Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd

[philsov]

er, reducers tweaked from 10 to 15*.  Heh.

losing petrify is a good idea in itself, but expire as a replacement makes the yin/yang skill set too strong as a whole:
faith, mp recovery, health recovery/damage, a 2 cast death, mage-like mp/ma multipliers and sticks all on one class.

how about this: nix comet(time mages can use their wizard levels for damage) make expire the time magic 0ctr and give them countdown.  death sentence fits the time magic style better anyway. (at least in what passes for my mind)

kill petrify entirely... but really I can't think of a worthwhile replacement that would actually be codeable.

I don't like having Time Magic's 0 CTR being a massive conditional like Expire.  Perhaps Comet isn't the answer (I kinda like a mini-meteor, certainly more fitting than a Demi variant) and while "Countdown" does admittedly sound more time mage-y, I'll sooner just rename it and keep it on Oracles instead of Petrify.  Hm.  Condemnation?  Judgement?  Damnation? Convict?  Banish? 

Expire and ?Death Sentence? should not be in the same skillset. 

salamander and cyclops can go,

Works for me.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

??? - Weapon range attack inflicting stop
Leg Up - Self only, inflicts float at 100%.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence

Berserk - self-only berserk, haste, regen, and defending
Takedown - melee-range single target attack with recoil damage
Ground-Shaker - Self AoE of 2 dealing earth damage to everything in range (mimic titan for humans)

Throat Slit - dagger - attempts to inflict Death

Champion - Knight Sword only - HP draining weapon strike

Solace - Instant single target heal
Raise/Raise2
Holy

Frog
Death

Secret Fist

Steal Heart - 3 range, inflicts charm
Last Laugh - Critical only - inflicts Poison, Silence, and Blind onto single target

Countdown - Death Sentence
Petrify

Invite

Don't Move
Demi (1 AoE, 33% HP damage) / Demi2 (0 AoE, 67% HP damage)
Expire (cancels Death Sentence, inflicts 100% HP damage)

Salamander - 3 range 2 AoE dumb
Lich - 3 range 2 AoE 40% HP damage smart
Cyclops - 3 range 2 AoE straight damage, dumb (a little stronger than salamander)

All of these seem like they could be cut.  Specifically, two Demis and two Raises can easily become one Demi and one Raise, Impact is broke, possibly Nameless and Last stuff could be rather broke with flat Speed unless heavily debuffed, Ground-Shaker can easily just be Mimic Titan itself, Champion can easily just be damn Night Sword considering the difference is all of one panel tops, Frog is dumb, Mediator could probably stand to lose a few of the Statuses they inflict so that Oracle skillset has a reason to exist, etc.  I'd also argue that the "instant" Spells could just be the tier 1s of their respective Black and White schools for obvious reasons.

NOW YOU HAVE SPACE TO DO GOOD THINGS GET TO WORK.


@ The Damned, you should read FDC's hacking threads once in a while.

I'll do a more thorough overview later but these were somewhat obvious cuts that stood out.

[The Damned]

I really should. I actually, I think I had read FDC's hacking thread, but that was just before I stopped working on the patch. I suppose it would indeed do well to re-read those things.

Anyway, for the sake of sanity (read: length), I'm just going address all three responses while replying directly to philsov:

Yeah... I wanted some Dagger-exclusive move.  Throat slit seemed to work, but I'm open to other thoughts if they occur.

As I've said rather frequently (at least of late), I'm not really a fan of instant Death techniques, at least on PCs. You could make it Silence + Death Sentence, which would allow you to (perhaps greatly) up the hit rate and more "realistically" mimic actual throat slitting, since it's unfortunately not instant death.

Regarding cleave, yes, currently it's 75% with ~50% success rate, but suppose it might be better tweaked to do less damage but is a touch more reliable?

That seems like it would better, especially since now that I think about it, Cleave and Mutilate are basically the same thing, except that Goblins aren't as restricted in their access to the latter.

Flee... is there because the current tier-1 movements were Jump +1, Move Find Item, and Move HP Up.  Move +1 is generally better than Flee, and so I wanted Flee available before Move +1 did.

As I said, understandable.

Elixir won't be available via poaching, at least -- I'm torn between lategame random battle trophies or lategame storyline trophies (ie, finite versus farmable).

IMO, it should be the latter if Elixir isn't available to the AI; the former if it is. 

Shades of Grey is more a response to being able to inflict faith/innocent outside of the Oracle skillset, and since Item only really works as 100% infliction, I figure 50/50 shot is a lot better than blammo 100% Faith.

