FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[JamesOnyx]

Orichalcum's WP nerf is not about Orichalcum; it's about Katar.  If we don't nerf Orichalcum's WP, then Katar in 1.39 will become more redundant than Orichalcum now.  Damage bots and Draw-Out bots alike will use Orichalcum.

I'm not quite following.  I don't believe I've noticed that many Orichalcums used on Draw-Out units in previous teams (except a few Mediators), and it's only use on damage bots I can think of would be substituting it in for Katar when you've already used up both slots (which then they should just build a Air Knife unit anyways).  It does seem a little redundant (which I hate) but what else should we do to it?  It's seeing almost no use (none were used in this tournament at all) and we want to nerf it?

All I'm saying is, make its WP equal to 1.39 Katar.  If Katar goes down, so does Orichalcum.  That way it's not being completely outclassed (even though it is). 

Coral Sword is going to have some growing pains.  I predict that it will be completely broken with Two Swords.

Well, a 2S Thief with Coral Sword might be able to output close to or above 600 damage to one unit under favorable conditions, assuming my math is correct (Both attacks hit, both Suiton procs activate, both units are at 70 fury/40 faith or innocent)

*I suspect an increased usage in Flash Hats*
*Innocent might become the next "Oil" *
*Might be getting a little too ahead of myself*

Heaven's Cloud's status proc is too good for 10 WP, in my opinion.  This katana is already getting a buff with Genji Helm, so I don't believe the WP boost is necessary.

To be honest, the only reason I made it's WP 10 is so it would match up with the other elemental Katana... What can I say, I like uniformity.

I'm completely okay with Heaven's Cloud staying at 9 WP.  Especially with the new Genji Helm.

That's a pretty minor drawback on all but the smallest maps, in my opinion.  The first turn is usually spent advancing to engage the opposing team.  If anything, it keeps you from lining up in mid-field to get hit by AoE.  The risk of being preemptively struck is quite small, and this risk is certainly worth Stone Gun's 150+ concentrated damage.

All I can say is I completely agree

Simple answer: Its WP needs to be boosted to 14 to keep its damage comparable to Glacier and Blast guns' damage.

Detailed answer: It's a simple law of ratios.  Nether-tier spells have lower Q values than tier-two spells.  Meanwhile, the Q values of fire, ice, and lightning always differ by 1 regardless of tier. (Fire has the lowest Q value, followed by ice, then lightning.)  This effectively increases the damage ratio between the three elements in the nether tier.

Consider the extreme case. Fire, ice, and lightning's Q values are 1, 2, and 3, respectively.  Even though their Q value differ by only 1, ice and lightning are, respectively, twice and three times as powerful as fire.  Accordingly, a fire spellgun would need roughly twice and three times the WP of an ice and lightning spellgun to deal the same damage.

Of course, this fact applies to damage ratio between Glacier Gun and Blast Gun, too.  The reason why Glacier Gun isn't receiving a similar WP boost is because it is already the strongest gun.  Moving to the nether tier makes its damage fall in line with Blast Gun.

That makes sense, I see the reasoning behind it now. 

It has been a problem.  Crossbows, with their meager 4 range, aren't being used at all. 

Didn't someone bring up the idea to increase their range to 5?  I think it would make sense since guns would still have the best neutral range, and longbows would still best them in precision and vertical range.  If so, I think boosting all of their WP by 2 might be a bit much as CT5Holy suggested... but let me do some calculations first just to make sure.

... Nevermind, 12 seems just about right.  I could even see them going to 13 because boosting their damage output requires a lot of investment/support.

Or how about making crossbows capable of being 2H?!  It would make them the only range weapons capable of using 2Hs power boost, but as a downside we'd have to keep their WP down at around 8-9 and most likely their range at 4 (so move 3 units have a chance to get to them).  This would make them quite versatile, capable of poking and spreading nasty statuses and dealing good damage if they decide to 2H.

I think 10 WP would be too much, especially on a distance weapon (320 damage on a Max PA Archer pre fury) but it would leave the unit quite fragile.

I'll go ahead and make two separate lists for Crossbows, one where they're incapable of 2H and another where they are.

spoiler: Crossbows (No 2H support)

Night Killer: 13 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Blind; 2H: No; 2S: No
Silencer: 13 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Silence; 2H: No; 2S: No
Poison Bow: 12 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Poison; 2H: No; 2S: No
Hunting Bow: 10 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Sleep; 2H: No; 2S: No (Tranquilizer anyone?  Could probably use a lower proc rate)
Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Sleep; 2H: Forced; 2S: No (Changed so it matched your current theme)

spoiler: Crossbows (With 2H support)

Night Killer: 9 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Blind; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Silencer: 9 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Silence; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Poison Bow: 8 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Poison; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Hunting Bow: 8 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Sleep; 2H: Yes; 2S: No (Being only 7 WP without 2H, it could probably stay at 50% with this version... maybe)
Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Sleep; 2H: Forced; 2S: No

And as for the replacement for Bowgun, I'd like to submit a completely unoriginal design.

Vampire Hunter/Vampire Killer/"Cross" Bow
12(8) WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5(4); +1 Sp; 100% Cast: Seal Evil; 2H: No(Yes); 2S: No

All of the FLAVOR!  Anyways, it would be nice to see a crossbow that has a stat boost, which is all this basically is with an added bonus of sometimes petrifying those nasty cursed ring units.

I am against lowering Ninja and Thief PA. Lowering their PA pigeonholes them into certain builds. For example, lowering Thief PA would cause them to primarily be speedy itembots, and if they want to even consider doing respectable damage, then they would need to get Two Hands. Lowering PA would also turn off using PA-reliant skillsets. Having 9 PA is low enough, honestly, because you need to spend 2 equipment slots to get them to 12 PA for the next 'boost' with Attack UP. Ninja PA was nerfed to 9 very early on in Arena's existence, where it has stayed this whole time, and I think they're in a fine place. If we're worried about 2H Katar Thieves and Hidden Knife+Ninja Knife Kagesougi Ninjas, let's examine the equipment/skills instead. I think their current stats are appropriate.

Don't thieves already use 2H like crazy, and deal absolutely BONKERS damage?

*looks at your current teams thief*

Thieves seem to have absolutely everything.  Decent HP (144), amazing speed (10), good PA (9), move and jump (each at 4, but that could be seen as a minus on larger maps), and an amazing C-EV (20).  Not to mention abilities like Steal Heart and Quickening (which is thankfully dying) and great equipment choices.  A base of 8 PA would still be 2 equipment slots away from 12, and it will help limit their options.  They would still make great 2H users, Itembots, Talk Skill users, and Kiyomori and Masamune spammers.  That doesn't seem that bad to me.

Oh, what if we made Bizen Boat do PA*X MP damage? Just a thought.

*Thinks of how abusable it would be with Thieves, Ninja's, Monks, Dancers, ect and how utterly helpless magic classes could end up feeling*

I would rather not...

Ninja and Thief have 9 Pa. Reducing it would mean that they have equal Pa than a Chemist, Priest and Mediator. Talking about Mediator i think its stats are to good. A Female Mediator has 9 Speed, 9 MA and excelent HP.

I agree that Mediators seem to have it really good (the same with Theives, even if CT5Holy provided a decent counter argument).  But I'm going to wait saying anything else until we get to covering base stats.

[Barren]

What if we fused parry edge with platinum sword together? Me and fdc were discussing about it and we both agree that parry edge isn't all that great other than evasion and platinum sword while good but not too used.

Here's what would be a good idea:

11 WP
25% WEV
2S
no 2H

[JamesOnyx]

What if we fused parry edge with platinum sword together? Me and fdc were discussing about it and we both agree that parry edge isn't all that great other than evasion and platinum sword while good but not too used.

Here's what would be a good idea:

11 WP
25% WEV
2S
no 2H

A Max PA Squire would be dealing from 276 (70 vs 40 Fury) to 388 (70 vs 70 Fury) with 2S if both hits connect?  It doesn't seem that bad, but why would you get rid of the option to 2H may I ask?  I think it comes out to about the same damage as 2S if I'm calculating everything correctly.  Isn't 2H just a higher risk, higher reward strategy compared to 2S?  You don't even get the extra boost to your evasion.

Also, doesn't this just seem like a sword version of 1.39 Slasher?

[Barren]

Parry edge isn't that useful aside from evasion and platinum sword is quite underused. lowering the WP slightly would still keep it steady. As far as the high damage you're assuming compats. Two swords is actually a bit more flexible than two hands considering that two hands does more damage in one go usually than two swords

[JamesOnyx]

I'm assuming compats?  I don't think so... although my calculations are always coming out a little off most of the time.

spoiler: Attempting to calculate new Platinum Sword damage

Max PA Squire (2S Platinum Sword)
VS 40 Fury Unit
16 * 11 = 176
176 * ((105 * 75) / 10000) = 138 [ 1 hit ]
138 * 2 = 276 [ 2 hits ]

VS 70 Fury Unit
16 * 11 = 176
176 * ((105 * 105) / 10000) = 194 [ 1 hit ]
194 * 2 = 388 [ 2 hits ]


Max PA Squire (2H Platinum Sword)
VS 40 Fury Unit
16 * 22 = 352
352 * ((105 * 75) / 10000) = 277

VS 70 Fury Unit
16 * 22 = 352
352 * ((105 * 105) / 10000) = 388

I'm pretty sure that 2H doubles WP if I'm correct, or else I have no idea how it effects my 2H Stick user... 2H you either hit big or miss, with 2S at least you have a better chance to get some damage in, trigger multiple procs, or even stack stat boosts.

But all of that aside, I completely understand why we'd combine the two.  In fact I'm all for it.  I'm just worried about it pushing in on the new, not as distributed, Slasher.

But that creates another open sword slot.  Does anyone have any ideas what we would put in its place?

[formerdeathcorps]

OK....Barren's going off my suggestions, so I may as well present them all.  Mind you, I haven't played for a while between schoolwork, my patch, and now living in China (so I can't watch YT).

1) If I bring up a weapon / skill with certain mechanics changes, it's operating under the assumption everything else I didn't talk about for that weapon / skill (or any other weapon / skill) is being held constant, regardless of current community consensus (because I really can't follow all you've done since I last left and to be honest, many of those points you all considered settled I'd have to reopen).  I am going off http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0.
2) As a general design principle for weapons:
A) No melee weapon with effective WP > 11 should have 2S or 2H unless it does random damage or heals.  Weapons at effective 11 WP cannot have any other features that distinguish them, such as +Stats, Procs, or EV > 20.
B) We always assume mage and mage equivalents (Bd, Sm-F) have higher effective MA totals than physicals due to their higher base MA vs. PA and availability of +MA equips on knight classes vs. +PA equips.  However, except for Sm-F, we always assume they have less HP than equivalent physical units due to lower innates.  Hence +1 MA and +1 PA are NOT interchangeable on weapon slots; the type of unit using the equip must be considered.
C) We always design weapons with the classes that use them in mind as first priority.  Second priority goes to features not currently existing in the metagame.  Third priority goes to making underused items more tenable.

