, it will be okay. Alternatively, there is always turning it into a standard charge move, or nerfing it's range.

[SilvasRuin]

If you really want to make it interesting, since Brave/Faith are your new source of cost for skills, turn MP into a vital stat too, and make all magic hit at MP instead of HP, however, you still die if you hit 0 MP. This setup will truly make physical tanks like knights a physical sponge with their high HP, and magical tanks like Summoners a magical sponge with their high MP

I just want to say that I actually like that idea.  It is similar to the very interesting combat strategies present in Star Ocean: Till the end of Time, and using something other than HP and MP for costs would make me far more inclined to actually go all out.  Star Ocean's problem was that I felt far too vulnerable using magic until I got those MP regen accessories, and then I never ever took them off except when upgrading to something better.  (The straight up upgrade to the accessory with 6% instead of 3% and that trophy that had the regen AND plenty of other powerful bonuses.)

Anyways, having to keep an eye on two statistics made things more interesting and it made characters more diverse in what they were effective against.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

In vanilla, how useful would the mp regenerating licenses of FFXII be?
1.  Restore MP when you take damage, in proportion to the damage taken.
2.  Restore MP when you deal damage, in proportion to the damage dealt.
3.  Restore MP when you KO an enemy.

And if every ability that could cost mp and have a charge time did so, how much useful would magic become?

[Dokurider]

In vanilla, how useful would the mp regenerating licenses of FFXII be?
1.  Restore MP when you take damage, in proportion to the damage taken.
2.  Restore MP when you deal damage, in proportion to the damage dealt.
3.  Restore MP when you KO an enemy.

And if every ability that could cost mp and have a charge time did so, how much useful would magic become?

I think they would be unbalancing as an innate/innates. It would really nerf MP draining. However, as reactions, they would be excellent. Mages really lack good reactions, and these would be really good for them.

As for giving everything a charge time like I suggested earlier in the topic, it would really serve to keep the speed stat from being too important like it is now and FFT overall would be a better game for it. Not too sure about giving an MP cost to everything. I think giving everything a charge time will be sufficient for Magic.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

Concentrate means no two swords/two hands for anything other than a ninja, and Jump has a charge time.

In 1.3 a Thief can do a Two Swords setup with Concentrate. And now that they equip Ninja Swords, they're actually viable to use. Or just abuse the Speed boost of two daggers. A Lancer doesn't need Two Swords. Attack Up + Jump is more than enough to devastate units, and as a plus Jump won't miss. Jump is free to use, charges rather fast, and gives a Lancer invincibility when they use it. Definitely nowhere near on the same level of magic's charging penalties of 0 evade, MP cost, and extra damage.

Faith status ramps up magical damage. Magical damage has range, aoe, and less potential for evasion.

Faith status also makes you super vulnerable to magic damage, and putting Faith status on someone with low Faith is hard enough already. And they could just cancel it with Innocent, which will be very easy to do since you just gave them Faith. Physical has range with Jump, Wave Fist, Earth Slash, Throw, the Swordskills, Bows, and Crossbows. AoE is on average going to get you 1 extra unit to hit, and the best spells, Holy and Flare, don't have it. And freaking Zodiac is hard enough to get, not to mention his enormous cost. Magic may have less evasion sources, but it has more resistance sources. Low Faith, Reflect, and null/absorbing an element. Plus a physical class will still be just as deadly with Concentrate on them, while a magic user will be crying for Magic Attack Up/Half MP/Short Charge with the same setup.

We can start by taking out the biggest offender, the Monk, by making bare fists no longer duel wield and removing Martial Arts as an innate.

Removing their innate Martial Arts would kill their class. They can't equip weapons already, and now you want to steal their trump card? No Two Swords on fists is enough.

Magical and Physical damage can be brought to a seperate but equal status.

