Discord Discussion - Version 1.4 Final Draft Spreadsheets

[Andrew]

Refer to the following link for a text-based version of the changes instead: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11345.0

spoiler: Legend and Miscellaneous

Anything in blue is a new value, and is considered to be a buff.
Anything in red is a new value, and is considered to be a nerf.
Anything in grey is an old value.  If paired with a blue or red value, then it's been replaced.
Anything that's been striked-out has been repurposed.


- Elemental skills will be more widespread, as maps that offer only one or two different Elemental skill panel types will be increased to 3+ Elemental skill panel types (I'm talkin' about you, snowy maps).

- "Old" Oil is being reintroduced; that is, Oil will have its function changed to doubling all elemental damage on the afflicted (will still expire after elemental damage is taken).

- Silence has been removed, and things were balanced accordingly.  It simply has no place in Arena.

- Speed alteration skills, such as Quickening or Slow Dance, have been either removed from the game, or had their Speed aleration properties changed.  Now, the only way to modify a unit's Speed value is by giving them equipment that does just that.

- The Jump skillset formula's CT calculation has been changed to: 21 / Jump.
3 Jump = 7 CT
4 Jump = 6 CT
5 Jump = 5 CT
6 Jump = 4 CT
7 Jump = 3 CT (the cap)

- The maps that are considered broken in some way are in the process of being tweaked.  Not all changes may be implemented for 1.4, but at least the starting position changes and minor edits will be.

- There are two new statuses: MP Poison and MP Regen.  These are their "WIP" names, and will most-likely be changed in the future.  Check-out the statuses spreadsheet for more information!

spoiler: Job Stats

spoiler: Skills

spoiler: Basic Skill

spoiler: Black Magic

spoiler: Chivalry

spoiler: Dance

spoiler: Draw Out

spoiler: Elemental

spoiler: Item

spoiler: Jump

spoiler: Lore

spoiler: Ninjutsu

spoiler: Punch Art

spoiler: Sing

spoiler: Snipe

spoiler: Steal

spoiler: Summon Magic

spoiler: Talk Skill

spoiler: Time Magic

spoiler: White Magic

spoiler: Yin Yang Magic

spoiler: Equipment

spoiler: Weapons

spoiler: Shields

spoiler: Armour

spoiler: Accessories

spoiler: Statuses

spoiler: All Elemental Attributes

spoiler: Elemental Skills and Weapons

Skill - Dark: (7) Dark Holy, Kotetsu, Shadow Shade, Bio 3, Meiton, Odin, Demi

Skill - Earth: (6) Kikuichimonji, Local Quake, Earth Dragon, Quake, Earth Slash, Titan

Skill - Fire: (7) Fire, Fire 2, Nether Fire, Asura, Demon Fire, Lava Ball, Ifrit

Skill - Ice: (6) Ice, Ice 2, Nether Ice, Blizzard, Rime Bolt, Shiva

Skill - Holy: (5) Bizen Boat, Aurablast, Cyclops, Dia, Holy

Skill - Lightning: (5) Bolt, Bolt 2, Nether Bolt, Thunder Flare, Ramuh

Skill - Water: (8) Water, Water 2, Nether Water, Quick Sand, Water Ball, Maelstrom, Suiton, Leviathan

Skill - Wind: (6) Heaven's Cloud, Gusty Wind, Kamaitachi, Tornado, Fuuton, Silf



Weapon - Dark (4): Sadist's Whip, Kotetsu Knife, Demon Spear, Black Staff

Weapon - Earth: (3) Giant Axe, Kikuichimonji, Koga Knife

Weapon - Fire: (4) Blaze Gun, Asura Knife, Flame Rod, Phoenix Blade

Weapon - Ice: (4) Glacier Gun, Ice Bow, Ice Rod, Ice Brand

Weapon - Holy: (5) Excalibur, Mage Masher, Silver Bow, Holy Lance, White Staff

Weapon - Lightning: (5) Blast Gun, Lightning Bow, Thunder Rod, Mace of Zeus, Thunder Blade

Weapon - Water: (4) Aspergillum, Rain Bow, Whale Whisker, Coral Sword

Weapon - Wind: (5) Spiked Futon, Heaven's Cloud, Air Knife, Windslash Bow, Iga Knife

spoiler: Equipment Properties

Strengthen - Dark: (5) Sadist's Whip, Kotetsu Knife, Prismatic Rod, Golden Hairpin, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Earth: (6) Giant Axe, Iga Knife, Prismatic Rod, Crystal Helmet, Earth Clothes, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Fire: (3) Flame Rod, Black Robe, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Holy: (5) Excalibur, Prismatic Rod, Golden Hairpin, Crystal Helmet, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Ice: (3) Ice Rod, Black Robe, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Lightning: (4) Thunder Rod, Mace of Zeus, Black Robe, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Water: (5) Giant Axe, Aspergillum, Prismatic Rod, Crystal Helmet, 108 Gems

Strengthen - Wind: (5) Giant Axe, Spiked Futon, Koga Knife, Prismatic Rod, 108 Gems



Absorb - Dark: (4) Diamond Shield, Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Absorb - Earth: (3) Mythril Shield, Earth Clothes, Diamond Armlet

Absorb - Fire: (4) Asura Knife, Fire Shield, Black Costume, Defense Armlet

Absorb - Holy: (3) Platina Shield, Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring

Absorb - Ice: (3) Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, Jade Armlet

Absorb - Lightning: (4) Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring

Absorb - Water: (4) Coral Sword, Dewdrop Shield, Rubber Costume, Chantage

Absorb - Wind: (3) Wyvern Shield, Santa Outfit, Sandstorm Treks



Null - Dark: (0)

Null - Earth: (2) Small Mantle, Feather Boots

Null - Fire: (0)

Null - Holy: (1) Dracula Mantle

Null - Ice: (0)

Null - Lightning: (0)

