Final Fantasy Hacktics

The 12 Zodiac Braves... Now that I think about it, you actually recreate the Zodiac Brave legend in FFT. Here is what I've come up with. You have a roster of 16 people. You can knock out Boco, he's a monster. Worker 8, hell he's not even human so he's out. Byblos, same as Boco. Cloud, not even from this dimension so he's out. So, 16 - 4 = 12.

Ramza
Mustadio
Agrias
Rafa
Malak
Cid
Meliadoul
Rad
Alicia
Lavian
Beowulf
Reis

I'm not counting Alma since she can't be recruited and doesn't travel with the other characters, she's also more associate with the Lucavi as an host for Altima/Ultima (somewhat of a host, but manages to break free later).

So here is some food for thought for you guys. A day has 24 hours, let's divide that by 2. You get 12 right.

The 12 Zodiac Braves are associated with the 12 hours of the day (Light/Good/Heroes/Saviors/etc).

The 12 Lucavis are associated with the 12 hours of the night (Darkness/Evil/Demons/Corruptors/etc).

Eh, I always considered the 12 unique characters to be the Zodiac Braves (so that includes worker 8, byblos, and Cloud's clone). Alicia, Lavian, Rad, and Boco are all semi unique but except their names and conversation text they're the same as their generic versions.

Ah okay, I should of said that I was thinking at the time I wrote that post that it was 12 "Ivalian" heroes meaning human people.

But anyways, even with your way of thinking. It comes out to 12 in the end also.

Can go either way, but still, impressive things you've tied together.

Quote from: Fenrir90 on July 01, 2011, 02:59:56 pm
The 12 Zodiac Braves... Now that I think about it, you actually recreate the Zodiac Brave legend in FFT. Here is what I've come up with. You have a roster of 16 people. You can knock out Boco, he's a monster. Worker 8, hell he's not even human so he's out. Byblos, same as Boco. Cloud, not even from this dimension so he's out. So, 16 - 4 = 12.

Ramza
Mustadio
Agrias
Rafa
Malak
Cid
Meliadoul
Rad
Alicia
Lavian
Beowulf
Reis

I'm not counting Alma since she can't be recruited and doesn't travel with the other characters, she's also more associate with the Lucavi as an host for Altima/Ultima (somewhat of a host, but manages to break free later).

So here is some food for thought for you guys. A day has 24 hours, let's divide that by 2. You get 12 right.

The 12 Zodiac Braves are associated with the 12 hours of the day (Light/Good/Heroes/Saviors/etc).

The 12 Lucavis are associated with the 12 hours of the night (Darkness/Evil/Demons/Corruptors/etc).

This is touched upon in FFXII with the Scions of Light and Scions of Darkness (who are the Lucavi). Who the Zodiac Braves really were isn't really stated explicitly. Legends say that the Zodiac Braves defeated the Lucavi and apparently the Glabados Faith also puts Ajora into that. Ramza himself seems to lose all faith that there ever was any real Zodiac Braves and that they were, and always have been, the Lucavi themselves. (He mentions something to this effect to Wiegraf/Belias in Riovanes) This is because he goes by the mistaken belief that the stones are evil. He changes his views when he sees Rafa revive Malak with the stone but I've already explained away his explanation for why the stone works there in another topic.

I believe that the Zodiac Braves (which in a way mirrors FFI's Four Heroes of Light, they each appeared with a Zodiac Stone in hand) did exist and that they sealed each separate Lucavi in the stones. In FFT do you play as those people reincarnated? ...Possibly. I will say that Altima clearly points out Ramza as being her slayer in times long past. Now this can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

1. Occurian? - Altima was only slain in a war against the Occuria and the Scions of Light. If she means actual "slayer" that would be a possible case.

2. Germonik - This man indirectly lead St. Ajora to her death, thus bringing about the fall of the Holy Empire Ydora and Murond. But did Ajora ever know of this? There is also a theory that Germonik may be the "Elidibs" you see at the bottom of the Deep Dungeon, it is clear that Germonik likely had to have lost his mind at some point, likely after the fall of Farism and Ydora to have wrote all of the ways back to the sunken Murond. Germonik also plays the role of Judas in this story, Judas in popular culture seems to represent the 13th Disciple of Jesus, so its not unlikely that Germonik was given the Serpentarius stone if Ajora was trying to use the Zodiac Brave legend herself. Even if this was the case, could Ajora have really known of Germonik's betrayal? Enough to call Ramza/Germonik her "slayer" in times past? I think it is a bit unlikely.

