FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(Glad to see you back, FFMaster, even if your absence was of course understandable.)

Yes, it would be best to start with Gaignun's thread. Just leave the Monk, Ninja and Flails changes for last for now since those are basically the "only" things there being heavily discussed off the top of my head. Everything else has been more or less agreed upon at this point, though it's not like it can't be changed after the fact if necessary.

[Gaignun]

I'll highlight the changes that are currently being disputed so that you can skip over them for the time being.  A few more changes are still on the drawing board.  They'll be added to the list once we get more input.

One thing you'll notice is that I completely disrespected the item attribute space by adding new attributes to existing equipment.  I remember reading a discussion many months ago about whether this space can be expanded.  If it cannot, then we will have to prune or reorder some of the changes.

Both ideas if I just did really quick fixes WILL bring weak/absorb back into action. Just be prepared for that. Getting afflicted by Oil, and then having a teammate use HC on your face to heal 300+ like good oldschool Arena. As for changing the weakness multiplier to 1.5x, it would mean that we would have to remove all the half: element from all the absorbing items as well, else they will only heal 0.75x damage. This will also bring back the Weak/Absorb, although at 1.5x healing.

Removing half: element probably isn't a good idea.  Having oil simply set weak: element might be best in spite of weak/absorb.  This would put the onus on the attacking party to attack the oiled unit before it's healed.

Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.
Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.

I like these!  It never hurts to have more movement abilities.

[CT5Holy]

So, you know how the current paradigm for Summon Magic is that Summons with CT <= 3 are unevadable, and Summons with CT >=5 are evadable? Why don't we change it so Summons whose damage formula is <= F_(MA*8) are unevadable, and damage formula >= F_(MA*9) are evadable? This would help Leviathan and Salamander.

Another idea for Leviathan and Salamander would be to make their damage formula a straight MA*6 or MA*7, so it's Faith independent. Damage wouldn't be too high, much like it is now to compensate for the 3 AoE, and if you choose to run 40 Faith, then you lose out on all the other summons.

I also really like the new movement ability and buff to Defend.

Damned: Sorry, I meant people do get Maiden's Kiss at more or less the same frequency as Soft =P
I should also mention that Swords are equippable by a lot more jobs than Crossbows, Poles, Katana, and especially Cloths, so it's still not a decent amount of use in my mind. Doesn't help that there are a lot of different swords, too. Regardless, this seems to be more of a semantics argument, so let's drop it, and I concede that you have a point in that there are a lot of unused equipment. Let's focus on those =P

[FFMaster]

Everyone must understand that simply due to the massive amount of items in this patch, some will obviously be neglected while others are used. This is dependent on what strategies are currently being run. So in my mind, these items are not bad, but rather they do not work in this current meta. If the meta shifted, you can definitely expect the equipment choices to shift as well.

That doesn't mean that there are some items that are just too good or vice versa. The hard part is trying to work out which ones are just bad and not just being neglected because of the current meta.

[reinoe]

Everyone must understand that simply due to the massive amount of items in this patch, some will obviously be neglected while others are used. This is dependent on what strategies are currently being run. So in my mind, these items are not bad, but rather they do not work in this current meta. If the meta shifted, you can definitely expect the equipment choices to shift as well.

That doesn't mean that there are some items that are just too good or vice versa. The hard part is trying to work out which ones are just bad and not just being neglected because of the current meta.

Well I just want you to know that myself and many others are very grateful.  Furthermore there are going to be bugs too, that's inevitable.  Take your time.  And thanks.  Oh, btw are you doing all these updates by yourself?

[FFMaster]

Yes, I do the updates myself, unless there is something I need help on (spriting, some asm hacking).

[The Damned]

(Gods damn it, I am such a lazy ass.)

I had meant this to be up around 3:00 A.M. and then noon after getting horribly distracted repeatedly. And then I fell asleep. Great.

Anyway, I did an impromptu count of the weapons on the currently non-retired teams, not including mine which aren't "officially" retired for the most part; that's probably for the best part, given my...atypical weapon usage, though I'll likely add them in the next day or two anyway when I re-post some of them. It's probably somewhat flawed by a factor of + or - 1 or even 2 on some of the more commonly used items given my level of repeated distraction, but this should be mostly accurate even if it would be nice if someone more competent double-checked.

It should be noted that I counted "inactive" people who obviously aren't around anymore like Taichii even if I avoided teams that were "retired" or on "vacation" or currently on "hiatus" (again, besides my own, which I obviously have access to information-wise). I don't think that should change too much outside of Kikuichimonji going down to 0 between Celdia's "retirement" from ARENA as a whole and Taichii's apparent disappearance. This especially after seeing how many new teams that Dokurider, Otabo and reinoe have added since I've been "gone".

