FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[RavenOfRazgriz]

In regards to Fire Shield, you'd heal 2x the damage.

Wrong.

If you read the Master Guide under Elemental Absorption, it makes it very clear that anything that gives Absorb will also give both the Half and Weak properties, meaning Absorption will always heal 1x damage regardless of your other equipment.  I know it does because I harassed FFMaster for about 4-5 version releases until he included the goddamn line because it's otherwise undocumented.

Absorb: Element
Anything labelled Absorb is always neutral. This means you cannot do Weak: Element and Absorb: Element to double the absorb. Oil Also falls under this restriction.

[Swiss]

I was wondering if MP switch is allowed because i think it is pretty cheap.  Its not in the master's guide, but i noticed in the team builder in the memcard gen it allows you to put it in, and apparently its a squire ability.

[reinoe]

Speaking of the master's guide, I noticed that it's not in synch with the unit generator spreadsheet.  It's not really too far off but it's noticable to me because I like the Paladin skillset and there are things that don't match up there.

[The Damned]

(Well, it would look like reinoe's observation got addressed by Fantactic, maybe, so I'll just ask something else since it was brought up.)

When it comes to the new Oil and the weakness it generates, does that weakness override Absorption? Or does any absorbed element still get absorbed the usual rate if the unit is covered in Oil?

Similarly, if the absorption works regularly, then does the Oil status still dissipate?

I was wondering if MP switch is allowed because i think it is pretty cheap.  Its not in the master's guide, but i noticed in the team builder in the memcard gen it allows you to put it in, and apparently its a squire ability.

MP Switch isn't allowed at present.

I'm not sure why it even shows up in the Memory Card Generator since Squire doesn't have it in the patch itself. The only thing Squire has at present that it shouldn't have is Masamune, but MP Switch doesn't show up in its RSMs, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

As memory serves, a unit with Oil in Arena should ignore Absorb, Half, Null entirely and force only-Weak: Elements onto the target, regardless of previous existing elemental affinities.

[reinoe]

So far to date, I've never seen anyone get poisoned by Wiznaibus even though it has a 15% proc rate according to the Master Guide.

[FFMaster]

I'm betting I forgot to do something like set a status add% again.

[Swiss]

it doesn't say it but it allows you to put it in the reactions section, and under jp used it states the jp used as from a squire

[The Damned]

(So after this gets posted, I'll be gone until at least Friday afternoon, probably longer.)

Something that slipped my mind when it came to that massive list I posted in the download thread (that might have been better suited for this one). It doesn't help that it's not terribly important....

That said, I keep getting the impression that Feather Boots need a bit more of a boost what with Diamond Armlet now Absorbing Earth. Even if Diamond Armlet only Nulled Earth instead, that would kinda be stepping on Feather Boots' toes when it already has a lot to compete with, especially since at least four other things cancel Earth, including the Float Movement; of those, only the helm is impermanent.

The only problem is that I'm not really sure what else you could reasonably give it since you already gave it Move +1 and Immune: Don't Move in addition to Always: Float.

Perhaps it needs nothing, especially since I think it's seem at least some use as opposed to some other shoes. (Has anyone used Red Shoes? I honestly can't think of any team.)

Still, it having more competition now reminded me that perhaps it needs more.

***

This is unrelated, but I also just reminded something else I had meant to mention: If Oil does indeed overcome elemental absorptions and everything else, then it seems rather necessary that Item Attribute 1F, the one gives neutral all elements, needs to also have "Immune: Oil". At present, nothing else is making you weak to an element if you weren't already weak to it aside from Cursed Ring or, if a mage wants to use Equip Shield for some reason, one of the elemental shields with Rainbow Staff.

Again, not really necessary perhaps, especially since Diamond Armlet got Immune: Oil as did 108 Gems, but it was something that popped into my head.

it doesn't say it but it allows you to put it in the reactions section, and under jp used it states the jp used as from a squire

Weird. Then again, I don't think I've ever touched that memory card function, so I have no idea how it actually works.

Regardless, it's not allowed.

[FFMaster]

I have no idea about the MP Switch problem. Might be on Xif's end. Try putting in other RSM's like Non-charge, Move+3 and Blade Grasp. If they are saying it should be on Squire, that pretty much confirms that the bug is on the spreadsheet. Otherwise... I dunno, I'm sure I never gave Squire MP Switch ever, and it's not on my current ISO.

Masamune was there because I was testing it before use ages back, and forgot to remove it from the skillset. I can't actually test the Draw Out skillset directly due to bugs, so I normally just add skills to the Squire skillset to test and then remove them.