3. Literal Executioner of St. Ajora - This seems extremely vague and I do not see why Altima would even bother to mention it.

4. Zodiac Brave - This seems the most likely option, that Ramza's ancestor or reincarnation defeated Altima and sealed her in the Zodiac Stone. This would also hint that there was no Ramza-esque character when the Holy Empire sunk and the possible cause of the Cataclysm arose. That is unless Hero King Mesa fought her, which isn't an impossibility.

Do I feel Ramza's entire group consists of Zodiac Brave reincarnations? Not especially... I would say there could be some exceptions, Orlandu has the Libra stone passed down in his family, which means his ancestor may have defeated Exodus and kept the stone in the family line for safekeeping. As for the others the connection is just far too tenuous to say one way or the other, but I would lean that it is not so.

Whether the Zodiac Braves exist or not was left up to interpretation in the story. It could very well be that they do, and like Ramza's group, they're unsung heroes who's recognition goes to someone else.

Or it could just be ironic coincidence that there are 12 special characters to recruit in the game.

Ah sorry LastingDawn, but I'm not speaking from inside the box (within FFT games), I'm looking from outside the box point-of-view. I've just re-read my post and never stated the Ramza and company are the Zodiac Brave's reincarnation, unless you took recreate as being reincarnate. But that is not what I meant, they "recreate" (what I meant was emulate the legend) them without them knowing. Ramza gets 12 {12 Ivalian Humans or 12 special characters or something else that comes up to 12} without them being aware of it, I guess it could be an easter egg left there by the developer(s). In the end, you emulate a story within a story.

As for the whole Altima/Ultima saying that Ramza's descendent slayed/killed her, I took this phrase that Ramza descended from Germonik. Ironic no? Germonik did it (killed or lead her to her death) for money, while Ramza did it for better reasons (no personal gain in killing Altima - no money - no title of hero, no fame, etc - only did it to get his sister back). In fact, he lost it all and became an heretic in the end. Germonik became richer and Ramza became poorer (material wise).

I like what Kaiyuu said and he said it best; "they're unsung heroes who's recognition goes to someone else". I couldn't of said it better myself.

Emulation
A story within a story.

I do see Lasting Dawn point, but i think Fenrir got the "X" fo the question here. You know, mosto all game that tells a story leaves something untold for us, fans, to think on it for ourselves and reach ou conclusion.
They sure believed the whole Brave legend in the beginning, but they don't realize that the path they are taking fits realy well in this very legend. They face off a great evil (for diferent purposes of the legend of course, whole things started with alma being kidnapped insted of saving the world from chaos), they gather 12 people and 12 "holy stones" anda defeat this very same evil.
It is clear that the stones goes with the user's intentions (wiegraf used it to transform into lucavi while rafa used it o bring her brother back to life).
There is a lot to think about elidibis, maybe he realy is germinok, maybe not. Maybe destiny rally theses 12 people to confront the evil, maybe not, the fact is that the story they live and the story they believed (untill they read the germinok scriptures) are very much the same, with diferent reasons, but same endings.

Quote from: LastingDawn on July 03, 2011, 03:32:27 pm
2. Germonik - This man indirectly lead St. Ajora to her death, thus bringing about the fall of the Holy Empire Ydora and Murond. But did Ajora ever know of this? There is also a theory that Germonik may be the "Elidibs" you see at the bottom of the Deep Dungeon, it is clear that Germonik likely had to have lost his mind at some point, likely after the fall of Farism and Ydora to have wrote all of the ways back to the sunken Murond. Germonik also plays the role of Judas in this story, Judas in popular culture seems to represent the 13th Disciple of Jesus, so its not unlikely that Germonik was given the Serpentarius stone if Ajora was trying to use the Zodiac Brave legend herself. Even if this was the case, could Ajora have really known of Germonik's betrayal? Enough to call Ramza/Germonik her "slayer" in times past? I think it is a bit unlikely.

