Final Fantasy Hacktics

i prefer simply dummy move on lava, combining it with anyground (but no other changes to any ground than just adding in move on lava)

and use the move on lava space to create Move+1 Jump+1
,

honestly i really dont see the need to screw with all these other movement abilities. as far as Float having a weakness to wind which i requested, i think that makes perfect sense especially since it makes units immune to earth attacks (doesnt it?) but thats the float status and not the movement abilitiy anyway, i dont know if the game counts them the same way.

Here are my thoughts on the current movement abilities:

Any Ground: Combine with Any Weather, but element status bonuses. People probably would rarely use it, but it would make a good innate and could be useful and some specific maps. Call it All Terrain.

Any Weather: See above

Cannot Enter Water: Leave alone because it is enemy only. Though you might think about nurfing other movement abilities by making this a part of the ability, such as no flying or teleporting if you are in water.

Float: This is a weird one since it essentially just makes a status effect innate. Plus it makes Any Ground/Weather kind of pointless, not to mention walk on lava, right? I say Float should stay a status effect and this should be replaced with something else. Maybe my Push Through idea since it would give you a very basic bonus of moving past enemy units. I'm undecided on what to do with this movement ability though.

Fly: I  think it should be left alone. It can have the advantage over Teleport that any height can be reached and reducing fall damage.

Ignore Height: Definitely gets defeated by Fly, but since Fly is such a high tier ability I think it can still have a place. I would leave it. Since all the Jump movement abilities are worthless anyways this still has purpose before getting Fly.

Jump +1/3: This will seem odd, but these two are both worthless. 1 is too small of a bonus and 3 is received so late game that it is pointless and Ignore Height is already available. If you wanted to make +3 available earlier in the game maybe it would be worth while, though it would probably be better to make it +4.

Jump +2: Make it available early on like in place of +1 Jump and leave it. In the early game this skill can still be useful to archers even if later on it the game Jump bonuses are hardly ever used.

Move +1: You could give this jump bonuses in an attempt to make it more useful later on. But I think that would undermine the early game balance. Just have to accept that this is an early game skill and will have no use once Move +2 opens.

Move +2: I would still just leave it and not add a jump bonus.

Move +3: I think this is too much and should be removed. By nurfing Teleport a bit everything will be more reasonable and balanced as a whole and there aren't good ways of nurfing this. My only suggestion would be giving it a negative jump value of -1 or -2, but that seems silly.

Move in Water: First off change it to Walk on Water like Razele said. I say leave it. It can have some real uses for Geos and getting across some maps. It will never be a default movement ability but it will have it uses.

Move on Lava: This skill's greatest downfall is that there isn't enough lava in this game. If we make more maps with more lava and had the lava geomancer skill be really powerful it could have some real uses. If your character is out in the middle of a lava pit you can only be hit by ranged attacks unless an enemy also has Move on Lava right? I say leave it.

Move Underwater: This one I don't know much about. Can you not be attacked when underwater and can you take any actions underwater? It could have use as an equipable movement skill. Leave it and maybe add it to a skill set.

Move-Find Item: I'm confused, do only bobby-trapped squares have items or can any square have items? Ideally I would want this skill to only find item, but have no effect on traps. If there is an item on a trap, then get item and trigger the trap.

Move-Get Exp: Seems fine. If you wanted to increase the increments a bit you could, but I wouldn't increase it by much.

Move-Get JP: Seems fine. If you wanted to increase the increments a bit you could, but I wouldn't increase it by much.

Move-HP/MP Up: Seem fine to me. I might making a recommendation so that the amount of HP/MP gained relates to the number of steps taken. Maybe 2% of HP per panel moved. Some people complain about the MP Up trick where you can use it with MP Switch to keep it going longer, but I say that is a problem with MP Switch not this movement ability. Thus with MP Switch it should only cushion the damage the character receives and if the damage is larger than there is MP that then the character should take the remaining damage to their HP.

Silent Walk: I say with this movement skill make it so traps aren't triggered if you walk on them. This is of course if the changes to Move-Find Item I mentioned before are made. It is essentially a blank spot though so whatever people want. This was just another random idea I had for a movement skill but it sounds like what it might have originally been meant to be.