Null - Water: (1) Wizard Mantle

Null - Wind: (1) Vanish Mantle



Half - Dark: (1) Secular Shield

Half - Earth: (1) Flash Hat

Half - Fire: (1) White Robe

Half - Holy: (1) Secular Shield

Half - Ice: (1) White Robe

Half - Lightning: (1) White Robe

Half - Water: (1) Flash Hat

Half - Wind: (1) Flash Hat



Weak - Dark: (0)

Weak - Earth: (0)

Weak - Fire: (1) Cursed Ring

Weak - Holy: (0)

Weak - Ice: (0)

Weak - Lightning: (0)

Weak - Water: (0)

Weak - Wind: (0)

spoiler: All Status Attributes

spoiler: Skills

Add - Defending: (2) Defend, Nurse

Add - Float: (1) Mad Science

Add - Haste: (6) Yell, Masamune, Roulette, Quickening, Haste, Haste 2

Add - HP Regen: (5) Nurse, Masamune, Mad Science, Life Song, Regenerator

Add - MP Regen: (3) Yell, Life Song, Regenerator

Add - Protect: (4) Iron Will, Nameless Song, Protect, Wall

Add - Reraise: (5) Reraise, Dragon Spirit, Mad Science, Nameless Song, Roulette

Add - Shell: (4) Iron Will, Nameless Song, Shell, Wall

Add - Transparent: (0)

Add - Berserk: (4) Lava Ball, Salamander, Insult, Blind Rage

Add - Charm: (2) Steal Heart, Beguile

Add - Critical: (0)

Add - Darkness: (9) Grand Cross, Nameless Dance, Kiyomori, Blizzard, Sand Storm, Kagesougi, Cyclops, Dia, Blind

Add - Dead: (4) Death, Consecration, Roulette, Odin

Add - Death Sentence: (3) Muramasa, Secret Fist, Death Sentence

Add - Don't Act: (6) Kamitachi, Kagesougi, Arm Aim, Silf, Blackmail, Paralyze

Add - Don't Move: (7) Bolt, Nameless Dance, Carve Model, Kagesougi, Leg Aim, Silf, Don't Move

Add - Frog: (3) Frog, Water Ball, Roulette

Add - HP Poison: (6) Poison, Wiznaibus, Kiyomori, Kagesougi, Shuriken, Hawk's Eye

Add - MP Poison: (2) Bio, Zodiac

Add - Oil: (3) Nameless Dance, Demon Fire, Bio 2

Add - Petrify: (4) Local Quake, Seal Evil, Roulette, Petrify

Add - Sleep: (3) Gusty Wind, Mimic Daravon, Sleep

Add - Slow: (6) Ice, Nameless Dance, Pitfall, Speed Ruin, Slow, Slow 2

Add - Stop: (4) Hell Ivy, Leg Aim, Stall, Stop

Add - Undead: (3) Quicksand, Bio 3, Zombie

Add - Charging: (0)

Add - Crystal: (0)

Add - Faith: (3) Preach, Piety, Pray Faith

Add - Innocent: (3) Heretic, Solution, Doubt Faith

Add - Jump: (0)

Add - Performing: (0)

Add - Reflect: (2) Nameless Song, Warn



Cancel - Defending: (4) Water, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Float: (4) Water, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Haste: (7) Bullrush, Water, Tsumazuku, Spellbreaker, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - HP Regen: (6) Water, Tsumazuku, Spellbreaker, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - MP Regen: (4) Water, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Protect: (5) Water, Spellbreaker, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Reraise: (5) Water, Spellbreaker, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Shell: (5) Water, Spellbreaker, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Transparent: (4) Water, Leviathan, Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Berserk: (3) Heal, Echo Grass, Refute

Cancel - Charm: (4) Heal, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Critical: (0)

Cancel - Darkness: (6) Heal, Antidote, Misogi, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Dead: (7) Wish, Lay on Hands, Phoenix Down, Revive, Fairy, Raise, Raise 2

Cancel - Death Sentence: (1) Refute

Cancel - Don't Act: (4) Bandage, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Don't Move: (5) Bandage, Misogi, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Frog: (4) Maiden's Kiss, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - HP Poison: (6) Heal, Antidote, Misogi, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - MP Poison: (3) Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Oil: (3) Heal, Holy Water, Refute

Cancel - Petrify: (4) Soft, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Sleep: (4) Maiden's Kiss, Stigma Magic, Esuna, Refute

Cancel - Slow: (2) Misogi, Refute

Cancel - Stop: (3) Heal, Chrono's Tear, Refute

Cancel - Undead: (2) Holy Water, Refute

Cancel - Charging: (2) Throw Stone, Sinkhole

Cancel - Crystal: (0)

Cancel - Faith: (1) Refute

Cancel - Innocent: (2) Refute, Dispel Magic

Cancel - Jump: (0)

Cancel - Performing: (2) Throw Stone, Sinkhole

Cancel - Reflect: (1) Refute

spoiler: Equipment

Add - Defending: (0)

Add - Float: (0)

Add - Haste: (1) Repel Knife

Add - HP Regen: (0)

Add - MP Regen: (0)

Add - Protect: (0)

Add - Reraise: (0)

Add - Shell: (0)

Add - Transparent: (0)

Add - Berserk: (1) Provoke Bow

Add - Charm: (1) Fairy Harp

Add - Critical: (0)

Add - Darkness: (1) Night Killer

Add - Dead: (0)

Add - Death Sentence: (1) Throwing Knife

Add - Don't Act: (2) Repel Knife, Lightning Bow

Add - Don't Move: (2) Ninja Edge, Javelin

Add - Frog: (1) Octagon Rod

Add - HP Poison: (2) Scorpion Tail, Poison Rod

Add - MP Poison: (1) Poison Bow

Add - Oil: (2) Crude Bow, Short Edge

Add - Petrify: (1) Ancient Sword

Add - Sleep: (2) Air Knife, Sleep Sword

Add - Slow: (2) Heaven's Cloud, Gladius

Add - Stop: (2) Madlemgen, Ice Bow

Add - Undead: (2) Necronomicon, Whale Whisker

Add - Charging: (0)