Weapons:

Knives--Remove 2H from all of them except the main gauche because Air Knife and Katar are breaking the game, but even without 2H, they are still very usable as....
A) Air Knife + Grand Cross
B) Katar + ninjitsu or cover fire (+1 Move is arguably just as good as +1 PA, and much more so if you have PA Save or Battle Song)
C) Orichalum + Draw OUt (+1 Move is arguably just as good as +1 MA, and much more so if you have MA Save or Magic Song)

Ninjato--Change:
A) Short Edge (33% Oil, 10 WP because the key to using this sword is the oil proc, which is unusual among weapons, and serves the strategic role as anti-elemental)

Sword--Change:
A) Phoenix Blade to 14 WP, Fire Elemental, 33% Proc Fire2 because the current implementation can only be used on Jumpers and Balancers but is lethally broken on both.  The 33% Proc (higher than Ice Brand) is to compensate for the weaker damage output of Fire2.
B) Parry Edge and Platina Edge should be fused to 11 WP, 20 WEV, 2H, 2S because it saves space and combines two subpar weapons into one stronger combo.  The slight WP reduction is to follow Rule 2A.
C) Remove Coral Sword's Proc as to follow Rule 2A.  It has 11 effective weapon power since it self-strengthens.
D) Make Ultima Edge 2S instead of 2H so a bard or female squire may actually use it to decent effect with 2S.
E) Remove Blood Sword from 2H because on non-undead units, the drain effect has the effect of reducing enemy WP or Spell Y per round if it connects (because it restores HP).  Of course, in a 1v1 scenario, it is almost as if the enemy is fighting with -10 WP (if they are both physical with the same PA), but in a multiplayer scenario where the user doesn't always take damage, it may well be less.  That being said, on average, the worth from the drain effect is at least 2 WP.
F) Delete Moonlight because paladins and samurai have enough options as is.  Other jobs don't have high enough HP to use it well.  Even so, the effect is nowhere as effective as Climhazzard due to how the AI treats low HP as an opportunity to heal rather than attack, but if you want to retain the effect, it should go to Lances (see below).

Katana--Change:
A) Asura needs 9 WP because 12.5 effective WP is too high for a 2H able weapon.  This is particularly important because samurai has innate 2H and can only use katanas innately.  I'm aware this makes the game more "boring" because it becomes an elemental clone of Koutetsu, but the difference in how fire and dark elemental are used in the game (due to differing spells) should be enough to differentiate the two.
B) Bizen Boat should be 11 WP and a 100% Sinkhole proc (which only works on charging/performing units) instead of silence.  There shouldn't exist a 100% weapon proc for any permanent status, but the basic idea of shutting up a mage should remain.  The WP increase is to make up for the weakening of effect.
C) Heaven's Cloud should be 10 WP and a 33% Slow proc.  Slow is actually stronger than haste because a 50% reduction in effective SP is actually the same as if haste doubled the user's effective SP.  The WP increase is to make up for the weakening of effect.
D) Kikuichimoji is a favorite of mine.  I'd like it back to 13 WP, no 2H because that would immediately give it use on Grand Cross teams (since Earth is the easiest element to absorb).  Furthermore, the current implementation is awful and sees no use.  Sm-M's MA is too low to actually use the proc effectively and a self-strengthening Asura (currently also at 10 WP) looks far more tempting.  Sm-F's MA is far better used on EQ Polearm + Poles or MATKUP or Overwhelm + Kiyomori than this.

Axe--Change:
Giant Axe should be 11 WP and +1 PA/MA.  The reasoning here is a bit odd, but let's first explain what's wrong with this weapon.  Strengthen Earth + Earth gives it 12.5 effective WP, but the earth elemental seriously reduces its potential as many earth absorb and halve teams exist, so I'd rather use Slasher.  The WP is too low to justify grand cross (when you have air knife and excalibur).  Chiri covers the same niche on samurai, and geomancer, although able to boost some attacks with it, doesn't get a boost on Hell Ivy and Carve Model (the two most common terrains).  Boosting ninjitsu with this is equally awful as the best two ninjitsu classes (monk and squire) can't use this innately.  Hence, this weapon is second best at everything and no job can really usefully fuse any of the above offensive tactics into one class.  Thus, I propose this change to give it a niche with geomancer and Sm-M (with innate 2H).

Guns--Change:
A) Spellguns all need to have 4 range, not 6.  They are clearly the strongest guns, on par with the damage output of Gastrofitis after overwhelm and kaiser plate (so they should have the same range), but under normal circumstances, they don't do 300+ damage without Pilgrimage, so no damage changes are necessary. Reducing their damage or changing their effects simply takes away the wonderful synergy that makes gun teams so useful.  Reducing their range, however, makes it easier for mages (who move after gunners) and longbow users to outrange and defeat gunners.  It will also make Stone Gun see more use again.

Longbow--Change:
A) Silver Bow should be 15 WP, +2 MA, 40% Proc: Holy because as it stands, it's not being used effectively.  Three reasons are archer's bad MA and low proc rate, overshadowing by mythril bow and perseus bow (with southern cross), and the weakness of the proc compared to other longbows.  I think my fix addresses all of these and gives mages a real reason to consider EQ: Longbow.
B) Conversely, Mythril Bow needs to drop to 14 WP.  It's a little too dominant right now.
C) Lightning and Ice Bow can stand to lose their +2 MA since it is mostly useless on archer and there's not enough other features on those weapons to entice mages to use them.

Harps--Change:
A) Make the Blood Harp 11 WP because the drain effect is worth at least 2 WP (which compares favorably with 12 WP + 33% Status).

Books--Change
A) Necronomicon could use 15 WP because of the changes below.
B) Madlemgen has 14 WP, 33% Stop, Boost: Ice to help out Rime Bolt.  The WP boost is because of the changes below.
C) Book of Sealing has 11 WP, 50% Bizen Boat.  This is to replace the current monster dictionary effect.
D) Papyrus Plate has 8 WP, 50% Flare.  In short, a magical equivalent of the climhazzard knives everyone's grown to love or hate.

Spear--Change
This is the lancer's preserve, and as thus, the +1 SP spears are in a quandary.  At 9 SP, they can't really jump on anyone and thus need to have spears whose attacks are meaningful and stack well with their heavy tanking abilities.  The spillover will encourage EQ: Polearm on knights and samurais.
A) Spear should have 9 WP, 2Hable, and gain the effect from Moonlight of 50% Blade Beam.  Although I did mention above that the AI is not very efficient at using it, Spear's peculiarities need to be noted.  At 9 SP (from +1 SP of the spear), the user subjects himself to attack from slower 8 SP units, such as mages and 8 SP physicals.  On his second turn, assuming the user still has enough health and isn't using item or chakra, he will attack + the 50% proc.  Similarly, a user can rebuff a fast assault team (of 10+ SP units) with the same concept and then, on his turn, retaliate for heavy damage.  You can even pair this with counter (and with a spear, the 2 range is handy).
B) Myhtril Spear => Blood Spear should have 11 WP and Drain HP.  The effect greatly boosts lancer's tanking (just be wary of undead).  Since lancer is an armor class AND lancer is the only native spear class, this effect is actually equivalent to the Blood Harp as you trade 1 range for +1 SP.
C) Partisan should gain the effect of 20% Dead.  Odin needs a counterpart in weapons and many people do not take the time to null Death Sentence (and Dead) because of Refute.  I think this will pose a nasty shock for a lot of playstyles, especially if used by tankier lancers.
D) Holy Breath should simply be holy damage at MA * 8.  Even with the 2H bonus on a lancer of samurai, I don't quite think it's that strong (because we must remember that the corresponding MA weapon of whale whisker is typically coming off a mage unit with way more MA and 2H).

Veils--Changes:
A) Ryozan Silk should be 11 WP because the effect is more permanent than Cashmere and Persia (and yes, Dn / Support Mage is a fairly useful combo where Ryozan Silk does come in handy).

Accessories--Changes:
A) Cursed Ring--I have a rather creative solution to this problem.  In my testing vs. Doku's 2H thieves, I found that if units with undead and immune: crystal did not always revive in 3 turns, I would have won at least half my matches.  One particular match stuck out where I scored a technical victory but the CT timer on one of the undead thieves was 100 at 0 death counter and he revived and returned to win it all.  Instead of nerfing stats, why not the mechanic?  In other words, if a unit is undead and is immune to crystal, the chances of reviving when CT timer = -1 should be 50% rather than 100%.  Statistically, this averages to a cursed ring user reviving every 4 turns, but the uncertainty can gnaw on a more cautious player and make the more aggressive undead strategies untenable before a good defense.
B) Power Wrist could easily be 15 A-P/MEV and +1 PA
C) Genji Gauntlet must be changed because a charging mage has 0 effective MEV and a draw out user or geomancer would clearly prefer the Magic Gauntlet, Red Shoes, or Diamond Armlet.  It should be +1 MA, ignore enemy MEV because as someone pointed out, MEV is no longer as trivial as it was in S6 and a magic team that's being totally blocked by Aegis Shields + Abandon needs an equipment response.  This is also because I have no idea which support abilities FFM can still freely hack.

Skills--Changes
A) I read somewhere that you all wanted maintenance being a movement ability (assuming FFM can code it properly).  That would definitely increase its use, as would doing the same with defend, though FFM was planning to add a CT bonus to that skill (just the coding was awful).
B) Bizen Boat is slightly too strong.  However, reducing to 1 AoE v2 would be admitting MP destruction > the same amount of HP damage, which is obviously wrong.  I think 1 Range, 1 AoE v2 would be the optimal solution.
C) I may be biased here but you all overnerfed -ton last time.  As I was saying earlier in my discussion on mage jobs vs. physicals, there's a fundamental imbalance between a wizard (with higher base MA to a squire's PA or a monk's effective PA since he can't use hats) than a physical job.  Mk / Nj or Sq / Nj do significantly less damage with ninjitsu and are much less flexible with equipment choices than BM / WM or WM / BM are with black magic, much less Sc / Su, etc.  Furthermore, ninjitsu doesn't even have AoE, so there's even less rationale for justifying MEV.  Instead of insuring "parity" between -ton and Nether Spells (when the classes and spells themselves are just too different), the correct comparisons should be with physical equivalents like Wave Fist, Cover Fire, and Earth Slash.  In that case, it's clear -ton is too weak; my B Team dropped ninjitsu for cover fire which had AoE, fewer restrictions, and had equal average damage.  Hence, a system restore is in order:
-ton: Y = 11, DEFUP, unevade, Reflect (15 MP) and Shuriken: Hits = 4, Y = 2, DEFUP, MEV, noreflect
At the least now, I have a reasonable choice to make between Cover Fire and -ton.
D) I think Kagesougi right now is still pretty overpowered.  I can run a perseus archer with 20 effective PA, cherche, and still deal 320 damage with kagesougi at range + status.  Pretty much, everything that was really nasty about my last season's gunner is still there, substituting his stronger kagesougi blaze gun of S6 for the chances to add DA /DM alongside blind.  In all, that's not a loss.
However, what if we made Kagesougi PA * 8 (Hokouton's formula)?  All of a sudden, my perseus archer's damage is cut in half and ATKUP ninja's damage is also cut to no more than 392 (while running 10 SPD and 253 HP, good luck surviving).  As long as you use the "Add Status" flag, Kagesougi will be used by the AI to add status while dealing sub-weapon damage on the side.  It'd probably be worth 8 MP since it's a mini-bad luck + light damage unless you chose to invest in PA and a ranged weapon or two swords.
E) Bullrush isn't strong enough to warrant a recoil.
F) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)

Otherwise, I really don't see anything else worth changing.

[Gaignun]

Nice to see you around here again, FDC.  Going by your suggestions, I'm not sure how closely you've been following our changes, but they are mostly summarised here.

The following are selective responses to your suggestions.

Ninjato--Change:
A) Short Edge (33% Oil, 10 WP because the key to using this sword is the oil proc, which is unusual among weapons, and serves the strategic role as anti-elemental)

Short Edge's proc is already at 50%, so it is serving its role very well.  WP is dropped to 9 to compensate for its nasty synergy with spellguns, Draw Out, and so forth.

D) Kikuichimoji...

Indeed, it is seldom used.  We are introducing Genji Helm (Strengthen: Wind, Earth) to help remedy both this and Heaven's Cloud.

Guns--Change:
A) Spellguns all need to have 4 range, not 6.  They are clearly the strongest guns, on par with the damage output of Gastrofitis after overwhelm and kaiser plate (so they should have the same range), but under normal circumstances, they don't do 300+ damage without Pilgrimage, so no damage changes are necessary. Reducing their damage or changing their effects simply takes away the wonderful synergy that makes gun teams so useful.  Reducing their range, however, makes it easier for mages (who move after gunners) and longbow users to outrange and defeat gunners.  It will also make Stone Gun see more use again.

