FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

1. I've been meaning to say this for a while now, but giving Bizen Boat will do absolutely nothing to curb it's so called 'abuse' for the simple fact that the AI will use Bizen Boat to interrupt spells. While said caster is Charging. Meaning they can't evade. Making adding M-Ev completely and utter worthless.

Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

The simple fact is that Half of MP is not a support of mages. Not for a type of unit that can easily get all the MP it could ever need. So I don't know what you're worried about. Besides, lowering it's cost will do nothing. It's already incredibly cheap as is. It could be free and it'll still be just as unused.

To add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.

[Dokurider]

Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

Fair enough, if solidly underwhelming.

To add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.

Oh yeah, clothes are gaining the MP boost. I forgot about that. Yeah, adding Half of MP to Time Mage would be a start. It and Yin Yang Magic are the only magic skillsets a non-mage could possibly use that isn't Talk Skill and Yin Yang Magic already has MP recovery covered three fold.

As for Nurse not getting rid of Poison, yeah that's been a thing since vanilla. I believe it's even documented in the BMG. Moral of this story: If you going to run Nurse, you don't need Light Robe. Even without badly interacting mechanics, it'd still be a redundant design choice.

[reinoe]

Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

To add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.

As you've demonstrated, most mage classes have very little use for Half MP.  So perhaps we move it away from mages altogether?  Give it to One of the physical classes that actually needs a usable support skill?  Thieves perhaps?

FOUR HOURS LATER EDIT: Does FLOAT block Kikuichimonji?  If it doesn't block it, then maybe it should?  I'm referring to the Draw Out ability, not the weapon.

[Dokurider]

It'll be fine on Time Mages, not that I was hoping to make Half of MP an excellent support, thereby allowing Short Charge to go back to Time Mages or anything.

FOUR HOURS LATER EDIT: Does FLOAT block Kikuichimonji?  If it doesn't block it, then maybe it should?  I'm referring to the Draw Out ability, not the weapon.

Absolutely. The only difference between Float status and Float the movement is that the movement allows you to stop on Lava Panels.

[CT5Holy]

Just had an idea - what if we gave a shield Initial: Reflect? I was thinking of turning the Crystal Shield into this since its current ability is rather niche. Evade can stay the same, though realistically it'd probably be safer at 15%/15%. Alternatively, give Crystal Shield Initial: Reflect in addition to Neutral: All Elements?

An Initial: Reflect shield with decent evade would be a rather attractive option for mages, or for anyone, actually, haha. I dunno, what do you guys think?

[Reks]

Just had an idea - what if we gave a shield Initial: Reflect? I was thinking of turning the Crystal Shield into this since its current ability is rather niche. Evade can stay the same, though realistically it'd probably be safer at 15%/15%. Alternatively, give Crystal Shield Initial: Reflect in addition to Neutral: All Elements?

An Initial: Reflect shield with decent evade would be a rather attractive option for mages, or for anyone, actually, haha. I dunno, what do you guys think?

*obligatory Zelda Mirror Shield joke here*

Sounds fairly good to me. Also offers another option for reflect, as not everyone wants to use their accessory slot for Reflect Ring or support for Equip Armor, if they can't equip the Mirror Mail already.

[The Damned]

(I'd be all over a Mirror Shield, though I think I'd go with the "safer" P-EV and M-EV considering everything else that's changing, even if Dispel Magic might get a boost.)

As much as I somewhat agree about Half of MP (and in some other senses, really don't), I'd rather just leave Half of MP changes for 140 considering everything else that's changing and FFMaster being busy and/or not around (on the forums).

Unless, of course, we're just talking about this to talk about it since nothing else is still able to be discussed...outside of those Mediator issues...and Quickening...and Kagesougi...and Hidden Knife...and....

Fair enough, if solidly underwhelming.

Life as a whole is pretty underwhelming, so...yeah. Not really surprising about that, though part of the reason was also so that Mage Masher could exist at 100% Bizen Boat proc without being really abusive, even with the piss-poor MA that most Knife users have.

[CT5Holy]

Couple more ideas:

Wall should get lower CT and/or MP. I personally think reducing its MP cost to 15 would be enough. Another possibility would be to reduce its CT to 0, which would make the current MP cost of 25 more justified.

I seem to recall some talk of increasing Geomancy range back to 5. What do people think of this? Also, what about improving the damage formula to ((PA+4)/2)*MA? It would be a very small increase to its damage (~+16 for max damage setup), so I think it would be ok.
That said, I think increasing the range is the more important topic of discussion.