Teleport: So this is the main point of controversy. I think having it have an MP cost is an inventive idea, but I think it would nurf it too much, maybe use that for a new higher level teleport. I think lowering the success percentage outside of the normal movement area is also good, but not by too much (probably needs a bit of testing to get right). My idea for nerfing it the best is to really really limit it's vertical tolerance. Probably relate it to the characters Jump stats. This means that you would still be able to go pretty far and with no movement limitations like characters or obstacles, but that you wouldn't be able to go very high. Maybe even have the skill also subtract -1 or -2 from their jump, then calculate a decrease of success of teleports outside of the normal range in a similar way as moving outside of the normal movement area. This would make it so Fly could really compete with Teleport. Move +2 could also really compete with Teleport because it would give guaranteed increased range. Teleport would still retain it's luck aspect though which really makes it unique. Oh and I think making it so that there was a percentage success for moving to spaces within the characters normal range isn't a good idea and would totally be over nurfing the skill and make it useless.

Teleport 2: This skill is meant to be a cheap advantage to the outnumbered enemy, and is thus fine. This skill would also be super cheap to allow for player characters to have.

Walk on Water: Stupid name and it doesn't seem to do anything different or even better than Move in Water. So I think it is garbage and should be something new.

Teleport 3: This is the only other movement ability idea that I can think of right now. Make it so every square you move decrease your likelihood of success by 5%. Small but it would add up quick, maybe make it 4%. Then have every move cost the same MP regardless of the distance, maybe 5-20 MP I'm not sure. No vertical limits. So this would be a super crazy powerful ability, but with real success limitations and a steep MP cost. Not sure it is really that great but it might be interesting to think about.

I like the idea of situational buffs for some of the weaker movement skills, too.

Any Weather
Nullify all weather related penalties without removing the elemental boosts.
Give more elemental effects for each type of weather so that there's more of a reason to care about removing the elemental penalties.
Thunderstorms already boost lightning by 25% and nerf fire by 25%. Also, snowstorms boost ice by 25%. I'd think that the low temperature & falling snow during a snowstorm would be a good reason to nerf water & fire damage. Since desserts have very hot and dry weather, perhaps something could be added to dessert areas to boost fire and nerf ice & water damage. Rainstorms should boost water and nerf fire. If you want to go a little further there can be modifications for day and night, too. Night already gives an evade boost for units being attacked by arrows. Maybe this could be used to boost holy & nerf dark during the day and vice versa.

Move in Water - Move Underwater
Extra move range while moving in water sounds perfect. The only complication there may be is making sure that it doesn't apply the move bonus when moving from water on to dry land. It should also reduce or nullify all penalties for moving through water. Any Ground should have no affect on this. (Move Underwater should be the same thing, but with it's ability to treat deep water as if it was 3h deep intact.)

Any Ground
This should not have an effect on flowing water. I'd add some penalties for moving on certain terrain like sand, gravel, thick plants, snow & ice. Then I would make "Any Ground" nullify those penalties. Here's a crazy idea! Make it so ice has a chance of causing the fall event. Then "Any  Ground" can nullify that chance to fall on your butt & take damage. I'd still combine this with "Walk on Lava".

Move on Lava
Give it's normal effect to "Any Ground" then make something new with it.

QuoteRazele, somehow I don't think the MP cost thing is enough.

I don't know man, the prospect of being stuck in the middle of a battle without being able to move for a turn or two seems pretty dangerous. Plus you can set the MP cost & MP restored by items yourself.

you guys miss my post on the jumping from a cliff allows further movement...

 _
l   \
l    l
l    l             _
l    l_______l l

Realy useful here, it helps you jump off a cliff, which chances are an enemy isnt floating in mid air to prevent you from moving in the first place. your free to jump to that square way out there in the distance. move +3 can do that cause your jump attribute is still 3

same with ignore hieght. same with fly.

Although as useful as it is if you know what your doing, it is still relativly low a bonus. jump +2, jump + 4, and jump + 5, would be much more useful numbers.

EDIT: It appears when you start a line with spaces and such, it removes them...let me try and fix the image.
Edit 2: It also appears that it doesnt recognize more than 1 space inbetween things...

I noticed! And i think you're right bout that. & speaking about jumping. I think all the ignore height effects should be removed from all skills that have it. It just kills all the jump+X abilities before you ever get jump+3. I'd much rather have the increased jump values like SB suggests, but combined with the move+X skills.

It occurs to me that it may be difficult to add new move effects without overhauling the entire movement system to a degree.

Quote from: "Asmo X"There's a lot of ad hoc justification going on here to tack some gimmicks onto movement skills.