Unfortunately, spellguns are never used under "normal conditions."  If players can boost spellgun damage to 1HKO territory, they invariably will.  In response, we're making spellguns cast Nether spells, which are weaker and cannot be boosted with Pilgrimage.

Longbow--Change:
A) Silver Bow should be 15 WP, +2 MA, 40% Proc: Holy because as it stands, it's not being used effectively.  Three reasons are archer's bad MA and low proc rate, overshadowing by mythril bow and perseus bow (with southern cross), and the weakness of the proc compared to other longbows.  I think my fix addresses all of these and gives mages a real reason to consider EQ: Longbow.
B) Conversely, Mythril Bow needs to drop to 14 WP.  It's a little too dominant right now.

Mythril and Ultimus bows' WP are being dropped, so Silver Bow will become better by comparison.  Silver Bow's proc rate could indeed be increased, but I don't think it'll need a WP boost at the same time.

Harps--Change:
A) Make the Blood Harp 11 WP because the drain effect is worth at least 2 WP (which compares favorably with 12 WP + 33% Status).

Bloody Harp's WP is actually going down to 10.

D) Papyrus Plate has 8 WP, 50% Flare.  In short, a magical equivalent of the climhazzard knives everyone's grown to love or hate.

I'm hesitant about this change.  Flare is too powerful for a 50% proc rate.  For example, on a semi-optimised setup (40-70 BrFa, 15 MA, MAtkUP), Flare will hit for 283~396 damage.  This practically makes the book 1HKO 50% of the time.

C) Genji Gauntlet must be changed because a charging mage has 0 effective MEV and a draw out user or geomancer would clearly prefer the Magic Gauntlet, Red Shoes, or Diamond Armlet.  It should be +1 MA, ignore enemy MEV because as someone pointed out, MEV is no longer as trivial as it was in S6 and a magic team that's being totally blocked by Aegis Shields + Abandon needs an equipment response.  This is also because I have no idea which support abilities FFM can still freely hack.

This sounds kind of broken.  Creating a way to get around M-EV has never been a concern of mine because magic is (a) powerful, (b) can be used from 5~6 tiles away, and (c) usually targets multiple units at once.  There are already a few ways of getting around M-EV:

• Inflict Don't Act (with Talk Skill or a weapon)


• Break the shield or steal the accessory


• Use a spell that ignores M-EV (e.g. certain summons, Flare)

The best strategy, however, is to simply mix physical offense with magic offense.

C) I may be biased here but you all overnerfed -ton last time.  ...[T]here's a fundamental imbalance between a wizard (with higher base MA to a squire's PA or a monk's effective PA since he can't use hats) than a physical job ... Furthermore, ninjitsu doesn't even have AoE, so there's even less rationale for justifying MEV.  Instead of insuring "parity" between -ton and Nether Spells (when the classes and spells themselves are just too different), the correct comparisons should be with physical equivalents like Wave Fist, Cover Fire, and Earth Slash ... Hence, a system restore is in order:
-ton: Y = 11, DEFUP, unevade, Reflect (15 MP)

First of all, many of us agree that Tons are weak at the moment.  For this reason, we are buffing them (just not back to 1.37 levels as you propose at the end of the quote).  The three Tons are being variegated:  Suiton ignores reflect and evasion but receives a damage nerf, Meiton does not trigger reaction abilities, and Fuuton receives a damage buff.

Tons are not comparable to Black Magic and Punch Art.  Black Magic and Punch Art require 70 faith and brave, respectively, so their users weaken themselves to damage of like types.  On the other hand, Tons require low faith, so their users are typically impervious to magic.  In other words, it's safer to use Tons than Black Magic or Punch Art.

D) I think Kagesougi right now is still pretty overpowered.

Yep.  We all do.  It's losing is Don't Act proc and having its MP cost increased for a start.  Merging it with Hokouton hasn't been considered.  Would it retain Hokouton's AoE?

F) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)

Tsumazuku is being replaced with something much more useful: a ranged AoE skill that cancels both Haste and Regen.

[Gaignun]

Double post, but oh well.  Here are a few tweaks in light of recent discussions.

Air Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Wind Elemental, No 2H
FDC raises a good point about Air Knife's worth as a Grand Cross weapon.  This will keep it semi-useful for Grand Cross.

Coral Sword: 8 WP, 10 W-EV, Water Elemental, Strengthen: Water, 25% Cast: Suiton
The 33% proc rate will be pretty broken with Flash Hat.  Proc rate and WP have been adjusted to fix this.

Save the Queen: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
These swords can be paired with perfumes to make super-tanky Paladins.  (e.g. A Paladin with one of these swords and a complementary perfume, Unyielding, and 40 Brave/Faith will cut all damage by roughly two-thirds.)   To balance this, such setups will have no evasion whatsoever.

Slasher: 12 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes 2S
25 W-EV is a little too high for a 12 WP weapon that is dual-wieldable.  At 25 W-EV, dual-wielded slashers with mantles can reach 90% P-EV from the front.

Silver Bow: 13 WP, 10 W-EV, 40% Cast: Holy
This will make Silver Bow more useful on mages.  It will also make Silver Bow the most powerful bow if Archers are willing to risk having 70 brave and faith.

Speed +1: 500 JP
400 JP is honestly too cheap for what will be an amazing movement ability on a skill set with Abandon and Two Swords, two other great RSMs.

Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Frog, 150 JP
I realise that Faith will be an easier status to make use of now that spellguns are being nerfed.  Accordingly, Faith-charged Frog spells will become a thing.  So, instead of boosting the Y value to make this skill more usable, let's lower CT.

[Dokurider]

Since fdc finally blew the whistle on Knives, I'll comment on them since I've been analyzing their strengths for some time.

Yes it's true that if Air Knife and Katar loses it's 2H, it will just be replaced by Orichalcum. But even if we remove Orichalcum's 2H, yet another knife will rise to take it place, Main Gauche. In fact, even if Orichalcum kept it's 2H and current WP, it'll still be eclipsed by Main Gauche. Despite MG's lower WP, it's stuipid high W-Ev will insure that Cursed 2H Thieves will remain in full force. In fact, by removing it's natural predator, Always: Transparent, they'll be even stronger than ever, pissing everyone off even more. Granted, no longer can they gank all but the best of physical tanks, but they make up for it by being harder to hit and thus 25% more annoying than Katar Thieves ever were. So then should we remove all instances of 2H from Knives period? I say no. I think that 2H Thieves should be a thing because it's a unique and exciting strategy and they should still have some fangs behind the concept; they just need to be better balanced.

The core aspect that unbalances 2H Knives are +1 Move. +1 Move makes 2H Knives not just the strongest weapon for Thieves, but if it wasn't for it's damage formula, it would be the strongest melee weapon in the game period. If we added +1 Move to Lionheart, it would be the de facto weapon of melee units that could get their hands on it. Allowing powerful units to dash across the battlefield to stab your White Mage in the back is what breaks Katar; +1 Move and 2H do not mix.

I propose removing +1 Move (and it's 15% W-Ev, probably down to 5%) not just from Katar, but from all knives. I suggest this because to me, the +1 Move aspect of Knives just seems like a bad attempt to make Knives viable, because it does more harm than good. Not all units appreciate +1 Move. Units that were supposed to stay back are now in the front, stabbing Kninjas (Kagesougi Ninjas = Kninjas) with their derpy Platina Knives. This can be built around, but the point is, +1 Move takes what would otherwise be a excellent weapon and sours it for many users and team strategies, most of which are more defensive oriented. Meanwhile, +1 Move for 2H knives and certain 2S knives, power up already powerful builds. Knives no longer need +1 Move anymore, it's just a old crutch now and they are perfectly viable on their own now. (Some of them could probably lose the 15% W-Ev, too)

spoiler

Throwing Knife - Actually quite fine with +1 Move because of it's range will keep the user out of harm's way. It could use a W-Ev drop, maybe. Otherwise, don't touch it.

Dual Cutters - This one can lose the +Move and the Evade, especially given it's upcoming buff.

Repel Knife - An example of a perfectly good weapon squashed by the +1 Move curse. It's actually much more applicable as a defensive weapon than an offensive weapon. Making the enemy back off is more valuable for reversing/recovering momentum than gaining it because having to chase down some Hasted Coward complicates a offense, while it's a life saver on defense. Don't Act immune enemies are also of less consequence for defensive applications than offense. If a weapon of last resort fails to make the saving throw, then oh well better luck next time, while a offensive Repel Knifer running into a Don't Act Immune enemy means he's going to do more harm than good now. Overall it's a great weapon held back by it's yucky drawback and the fact it adds +1 Move shunts it into a offensive role. It can keep it's W-Ev however.

Mage Masher - Derp

Well it's not that bad. It's basically a MP Damage weapon. Used on a Female Ninja, and a little bit of Overwhelm, it can actually be pretty decent as my initial testing showed. Not great though, and if it dies, they I won't miss it too badly. It should lose W-Ev, but without a decent direction for it to move forward, we should just pass on touching the poor thing.

Platina Dagger - In the same boat as Repel Knife, except it's offensive applications have been more successful. As a result, removing it's +1 Move isn't as clean cut as Repel Knife. Overall, I think it should lose it because while it's +1 Move has it's offensive strategies, not having it would make it more applicable to everyone. It's a judgement call and I admit that. Definitely should lose some W-Ev however. (10%)

Main Gauche - Why is this even a 2H weapon? Out of all the knives pre-138, this was the most popular one for obvious reasons. It never needed the buff and it's perfectly fine as a evade booster.

Air Knife - Oh Air Knife, the fun times we had. In the quest to find Hitler's frozen head in Brazil, Air Krieg struck terror in the hearts of the agencies that tried to stop them.  Good times. Yeah, it's fine to make it into a Grand Cross Weapon. It's perfectly viable. *sigh*

RIP Air Knife

Nov 16, 2012-Arena 139

You made Knives worth paying attention to.

She will be missed.

If it becomes a single hand weapon, it doesn't need to lose W-Ev then, because now it has to compete with Ice Brand and Excalibur now. In fact, it could probably keep it's proc.

Katar - It is my sole believe that Katar isn't OP because of it's damage potential (but it doesn't help, even with a inferior formula, it's still Platina Sword+) but because of it's +1 Move lets it become way too invasive. However, I'm facing a dilemma here. I still like the idea of a offensive Knife with +1 Move. I would actually like it if Katar got split into two knives, both 2H. One would give +1 PA, and the other +1 Move. Probably not going to happen, so I would just suggest changing Katar to:
11 WP, +1 Move, 5 W-Ev
This takes some of the bite out of Katar without completely defanging it. I wanted to originally make it a 12 WP weapon and nothing else, but then it would lose out to Platina Sword. This configuration leaves it's high move melee capabilities or what I like to call 'backstabbing', function intact, but takes the edge off of it.

And that leaves me with

Orichalcum- My Katar proposal leaves people that want the +1PA/Move high and dry as a consequence. The only way I can possibly keep that function intact their for everyone will strike some as odd and some as function overloading.

Orichalcum: 9 WP, +1 PA/MA/Move, 0 W-Ev, No 2H/2S

It becomes a stat knife because it's what people use it for anyways. No one's going to miss 2H Orichalcums.

Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Frog, 150 JP
I realise that Faith will be an easier status to make use of now that spellguns are being nerfed.  Accordingly, Faith-charged Frog spells will become a thing.  So, instead of boosting the Y value to make this skill more usable, let's lower CT.

Frog Spamming is already a thing because of Frog immunity is hard to get and Maiden's Kiss gets the triage boot to the face. I guarantee you a decent Frog team can roll most teams right now.