Add - Crystal: (0)

Add - Faith: (1) Spell Edge

Add - Innocent: (2) Atheist Bow, Gokuu Rod

Add - Jump: (0)

Add - Performing: (0)

Add - Reflect: (0)



Immune - Defending: (0)

Immune - Float: (0)

Immune - Haste: (0)

Immune - HP Regen: (1) Hyper Wrist

Immune - MP Regen: (0)

Immune - Protect: (0)

Immune - Reraise: (0)

Immune - Shell: (0)

Immune - Transparent: (0)

Immune - Berserk: (6) Murasame, Platinum Sword, Choice Band, Diamond Armor, Defense Ring, Reflect Ring

Immune - Charm: (4) Chakra Band, Crystal Armor, Magic Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Immune - Critical: (0)

Immune - Darkness: (3) Chakra Band, Gold Helmet, Angel Ring

Immune - Dead: (5) Genji Shield, Choice Band, Gold Armor, Chameleon Robe, Angel Ring

Immune - Death Sentence: (6) Genji Shield, Choice Band, Gold Armor, Chameleon Robe, Angel Ring, Cursed Ring

Immune - Don't Act: (5) Defender, Chakra Band, Diamond Helmet, Wizard Mantle, Defense Armlet

Immune - Don't Move: (4) Battle Rod, Diamond Armor, Feather Boots, Defense Armlet

Immune - Frog: (4) Chakra Band, Gold Helmet, Small Mantle, Jade Armlet

Immune - HP Poison: (6) P Bag, Platina Helmet, Diamond Armor, Light Robe, Vanish Mantle, 108 Gems

Immune - MP Poison: (2) Cross Helmet, 108 Gems

Immune - Oil: (5) Rainbow Staff, Platina Helmet, Gold Armor, Dracula Mantle, Diamond Armlet

Immune - Petrify: (2) Gold Armor, Jade Armlet

Immune - Sleep: (4) Choice Band, Gold Helmet, Sandstorm Treks, Defense Ring

Immune - Slow: (5) Masamune, Chakra Band, Crystal Armor, Sprint Shoes, Diamond Armlet

Immune - Stop: (4) Chakra Band, Platina Helmet, Jade Armlet, Chantage

Immune - Undead: (3) Chakra Band, Crystal Armor, Chantage

Immune - Charging: (0)

Immune - Crystal: (1) Cursed Ring

Immune - Faith: (2) Secular Shield, Mythril Helmet

Immune - Innocent: (2) Secular Shield, Triangle Hat

Immune - Jump: (0)

Immune - Performing: (0)

Immune - Reflect: (0)



Always - Defending: (0)

Always - Float: (0)

Always - Haste: (1) Masamune

Always - HP Regen: (2) P Bag, Light Robe

Always - MP Regen: (1) Rune Blade

Always - Protect: (3) Save the Queen, Iron Boots, Cherche

Always - Reraise: (0)

Always - Shell: (3) Ragnarok, Iron Boots, Setiemson

Always - Transparent: (1) Hidden Knife

Always - Berserk: (1) Salty Rage

Always - Charm: (0)

Always - Critical: (0)

Always - Darkness: (0)

Always - Dead: (0)

Always - Death Sentence: (0)

Always - Don't Act: (0)

Always - Don't Move: (1) Iron Boots

Always - Frog: (0)

Always - HP Poison: (1) Hyper Wrist

Always - MP Poison: (0)

Always - Oil: (0)

Always - Petrify: (0)

Always - Sleep: (0)

Always - Slow: (0)

Always - Stop: (0)

Always - Undead: (1) Cursed Ring

Always - Charging: (0)

Always - Crystal: (0)

Always - Faith: (0)

Always - Innocent: (0)

Always - Jump: (0)

Always - Performing: (0)

Always - Reflect: (1) Reflect Ring



Initial - Defending: (0)

Initial - Float: (1) Diamond Helmet

Initial - Haste: (0)

Initial - HP Regen: (0)

Initial - MP Regen: (0)

Initial - Protect: (1) Cashmere

Initial - Reraise: (4) Phoenix Blade, Diamond Helmet, Angel Ring, Chantage

Initial - Shell: (1) Cashmere

Initial - Transparent: (0)

Initial - Berserk: (1) Chirijiraden

Initial - Charm: (0)

Initial - Critical: (0)

Initial - Darkness: (0)

Initial - Dead: (0)

Initial - Death Sentence: (0)

Initial - Don't Act: (0)

Initial - Don't Move: (0)

Initial - Frog: (0)

Initial - HP Poison: (0)

Initial - MP Poison: (0)

Initial - Oil: (0)

Initial - Petrify: (0)

Initial - Sleep: (0)

Initial - Slow: (0)

Initial - Stop: (0)

Initial - Undead: (0)

Initial - Charging: (0)

Initial - Crystal: (0)

Initial - Faith: (1) Faith Rod

Initial - Innocent: (0)

Initial - Jump: (0)

Initial - Performing: (0)

Initial - Reflect: (3) Ryozan Silk, Crystal Shield, Reflect Mail

[Gaignun]

I missed out on Discord discussions, so I am out of the loop.  May I ask a few questions?

First just some general questions:

Priests with 4 Move: What is the reason behind this proposal?  Are we transitioning priests into a melee role?
Black Magick Fire: Why is Oil being removed?
Books: What role are we redesigning this weapon type into?  It seems only Summoners, the proverbial glass cannon, can use books now.
Silence: Why is Silence being nuked?

Next, a few comments:

Summon nerfs: I am of the belief that it's not Ramuh, Shiva, Ifrit, and Silf that are overpowered, but all the other summons that are underpowered.
Quake and Tornado nerfs: Compared to Black Magick Fire, these nerfed spells cost more MP and JP, yet are no more powerful.
Melt: This will murder casters without caution and M-EV.  It's Bizen Boat with 4 range, or Sinkhole that shuts down casters permanently (or until they somehow restore their MP).

