FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Dokurider]

And it's still there. I just didn't bother typing it for some reason along with Rainbow Staff's Element Neutrality.

[The Damned]

(...Well, it would seem that Otabo preempted me in the realm of both a Mediator-based team and a Knife-based team. Glad I didn't waste time on that.)

Gold Staff getting more P-EV makes sense since it's only one of the Staves, aside from Healing Staff, that you really giving you any real benefit from physically hitting someone. Similarly, I also support Rainbow Staff obviously.

However, I'm not really sure I can get behind White Staff and Wizard Staff's proposed changes, even if, yeah, Wizard Staff desperately needs one "now" that Wizard Rod has been MA*WP instead of PA*WP for a while. Even if they would no longer be Two Sword-able or even Two-Handable (I presume), that still seems like it's infringing on Knightswords design space, who also see relatively little use still; those don't need changes though.

Regardless, I suppose it's something to think about over the next ten or so hours....

[Dokurider]

Oh crap, I forgot about the K-Swords. Okay Plan B:

White Staff: Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Wizard Staff: +1 MA, Always: Transparent

I thought Transparent would be nice in particular for Draw Out users with it adding aggression and unevadability. I'm not sure what's going to happen when caster try to use this.

[Barren]

FFT Arena - Problem with reflect ring

[FFMaster]

Well, we found the problem. Skillset 15(originally Math Skill) skills will automatically ignore Reflect. There's some funny hardcoding which I may or may not be able to find. So that means all Lore is not reflectable for this version.

[The Damned]

([Expletive deleted.] I hate having to sleep.)

I'd rather not have Transparent on anything else considering how much I loathe Hidden Knife and still feel that needs to "change". Regardless of my opinion on that, there's also the matter that there simply isn't any room for new Item Attributes without overriding something else. The only reason my Headband/Ribbon changes would work is because Focus Band would share an already existing one and other two already have their own isolated Item Attributes. So, basically, you'd have to kill an Item Attribute to get +1 MA & Initial: Transparent on something.

Similarly, I'm not really comfortable with giving Half: Fire, Ice & Lightning to a weapon, which is saying a lot considering what my item list for Embargo looks like. I mean, considering that "we" killed off Venetian Shield because of that....

Anyway, since I brought it up, I've thought to include Staves in my Second Formal List of Suggestions™ for ver. 139 (or ver.138e). I think I've thought of something for them, which is "ironic" considering that I took a lot less time to think about them than Poles or Harps, which I still haven't decided on:

spoiler: First Item - Last Song becomes 50% again

 
1. Please change Last Song back to 50% from its current 34%: As detailed before, there's no reason why Last Song shouldn't be 50% still, if only because the AI is often too dumb to make full use of Quick, especially if it's in the middle of already charging something. Also due to the fact that, as CT5Holy pointed out, Quick hitting a target twice or more before it gets its turn doesn't do anything. Of course, you could somewhat argue that same for CT00, but Last Dance's hit-rate is currently fine.

(Never thought I'd be arguing for Sing to be made stronger....)

spoiler: Second Item - Time Mage stat changes

2. Please change Time Mage's stats as Gaignun suggested: Given that, as Gaignun also pointed out, Time Mages have relatively horrible and counterproductive stats, the class itself needs something. Everyone seems to concur that his suggestions were for the best, so there is no reason to deviate from those. As such, I will just reproduce them from page 37:

Code Select Expand


Female
            HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     106  82   9   6  10
Time Mage  125  87   8   3  10

Change      HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     -19  --  +1  --  --
Time Mage  +19 +10  -1  --  +1


(You will have to of course make the same changes for Male Time Mages, whatever those may be.)

spoiler: Third Item - Time Magic(k) changes

3. Please change Time Magic(k) as largely suggested by Raven and a few others: I decided to separate these from asking about stat changes given both that I view them as somewhat separate anyway and everyone was a lot less unanimous about them. I'll just list the proposals I back here:


1. Please reduce the JP cost of Haste 2 from 300 to 200.

2. Please reduce the JP cost of Slow 2 from 300 to 200.

3. Please reduce the JP cost of Sinkhole from 250 to 200.

4. Please increase the Y value of Haste from 60 to 70.

5. Please increase the Y value of Haste 2 from 100 to 115.


I have other, more personal suggestions, but considering that no one has made (good) use of Don't Move or Balance yet, I'll hold off on those for now. They might be completely unnecessary after all.