I completely agree that Germonik plays the role of Judas in FFT story, but I don't understand how Germonik is associated with Elidibs. Further elaborate on this please, I'm really curious about it. Also, Jesus only had 12 disciples and Judas is number 12 from doing searches on google. The part in bold is something that I would like to see some sources on this claim because google didn't showed me anything.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Disciples#The_Twelve_Apostles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_%28Christianity%29
+ a bunch of google search results, should be pretty easy to find doing a search on your own.

Quote from: Joseph Strife on July 05, 2011, 08:02:45 pm
I do see Lasting Dawn point, but i think Fenrir got the "X" fo the question here.

By the way Joseph Strike, what does the bold part mean. Sorry, never heard this expression before. English is not my first language, French is.

Neither is mine Fenrir, i think i might have englished some portuguese expression, it's the same as you got the essential point of understanding the question, you got just on the critical part. sorry to have caused misunderstanding.  

I see your point, i'm very interested in seing this relation between elidibis and germinok, but not found anything about it too. Hope Lasting Dawn can give us some light.

2 thinks about the jeebus's 13th disciple:

he had a black disciple named Rufus (usually Long Rufus) that was never mentioned because he was black. He was portrayed by Cris Rock in the movie Dogma.

In seriousness, i believe that after Judas hanged himself, the apostles acquired a replacement. while his name escapes me at the moment, he is considered the 13th apostle and not Judas. At least thats what i remember from sunday school.

Quote from: Fenrir90 on July 05, 2011, 09:56:26 pm
I completely agree that Germonik plays the role of Judas in FFT story, but I don't understand how Germonik is associated with Elidibs. Further elaborate on this please, I'm really curious about it. Also, Jesus only had 12 disciples and Judas is number 12 from doing searches on google. The part in bold is something that I would like to see some sources on this claim because google didn't showed me anything.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Disciples#The_Twelve_Apostles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_%28Christianity%29
+ a bunch of google search results, should be pretty easy to find doing a search on your own.

By the way Joseph Strike, what does the bold part mean. Sorry, never heard this expression before. English is not my first language, French is.

Yes, the thirteenth disciple  is a fellow named Mathias, if memory serves right. Though since he basically "replaced" Judas, I would say that Judas would be considered the "black sheep", so to speak, therefore pushed from the 12, but still considered an apostle, similar to how Serpentarius is the "hidden" thirteenth Zodiac Sign. But... it strangely appears that this Mathias is more or less forgotten by time and Judas is actually thought of in the same vein as the original 12. Though to get back to FFT, I think there is too much to pointing that something happened to Germonik after the fall of Murond (and possible Cataclysm). The book contains a spell to return to the sunken city where St. Ajora truly died, rather than at Golgorand where the claim of Ajora's death was. I think that after seeing what reporting Ajora and having her executed had done, he may have cracked and fled to the solitude with his Zodiac Stone of Serpentarius given to him by Ajora.

From Ramza's own musings about the book he said that a lot of it had remain untranslated by Simon.

Oh, and you meant recreate the legend under different circumstances. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Quote from: LastingDawn on July 07, 2011, 01:28:59 pm
Though to get back to FFT, I think there is too much to pointing that something happened to Germonik after the fall of Murond (and possible Cataclysm). The book contains a spell to return to the sunken city where St. Ajora truly died, rather than at Golgorand where the claim of Ajora's death was. I think that after seeing what reporting Ajora and having her executed had done, he may have cracked and fled to the solitude with his Zodiac Stone of Serpentarius given to him by Ajora.

From Ramza's own musings about the book he said that a lot of it had remain untranslated by Simon.

Oh, and you meant recreate the legend under different circumstances. Yeah, that sounds about right.