Now for some small suggestions.

Bags: Make them 0 WP to give players an opportunity to disable units' physical attacks.
Wish and Revive: Increase the constant from 70 to 80.  These abilities are bad.
Fairy: Increase AoE from 1 to 2 instead of increasing the constant from 75 to 85.  Increasing the constant does not make Fairy any more useful in my opinion.
Lay on Hands: Increase range from 1 to 2?
Maintenance: Make this a reaction or movement ability
Battle Boots and Red Shoes: Merge into a single accessory that provides +1 PA, +1 MA, and +1 Move.
Germinas Boots: Add +2 Jump to give Lancers an additional way to increase their jump speed.

And finally, some name ideas:

Secular Shield: Hallowed Shield
Provoke Bow: Bacchus Bow
MP Poison: Sap (easier to say)
MP Regen: Refresh (easier to say, and sounds similar to Regen)

[Barren]

Some of these questions and comments you brought up was because stuff like quake and tornado to a lot of people is too strong. If you want to tonight if you are free at some point we'll set up a discord discussion with Andrew and silentkaster and we'll see if any last minute changes should be made.

One thing about silence though is that everyone in the discussion agreed that silence was just overall useless and there are far better ways to shut down casters or support units. Berserk being the best answer. But yea if you want to meet up with us please feel free to join us

[silentkaster]

Will try to answer these questions briefly in case you can't make a meeting.

I missed out on Discord discussions, so I am out of the loop.  May I ask a few questions?

First just some general questions:

Priests with 4 Move: What is the reason behind this proposal?  Are we transitioning priests into a melee role?
Black Magick Fire: Why is Oil being removed?
Books: What role are we redesigning this weapon type into?  It seems only Summoners, the proverbial glass cannon, can use books now.
Silence: Why is Silence being nuked?

1. To support their roles better and yes, because they can use flails. Priests have little to offer to use as a primary in most cases.

2. Because it is the only T1 spell to have AOE of two in Black magic. Also, Oil is returning to its old form as well as gaining weakness to Holy and Dark so having a 50% Oil AOE proc for Fire's low cost seems a bit much.

3. This is correct. While Summon Magic is a good skillset, Summoners themselves are unfortunately a bit underwhelming with their low HP and other lackluster stats. This gives them something to use Summoners for since the books are fairly decent weapons by themselves and are changing to MA * WP as the formula.

4. It is currently protected against by most mages and has very little to offer in terms of a status. Generally, Berserk or other status will give better, more reliable results.

Next, a few comments:

Summon nerfs: I am of the belief that it's not Ramuh, Shiva, Ifrit, and Silf that are overpowered, but all the other summons that are underpowered.
Quake and Tornado nerfs: Compared to Black Magick Fire, these nerfed spells cost more MP and JP, yet are no more powerful.
Melt: This will murder casters without caution and M-EV.  It's Bizen Boat with 4 range, or Sinkhole that shuts down casters permanently (or until they somehow restore their MP).

1. I agree with you (and would include Silf in there too) but it's pretty hard to balance the other Summons without giving you some reason to go for them. Even doing something like increasing procs or MA multipliers would still make them a bit lackluster and the more reliable summons would still be unevadable and able to do 200+ damage with strengthen and 15 MA. I agreed to this mostly because even at their current forms, they are still viable options and the other Summons, with some being buffed, look good too. It's a middle ground.

2. Will be taking another look at them most likely. This was one of the more debated topics on what to do with these spells.

3. I actually have to disagree with you on this one. Now you can actually use a reaction (Absorb MP) to counter whereas you could not with Bizen Boat. In fact, it makes this reaction more useful. Bizen Boat's problem was that it didn't cost MP and a caster couldn't finish their spell and would have to waste two or more turns getting back to where they were. This has less AOE, but can actually now be countered by using Absorb MP. It's also slightly less powerful than meta Bizen Boat which was the other factor discussed when making this change.

Now for some small suggestions.

Bags: Make them 0 WP to give players an opportunity to disable units' physical attacks.
Wish and Revive: Increase the constant from 70 to 80.  These abilities are bad.
Fairy: Increase AoE from 1 to 2 instead of increasing the constant from 75 to 85.  Increasing the constant does not make Fairy any more useful in my opinion.
Lay on Hands: Increase range from 1 to 2?
Maintenance: Make this a reaction or movement ability
Battle Boots and Red Shoes: Merge into a single accessory that provides +1 PA, +1 MA, and +1 Move.
Germinas Boots: Add +2 Jump to give Lancers an additional way to increase their jump speed.

1. I had mentioned before I wouldn't mind seeing a 0 WP weapon, but I don't think it should be a bag. It seems like too unique of an idea to just put on a bag. One of the cool things about bags right now is that it gives you an opportunity to raise stats or free regen, but the downside is when your unit uses it, it's not very impactful most of the time. To me, this is fair. When your AI decides to go for a bag whack, you've now seen the downside of equipping the bag for that "free" stat. I think most people accepted that argument. Do you agree or do you think that there should still be a 0 WP bag?

2. Eh, could probably go for 75%. They're kinda "there" and easy to use for a revival ability. They don't (and I believe shouldn't) need to be good because it's revival and simply having them is good. I like the idea of these missing. But that's just me. Don't think their percentages were discussed.

3. Why not? The problem here is that Fairy is pretty inaccurate for such a JP/MP expensive skill. It has that small change to resurrect a couple or even all three units but more often than not, the AI goes for one unit. I think it would be a bit much to be "mass resurrecting" a bunch of units, even if they're all at 1/3 HP. To me, that's really taking away from AOE skills since rarely can those one shot (and most are evadable.) I like increasing the accuracy though, because it becomes much more reliable, especially on low faith units.

4. Didn't look too closely at this skill until now. There will probably be more discussion on it since it was a recent addition. But my personal suggestion is to leave it 1 range, make it random HP cancel dead. But we can look at yours too.