"Shouldn't Fly have an evasion bonus because it's so hard to catch something that flies?" You can justify just about anything like this. Shouldn't ignore height add evasion for the same reason? I'm sure it would be hard to hit something that could extricate themselves from a situation by jumping 50 feet into the air. Or give it immunity to wind attacks because clearly the jumper is using some sort of wind vortex to jump so high and therefore has an affinity for it. No wait, Ignore height should be vulnerable to wind attacks since the jumper depends on calm air to jump to great heights so accurately.

This is totally the wrong way to approach it. You either resolve movement skills as movement or you let them degenerate into a clusterfuck of random support-like bonuses.

Massive agreement.

In case there was any doubt, I agree with Asmo too.

Though until there are more rugged terrain maps, movement will be pretty generic, if you know what I mean.  Maybe make more canyon-type terrian in battles, and flood several maps.  More trees and walls would be cool too. Then we'll have some of those "gimmicky" abilities fixed without having to make them more gimmicky.  Too many of the "difficult" battles have little terrain diversity.

Move on Lava sucks.  Maybe if there was a sidequest in which Ramza and co. went off to fight dragons in lava land, it might be useful.  Otherwise, it should either GTFO or become an elemental support ability.

Same for Any Weather, except replace "dragons in lava land" with "zombies in turbulent marshes."  It's really more like a support ability anyway, but I'm not sure if elemental resistance is the way to go either.

Which reminds me, didn't we get a lead on changing map terrain somewhere?

Asmo and Voldemort bring a good point.
Movement ability should buff the unit's movement or relate to movement, not as pseudo-support (immunity to X, strengthen X, evasion bonus, etc)

QuoteAny Weather = Unit gains +3 Jump +3 Move when weather is Rain / Snow / Thunderstorm / whatever

3 move is enough. +3 Move and +3 Jump will make Jump+3 obsolete.
The original "Any Weather" violate the movement abilities spirit. It shouldn't reduce weather effect on magic.
That will make a Wizard that use Any Weather lost magic damage bonus.

QuoteAny Ground = Unit gains +3 speed when standing on Rocky Cliff, Stone Floor, Marshland, Swamp, Sand

Any Ground is originated from Geomancer, so it fits perfectly with their characteristic.
Instead of speed, maybe it will be more useful if the unit gain -1..4 or 0..3 movement bonus if they stand at certain terrain.
This will cause Any Ground used frequently and require more thinking.

QuoteMove in Water = Unit Gains +3 move when moving from a panel that is water

Move Underwater, Move in Water, and Walk on Water should get +3 bonus when in Water too.

QuoteMove +3: I think this is too much and should be removed. By nurfing Teleport a bit everything will be more reasonable and balanced as a whole and there aren't good ways of nurfing this. My only suggestion would be giving it a negative jump value of -1 or -2, but that seems silly.

Move+3 bonus is too big, it will make other movement abilities obsolete, so it should be for enemies only.

Move on Lava : +3 movement bonus when the unit standing on Lava.

I think the movement bonus on the different terrains is a good plan. Maybe it will have to be lower than +3 though, but it is hard for me to picture how this would actually work.

Yeah.

Movement Abilities that make you use the terrain and think about positioning are always a good thing.

It's the passive easy-to-use shit like Move +3 / Teleport that is a problem and just trumps everything else.

Perhaps you can assign some of them with the following bonuses for movement on terrain:

+ Defense when standing on terrain X

+ HP when standing on terrain X

+ Move when standing on terrain X

+ Speed when standing on terrain X

+ PA / MA when standing on terrain X

etc etc

you can even make a movement skill that turns unit transparent when in certain terrain, ie

Move in Water = Unit becomes undetectable (Transparent) when in water

or

Unit gains Haste when standing on X terrain

just throwing out ideas

Aren't you the one spear-heading the "no pseudo-support for movement abilities" thing? -_-

Adding transparent to "Move in Water" makes no sense since the units will only be up to their waist in water. It would make more sense for it to be given to "Move Underwater". And on top of that you'd be turning "Move in Water" into a pseudo-support.

QuoteThe original "Any Weather" violate the movement abilities spirit.

In that case I'd say either remove it's effect on magic modifiers or split it into a support ability.

QuoteAny Ground is originated from Geomancer, so it fits perfectly with their characteristic.
Instead of speed, maybe it will be more useful if the unit gain -1..4 or 0..3 movement bonus if they stand at certain terrain.
This will cause Any Ground used frequently and require more thinking.