The idea about giving Immune Oil is a good idea I think. And yes, maybe Feather Boots is slightly weaker than most of the other accessories. I think we can do something for Battle Boots/Red Shoes next version though.

EDIT: The plan is to deconstruct ALMA 3/4 and transform it from bloatware to something that only extends the item attributes. I have never used either one though, so I don't know which one to work off. Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT2: I'll get to work on bug cleaning tomorrow if I have time.

[Barren]

Are bards still allowed to equip robes? Cause I know in Xif's spreadsheet that it says Bards can equip robes. Even without equip clothes or magegear

[FFMaster]

Bards have had Robes checked for a while, but I always forget to remove it.

[CT5Holy]

I've used Red Shoes, and IMO it's fine, but a buff/revamp never hurts. It isn't used as often as Battle Boots because mages have range, so the extra move isn't as important. Red Shoes is basically for Draw Out users, since they need to be closer to the opponent to do damage than the average mage.

On a completely unrelated note, Wall MP cost down to 15-18? It has not seen play in a very long time, and part of that may be due to the high MP cost (or it may be due to AI being bad with Protect/Shell).

[reinoe]

Are my eyes deceiving me or is "CURE 4 AOE =0" on the Master Guide?  I'm making a team with priests right now and I'm switching out Cure 4 for Cure 3.

[FFMaster]

Cure 4 is AoE 0.

[Gaignun]

How does merging Battle Boots and Red Shoes into one accessory that gives 1 Move, 1 PA, and 1 MA sound?  Unless the unit is a Geomancer or is sporting some novelty build, this new accessory is still only going to be used for one stat.  This will free up item space for something else, like Genji Armor, which currently does not have space of its own.

Also, Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet need EV buffs.  They were left behind (as if they weren't behind already!) with the mantle buffs. How does the following sound until these things are overhauled entirely?

Power Wrist: 1 PA, 20 P-EV, 10 M-EV
Genji Gauntlet: 1 MA, 10 P-EV, 20 M-EV

This puts them in line with Vanish Mantle and Small Mantle, giving the player a choice between bonus damage and elemental immunity.

[Dokurider]

Houkouton should be free considering Spin Fist is free and has better AoE and better damage potential. At best, they're roughly equal.

[Gaignun]

Back with another (fabulous) idea: reinvent Black Magic's Death to deal light damage with a chance of death.  Something like:

Death: 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 24 MP, Dark element, Dmg_F(MA*8), 20% Add: Dead, 200 JP

This would make it like Dia, but with more damage and a better status proc.  Keeping these advantages in check is its higher MP cost (4x more costly), higher JP cost (50 more), arguably less useful element for offense (Dark), and being on a skill set without a resurrection ability (Black Magic).

What is key to making this ability attractive is not its Dead proc, which, at 20%, is going to be unreliable, but its 0 CT.  This would make it Black Magic's only 0 CT ability, inviting people toward it for its instantaneous damage, Black Costumes be damned.  Its high MP cost is going to keep SP-stacked units from spamming the skill to proc Dead all over the opposing team, too.

Also, is anyone comfortable with lowering the JP cost of Lore's all-map spells from 200 to 150?  This would make it easier for Lore users to bring more than one spell into battle lest they encounter teams that absorb their chosen element.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I don't see what purpose that serves other than making Black Magic the bar-none go-to source of offensive magic.  It already has skills with meager CTs (3-5) across a wide array of elements, can bypass Reflect, can bypass the Faith system, can hit for focused or area damage, etc.  One of the Wizard's few real remaining drawbacks is that it has no instant skills.  Death probably needs its CT shortened or JP cost dropped a bit because 7 CT / 200 JP is a tad silly for it compared to other skills in the skillset, but it already fills a unique role in the Black Magic skillset as being the resident tank-buster - the one skill Black Magic has that ignores Shell and Magic DefendUP almost entirely, similarly to how the Water series can ignore Reflect and the Back series can ignore Faith (at the cost of considering Un-Fury instead).

Seems like you want to throw out a skill with a unique role just to make a Dia clone in a skillset that's already been heavily buffed and has very few remaining drawbacks.  Expecting people to use skillsets like Draw Out or White Magic when they want an instant-gratification MA based skill?  Pfft, let me just tie their all-in-one mage up with a fancy little bow while I'm at it, too.