If you want to make magic and physical equal, then you need to give them both the same costs, and limitations. At minimum physical attack damage should be scaled back majorly, and magic user's weapons like Rods, Staffs, Books, etc. should do a magic based attack by default, rather than a physical one with whatever necessary scaling is needed there. Then both physical and magical users should have their more damaging/strategical moves be from their skillsets. Faith should be removed from magic user's equations, or physical needs to be given a stat of some sort that can help resist it's damage.

I'm fine with Physical Attacks having no MP cost, but they should not be able to surpass magic in damage output.

They should be on the same level of damage output, just that they're coming from a different source. Think of Pokemon with Physical vs. Special. They both have the opportunity to inflict equal damage as each other, but they're still very separate and unique, as you can't just have too many of one. That's the purpose of physical and magical attacks, to set up a scenario where you're not able to use only one move and one tactic to breeze through every enemy. But it doesn't work if they're not developed to be fundamentally similar in damage output, or if the scales are tipped in one's favor.

It would really nerf MP draining.

I don't recall anyone ever bothering with an MP draining strategy. In fact, it's almost non-existent, because you don't need to. It's easier to just kill a unit rather than drain their MP, as most units who really need MP are made of glass. MP draining and/or disabling/ailments in general really only works if you're facing targets that are hard to bring down in 1-2 turns. Most enemies in FFT aren't, and the ones that are don't rely on MP to begin with, (Elmdor, Celia, Lede, Zodiac bosses to name a few).

MP cost is just a minor issue on the unbalanced scales of physical vs. magical. It's pretty easy to fix that with an Ether or Chakra. I mainly bring it up because it's unfair to magic that physical costs 0, but usually outputs more damage.

[Dokurider]

Attack Up + Jump is more than enough to devastate units

If I may interject, Jump is not effected by Attack Up or anything like that.

Magic may have less evasion sources, but it has more resistance sources. Low Faith, Reflect, and null/absorbing an element.

Yes, but Magic counters are by far less pervasive than Physical evade. EVERYTHING have Physical evade and can get really high. Besides, Low Faith and Reflect can backfire with being less effective with friendly magic, Silence is mainly used by another Magic Class, leaving only resist/null/absorb element, which is not very frequent.

Removing their innate Martial Arts would kill their class. They can't equip weapons already, and now you want to steal their trump card? No Two Swords on fists is enough.

Having Martial Arts as a innate is like having Attack Up as a innate, except it only works on fists. Fists have an exponential formula, so they are already guaranteed to do the most damage out of all the Physicals. With MA and either Concentrate or Attack Up stacked on, they can either do a lot of damage you can't avoid, or just do a shit ton of damage. Currently, they can out damage Monsters attacks with ease. Factor in having multiple ranged attacks, the ability to heal HP and MP and status to themselves and multiple units, and the ability to revive, and I think Monks will be perfectly fine without Martial Arts.

They should be on the same level of damage output, just that they're coming from a different source. Think of Pokemon with Physical vs. Special. They both have the opportunity to inflict equal damage as each other, but they're still very separate and unique, as you can't just have too many of one. That's the purpose of physical and magical attacks, to set up a scenario where you're not able to use only one move and one tactic to breeze through every enemy. But it doesn't work if they're not developed to be fundamentally similar in damage output, or if the scales are tipped in one's favor.

Except you need to consider exactly what kind of classes specialize in Magic and Physical. Most Physical classes can go toe to toe with other units, they are the front line. Most usually can't deal a lot of damage, but they have excellent survivability. Most Magic classes can't go toe to toe with other units because of their poor survivability. But they are very powerful. If both kinds of classes had the same Damage Output, then balance would fall to the Physical side. Why would you use the classes that can't survive for crap, when you can use the classes that can survive well and still have the same damage output? Generally speaking, Magic classes trade survivability for more power, while Physical classes trade power for survivability, so they are pretty equal, in theory anyway.