But the only thing Any Ground does is negate penalties for moving through flowing water; which makes no sense. Neither does giving movement bonuses on certain terrain. If that is what you do to it then it isn't "Any Ground" anymore. It's more complex to add terrain penalties and make this negate them, but you'd keep the spirit of the ability without violating the spirit of it being a movement ability.

Besides, giving all the movement abilities a move/jump bonus kinda makes everything a little bland and shortens the lifespan of Move/Jump +1 & +2.

QuoteMove Underwater, Move in Water, and Walk on Water should get +3 bonus when in Water too.

I disagree about "Walk on Water" because it treats water like normal ground; which is enough of a feat on its own. And, I think it would be better to limit the bonus for Move in Water to +1, and Move underwater (which is basically swimming) to +2. I mean do you really want to have Mindflayers zipping around the map like that?

QuoteMove on Lava : +3 movement bonus when the unit standing on Lava.

It would still suck. The fact of the matter is that there's only one map that has lava. This should really be merged with "Any Ground", be given other terrain effects, or make it a useful support ability for the geomaner and other mages by giving it elemental boosts on certain terrain.


Before we go any further with this, can we try to come up with a definition for what a movement ability should be.
Looking over the original set in vanilla I think this is reasonable:

A movement ability is a type of support ability that either directly affects a unit's ability to move or adds a bonus of some kind triggered by the unit using the move skill from the main menu.

Quote from: "Vanya"Aren't you the one spear-heading the "no pseudo-support for movement abilities" thing? -_-

Adding transparent to "Move in Water" makes no sense since the units will only be up to their waist in water.

It was only an example of something that could be done, while still keeping the ability situational to the terrain the unit is standing on. You can have it do something else.

QuoteIt would make more sense for it to be given to "Move Underwater". And on top of that you'd be turning "Move in Water" into a pseudo-support.

You seem to have some confusion between what we are calling Pseudo-Support and a Movement Ability.

Let me clarify a bit.

Pseudo Support = Move on Lava with Fire Immunity tossed on top of it

Movement Ability = Any Ground with the unit gaining X bonus when it is standing in terrain type X.


Pseudo Support means it is used as a support ability, not as a movement ability.

Movement Ability means it affects the unit's movement with regards to the terrain of the map.

A Passive Immunity to Fire (which was your idea) has NOTHING to do with what terrain the unit is standing on, or it's ability to move around the map.

QuoteA movement ability is a type of support ability that either directly affects a unit's ability to move or adds a bonus of some kind triggered by the unit using the move skill from the main menu.

rofl

Quote[On Any Ground] Neither does giving movement bonuses on certain terrain. If that is what you do to it then it isn't "Any Ground" anymore.

Sure it makes sense. The unit with Any Ground will be able to move to move through that particular terrain type with great ease! If this doesn't make sense for a movement ability to you, then I don't know what does. (It makes hella more sense than elemental properties / evasion bonuses, which have zip to do with what a movement ability is)


None of the suggestions we are giving on this are final, stop pretending like they are. (You seem to like debating points as if they were agreed upon and that is how we want Razele to do it.) We're just throwing out ideas, albeit, they are ideas which are way more suited to a Movement Ability than passive evasion bonuses or passive elemental properties.

This:

QuoteMovement Ability means it affects the unit's movement with regards to the terrain of the map.

Directly contradicts this:

QuoteMovement Ability = Any Ground with the unit gaining X bonus when it is standing in terrain type X.

Because of that one little word; "standing". If the effect happens while you are PASSIVELY standing, even if it has to be on a certain terrain, makes it a support effect. That's why I didn't argue for the fire immunity for Move on Lava further.

If we're going to be nazi about this then the only things that the movement abilities can do is negate movement penalties and increase move/jump values. Having transparent while you're standing still in water has NOTHING to do with your unit's ability to move even if its only situational.

By our definitions, all the original move skills are fine except a couple need to have certain effects trimmed off. But if we only did that it would all be much more bland.

Don't get me wrong. A skill that gives terrain bonuses for standing on certain panels is a great idea, but it is a support effect. It wouldn't affect how you move, just where you move. And every single skill and ability in the game affects your decisions on where to move. ^_^

Quote from: "Vanya"This:

QuoteMovement Ability means it affects the unit's movement with regards to the terrain of the map.