A) Cursed Ring--I have a rather creative solution to this problem.  In my testing vs. Doku's 2H thieves, I found that if units with undead and immune: crystal did not always revive in 3 turns, I would have won at least half my matches.  One particular match stuck out where I scored a technical victory but the CT timer on one of the undead thieves was 100 at 0 death counter and he revived and returned to win it all.  Instead of nerfing stats, why not the mechanic?  In other words, if a unit is undead and is immune to crystal, the chances of reviving when CT timer = -1 should be 50% rather than 100%.  Statistically, this averages to a cursed ring user reviving every 4 turns, but the uncertainty can gnaw on a more cautious player and make the more aggressive undead strategies untenable before a good defense.

I think that could work. It would encourage more diverse units than 'LOL SPEED/MOVE GANK RUSH DOWNS'. I still think it could lose +1 Speed so that Mage strats can work. Doing both would probably require a buff to compensate, but I'm not sure what besides removing the Fire Weakness...

Reflect Gun

The reason why I wanted Coral Sword to have Add: Reflect was because it's Elemental property would let be used as a way to add Reflect to allies as well as enemies (I'm not sure if the AI can see procs, so I question if it'll be used a midcharger) and most importantly, let Mages and their allies block getting Reflected via Water immunity, lending credence to Jade Armlet's new Water Absorb property as a viable defensive accessory. If this Reflect Gun was non-elemental, it would screw Mages over harder than Coral Sword ever would have, because at least the defense option would have been there, at a range no less.

Yeah, this Reflect Gun, provided it gains Water, or if you want to be daring (and make Defense Ring more of a necessary Mage Defense Item than it already is), Ice, or Barren's Faith Gun.

Speaking of Faith, I was going to let this slide so I can hear you guys whine about it next version, but I'm going to be nice and prevent a disaster before it happens:

Gokuu Rod: Ice Elemental, 50% Innocent.

Regardless of what happens to the formula (except staying the same), Gokuu Rod is going to go from a novel way of pissing off mages, but held back by it's damage, to midcharging monster of 139 that you'll all hate. Same principle behind Coral Sword and Iron Fan, it's a team weapon that is perfectly thwartable by corresponding equips. It also makes a neat Main/Sub/Divine(?) Element package that pleases me and more importantly, ups those respective element's body counts in the Weapons Departments (especially Ice)

Kagesougi becoming PA * 8

I like this, provided it still is a Weapon Range skill because I like a skill that works with Two Swords. It would cap Kage bullshit forever, because a lot of weapons got nerfed or are kept under a threshold because of that skill.

Save the Queen: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
These swords can be paired with perfumes to make super-tanky Paladins.  (e.g. A Paladin with one of these swords and a complementary perfume, Unyielding, and 40 Brave/Faith will cut all damage by roughly two-thirds.)   To balance this, such setups will have no evasion whatsoever.

Sure.

Slasher: 12 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes 2S
25 W-EV is a little too high for a 12 WP weapon that is dual-wieldable.  At 25 W-EV, dual-wielded slashers with mantles can reach 90% P-EV from the front.

Also it makes it not competitive with Parry Swords anymore, half the reason why Raven's proposal had them at 20% in the first place.

F) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)

Tsumakuzu is being changed because the AI will not use it for some reason. I swear it was used once, I just can't remember when it was...

I'm going to regret suggesting this but...

Bizen Boat: (PA+MA)/2 * Y

Why do this? Because it'll still allow for powerful Bizen Boating, but at the same time, all the rest of the Draw Outs (especially Chirijiraden use) will suffer for it, which translates to an inability to follow up on knocking out MP Pools with 180 Chiris, thus Bizen Missile types only create openings, not game enders. Bizen Boat should still have a Y value that will replicate Bizen's MP Damage, however, because now the units doing it will have to be more specialized for the job.

Giant Axe should be 11 WP and +1 PA/MA.  The reasoning here is a bit odd, but let's first explain what's wrong with this weapon.  Strengthen Earth + Earth gives it 12.5 effective WP, but the earth elemental seriously reduces its potential as many earth absorb and halve teams exist, so I'd rather use Slasher.  The WP is too low to justify grand cross (when you have air knife and excalibur).  Chiri covers the same niche on samurai, and geomancer, although able to boost some attacks with it, doesn't get a boost on Hell Ivy and Carve Model (the two most common terrains).  Boosting ninjitsu with this is equally awful as the best two ninjitsu classes (monk and squire) can't use this innately.  Hence, this weapon is second best at everything and no job can really usefully fuse any of the above offensive tactics into one class.  Thus, I propose this change to give it a niche with geomancer and Sm-M (with innate 2H).

I like.

Shit this is a long post.

[reinoe]

I'm not really going to comment on too much on how to go about balancing knives because I'm not particularly good at balancing.  But I do think MageMashers, should be allowed to keep all it's traits precisely because of how lackluster it is.  Platina Dagger too.  While there's something of a focus on how potentially damaging it is, let's not forget how often it's a lackluster weapon too.  Platina Dagger is designed to be swingy.  I won't comment on Main Gauche, Orichalcum, Katar, Dual Cutters, or Air Knife. 

But I will say that "One Shotting" an enemy shouldn't be completely eliminated as a strategy. 

[Gaignun]

In fact, by removing it's natural predator, Always: Transparent, they'll be even stronger than ever, pissing everyone off even more.

We aren't removing Hidden Knife to the best of my knowledge.  Even if we did, there's Concentrate to fill its role.

I propose removing +1 Move (and it's 15% W-Ev, probably down to 5%) not just from Katar, but from all knives. I suggest this because to me, the +1 Move aspect of Knives just seems like a bad attempt to make Knives viable, because it does more harm than good. Not all units appreciate +1 Move. Units that were supposed to stay back are now in the front, stabbing Kninjas (Kagesougi Ninjas = Kninjas) with their derpy Platina Knives. This can be built around, but the point is, +1 Move takes what would otherwise be a excellent weapon and sours it for many users and team strategies, most of which are more defensive oriented. Meanwhile, +1 Move for 2H knives and certain 2S knives, power up already powerful builds. Knives no longer need +1 Move anymore, it's just a old crutch now and they are perfectly viable on their own now. (Some of them could probably lose the 15% W-Ev, too)

What about strategies that want lots of Move?  That want to Bust a Move?  That want to Show Me Your Moves?  +1 Move is fine; if you're going for a low-mobility strategy, then equip any other weapon type.  If we remove the Movement bonus, weapon variation will suffer.

The problem is knives' ridiculous damage with Two Hands.  They're supposed to make units slippery and mobile, not turn them into wrecking machines.  That's why I'd like to nerf Orichalcum's and Katar's WP.

If this Reflect Gun was non-elemental, it would screw Mages over harder than Coral Sword ever would have, because at least the defense option would have been there, at a range no less.

The reflect gun would heal on hit.  The only mages it will ever screw over is the user's own.

[Dokurider]

The reflect gun would heal on hit.  The only mages it will ever screw over is the user's own.

Heal on hit, adding statuses? I forsee a problem here. To the best of my knowledge, heal on hit cannot add status.

[Gaignun]

Heal on hit, adding statuses? I forsee a problem here. To the best of my knowledge, heal on hit cannot add status.

Ah, is that so?  I have no idea.

[Dol]

I dont know if this has been suggested before, but would a heavy armor helmet that gives Blind immunity be an option?  I know I've trashed a few of my grand cross team builds that would have been much more effective if I could have both a robe and blind immunity without defaulting to Angel Ring.

[reinoe]

I dont know if this has been suggested before, but would a heavy armor helmet that gives Blind immunity be an option?  I know I've trashed a few of my grand cross team builds that would have been much more effective if I could have both a robe and blind immunity without defaulting to Angel Ring.

Cross Helmet+Diamond Armor.

[formerdeathcorps]

Disagreements with the Proposal:
(I hate to open this can of worms, but it's clear these disagreements will probably widen if I don't explain myself.  All of the below disagreements presuppose my suggestions in the other thread for their rationale.  Since I'd rather not repeat myself, if any contradictions between the proposal and my previous thread or my words below arise, assume my stance is what I wrote rather than what is in the proposal.  Anything that doesn't contradict what I wrote previously that isn't mentioned below are changes I agree with, or at least see no harm in implementing.)

Short Edge's proc is already at 50%, so it is serving its role very well.  WP is dropped to 9 to compensate for its nasty synergy with spellguns, Draw Out, and so forth.

My 33% Oil proc on Short Edge was mostly my concession to people not of my playstyle (as was the 33% Slow proc on Heaven's Cloud), but if you all really want it at 50% and 1 less WP, I would gladly support the results.  Of course, my 33% suggestion was given under the assumption the Oil mechanics still cancel absorb, halve, and null.  Since I'd rather keep the latter effect (and make greased bolt somewhat threatening), if that causes an imbalance, a 33% Oil proc may be for the best at 10 WP.

Indeed, it is seldom used.  We are introducing Genji Helm (Strengthen: Wind, Earth) to help remedy both this and Heaven's Cloud.
Salty Rage is now Always: Berserk

I liked the old Genji Helm as I could create high move PAL or Sm with lethal damage who could then revive / be revived and function in another capacity.  The only reason why I retired my berserker team was that spellguns were too deadly at range.  If we take my range nerf (or your damage nerf to spellguns), I think Genji Helm would become viable again.  For this reason, I cannot support the latter change: it destroys all the flexibility associated with initial:berserk.  I'm not sure if FFM implemented the changes where berserk is supposed to grant you the right to react and evade, but unless he did, this change weakens the item.
Furthermore, the new Genji Helm is still a very niche item.  No Sm or PAL would use it over Chiri-katana except to boost the two weapons listed and even then, it's questionable if that's really better than Asura + Reraise Helm.
Lastly, that equipment change does not address the problem I raised with Kiku's proc requiring a totally different setup than the setup needed to boost Kiku's attack damage.  This is why I think reverting to the Grand Cross model for Kiku would have more general use.

Unfortunately, spellguns are never used under "normal conditions."  If players can boost spellgun damage to 1HKO territory, they invariably will.  In response, we're making spellguns cast Nether spells, which are weaker and cannot be boosted with Pilgrimage.

I actually have many good reasons not to run pilgrimage and/or overwhelm which would guarantee the 1HKO against less tanky non-mages.  Doing so means no MHPUP, 70 faith, and a gaping hole in either my magic defense or my status defense as I cannot run both reflect and shell on archer, chemist, or mediator.  It doesn't quite help that the three native gun classes all take second strike vs. a mage (9 SP vs. 8), meaning a more defensive setup mage or a projectile guard mage can stop my plans.
The reasons why the current metagame is still favoring the max-damage setup are unevade + unreflect + non-charged first strike at mage range + the ability to run a max damage setup alongside a HP, elem-absorb, and/or evade setup, which first-strike incapaciates / KOs frail units (especially mages) on small maps and has similarly lethal effects on large maps (due to pilgrimage) while retaining the ability to tank.  I really think that taking one of the three factors away is enough to make the risks sufficient for balance on non-small maps vs. non-mages.  That's why I propose 4 range and now am adding 2H (to put archer on the same level as mediator and chemist and kills the evasion setup max damage elem-gun archer), though I am aware mage teams will still face a fairly stiff counter, as will any slow team on a small map.
As for the nether gun proposal...if you all do that and don't retain current base damage levels, then 2H would not be needed, but the new guns will be as bad as they were before S6.  Honestly, I'd go back to using a stone gun except on the aforementioned evasion setup tank archer.

Bloody Harp's WP is actually going down to 10.

The way I see it...Blood Harp is 12.5 WP if 10 WP while the other two harps at 12 WP + Effect are at 13-13.5 WP.  I proposed Blood Harp at 11 WP mostly as a means of parity.

I'm hesitant about this change.  Flare is too powerful for a 50% proc rate.  For example, on a semi-optimised setup (40-70 BrFa, 15 MA, MAtkUP), Flare will hit for 283~396 damage.  This practically makes the book 1HKO 50% of the time.