Anyway, without further ado:

spoiler: Current Weapon Usage by Current Non-Retired ARENA 1.38 Teams

I'm going to "steal" Gaignun's color-coding for this.

Buffs are highlighted in green.
Nerfs are highlighted in maroon.
Neutral changes are highlighted in blue.
Disputed changes are highlighted in red.
Probable snark or sarcasm may or may not be highlighted in anything.


KNIVES (Usable by: Squire, Chemist, Thief, Mediator, Ninja, Bard, Dancer and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Throwing Knife - 5 [Maybe getting a buff.]
Dual Cutters - 3 [Getting a buff.]
Repel Knife - 3 [Probably staying the same; it is actually (seems to be) working as it should unlike what I claimed last time you were around, FFMaster.]
Mage Masher - 3 [Perhaps staying the "same", though it currently kinda sucks, really, and the very least needs a correct in the Master Guide since it's proc Bizen Boat at a rather high percentage.]
Platina Dagger - 5 [Stays the same.]
Main Gauche - 17 [Stays the same.]
Orichalcum - 2 [Stays the same.]
Katar - 5 [Stays the same.]
Air Knife - 4 [Getting a necessary WP, however slight it actually seems to be turning out.]


NINJATO (Usable by: Thief, Ninja and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Hidden Knife - 33 [Getting a couple of necessary nerfs if it's going to keep that pesky Always: Transparent.]
Ninja Knife - 18 [Probably stays the same (even though I think it's also part of the Kagesougi problem, if not as big as Hidden Knife or a couple of Bows).]
Short Edge - 13 [Getting its WP nerfed, though it's sort of getting a "buff" in that the accidentally Oil proc is becoming official (in the Master Guide), so....]
Ninja Edge - 1 [Overall getting buffed despite taking a slight hit to its WP.]
Spell Edge - 2 [Despite the fact that it's actually missing its MA +1 IIRC (that or its Spell Absorb proc), Dol's "8 Swords" team is using two of it currently on one unit.] [Getting a buff to proc, which will be 100%, and the fact its +1 MA will definitely actually be around next version.] 
Sasuke Knife - 9 [This is dying and getting replaced by Orochimaru Fang, so....]
Iga Knife - 1 [Overall should be stronger even with the current suggestion, even if this is basically dying as well.]
Koga Knife - 1 [Overall should be stronger even with the current suggestion, even if this is basically dying as well.]


SWORDS (Usable by: Squire, Paladin, Thief, Geomancer, Scholar, Bard, Dancer and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Phoenix Blade - 16 [Disputed changes abound here. The Immune: Critical thing was suggested by Raven and while some people are for it and I can understand why he thinks it's necessary, the more I thought about it, the more I against became it. Other people are against it getting Immune: Critical as well given how dumb it already makes the enemy A.I., even when not in pairs. Additionally, I've said it should probably lose a bit of W-EV even if Parry Edge is getting a W-EV since now that's going to have to compete (even more) with Slasher.]
Tactician's Blade - 4 [I vaguely remember someone suggesting a slight, sensible buff for this months ago, but it's not on the list, I'm too lazy to look for it currently and no one's saying anything about it, so it probably remains the same.]
Parry Edge - 1 [Only used by one of Jumza's new teams.] [Gets a slight W-EV boost so that its W-EV isn't inferior to Phoenix Blade; it still only ties with Phoenix Blade though.]
Moonlight - 5 [Stays the same.]
Blood Sword - 3 [Stays the same.]
Coral Sword - 1 [Only used by reinoe's "Squinja" team.] [Everyone agrees it needs at least a slight buff proc-wise, but no one can agree on what presently. CT5Holy suggested replacing Water Ball with Suiton.]
Ancient Sword - 4 [Stays the same.]
Sleep Sword - 3 [Stays the same.]
Platinum Sword - 0 [Stays the same? (Even though no one's using it now and it will have to compete with Slasher?)]
Shieldrender - 1 [Purely unused because its Shield Break proc doesn't work presently; for some reason Dol's "Beta" team hasn't been edited since last September.] [Its proc gets fixed going into next version.]
Ice Brand - 5 [Stays the same.]
Rune Blade - 28 [Stays the same.]
Lionheart - 15 [Whoa, what? Since when the hell are we giving this thing W-EV, much less 10% W-EV? No one mentioned this. Disputed like hell.]
Ultima Weapon - 3 [Stays the same.]


KNIGHT('S) SWORDS (Usable by: Paladin and units with "Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Defender - 5 [Getting a buff to WP.]
Save the Queen - 2 [Getting a buff overall even if it takes a slight hit in WP & W-EV due to Initial: Protect becoming Always: Protect. This technically frees up an Item Attribute spot should Persia change too.]
Excalibur - 5 [Disputed in actuality. Personally, people said that the +1 WP would be a sensible buff compared to Always: Haste; I don't recall people unanimously agreeing that Excalibur actually needs said buff though.]
Ragnarok - 1 [Getting a buff overall even if it takes a slight hit in WP & W-EV due to Initial: Shell becoming Always: Shell. This technically frees up an Item Attribute spot should Cashmere change too.]
Chaos Blade - 4 [Stays the same.]