Directly contradicts this:

QuoteMovement Ability = Any Ground with the unit gaining X bonus when it is standing in terrain type X.

I don't think it does.

You can have both types of effects and it'll still be a good idea for a movement ability.

I'm pretty sure you know what I meant by both statements, as does everyone (it's pretty obvious). Both types of bonuses are just something you can do to make a movement ability more useful.

QuoteIf we're going to be nazi about this...

There is no "we" here. You are the one being a nazi saying the two above statements supposedly contradict eachother. They don't. Standing or just passing through, a movement related to the terrain is a pretty darn good idea for a movement ability.

QuoteBecause of that one little word; "standing".

Exactly, that's just analism on your part. Probably because you can't argue with anything else.

QuoteIf the effect happens while you are PASSIVELY standing, even if it has to be on a certain terrain, makes it a support effect.

There is a difference between a Passive Effect that is always active (Your Walk on Lava = Fire Immunity idea) and a bonus that is GRANTED when you walk on a terrain type.

That does not make it a support effect!

Support Abilities are Always Active. That is why we called your ideas Pseudo-Support and GImmicky, because they would always be active as long as the Ability was equipped, without regard to terrain type, map, or unit placement, similar to a Support Skill.

QuoteHaving transparent while you're standing still in water has NOTHING to do with your unit's ability to move even if its only situational.

The Transparent bonus itself has nothing to do with movement, but the movement ability providing a bonus that is SITUATIONAL on the terrain type you are standing on is totally related to movement.

Again, the Transparent thing was an example. And although it is not the perfect example, a bonus that is granted by a Movement Ability depending on the terrain type you send the unit to is still a much better idea than what you suggested.

Man, it's like you have nothing left to argue and are just ignoring all my points now.

QuoteBy our definitions, all the original move skills are fine except a couple need to have certain effects trimmed off. But if we only did that it would all be much more bland.

I'm not really trying to define what a Movement Ability is, so much as calling your ideas inferior to the ones I am proposing. Do not confuse the two.

Also Bland > Gimmicky

QuoteAnd every single skill and ability in the game affects your decisions on where to move. ^_^

Sure. That doesn't make them Movement Abilities, though.

Nice try.

QuoteSupport Abilities are Always Active. That is why we called your ideas Pseudo-Support and GImmicky, because they would always be active as long as the Ability was equipped, without regard to terrain type, map, or unit placement, similar to a Support Skill.

Move +1 gives the effect of adding 1 to your movement stat. That is always active without regard to terrain type, map, or unit placement. Does that disqualify it from being a movement ability?

Also, your definition of a support ability is flawed. Martial Arts is only active if the unit is bare handed. Monster Skill is only active if there is a monster is adjacent to your unit.

QuoteThere is a difference between a Passive Effect that is always active (Your Walk on Lava = Fire Immunity idea) and a bonus that is GRANTED when you walk on a terrain type.

QuoteThat's true. Which is the problem. You're shooting down ideas that have passive effects and offering up ideas that have a situational passive effect as if it wasn't basically the same thing. Getting a status for standing on a terrain (Your Move in Water = Transparent Status) is not a bonus that is GRANTED when you walk on a terrain type. It's a bonus granted for stopping on terrain type. And that does contradict your statement.

Quote from: "Vanya"

QuoteSupport Abilities are Always Active. That is why we called your ideas Pseudo-Support and GImmicky, because they would always be active as long as the Ability was equipped, without regard to terrain type, map, or unit placement, similar to a Support Skill.

Does that disqualify it from being a movement ability?

No, because it's adding +1 to your Move stat. Does it make it a very very efficient movement ability because it's not situational? Yes it does.. that's why we want to get rid of +3 and +2.

QuoteAlso, your definition of a support ability is flawed. Martial Arts is only active if the unit is bare handed. Monster Skill is only active if there is a monster is adjacent to your unit.

How does that make it flawed? Martial Arts is active all the time, and it boosts bare fists. If you bring Martial Arts with Punch Art and a Sword, Martial Arts is still granting the bonus to your PA (Punch Art).

This will happen whether you are running on bare fists or not.

Monster Skill is always active, but it only reaches units that are adjacent.

They are both always active.

Perhaps you need to read up on how Martial Arts and the like work?


Again, my goal here is not to try to perfectly define anything, just to show you that your perma bonus ideas for Movement Skills are gimmicky and bad.

