Insurance companies report future increases in costs...

[Vanya]

NO SHIT!
Yeah, the greedy fucks say that costs for the privately insured will go up by thousands of dollars a year per household under the Bacchus bill.

So the fucking assholes who are primarily responsible for price hikes and dropping coverage are basically threatening to raise rates. If this isn't an argument for a public option to help control these greedy fucks I don't know what is. You see it seems  the Bacchus bill basically dropped all the parts that would force people to buy private insurance. So since they aren't going to be getting guaranteed profit they got pissed.

These are the same fucks that in Iowa or Ohio or something actually refused to insure a baby because the kid weighed too much. This is the kind of bullshit these greedy fucking shitheads pull when they have weak regulations and basically no competition. I mean what the fuck? How the fuck is a baby un-insurable?

Obama said in his speech to congress that insurance executive are not bad people. I beg to differ. They are scum of the earth. These fuckers profit off the sickness and death of people. Tens of thousands die because insurance companies cut or drop their coverage every year. What the fuck is it going to take to make people say "no, enough is enough"?

Don't people realize that Medicare is crap partially because of the billions of dollars that insurance companies suck out of the system? Yes people, your insurance costs so much so that some fucking asshole executive can have a million dollar home and a second yacht. People are dropped from their insurance so these fuckers can live well beyond their basic needs. Your family dies so some fucking dick that does nothing more than sit behind a desk and bark orders can earn 1000 times more than his employees. Where the hell is the justice? These fuck need to be thrown in prison or worse. And it's not just the executives; the employees are to blame as well. These people should the courage and dignity to do something other than work for people that are for all intents and purposes evil. Stock holders should be ashamed as well.

[philsov]

The individual mandate would force every American to buy approved insurance, or face an IRS-enforced penalty of up to $3,800 per family, writes Linda Halderman, M.D. (American Thinker 9/17/09). Or perhaps it would be only $1,900, since the Committee accepted amendments by Sen. Schumer (D-NY) and Sen. Snowe (R-ME).

Of course rates are going to come up. That's how insurance works.

Here's a very simplified example. Say, statistically, that 5% of people ages 24-29 will get a major medical procedure, emergency or not, over the course of the year. Said prodecure averages $10,000. Since the purpose of the insurance company is to make money, the rates for people ages 24-29 are going to be at least $500 a year.

By including people who statistically are more prone to larger medical bills -- smokers, the obese, etc, this means the total amount of money spent by the insurance to the hospital/doctor/whatever will increase, and that cost gets passed onto the consumer. Now 10% of the group gets prodecures averaging $15,000? Rates just tripled.

The whole system could stand to be cheaper, from medical school to doctor's wages to the insurance companies.  But it's not like a lot of other services where you can simply not buy it because its too expensive and bring the equilibrium down.  People are willing to pay a LOT for good health.

and quite frankly in this economy if my choices were work for Humana or NOT EAT, I'd easily check my moral sense at the door.

[Vanya]

The American people should be more willing to make the choice to not eat over abandoning their morals.
People, btw, are not paying a lot for good health, they're paying a lot for the illusion of good health. The fact of the matter is that we pay more money for health care than most 1st world countries but have nothing to show for it. It wouldn't be that way if the system we have were about people's health and not about profit.

And I have to correct you about something:

...the purpose of the insurance company is to MORE make money...

Making money is fine. Even not-for-profit organizations are allowed to make 12% profit. But all that the big corporations want is bigger and bigger profits. It's like making a modest profit is no longer acceptable; it's looked down on even. Hospitals are run this way. Pharmaceutical corporations (read: ass pirates) and pharmacies are run this way. Hell, pharmacies aren't even allowed to lower their prices on penalty of revoked licenses. When did it become such a terrible thing to just do enough to keep up with your business. Growth is now the primary force behind inflation. Every chance a company gets to raise prices they do, but when they do something to lower costs the consumer doesn't get much or any benefit from it.

Here's a silly example. I go to McDonald's and order an extra slice of cheese. It costs me 40 cents. Why? If I buy a pack of sliced cheese at the store each slice come out to about a dime. Why the fuck do they have make 400%+ profit on cheese? Do they give me a credit if I ask for no lettuce? Fuck no!