Oh, I wasn't really saying I disliked it or anything, just noting that we did pretty much everything same Item-wise (up until yesterday) outside of Elixir, Shade of Grey and the consolidation of the status items.

As for the cleanseables, it's pretty much identical to vanilla.  Holy Water is Petrify, Undead, Blood Suck, while Remedy is Petrify, Darkness, Confusion, Silence, Oil, Frog, Poison, Sleep.

I...see. Remedy seems like it still heals a bit too much, especially with the random HP gain as well. Is it or Holy Water supposed to cure Petrify?

Oh!  Forgot to mention it.  On success with remedy/holy water the target is healed for randomly between 1 and 150 HP.  With the other two main cleansers being AoE I thought Item needed the perk.

I'd disagree, but like Monks, I hate Chemists and it's not broken, so I'll just say that and won't bother pushing it unless it ends up being OP or something.

Yes, Shatter only works when the target has protect, shell, or is defending.  Otherwise it's 00% (think Raise, only... it's not).  Champion has a hefty MP cost attached to it.  I'm comfortable with it healing undead... its for the greater good imo.  And, yes, Magic Ruin is 50% MP damage.

Very well then.

Raven does make a point with regards to Champion and Night Sword. Is there are marked difference between the two?

Heh.  Snipe it is then.  Fire Arrow uses formula 02 -- weapon strike with 25% spell cast.  There's a bug if this formula is used on someone rocking a gun, but ARH fixes this problem.

Oh, right. I forgot about the formula since I haven't touched a formula in forever outside of revising a few things (really) early this morning.

The 2's are going to feature smart targetting and increased vert tol, for obviously more MP and increased CTR.

Not sure that's going to be enough, but very well.

And solace is awesome!  I admit it cuts into Item's monopoly/niche, but that's also half of the point.

Oh, I wasn't weeping for Chemists. I meant what I said: I'm weary of it, but I'll wait until I see it in action/use it myself before I attempt to make any concrete judgments on it.

And regarding beneficial spells, pretty much anything out of the Time and White magics (except Quick.) -- so stuff like cures and hastes assuming the reaction triggers and the wizard has sufficient MP.  Considering the current Counter Magic is used only in specific fights, this boon with beneficial spells should hopefully elevate it to a more general-usage reaction.

For the record, I really don't like that, but if you feel it's better, then I can't and won't stop you. If it ends up being overpowered like I think it will be, then it will eventually prove itself to be so.

It's removed more to avoid endgame brokenness, since equipping martial arts prevents equipping two hands/attack up and 999'ing everything to death.  Many of the punch arts are seeing an increase in power to compensate, martial arts will be 0 JP on unlock, and Monks will have the single highest PA multiplier among the generics.  They'll still be rather lethal with martial arts equipped, but they will be squishier -- which is OK given their power and versatility.

Fair enough.

However, does this mean you found a way to allow Monks to actually equip Martial Arts as a support? Because, like the Ninja slot and Two Swords, they can't equip it even if they don't have it innately.

Yes, Bio3 is available in a random battle in... Yuguo Woods and the Melt/Tornado/Quake folk are found in randoms of their original maps in case you miss them the first time around.

First time around?

Well, silence song is already rather fast and AoE, but Quell is useful when even that small CTR is too large or the target is immune to silence.

Fair enough. I still want to see how it works out, though.

Foxbird got nixed because of Zodiacs mostly because I want their reactions to come into play and disabling their reactions makes me a sad panda -- thus the only method for both CT00 and Br lowering are in Talk Skill, meaning I can just employ Finger Guard while keeping those functions present.

An interesting point. Even though this wasn't addressed to me, I'll take note of it.

Countdown being in a separate skillset from Expire is quite intentional, but I suppose Petrify could get axed/moved?

Petrify will probably getting axed if it gets moved since the only other class that I think it fits (at least in your hack) is Time Mage, but given that you're extremely reluctant to even give them Countdown alongside Expire, I don't see why you would give them Break. (Did you make Expire 100% hit or something? Why so reluctant when you gave let them keep Meteor and buffed Demi 2?)

Perhaps -15 for the lowerers?  I don't want to reach 20 because of random Brave units entering the battle with sub-50 brave and getting promptly Chickened.  At 15 that's minimum 3 actions to Chicken people which is much more acceptable.

That sounds about correct.