QuoteThat's true. Which is the problem. You're shooting down ideas that have passive effects and offering up ideas that have a situational passive effect as if it wasn't basically the same thing.

It's not.

Situational Passive Effect That only works when Standing / Moving on X Terrain Type   =/=  Permanent Passive Effect.

QuoteGetting a status for standing on a terrain (Your Move in Water = Transparent Status) is not a bonus that is GRANTED when you walk on a terrain type. It's a bonus granted for stopping on terrain type. And that does contradict your statement.

How does that contradict anything?

It's a situational bonus from when you step on some terrain types.

Standing on a terrain type or walking on top of it, a bonus that is provided situationally dependent on terrain would make a killer movement ability.

If you want to pretend that just because the idea involved standing on a terrain type panel somehow makes it bad, then have fun with that. I guarantee you people will vote on the terrain idea more than the permanent bonuses you suggested.

Again, how does "standing on X Terrain type" detract from it being a good idea for a movement ability?

HOW does that contradict ANYTHING I've sad?

It doesn't.

QuoteHOW does that contradict ANYTHING I've sad?

How? Because you said this:

QuoteA Movement Ability is just that, a Movement Ability.

And bonuses for standing on a certain terrain are no more about movement than Monster Skill, because despite what you want to believe Monster Skill is not always in effect. The game is always checking for a certain type of unit and applying a change to that unit in the right situation the same way that a terrain based skill would always be checking for a certain terrain and then apply a change to the host unit when in the right situation.

QuoteSituational Passive Effect That only works when Standing / Moving on X Terrain Type =/= Permanent Passive Effect.

It's not EXACTLY the same, but it is close enough. Standing  on a specific terrain is not about movement. It's about getting to a better position. And getting into a better position is what the entire game is about. Getting a movement bonus when you have Move in Water doesn't contradict the movement idea because you're making the whole skill about moving through water faster. (Which nullifying the water penalties already does, btw.) Point being is that you're still shooting down an idea because you say it can be used as a support skill and offering up something that is clearly better as a support ability and slapping a move bonus on it. I could understand a slope giving you momentum to go farther, but why would grass, stone, or whatever make you move farther? And don't say because it's magick.

QuoteStanding on a terrain type or walking on top of it, a bonus that is provided situationally dependent on terrain would make a killer movement ability.

Only if it makes any kind of sense. Other wise it is also gimmicky. If you want terrain to have more of an impact it would make more sense to give terrain itself movement penalties and maybe boosts in the right kind of situation. Then have a movement skill that can ignore those penalties.

QuoteIf you want to pretend that just because the idea involved standing on a terrain type panel somehow makes it bad, then have fun with that.

I never said that it was a bad idea. I said it doesn't make it a good movement ability if you're just standing and not moving.

QuoteI guarantee you people will vote on the terrain idea more than the permanent bonuses you suggested.

And this is where you're really mistaken. This isn't up to a vote. We're not trying to decide what changes to make in a specific hack. We're supposed to be giving Razele ideas about what hacks he should work on. And with that said I'm done with this argument. We've derailed this topic long enough. ^_^

Quote from: "Vanya"

QuoteHOW does that contradict ANYTHING I've sad?

How? Because you said this:

QuoteA Movement Ability is just that, a Movement Ability.

And bonuses for standing on a certain terrain are no more about movement than Monster Skill,

Wtf?  Bonuses for standing on certain terrain are ALL about movement!

They require you to stand on specific terrain, which actually opens up a pretty good level of strategy because you have to MOVE to specific terrains to get the bonuses.

This would be epic for the Geomancer's movement ability.

--

Just because the ability doesn't change the way the unit actually moves doesn't mean it's not a movement ability.

Move +1 doesn't change the way the unit moves (like Fly or Teleport does), but it's a movement ability.

You keep trying to disprove stuff with semantics on what a movement ability is and what it's not, but you cannot seem to grasp that that was never really the point of my argument, but saying that your ideas suck and that the ones suggested after are good ideas for movement skills, is.

QuoteStanding  on a specific terrain is not about movement.

It's not? lol

QuoteIt's about getting to a better position. And getting into a better position is what the entire game is about.

Yes, which is why making a movement ability give you bonuses (of whatever kind you want them to) is a good idea, because it'll promote positioning of units (possibly based on terrain types), and different movement abilities will be better on different terrains.

Which is alot more than I can say for Perma: Evasion bonus and Perma: Elemental Immunity.