(I'm ambivalent about Comet getting either more range or becoming 100 JP instead of 150. Please only do one or the other though if you do either.)

spoiler: Fourth Item - Boost Flare...again

4. Flare still seems like it needs a bit of a boost versus Holy. Please give it one: Right now, this is as much an issue with Golden Hairpin as it is with Flare and Holy; Golden Hairpin will be discussed in just a bit though.

At present, it seems that the MP reduction is the change best agreed upon and one that I myself agree with. Therefore, I would ask you to please reduce Flare's MP from 50 to 40.

(Feel free to slightly reduce Holy's overall power by a point Y value-wise if you wish, though even that might be unnecessary with pretty much everyone agreeing that Golden Hairpin needs to lose its +1 MA.)

spoiler: Fifth Item - Further Balance Armors

5. Please change the following Headgear and Body Armor: Originally I was personally just going to ask for Headbands to be rebalanced and to give another Hat or two some MP, but then it ballooned. At present, I'll just use Raven's list since he used my Headband ideas along with some other things I mostly agree with. I'm going to change some things on that list from page 38, but I'll bold what they are:


[HELMETS]
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.

[HATS]
HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2.
HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2.
HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect.
HP 070 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent.
HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.

[HEADBAND]
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.
HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence.
HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.

[ARMOR]
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.

[CLOTHES]
HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2.
HP 120 MP 025 Brigadine - No Added Effects.
HP 100 MP 010 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind.
HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2.
HP 090 MP 015 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth.
HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 100 MP 010 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark.
HP 100 MP 010 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.

[ROBES]
HP 110 MP 050 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.


Most my changes were just switching around MP. I lowered the elemental absorption gear from 20 to 10 and Brigandine from 30 to 25. Meanwhile, I rose Silk Robe from 40 to 50 because of the +X MA Robes and slightly rose Earth Clothes from 10 to 15 because of the other elemental clothes still "needing" to give at least some MP in my mind.

Aside from that, I changed Golden Hairpin back to 70 HP because I figured with it losing +1 MA--as it should--and with the +2 [Stat] hats going up to 70 HP, there's really no reason it should go down to 60 HP considering it's more narrow. This even if it does give MP while those two still don't.

(Admittedly, I'm torn betweewn Earth Clothes having 15 or 20 MP though, as well as still having reservations about a couple of the changes Raven made to my initial suggestions about Headbands.)

spoiler: Sixth Team - Please Balance Staves

6. Staves Still Need a Boost In Usability: Right now, aside from the utterly abusive Mace of Zeus, Staves are extremely mediocre at best. The best Stave after Mace of Zeus is Wizard Staff, which is essentially just a duplicate of Wizard Rod now that Rods are MA*WP instead of PA*WP. Healing Staff is "fine", I suppose considering that it's not really meant for attacking. As such, it doesn't see use still like Murasame doesn't save for "Turn the Enemy Undead" teams, which is also...fine...I guess. Shrug. I still think it could use a bit of a boost since Murasame got one or two recently.

As such, Staves need changes. While Dokurider has come up with a change to Gold Staff that I agree with, since Gold Staff is pretty much the only Staff besides Healing Staff that gives you any real benefit for hitting people presently, that still leaves three that need changes. Well, two if one can assume that the "Crystal Shield's Item Attribute gets Block: Oil" goes through since Rainbow Staff shares that Item Attribute.

Regardless, since thus far White Staff and Wizard Staff are still short-changed and no suggestions for them have been ones I've agreed with, I will propose the following. I fully admit that these changes are made with Time Mage in mind since, at present, they can only equip Staves; well they can also equip Bags technically since everyone can now, which is why Wizard Staff is even more redundant really.

I'll bold the changes:


1. White Staff - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

2. Healing Staff - WP: 12; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy and Dark; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

3. Rainbow Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Non-Elemental; Special: Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

4. Wizard Staff - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Cast: Dark (Dmg_F[MA*6] Dark Element spell that has 20% Add: Silence and is subject to M-EV); Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.