As for lowering Lore's JP costs... I don't see any harm in lowering the map-wide ones from 200 to 100-150 range.  Good Lore teams require at least two elements to function properly anyway, and aren't particularly strong, so it pushes them in the right direction and gives them a bit more leeway to function correctly.

[The Damned]

(As I said before, take your time, FFMaster. I can't help you with ALMA and you'll need to double check my list, but I'll try to think up something to boost Feather Boots since I brought it up.)

By Odin's Beard, no.

Not only are instant death techniques that add Death--Lava Ball gets a pass because its terrain only appears on two maps--while doing less than 100% HP damage quite unfair, but if anything, it's Dia that needs "nerfed" rather than Death that needs to buffed; admittedly, I hate such techniques just like I dislike Shock techniques. Death perhaps still needs to be buffed a bit, especially if Odin is now doing damage and is basically a larger AoE yet much slower and expensive version (and thus "fairer" version) of what you're asking for. Emulating Dia is not the way to do it however since there's really no reason, at the very least, that Dia should be instant and immune to Silence now that it's on White Magic(k) rather than in Paladin's skill set; it should probably be more expensive too MP-wise.

Aside from that, Lore's JP cost also doesn't need to be lower IMO. Running into a team that can absorb your element is the price you pay for being able to attack and heal with an unavoidable attack that hits entire map and that can be repeated via Counter Magic(k), especially if you're only using one such element. What exactly are units with Lore spending their JP on that they can't sacrifice to afford to spend 200 more JP yet could spend 150 more JP?

Masamune was there because I was testing it before use ages back, and forgot to remove it from the skillset. I can't actually test the Draw Out skillset directly due to bugs, so I normally just add skills to the Squire skillset to test and then remove them.

Oh, I see. I had suspected as much, but I was still going under the impression that Draw Out did it's "wig out if not a skill with only other Draw Out spells" thing, so I just thought it was a straight-up error.

So noted.

The idea about giving Immune Oil is a good idea I think. And yes, maybe Feather Boots is slightly weaker than most of the other accessories.

Yay. I can actually have good ideas somewhere at least.

I think we can do something for Battle Boots/Red Shoes next version though.

I actually don't see much of a problem with either of those. Yeah, they could be "stronger" and Red Shoes is pretty much limited to Samurai as CT5Holy pointed out, but I'd still say they're more useful than something like Germinas Shoes or Sprint Shoes. I honestly can't remember anyone using Germinas Shoes or Sprint Shoes while I'm relatively sure that people have used both Battle Boots and Red Shoes.

How does merging Battle Boots and Red Shoes into one accessory that gives 1 Move, 1 PA, and 1 MA sound?  Unless the unit is a Geomancer or is sporting some novelty build, this new accessory is still only going to be used for one stat.  This will free up item space for something else, like Genji Armor, which currently does not have space of its own.

Even though I don't have a problem with Battle Boots and Red Shoes, I kinda like that suggestion.

...Too bad "we" can't get away with it because of those meddling Knives and their limited Item Attributes.

At present, Battle Boots and Red Shoes have to share their Item Attributes with Katar and Orichalcum respectively. So anything we do to or the other affects the knives and it seems rather unfair to screw over two items that just got buffed and have yet to be tested. So, really, if you trying to overhaul Battle Boots' and Red Shoes'  Item Attributes, then you're going to have simultaneously come up with new knives, even if they don't use the new Item Attributes that those accessories do.

Also, Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet need EV buffs.  They were left behind (as if they weren't behind already!) with the mantle buffs. How does the following sound until these things are overhauled entirely?

Power Wrist: 1 PA, 20 P-EV, 10 M-EV
Genji Gauntlet: 1 MA, 10 P-EV, 20 M-EV

This puts them in line with Vanish Mantle and Small Mantle, giving the player a choice between bonus damage and elemental immunity.

I'm pretty ambivalent to this though, if only because I don't think they need quite that much evasion since it's not like Vanish Mantle or Small Mantle are still seeing that much use with absorption trumps nullification.

(Or are those mantles seeing use? I basically can't watch videos on Youtube at this point for some reason and the Team Submission thread shifts around too much.)

Houkouton should be free considering Spin Fist is free and has better AoE and better damage potential. At best, they're roughly equal.

Uh...Spin Fist isn't "free", unless you're counting anything < 151 as "free" for some reason. If you instead mean that Houkouton should be 150 JP instead of 200 JP, then I could maybe see that. Houkouton isn't completely outclassed anyway because a) it can't evaded unlike Spin Fist and b) apparently Monk skills shouldn't be quadratic anymore anyway.