To be honest, so am I, but flare proc inherently will have that problem.  Anything not as unpredictably strong as at least 35-40% 1HKO chance will not be used at all.  For an equally shocking effect, I guess we could try something like a healing book with 33% quick chance?

There are already a few ways of getting around M-EV:

Your suggestions are quite valid, as I use many of those means myself.  I only proposed this secondary effect to cater to the players who want to run 4 damage mages.  However, I cannot agree with you on the assessment of circumventing M-EV as broken.  I don't think they'll become broken as a result of this(*), because the 4 mage attack still has too many counters.
Maybe it's just a difference of style, but for all my offensive teams, I assume I can counter evasion by my attacks or I can force the enemy into an evasion-less state.  Hence, I would consider the effect of Ignore: M-EV on my mages to be way less useful than Initial:Reflect, Strengthen: All, Absorb: Element X, or Always: Shell.  The only unit I'd seriously consider it for is a draw out unit, and even then, Initial: Reraise + Murasame + Overwhelm is probably better against the spread as ignoring M-EV is really only useful against teams like yours, mine, and Raven's.  Similarly, my defensive teams are built to be so solid on defense that ignoring M-EV isn't going to suddenly break their defense; in fact, I'd say without concentrate and items like this in the metagame, a team like LOSERS is nearly unbeatable.
Of course, if my above reasons lead you all to think such an effect is either too niche, too useless, or too polarizing, feel free to propose a better effect.
(*) I am implicitly assuming, of course, that the damage on Bizen Boat and spell guns remain unchanged and Refute stops charging.  If that is not the case, then yes, such an item would verge much closer to being broken.

For this reason, we are buffing them (just not back to 1.37 levels as you propose at the end of the quote).  The three Tons are being variegated:  Suiton ignores reflect and evasion but receives a damage nerf, Meiton does not trigger reaction abilities, and Fuuton receives a damage buff.

Tons are not comparable to Black Magic and Punch Art.  Black Magic and Punch Art require 70 faith and brave, respectively, so their users weaken themselves to damage of like types.  On the other hand, Tons require low faith, so their users are typically impervious to magic.  In other words, it's safer to use Tons than Black Magic or Punch Art.

1) I'll concede that I went too far here, as forcing 40 faith units to run reflect to block ninjitsu is a bit harsh.  The unlikeliness of that setup means ninjitsu only lost Y = 0.5 points of effectiveness from that.
2) That being said, I'd still say Ninjitsu in S6 is at most above-average, but not broken.  Neither AeroGP nor I won S6 despite having such powerful ninjitsu teams, and Avalanche beat me despite running two units with Initial:Innocent.
3) Even if adjusted Y = 10.5 for a UnFa + unevade + unreflect attack is too high, an adjusted Y = 8 spell (which is what you are currently suggesting) is much too low.  Even if you assume AoE is canceled out by MEV (which is a VERY generous assumption since average MEV is not high) on the equivalent mage Nether spell (i.e. Nether Water), Nether Water > Suiton because mages still have more XA.
4) The added security argument of 40 faith is self-defeating because the more ninjitsu damage becomes as a threat, the less safe 40 faith becomes and the more one is forced to run reflect, MEV, DEFUP or Protect.  Of course, of those, the latter two are clearly superior as they allow a 70 Fury setup.
5) Your changes didn't really fix the average Y; all you did to the average ninjitsu (Meiton with Y = 9) is add Anti-Counter.  There are two resulting problems:
A) The best -ton class is Monk, but from my experience, damage setup Mk / Nj with Shuriken really fears no reaction other than HP Restore, which I cannot really predict for.
B) If I also run Shuriken, then the AI will only use meiton when the enemy faith is low.  If we combine your monk and ninja changes, Mk / Nj will only use ninjitsu over monk skills when the enemy's brave is also low.  But if both of those are low, their reaction rate is correspondingly lowered, making the effect less useful.
6) As a compromise, here's what I suggest:
Fuuton, Y = 11, MEV, reflect, takes DEFUP (15 MP)
Meiton, Y = 10, MEV, unreflect, takes DEFUP (8 MP)
Suiton, Y = 9, unevade, unreflect, takes DEFUP (12 MP)

It's losing is Don't Act proc and having its MP cost increased for a start.  Merging it with Hokouton hasn't been considered.  Would it retain Hokouton's AoE?

After some more thought, the only thing Kagesougi would gain is a SP * 8 damage formula that takes martial arts as well as ATKUP; everything else is meant to remain the same (including the DA proc).  From the AI's perspective, as long as the HP flag is also retained, it will not use this skill unless it does more than weapon damage (which is likely impossible without martial arts); thus, Kagesougi will only be used as damage option on martial arts users with weapons, SP optimized, low Faith, magic gunners, healing weapon users. blood sword / lance / harp users vs. undead, climhazzard knife users, and bag users.  All of the above are really niche, near unusable, or martial arts / Kagesougi hampers the damage output or weapon proc.  Maximum damage is capped at [15 * 3/2] * 8 * 2 = 352 at 1 range, which should be fair enough given how poorly armored that ninja is.

Tsumazuku is being replaced with something much more useful: a ranged AoE skill that cancels both Haste and Regen.

I'm not sure Masamune is still that dominating.  My trials showed that one unit was stuck on masamune duty for most of the match unless he was fast, had a 1HKO, or I ran two masamune units.  In short, you either run Avalanche's masamune ninjas, my modified S5/S6 samurais (capable of heavy 1HKO weapon attacks and masamune), or double up on 8 SPD masamune spammers (like I did on my less creative teams and rather easy to counter teams).
That being said, given proper CT synchronization, your change is a very hard counter to masamune, haste, and yell teams, trapping them in a dead-loss loop.  I think only properly sync'd Haste2 teams can avoid this fate, and just only barely.
However, Raven's warning seems to apply here.  This seems too specialized, designed really to stop one skill (masamune), with incidental effects on other skills (haste, yell, nurse--though any decently armored paladin comes out on top here), and minimal effect other than chip damage on other skills (haste2, regen, etc.)  I still think my suggestion (giving Bullrush to squire as lots of damage + remove haste [AND regen, if you'd like] without recoil) + the new ninja skill may be more general.
For those of you confused by my notation, I'm essentially suggesting that tsumakuzu gets deleted and we create a new ninja skill that has the targeting range of a Tiamat's Triple Attack (i.e. 3 / 4 squares around the user), deals PA * WP damage, takes weapon elemental but not 2S/2H, and is unevadable.  It should cost 12 MP because I trade the 1 range of southern cross for unevadability (which is worth slightly more).

Hidden Knife SP bonus removal
Sasuke Knife deletion

Once Kagesougi is nerfed, the first nerf is utterly unnecessary.  I can understand someone being uneasy at a +1 SP item being 2Sable, but if that's the case, retaining Sasuke Knife shouldn't be a problem.

Iga / Koga elemental changes

Why is this necessary?  Isn't wind already one of the weakest of the elements in terms of weapons?  Or is it because thief hat too easily blocks the combo?  Considering that this is combo can deal ~390 damage at maximum power, is that really a bad thing?

Lionheart evasion bonus

Just as a minor quibbler (feel free to totally ignore this), but as I pointed out earlier, mages and physicals are nonequivalent objects.  Because mages have less HP on average, they need more PEV from weapons that boost their skills.  Hence, there's no need for exact parity between these swords and I'd probably like it better if there wasn't.

Save the Queen changes
Ragnarok changes
Persia changes
Cashmere changes

This is an awful idea.  I'd rather keep them at 16 WP (and the corresponding veils at 12) because they were balanced by Raven to deal exactly the same amount of damage (288 before fury calculations) at a max PA setup.  I still remember when Wiz pretty much made that equivalent setup back when veils had Always: Protect/Shell on them at 10 WP.  His nameless / slow dance spamming combination was so awful to watch and so hard to beat we were forced to nerf veils to initial: protect/shell.  I don't want to see a return to a similar nadir in Arena mechanics.
(By the way, the reason why a similar mechanic isn't broken on accessories is that steal:accessory has a much higher hit rate than weapon break and accessory slots have far more options, so the opportunity cost of running Always: X over boosting damage is higher on a non-tank setup).

Excalibur changes
Defender changes

Giving Excalibur effectively 17 WP is just asking for trouble with grand cross.  Similarly, without the corresponding changes to Save the Queen and Ragnarok, Defender's changes make no sense.

Axe changes

Killing the whole point of the battle axe seems overdone.  A low damage squad like Losers needs a way of finishing opponents (and mind you, the damage on Losers was so bad that the decap proc often didn't even accomplish that and would sometimes trigger HP Restore) and I think the metagame would be better off if there were means of KOs that you cannot block but don't happen very often, simply to give tanking teams vitality (without reducing the damage to the point where tanking becomes the only good strategy).   Mind you, Losers, like Y U SO DERP before it, should be beatable due to the introduction of new mechanics like concentrate and increased use of breaks.
Also, now that Knives are being totally changed away from being the 2H weapons and certain swords are getting nerfed, is there any reason why the Slasher needs any changes from the version in S7?

Stone Gun changes

This makes no sense, really.  Maximum damage of 192 after ATKUP isn't broken, even if the damage is unevadable and you run an evasion + HP setup archer + warpath.  The bonuses are nice, but really are hardly stronger than the ninjitsu evasion bots I ran on Heresy (right after the Heretic Ring nerf).  I say this because my Heresy squires trade early game offense (of innocent) for late game offense (of warpath + 1st turn de-petrify) and back then, the maximum and starting damage of ninjitsu vs. stone gun is similar.  The fact that your squad may desert the stone gun archer on a small map and your first turn's offense is hampered is enough risk to justify keeping it at a late-game balance level similar to S6's ninjitsu because many teams will not get there alive.

Gastofitis Changes

I certainly appreciate the massive you boost you are suggesting to Gastrofitis, but is this necessary?  I really think this weapon is being underused because of kagesougi + perseus bow, but both of those are being nerfed, so...I'm unsure on this one.

Silver Bow change

I think the weapon we're trying to have it in parity with is a self-strengthening excalibur where we trade mage synergy for grand cross synergy (since both are 2H weapons).  Similarly, it must be competitive with spellguns (assuming my refusal to change their damage); hence, 13 WP should still be paired with +2 MA so mages are properly compensated for
A) Using EQ Ranged over MATKUP
B) Using Longbow over Spellgun

Longbow and Perseus Bow changes

Thinking about it some more, I think the Longbow is being neglected.  +1 Move actually doesn't cut it, as except for first strike, archers have little need for more move (outside of item-bot setups, but +1 SP is better still).  I suggest instead +1 PA.  That way, the balance vs. the mythril bow is more apparent; +1 Range and +1 PA in the AI's hands is about the same as the first strike bonuses / item-bot synergies of +1 SP.  Instead, the perseus bow can keep 16 WP but no PA boost.

Iron Fan changes

I'm not sure why Doku wanted this one, but I'm sure he can answer it better than me.

P Bag change

I'm not sure why this needs changing, but if we making Quick Book instead of Flare Book, I don't think this will be necessary.

Cross Helmet HP boost
MP boosts to all the 90 HP+ gears
HP boosts to all the +max stats gears

All these changes shift balance in the wrong direction.
1) The whole point of cross helm was to use MP costs on physical jobs as a limiter of how many times they could spam their skills.  In short, the cross helm previously granted crap HP bonuses because it was intended to force knights into accepting either subpar HP or insufficient MP.  Similar balance restrictions on archer and ninja were fundamentally why equips like Golden Hairpin and Green Beret retained their value despite being obviously outclassed.  This is why the only acceptable bonus to black hood and brigandine is more HP (unless FFM wants to code unbreakability to the items instead).
2) Similarly, adding more HP bonuses to +max PA/MA/SP gear essentially lessens the penalty for running a max-power setup, i.e. the risk of getting 1HKO'd in return.  You should risk a 1HKO if you run a 253 HP ninja whose sole purpose is to deal massive damage.