I don't recall anyone ever bothering with an MP draining strategy. In fact, it's almost non-existent, because you don't need to. It's easier to just kill a unit rather than drain their MP, as most units who really need MP are made of glass. MP draining and/or disabling/ailments in general really only works if you're facing targets that are hard to bring down in 1-2 turns. Most enemies in FFT aren't, and the ones that are don't rely on MP to begin with, (Elmdor, Celia, Lede, Zodiac bosses to name a few).

I did. It's really one of those underestimated strategies IMO. You are right it's not so viable all the time, but it can be quite the Gordian Solution to a otherwise difficult battle.

MP cost is just a minor issue on the unbalanced scales of physical vs. magical. It's pretty easy to fix that with an Ether or Chakra. I mainly bring it up because it's unfair to magic that physical costs 0, but usually outputs more damage.

That can be corrected.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

If almost every ability costs mp, then MP Switch+Absorb Used MP = Invicible.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

Yes, but Magic counters are by far less pervasive than Physical evade. EVERYTHING have Physical evade and can get really high.

Which can be solved as easily as attacking from behind. Low Faith can't be solved easily, especially if it's low enough, and impossible if it's 0. Reflect requires you to keep someone around with Dispel, or some kind of equivalent, which most people don't. Innocent is even harder to solve, as your magical solutions are all out the window.

Low Faith and Reflect can backfire with being less effective with friendly magic

The advantage of being immune to all magic far out weights the downside of not being able to use friendly magic, especially seeing as most friendly magic's effects can be duplicated from non-magical sources.

Fists have an exponential formula, so they are already guaranteed to do the most damage out of all the Physicals.

Sounds more like the formula for fist damage with Martial Arts should be fixed then, rather than removing the skill from them. It's supposed to be their class perk after all.

Generally speaking, Magic classes trade survivability for more power, while Physical classes trade power for survivability, so they are pretty equal, in theory anyway.

Something like that shouldn't come down to physical vs. magical. That should be class specific for each physical and magical classes. The purpose of physical vs. magical is so that you add variety to damage sources, making it harder for you to counter everything. The minute you're able to counter anything thrown at you, that's when you become unbeatable.

Having the physical and magical sources of damages is a way to stop you from being able to counter anything thrown at you. It's suddenly not enough to have the Armor of Infinite Defense because someone can blast your weak magical area and take you down. And mechanics don't allow you to equip both the Armor of Infinite Defense and the Armor of Infinite Magical Defense, so you decide on one, and have that guy's weakness get covered by someone else with the opposite setup. A good strategy game will force many scenarios like this on you to stop you from countering everything. So you got one guy with the Armor of Infinite Defense and another with the Armor of Infinite Magical Defense to cover him. You're unstoppable now! Except that status ailments exist, and some dude can come along and cast Death on both of them, which doesn't care about your defenses. Again, you're forced to include someone who can cover this issue, let's say someone with the Armor of No Ailments. Now you're invincible, right?! Nope, because you realize that your guy with the Armor of No Ailments can't cover physical or magical damage very well due to him not having infinite in either defense. Now he's become your single point of failure, and if he dies, you've lost your counter, which means game over.

A good strategy game will keep compounding these scenarios on you to the point to where you can't have an answer for everything, so rather than just trying to stop everything, you're forced to come up with a plan of attack and see if that tactic will prevail over what your enemy has in mind.

Limiting high damage, low life to one spectrum, and low damage, high life to another reduces the number of counters you have to deal with, because you already know how to deal with it's source in particular. If all sources of high damage are magical, then create a team that resists magic in every way, and your opponent will only be able to hit you with low damage physicals, giving you the upper hand. But when both people get the same idea, then both people have countered everything, creating a stalemate.

With both physical and magical having both high damage, low life and low damage, high life units, it becomes harder to counter everything. A Knight should be a low damage, high life physical unit, while a Ninja should be a high damage, low life physical unit. On the magic spectrum, a Priest should be low damage, high life, and a Wizard should be high damage, low life. You can't have the ultimate defense because in trying to completely cover one source, you're leaving yourself open to the other. That's the purpose of different sources of damage, not for one to be high, one to be low.

