What I've been trying to say all along

[Archael]

I never said that human beings cannot function without religion. Where did you get that?


And I don't "provide covers." I do not defend what people sometimes do in the name of religion. I don't defend 9/11, or the crusades, or the salem witch trials, or whatever else you can think of.

I know you don't, I was just rambling

Let's play a mad lib here:

seeing good coming without _______

and then seeing harm that comes specifically from _______

Replace with these for example: religion, government, police, the internet, journalism, capitalism, socialism, industry.

Just because it can fit in the model, doesn't mean that it is wrong.

just because it can fit the model doesn't mean we will not be better off without it

like I said to philsov, don't try to make this about x system, religion is in question here, not government, the police, the internet, journalism, capitalism, socialism, or industry

trying to substitute something else for religion will not suddenly make the problem posed by religion go away or irrelevant

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

I'm merely applying your logic to others systems in the world.

[Archael]

I'm merely applying your logic to others systems in the world.

I know what you're trying to do, but other systems in the world have positives / negatives which although are influenced by the good / evil intentions of human beings, they are not based on superstitious beliefs in invisible men in the sky

or on the beliefs that there is a life after this one

or on the belief that your people are somehow chosen by god and everyone else is not

you know the drift

religion is a little different than most other systems

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

But that is not what you were arguing.  You were arguing the that religion's bad outweighed it's good.  I'm trying to make the point that any system created by man will be flawed.  Meaning that your problem is with man, not religion.

The plausibility of religious beliefs being true is a different argument, worth talking about, but not the argument that you or the video brought up.

[Archael]

But that is not what you were arguing.  You were arguing the that religion's bad outweighed it's good.  I'm trying to make the point that any system created by man will be flawed.  Meaning that your problem is with man, not religion.

any system created by man is indeed flawed

religion is just one I believe we could really, really do without

but I don't want to get rid of man

I want to get rid of religion so that men can improve themselves further


my problem is with religion, don't try to mince words

[DarthPaul]

so just admit it, you made a very stupid statement on FFH

Ask anyone I admit when I am wrong and when I make a mistake. I don't believe in pride in oneself, which is my salvation from becoming a self-centered prick.

That being said I still don't believe you took everything in I think you saw that sentence and thought "ah hah this idiot is on [i[my[/i] FFH!"

Look at the post again. Don't be shy. It won't bite.

Scientists are today what holymen where back then.

Except holymen took everything on "devotion" and did not try to find a logical answer to their problems.


"Why haven't we flown into the heavens yet? Uhh well uhhh god keeps us firmly placed on the ground....yeah that's it.

Maybe the joke is too high brow for you. Or maybe it does suck, but do you honestly think I believe that a nuclear physicist could become the Pope?

You can't just discard what you don't want to see. For when you do that you are a chaos theorist. Someone who does nothing to better the human race and only causes problems. Have a nice day.

[Archael]

Scientists are today what holymen where back then.

Except holymen took everything on "devotion" and did not try to find a logical answer to their problems.

the differences between scientists and holymen do not end on one of them taking everything on "devotion" or one of them seeking logical answers

this isn't a joke

it's a stupid statement

most statements with "scientists" "are" "what" "holymen" "where" (which by the way is spelled were, not where) are usually stupid

[Redux]

Voldemort, do you believe that scientific pursuit is not everything? That society must fraw a line at scientific research for the basis of morality? There are some in this world who think the only way for human thriving is through unethical and or all-out research, not matter the cost. That i cannot agree with. You are right on the idea that religion can be removed without to much of a negative impact. But a question if you would be so kind. Could you name a moral code back in ancient time that had nothing to do with religion or wasn't used in religious subtext?

[DarthPaul]

so just admit it, you made a very stupid statement on FFH

Ask anyone I admit when I am wrong and when I make a mistake. I don't believe in pride in oneself, which is my salvation from becoming a self-centered prick.

That being said I still don't believe you took everything in I think you saw that sentence and thought "ah hah this idiot is on my FFH!"

Look at the post again. Don't be shy. It won't bite.

Scientists are today what holymen where back then.

Except holymen took everything on "devotion" and did not try to find a logical answer to their problems.


"Why haven't we flown into the heavens yet? Uhh well uhhh St. Ajora keeps us firmly placed on the ground....yeah that's it.

Maybe the joke is too high brow for you. Or maybe it does suck, but do you honestly think I believe that a nuclear physicist could become the Pope?

You can't just discard what you don't want to see. For when you do that you are a chaos theorist. Someone who does nothing to better the human race and only causes problems. Have a nice day.

Not saying I don't agree with the post, but I don't even remember posting this.

[Archael]

You are right on the idea that religion can be removed without to much of a negative impact.

I support this

Voldemort, do you believe that scientific pursuit is not everything? That society must fraw a line at scientific research for the basis of morality? There are some in this world who think the only way for human thriving is through unethical and or all-out research, not matter the cost.

not this

Could you name a moral code back in ancient time that had nothing to do with religion or wasn't used in religious subtext?

Hammurabi's Code

and I don't see how that question says anything about what we are discussing here

religion can and should still be removed

[philsov]

the bad that comes specifically from religion cannot [come without it]

Can you name two or three bad events in the past 100 or so years that came specifically from religion?

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

Hammurabi claimed to be the medium the gods delivered thier law through.