[Dokurider]

Elemental has fallen on the wayside lately, mainly because it's lost a lot of it's utility, mainly as a Sleep/Charm breaker. While that's not likely to ever come back for the sake of making Counter Flood slightly better, giving it back 5 range would at least restore it's old harassment ability. The +2 would be nice, more for increasing minimum/lower end damages.

I think giving Wall 0 CT would be wiser, possibly increasing it's odds of intercepting an otherwise killing blow.

Reflect Shield is also a good idea.

[reinoe]

Is it possible to make it so that Projectile Guard only affects Guns?  Bows and crossbows are already subject to regular evasion.  Projectile Guard just makes the various non-gun items inferior.

[Dokurider]

It can be done, but I disagree since Spellguns are going to fixed and other then that, Bows are actually good enough to justify Projectile Guard.

[The Damned]

(Yes, it would indeed be possible, but I concur with Dokurider here, especially because in the face of both Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi, I also agree that Ultimus Bow is just a tad overpowered; the same is arguable of Mythril Bow too. It should be unnecessary anyway if the Spellguns [and the aforementioned Hawk's Eye & Kagesougi] are getting nerfed as they should and Crossbows are, relatively speaking, getting another buff after they and Bows just got one.)

That said, I certainly wouldn't be against guns perhaps losing their innate auto-Concentrate. That said, I think they should still have some kind of accuracy "bonus" just because, Spellguns' persistent inanity aside, they have intentionally crappy damage to off-set that. I'm including Stone Gun here because you miss a turn and the AI's Berserk routines are way too dumb to make use of any distance weapon effectively most of the time unfortunately despite Stone Gun being the weapon that would benefit the most.

Of course, that's partly motivated by own plans for guns in my hacks that I'm currently still (read: forever) too lazy to code for where they just halve accuracy rather than being sure-hit. Not sure how that would work out though, especially for ARENA.

Also, speaking of guns, where are "we" on that new healing item? Is it still going to be a bag? If so, which bag? I ask partly because of how seldom things get discussed on here--partly because I know they get discussed on mIRC, which I am almost never on--and partly because I was only semi-joking about the healing gun replacing one of either Romanda Gun or Mythril Gun (if "we" are actually combining the two).

****

Anyway, here's map stuff before I forget again.

Looking at Gaignun's selection for Season 6, which is what I've been using for my videos, more closely during my hiatus a couple of weeks ago has led me to disqualify a couple maps, change the classification of another and "suspect" a few. For now, we'll ignore the "suspects" for the most part.

The first disqualified map is VALKYRIES, which is, frankly, terrible and arguably worse than either NOGIAS or even END, which everyone thinks are unusable. The second is Windmill Shed just because the team that starts near the Shed is basically screwed in most instances and the map is really uneven since the Shed in question is huge obstacle.

The changed map is Araguay Woods, which definitely seems like it more fits the definition of a Large map than a Medium map; one of side could probably stand to start slightly farther back though.

What's more, I noticed quite a few seemingly usable maps that just weren't on there:

spoiler: Maps That Should Be More Or Less Fine IMO

1. #007 - Inside of Riovanes Castle [Medium]

2. #011 - Office of Igros Castle [Small]

3. #023 - Belouve Residence [outside of it; possibly usable, though strong potential Fly/Teleport abuse due to severe height difference - Small]

4. #026 - Weapon Storage of Yardow [possibly usable, though extremely narrow at only 4 tiles across, meaning AoE 2+ spells are basically unavoidable in here - Large]

5. #033 - Hospital in Slums [the 3D-ish map; seems fine surprisingly, even in the face of Teleport - Large]

6. #039 - Underground Passage in Goland [like 026, but not as narrow, so a more likely usable - Large]

7. #040 - Slums in Goug [where Mustadio officially joins - not sure if Medium or Large]

8. #041 - Besrodio's House [even with orrery, which I would prefer gone, it should be fine - Medium]

9. #042 - Warjilis Trade City [P1 might have the height adventure; otherwise fine - Medium]

10. #043 - Port of Warjilis [P2 might have the height adventure; otherwise fine - Medium]

11. #047 - Zarghidas Trade City [fine - can't decide if Medium or Large; probably the former]

12. #057 - Underground Book Storage First Floor [where you fight Wiegraf for a second time; possibly okay - can't decide if Medium or Large; probably the former with current starting points]

13. #059 - Underground Book Storage Third Floor [where you fight Izlude; probably fine - Large]

14. #066 - South Wall of Bethla Garrison [a bit spread out, even more so than 007, but otherwise fine - probably a Medium despite its width just because of starting points]

15. #093 - Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building [where Algus interrogates the guy before Sand Rat Cellar; fine - Small]

16. #095 - Church [where Delita & Ramza meet before Zalmo II?; seems fine - Medium]

17. #097 - Inside Castle Gate of Lesalia [unused map with a couple of house behind P2; seems fine - Medium]

18. #099 - Main Street of Lesalia [similarly unused map; seems fine even if one team has to turn a corner right at the start - Large]

Anything that's not mentioned either can't be fixed, like Nelveska Temple & Banished Fort, or is something that I'm even more unsure about, like Grog Hill & Bed Desert.