KATANA (Usable by: Paladin, Samurai and units with "Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Asura Knife - 2 [Stays the same.]
Kotetsu Knife - 0 [Stays the same.]
Bizen Boat - 2 [Stays the same.]
Murasame - 12 [Stays the same.]
Heaven's Cloud - 1 [Only used in Dokurider's Peking Dragon Company.] [May change if Heaven's Cloud the ability changes.]
Kiyomori - 22 [Stays the same.]
Muramasa - 6 [Stays the same.]
Kikuichimonji - 2 [Stays the same.]
Masamune - 4 [May end up getting a buff if people are fine with it getting Initial: Regen too.]
Chirijiraden - 5 [Stays the same.]


AXES (Usable by: Paladin, Geomancer and untis with
"Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Battle Axe - 23 [Getting what's more of a nerf rather than a neutral change, really, since Decapitate--I still say it should get renamed "Maim" now--gets dropped all the way down to 50%-55% Max HP from 85% Max HP.] [I don't recall people agreeing that the proc rate should be as high as 33% definitively though.]
Giant Axe - 6 [Stays the same.]
Slasher - 3 [2 used by FDC's "TestB". Getting boosted.] [Getting a buff overall by becoming usable with Two Swords as well as Two Hands so that both other axes no longer overshadow it, even if it needs to take a slight hit to W-EV.]


RODS (Usable by: Squire, Wizard, Summoner, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.)
Prismatic Rod - 9 [Stays the same.]
Thunder Rod - 0 [Apparently is getting a slight WP buff despite only one other person agreeing it to explicitly; I guess I'm fine with it since elemental Rods haven't exactly been slaughtering people in a while.]
Flame Rod - 3 [Stays the same.]
Ice Rod - 1 [Apparently is getting a slight WP buff despite only one other person agreeing it to explicitly; I guess I'm fine with it since elemental Rods haven't exactly been slaughtering people in a while.]
Poison Rod - 3 [Stays the same.]
Wizard Rod - 37 [Stays the same.]
Dragon Rod - 1 [Probably stays the same even though it's seeing almost no use.]
Faith Rod - 11 [Stays the same.]


STAVES (Usable by: Squire, Priest, Time Mage, Summoner, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.) [This entire category is contested in actuality outside of people agreeing that Gold Staff should have the most W-EV, that White Staff should probably be Holy Elemental and that Mace of Zeus is probably fine.]
White Staff - 2
Healing Staff - 5
Rainbow Staff - 3 [2 used by FDC's "Deadbolt" team.]
Wizard Staff - 31
Gold Staff - 4
Mace of Zeus - 9


FLAILS (Usable by: Squire, Priest and Ninja.)
Sadist's Whip - 4 [Stays the same.]
Spiked Futon - 3 [Stays the same.]
Aspergillum - 3 [Might be changed to the Desert Rose flail for...some reason.]
Scorpion Tail - 7 [Stays the same.]


GUNS (Usable by: Chemist, Archer, Mediator and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.) [There was also some talk about making the spellguns and/or Stone Gun Forced Two Hand given all the Kaiser Plate BS, but meh, that can probably wait.]
Romanda Gun - 16 [Stays the same.]
Mythril Gun - 2 [Stays the same...even though it and Romanda Gun could probably stand to combine and this could probably die/change to something else completely.]
Stone Gun - 4 [Initial Petrify getting removed seems a bigger buff than the very slight nerf to 5 Range and with -1 SP.]
Blaze Gun - 15 [Nerfed to cast Nether Fire so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]
Glacier Gun - 16 [Nerfed to cast Nether Ice so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]
Blast Gun - 6 [Nerfed to cast Nether Bolt so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]


CROSSBOWS (Usable by: Squire, Archer and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.)
Bow Gun - 3 [Purely unused because its Shield Break proc doesn't work presently; Ahong, DarkxFatal & reinoe just haven't edited ever it out of their teams for some reason.] ["Buffed" by getting its proc fixed, at which point it will probably quickly become overpowered because it's freaking Armor Break.]
Night Killer - 1 [Only used on Dokurider's "Magic Shield Maidens".] [Stays the same.]
Silencer - 1 [Apparently one of Vigilanti's "recent" changes to his Sobriety team.] [Getting a WP boost.]
Poison Bow - 3 [2 on Zareb's "Browncoats" team.] [Stays the same; no longer getting a WP nerf that it probably doesn't need just for the sake of Silencer, especially when Hawk's Eye might not be getting nerfed as much it needs to be.]
Hunting Bow - 3 [Stays the same.]
Gastrafitis - 3 [Getting a WP nerf, but it's getting a proc...that for some reason is 100%. I thought it was supposed to be 50%, but maybe it was 100% even back when I agreed to it and I just don't remember now; too lazy to check.]