And you're right, your problem is with religion.  But any critiria that you have brought up to condemn religion, condemns many other world systems.

Except holymen took everything on "devotion" and did not try to find a logical answer to their problems.

Galileo Galilei - Roman Catholic Philosopher and Scientist
Isaac Newton - Unitarian Theologian and Scientist
Johannes Kepler - Lutheran Philospher and Scientist
Nicolaus Copernicus - Roman Catholic Cleric and Scientist
Claudius Ptolemais (Ptolemy) - Theologian of Greco-Roman Polytheism and Scientist

These men didn't take everything on devotion.

[Archael]

And you're right, your problem is with religion. But any critiria that you have brought up to condemn religion, condemns many other world systems.

you can adapt it to condemn other world systems, yes

my problem is still with religion

I sincerely believe we would improve as a species without it

I cannot say the same with things such as (for example) government, education, secular moral law, etc - that would be a different discussion and is unrelated to my opinions about religion

Hammurabi claimed to be the medium the gods delivered thier law through.

I don't know why this question was asked, but regardless of what Hammurabi's code is, my problem is still with religion >_>

Could you name a moral code back in ancient time that had nothing to do with religion or wasn't used in religious subtext?

but Hammurabi's Code was as secular as I could recall when it comes to the ancient world. It's a good example of a moral code which isn't based on what your god thinks

(Examples)

    1. If any one ensnares another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.

    2. If any one brings an accusation against a man, and the accused goes to the river and leaps into the river, if he sinks in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river proves that the accused is not guilty, and he escapes unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.

    3. If any one brings an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if a capital offense is charged, be put to death.

    4. If a Builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

    5. If a man give his child to a nurse and the child dies in her hands, but the nurse unbeknown to the father and mother nurses another child, then they shall convict her of having nursed another child without the knowledge of the father and mother and her breasts shall be cut off.

    6. If any one steals the minor son of another, he shall be put to death.

    7. If a man takes a woman to wife, but has no intercourse with her, this woman is no wife to him.

I would call that a secular moral code, regardless of what Hammurabi said

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

Not to embarrass others
Not to oppress the weak
Not to speak derogatorily of others
Not to take revenge
Not to bear a grudge
To repent and confess wrongdoings
Not to withhold food, clothing, and sexual relations from your wife
Not to have sexual relations with your mother  
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife  
Not to have sexual relations with your sister
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife's daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with your son's daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter's daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her son's daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter's daughter  
Not to have sexual relations with your father's sister  
Not to have sexual relations with your mother's sister  
Not to have sexual relations with your father's brother's wife  
Not to have sexual relations with your son's wife
Not to have sexual relations with your brother's wife  
Not to have sexual relations with your wife's sister
A man must not have sexual relations with an animal
A woman must not have sexual relations with an animal
Not to have sexual relations with someone else's wife
Not to break oaths or vows

I would call this a secular moral code, regardless of what Moses said.

[Archael]

yup, if you conveniently ignore the first, and probably most unique to christianity ones:

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God...

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'



religion - still got a problem with it tho

needs to go bro, regardless of the Hammurabi's Code Question, religion is still a problem for modern day society, which is why I didn't want to answer his question, so you don't get the impressions that my views will change for even a second about this, Kuraudo

to be clear: Hammurabi's Code - it doesn't change anything

any system created by man is indeed flawed

religion is just one I believe we could really, really do without

but I don't want to get rid of man

I want to get rid of religion so that men can improve themselves further


my problem is with religion, don't try to mince words

I don't know why this question was asked, but regardless of what Hammurabi's code is, my problem is still with religion >_>

so you can relax on what is and isn't a secular moral code

[Kuraudo Sutoraifu]

If you're relaxing, then I'll relax.

And I understand that your views aren't going to change.  I don't mean to be inflammitory with any of my posts, I'm just trying to post counterpoints to your points.

[Archael]

I understand

but your counterpoints aren't making excuses for the evil caused by religion, not defending religion, and not giving excuses as to why we shouldn't get rid of religion. it's almost as if you consider it to be immune to ideological scrutiny, when it is anything but

or they try to substitute religion in my argument for another, secular system



and the only thing that will do is keep forcing me clarify my stance over and over

religion is pretty damn difficult to defend nowadays, and there's a good reason for that too

uphill battle

[Xifanie]

Religion isn't bad, only theism is. Ever saw a Buddhist doing stupid/evil stuff because of his religion? The only common belief Buddhists have is reincarnation AFAIK.

Religion holds values to live with.

Theism forces those values on the people.

[Archael]

now I'm going to beat the dead horse (((XTIAN RAGE{!!!}}

one of the doctors who was plotting bombing attacks in the UK was a qualified neurosurgeon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... years.html

so you're going to tell me the problem is education, government, the internet? and not religion?

you can be a very intelligent, well educated individual and still believe in 72 virgins and paradise after death, and act based upon this belief for horrible results

this mode of thought (religion) thrives in an shell of protection - the taboo that is criticizing people's religious beliefs, that is why it's still present in modern day society


haaa haa

[philsov]

so you're going to tell me the problem is education, government, the internet? and not religion?

If you actually read the article, most of it is the judge putting words into Abdulla's mouth.  Abdulla himself denied any religious backings for the attack, and said it was because his home country had been invaded.  I'd expect a religious extremist to be, you know, religious on the matter.