5. Gold Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 20%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

6. Mace of Zeus - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Special: Absorb: Lightning, No longer Strengthen: Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


As stated above, half of these were made with Time Mage in mind, the new Healing Staff in particular since it can share an Item Attribute with the new Golden Hairpin (instead of Excalibur) and would strengthen the Demis. Healing Staff's new changes will make it both so that Golden Hairpin isn't the sole holder of that particular boost (as it is now) and so that Healing Staff can actually be used Two Swords style with something other than itself. With these changes, it is compatiable with the new White Staff (which can actually be used on Holy Absorb teams now) or the new Wizard Staff (which isn't a clone of Wizard Rod anymore now); yes, Healing Staff is already compatible with the three elemental Rods, but to a lesser extent obviously since it already never boosted any of their elements and because literally no one has ever used it as such--also because not all mages can equip both Rods & Staves.

The new White Staff and the new Wizard Staff are such as to mirror each other obviously, right down to the "necessary" creation of a Dark to rival Dia. I think that's a lot more "fair" than my original idea to make it cast Demi, for better or for worse. It may not be all that "fair" ultimately, though, since Two Swords on both means that Wizard Staff could be used with Sadist's Whip (on Priests) while White Staff doesn't get that equivalent. So feel to up White Staff's power a bit if you want. That or lower Dark's cast chance a bit.

Rainbow Staff and Gold Staff's changes are self-explanatory, so I'll quickly say that I took away Mace of Zeus's Strengthening because it just seems like it had the same problem that Excalibur originally had of doing too much. Mages can already equip Black Robes, 108 Gems and, if they really want to, Two Swords Thunder Rod and Mace of Zeus or equip Shield Mace of Zeus with Kaiser Plate. There's really no reason that the strongest of the Wizard elements should come pre-strengthened on something that absorbs it IMO, especially now that Pilgrimage is around too.

(Please, for the love of death, change Rainbow Staff's element in worksheet to None next version since I'm pretty sure it's been non-elemental for at least a month or two.

Also, for Dark, if you use that idea, feel free to juse use Demi/Pitfall's animation. Of course, I suppose you could just use one of the Lucavi's Fear animations. I honestly don't think I even know what Darkness's animation looks like though. Additionally, I'd avoid using Blind 2 since that takes a bit. Feel free to change the name to like Harm--if you want to be ironic--or something if you feel an attack named Dark is too confusing. [/insert nagging about changing all instances of "Darkness" to "Blind"])


...Hmmm...I guess I'll leave the third (and final?) list of suggestions for next weekend, when I'll "actually have time" to look through all of 138d in FFTPatcher. In theory at least. We know how that tends to go....

Well, we found the problem. Skillset 15(originally Math Skill) skills will automatically ignore Reflect. There's some funny hardcoding which I may or may not be able to find. So that means all Lore is not reflectable for this version.

Heh. For a minute, when you said "all Lore", I was thinking you just meant the "everything on screen" abilities, which have been Reflectable. Not that I would mind them being subject to Reflect or M-EV really....

Still, hunh. That's a pain in the ass.

*notes this in general*

[Dokurider]

I'd rather not have Transparent on anything else considering how much I loathe Hidden Knife and still feel that needs to "change". Regardless of my opinion on that,

Oh no, unevadability = OP!

there's also the matter that there simply isn't any room for new Item Attributes without overriding something else. The only reason my Headband/Ribbon changes would work is because Focus Band would share an already existing one and other two already have their own isolated Item Attributes. So, basically, you'd have to kill an Item Attribute to get +1 MA & Initial: Transparent on something.

Right and that's what I killed White Staff for.

[The Damned]

(Well that was slightly quicker than I was expecting.)

Even if it wasn't necessarily what I was expecting to get quoted really.

Oh no, unevadability = OP!

Considering that whether something is avoidable or not is part of the entire balancing act, being unavoidable certainly can be overpowered. That said, I made no explicit mention of my problem with Hidden Knife being that it's "overpowered", that's it's "overpowered" because of Always: Transparent or that my sole problem with it is Always: Transparent.

The fact it currently still obviates Sasuke Knife is one of the things that keeps bugging me, which I'm still trying to think of a solution for.

Right and that's what I killed White Staff for.

...Except that there's nothing on White Staff to kill. Right now White Staff has no Item Attribute; it only casts Dia 50% of the time (if anyone would use it). So I don't understand how you "killed" anything on White Staff with respect to Item Attributes.

While it's true that you're just having it share White Robe's Item Attribute in your latest proposal, you're still asking for another new Item Attribute space, +1 MA & Always: Transparent, to be made solely for Wizard Staff. This when FFMaster ran out of Item Attribute space awhile ago. So, yeah, you'd still have to kill an Item Attribute for that, which is doubly not worth it to me.