That said, there are also at least a few maps that could still be improved with start positions even if they are otherwise already usable, including Volcano (really need to start opposing shores), Colliery's 2nd Map (it was the starting one for Taichii vs. xyzqvw that I just recorded), Arena (which I'm still unsure about) and more.

Discuss. Or don't.

Couple more ideas:

Wall should get lower CT and/or MP. I personally think reducing its MP cost to 15 would be enough. Another possibility would be to reduce its CT to 0, which would make the current MP cost of 25 more justified.

I seem to recall some talk of increasing Geomancy range back to 5. What do people think of this? Also, what about improving the damage formula to ((PA+4)/2)*MA? It would be a very small increase to its damage (~+16 for max damage setup), so I think it would be ok.
That said, I think increasing the range is the more important topic of discussion.

I'm fine with both of these. When it comes to Wall, I concur with Dokurider that Wall would probably "need" to become CT 0 to see use compared to Iron Will since that has a literal fourth of the cost.

Not sure how comfortable I am with White Magick becoming even better though. With this suggestion, that means it would have three CT 0 spells, when no other mage has any CT 0 spells, on top of still having Raise, Raise 2 and really powerful offensive in Holy which probably still isn't getting more than slightly nerfed.

So, having supported that, I would move that Wall go back to actually being based off Faith rather than being 100% that occurs.

[CT5Holy]

No, one of Wall's big strengths is that it is 100% hit. Think of it as a reason for the high MP cost. Besides, not all White Magic users necessarily use Holy and/or have high MA. While most WM users would have high Faith for Raise/Raise 2, making Wall Faith based obviously means the success rate drops when the caster targets a low faith teammate, and I think the decrease in accuracy would turn people away from using Wall.

[The Damned]

(I understand that. I'm just saying that giving White Magick that as well just makes it seems too strong.)

That said, very well. Let us "go" with the 100% hit rate that Wall now if we give it CT 0 even though Iron Will would still exist for low Faith users, which is hardly attractive when Chivalry might keep its for-some-reason instant Reraise ability.

I'm sure that wouldn't turn out to be obnoxious at all. [/sarcasm]

[reinoe]

I have a question to noone in particular.  Are murasame (The weapon attack) and Healing Staff subject to evasion?  If my memory is right they weren't subject to evasion in vanilla.

[Barren]

I think they are subject to evasion yes.

[Dokurider]

I have a question to noone in particular.  Are murasame (The weapon attack) and Healing Staff subject to evasion?  If my memory is right they weren't subject to evasion in vanilla.

No they are not.

Two propositions today:
1. Poles are excellent weapons. Their only problem is that they are natively stuck on classes that can't use them to their full potential. Oracles are conflicted about going full melee and would rather just stay casters and use Ivory Rod/Octagon Rod, and Lancer having poles must be some kind of setup for a punchline in the next version. So I propose that Poles get picked up by Geomancers. They have both shields and the move to make full use of Poles. It might even get people to use Iron Fan for once.

2. Heaven's Cloud (the Draw Out). Right now, it is the weakest draw out. It's distinguishing feature has a low proc rate, and even when it does proc, isn't that strong to begin with, and interferes with absorbing strategies. I propose that either it and Asura trade the friendly traits or Heaven's Cloud drops 20% Slow entirely.

[Barren]

I though they were considering that both murasame and healing staff weren't 100% unless paired with concentrate. maybe it's something that I didn't notice or test out

[Dokurider]

Focus should be working. I just found out there is no animation though, you can check it for yourself midbattle. As for Shieldrender/Bowgun, I currently have no idea.

On an unrelated note: I got the item attribute extend hack working. So no more troubles about that. According to my calculations, there should be more than enough room for 1 attribute for every item.

Raven: How long do you think it will take to make a spreadsheet for item attributes 50-EF?

EXTRA NOTE: Formula 07(Healing Staff) isn't evadable.

[Barren]

ahh thanks for the reminder