LONGBOWS (Usable by: Archer and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.)
Long Bow - 1 [Getting a Movement buff...which ends up eating up an Item Attribute space unlike if it was just increased in Range.]
Silver Bow - 7 [Stays the same.]
Ice Bow - 0 [Stays the same; difficult to tell if it will get a nerf or buff from the change to Jade Armlet and Defense Ring.]
Lightning Bow - 0 [Stays the same.]
Windslash Bow - 2 [Stays the same.]
Mythril Bow - 16 [Gets the (slight) WP nerf it needs.]
Ultimus Bow - 5 [Gets the (slight) WP nerf it needs.]


HARPS (Usable by: Bards.)
Lamia Harp - 0 [If nothing else changes with this, can we at least change the name already?] [Stays the same...even though I still think it and Madlemgen are too similar.]
Bloody Strings - 5 [Getting a nerf to at least 10 WP; I still think its WP should be slightly less, especially if it becomes more available, but whatever.]
Fairy Harp - 1 [Stays the same.]


BOOKS (Usable by: Squire, Summoner, Mediator, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.)
Necronomicon - 5 [Stays the same.]
Monster Dict - "0" [Technically 1, due to my Plastic Knight team.] [Stays the same...even though its proc could probably use a buff.]
Papyrus Plate - 5 [Stays the same.]
Madlemgen - 7 [Stays the same...even though I still think it and Lamia Harp are too similar.]


SPEARS (Usable by: Lancer and units with "Equip Polearm" Support.) [Apparently Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan are "contested" now even though pretty much everyone agreed that the only change to the elemental Breath lances were that they should become elemental themselves. I think the only contested part was if they should lose a bit of WP because of Black Robe availability on Lancers, but even then.... They could probably use name changes though.]
Javelin - 15 [Stays the same.]
Spear - 0
Mythril Spear - 0
Partisan - 2
Obelisk - 4 [Stays the same.]
Holy Lance - 0 [Actually contested too, at least in terms of proc since Dokurider said that it should probably just get Cyclops and I kind of agree. I don't know, however, what you wanted to do for its Holy Breath proc, FFMaster, so I said we should wait until you came back to talk about it. I also don't remember ever talking about an W-EV buff to it, so....]
Dragon Whisker - 14 [Stays the same.]


POLES (Usable by: Lancer, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Polearm" Support.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because no one's really talked about them. At all.]
Iron Fan - 0
Gokuu Rod - "0" [Technically at least 2 between Otabo and myself.]
Ivory Rod - 16
Octagon Rod - 5
Whale Whisker - 2


BAGS (Usable by: All Classes except Mime.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because that "Healing Bag" idea quickly got forgotten.]
C Bag - 4
FS Bag - 31
P Bag - 17
H Bag - 17


CLOTHS (Usable by: Dancer.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because no one's really talked about them in months and no could agree what the hell to change Persia and Cashmere too since Ryozan Silk is probably fine.]
Persia - 0
Cashmere - 2
Ryozan Silk - 3

This was rather informative on a number of levels:


1. I'm not really surprised by any of the popular weapons outside of realizing how much Murasame is actually getting used apparently, especially compared to most other Katana.

2. I hadn't realized before that Flails, like Harps & Cloths, aren't part of any "Equip X" ability. That or I had forgotten.

3. Night Killer being the least used Crossbow is extremely surprising, especially given it has tended to always be the second most popular one after Hunting Bow and given that Bow Gun doesn't even freaking work.

4. Thunder Rod and Lightning Bow not getting used makes less sense than Ice Bow not getting used and yet I know that I've at least tried to use Ice Bow.


Etcerta etcerta.

Besides doing this to "help" FFMaster, I did it since CT5Holy semi-rightfully said I was getting into talk about semantics, which I do tend to do, mostly because I don't see that as being always a bad thing like some people seem to. Still, I figured I'd do something substantive considering CT5Holy also mentioned trying to help weapons that actually need help. So, off the top of my head, here's my suggestions for the weapons that we either haven't really talked about or that I have "strong" opinions about:

spoiler: Relatively Impromptu Weapon Suggestions

1. Mage Masher: We haven't really talked about this, but it probably do needs some "help", if only deciding what it actually "should proc I think it would be fine its Bizen Boat proc, which is what it actually procs, becomes 100% given that the most (likely) users of Knives have crap MA and that the new Bizen Boat is actually going to be subject to M-EV--procs are still subject to evasion, right? I forget.