That's how most companies do it. If they can get away with higher prices then fuck the consumer. If they can save money with more efficient equipment, fuck the consumer too. Even that wouldn't be a problem if it was across the board and all the employees got a piece of the profit. No, they have to go and fuck the employees too. They give the managers/CEOs more money so that they'll crack that whip harder on the grunt and the grunts get exactly dick. Companies have to provide insurance to their full time employees, so the just make all the grunts minimum wage part-timers. So they get away with not having to provide health insurance by making you work 34 hours instead of 35+. Nice, well fuck that.

Money and greed has gotten into everything now a days. Why the fuck are for-profit lobbyists even fucking legal? That's fucking bullshit! Now the insurance companies, not satisfied with the billions they basically steal from the health care system, are issuing a poorly veiled threat about raising costs. Well fuck them! The employees of these companies should band together. They should put their feet down and strike for the preservation of moral business practices. People are all too willing to strike or go find another job if they aren't getting paid enough. A person might have to choose between eating and working for a greedy asshole, but a band of people can help each other to pull through. I think aside from natural disasters where people are forced to do this, they have largely forgotten that they have this power.

I shit you not, if everyone banded together and refused to pay their credit bills until companies bring interest rates down and practices to a fair level they would fix their shit real fast. Businesses live and die based on consumer trends. We can use that power and it saddens me that more people don't use it.

[Archael]

Of course rates are going to come up. That's how insurance works.

Here's a very simplified example. Say, statistically, that 5% of people ages 24-29 will get a major medical procedure, emergency or not, over the course of the year. Said prodecure averages $10,000. Since the purpose of the insurance company is to make money, the rates for people ages 24-29 are going to be at least $500 a year.

By including people who statistically are more prone to larger medical bills -- smokers, the obese, etc, this means the total amount of money spent by the insurance to the hospital/doctor/whatever will increase, and that cost gets passed onto the consumer. Now 10% of the group gets prodecures averaging $15,000? Rates just tripled.

The whole system could stand to be cheaper, from medical school to doctor's wages to the insurance companies.  But it's not like a lot of other services where you can simply not buy it because its too expensive and bring the equilibrium down.  People are willing to pay a LOT for good health.

and quite frankly in this economy if my choices were work for Humana or NOT EAT, I'd easily check my moral sense at the door.

I cannot conceptualize a viable solution to this problem

[philsov]

The fact of the matter is that we pay more money for health care than most 1st world countries but have nothing to show for it

And you think the insurance companies are to blame for the overweight and unhealthy masses?  

Here's a silly example. I go to McDonald's and order an extra slice of cheese. It costs me 40 cents. Why?

Because that's the max profit cap.  If they dropped the price 25% (10 cents), the sales on cheese don't increase 25%.  Were it 50 cents, sales drop.  Either way, the problem is every consumer that accepts 40 cents, if there is even a problem in the first place.   This is economics 101.

Do they give me a credit if I ask for no lettuce? Fuck no!

Yet you still support mcdonalds?  fuck yes!

That's how most companies do it. If they can get away with higher prices then fuck the consumer. If they can save money with more efficient equipment, fuck the consumer too. Even that wouldn't be a problem if it was across the board and all the employees got a piece of the profit. No, they have to go and fuck the employees too. They give the managers/CEOs more money so that they'll crack that whip harder on the grunt and the grunts get exactly dick.

Money and greed has gotten into everything now a days. Why the fuck are for-profit lobbyists even fucking legal? That's fucking bullshit! Now the insurance companies, not satisfied with the billions they basically steal from the health care system, are issuing a poorly veiled threat about raising costs. Well fuck them! The employees of these companies should band together. They should put their feet down and strike for the preservation of moral business practices.

Hello uncited, unfounded, and possibly incorrect sweeping generalization!  How do you do?

I shit you not, if everyone banded together and refused to pay their credit bills until companies bring interest rates down and practices to a fair level they would fix their shit real fast. Businesses live and die based on consumer trends. We can use that power and it saddens me that more people don't use it.

Let me get this right.  PEOPLE spend more money than they have, with an agreed upon interest rate, and somehow it's the COMPANY'S FAULT when the people are in debt?  If the rates are too high, don't spend more money than you actually have, idiot.  Refusal to pay a bill you owe is just throwing a temper tantrum, and illegal.

I cannot conceptualize a viable solution to this problem

You break down the groups into smaller ones.  For example, with my insurance if you get a physical and check out well under a variety of parameters (blood pressure, cholesterol, etc), your rates are about half the normal rate, because *drumroll* you're half as likely to need medical care in the first place.  As for the overpriced hospital/doctor care, that's really just a result of the market itself.  It's that high because people still pay for it, and it's not something like mcdonalds where you can just not get it.