Golden Hairpin nerf

This is entirely uncalled for considering that the only really dangerous units still using this are Barren's Koutetsu Draw OUt user (from Big Assault) and my holy spammer (from S6 / Raiders).  With the advent of the new Cursed Ring, however, these one-dimensional attack units now have fairly hard counters in undead foes (especially those with reflect) or increased M-EV in general.

Headband and Monk changes

These go together.
As someone who used monks for most of my time playing Arena, I can tell you that they are a very steady class capable of dealing hard to stop damage, BUT have serious limitations.
A) Monks are the only physical class that play like wizards in that they are completely skill dependent and utterly shut down by berserk (unless you want to lower your damage output or HP by not equipping a bag or by equipping the Chakra Ribbon, which is useless outside of Grand Cross sets).  Of course, the monk trades instant cast for AoE (on the most part), and being blocked by PEV (which is higher than MEV on average) for having no MP cost.
B) Monks cannot tank well without sacrificing damage or variety due to the high Fury requirement to deal damage + the total lack of evasion from their weapons + no hats (so no thief hat for elemental defense + SP stacking and only 11 effective PA since no twist headband).
C) Monks are very poor participants in any kind of elemental healing (the most effective kind) outside of earth slash, which does not heal themselves.  Their PA makes them fair users of grand cross, but the output is still pretty bad without kikuichimoji being what it was in S6 or excalibur.  Another idea is southern cross + chaos blade or southern cross / new ninja triple attack PA * WP skill + perseus bow (after nerfs, or I'd obviously be suggesting kagesougi) / gastrofitis , which deals more raw damage with some range, but your monk won't last as long.
D) 9 SPD monks are a blessing and a curse.  9 SPD gives a hasted monk's effective 11 SPD and the ability to jump on 8 SPD units as well as dangerous first-strike attacks on enemy 8 SPD units + healing / revive (assuming you're on perfectly flat terrain, of course) of ally 8 SPD units who'll then immediately get a turn, but unless you run the full offensive setup, you won't score a KO.  Then the curse of 9 SPD becomes apparent; Monk is often dependent on HP REstore to survive attacks from attacking 10 SPD heavy offense (especially archers) or a 8 SPD charging mage, 2H paladin or samurai, or jumping lancer.  This is why the 4 monk attack is suicide (while the 4 wizard, archer, or even lancer attack is passable).
E) As someone who did spam battle song + monk, I will tell you that the threat of the quadratic monk formula is overhyped.  Without innate:martial arts, monk is not as a strong as it's made out to be.  An immobile bard + 3 monks is an absolute failure because monk has 9 SP and you can only have 2 users of HP Restore and MHPUP / Chakra / Revive.  (That didn't even make it out of my testing phase, though I think I may need to retest with the existence of the new cursed ring.)  Two immobile bards + 2 monks seems plausible until you run into a team that has a user with DA / berserk / DS all on the same unit or can attack for high magical damage and then you'll be totally wrecked.  Hence, the only reasonable strategy is 2 monks with sing alongside two 2H units (i.e. my Test B team), but that isn't a surefire path for accumulating PA because the monks will charge into combat rather than sing all the time (but if you don't allow the monks to do that, you're really fighting 2v4 with random damage axes and limited revival ability).  Granted, I haven't tested all the permutations and if you can create a version with one immobile bard that doesn't fail horribly against a well-built 4 man attack, I'll revise my view (but I suspect with the pending Kagesougi, Perseus Bow, Cursed Ring changes, it probably won't happen).
F) Monk's chief draw as a secondary on classes like Squire, Dancer, and Lancer is that it provides healing, revival, and specialty damage all in one package on a class capable of matching a monk's PA.  Earth Slash stacks well on an earth elemental team.  Spin Fist on Squire or Lancer functions like a physical equivalent of a draw out and covers holes in the unit's skillset.  Repeating Fist provides a reliable way to hammer opponents.  PA Save actually only somewhat works on the lancer because all the other ones have 70 fury and < 300 HP, making it very hard to tank while dealing enough initial damage to match the monk due to the quadratic damage formula (making HP Restore + Cherche a better choice), which is one of the reasons I switched to Mk / Bd in the first place.
With these as the base points of reference, I think monk is actually pretty average.  Let's go through the changes:
1) Giving monk MP costs on all his offensive skills forces too many other changes down the line.  This is not because of the necessary balancing act that will now result in creating a monk (as monk's MP reserves are sufficient and monk has chakra), but because doing makes it impossible to predictably counter bizen boat users by physical skills (which are typically more varied and harder to block than physical weapons on a unit basis).  SA's current research in AI shows the AI will consider MP breaking not just as a midcharging skill, but as a precaution against units who have a majority of skills that are either silenceable or require MP (I forget which).  In short, giving monk skills MP cost essentially makes nerfing bizen boat's output (rather than its AoE or even its evadability) necessary.  Since I'd rather give bizen boat the targeting of southern cross but leave everything else as is, monk needs to at least have 2 skills without MP costs.
2) One change that does greatly benefit monk is making the monk attacks PA * Y because it increases the damage on the monk subclass (because you all scaled the damage as if PA = 17-18) and thus, its use outside of Lancer / Squire / Dancer.  Adding elemental is even more useful since it increases team synergy.  However, I do agree that if spin fist and RF were PA * Y, they'd need a MP cost simply for parity with ninjitsu (if nothing else).
3) However, Mk / Nj should have the greatest possible synergy possible (meaning the elements between the two should not overlap to make the combined options harder to elementally block) and changing the elemental on earth slash actually counts as a nerf as the easiest option for boosting a monk's attack is earth clothes, killing a decent team strategy in using a permutation of Earth Dragon + Quake + Kiku + Earth Slash.  Although somewhat obvious and decently strong, the above synergy really isn't broken because the enemy can block it with float and disrupt it with oil (assuming no changes to oil).  Similarly, making Repeating Fist any elemental counts as a nerf (especially earth elemental, which is easily blocked by float) because you're saying that there exists a way to completely block the damage when the whole point of the attack was to guarantee physical damage at close range.  I'd rather risk HP Restore or Damage Split than lose the very basis of why the monk class is important (the ability to threaten steady damage that can be lessened, but not entirely stopped).
4) The headband changes make no sense.  The old headbands, although slightly unoriginal, serve their purpose well.  The 80 / 80 headband is perfect for ninjitsu and cover fire monk.  The 80 / 0 headband was useless for me, but I'm not a defensive player.  The 70 / 0 headband was perfect for grand cross.  The fact Null: Innocent is even being suggested now that Ninja gets Heretic and Mk / Nj is a good physical damage combination shows the lack of understanding of how monk works in the design of the headbands.
5) Given all of the above, I think this would be more fair:
Spin Fist: (Old Formula)
Repeating Fist (Old Formula)
Secret Fist (Old Formula)
Freezing Fist: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_B(PA*9), Ice Element, 250 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.
Earth Slash: 5 Range, Linear, 2 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(PA*8), Earth Element, 350 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.
...all other skills following the proposal...
Focus Band (80 / 70; Null: Berserk---removes the key weakness of Mk / Ninjitsu or Sing or Cover Fire)
Chakra Band (70 / 40; Null: Blind, Slow, Poison, Silence, Undead, Charm, Oil---removes the key weakness of weapon Mk [blind], Mk / PAL [oil, blind and in particular, kiyomori] )
Choice Band (40 / 0; Null: DM, DA, Death, DS, Frog, Petrify, Stop, Sleep---gives Monk a definite role as THE anti-mediator / anti-stall offense class and removes all the long-range means of incapacitating a 2S monk with stigma magic
Notice that I didn't really address any of monk's other inherent weaknesses.  This is intentional as I intend to retain that disparity as a balance tool; i.e. by trading his right to evade hits and his right to adequately defend, he gains the right to deal steady and somewhat threatening damage without worrying too much about status.  Choice Band's reduced HP bonus means that anti-mediator monk on a full PA, 2S set is running < 300 HP, which is standard for all other unit physical attack units and should prevent serious balance issues.

Silk Robe changes

Mages barely have enough HP as is.  Nor are paladins and lancers so broken that an extra 5 HP is turning a 2HKO into a 3HKO in the average case.

Power Wrist changes

I prefer mine as 15 P/M-EV makes units more adaptable vs. the spread rather than only blocking physicals.

Defense Ring, Jade Armlet swaps

I really don't care what you call these items, but Absorb: Water needs to be paired with Null: Silence, Berserk, ??? because Raven and I meant for that to be the armlet to encourage the use of water elemental on wizard and scholar (and create the conditions for team-wide water absorb) + give casters a means of blocking their two biggest obstacles in one piece of gear.  That core of effects shouldn't be taken apart as it's not even remotely broken (especially if oil is left unchanged and so many people fear the semi-permanence of silence and berserk).
If we call Defense Ring: Absorb: Water, Null: Silence, Berserk, Stop, then Jade Armlet should be Null: Ice, Dead, DS, Petrify, Sleep, Slow.

Wish Range increase

I fear it may be stronger than PD now.  Can we please make this skill line of sight / direct so PD isn't entirely overshadowed, or was that the point of Squire (an odd mix of above average and underpowered skills that properly belong in other skillsets) in the first place?

Auto Potion decrease

Although I argued for no more than 70 when it was first re-released into Arena, 80 hasn't exactly broken the game either.  With Mime now able to absorb Lore (from gaining equips and all), would it really be a good idea to do this?

Hawkeye MP increase

Since I'd rather not change oil, this can rise as high as 18.

Cure4 healing decrease

What is the reason for this?  The original Cure4's healing effect should not be decreased, as it's still the best way to heal a high faith unit through reflect, which on a defensive magical status team, or a SC'd faith rod team, are staples of the defense.

Summoner changes

I think Titan doesn't need the change as it was created as part of the same "group" as Leviathan and Salamander (rather than the same group as Ifrit / Shiva / Ramuh) and the idea was that +1 AoE + 20% Status = 5/4x power increase.
Similarly, Bahamut I think was supposed to be the summoner equivalent of flare, and thus, has the same charge time, but I'm mostly indifferent here as I prefer Zodiac / odin + mime.
It should be noted that the proc on Silf is 20%Add: DA, DM, OR Silence.

Bad Luck changes

Quit taking weapons from the stall teams.  Bad Luck as it originally stood was fine and unique because it had the chance of KOing someone or stopping them, two effects you rarely see (and thus, rarely prepare for), but the other effects were mostly situational (and thus, the 33% rate of outright messing someone up + 66% chance of a conditional effect stopped it from being too unfair).  Although the new Bad Luck is certainly more likely to proc something useful, it's also too similar to Mediator (and thus, much easier to block, especially with my monk changes) and doesn't have the coverage oil, silence, slow, and dead provided against a variety of units.

Asura: No longer ignores allies

With mime being boosted, this may not actually be a good change.  Yes, it makes fire absorb teams stronger, but they already had large AoE fire spells from wizard for healing.  Furthermore, this change actually makes Asura less usable on mimes as Asura was the primary mimed draw out (after masamune, murasame, and muramasa) precisely because it didn't harm allies.  Lastly, we create a draw out (asura) that is outclassed in every other way by all the other draw outs (koutetsu has more range, chiri has more damage, muramasa has more damage + proc for less range, heaven's cloud has a proc, etc).