If almost every ability costs mp, then MP Switch+Absorb Used MP = Invicible.

Except that they're both Reaction abilities. And a broken setup like that is the reason why you can never have two activate at the same time, or even set two.

[philsov]

Except that they're both Reaction abilities. And a broken setup like that is the reason why you can never have two activate at the same time, or even set two

As a side note we can in fact set two (or more, max four) reaction ablities as innates for any given job.  However this hard-overwrites the equipped reaction slot so its best employed on monsters and enemy-only classes.  There's a priority system based on which innate slot each reaction goes in, or in cases of unique triggers (both counter and counter magic, for example) you see both employed rather well.

In the case of MP Switch and Absorb Used MP (plus Move MP Up!), they share triggers but with a mid-range brave value you can expect decent uptime out of both of them.  This multiple reaction thing is also really cool because even at said mid-range braves because you have all these reactions possibly firing off the time in which zero reactions go off is minimal, thereby always keeping the player on his toes.  It'd make a hellish boss!

[Dokurider]

Which can be solved as easily as attacking from behind.

Well there's still mantles...

The advantage of being immune to all magic far out weights the downside of not being able to use friendly magic, especially seeing as most friendly magic's effects can be duplicated from non-magical sources.

Not really. Regen's pretty cheap. Haste only other sources come either as an initial, or unreliably from Draw Out (and a rare Draw Out at that). Reraise comes pretty cheaply from Dragon Spirit, but you are sacrificing your reaction slot for cheap reraise. Otherwise, it's initial or unreliably from Talk Skill. Protect and Shell do come cheap from Knight Sword (which are limited in supply), Maximillan/Lordly Robes (which are really in limited supply) or as Salty Rage. The fact that Salty Rage is not in limited supply and gives you unlimited Protect and Shell is why some people think it's cheap. Other than that, only Kiyomori will give you Protect or Shell. Faith comes perament with Faith Rod, but is limited supply and Faith is a double edged sword. So is Reflect. The only thing that non-magic sources can out do magic pretty well in is actually healing HP/Status, which Item trounces White Magic handily, not to mention element absorb strats. Which is why I think Cure magic should heal by percentage, rather than it's current Faith_MA*X formula.

In my experience, low faith is major deal breaker. Haste and Raise/Raise 2 are a main staple of my strategy for FFT throughout the whole game, right up to the final boss. Yeah, 3 spells make me avoid low faith units.  Go figure.

Sounds more like the formula for fist damage with Martial Arts should be fixed then, rather than removing the skill from them. It's supposed to be their class perk after all.

I definitely think Fists could use a different formula. Take this as an example. A unit with 20 PA and 75 Brave will do 300 damage with his fists, without MA factored in at all. Rune Blade, the most powerful weapon you can buy that isn't brave based or randomized, has 14 WP and will do 280 damage. The Kikumonchiji has 17 WP, but is brave-based, so it does 255 damage. The Giant Axe and the Slasher can do 320 damage and 400 damage respectively...when they feel like it. Now let's stack Power Sleeve and Bracer on that, bringing us to 25 PA and 75 Brave. Now fists do 450 damage, Rune Blade does 350 damage, Kiku does 306 damage, and Slasher can do 500 damage, when it's feels like it. Again, that's without Martial Arts figured in.