[FFMaster]

We aren't killing any attribute spaces. I have a good plan in the works to expand attribute space. One unique attribute for every item. Arena only of course, unless you can somehow find 0xf00 free bytes in SCUS.

I'm going to need someone who is good with spreadsheets when all my testing is done since I can't make one for the life of me.

[The Damned]

(*points at Raven*)

I'm at best only mediocre with spreadsheet stuff, though if you only need someone for tedious stuff, then I can probably do it instead of him.

[reinoe]

Yeah, staves really do need to be differentiated from Rods.

Since idea are flying about...

spoiler: Staves

White Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Healing Staff - WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Wizard Staff - WP: 5; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Speed +1; Null:Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.

As for the other Staves, I don't know what to think about them.  Except I like Mace Of Zeus as it is.  Wizards don't have access to it and scholars have better options for boosting Lightning.

I'd like to see Mimes immune to Blind, DA, and Silence.  I don't think they'd be overpowered with those protections.

[The Damned]

(More Speed isn't actually desirable for mages in most instances, so I can't get behind that Wizard Staff

As for Wizard's not having access to Mace of Zeus, other classes have access to Black Magic and I'm not seeing what better option that Scholars get for boosting Lightning.)

As for Mimes, I can't get behind any of that. I could may be get behind Blind if Concentrate were vulnerable to Blind (as it "should" be), but since it isn't and Mimes have Concentrate...yeah, it's superfluous. Similarly, Silencing a Mime does nothing IIRC; that's one of the things I'm pretty sure I tested personally years ago.

As for Don't Act, outright no. Mimes mean (a lot of) extra actions if used/planned correctly. There should be some way to stop extra actions besides outright Death (or Stop), especially since Silence doesn't work them as aforementioned. Additionally, like a quarter of the Mime teams that exist have a Monk on them, which means they have Stigma Magic to cure Don't Act if they're even worried about it since it doesn't show up all that commonly; Don't Act is frequent, yeah, but hardly on even half of all teams.

[reinoe]

(More Speed isn't actually desirable for mages in most instances, so I can't get behind that Wizard Staff

As for Wizard's not having access to Mace of Zeus, other classes have access to Black Magic and I'm not seeing what better option that Scholars get for boosting Lightning.)

Not a lot of classes have access to a speed boosts via weapons.  If Staves are to get a boost then I figured I'd try something out of the ordinary.

While it's true that other classes get access to Black Magic it's also true that Black Magic is very underpowered right now.  Plus, aside from Scholars, no other class has access a Wizards MA power.  Summoners can equip Staves, but Ramuh has a low Q value.  Scholars can boost Thunder Flare with Zeus, but Faith Rod or Wizard Rod will take it's place: in fact some teams are already spamming Thunder Flare with those.

Mimes seem underpowered but I'm willing to acknowledge that mine may be a minority opinion.  Mimes have no equip options to defend themselves from the most debilitating statuses.  I forgot about their innate Concentrate, but them getting silenced is still very bad.

[The Damned]

(Everyone please remember to set your temporal-measuring devices back an hour if you or they themselves already haven't.)

Speaking of reminders, I suppose I should say again that as bossy as I can be and as much as I can nag FFMaster (especially), I'm ultimately not in control of things, so it's not like people should feel they have defend themselves especially again me. Not that I think that's the case in most instances here, but since I feel like I'm starting to become (extra) controlling again, I just feel the need to reiterate that. Sorry.

Not a lot of classes have access to a speed boosts via weapons.  If Staves are to get a boost then I figured I'd try something out of the ordinary.

I suppose. I just don't see how speed boosts, even if they are rare (with good reason), really belong on any most mage weapons. I could maybe see them on Sticks or even Harps, but that's because both of those have distance and I'd argue their main magical classes, Oracle & Bard respectively, actually benefit from being a little faster like Priest. When it comes it on a Stave, it makes "sense" in the sense that a Stave easily doubles as a "walking stick", but as far as functionality goes.... Well, we were just talking about how speed isn't good for Time Mages. As such, I'd rather keep all Staves as something that Time Mages can use well if they're going to be forced to use only them (and Bags).

That might just be me though.

While it's true that other classes get access to Black Magic it's also true that Black Magic is very underpowered right now.