Refute changes
Bizen Boat changes
Heretic on Ninja
Misogi addition to ninja
Preach
Solution

1) Maybe the person who designed this can explain this better, but other than MP restraints, why does Misogi get rid of Faith if Heretic does the same thing?  Furthermore, what does this do that stigma magic, refute, or heal can't do (and in particular, why was silence chosen when none of the ninjitsu skills have anything to do with silence) other than the fact ninja no longer needs a Squire / Mediator / Monk secondary?  In short, Misogi seems to be a move that was just stuck in the ninja skillset for no reason.
2) What if we gave ninja the Solution skill rather than either Heretic or Misogi?  Of course, the formula would probably be adjusted to (SP + 70)% with a MP cost of at least 5, but I think that would be an acceptable way of creating a "new midcharge" of mages (one that very few mages are prepared to block, shuts down the faith rod bonus, exposes them to -ton).  This is balanced by the fact it doesn't entirely prevent their spell from going through, so spell procs may still occur, making it the weakest of the midcharging methods and thus allowing for the nerfs to both Refute and Bizen Boat to proceed.  Otherwise, I fear that nerfing both Bizen Boat and Refute without giving Solution to a class that spams it effectively will give mages too much leeway.  My thoughts on how to nerf Bizen Boat (and how not to) have already been noted.  Mediator cannot spam solution effectively because it has far more effective choices in DA, Sleep, and Stop (recently added) and mediator derives no skillset synergy for doing so.
3) Faith has the use of boosting an ally's spell or weakening an enemy's magic defense, but the AI really does not know how to use the latter proactively.  To address the latter issue, can we make it a proc on dia?  We already have the blind proc off grand cross, bad luck, and kagesougi; no need to repeatedly spam it.
That being said, we do not need to delete preach because the AI will use it if
A) 9-10 SPD lore or haste2 user doesn't complete the spell before the turn of an ally 9 SPD mediator.
B) 8 SPD flare or bahamut (at 7 CT) user does not complete the spell before the turn of an ally 9-10 SPD mediator with haste.  In fact, it's the latter that forces preach to remain on the mediator job because once refute no longer cancels charging, it can be used by the mediator to tune up the caster by refute (if the caster is DA'd or silenced) or preach (if the caster is fine).
Of course, this means preach needs a hit chance of (MA + 70)% to ensure reliability.

Last Song / Dance boosts

Now that mime is a viable class with its own equips, I really do not think this is a good idea.

Status Changes

This requires a good deal of ASM hacking, but aside from that:
1) The nerf to oil's effect neuters the entire idea of blocking a team's elemental synergy to only blocking items like white robe and thief hat.
2) Poison and Regen aren't really broken, mind you.  I don't see Kiyomori or Poison or Regen spam being any more popular now than it was in S6.
3) Berserk and Silence should not be as much a concern for mages now that at least one piece of gear nulls both with a decent team synergy effect and 100% silence weapons are removed.  Berserk and Blind similarly shouldn't bother anyone unduly now that
A) We aren't nerfing spellgun damage.
B) Monk related changes

[Gaignun]

Yikes.  This is going to take awhile.  I thought The Damned's posts were long...

I liked the old Genji Helm as I could create high move PAL or Sm with lethal damage who could then revive / be revived and function in another capacity.  The only reason why I retired my berserker team was that spellguns were too deadly at range.  If we take my range nerf (or your damage nerf to spellguns), I think Genji Helm would become viable again...  Furthermore, the new Genji Helm is still a very niche item. 

The Genji Helm is about making Heaven's Cloud (Draw Out) worth using, and making Samurai worth using for Draw Out in general. 

There is already Salty Rage for Auto Berserk.  It's better to add a new niche than duplicate an existing one.

No Sm or PAL would use it over Chiri-katana except to boost the two weapons listed and even then, it's questionable if that's really better than Asura + Reraise Helm.

C Bag + Genji Helm is going to be more powerful than Chirijiraden + Circlet.  And yeah, there's also boosting of Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji.  That's two good reasons in my book.

Lastly, that equipment change does not address the problem I raised with Kiku's proc requiring a totally different setup than the setup needed to boost Kiku's attack damage.  This is why I think reverting to the Grand Cross model for Kiku would have more general use.

The Quake proc exists to add a little bonus damage on top of what is already a powerful weapon.  It's like Ice Brand's Ice 2 proc.  I don't think it's ever been about maximising attack and proc damage concurrently.

I actually have many good reasons not to run pilgrimage and/or overwhelm which would guarantee the 1HKO against less tanky non-mages.  Doing so means no MHPUP, 70 faith, and a gaping hole in either my magic defense or my status defense as I cannot run both reflect and shell on archer, chemist, or mediator.

Unfortunately, you are not everyone, FDC.  Max damage spellguns are prevalent.  There's little need to cover holes in your defense when you make the opposing team spend all its time healing.

As for the nether gun proposal...if you all do that and don't retain current base damage levels, then 2H would not be needed, but the new guns will be as bad as they were before S6.  Honestly, I'd go back to using a stone gun except on the aforementioned evasion setup tank archer.

Yeah, it's not going to be a showstopper anymore, and that's the point.  No weapon with innate concentration should be crippling its targets with every use.  That being said, it will indeed be more useful than 1.37 guns:

• It can be used on turtling teams, as 40 Br maximises its power


• It can be combined with Oil for big damage.  (Oil as we know it didn't exist in 1.37.)

I mean, I went pretty far with a Blast Gun Chemist in S1, and I had to cover the Chemist's 70 faith with Setiemson for it.  If Blast Gun used Unbrave, I could have kept his faith lower.

As for comparison to Stone Gun, spellguns can also be used on absorption teams, whereas Stone Gun cannot.

M-EV-ignoring accessory

My complaint is that an accessory that ignores M-EV, and grants 1 MA to boot, is just too good.  We want to give people more reasons to invest in M-EV, not fewer.  M-EV is one of the most trusted counters to status magic.  Create this accessory, and I guarantee that we'll see Faith Rod + Magic Concentrate units with Short Charge frogging and sleeping everyone to death.  Draw Out certainly doesn't need buffing, either.

This isn't about parity with other accessories.  This is about common sense.

2) That being said, I'd still say Ninjitsu in S6 is at most above-average, but not broken.  Neither AeroGP nor I won S6 despite having such powerful ninjitsu teams, and Avalanche beat me despite running two units with Initial:Innocent.

AeroGP didn't make it very far because he went super-meta against Tons, the very abilities whose threat you are downplaying.  As for your team, if memory serves, you made it quite far.  Wasn't your team's weakness defense, anyway?  I remember your sole raise 2 user was a 17 MA scholar.

4) The added security argument of 40 faith is self-defeating because the more ninjitsu damage becomes as a threat, the less safe 40 faith becomes and the more one is forced to run reflect, MEV, DEFUP or Protect.  Of course, of those, the latter two are clearly superior as they allow a 70 Fury setup.

I don't follow.  Investing in 70 Faith makes you susceptible to other 70 Faith setups, too, and there are a lot more spells with Faith formulae than Unfaith formulae.

5) Your changes didn't really fix the average Y; all you did to the average ninjitsu (Meiton with Y = 9) is add Anti-Counter.

You can only use one Ton at a time, right?  If you are against teams with no wind resistance and you use Fuuton, that's a Y buff of 1.

A) The best -ton class is Monk, but from my experience, damage setup Mk / Nj with Shuriken really fears no reaction other than HP Restore, which I cannot really predict for.

Yeah, the Meiton buff is the weakest of the three.

B) If I also run Shuriken, then the AI will only use meiton when the enemy faith is low.  If we combine your monk and ninja changes, Mk / Nj will only use ninjitsu over monk skills when the enemy's brave is also low.

You're assuming the Monk will invest his JP in both Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  I don't think there's enough JP for that to begin with.  Even if there is, I'd say the Ninjutsu serves a role: taking down tanky 40 BrFa teams.

Kibaku Fuda stuff

Kibaku Fuda's optimised damage is ~160.  In addition, it will become Ninjutsu's sole AoE ability.  That makes it not-so-specialised, in my opinion.  Alas, we must wait to see how well the AI uses it.

Once Kagesougi is nerfed, the [nerf to Hidden Knife] is utterly unnecessary.

Hidden Knife was a problem long before 1.38 Kagesougi.  It is used in almost every two-sword setup, and it is the sole reason why Ninja never bother to equip Concentrate.  This nerf has been a long time coming.

Why [are Iga/Koga knife changes] necessary?  Isn't wind already one of the weakest of the elements in terms of weapons?  Or is it because thief hat too easily blocks the combo?  Considering that this is combo can deal ~390 damage at maximum power, is that really a bad thing?

I think this is Raven's change.  I think it is indeed because of Thief Hat.

[Save the Queen and Ragnarok changes are] awful idea.

Noted.  Do you have a better proposal for Save the Queen and Ragnarok?  They aren't exactly making waves.

Giving Excalibur effectively 17 WP is just asking for trouble with grand cross.

The change is to make Excalibur useful for something other than Grand Cross.  The current Excalibur deals less damage than Chaos Blade.  What's more, Excalibur does not dispel buffs on hit like Chaos Blade.

I didn't think the change is such a problem given that Ice Brand + Kaiser Plate is just as powerful  and adds M-EV on the side. 

[The Stone Gun nerf] makes no sense, really.  Maximum damage of 192 after ATKUP isn't broken, even if the damage is unevadable and you run an evasion + HP setup archer + warpath.  The bonuses are nice, but really are hardly stronger than the ninjitsu evasion bots I ran on Heresy (right after the Heretic Ring nerf). 

(Maximum damage is actually 211 (70v70 Br), but regardless:) What other weapon deals this much unevadable damage from 6 range on a class with 9 SP, all the while requiring no stat maximisation?  None.  The closest comparison is Ultimus Bow (214 damage at 70v70 Br), and that requires Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, and Bracer.  Of course, you get no shield, either.

There isn't much to gain comparing the damage to 1.37 Ninjutsu, given that Ninjutsu was nerfed for precisely the same reason.

[Silver Bow] must be competitive with spellguns (assuming my refusal to change their damage); hence, 13 WP should still be paired with +2 MA so mages are properly compensated for

Differences about spellguns notwithstanding, making the weapon useable on mages is one thing.  Making the weapon not break the game is another.  Looking at the math, +2 MA will make a 40% Cast: Holy Silver Bow overwhelmingly powerful.  Here are optimised setups:

Male Archer
70 BrFa, 9 SP, 14 PA, (4+2) MA, Holy Strengthening, Attack UP
Weapon+Proc: 292~409
Average: 239~335

Male Bard
70 BrFa, 8 S, 8 PA, (16+2) MA, Holy Strengthening
Weapon+ Proc: 375~531
Average: 212~298

Holy Bow's closest competitor is Ultimus Bow:

Male Archer
70 Br, 9 SP, 16 PA, Attack UP
Weapon: 200~281

Keep in mind Archers have an easier time running max offense setups, since they fire from a distance.

Even without the +2 MA, Holy Bow is still stronger than Ultimus Bow.  I'm inclined to drop Holy Bow's WP even further, to 12, to keep longbows balanced.

1) The whole point of cross helm was to use MP costs on physical jobs as a limiter of how many times they could spam their skills.  In short, the cross helm previously granted crap HP bonuses because it was intended to force knights into accepting either subpar HP or insufficient MP.

And so armor classes equip robes or make effective use of Absorb/Restore MP instead.  Cross Helm is not worth the HP and status-resistance penalty.  It is getting buffed on the observation that it is never used.

2) Similarly, adding more HP bonuses to +max PA/MA/SP gear essentially lessens the penalty for running a max-power setup, i.e. the risk of getting 1HKO'd in return.  You should risk a 1HKO if you run a 253 HP ninja whose sole purpose is to deal massive damage.

This is a good point.  I'm willing to scratch the HP boost from Twist Headband and Holy Miter if this motion proves popular.

There has been an overwhelming opinion that Secret Clothes needs its buff, however.

[The Golden Hairpin nerf] is entirely uncalled for considering that the only really dangerous units still using this are Barren's Koutetsu Draw OUt user (from Big Assault) and my holy spammer (from S6 / Raiders).