Ah, I see I must clarify.  One third of the elemental abilities are going to be PA-based, one third will be MA-based, and the remaining third will be PA and MA based.  Don't worry, I did a decent spread - especially with the more common ones so each of these panels should be present on most maps.  The in-game text when you're clicking on terrain will denote what type it is so there's no need to have a notepad at your side .  And the best part is that the AI is fully aware of this and will step onto the higher damaging panels to kill off people.  This is a perfect example of what this patch is trying to accomplish.

So I take that means you have decided on which ones are using which formula then? Because that's really all I was personally asking.

There's a hack available that makes it only work against sharp, 1-range weapons (ie, less than half of the weapon classes), which may just be enough.

That might still be too much depending on how prevalent "sharp" weapons still are. I mean, given that you're focusing on ASMs, last I remember you didn't overhaul (or, rather, completely change) any weapons completely, so there are still a hell of a lot swords (and other blades and such).

True about the jump thing.  I could just as well axe it and I don't think a single tear would be shed.  Focus has some nasty potential, but it's really no worse than two hands for fighters or Magic Attack Up for direct casters.

Fair enough point.

With the changes to movement and range, I expect to see a lot more clustering occur, which would then just be free reign to summon everything into oblivion without recourse.  So... a lot of the summons went into linear or tri-directional while half of the standard AoE ones lost smart targetting to prevent being oh-so clever.  It seems a bit out of place, but the current options are flat out remove them and leave the standard AoE with smart targetting around and with a large MP cost to couple with it, or have them stay around in and useable as openers or attacking the fringe or something.

I suppose that's a point. You could also make it not follow the target, too though.

Outside of that, I don't really have much of a problem with dumb versus smart casting, I just don't understand why both Fire-elemental summons are "dumb". It seems like Ifrit should be "smart" and Salamander should be "dumb" or vice versa if you're going to have two of the same elemental still.

I rather agree with Raven that Cyclops and Lich can die, though I've been kind of hating on Lich lately so I can only say that I'm unbiased when it comes towards Cyclops getting removed.

Nope.  I think concentrate would be better over martial arts, monster talk a necessity, and then I've currently got 2 slots set for reaction.  If I were to make their reaction counter flood (which works against most actions, it's just that I find counter+counter magic more... mimey.) there would be space, but alas.  They don't need additional PA since its fine on all other mime-y applications aside from their own attack, which is an emphasis that is welcome in my book.

Understandable.


As for what could possibly get removed, here's where I agree with Raven:

• Impact - It seems like it would be OP.


• Ground Shaker - I still say they could just take Mimic Titan; hell you could take that free skill. Hell, you could even just take Earth Slash from Monk and give it to Berserker instead of this now that I think about it.


• Throat Slit - I already said how I could picture it being re-worked if you want a Knife-based death-dealing technique.


• Champion - If it's not that different from Night Sword.


• Raise 2 - If it's still 100% HP.


• Death - It really just needs to die.


• Secret Fist - Monks don't need this.


• Invite - Even understanding why you're keeping it now, it still seems like a crutch to me.


• Demi 2 - While it would be nice to see this get some use, I think it's a bit much and Demi 2 isn't really necessary and it's one less percentage spell to have to worry about with regards to the Lucavi.


• Lich - Also not necessary AND it's yet another percentage spell to not have to worry about with regards to the Lucavi.


• Cyclops - Doesn't do anything special. No reason to use this compared to Bahamut outside of probably costing less MP from what you've told us.

I similarly have to agree that Nameless Song, Nameless Dance and Last Dance might need to be nerfed, but I don't think they need to be start up removed like Cheer Song, Slow Dance and Last Dance.

Outside of that, I'd personally say that you could probably get away with removing Protect 2, Shell 2, Haste 2 and Slow 2 in addition to the above. That might just be me, though.

[philsov]

NOW YOU HAVE SPACE TO DO GOOD THINGS GET TO WORK.

THERE ARE NO MORE GOOD THINGS TO DO.  I CAN BLOAT?

Bosses are fine, specials are fine, generics are fine (except maybe ninja, throw might get hit too hard with the speed curve thing), monsters are fine.  The only thing left to do is ADD DELICIOUS, SUCCULENT STICKS OF BUTTER INTO EVERYTHING. 

I strongly disagree with the thief sentiment, lightly disagree with several others, and agree on a few, but to what end?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

THERE ARE NO MORE GOOD THINGS TO DO.  I CAN BLOAT?

Bosses are fine, specials are fine, generics are fine (except maybe ninja, throw might get hit too hard with the speed curve thing), monsters are fine.