Aside from Flare being overpriced, I'm not really seeing this, especially since Black Magic(k) technically extends into spellguns.

Why, besides Flare, do you think Black Magic is still "very underpowered"? 

Plus, aside from Scholars, no other class has access a Wizards MA power.  Summoners can equip Staves, but Ramuh has a low Q value.  Scholars can boost Thunder Flare with Zeus, but Faith Rod or Wizard Rod will take it's place: in fact some teams are already spamming Thunder Flare with those.

And some teams are "spamming" Thunder Flare with Zeus Mace, which is really more beneficial in the long to "spamming" Thunder Flare as it is now. Even with it losing Strengthening, it would still be the best thing to Spam Zeus Mace with.

Mimes seem underpowered but I'm willing to acknowledge that mine may be a minority opinion.  Mimes have no equip options to defend themselves from the most debilitating statuses.  I forgot about their innate Concentrate, but them getting silenced is still very bad.

I agree that I'd like to see Mimes get equipment options. I think that everyone would, but it's annoyingly hardcoded and no one has figured it out for years, so who knows when (or if) it will ever happen, especially in ARENA.

As for them being Silenced, I'm pretty sure that being Silenced doesn't affect their Miming at all. I'll admit that I'm not entirely sure, but I'm inclined to think that I'm actually remembering something correctly for once.

[CT5Holy]

+1 Speed seems like an interesting idea for Wizard Staff. I'm fine with this proposal.

Mimes are hard to use, not underpowered. Mimes can give so much free damage, either directly (mimicking an action that hurts an enemy) or indirectly (via buffs, like Songs). Pretty huge upside to them. Of course, Mimes are fairly useless on their own, but they're not meant to be used on their own.
They do have protection from some rather debilitating statuses, by the way. Dead is really bad because 1. Mimes are really tanky and 2. Dead Mimes = no free actions. Undead is bad because you don't have a reliable way to get your Mime back once they get Raise 2'd (not to mention if he does get back, it takes 4 turns) -> no free actions. Petrify, even if most teams have a way to cure it, is still obviously really bad. Berserk... eh, it's certainly worse if a support member gets hit by it, but Mimes don't have great melee damage and I think Berserk stops them from miming. If Frog didn't now cancel upon death, I'd suggest giving Mimes immunity to Frog, but it's also a fairly rare status.

Wait, Black Magic got a massive buff and it's still underpowered? Water element 1. allows for Water-absorb based teams and 2. gives Black Magic unreflectable magic. Reflect no longer shuts down Black Magic. Tier 1 spells now can proc status, all of which are fairly relevant. Nether spells use Un-Fury formula, which allows them to hurt 40/40 units (since Black Magic users will also usually have 40 Fury themselves). The damage is solid, too. Tier 1 spells can do 200+ (provided you're built for damage). I really don't see how Black Magic is underpowered.

I also have no idea where you get the ideas that Scholars have better options for boosting Lightning and that Thunder Flare spammers would rather use Faith Rod or Wizard Rod. Ok, Faith Rod I can understand since it dramatically boosts magic, but certainly not Wizard Rod. Strengthen: Element will almost certainly give at least 3 MA, and 3 > 2. You also get automatic Absorb: Lightning with Mace of Zeus, and that's what makes it the best weapon to use for Thunder Flare. Strengthen and Absorb of the same element in one Item. Since you think Black Robe or 108 Gems is better for boosting Lightning than Thunder Flare (does anything else Strengthen: Lightning? oh Kaiser Plate, I suppose. I think that's all though), notice how you need to devote a second equipment slot to Absorb Lightning if you use either of those items, including Kaiser Plate if you decide to give your Scholar Equip Shield. It's simply worse.

[reinoe]

The back&forth is enjoyable, especially compared to a situation I'm dealing with on Facebook...

Spoilering to save space...

spoiler: What TheDamned Said

(Everyone please remember to set your temporal-measuring devices back an hour if you or they themselves already haven't.)

Speaking of reminders, I suppose I should say again that as bossy as I can be and as much as I can nag FFMaster (especially), I'm ultimately not in control of things, so it's not like people should feel they have defend themselves especially again me. Not that I think that's the case in most instances here, but since I feel like I'm starting to become (extra) controlling again, I just feel the need to reiterate that. Sorry.