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

If the rates are too high, don't spend more money than you actually have, idiot.

Word.  And if you want something that cost more than you have, save up, THEN buy it.

[dwib]

The American people should be more willing to make the choice to not eat over abandoning their morals.

Personal responsibility is the root of the whole problem anyway. Same goes with a lot of other problems recently. How about that mortgage crisis? It was caused by people who bought houses they couldn't afford because they figured they'd take out huge ass loans. Now insurance is crazy because people expect doctors to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves. If people were responsible we never would have needed to bail out all those companies and if people were responsible we may not even be discussing government healthcare right now. It could happen and work great because I wouldn't be paying for fat people to get bypass surgeries or it wouldn't happen at all because insurance would be reasonable.

People are stupid.

[DarthPaul]

people who bought houses they couldn't afford because they figured they'd take out huge ass loans.

Umm, tell me good sir what percent of people you believe are capable of buying a house.

Even a doctor would have to pay a years salary to buy a modest abode.

Those loans are not the inherent problem it is the way the loans where handled by the clients and the banks.

I wouldn't be paying for fat people to get bypass surgeries

Bypass surgeries are only done when the person in question cannot lose weight. The only other option for them is death.

My mom had to get a bypass because she has hypothyroidism. The problem you should have is the people who get a bypass and lose weight just to gain it all back.

[Vanya]

And you think the insurance companies are to blame for the overweight and unhealthy masses?

I never said the masses weren't to blame as well. Of course they are. I doesn't change the facts about insurance companies having unfair and down right immoral practices.

Because that's the max profit cap.  If they dropped the price 25% (10 cents), the sales on cheese don't increase 25%.  Were it 50 cents, sales drop.  Either way, the problem is every consumer that accepts 40 cents, if there is even a problem in the first place.   This is economics 101.

That doesn't make it right, though the consumers that accept it are also part of the problem.

Yet you still support mcdonalds?  fuck yes!

I don't, and if you do... eww. That crap food will kill you.

Hello uncited, unfounded, and possibly incorrect sweeping generalization!  How do you do?

Generalized, yes. I'll give you that. But some of it is bald-faced and in plain sight. Also, I don't have to cite opinion.

Let me get this right.  PEOPLE spend more money than they have, with an agreed upon interest rate, and somehow it's the COMPANY'S FAULT when the people are in debt?  If the rates are too high, don't spend more money than you actually have, idiot.  Refusal to pay a bill you owe is just throwing a temper tantrum, and illegal.

Again. While people are responsible for fucking themselves over, it doesn't make it right for companies to take advantage. Most of the time the agreed upon rate is the same everywhere. People don't get much of a choice. It was companies that created bullshit variable rates and it was companies that made it seem like a better deal when they knew it was only a better deal for their profit margin. If companies aren't to blame then I suppose it would be perfectly ok for them to also take advantage of the mentally retarded and children.

You break down the groups into smaller ones.  For example, with my insurance if you get a physical and check out well under a variety of parameters (blood pressure, cholesterol, etc), your rates are about half the normal rate, because *drumroll* you're half as likely to need medical care in the first place.

I agree with that as a model for a good insurance company.

[dwib]

Umm, tell me good sir what percent of people you believe are capable of buying a house.

Even a doctor would have to pay a years salary to buy a modest abode.

Those loans are not the inherent problem it is the way the loans where handled by the clients and the banks.

i figured it was obvious most people don't just directly BUY houses, but you know what i mean. and yes it is the client's fault because they shouldn't take out loans they can't pay back, which is what a lot of people did.

Bypass surgeries are only done when the person in question cannot lose weight. The only other option for them is death.

My mom had to get a bypass because she has hypothyroidism. The problem you should have is the people who get a bypass and lose weight just to gain it all back.

i believe the point of my argument was about people who are irresponsible with their health (or more generally, irresponsible people altogether) bad example on my part i guess.

To sum everything I'm saying despite bad examples : People who are irresponsible with their money, health, or other things (parenting, for example) cause most of these problems we are all upset about.

[Vanya]

i figured it was obvious most people don't just directly BUY houses, but you know what i mean. and yes it is the client's fault because they shouldn't take out loans they can't pay back, which is what a lot of people did.

Yeah, but it already came out that a large number of people were approved when banks knew damn well they couldn't pay the mortgage just so they could make money until it defaulted. Who's more evil, the idiot that doesn't know he'll drown, or the jerk that leads him to the lake knowing he'll do it?