5. I agreed with you on Maintenance being a movement ability but was outvoted

6. In reference to the last two issues, I'll combine. Wouldn't mind seeing them merge personally, but think the Jump+2 would be better on the one to be removed (so merge the one type of shoes and give the Jump+2 attribute to the one being left out.) I don't like the idea of a lancer being able to reach virtually across the map doing 2CT jumps on the first turn (which would be possible with a +2 Move + 2 Jump Accessory.)

[/Quote]

And finally, some name ideas:

Secular Shield: Hallowed Shield
Provoke Bow: Bacchus Bow
MP Poison: Sap (easier to say)
MP Regen: Refresh (easier to say, and sounds similar to Regen)

The first two names I find fine. Second two names I think were because they are brand new and it was easy to name them what they are in order to not confuse new players. (But I'm not too picky so they sound find to me.)

[Andrew]

Heya, Gaignun!  Here's some answers to your questions:


"Priests with 4 Move: What is the reason behind this proposal?  Are we transitioning priests into a melee role?"
1) Priests have more well-rounded stats, which makes them better support mages, rather than damage or speedy mages.  Having 4 base Move will allow for them to fill this role more reliably, as they would be able to get into range to help-out their teammates more regularly than before.
2) Since they have access to flails, 4 base Move may encourage more meleeing priests, as you've already mentioned.

"Black Magick Fire: Why is Oil being removed?"
1) Since old Oil is being reintroduced, Fire may combo too well with itself, which is why we removed it from Hawk's Eye (since its weapon-elemental)
2) With Hawk's Eye losing its Oil proc, Short Edge being reduced to 50%, and a new crossbow only having a 20% chance to apply Oil, Fire (even with a nerfed proc chance of 15-20%) would be the go-to way to spread Oil; and, like mentioned above, would combo too well with itself.

"Books: What role are we redesigning this weapon type into?  It seems only Summoners, the proverbial glass cannon, can use books now."
1) The books damage formula will be changing to MA*WP, and were balanced accordingly.  In the past, books were mostly overlooked due to their awkward reliance on both PA and MA, and usually the jobs that had access to them had better weapon options.
2) Correct, the only job that has innate access to books will be summoner.  This, and the introduction of MP Switch, are both intended to make summoner a more appealing primary job.

"Silence: Why is Silence being nuked?"
1) It's an extreme: It's either very effective against a unit (shuts down ENTIRE skillsets), or completely useless against a unit (physical units).
2) It's a watered-down version of Berserk, a status that does what Silence does, and then some.
3) It's absolutely essential for mages to protect against it, so they already do anyway, leaving them vulnerable to Berserk (usually) in the process.

"Summon nerfs: I am of the belief that it's not Ramuh, Shiva, Ifrit, and Silf that are overpowered, but all the other summons that are underpowered."
1) The low-tier, unavoidable summons were considered to be too good: they function like Elemental in the way that they're great anti-sandbag due to them being fast and unavoidable, except they are only reliant on MA, making them easier to build for,
2) The higher-tier summons are being overlooked because of how good the low-tier summons are.  They really aren't bad in comparison, especially with the changes to Bahamut and Zodiac.

"Quake and Tornado nerfs: Compared to Black Magick Fire, these nerfed spells cost more MP and JP, yet are no more powerful."
1) They were too good for elemental absorb, due to being fast, having a large AoE, dealing respectable damage, and being non-reflectable.  Quake was lowered to 3 CT due to how easy it is to setup Earth absorb in the first place (I'm talkin' about you, Earth Slash and Kiku).

"Melt: This will murder casters without caution and M-EV.  It's Bizen Boat with 4 range, or Sinkhole that shuts down casters permanently (or until they somehow restore their MP)."
1) I do agree that it has too much range.  Due to you bringing this up, we've ended-up talking in Discord about nerfing its range to 3.
2) Unlike Bizen Boat, it costs MP, and only has a 1 AoE radius, unlike Bizen Boat's 2 AoE.  Plus, since it costs MP, Abosrb MP can be a way to counter it.  Not to mention that since it has less of an AoE radius, it will backfire less on your own team.

"Bags: Make them 0 WP to give players an opportunity to disable units' physical attacks."
1) We originally had a bag with 0 WP to "cure" Charm and Sleep for free, but decided that the low amount of random damage that the bag would afflict typically wouldn't be an issue, and the mass majority of units that would be stacking PA wouldn't be using bags.
2) It would be interesting to have a bag that has 0 WP and that's it (with the intent to disable the unit's ability to Attack).

"Wish and Revive: Increase the constant from 70 to 80.  These abilities are bad."
1) I feel that Wish is fine, considering it's a part of Basic Skill, a skillset that can do a little bit of everything.  Not to mention that it's instant, has a 3-panel range, 3 vertical range, and costs no MP.
2) We've debated about Revive receiving an accuracy increase, but settled upon JP instead.  If anything, I feel that it could receive both an accuracy increase AND a JP decease, since it has such a poor range anyway.

"Fairy: Increase AoE from 1 to 2 instead of increasing the constant from 75 to 85.  Increasing the constant does not make Fairy any more useful in my opinion."
1) I fully agree with you on this one, since Fairy's gimmick is that it's the only source of AoE revival in the game, and 1 AoE is definitely not doing it justice (since it's uncommon for units to die beside one another, especially on non-small maps).  I would be fine with it going up to 2 AoE and staying at Hit_F(MA+75)% accuracy.

"Lay on Hands: Increase range from 1 to 2?"
1) I would be fine with such a range increase.  We were talking earlier about this question of yours and somebody suggested for it to instead heal a random amount between 1% and 100%.  I would be fine with either of these, but not both.

"Maintenance: Make this a reaction or movement ability"
1) This was bought-up by silentkaster in the past and was shot down.  But, now that 1.4 is a bit more fleshed-out, I can see it being moved to Movement at least, with costing 200 JP.  This may end-up being a thing!