I think we get a point here, Ramza does mention that Simon haven't translated all the scriptures, so, that's the blank space the game left us to fill. I see Lasting Dawn's point and agrre with it, matbe the whole thing is right and germinok(elidibis) realy is the 13th Zodiac Brave (as far as i know, serpentarius has realy been accepted in the zodiac signs, i think there isn't much time this happened).
Legend are born and recreated a lot in RPG/strategy games, but the one FFT tells and recreate is one of the bests and leaves much blank spaces for ur fans to fill

Sorry, but I'm not buying the whole Germonik as being Serpentarius. It's too farfetched and would definitely have been mention in some shape or form or even be slightly indicated somewhere within the game(s). Don't you think, the whole Glabados Church surround about Ajora being a god figure and everybody knows that Germonik is a traitor, etc. Don't you think the church would have enjoyed and gained more by destroying his name/reputation further by saying that Germonik was punished by Ajora or God? This is what happens to people who regects the "true" God or faith? Saying that Ajora made Germonik insane, etc. Any religion that portrays a figure as evil will have that figure destroyed entirely. A good example is the God Seth of Egyptian Mythology. He was a beneficial/helpful/somewhat a good god who was later demonized by the very same people (Egyptians) into the vile evil god we know today. Since there is no mention of divine punishment/justice against Germonik. If there was it would have been mention and be crucial to the Glabados Church to mention it in their teachings, don't you think? Being a simple traitor by name is all Germonik got.

We agree that FFT emulates Christianity to some degree, right. Germonik is/has Judas' character or equivalent to it. Judas is a simple (one-dimensional) character, similar to Germonik. Both were branded as traitors and that's pretty much it honestly. Both disappear and nothing else, except we know Judas hanged himself. Germonik fate is unknown, since there is no mention on what happened to him exactly. It's safe to assume that he disappeared from the eyes of history. And he didn't do anything worth while for his name to be mention again in history (as of this moment). Take that anyway you want; your imagination is your limit.

Hmm...I was under the impression from the game's story that Ajora was executed at Golgorand Execution Site, but her "soul" lingers in Murond Death City and it was the only place where Lucavi leader Altima/Ultima could be resurrected. Meaning that after Ajora's execution, her corpse/body was brought over to Murond for safe keeping (so that she doesn't get a proper burial and ascend to heaven). Ajora was simply use has an example to everyone especially targeting Ajora's followers that this is what happens to traitors/agitators/rebels/revolutionist/etc who goes up against the Fara Church before it was sunk into the ocean (either caused by a miracle or not). It makes sense to use Ajora for their example since she was famous and all, being the leader of her sect. So, Ajora's soul was earthbound in Murond Death City, which at end game is pretty much true.

Now, let's talk about the Serpentarius stone, well I pretty much believe that it was artificially create after the original twelve and not created by the original creator(s) (either created by god or devil, or whoever) of the stones. Why do I say it was artificially created? You simply just need to compare the pictures of the stones. The Serpentarius stone has non gem-like (auracite) metal serpent things wrap around it which leads to my conclusion that it was made by someone else and not by the original creator(s). The original 12 holy stones are plain and simple and unattractive. The question is why isn't Serpentarius in the shape of a simple looking serpent auracite in the same fashion like the original 12 stones? The rest of the holy stones are in the shape of what they represent. The stone doesn't need to be prettied up to work and those that created the original 12 didn't pretty them up like the Serpentarius stone.

Now, who created the 13th stone? Good question, but I've always associated it with Elidibs as him being the creator of it. But while writing this, I've also come up with another possible and plausible conclusion. This is my speculation and by going with the information that the game provides directly and indirectly. I'll explain it in further details even if my statement are mixed together, sorry about that but you'll get the whole picture after reading all of it. I strongly believe that the Serpentarius stone was created by an unnamed wizard/sorcerer/magician that is well verse in the arcane arts or it is simply found by Elidibs. As Elidibs being the creator of the stone, he is said to have been a great wizard. Here is his biography.

Elidibs (PSX biography): A great magician who fought against the Romanda Army during the height of the Fifty Year War. He was essential in the kingdom's victory, using many black magic and summon magic that he studied from old teachings. Disappeared during the recapture of Riovanes Castle. Is Lucavi, who was in the deep dungeon, actually the hero, Elidibs? It is a mystery...