I really don't like innates that directly effect damage or negate major defenses(Concentrate) because it's abusable to being stacked. Having things like Duel Wield and Double Hand on units that other wise have decent survivability for free really unbalances things, leading to classes with High Damage and High Life. Meanwhile, classes that were built for offense like the Wizard and classes that were built for High Life like the Knight get left in the dust. If a class is going to have a innate, it should be something that just gives them utility, like Equip Change and Throw Item. And just because they learn the skill, doesn't mean they should have it as an innate. Wizards don't have Magic Attack Up as an innate, Geomancers don't have Attack Up as an innate, Ninjas shouldn't have Duel Wield as an innate, why should Monks have Martial Arts as an innate? They'll still have a variety of ranged and AoE attacks at their disposal and the ability to heal HP, MP and Status, Revive, and still can do some hefty damage with their fists. They'll still be a very viable class without MA. They'll just won't be able to one shot/drop to critical humans anymore.

Something like that shouldn't come down to physical vs. magical.

Well having high life and low damage isn't so bad. While they can't deal a lot of damage now, they can still end up dealing lots of damage over a period of time because they can survive.

But, if it really that necessary, the solution is quite simple.

Solution 1: Give Wizards a spell that uses F_MA*Y formula, but does Physical Damage instead and give Knights (or Squires) an attack that uses PA*WP or SP*WP, but does Magical Damage instead. Probably not what you want, but I think it's an excellent idea anyways.

Solution 2: Dancers lose evasion and maybe 1 move and lose some speed, maybe give them Rods and Staves, but keep their high ass PA. There, a Physical class that has low life, but high damage. Then, make Bards lose their high MA, give them a shield, maybe armor, maybe Sticks and books, better HP, same speed and move, better MP. There, a Magical class that has high life, but low damage.

A Knight should be a low damage, high life physical unit, while a Ninja should be a high damage, low life physical unit. On the magic spectrum, a Priest should be low damage, high life, and a Wizard should be high damage, low life.

Well, Ninjas aren't supposed to be a high damage/low life unit. Yes, they have low HP, but they got high speed, high evasion and a decent ranged attack, so they can easily play keep away. Ninjas are only high damage because of that accursed innate Two Swords. If it weren't for Two Swords, they would actually be low in damage output. They may not tank, but they can stay alive, so they still count as having "high life". Priests also aren't a high life/low damage unit. They may have slightly better HP and speed then the Wizard, but they have crap evade, low move, have decent speed, but not enough for it to really count (not to mention too much speed is a determent to Magic classes) only ranged attack leaves them wide open and takes forever to charge, and can't really tank. Low life unit. High damage? Technically yes. They may not deal damage most of the time (except Holy), but they do revive effectively, buff, and (in theory) heal very well so they count as having "high damage".

Except that they're both Reaction abilities. And a broken setup like that is the reason why you can never have two activate at the same time, or even set two.

I think I just got served again.

Quoted for relevancy

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

Why do I never realize these things until it's too late?

Does anyone else feel that there should be some more reactions like regenerator that give protect or shell, or randomly gives you one of several good status effects when you're attacked?

I think I could produce something like that, by modifying Counter Tackle/Dash to randomly give me one of several good status effects.

The opposite, Counter random bad status, seems doable to.  Did anyone ever verify if gilgame heart references steal gil?

I was thinking about how to bring NPCs up to speed.  I already playtested a patch I made where I removed Gained JP/EXP UP and Move-Get JP/EXP and reduced all ability costs to 2/3.  I was surprised that every enemy had better skills, but it makes sense, because the enemy will never use Gained XX UP or Move Get XX.  It's a player only advantage.  Anyways, why not give NPCs Gained XX UP and Move-Get XX in their NPC classes?  Learnable, not inherent.  Along with JP costs cut to 2/3, it should make Cloud less of a pain.

Why do so many early classes get really good reactions, while bard and dancer get cheesed with A Save and MA Save?  Doesn't A Save belong on Squire?  MA on Wizard, Faith Up on Priest, and Brave Up on Monk?  Speaking of Monk, why the hell does he have 3 very useful reactions?  If anyone needs hamedo, it's Thief.  Squire needs counter.

Lancer needs speed save.

I agree with you guys that Attack/Defense/Whatever UP and Concentrate and a lot of other R/S/M's make a lot of other R/S/M's obsolete.  Teleport, anyone?