Says the man who gut an entire Special class because he was running out of room.  If memory serves, Ninjas get ~9 Speed naturally and have access to two pieces of +SP gear, so Throw does kinda suck since the range is based on Move and that also got raped pretty hard.  Throw would be better as a Support skill if you want to mess with the Generic Skillset Hack and make it work.

The only thing left to do is ADD DELICIOUS, SUCCULENT STICKS OF BUTTER INTO EVERYTHING. 

I strongly disagree with the thief sentiment, lightly disagree with several others, and agree on a few, but to what end?

Removing unnecessary skills gives each class more focus and stops the AI from spending JP on Stupid Shit (tm).  You can easily give the the same classes different skills that are less broke and/or have more reason to exist, make Beowulf into Beowulf again, possibly make Reis' primary set more worthwhile outside of dumb niches, etc.  Geomancer could arguably use a new primary set since you basically made Elemental even more random than it already was while leaving Elemental changes for the sake of Counter Flood, and a number of other things.

[philsov]

Champion and Night Sword. Is there are marked difference between the two?

Champion requires a Knight Sword is the big one, and then it costs more MP and has less range.

If Double Magic ends up being overpowered like I think it will be, then it will eventually prove itself to be so. 

In-deed.

However, does this mean you found a way to allow Monks to actually equip Martial Arts as a support?

Some behind the curtains switcharoo.  This will mean that another generic class will be unable to equip Martial Arts (probably either Time Mage or Summoner) however. 

First time around?

Yeah.  The storyline fights will feature the characters that cast Quake/Tornado/Melt, but a variant of the fight will be available as a random.

Did you make Expire 100% hit or something? Why so reluctant when you gave let them keep Meteor and buffed Demi 2?

Pretty much.  The percentage to hit bit is rolled into Death Sentence, so having a chance to hit death sentence followed up by another chance to hit coup de grace to prevent one or two enemy actions is too much imo.  Having both of these in the same skillset is simply too convenient. 

So I take that means you have decided on which ones are using which formula then? Because that's really all I was personally asking.

ah.  Yes, some time ago.

Says the man who gut an entire Special class because he was running out of room.

There was nothing really special about his abilities.  He was an Oracle on crack and required a sword to be thus.  Woooo.

Removing unnecessary skills gives each class more focus and stops the AI from spending JP on Stupid Shit (tm).

Giving the priest only 1 raise ability instead of 2 does not increase its focus in the slightest.  JP is a non issue for a vast majority of the game thanks to custom skillsets. 

You can easily give the the same classes different skills that are less broke and/or have more reason to exist, make Beowulf into Beowulf again, possibly make Reis' primary set more worthwhile outside of dumb niches, etc.  Geomancer could arguably use a new primary set since you basically made Elemental even more random than it already was while leaving Elemental changes for the sake of Counter Flood, and a number of other things.

Old Beowulf sucked anyways and giving him his old skillset back is a downgrade to his current form.  Reis' primary is already worthwhile between the elemental breaths and Holy Breath and her killer stats.  Elemental is no way more "random" unless you don't know how to press the select button and actually choose which terrain to step on.  It gained the ability to be carried by all classes and brings in an emphasis on unit placement. 

The "stop arrow" is already gone, leg up is staying, Impact is broken because of the damage or the silence inflict?, Berserk is half the damn point of the class (here let's remove haste from time mages), takedown is perfectly fine and fitting for the class, Mimic Titan is MA-based and thus has little reason to exist in that skillset, Throat Slit is welcoming suggestions, champion response is above, solace is fine, two ranks of raise is fine, priests losing Holy is outright laughable, frog and death can go - frankly, secret fist is fitting for the monk, no way is thief going to be reduced to just stealing stuff, Oracle is fine with either one of petrify or death sentence, Invite because this isn't Fire Emblem and replacing people from level 1 sucks -- we'll see how it plays out in lategame with the new formula and go from there, Don't Move was already half planned thanks to Archers, 2 ranks of Demi is fine, expire is fine, and the 3 summons are probably going to get cut (moreso the dumb targets, Lich being around in no way makes the summoner class lose focus, and if I can differentiate between that and the demi's theres no reason to remove it).

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Impact - Silence, 100% Silence = Essentially Auto Kill Mages Yay.  The huge sum of HP damage is gravy on top of sealing 5+ skillsets entirely and sometimes making units completely irrelevant until status heal or death without exception at best, and that's only assuming you make Silence disappear on death.