I suppose. I just don't see how speed boosts, even if they are rare (with good reason), really belong on any most mage weapons. I could maybe see them on Sticks or even Harps, but that's because both of those have distance and I'd argue their main magical classes, Oracle & Bard respectively, actually benefit from being a little faster like Priest. When it comes it on a Stave, it makes "sense" in the sense that a Stave easily doubles as a "walking stick", but as far as functionality goes.... Well, we were just talking about how speed isn't good for Time Mages. As such, I'd rather keep all Staves as something that Time Mages can use well if they're going to be forced to use only them (and Bags).

That might just be me though.

Aside from Flare being overpriced, I'm not really seeing this, especially since Black Magic(k) technically extends into spellguns.

Why, besides Flare, do you think Black Magic is still "very underpowered"? 

And some teams are "spamming" Thunder Flare with Zeus Mace, which is really more beneficial in the long to "spamming" Thunder Flare as it is now. Even with it losing Strengthening, it would still be the best thing to Spam Zeus Mace with.

I agree that I'd like to see Mimes get equipment options. I think that everyone would, but it's annoyingly hardcoded and no one has figured it out for years, so who knows when (or if) it will ever happen, especially in ARENA.

As for them being Silenced, I'm pretty sure that being Silenced doesn't affect their Miming at all. I'll admit that I'm not entirely sure, but I'm inclined to think that I'm actually remembering something correctly for once.

spoiler: Response

spoiler: Black Magic

Black Magic seems underpowered because it's rarely chosen as a secondary.  I supposed it could be that it's actually perfectly balanced, but people are just not choosing Black Magic.  I used to play a CCG and incredibly powerful strategies sometimes wouldn't get used because people didn't discover them until they were proven to be effective.

spoiler: Staves

I'd increase the power of Healing Staff to 14 because it never sees any play.  I see the Season 1 stats and it never saw any play, and it's currently not seeing any play now.

Wizard Staff getting a speed boost is to give spellcasters an option that they currently have in only a limited capacity.

I'm feeling inspired...
Gold Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 30%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.
The high power is to encourage people to create spellcasters who will enter combat.  Since magic-users are squishy I'd greatly increase the Evasion on the staff as well.


I have no idea what to do with Rainbow Staff.

spoiler: Long bows

Surprisingly these seem to be going under the radar when it comes to weapons that need balancing.  Of course like I said previously, these things could be perfectly balanced, but nobody has tried them out yet.

Long Bow - WP: 14; W-EV: 10%; Range: 6; Special: Move+1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.

For lightning bow and Ice Bow perhaps let them stay the same but instead of the MA bonus give them PA bonus.

Yeah, I suck at balancing.  But with enough crappy ideas maybe one of them will actually be usable.

[The Damned]

(I'm not sure that's a fair comparison considering Facebook is a "social network", which means it pretty much is automatically horrible. [/has no social network "page"])

I see. I will respond in an enumerated fashion if only because I've used spoilers enough already (on this page) and this should be comparatively concise:

1. Judging Black Magic(k)...By Secondaries: I'm not really sure that's such a good judgment for several reasons, one of them being the CCG analogy that you point out. Even that isn't really as appropriate since the relative smallness of ARENA and the constant "expansions" means that most of us still generally don't "copy" each other within the same version and there's been at least nine in the past couple of years. Due to all the changes it just endured, Black Magic as a whole is very new again.

Aside from that, when it comes to Secondaries, that tends to automatically get dominated by things with revival. This seems especially true on the magickal side given that White Magic(k) and Summon Magic(k) both have the higher revival than all their physical (or, in the case of Phoenix Down, just non-magickal) counterparts and come with attacks; Summon Magic even comes with AoE. Since even Basic Skill sees use as a Secondary despite Wish being horrible, even moreso after Poison's boost (as a status), and since Black Magic is one of the many skill sets that doesn't have revival, that tends to be a factor.

Another factor is that even with the Nether Magick, a lot of people want to deal more reliable magick damage, for which there is always still Draw Out and, to a lesser degree now, Summon Magic.

Probably the most pressing one that I can think of, though, is simply that a lot of people tend to use Wizards as their primary due to the high MA you pointed out when you were arguing that Mace of Zeus should keep Strengthen Lightning. So "arguably" Black Magic is better used as a Primary than a Secondary anyway since Wizard's stats are actually rather good, especially now that Rods go off MA rather than PA.