Change List
Sunken State ->- Protect?
Caution ->- Shell?  Need to change the trigger too.
MP Restore -> Restore MP as you take damage.  Or deal damage.  Or something.
Distribute ->

Cheese List
Weapon Guard?  Just because there aren't any mage weapons with great evasion.
Abandon -> Super cheese power
Blade Grasp -> is so broken I think I'll make it Malak Only.
Attack/Defense/Magic Attack/Magic Defense UP -> requires no stratagy, causes no penalty.  What they need is a penalty:  boost defense at the expense of offense, offense for defense.  Even then, they're still broken.
Concentrate -> Broken  Maybe it should be weapon specific?
Martial Arts -> definately broken.  Maybe make it change the formula of another weapon, or make it screw around with weapon formulas?  Have it switch all instances of PA with MA, and vice versa?
Maintenance -> Should be a reaction.  Evade breaks & steal according to brave.  Why?  Because it makes equip change obsolete.
Teleport-> needs a penalty/more limitations.
Ignore height
Float -> better than any water-related ability
Fly

Hrm List
Meatbone Slash -> Reis, or A mage with high HP?  A class that doesn't usually do good damage?

Useless/Obsolete List
Move+1 or 2
Jump+anything.  There aren't enough levels with high buildings or big gaps, and ignore height, fly, and teleport are better.
Any weather
Any Ground
Anything water - not enough battles with lots of impassible water.
move on lava


Idea:  Change Martial Arts so it replaces PA with MA in the standard Fist formula.  Two words: Battle Mage.

[Eat_an_Octorok]

Well there's still mantles...

Which also hurt magic.

Which is why I think Cure magic should heal by percentage, rather than it's current Faith_MA*X formula.

Items would make more sense for being percent based. Hi Potions go out of style quickly, and Elixirs are hard to get. Same with Ethers. Magic healing needs a bigger boost to it's formula and more range than just a cross shape with barely any vertical tolerance.

In my experience, low faith is major deal breaker. Haste and Raise/Raise 2 are a main staple of my strategy for FFT throughout the whole game, right up to the final boss. Yeah, 3 spells make me avoid low faith units. Go figure.

Ramza does decently for a Haste replacement, and Draw Out skill with Haste works too. Raise and Raise 2 are a waste of time to me. Bringing someone back with Phoenix Down puts AI in retard mode, where they'll only use an attack to try and finish you off, making them Hamedo bait.

Ninjas shouldn't have Duel Wield as an innate, why should Monks have Martial Arts as an innate?

Really it's for the sake of variety. Take away some class' innates, and they just become a class who's sole purpose is to pick up the skills, and put them on a better class. FFT's combat system doesn't quite have enough variables to make every class unique without them having an innate. I mean, why would anyone use a Chemist if they didn't have Throw Item innate? It would be better if every class used their own default moveset better than someone who's setting it as a secondary, or had some kind of perk for being in the class the skillset belongs to.

Solution 1: Give Wizards a spell that uses F_MA*Y formula, but does Physical Damage instead and give Knights (or Squires) an attack that uses PA*WP or SP*WP, but does Magical Damage instead. Probably not what you want, but I think it's an excellent idea anyways.

Solution 2: Dancers lose evasion and maybe 1 move and lose some speed, maybe give them Rods and Staves, but keep their high ass PA. There, a Physical class that has low life, but high damage. Then, make Bards lose their high MA, give them a shield, maybe armor, maybe Sticks and books, better HP, same speed and move, better MP. There, a Magical class that has high life, but low damage.

The idea I would prefer would be having every class in the physical and magical be on a different level of damage to life ratio. Something like Knight should be on the far end of the life spectrum, and on the low end of damage, where something like Ninja should be the opposite. A good in between would be like Samurai. For magic, maybe chage a Priest to be high life, low damage (and take Holy away from them) while a far advanced magic class like Calculator should be at the opposite end of the spectrum. A good in between would be an Oracle. Skillsets would need to be modified to accommodate this, however.