2. Iga Knife, Koga Knife and Desert Rose: If Aspergillum gets turned into Desert Rose (for whatever reason), then it is only fair that Koga Knife becomes Water element and that Iga Knife gets Strengthen Water. While I don't expect Summoners (or Wizards) to suddenly start using Ninjato, such a change would both be fair and make it easier for (female) Ninja to use both Summon Magick and Black Magick, especially if Leviathan and Salamander get changed to not go on Faith like how CT5Holy suggested.

3. Platinum Sword: This sword is probably still going to see next to no use still with the buffs to Slasher and even the slight one to Parry Edge. It's also sure as hell not going to any use if we buff Lionheart of all things. Why are we giving that W-EV all of sudden? And when did we agree to that? Not that Swords should really be getting more buffs as it is, but Platinum Sword seems like it needs...something.

4. Excalibur: ...Really doesn't need that WP boost. Do you really want to make its Grand Cross equal in power to Chaos Blade's Southern Cross by default, especially if Cursed Ring loses Null: Holy and nothing Halves Holy? It's fine as it is, even with the other buffs the three lesser Knight Swords are getting.

5. Battle Axe: I thought people had agreed to it being 25% proc, not 33%, and to make Decapitate/Maim do 55% Max HP as "recompense" for that? Granted, I'd be fine with 25% proc of "only" 50% Max HP since current Battle Axe is completely absurd anyway.

6. Staves: I've already made my feelings on these known, though I'd be willing to give up +1 Sp on my bloated version of Healing Staff. With the tally above, seeing how little use C Bag is actually getting just reaffirms to me that we really don't seem to need Wizard Staff since we have such a glut of +2 MA weapons.

7. Romanda Gun, Mythril Gun and Stone Gun: We kinda just stopped talking about whether to combine these are what given what little use Mythril Gun is actually getting, which I doubt will change very much even with spellguns getting much needed actual nerfs. This partly because I'm still somewhat against Stone Gun getting only slight nerfs if it's going to lose as big a drawback as Initial: Petrify.

8. Poison Bow and Gastraphetes: Poison Bow is probably fine staying with its WP, but Hawk's Eye still needs bigger nerfs if it's going to see (more) use. This especially if Poison and Regen are getting their CT reduced like they probably should (given they stay past death) and if Gastraphetes has a chance of causing Poison and out-damaging Poison Bow (just like Hawk's Eye) as well. I also have to ask that if Gastraphetes is "really" going to be "Kagesougi: The Crossbow", then it should probably also get Kagesougi's chance to add 100% "Nothing"; I'm pretty sure Kagesougi is using the blank status above Crystal or else it would be even more overpowered than it currently is. It's only fair that Gastraphetes gets the same treatment if it both allows for infinite Kagesougi and for an entire team to have Kagesougi on all units.

9. Lamia Harp and Bloody Strings: I still think Bloody Strings could see more of WP reduction and still be fine, but more importantly, I still think that Lamia Harp needs a proc change to...something other than Stop given Madlemgen. This especially if Equip Mageagear gets Harps. Speaking of which....

10. Equip Magegear giving access to Harps: Are we doing this or not? Because we all briefly discussed it, but it's not in the list of changes and people are more or less ambivalent too it. I still have my own hesitance, but that's mostly due to the Harps above and if Bloody Strings is definitely getting a WP reduction now....

11. Equip Polearms giving access to Cloths: As above, we all briefly discussed this months ago and then nothing was ever said about it again, probably because no one could agree how to fix the Cloths Persia and Cashmere to "actually" be usable. Everyone had wildly different ideas--the most usable one I remember had their evasions vary radically. Regardless, this is more a strict question of "should we make Cloths more available (even if two of them sort of suck)?" than anything else.

12. Equip [Anything] giving access to Flails: Flails somehow got overlooked in terms of access to them and availability. This is probably because there are so many damn Ninja around and because Flails have somewhat decent distribution, at least compared to Harps and Cloths (which isn't saying much, really). So I guess it's a two-fold issue of if Flails should become more available at all (whether it's becoming part of an Equip X or just another class [besides Mime], like Knight, getting it) and, if it would become part of an Equip X, then the decision on which one.

13. Iron Fan and Ivory Rod: There's no real reason to use Iron Fan when Ivory Rod can be Two-Handed, really. Whale Whisker is probably fine being Two Handed as it is even though it can do absurd damage when Two Handed with its current power, but Ivory Rod being Two-Handed, have decent WP already AND having +2 MA, which only adds to both former things, is a bit much it seems. I wouldn't be against it either getting a WP nerf or not becoming Two-Handed, even if that meant similar nerfs to Whale Whisker. (In Whale Whisker's case, I think it's more appropriate if WP was nerfed though since I think at least one Pole should remain Two Hands compatible and right now Whale Whisker is the only good Water weapon.)