Let the connection begin, I'll start at the beginning. Elidibs has a job and skill set, even if it's a vague connection. If I remember correctly, Elidibs is a Hell Magician/Nether Shaman and his skill set is Phantom/Esper. How do I know this? In the battle against Elidibs at the END, if you use the gameshark code called "Battle Debug Menu". You can go to Elidibs battle information and see his second command is Phantom/Esper. Also, what about Midgardsormr summon spell (the pseudo summon)? He seems to be the only one to possess this summon and there is only two skill sets that have it, and both of these skill sets are equip on Elidibs (Lucavi). It would be fitting that he created it/develop it or found it/learn it when he studied this so call old teachings whatever that is.

Phantom/Esper skill set: Midgardsormr, Bahamut, Odin, Leviathan, and Salamander.

Plus the fact that every special character has a class name (hell... Ajora has a class name, but no skill set) except Elidibs (hero) who does not have one... or maybe he does! There is a skill set used by Elidibs (Lucavi). So, to associate the skill set call Phantom/Esper to Elidibs (Hero) would be correct to assume because there is no Hell Magician/Nether Shaman generics (meaning that it was intended to be a special job class, but was cut) and its safe to assume to a certain extend that this or could be Elidibs job class name. Heck, he doesn't look like a generic unit to me. While everyone has a job name but no skill set, Elidibs has no job name and a skill set.

Phantom/Esper: Hell Magician Job command. Makes illusional monsters (Summon Monsters/Espers) to control the world.

A part of the description seems to fit perfectly with Elidibs biography; no other biography fits this command description. He's a special character just like Larg and Ajora, yet does not have a "job". But there is a skill set out there that is not associated with anyone except for Elidibs (Lucavi). So yes, it fits with him well.

Still not convince? Well, since the tools exist for FFT exist. Look through all the non job character classes (character portrait) and try to associate the class name Hell Magician/Nether Shaman with anyone of them. Elidibs (hero) is the only one who looks like a magician, so it safe to assume it was meant for him.

It is stated that Elidibs is a Lucavi, but he fails to have his very own Fear command set which is pretty much universal to all Lucavis (the other 5 and to some extend the 6 one too in some form). From my point of view, Elidibs (Lucavi) was created neither by the original creator(s) of the holy stones. In other words, he's an artificial being or in this case, an artificial Lucavi. It's also ironic that there are two beings called Elidibs, there's the hero and Lucavi, which leads me to further believe that Serpentarius has no name since it's an artificial nameless vessel thus taking the name of whoever uses the Serpentarius stone (the host). If {insert player character here} used the Serpentarius stone and transforms into Serpentarius, he would keep the {insert player character here} name. I would also like to point out that Elidibs is a strange Lucavi who doesn't help the other 5 Lucavis in order to revive their leader nor being mention by Vormav (who mention Adramelk is trap in limbo before even meeting Adramelk) and Adramelk himself mention Altima/Ultima (before meeting her) which pretty much makes me think that either the Serpentarius stone wasn't created yet or he's an artificial being (not really a Lucavi like the others - going as far to call him a pseudo Lucavi).

In the end, it's all speculation yes, but it makes sense if you think about it and connect all the dots together. Also Serpentarius command list does not have a Fear command within either the two command slots.

Lackey Lucavis (Queklain as example)
Fear: Lucavi Job command. Alters enemy status by ripping apart their souls.
Impure: Impure King Job command. Impurity clings to enemy's body eating away the flesh.

Elidibs
Dark Cloud: Serpentarius Job command. Transcends human understanding.
Phantom: Hell Magician Job command. Makes illusional monsters to control the world.

I'm not considering Holy Angel and Arc Angel due to the facts she's the leader of the others and possesses all the fears into one spell (Grand Cross) and it would be a waste to put a Fear command on her (What kind of final boss, or any boss for that matter from any other RPGs to have plain generic spells?). But... BUT, there is a command that contains all Arc Angel skills into a single skill set. Also, there is an All Fear command plus one unused Lucavi spell called Hold Tight, a 100% status inflicting ability located inside it. That ability was dummied out along with the skill set. This could have originally been Holy Angel and/or Arc Angel job commands at some point during development, but was scrap in favor of a more final boss like skills and skill sets (more flashy and awe in graphics)... and not wanting to give Altima/Ultima a generic Lucavi command. Holy Angel skill set each contains one skill each and they are Ultima version II (Ultimate Magic) and Chaos (Grand Cross). Such a waste, this is a bit pathetic the final boss' skill set. Arc Angel skill sets is a little bit of an improvement over Holy Angel.