2. Six Sagely Staves: I'd argue that Healing Staff still won't get use regardless of how high its WP is as long as all it does is a) heal at close-range only and b) only strengthen an element that's only found on two classes, both of which already have distance and AoE healing. The only way its WP would matter is if you boosted it so high that it easily did enough to OHKO Undead units with at least 250+ HP and even then it would probably still only be found on, you know, teams that actually tried to cause Undead (of which there are already a few).

Hence why I only increased its W-EV and focused on increasing its usability via Strengthen. With Strengthen Dark to compliment Holy (and not use up a new Item Attribute), it automatically becomes useful to Time Mages (Demi, Demi 2), Scholars (Shadow Shade, Bio 3), Samurai (Koutetsu...though it's inferior to Koutetsu Knife for just that unless on an Undead-causing team), weird Ninja (Meiton and, technically, Kagesougi and Tsumazuku) and Wizards (since Death is technically Dark, even if Wizards can't equip Staves naturally) as well. This in addition to becoming more useful to Summoners, even if Odin doesn't need a boost, and actually being usable with Two Swords with other Staves besides itself and the currently overpowered Mace of Zeus, which is far better used for distance healing already/at present; of course, the latter only really applies with my other changes to White Staff and Wizard Staff.

...Getting away from self-promotion, I can't agree with Gold Staff having that much evasion. Mages are squishy, but they're not that squishy. And there's really no reason that anything that gives 30% P-EV should be able to used with Two Swords. Even 20% W-EV is kinda pushing it, but at least that is more or less "equal" to just a single Main Gauche. Similarly, the WP seems a bit much since it has a reliable special effect unlike pretty much every other weapon aside from Chaos Blade, Poison Rod and Bloody Strings.

Besides, IMO, Rainbow Staff should probably be the strongest WP-wise (after Healing Staff) if it's probably "only" just going to get Block: Oil, which is enough really since then it allows Mages & Squires (and others that already equip Shields, if they use Equip Magegear) to use elemental shields without having to use an Armor or Accessory slot to not die horribly to their weakness. It would get additional points just for Blocking Oil, especially if Oil got a boost, which I'm getting more and more uncertain about blocking.


3. Long Bows Are (Probably) Fine: Admittedly, they may still be slightly overshadowed "Because (Spell)guns" and having 100% accuracy unless you use Projectile Guard...which also blocks Longbows (and Crossbows). As with Black Magic and, really, anything you feel is underpowered or overpowered, it's better to try to make a team yourself to use that technique to show its crippling flaws or overwhelming power than to wonder "what if". You seem capable enough of that and pretty everyone (else) here is nice enough to give you advice without biting off you head if you want it (or, at times, even if you don't).


...What? That's concise for me. I did say "comparatively" after all.

[Dokurider]

Procs are not apart of Item Attributes. Noted.

Black Magic is just fine. It's just people's preferences skewing the data.

+1 Speed on Wizard Staff would be good for Draw Out Mages and other non-caster builds. Making staves appealing outside of casters is good.

30% W-Ev is way too high, especially if they are to be two sworded, ending up with 60% W-Ev. Just way too high. Take away Two Swords? Make them Forced Two Hands? They work best being Two Swordable, because Gold Staff is very attractive for mix and matching with other weapons. Gold Staff/Poison Rod would be a decent combo. Or Gold Staff/Dragon Rod. Both of which nets you 30% W-Ev. 20% W-EV is perfectly fine.

Increasing the power of the Healing Staff is not going to change anything. Honestly, after thinking it over, I think it's just an underutilized weapon. Other than it's sister weapon, the Murasame, it is the only weapon in the game that guarantees your caster unit is not going to go full retard and whack a slab of meat covered in metal for dink damage and die when it's turn comes up. Sealing the melee option may actually be a worthwhile, if somewhat abstract, option. It means that a unit can freely invest in Move without worrying about the unit straying out of reach of your team.

I think someone needs to make the first plunge and see how well it actually works out. I was actually considering equipping the priest and my Time Mage (coincidentally, the only Time Mage in Arena play) with Healing Staff, but I reconsidered because I wanted Auto Regen instead. I might just try putting my money where my mouth is and try it myself. I'll update my teams to try this out shortly. Also consider it's a stronger, instant Cure. If you're willing to gamble a little, it can save your unit some much needed JP. It's only real problem in this regard is that a unit who want to use it in this regard have low brave, resulting in suboptimal healing. Perhaps it should be exempted from the Fury mechanic somehow, or perhaps it should have it's WP upped after all.