To sum everything I'm saying despite bad examples : People who are irresponsible with their money, health, or other things (parenting, for example) cause most of these problems we are all upset about.

But the people that take advantage of that are equally to blame. How are they any more responsible than the irresponsible twits they use. Take either of them out of the equation and thing s balance out. Both ends need to be fixed.

And the people that didn't speak up about it are cowards. If everyone joined together and called their bosses out on it what were their companies going to do? Fire everyone in retaliation? I think not.

[dwib]

Yeah, but it already came out that a large number of people were approved when banks knew damn well they couldn't pay the mortgage just so they could make money until it defaulted. Who's more evil, the idiot that doesn't know he'll drown, or the jerk that leads him to the lake knowing he'll do it?

last time i checked bill clinton encouraged the approving of more loans by the banks during his presidency because it definitely boosted the economy and standard of living... just not in the long-term. of course it is hard to anticipate a total meltdown like that so i'm not blaming President Clinton

[Vanya]

You're right a lot of politicians on both sides had a lot to do with it. But this sort of thing has happened many times in the past, just not to this bad a degree until now. If the people in power were paying attention and/or not been greedy this could have been avoided. But that seems to be how society has functioned for a while now. It's bullshit and people should have been intelligent and compassionate enough to figure it out. Now they need to be courageous enough to do something about it. So I say we should find a way to stick it to the companies that fuck with our lives and ignore who might end up out on the street or dead.

Take that retarded insurance company that denied a 4 month old baby coverage, the moment his parents got on the news they turned that decision right the fuck around. If they didn't try to fuck that family over in order to save a buck they wouldn't have had their name plastered all over the national news services. Now they're gonna take a big hit when ppl drop them for another company and rightly so.

[Kaijyuu]

All Vanya's trying to say I think is that companies aren't blameless for trying to make as much of a profit as possible. You can't ignore people who manipulate economics when talking about economic issues. Because I don't know enough about current issues, I won't say where and how these people negatively affect their customers, but I will say the government stepping in and stopping certain things can be a good thing. See: anti-trust legislation.

[Dominic NY18]

Personal responsibility is the root of the whole problem anyway. Same goes with a lot of other problems recently. How about that mortgage crisis? It was caused by people who bought houses they couldn't afford because they figured they'd take out huge ass loans.

The mortgage crisis? The crisis involving people buying what they couldn't afford because they thought they could either share in the "American Dream" more quickly or to make a quick buck and banks and other financial institutions making irresponsible loans to those people that end up causing them financial issues? If you're going to bring up personal responsibility, then you should at least mention how it goes both ways.

Now insurance is crazy because people expect doctors to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves. If people were responsible we never would have needed to bail out all those companies and if people were responsible we may not even be discussing government healthcare right now. It could happen and work great because I wouldn't be paying for fat people to get bypass surgeries or it wouldn't happen at all because insurance would be reasonable.

People are stupid.

So you're saying insurance is expensive just because "people expect doctors to take care of them?" What exactly are you saying when you say that?

[DarthPaul]

So you're saying insurance is expensive just because "people expect doctors to take care of them?" What exactly are you saying when you say that?

I'm not entirely sure what he meant there either, but I will say cancer doesn't fix itself to any degree.

[philsov]

If companies aren't to blame [for high interest rates] then I suppose it would be perfectly ok for them to also take advantage of the mentally retarded and children.

I'm... not understanding the analogy.  Adults, able to read, work, and comprehend what the word interest means, possibly with the help of a four-function calculator, agree to a contract and then bitch and moan when MATH OCCURRED is a completely different thing, by an order of magnitude, to doing the same to someone who can't read, work, or do basic math.  The former is stupid, the latter is ignorant.

[Vanya]

Just because someone is uninformed, unwise, or just plain stupid doesn't make it right to knowingly take advantage of them. It's no better than taking advantage of someone who is ignorant for reasons outside their control.

[philsov]

Just because someone is uninformed, unwise, or just plain stupid doesn't make it right to knowingly take advantage of them

Sure it does. If I want to charge $100 for a peanut butter jelly sandwich, that's my choice.  I have every right to charge as much as I want for any service I perform.  If someone agrees to buy it for that much, that's their choice.  I just made $99 off some poor schmuck.  Go capitalism.

[Dominic NY18]

Philsov, you're saying the problem with healthcare costs is primarily people willingly paying too much for insurance?