"Battle Boots and Red Shoes: Merge into a single accessory that provides +1 PA, +1 MA, and +1 Move."
1) In comparison to the Bracer and Magic Gauntlet, I feel that exchanging 1 PA/MA for 1 Move is already a great swap, especially if you only need 1 PA or 1 MA to meet that damage multiplier "threshold".  I would only consider merging them if we needed the extra accessory slot for something new.

"Germinas Boots: Add +2 Jump to give Lancers an additional way to increase their jump speed."
1) Yeeeaaaahh, sure, why not?  It would just be the Feather Boots with one more Move and Jump, but no always Float and Don't Move immunity.  Since the "cap" for Jump CT would be 7 Jump anyway, this would allow for the Lancer to be more flexible with its gear choices.

"Secular Shield: Hallowed Shield"
1) Secular Shield makes more sense since you're reducing the effectiveness of Dark and Holy, which can both be seen as "religious" in nature in the world of FFT.

"Provoke Bow: Bacchus Bow"
1) I'm fine with either name.

"MP Poison: Sap (easier to say)" / "MP Regen: Refresh (easier to say, and sounds similar to Regen)"
1) There's a good chance that they will have their names changed for the release for 1.4, so you can see MP Poison and MP Regen as their "work in progress" names.  They could very well be changed to these names!


Thank you for taking the time to look over what we've come-up with, Gaignun!

[Gaignun]

Thank you for your responses, everyone.

0 WP Bags
A long time ago I attempted to pair a Mediator with "Solution" (which adds Innocent) and a Ninja with UnFaith spells.  Instead of using Solution, the Mediator always used melee attacks.  This spurred me to propose 0 WP weapons.  The 0 WP bag is not intended for free charm/sleep breaking, but for coercing the AI into using difficult skills.  I would like to give all job classes the ability to use these difficult skills, so I think bags are most appropriate as 0 WP weapons.

If we want to penalize players for equipping bags, I would suggest making the bags heal on hit.  That way, bags cannot be used to break charm and sleep, nor counter Phoenix Down revival.  However, as they currently are, bags only invite the AI to agonizingly waste turns.

Wish and Revive
I could settle for only Revive getting an accuracy buff.

Fairy
@silentkaster: Even with an accuracy buff, Fairy would still be an expensive Phoenix Down, as it is rarely used to resurrect more than one party member on all but the smallest maps.  By increasing Fairy's AoE to 2, Fairy can better fulfill its unique role of resurrecting multiple units.  If a straight AoE buff is too good, I wouldn't mind dropping the heal amount from 33% to 20~25% in compensation.

Lay on Hands
I suggested additional range because the skill belongs to a 3 Move, 8 SP unit.  It will be difficult to use without +Move items or abilities.

Battle Boots and Red Shoes
I compare these accessories to Diamond Armlet: The opportunity cost of +1 Move is +1 PA/MA, Earth absorption, and Slow and Oil immunity.  I think that this cost is too high.  An accessory that merges Battle Boots and Red Shoes would still retain the Earth absorption and status immunity costs.  Only Geomancers can effectively utilize both PA and MA at the same time, so this is a pretty modest buff.

[Andrew]

@Gaignun:

First of all, I want to apologize for the lack of information about us reincorporating old Oil, and the error I made in my speadsheet in regards to Oil.  I understand why you were confused about the Fire 1 nerf.

Second of all, your questions and insight in your first post inspired us to incorporate the following proposals:
- Chakra Band: 35 HP; 0 MP; -1 Speed; Immune: Charm, Darkness, Don't Act, Frog, Slow, Stop, and Undead
- Germinas Boots: Gaining 2 Jump
- Lay on Hands:  2 range
- Maintenance: Becomes a Movement skill, 200 JP cost
- Melt: 3 Range
- Revive: Hit_(PA+75)%
~ NEW --> "Toy Knife": 0 WP, 0% W-Ev, +1 Move, 100% cancel: Faith and Innocent; yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords

0 WP bags that heal:
I suppose that the bags can be seen as a "universal advantage", so I would be okay with this.  If there are enough people online today, I'll mention it.

Fairy and AoE:
I was in favour of this during our discussion, but most people leaned towards it simply receiving an accuracy boost.  If it received an AoE buff, I would be fine with it only healing 20%, just like you.  If people are online, I'll mention this.
EDIT: We decided upon 1 AoE, Hit_F(MA+(90)% and 150 JP cost.

Lay on Hands:
Definitely, 100%!
EDIT: Due to complications, UnFaith could not be used for this.  Instead, we changed it to UnFury.

Battle Boots and Red Shoes:
Ah, yes, I see your angle now.  Like previously mentioned, I'll bring this up if there are enough people online today.
EDIT: We decided that Bracer and Magic Gauntlet could instead receive a buff, and they were given 10% towards their respective Ev.
EDIT 2: "Combat Boots": 1 PA, 1 MA, 1 Move.    Also, new accessory due to more space: "Bangle": 2 Speed, Always: HP Poison - Immune: HP Regen

[Elmdork]

I'm pretty cool with most proposed changes. Don't like the books being summoner only, books are a great versatile weapon, and encouraging summoners to use basic attacks kind of goes against their job. Surprised we went with samurai getting bows over spears, i still figure why not both, but i'm looking forward to some of the most interesting archer builds ever. I also propose we call "Sap" "Virus", though i'm not overly impressed by mp poison as a whole. just not strong enough imo, but maybe i'll be wrong.

You guys did an amazing job putting this together, Thank you so much! 1.4 will be our best yet.