And I know that in the real game, Priests aren't high life or anything, but I was referring my preferred style, not how they actually have it set up.

(Anything related to two reaction skills at once.

Bad idea. There's a reason you only get one reaction skill. Even giving Weapon Guard as an innate to everyone is too much. If you guys figure out how to unflag two working at the same time, then Abandon with everyone having Weapon Guard innate would create ridiculous evade for everyone. Counter and Counter Magic at the same time would make you stupid hard to strike with anything without feeling reparations. Hamedo + Arrow Guard means it's suicide to try and attack you, especially if you change Arrow Guard to work on guns too. With MP Switch and MP Restore, if you're in critical HP, you're nearly impossible to bring down.

Does anyone else feel that there should be some more reactions like regenerator that give protect or shell, or randomly gives you one of several good status effects when you're attacked?

Unless they're giving multiple good/bad stats at once, those skills are largely useless. The point of a reaction ability is to keep you alive longer more than anything. That's why Blade Grasp, Hamedo, Abandon, Critical Quick, and HP Restore are usually the skill of choice. One good stat/one ailment isn't going to help much unless you get a lucky Haste/Stone, or Quick/Dead.

I was thinking about how to bring NPCs up to speed. I already playtested a patch I made where I removed Gained JP/EXP UP and Move-Get JP/EXP and reduced all ability costs to 2/3. I was surprised that every enemy had better skills, but it makes sense, because the enemy will never use Gained XX UP or Move Get XX. It's a player only advantage. Anyways, why not give NPCs Gained XX UP and Move-Get XX in their NPC classes? Learnable, not inherent. Along with JP costs cut to 2/3, it should make Cloud less of a pain.

Removing Gained Anything Up is stupid in my opinion. No one wants to sit there using Accumulate or Berserk Frogs for hours on end. FFT's JP system needs cost cuts all around. We went through the trouble of getting a billion JP for ever class when we were 12 and this game just came out. Considering that anyone playing FFT 1.3 or other variations has probably gathered enough JP in their lifetime to master every class five times over, we don't need to incorporate stupid high JP restrictions anymore. Make the enemies have more skills earlier, and slash JP costs across the board. Gets the same job done without the need for stupid Berserked frogs.If you want to limit class availability, put a level limit on them instead of crazy JP requirements. Levels come easy, and it's not unthinkable to gain like 2-3 levels for a few fights vs. running the game 10 hours with stupid frogs.

Also, NPCs are good enough as it is. They really need no help. The only person who needs maybe a little tweaking is Mustadio, and anything you do would need to be minor at best, like giving Engineer innate Throw Items.

Why do so many early classes get really good reactions, while bard and dancer get cheesed with A Save and MA Save? Doesn't A Save belong on Squire? MA on Wizard, Faith Up on Priest, and Brave Up on Monk? Speaking of Monk, why the hell does he have 3 very useful reactions? If anyone needs hamedo, it's Thief. Squire needs counter.

1.3 removed Brave and Faith modification, so that's not an issue. And if you don't see the use of A Save and MA save, then we need to talk. Don't forget you can hit your own people to trigger reaction skills. Throw Stone has a purpose you know...

I agree with you guys that Attack/Defense/Whatever UP and Concentrate and a lot of other R/S/M's make a lot of other R/S/M's obsolete. Teleport, anyone?

The game's limitations of giving you crappy skills that get phased out later is part of the RPG archetype. It goes on the system that you get the sweet stuff later on when you've worked hard for it. Of course the idea doesn't jive so well when you're trying to make a balanced SRPG, as you just create crappy classes and throw away skills like that. The system works better if when you get that sweet stuff later on, the sweetness also backtracks to your older skills from the beginning to make them sweeter.