Proof? Open up your FFTPatcher and look at the blank named dummied out skill sets, you'll see them all.

Source: Unfortunately, I can't test it to confirm it myself if Elidibs has the command during his battle due to my computer being nearly dead (it keeps dying on me) and me not having that kind of money to fork it over for a new computer (this is an old computer, so I do need a new one lol). I've been having 3 week of continuous problems with it. I would truly like to show you, but I can't under these circumstances. So the above statement is: "if I recall correctly". If others want to test it, you got to use the "battle debug menu" gameshark code. I used my real FFT disc (Greatest Hits - SCUS-94221) with a real PlayStation and a real gameshark a few of years ago (more than 6 years ago).

(as far as i know, serpentarius has realy been accepted in the zodiac signs, i think there isn't much time this happened).

The Serpentarius sign does not have a month assigned to the calendar in the game (or in real life for that matter), so officially it's not an official Zodiac sign since nobody can be assign to it. Unofficially, it is usually not counted as a Zodiac sign, but Ophiuchus (It was formerly referred to as Serpentarius) is the "thirteenth" ecliptic constellation where the sun passes through all Zodiacal constellations including Ophiuchus. Including there, it's not the 13th, it's the 9th Zodiacal constellation.

"Taking the current constellation boundaries as defined in 1930 by the International Astronomical Union, the ecliptic itself passes through an additional thirteenth constellation, Ophiuchus, situated between Scorpius and Sagittarius. This was identified in Ptolemy's Almagest, but is not generally recognised as part of the Zodiac. The idea of introducing Ophiuchus as a sign of the zodiac dates to the 1970s and was popularized in Japanese sidereal astrology from the late 1990s by Walter Berg's The 13 Signs of the Zodiac."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac#Zodiacal_constellations

This is a Japanese made game after all, so it's not too surprising. But there is a crucial error, Serpentarius is not the 13th sign, Pisces is. The Zodiac sign did not receive a retcon for it to be considered official. In retcon, Serpentarius is the 9th sign (between Scorpio and Sagittarius), not the 13th. Link above for proof. Serpentarius was created after the original 12 were created which makes more sense as a whole honestly and the game shows proof of this if you look closely. I don't have it word-by-word, but when you press select it says; It's the 13th sign, nothing more is know about it (something like this). It's called the 13th sign (not 9th) because it was not part of the original 12. If it was part of the Zodiac sign, it would have been the 9th sign. It was added to the Zodiac sign (original 12, became the 13th), but not recognizes has being a Zodiac sign (original 12). Now, let's change Zodiac to Lucavi now. Serpentarius was added to the Lucavi (original 12, became the 13th), but not recognizes has being a Lucavi (original 12) which further supports what I have been saying all along. But I do agree with one point that LastingDawn said, and that is Serpentarius is the "Black Sheep" (idiom) of the Lucavis, but that's it. If it was officially recognized as being part of the Zodiac, then it would be the 9th sign not the 13th.

PS: Due to my computer's condition, I have not revised this and this is not my finale statement. But in the mean time, it'll have to do. This was createdover three weeks ago, before my computer problems. Lucky I am able to post this.

I think we also need to consider what Zodiark was in FFXII, as well. Zodiark's description in FFXII is thus:

"Strongest of the scions created by the gods, they feared his growth, and so kept him a child. So indomitable is his strength that all things are by him twisted and pressed into oblivion. He alone fashions the laws governing all things, and administers punishment in place of the gods. So is he Keeper of Precepts, and his authority is absolute."

In XII, Zodiark was different from the other Espers (aka Lucavi and Scions) in that he didn't rebel against the Occuria as the other twelve did. He was sealed away because the Occuria feared his strength. Not much else is known about it in XII besides that, but it's a nice way of showing that he is indeed different from the other Lucavi.

I'm going to do a bit more research and post my findings in a bit.

Serpentarius was officially recognized by the astrology community last year.