[Andrew]

Heya, Rouroni, thank you for taking the time to check-out the 1.4 proposals, and for your feedback.  As for the things you aren't too fond of, here's some reasons as to why they made it to the final draft:


"Don't like books being summoner only, ..."
1) A tanky MP Switch summoner utilizing books for regular attacks could actually be a thing!  The goal was to make summoners more versatile and interesting, and we're hoping that restricting books to them and introducing a balanced MP Switch will be enough kindle for a creative bonfire to get blazin'.
2) The jobs that lost access to books usually had some other weapon choice that proved to be more useful for the build that the player was going for.  Simply put, books were often overlooked.  Mind you, with their formula becoming MA*WP, this may have not ended-up being the case, but see 1).
3) Books can still be accessed through Equip Magegear, which now offers robes, as well.  Due to their overall buff, and Equip Magegear gaining Robes, players may actually consider using Equip Magegear for non-ninja units, and with books in mind!  We were aiming for all Equip X support skills to be considered "useful".

"Surprised we went with samurai getting bows over spears, ..."
The reworking of katana, and making them exclusive to samurai, made them gaining spears a bit excessive, since all katana can now be considered useful.  Besides, Jump IS the lancer's primary skillset, which is as plain-Jane as a skillset can get, and granting samurai access to spears would take away one of the lancer's few advantages over other jobs: spears receiving bonus damage with Jump.

"though i'm not overly impressed by mp poison as a whole. ..."
Unfortunately, MP Poison's low damage is due to the restrictions we're facing with implementing a new status.  It'll be occupying a status slot that doesn't allow for us to assign CT, which means that it'll stay on its target until they die.  Since its duration is infinite, we figured that it shouldn't be that potent, and could only choose from values like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8/, 1/16, et cetera.  We decided upon 1/16 since 1/8 would be *way* too powerful due to MP Poison's 0 CT.  Who knows: we may find a way around this in the future, and/or come-up with a creative solution to make it more appealing.


The final discussion on the 24th will decide what makes it, and what doesn't, to 1.4.  So, for all we know, books may not end-up being summoner-only, MP Poison may be scrapped/improved somehow, et cetera.  We're all looking forward to a new Arena to play around with! 

[Epic]

"A tanky MP Switch summoner utilizing books for regular attacks could actually be a thing!"

Except that speed and movement is everything for berserkers, and book shots can be evaded, so...

"Besides, Jump IS the lancer's primary skillset"

Yes, and Masamune is Samurai's primary skillset. Giving them a bow is like giving Archers heavy armor AND Masamune. Greatest idea ever.

"We decided upon 1/16 since 1/8 would be *way* too powerful"

Too powerful for what? Summons and Lore?

[silentkaster]

Except that speed and movement is everything for berserkers, and book shots can be evaded, so...

I'm not sure what you mean. Book shots combined with Berserk is a bad idea for the same reasons that guns combined with berserk is generally not a good idea. They'll try to shoot through allies and obstacles rendering them anti-productive to their team. The goal here isn't to make a berserker summoner. It's to combine a weapon that procs status and abilities with a class that has the highest MP pool and can now make use of said weapons if they choose.

Yes, and Masamune is Samurai's primary skillset. Giving them a bow is like giving Archers heavy armor AND Masamune. Greatest idea ever.

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but I'll answer objectively. Masamune is not their primary skillset, it's Draw Out. Yes, Masamune is a good ability within that skill set. However, Bows actually make using a Samurai tricky and could make you use them for different purposes. The Samurai's skillset requires that they be close to the enemy to use effectively for all of the offensive skills and Bows make sure they stay back. This makes the Samurai class itself a bit more versatile as using a Samurai before was a bit tough for much other than offense due to their low speed and inability to Equip Shields. Also, the Archer's skill set far outshines Samurai skillset when using ranged weapons effectively. Finally, a Samurai, no matter what you do, can never optimize a bow as well as an Archer. An Archer has higher base stats to start with for the bows as well as access to clothing which allows Archers to optimize offense with speed or PA whereas Samurais can only optimize speed (which pretty much negates their access to Armor should they choose to go that route.)

Too powerful for what? Summons and Lore?

Again, MP Poison would be a permanent status until cured. We aren't for sure how the AI will react to units having MP Poison or how MP Poison will affect spell casters (for example, will Spell Casters charge a spell they have enough MP for at the start of the turn before MP Poison kicks in and then after it hurts them, not have enough and effectively waste their turn?). We're starting with 1/16 to introduce the status and if the AI reacts fairly favorably in most situations, will make adjustments.

The final discussion on the 24th will decide what makes it, and what doesn't, to 1.4.  So, for all we know, books may not end-up being summoner-only, MP Poison may be scrapped/improved somehow, et cetera.  We're all looking forward to a new Arena to play around with! 

Actually, stuff like you're mentioning Andrew should definitely be worked out before final discussion. Those are kinda "big" issues (as opposed to small issues like, X Armor should gain 5 HP or Y Accessory should absorb Fire, not Wind). If we want to revisit those issues again, I suggest it be today or tomorrow before closing changes on the draft.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the swift response to Epic, silentkaster, you've said everything I would have, and then some.  As for what I said about the final discussion: whether we like it or not, a lot more is going to be determined on that day than you think.  I won't be bringing up anything big, but don't be surprised if some people do, especially those that are new to the Discord discussion scene.  It's inevitable.  For all we know, somebody may pop in and propose an excellent idea that we may want to implement, or could have a solid, well-thought-out argument for why something shouldn't/should be changed.  Many members of the community haven't been to a single Discord discussion, this is true, but this doesn't exclude the aforementioned possibilities. 

As for books being summoner-only, I'm fine with it, but MP Poison?  If its damage could be changed to, say, even 1/12, then I would be all for it!  However, if it's not possible, then I'm completely fine with the way that the status currently functions.

[Gaignun]

Sorry my responses are late.  Life is hectic lately.

Lay on Hands
Is it at all possible to use a formula other than Faith or UnFury?  I was hoping Lay on Hands would become the first solid resurrection ability for high-Fury teams.

Combat Boots and Bangle
Cool beans.  I am in support of both accessories.  Could we rename Bangle to something that reflects its sinister nature of permanently adding Poison?  Something that captures the spirit of "A star that burns twice as bright (or here, fast) lives half as long."