That shit is active all the time, and promotes nothing even close to related to movement, placement, terrain, OR strategy. It's just active all the time... like... like a SUPPORT ABILITY.

It's like, your position is impossible to defend and watching you try is growing meme-funny.

QuotePoint being is that you're still shooting down an idea because you say it can be used as a support skill and offering up something that is clearly better as a support ability and slapping a move bonus on it. I could understand a slope giving you momentum to go farther, but why would grass, stone, or whatever make you move farther? And don't say because it's magick.

Again, I have to explain the difference between a bonus that is active all the time (Walk on Lava - Always: Immunity to Fire) and something like Any Ground - + Whatever when standing on X terrain.

One is always active.

One requires the unit to be in a specific terrain.

Yes, they both grant bonuses (that's the point, to give people an incentive to use them... we do this with benefits for the unit, to give an incentive so the ability sees use)... but they are not the same.

Not even close to "almost the same".

It's like saying 1 is the same as 9.

QuoteOnly if it makes any kind of sense. Other wise it is also gimmicky.

It makes more sense to have a movement ability grant a bonus based on terrain or where the unit stands than have a movement ability grant a permanent bonus.

If you think my idea is gimmicky, then yours is a cheap car salesman. ^_^

QuoteI never said that it was a bad idea. I said it doesn't make it a good movement ability if you're just standing and not moving.

Not all of them have to provide bonuses based on where you are standing.

QuoteAnd this is where you're really mistaken. This isn't up to a vote. We're not trying to decide what changes to make in a specific hack. We're supposed to be giving Razele ideas about what hacks he should work on.

Yes this is about giving Razele ideas for ASM hacking, however I'll be damned if his effort goes to waste on lolflyEvasionBonus and lolLavaFireImmunity!!!!

You know when I think an idea is trash I will call it out, unlike alot of people.

QuoteAnd with that said I'm done with this argument. We've derailed this topic long enough. ^_^

Not derailing at all.

It's important that ideas that are a waste of time are identified and scratched out, otherwise Razele will spend time working on fixes which are not only gimmicky, but sub-parrrrrrrRRRereerrrrr.

Ideas thrown around on chat:


Move-Get-JP --->   Disperse idea by Asmo
Cancels Blind, Confuse, Frog, Berserk, Poison, Slow, Death Sentence when the unit moves.

QuoteMove-HP/MP Up: Seem fine to me. I might making a recommendation so that the amount of HP/MP gained relates to the number of steps taken. Maybe 2% of HP per panel moved. Some people complain about the MP Up trick where you can use it with MP Switch to keep it going longer, but I say that is a problem with MP Switch not this movement ability. Thus with MP Switch it should only cushion the damage the character receives and if the damage is larger than there is MP that then the character should take the remaining damage to their HP.

2% HP / square seems like a nerf.
The original bonus is 10% MaxHP / move.
Since you will equip Move-HP Up, your Move should be around 3 or 4, and I don't think 6% - 8% is enough.

QuoteI think the movement bonus on the different terrains is a good plan. Maybe it will have to be lower than +3 though, but it is hard for me to picture how this would actually work.

Bonus type / numbers can be discussed / customized.
It's not that hard to imagine how this would work. Examples :

Ramza has 3 Move, 4 Jump and equip Any Ground as movement abilities.
Let's assume "Sand area" gives -1 movement penalty, and Brick gives +1 movement bonus.

When Ramza stands on "Sand area", his movement is reduced by 1 to 2


When Ramza stands on "Brick", his movement is increased by 1 to 3.

QuoteMove in Water = Unit becomes undetectable (Transparent) when in water

It's possible, I can use "Poisoned Marsh" trigger.

Some ideas for Jump+X :
Jump+X abilities are perfect for class that mainly use ranged weapons, like Bow, Crossbow, Gun, Instrument, Dictionary
to reach a higher place.

Jump+1 : Increase attack power by 20% if the height difference between you and target >= 3
Jump+2 : Increase attack power by 25% if the height difference between you and target >= 4
Jump+3 : Increase attack power by 30% if the height difference between you and target >= 5

As usual, numbers can be discussed.

QuoteMove-Get-JP ---> Disperse idea by Asmo
Cancels Blind, Confuse, Frog, Berserk, Poison, Slow, Death Sentence when the unit moves.

This ability can have some use, especially against Zodiac boss with lots of status ability.