Berserk - It's like Ramza's Scream of 100% Berserk, Haste, Innocent in 1.3.  No matter how much it's "the point of the damn set", it's a horrible skill that no one will use unless you already have complete control of the fight and can risk not only having no control over your unit but also giving them horrible AI for nothing but a damage boost, at which point you don't even need the skill to begin with and it loses all reason to exist.

Holy - If you stop thinking "Well it's a Priest and White Magic it has to have Holy derp" and begin thinking "Wait this is an entirely support-based magic skillset WHY THE FUCK DOES IT INCLUDE A LOVING LONG RANGE 100% ACCURATE NUKE SKILL" you'll see why I mentioned it.  I don't know about you, but I can also think of probably 100 instances where the AI needs to be supporting its comrades and instead decides to go "OH I CAN KILL THIS WITH HOLY DERP" only to get a fist to the face and die, meaning it's both an unfitting skill that detracts the class' focus and a skill that sabotages the AI since the Priest's role is rarely to kill things.

Mimic Titan and Ground-Shaker - make Mimic Titan PA based and problem solved?

Secret Fist - not seeing how "fitting" is "a negative status move in a skillset of physical damage and tight-ranged physical support."

It's hard to reply to much else since "is fine" is such an ambiguous statement and doesn't actually answer the posit of "Is two ranks of this skill needed for the class to function properly?" or "Is this skill needed for the class to function in the way I intend?"

[Dokurider]

As for Secret Fist not fitting on Monks, for my tabletop, I changed the Ninja class to having all Dark Elemental attacks, including Secret Fist. I also gave them a psuedo throw move, an Line of Sight Teleport move, HP and MP Drain moves, an HP slice move, a knockback attack, an (The Damned won't like this) insta kill move, and a plain old Dark Damage attack.

I tried to turn Throw into a support, but it seemed too complex to fit into one support. Although yesterday, I came up with a new idea for a Throw Support. Just have it add a command that Throws your extra copies of the weapon or weapons you have equipped. I don't think that can be done for you guys though.

[The Damned]

I rather agree with Raven about Impact, Mimic Titan/Ground-Shaker and Secret Fist. I believe that "Berserk" could be (more) decent if Berserk can be hacked and made finite (or if you enable reactions while Berserked). While he makes a decent point about Holy, I'm pretty biased about keeping it around, so I don't know, maybe make it less of a "nuke"?

*shrugs*

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I tried to turn Throw into a support, but it seemed too complex to fit into one support. Although yesterday, I came up with a new idea for a Throw Support. Just have it add a command that Throws your extra copies of the weapon or weapons you have equipped. I don't think that can be done for you guys though.

How is it complex?  The range is either Move or Move x 2 depending on what ranges you have available, damage is straight weapon element WP * SP like it is normally or a variation thereof pending SP totals, and Throwable Items are anything in that lone player's Inventory since I assume Equipment is in a D&D like style where players don't share by default but can give each other stuff.  I don't see how implementing this into a Tabletop would be hard - if you're not overthinking it, it seems abysmally easy.

[Dokurider]

Well for one, it didn't help that my original idea for a Throw support was badly thought out. It was originally too complex to be a support, but now it's not the case.

Secondly, my tabletop is not a conversion. It's a straight port. Everything is pretty much equivalent to the original game mechanically speaking. The D&D convert has been done already.

Thirdly, just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should. Simplicity and faithfulness to the original game is the law of the land. That's why I'm having nightmares over Line of Sight. Every time I think about it...*shudders*

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Thirdly, just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should. Simplicity and faithfulness to the original game is the law of the land. That's why I'm having nightmares over Line of Sight. Every time I think about it...*shudders*

Says the guy who just described his completely not-FFT Ninja and who at one point developed several overwrought and unfaithful mechanics before I whapped him a few times.

Making Throw a Support skill keeps it in play though, and options are good since it's essentially an instant low-to-mid damage ranged skill(set?) that goes over your ability to spec your character out some.  Considering Throw itself was in FFT originally, it's not really a lack of faithfulness - it's finding a way to make your Ninja have some depth without removing an option that was original in FFT itself.

@ The Damned - the main problem is "converting" Holy in a feasible way.  It could be a Tier-2 Holy Element single target spell with lower range and evadable, but then it both doesn't have the oomph to justify that ridiculously long animation and really doesn't remedy the conflict going on - just weakens Holy itself.  I would be tempted to move Holy onto Wizard (despite the conceptual conflict) or, my preference, make it a skill unique to High Priests such as Zalmo who already have an offensive element to them since it's a giant fuck off ball of Holy energy that every average Priest probably wouldn't have access to.