Actually, it's been called for for at least a year, and so it exists.  Golden Hairpin trumps Holy Miter hard, especially when using Light/Dark elements.  Would you not agree that +50 MP, +10 HP, and Holy+Dark Strengthening is worth 1 point of MA?

4) The headband changes make no sense.

Give The Damned some credit, man.  He's right in observing that people either use the 80 HP/ 80 MP headband for MP or the 70 HP headband for superior status resistance.  The third headband is never used.  They have been balanced to encourage use of all three.

Instead of designing headbands to serve as hard counters to specific setups, how about we distribute their attributes across all three so that they are useful in many sitations?

I prefer [my Power Wrist change] as 15 P/M-EV makes units more adaptable vs. the spread rather than only blocking physicals.

And I prefer mine because it leaves PA classes (the ones who will use this) exposed to magic.  Mixed P/M-EV is the duty of mantles in my opinion.

If we call Defense Ring: Absorb: Water, Null: Silence, Berserk, Stop, then Jade Armlet should be Null: Ice, Dead, DS, Petrify, Sleep, Slow.

Fine with me.  The point is that the current Defense Ring nulls too much and the current Jade Armlet nulls too little.

I fear [Wish] may be stronger than PD now.

That's fine with me.  Phoenix Down costs half the JP, never misses, and is on a skillset that heals and cleanses status ailments as well.  I assure you that people won't jump from Item to Basic Skill just for Wish.

What is the reason for this?  The original Cure4's healing effect should not be decreased, as it's still the best way to heal a high faith unit through reflect, which on a defensive magical status team, or a SC'd faith rod team, are staples of the defense.

And it will still be the best way to heal through reflect.  I'd rather pull off a 250+ heal than attempt a 300+ heal and get midcharged.  Often the 300+ heal heals more than necessary, besides.  If you still want the super-big heals, you can painlessly substitute Short Charge for Magic Attack UP, as the new Cure 4's CT is equal to the old Cure 4's CT with Short Charge.

At any rate, Cure 4 is still going to fulfill its original purpose, so I don't see where the beef is.

Although the new Bad Luck is certainly more likely to proc something useful, it's also too similar to Mediator (and thus, much easier to block, especially with my monk changes)

Just a minor point, but please don't discount present changes by invoking personal changes you propose in the same post.  These changes are listed without yours in mind, after all.

Actually, I can see myself doing this, so I'm not one to judge.

That said, I have no comment about the Bad Luck changes.  Would the person who made it like to comment?

I'm not sure why [P Bag] needs changing, but if we making Quick Book instead of Flare Book, I don't think this will be necessary.

Priest smacks enemy with bag.
Bag deals 5 damage.
Enemy counter attacks with dual-wielded swords.
Priest dies.

It also assists the use of difficult-to-use spells, such as Solution.  Everyone can use bags; not everyone can use books.

Case in point: Just today in a match featuring Barren against reinoe, Barren's Mediator chose to slash with a knife, and thus waste her turn, rather than use Mimic Daravon at a critical moment.  If this Mediator had a P Bag equipped, she would have invariably used Mimic Daravon.   

1) Maybe the person who designed [the new Ninjutsu skills] can explain this better, but other than MP restraints, why does Misogi get rid of Faith if Heretic does the same thing?

Certainly.  Heretic is not used to get rid of Faith proactively, as far as I know.  Misogi, on the other hand, can get rid of it incidentally when cleansing other status effects such as Poison.

Furthermore, what does [Misogi] do that stigma magic, refute, or heal can't do (and in particular, why was silence chosen when none of the ninjitsu skills have anything to do with silence)

Misogi keeps the ninja from wasting turns healing party members.  The ninja is an offensive unit.  With Misogi, he keep himself, and only himself, healthy.  This sustains offense as efficiently as possible.

Also, it cleanses silence lest MA units care to use Misogi as well.

1) The nerf to oil's effect neuters the entire idea of blocking a team's elemental synergy to only blocking items like white robe and thief hat.

And the current oil neuters the entire idea of blocking elements in the first place.

3) Berserk and Silence should not be as much a concern for mages now that at least one piece of gear nulls both with a decent team synergy effect and 100% silence weapons are removed.  Berserk and Blind similarly shouldn't bother anyone unduly now that
A) We aren't nerfing spellgun damage.
B) Monk related changes

The jury's still out on these ones, isn't it?

Edit: Some Monk stuff now that I found more time

E) As someone who did spam battle song + monk, I will tell you that the threat of the quadratic monk formula is overhyped.

View it from another angle: The quadratic formula makes Punch Art toothless on every class other than Monks.  It's going linear to help classes that don't have 13 base PA.

1) Giving monk MP costs on all his offensive skills forces too many other changes down the line.  This is not because of the necessary balancing act that will now result in creating a monk (as monk's MP reserves are sufficient and monk has chakra), but because doing makes it impossible to predictably counter bizen boat users by physical skills ...

Plain old physical attacks counter Bizen Boat nicely.

Anyway, Bizen Boat is... a problem for many things, to say the least.  I think it's better to solve this by changing Bizen Boat.

changing the elemental on earth slash actually counts as a nerf as the easiest option for boosting a monk's attack is earth clothes, killing a decent team strategy in using a permutation of Earth Dragon + Quake + Kiku + Earth Slash.

The nerf is intentional.

Repeating Fist any elemental counts as a nerf (especially earth elemental, which is easily blocked by float) because you're saying that there exists a way to completely block the damage when the whole point of the attack was to guarantee physical damage at close range.

This is also intentional.  Powerful unblockable attacks are unfair unless they have a serious drawback.  For example, Flare has a CT of 7 and an MP cost of 40; guns have weak damage.  Making Repeating Fist earth element gives players a way to defend themselves. 

Freezing Fist: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_B(PA*9), Ice Element, 250 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.

This isn't bad in itself, but The Damned won't be happy to see a Wind elemental attack bite the dust.  This also breaks the synergy Punch Art would have with Chirijiraden (and Genji Helm if it goes through).

Similarly, I won't be happy to see a Water elemental attack bite the dust, as this element is underrepresented at the moment (even among weapons, and even after the introduction of Black Magick Water).[/list]

[formerdeathcorps]

I really hate arguing, but I think this argument won't end for a while because we don't seem to agree on what equips and thus, the rest of the game should look like.

I've noted two problems with how a lot of people reason on here about items (myself included).  It often leads to unnecessarily extreme changes.

1) Direct comparisons with other items rather than a holistic evaluation of the metagame, especially other items of the same equipment type.
2) If no one is using it, it needs a buff.  If it makes some choices irrelevant on some classes or too many people are using it, it needs a nerf.

This one is addressed more towards you, Gaignun (and the Damned / Malroth, too, I think).
3) We clearly have a different idea of what is balanced.  Given FFT's base mechanics and how the AI thinks, I think FFT Arena is most balanced when
Optimized Offense < Defensive Hard-Counter < Offensive Anti-Counter < Defensive Soft Counter or Marginal Tricks
A) A defensive hard counter is something that induces a binary effect, i.e. you hit or you don't, you are reflected / absorbed or you're not, etc.  It's debatable whether or not elemental halve belongs here because although the "miss" effect (i.e. halving an elemental attack) is obviously not as restrictive as absorbing or nullifying an attack, the AI still considers it damage and thus will waste more moves.  In other words, if an archer with an ice bow faces white robe vs. santa outfit, he'd nearly always attack for crap in the first case while almost always use arm aim or armor break in the second.
B) Offensive Anti-Counters are meant to be subpar offensive choices whose value mostly exist in crushing a specific defensive hard-counter or a set of defensive counters.  As long as all offensive anti-counters have real conditions attached to the unit or the team, have unsustainable costs, harm the user's team synergy, or don't circumvent everything, they cannot be broken.  This, Gaignun, is why I don't think making ninjitsu unevadable is broken (or Magic Concentrate), or having oil totally negate elemental hard counters.  Of course, I'm willing to compromise, but only to the degree that it still follows the above pattern.
C) Defensive Soft Counter is typically a wide application ability that typically can reduce all the damage from a class, but not so much that it changes the AI's basic decision tree.  Examples include Protect / Shell / Reraise / MADEF / DEFUP / Unyielding.  Typically, the support / accessory version of these skills are simply more permanent versions of what players can inflict.  Marginal tactics are those that technically would be hard-counters but only block one narrow class of attacks, such as finger guard, maintenance, ranged guard, etc.  I did not include reflect because Reflect blocks most skills on all non-summoner mage jobs and is a key component in keeping high faith + low HP casters alive.

As a result of the above, I'm naturally going to come to different conclusions on items.
4) I'd rather a niche item that solidly has a home in that niche, than a general use item that is second best at everything.  Any items meant to be a general use must have bonuses better than the niche items when applied outside their niche, but have a serious drawback either in the sunk cost or in the exaggeration of its drawbacks.

Of course, the spillover to team design and game balance is equally apparent.
5) I prefer units to be multifunctional and independent.  The idea of one unit being blockable by an enemy setup that must be dealt with by my other units is anathema, as is the idea that a team works better when only a few units run only the offense and the rest strictly mind the defense.  Of course, if a certain setup is really powerful, I'd be willing to make exceptions and test things, but in general, my ideal team is one where my team members are mostly interchangeable parts on offense against all but the most solid of defenses.  Hence, my basic demand for the sum offense on a unit is that it is varied, has a baseline move that I can rely on in nearly all situations (or some combination that functions like the equivalent of such a move) and is powerful against the spread; this is much more important than having a unit or an attack that is maximal at doing one type of attack, but subsequently easy to counter.  Offense here does not mean damage, per se, as much as it means the ability to impair the opponent.  Hence, I do not consider a team broken if it makes certain other strategies obsolete; that is normal.  Nor is it immediately broken if it is the crucial underpinning of a winning team.  It's only when that team literally cannot be beaten without extreme tactics that fail against the spread that a team (and its underlying mechanic) is considered unfair.  Hence, Y U SO DERP is unfair before Absorb MP, as was Losers before Concentrate.
6) Under my direction, game balance will typically involve not power escalation as much as increasing the types of roughly equivalent serious threats until they exceed the maximum capacity of a team to block them all while still being able to attack.  A broken threat is a unit or combination that kills or incapacitates most things without fail while retaining a competent level of defense, and requires bad setups to counter.  A serious threat is not broken until it reaches that 1-hit level.  Hence, deeply polarizing items or items / skills / effects that break existing limits are a good thing, because the idea is to eventually have a game where the perfect defense cannot exist, but the optimal offense will ultimately be a test of skill, luck, and psychology.

I'm too tired to reply to all those points, but I will later.

[Barren]

I was thinking about salty rage being always berserk, my problem with that is that its too weak against status effects. Why not for the next change make Salty Rage initial berserk + haste

Reason being is that you can give your melee units more of an advantage like ninja or samurai. Also that it makes berserk units more of a threat considering that even the slowest unit with salty rage goes down too quickly. At least for my taste

[formerdeathcorps]

Some changes Doku and I came up with:

Save the Queen (15 WP, Init: Reraise)
Persia (11-12 WP, Init: Reraise)
Ragnarok (15-16 WP, Init:Protect / Shell)
Cashmere (12 WP, Init: Protect / Shell)
As this stands, we can then safely increase the WP of defender to 16 and keep the Ryozan Silk at 12 WP without issues.

Bizen Boat
Idea 1: Southern Cross Range; M-EV is optional
Idea 2: Always deal 0 HP damage on top of MP damage, as this then breaks charm / sleep (one of the times bizen boat is spammed most often), and triggers MP Restore, HP Restore, Auto Potion, etc.  Again, M-EV is optional here.

Salty Rage:
Initial: Berserk is easier to run because it doesn't lock your unit's battle style.  However, that only works if your unit can be quickly revived, so Initial: Reraise would be nice too.  A status nullification would top it off, but I'm not sure which.
With this, I'd be much more inclined to negotiate on Genji Helm (as we guaranteed a useful berserk item).