14. New Healing on Hit Weapons: Among other things that fell by the wayside, we never decided on whether one of the bags would become a healing item or if one of the guns would or if there should be any new healing items at all. At this point, I'd probably have to lean towards P Bag getting it healing since that makes the most "sense" if a bag had to heal at all. H Bag could still also become holder of that healing priority, however, if a bag did at all given any bag would be healing for paltry damage, obviously. Additionally, both of those bags already see way more use than poor C Bag, so perhaps none of the Bags should try to become healing items. I'd still be fine with one of the guns becoming a "Vector Gun" or "Opera Gun" that heals, especially since that would help curb Cursed Ring use even more without being able to "nuke" those units.

15. Persia and Cashmere: I still have no ideas how to "fix" these to be honest.

OK!!!!!!!! TIME TO OIL UP!

*Oil stuff*

What Gaignun said about Oil. It's not the optimal choice, but it's the most fair one to you given you're basically doing all this work solo and it's certainly the lesser evil of the two options.

Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.

Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.

I really, really don't like Initiative or, rather, I am extremely hesitant about it even though it's obviously "only" a one-time thing. I'll try to give it more thought.

The buff to Defend (the Support only, right?) seems more fair, but it seems like it might be difficult to pull off mechanically, especially since you'd realistically have to make sure that the CT boost only applied to Defend and not adding Defending, otherwise Nurse becomes broken and Caution potentially becomes overpowered. Also, you'd have to realistically reward the A.I. for using Defend at all since a lot of the time the A.I. likes to use Defend and then Move, so....

Still, that seems far more fair than Initiative if it actually worked and you now have me inadvertently wondering if we should "improve" Defend by moving it to Movement as with Maintenance.

So, you know how the current paradigm for Summon Magic is that Summons with CT <= 3 are unevadable, and Summons with CT >=5 are evadable? Why don't we change it so Summons whose damage formula is <= F_(MA*8) are unevadable, and damage formula >= F_(MA*9) are evadable? This would help Leviathan and Salamander.

Another idea for Leviathan and Salamander would be to make their damage formula a straight MA*6 or MA*7, so it's Faith independent. Damage wouldn't be too high, much like it is now to compensate for the 3 AoE, and if you choose to run 40 Faith, then you lose out on all the other summons.

I'd be up more for the Faith independent Leviathan and Salamander even if it would probably have to be the lower end multiplier. Otherwise, making Salamander unavoidable (alongside Leviathan) just screws over Ifrit even more, which already isn't really seeing use despite being unavoidable (given it, Ramuh and Shiva still don't vary). Also, unavoidable AoE 3 abilities seem like they would be a bit...much.

[Gaignun]

Lionheart & Platinum Sword: When Lionheart was proposed by Raven, he gave it 11 WP, which made it the most powerful weapon in its category.  In compensation, it granted no W-EV.  Nevertheless, fearing its effect on the meta-game, we eventually reduced its WP to 10.  However, its W-EV penalty persisted. With the WP nerf, Lionheart and Platinum Sword are of equal strength.  In fact, when you equip Attack UP, Platinum Sword is actually stronger when your PA is 3*n.  Lionheart's sole advantage is increasing the strength of PA-based skills, primarily Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  Rune Blade increases the strength of MA-based skills in an analogous way, and it has had 10 W-EV from the beginning.  Giving Lionheart back its 10 W-EV seems natural to me for this reason.

Slasher & Platinum Sword: Axes can only be equipped by a select few classes (i.e. Paladin and Geomancer).  Furthermore, these classes have 8 SP.  On the other hand, Platinum Sword can be equipped by Thieves.  Thus, I think it's fine if we make Platinum Sword weaker than Slasher.

Battle Axe:  I'm trying to avoid a knee-jerk nerf here by increasing the proc rate from 25% to 33%.  Overall damage is still lower than before (0.33*0.50 < 0.25*0.85).  Other weapons hit for over 50% damage 100% of the time, so I don't find this very intimidating.  The proc rate increase will make it nice to punch through targets with Cherche and the new Save the Queen.

Iron Fan and Ivory Rod:  Iron Fan might be at home on Druids if Druids can equip both poles and shields.

Stone Gun:  This gun definitely needs a nerf to make crossbows viable, and The Damned is right in suspecting that removing Init: Petrify will do more harm than good.  Rather, why don't we leave it as is, but make it force two-hands?  We won't need to consume an item attribute space for -1 SP this way.

This is unrelated, but

Lancers: Would anyone be uncomfortable with giving Lancers an extra 1~3 MA?  I recently noticed that Lancers are supposed to be able to use poles. (I say "supposed to" because they clearly cannot with their lousy MA).  If Lancers get extra MA, female Lancers with poles might actually become a "thing."