Summoners and books
I stand with Rouroni on this.  I view Summoner as the sister of Wizard: A proverbial glass cannon that trades a little damage for a little more AoE.  Their tiny HP pool makes them ill-suited for front-line skirmishes.  Furthermore, with their gigantic MP pool, they are the class least likely to consume all of their MP and fall back on melee attacks.  Lastly, upon consideration of the AI's tendency to favour the attacks with the highest damage, I fear that the only way to coax the AI into using books constantly and effectively is to eschew the summoner's entire primary skillset.  I understand the urge to buff Summoners in some way, but nevertheless I would rather designate a tank mage (which doesn't look like it will appear in 1.40) as the committed book user.

At any rate, the librarian summoner is a concept that will require some field testing.

MP Poison
I also share Rouroni's misgivings about this status effect, especially after hearing that it will be a 0 CT status effect.  I think we should ask ourselves about the outright need for such a status effect before moving forward.

A long time ago, I proposed MP Regen for FFT Arena as an additional method for restoring MP.  Up until now, the only reliable way of replenishing MP was Move-MP UP.  A bag that adds MP regen would finally free up the Movement ability slot of committed spellcasters.  As a side benefit, adding MP regen to the skill "Regen" or the reaction "Regenerator" would significantly buff these much maligned abilities.  Conversely, I have not seen a similar argument for MP poison.  Admittedly, I have not attended any Discord discussions.  Have arguments for MP poison been raised on Discord?

[Andrew]

Heya, Gaignun, some responses to your questions and what-not:

"Lay on Hands"
For now, we will be sticking with UnFury, since dw6561 already wrote the ASM for it.  Besides, an UnFury resurrection skill is something different from the usual.  I understand what you're saying, and for all I know it may be changed in the future.  Quite the experimental skill.

"Combat Boots and Bangle"
Glad you like them, Gaingun.  We were just talking about the Bangle and decided to go with "Hyper Wrist".  I'll update the information accordingly.

"Summoners and Books"
Just as a Monk/other job may only use Punch Art for Chakra, Revive, and Stigma Magic, a librarian Summoner may only use Summon Magic for Carbuncle, Fairy and Moogle, and focus on book shots and a secondary skillset.  We are still okay with the idea of Summoners having exclusive access to books, but like you said, it'll definitely need some testing.  Once we have the "final discussion" on Friday, we'll begin such testing soon after.

"MP Poison"
WKW brought up an interesting point earlier in Discord: "I see it like vanilla Poison. It's just there and you shrug it off but in the long run it can hurt".  Myself and others feel similarly about the current MP Poison, but once we begin testing, you never know what may happen.

[dw6561]

About MP Poison:
I was oringinally the one to say that we might want it to balance out MP Regen. Then, I had a period of time where I regretted it profusely, but I was reassured that it would work out and that speculation only goes so far. I'm still a bit wonky on the idea.

It doesn't really balance out MP Regen like I thought it would due to the 0 CT and consequential 1/16 nerf. Also, we have a lot of ways to add MP Poison but only 4 ways to add MP Regen, and MP Regen is really the only way to remove it. I feel that overall the implementation was kind of careless, and that our hype for something new might have made us gravitate towards it in the first place. But we'll see what it's like once the patch comes out, and if it turns out to be a spectacular fail then we can take steps to fix it.

[Gaignun]

Thanks for the quick responses Andrew and dw6561.

If the AI somehow reliably heals MP poison, then I suppose it could work.  Otherwise, MP poison might become Silence 2.0: You either block it with equipment or you die a slow death.  In the worst case, we could fall back on Carbuncle and Spell Absorb, since we're removing the MP cost of those two skills.

If the AI misbehaves with MP poison (e.g., It charges a spell, loses 1/16 MP, then has insufficient MP to cast the spell), we could alternatively make the ailment increase the MP cost of spells by 1/8~1/4 or so.  That way, the ailment would still weaken spellcasters, but the AI would function as intended.

[Kurosabes]

Ok I had a long thing written down about books, somehow it deleted itself... anyway, I'll try to make it brief

I don't think the books themselves are bad. It's just that they are misplaced. Look at other ranged weapon types. You'll notice that they are placed on jobs that either have few to no damage options within their skillset, or it just complements their skillset well (Snipe). I'll analyse what jobs books are on right now.

Squires - That might work sometimes for them, but overall it's bad because the things have such a terrible formula right now. The formula is going to change, but we have chosen for them to have poles instead (they already have crossbows for long range).
Summoner - I wouldn't say it's their best option, but when it comes to anti-sandbag, I believe it is. Paired with only slow summons, they will choose book shots on a critical unit because it achieves the same result with much less effort and risk. With 70 Fury and the new formula, I've calculated damage in the 200s with Overwhelm, so who knows what the AI will do.
Mediator - Doesn't work out too well because their skillset have the same range, you'd rather be using Insult than using book shot. Guns do a better job for anti-sandbag.
Oracle - Same as Mediator, but change guns to poles, and anti-sandbag to versatibility.
Scholar - In theory they make best use of them when it comes to pure damage, but they aren't likely to use them since it's just much better to cast Bio/Quakenado. Their skillset is generally fast (outside of map-wide Lores) unlike Summoners.

There might be other job options for books since we are taking them away from others. Perhaps Priests, since their skillset is almost entirely support. Or Paladins... It definitely wouldn't be optimized for them due to their poor MA, they'd just be a mix of anti-sandbag/crossing tool, but that's fine because it can encourage 3 Move Paladins to get closer instead of sitting back and wait for a striking opportunity. In addition, they might be actually one of the few that can make good use of the book procs.

(Well that ended up taking an hour to re-type. Good night)

[Andrew]

Updated to contain the proposals that we agreed upon during the final discussion.  Same goes for the text thread.  Time to begin 1.4 testing... soon!  (TM)

[Dokurider]

Looks good guys. Keep up the good work.

[Shintroy]

What's the revival chance on Cursed Ring now?