I'd rather have Long Bow increased to 7, maybe 8, Range than +1 Move. Nobody thinks the +1 Range stands up to +1 PA, +1 Speed, or Element typing with a helping of procs. Alternatively, keep the +1 Range, but give it Initial: Float. I do agree that the 2 MA is useless on the Elemental Bows and should be removed, perhaps replaced even. I would just bump it's WP to 14 instead of +2 PA though.

Since we're mentioned under used weapons:
Slasher: 8 WP, 50% Extra Attack.
Just an interesting revamp to an otherwise unimpressive weapon. 12 WP isn't all the impressive, especially if you're going to hit for only half of it's damage half of the time. It's far wiser to opt for it's less cousin that comes with the Decap proc or it's Ele Boosting Cousin.

Persian: Initial: Haste
Cashmere: +2 Speed

Good Dance Bots value Speed over damage, wanting to get started Dancing as soon as possible to disrupt the enemy. These changes will allow Dancers to naturally take that route. Initial: Protect and Shell don't really help dancers out all that much. Dedicated dancers rarely get good use out of them before they wear off.

[The Damned]

(Hunh. Hadn't realized I'd gotten the actual 777th post in here.)

Before I forget again, I have to again ask something: Has anyone checked to see if Shieldrender's proc is working if Bowgun's supposedly isn't? Same with making sure that Focus is actually working since someone said it supposedly wasn't?

Procs are not apart of Item Attributes. Noted. *snip*

Ohhhhh.... That's where your confusion was.

Yeah, we'd be pretty screwed variability-wise if Procs weren't independent of Item Attributes like Elements, WP, EV, Speed, PA, MA, MP and, of course, HP already are. There are already only 64 Item Attributes spaces in the game--as opposed to the 112 spaces for Inflict Statuses. And it's already difficult to create variability over 300+ items.

If procs were a part of it, then we'd all be screwed. (Even if, "ironically", Square would have likely afforded Item Attributes more space because of that.)

As for everything else....

1. Black Magic(k): I concur.


2. + 1 Speed Wizard Staff: Still feeling Meh. I'd rather not encourage already overused Draw Out on mages, but again, I accept that this might just be me.


3. Gold Staff: I concur.


4. Healing Staff (& Murasame): Hmmm...that's certainly an interesting way to think about it, especially in terms of Murasame. I wonder.....

Still, I think that Healing Staff does need a bit of an upgrade still, just not WP-wise. I think it needs an upgrade in part because, IIRC, it's still subject to P-EV despite it being advantageous to hit, just like Cursed Ring & Death('s formula).

I'll try and think of something, though I currently have two other teams in mind in addition to having to fix at least three of my own. Maybe I'll work in it into the non-elemental one, though someone else could always do it, especially since I kind of want to work more with Murasame at present....


5. Long Bow, Lightning Bow & Ice Bow: At present, nothing has Initial Float, so that's out. I'd say +1 Move or Range 7 actually isn't really a bad idea, but I'm not sure it needs it, really, since it's not like it's that much weaker than the other bows and it having plus two range over them seems a bit much.

As for Lightning Bow & Ice Bow, yeah, the +2 MA are doing even less now then when those were supposed to actually procing things that would be strengthened by it. At the same time, them still having that isn't really hurting anything and I think they already have enough power, especially now that they proc things that are a lot more dangerous in hands of an Archer.

6. Slasher: I suppose I could get behind this since only advantages that Slasher has over Battle Axe at present being better with the Cross attacks and having higher potential damage (if the opponent absorbs Dark, since I'm pretty sure Decapitation is Dark given its nature). Of and of course both of those are trumped by Giant Axe due to its innate Strengthening.


7. Cloths that don't Reflect: I see where you're coming from, but I have to respectively disagree that Initial: Protect & Initial: Shell aren't useful for Dancers at all. However, in this instance, the changes you propose are currently possible.

[FFMaster]

Focus should be working. I just found out there is no animation though, you can check it for yourself midbattle. As for Shieldrender/Bowgun, I currently have no idea.

On an unrelated note: I got the item attribute extend hack working. So no more troubles about that. According to my calculations, there should be more than enough room for 1 attribute for every item.

Raven: How long do you think it will take to make a spreadsheet for item attributes 50-EF?

EXTRA NOTE: Formula 07(Healing Staff) isn't evadable.