[The Damned]

(Now we shall play Shrug Fighter 4.).

This will was planned to be extremely concise, partly because I really need[ed] to finish editing for once before falling asleep again:

1. Platinum Sword, Rune Blade, Lioneheart and, I guess, Slasher: I am aware of that. My hesitance is less that Lionheart will become broken or anything and more that it will just continue to overwhelm Platinum Sword. While they're "equal" and Platinum Sword is supposedly superior with Attack Up, a lot of the Lionheart usage has been with Two Swords, where it is obviously (way) superior to Platinum Sword in that department; I point this out especially given your Platinum Sword models earlier involved Two Swords. Additionally, even a lot of the "balls-to-the-wall" (or in the case of Dancer, vagina-to-the-wall) max PA set-ups prefer using Concentrate over Attack UP so they can you, know, actually hit; they also often use other Supports for various reason (provided they can even afford dipping into Geomancer for Attack UP in the first place). This especially on single-targets and especially with mantles seeing way more use in 1.38 ARENA. So I just think making an already great weapon even better when its direct competition isn't getting anything and isn't even being used, at all, is...unjustified, since it's obviously still great even with the preemptive W-EV nerf.

Additionally, I just don't remember the addition of the W-EV being discussed, at all, at least on forum; It might have been discussed on IRC or something, but I pretty much never go there. Not that I remember everything or that everything needs to go through me, but I seriously don't remember it ever even coming up. So it kinda bugged me that I had to notice by reading the list, especially since you pointed out your "personal" changes before.

Regardless, since you mentioned Rune Blade and that's obviously been used a lot as well, how about we come to a "compromise" on this if you think Lionheart really, really needs some W-EV despite all its use already? Given both the stat-boosting swords are (of course) being used the most of all the swords and yet boosting Platinum Sword isn't an option, then perhaps we can boost Lionheart slightly less? (Provided other people agree it actually needs a boost; I'd rather not repeat giving Excalibur +1 WP again just because people agreed that it would be more sensible.)

I personally guess I'd be "fine" with Lionheart getting some evasion...if it's only 5% W-EV...and Rune Blade got simultaneously nerfed to have only 5% W-EV since it's largely on Draw-out bots and crap anyway that should be as prone to hits much as possible for all their AoE. That way they still get evasion, but neither outshines boring and yet unused Platinum Sword in the evasion department at least. (Slasher is probably fine I guess given its damage at least fluctuates. My saying Slashr might be a problem was more due to how much Platinum Sword "sucks" and how all of those Axe-wielding classes also get Swords. As widespread as Swords are, they aren't on every class, so competition is still competition, especially when you have nothing "special" going on.)


2. Battle Axe: I guess. Again, my problem was more that I don't remember discussing it and coming to a (semi-)definitive conclusion, especially anytime recently, beyond everyone agreeing that it should be in the ballpark of 25%, maybe more, and Decapitate needs to be between 50%-55%. It's probably fine though.


3. Druids and Poles: Last FFMaster said anything about Druids, he said he was forgoing giving them Shields at present, so...yeah; they're not getting Shields innately. I guess we could "petition" him to give them access to Equip Shield at least if people are up to it. Then people might actually back me up on saying that Equip Magegear should go to Time Mage where it actually belongs given they have horrible attacking options (if mostly due to current Staves).


4. Stone Gun: I concur, especially since with the much needed nerfs to Spell-guns, Stone Gun automatically becomes the strongest Gun again by default. I never understood why people were comfortable with the Spell-guns and Stone Guns being usable with Shields. Given Forcing Two Hands on the former might be too much after their Nether nerf, the latter seems an acceptable target, especially since it's way less work for FFMaster to do to make sure the -1 SP thing doesn't screw up in the first place.

I'm indifferent as to whether Stone Gun's range should remain nerfed to 5 or not though, especially since it would still have more range than Crossbows anyway. It probably "should" though.


5. Lancers and MA: Yeah, I've been saying that Lancers should get more MA ever since I decided to agree with Raven about the Robes. Let's compromise at +2 MA and see if that's maybe okay; suddenly giving them +3 MA seems a bit much, especially since as horrible as their MA is, I've already done decently enough with a female Lancer using Gokuu Rod. Give them +2 MA also seems easier to adjust either way really.


Shrug. (Also, the more I've thought about it, the slight buff to Frog probably is problematic since I just caught up on a few matches and my female, not-quite-MA-stacked-yet-Pilgrimage-using Wizard managed to Frog another female at 83%, so.... The MP increase nerf should probably stay though.)

[FFMaster]

Don't worry about Lancers and poles, I have a plan in the works for it. I'm mostly done with the patch, just need to add a few ASM tweaks, and some stuff for Monk/Ninja.

[The Damned]

(Well, that was a lot quicker than I expected, especially given everything we were asking you.)