Sunken State ->- Protect?
Caution ->- Shell? Need to change the trigger too.
MP Restore -> Restore MP as you take damage. Or deal damage. Or something.
Distribute ->

Sunken State does kind of suck now, but you get one free hit with 100% accuracy from it at least. Still not worth being a reaction skill dedicated to it. Protect wouldn't be too bad, but there's still easily better options.

Caution doing Shell would be even more lame. It should halve all incoming damage if it wants to have some purpose over Abandon.

If MP Restore triggered outside of critical, you'll be finding a lot more people using Throw Stone again...

As for Distribute, try making an entire team with Distribute and have a Bard or two do his healing song. You'll see it in a whole new light.

Cheese List
Weapon Guard? Just because there aren't any mage weapons with great evasion.
Abandon -> Super cheese power
Blade Grasp -> is so broken I think I'll make it Malak Only.
Attack/Defense/Magic Attack/Magic Defense UP -> requires no stratagy, causes no penalty. What they need is a penalty: boost defense at the expense of offense, offense for defense. Even then, they're still broken.
Concentrate -> Broken Maybe it should be weapon specific?
Martial Arts -> definately broken. Maybe make it change the formula of another weapon, or make it screw around with weapon formulas? Have it switch all instances of PA with MA, and vice versa?
Maintenance -> Should be a reaction. Evade breaks & steal according to brave. Why? Because it makes equip change obsolete.
Teleport-> needs a penalty/more limitations.
Ignore height
Float -> better than any water-related ability
Fly

Weapon Guard is just fine. All you really need to do is change the evade rates on said problem weapon to fix anything.

Abandon requires a dedicated setup to it at least. It's not bad, and you need a good mantle to make it perfect.

All the X Up has the penalty of taking away your Support ability slot. You're not getting those skills off of anything else. At most you could just scale down the increase. Think of Attack Up vs Equip Armor or Shield. You're giving up some good options by opting to set it.

Concentrate is there to make evade not be the end all stat. For a good example of what happens when you don't incorporate a skill like this, look at Fire Emblem and any class with high Speed and Luck. Plus you're again giving up your Support slot.

Equip Change > Maintenance. Yeah, your stuff can be broken/stole without it, but Equip Change gives you versatility. You can swap gear in the heat of combat, and give yourself a whole new setup of equipment to tackle a new situation. And if your stuff breaks, re-equip it.

Teleport has a good enough penalty. An extra 10% chance of failure for every panel above your move you try to move past is a risky trade off. Some people prefer Move + 3 for a guaranteed chance to get where they need to get. A unit with 3 base move trying to move 7 spaces that someone with Move + 3 and shoes has a 60% chance of actually making that move vs. 100%. Which odds do you prefer when a moment is critical?

Ignore Height is situationaly useful. You'll only have it for certain maps, then be done with it. Plus, you're giving up your Movement skill for this, when there are plenty of cooler options.

As yourself, how many times you set Float on a movement skill slot vs. casting it since it lasts the entire battle?

Fly is just a different flavor of Teleport and Ignore Height. It's a mesh up of the skills, with trade offs from each. It's just fine, and usually never gets used anyway.

Meatbone Slash -> Reis, or A mage with high HP? A class that doesn't usually do good damage?

*cough*gunuser*cough* Needs critical HP to activate. It's a fair trade off considering you need to leave yourself nearly dead, and evading a hit won't trigger it.

Useless/Obsolete List
Move+1 or 2
Jump+anything. There aren't enough levels with high buildings or big gaps, and ignore height, fly, and teleport are better.
Any weather
Any Ground
Anything water - not enough battles with lots of impassible water.
move on lava

These all go back to that RPG mechanic of the rewards system. They are all pretty crappy though.

Idea: Change Martial Arts so it replaces PA with MA in the standard Fist formula. Two words: Battle Mage.

That just gives you even less of a reason to use magic.