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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Otabo

Oh yes, that reminds me: Is something going to be done to bags this time around?

Shintroy

Where can I see the change list for the next version?
Some day my people will be free.

Reks

Quote from: Shintroy on October 03, 2014, 09:59:12 pm
Where can I see the change list for the next version?


On the page before, one of FFM's posts listed the changes.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Shintroy

Salty Rage always berserk? GG Mime.
Can finally make a spear wielding Samurai I always wanted, but didn't want to put any effort into making.
Some day my people will be free.

Leif1991

Once 139 is released, will there be a modded team builder implementing these changes? Also, Dokurider talked about a nerf to zombie units. Does this mean that they are no longer guaranteed revival when their death counter reaches zero?
Season 3 A.I. Tournament Champion

Barren

I think what that means is that they can get revived but now there's a 50% chance of them waiting another turn to get back up. So essentially they could be down for a long time
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

formerdeathcorps

October 04, 2014, 02:55:27 pm #1526 Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 04:13:31 pm by formerdeathcorps
These changes seem to be make things more balanced.  I may actually play again.

However, there are a few things from the last few seasons that we didn't fix.  Not every status proc is equal.  Due to how the AI works, the actual value of procs in this game is different than how human players will value such procs.  In order of lethality:
1) Charm (makes the enemy unit work for you temporariliy, during which your team will not target)
2) Sleep (takes an enemy unit out of the battle for 60 CT, during which your team will not target)
3) Petrify (makes an enemy unit unable to battle by KOing it)
4) Frog (makes an enemy unit unable to battle, BUT your team will easily kill the target)
5) Stop (takes an enemy unit out of the battle, BUT your team will target)
6) Don't Act (makes an enemy unit unable to battle, BUT your team is able to target)

Notice the difference between 1-3 and 4-6.  In the first 3, the enemy unit will always be incapacitated long-term because they will not be targeted; in the latter 3, the enemy unit is incapacitated BUT can be targeted.  As a result, incapacitation in the latter cases may not always "stick" (because if the incapacitated unit is immediately targeted and killed, the proc then has no long-term value).  This mismatch was used by Avalanche in S6 (first place) and S7 (second place) to brutal effect because he was able to wield both a sleep sword and an ancient sword on the same unit.  Thus, I suggest:
1) Remove Sleep Sword
2) Remove Ancient Sword
3) Remove Moonlight
...in exchange for
I) Zombie Lance (13 WP, +1 SP, 33% Zombie) replaces Spear
II) Stone Spear (12 WP, +1 SP, 20% Petrify) replaces Mythril Spear
III) Luna Spear (11 WP, +1 SP, 50% Proc: Moonlight) replaces Partisan
IV) Holy Lance update (10 WP, +1 SP, 25% Sleep, Holy Element)

The Moonlight suggestion is because Lancer is the base class for dragon spirit (and thus, can best exploit the Moonlight proc).
Overall, this suggestion will further balance the game as lances cannot be mixed with 2S (which is how Avalanche won) and lancer currently does not have enough offensive options.  (It won't further empower already powerful classes because lances can only be natively used by lancers.)
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Shintroy

October 04, 2014, 05:26:21 pm #1527 Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 06:50:50 pm by Shintroy
Could we keep phoenix blade and, like the new Masamune, replace always slow and immunity to haste with the same negatives to speed? Minus 4 to 6 speed sounds balanced. It was a really good singing sword. Bard always got cheer songs off without wasting turns recasting. You're also affected by slow more.

---------------

Won't a 139 Equip Knightsword Thief now end up being stronger than the 138 Katar 2hand Thief?
Some day my people will be free.

Dokurider

QuoteCould we keep phoenix blade and, like the new Masamune, replace always slow and immunity to haste with the same negatives to speed? Minus 4 to 6 speed sounds balanced. It was a really good singing sword. Bard always got cheer songs off without wasting turns recasting. You're also affected by slow more.

Always: Reraise is an unworkable concept. It might be indeed better with negative speed, but you still end up with an unkill-able aggro unit that can Balance the shit out of you.

QuoteWon't a 139 Equip Knightsword Thief now end up being stronger than the 138 Katar 2hand Thief?

17 WP + dispel vs an effective 26 WP + 1 PA/Move
I don't think it really could ever be as bad as Katar Thieves, Always: Protect or not. The combination of extreme damage and move was what made Katar so good.

reinoe

My dreams can come true!

FFMaster

☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Otabo

Quote from: Dokurider on October 07, 2014, 10:21:19 pm
Always: Reraise is an unworkable concept. It might be indeed better with negative speed, but you still end up with an unkill-able aggro unit that can Balance the shit out of you.
17 WP + dispel vs an effective 26 WP + 1 PA/Move
I don't think it really could ever be as bad as Katar Thieves, Always: Protect or not. The combination of extreme damage and move was what made Katar so good.


Agreed. Definetly not. Even if Two Hands worked with KSwords, the damage still wouldn't come close to the damage of Katar thieves. Though, I'm willing to bet now that Slasher can be dual wielded, dual Slasher geos/pallies or maybe even ninjas will become a thing. Probably going to do as much, if not more than Katar thieves now.

Speaking of Balance, now that Phoenix Blade's been reworked, and average HP totals have gone up overall, I wonder if Balance would see even more use now, at least on armored units. Hmm.


reinoe

My dreams can come true!

Otabo

Quote from: reinoe on October 10, 2014, 01:39:20 pm
Can Mimes equip bags?


Nope. They can equip everything except shields and weapons. But, they can still use weapons and shields if they have an 'Equip X' support.

Shintroy

Does Singing and Dancing benefit from Short Charge?
Some day my people will be free.

Barren

No it doesn't.  Because song and dance are performances
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: Shintroy on October 10, 2014, 07:59:12 pm
Does Singing and Dancing benefit from Short Charge?

There are three.

Charging: Hawk's Eye, Bad Luck, ect

Casting: All magic

Performing: Song and Dance

Short Charge works on Casting only, to my knowledge.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Eternal

Charging and Casting are the same thing as far as the game is concerned. Performing is different.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

FFMaster

Eternal is correct.

The game checks for the Performing flag, and it it returns true, the entire Short Charge routine is skipped.
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Shintroy

How does Mime's Attack command work? Does it make equip weapon supports useless outside of stat and other benefits like element strengthening?
Some day my people will be free.