FFMaster, this reminds me: Did Raven inform you of the error he found with regards to the percentage hack you did? I'm not sure what the exact details were or who fixed it, but it was affected some things in Journey of the Five negatively, so you should ask Elric or Raven if they haven't said anything to you.

I'm saying this even though I'm not sure if this affects anything in ARENA.

[FFMaster]

What percentage hack?

[The Damned]

(So, I double-checked....)

And I double-checked your thread as well. I couldn't find the ASM that Raven "blamed" you for, but here's the post I'm talking about (if you haven't found it already considering this is almost an hour later).


Omission EDIT: God damn it. I admitted the n't from after "could". Ugh.

[FFMaster]

I didn't make that hack. He's blaming me for nothing. I've never cared about Zodiac monsters taking 999 from things like Life Drain.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I didn't make that hack. He's blaming me for nothing. I've never cared about Zodiac monsters taking 999 from things like Life Drain.

Then you can blame Chotokukyan blaming you.  :v

God knows it was probably Razele in that case, but it doesn't really matter and I don't really care enough to look.

[The Damned]

(I'll just blame everyone. There.)

Okay, so with that out of the way, since I'm mentioning it, did you ever find out what was wrong with the Oil hack? Also, were you able to fix it so that Oil removed by elemental weapon strikes that didn't kill?

[FFMaster]

No and no. I haven't done any ASM hacking yet. I have an idea about the 2 swords Oil problem thanks to fdc, but it's just an idea. As for the 2nd effect, I'll just make it so Oil doesn't persist after death.

[The Damned]

(Uh...FFMaster....)

You already did the "Oil is canceled by Dead as a fix thing" like...a year and a half ago. In fact, I'm vaguely sure that I "stole" the idea from you considering how simple yet effective it was.

I'll take that as "no" then.

Also, what 2 swords Oil problem? I was just talking about normal elemental weapon strikes that don't kill not getting rid of Oil.

[Dokurider]

In the grand scheme of things, Gaffgarion Gun becoming Kagesougi: The Crossbow isn't truly necessary. With Kagesougi's glut of nerf, both directly (8 MP and losing Don't Act) and indirectly (Hidden Knife losing +1 Speed and Ultima Bow's WP nerf), my main concerns about Kagesougi making the Crossbows almost in their entirety obsolete is mostly addressed. Left as is, Gas Throw Feast Us would be useful again as the strongest PA * WP ranged weapon. However, Kagsougifying The Big G wouldn't hurt it either as it becomes an MP free Kagesougi that would obviate the need for Move MP Up or constant MP maintenance,  freeing up room for other investments, as well as not using up the Secondary Job slot just so you have access to Kagesougi. Overall, it's not bad option in the slightest. Even if nothing else relevant was changed for 1.39 and Kagesougi/Ultima Bow stayed more or less the same, it would still be useful for those purposes as an investment free Kagesougi alone. It's your call in the end, FFM, but let this be the case for the Kagesougi-ing of the Gastropod Gun.

Anyways, here's an alternative idea for the Bow Gun instead of it's current 50% Rape Enemy proc. Lose the proc and give it the Two Hand property. It absolutely works, as I tested it once as an possible idea for ASM'd/1.3 and it worked perfectly. It might need a +1 WP boost to compensate for the lack of Attack Up/Concentrate support.

I remember your solution to the Poles being weak on Lancers was creating a custom formula that use PA or MA, determined by whichever was higher. To me that seems you might as well make Poles PA * WP because even Females Oracles have a good enough PA stat to make them work for them, because all they want from poles is the +MA and frog procs and don't really care too much about the damage aspect of poles anyways. Meanwhile, all the classes that will want to be using it now will obviously favor the PA aspect of the formula.  The only class that would get screwed over by just making a PA * WP class would be the mythical Magic Shield Tank class that everyone wants, which judging from your initial draft of the Druid class, might not be happening.

I'm positive that using Water Ball as a weapon proc will not trigger it's very own proc. If Holy Breath won't trigger it's procedural, I'm pretty sure the same applies to all weapon procs. And even if it did, hoping for a 20% proc off a 33% proc sounds pretty insignificant. I think it's real problem is a simple lack of WP, which I'm pretty sure it's kept low because of the 20% of a 33% proc it has. Suiton sounds pretty sweet. It can also proc Water if all else fails. An alternative solution would be to add Absorb: Water, drop it's WP, and call it Mace of Poseidon: Bladed Edition.

[FFMaster]

I remember the bug you are talking about now Damned. I remember talking to maybe fdc about it ages ago, and it could be linked to the fact that weapon formulas don't go through the Oil removal routine, which may or may not be tricky to enable for them.

Giving Bow gun the option to be 2 handed is a cool idea, I think we could run that for this new patch and see where it goes.