[Dokurider]

Says the guy who just described his completely not-FFT Ninja and who at one point developed several overwrought and unfaithful mechanics before I whapped him a few times.

Making Throw a Support skill keeps it in play though, and options are good since it's essentially an instant low-to-mid damage ranged skill(set?) that goes over your ability to spec your character out some.  Considering Throw itself was in FFT originally, it's not really a lack of faithfulness - it's finding a way to make your Ninja have some depth without removing an option that was original in FFT itself.

Wait, what? Just to be clear, I agree with you. I was just explaining that my original idea was so bad, that it caused me to change it back to a skillset for a while.

[philsov]

Impact - Silence, 100% Silence = Essentially Auto Kill Mages Yay.

No one on these boards has ever called Silence Song broken.  At 70 on 70 faith, it has a 93% success rate. with AoE.  And a shorter charge time than Impact.  Vanilla Silf boasts 78% under the same circumstances with 2 AoE.  100% single target isn't too far from either of these, and it's broken?

~

Yes, units under berserk can still react.  

I can also think of probably 100 instances where the AI needs to be supporting its comrades and instead decides to go "OH I CAN KILL THIS WITH HOLY DERP"

Are you suggesting that I should give all enemy priests Item secondary?  Because I assure you if they lose holy but have any other secondary but Item the exact same scenario will gloriously still occur.  

Mimic Titan and Ground-Shaker - make Mimic Titan PA based and problem solved?

Nah, because then the difference between Bull melee and Bull mimic titan will be too small, with mimic titan being the optimal action a vast majority of the time.

"Wait this is an entirely support-based magic skillset.  "a negative status move in a skillset of physical damage and tight-ranged physical support."

Because you're falsely labeling them as thus.  It's just wizard-did-it handwaving that anyone can muster and warp.  White Magic is a mostly support-based magic skillset that also features a single powerful spell with which to smite people.  There.  Now Holy makes sense.  Should I perhaps give Monk more negative status to expand its definition to be "physical damage and point-blank support and negative status infliction"?  

It's hard to reply to much else since "is fine" is such an ambiguous statement and doesn't actually answer the posit of "Is two ranks of this skill needed for the class to function properly?" or "Is this skill needed for the class to function in the way I intend?"

Every single skillset can be reduced to somewhere between 2 to 6 skills and still function properly and within design intention.  No, two ranks of Demi aren't needed.  One rank of demi isn't even needed.  I can give Time Mages Haste, Slow, Quick, and Float and call it a day with my puritanical definitions.  Priests can be reduced to 2 cure spells, protect, shell, and raise.  Wizard can have one spell from each element that strongly differs from each other, and then flare.  Knight can lose all equipment breaks except Weapon break and then be declared to focus on "reducing the offensive abilities of enemies".  Thief, then, loses steal Weapon and any negative status infliction and walks around with a 4-ability skillset devoted to taking the enemy's defensive items.  Like... 33% of all generic abilities are actually needed, and even then sometimes it doesn't matter what exactly gets cut - monk can randomly lose any 2 of its 4 punchy skills and still be workable.  

But I'm not going to be doing any of that nonsense.  

So, yes, 2 ranks of Raise are within the intended role for Priest.  And Time Mages with 2 ranks of demi are welcome to increase Time Mage functionality.  There is no reason to remove either of them.  The player can choose if (s)he wants to do a quick, cheap, reliable rez at 50% HP or have a delayed, expensive, potentially failing rez at 100%.  Why should I simplify the game and prevent strategical decisions from occurring?  If there was a need for additional ability slots I'd be more inclined to actually do something about this, but as it is there's simply no point.  

As for Secret Fist not fitting on Monks, for my tabletop, I changed the Ninja class to having all Dark Elemental attacks, including Secret Fist. I also gave them a psuedo throw move, an Line of Sight Teleport move, HP and MP Drain moves, an HP slice move, a knockback attack, an (The Damned won't like this) insta kill move, and a plain old Dark Damage attack.

Excellent ideas for a ninja skillset should that occur. Thanks!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

No one on these boards has ever called Silence Song broken.  At 70 on 70 faith, it has a 93% success rate. with AoE.  And a shorter charge time than Impact.  Vanilla Silf boasts 78% under the same circumstances with 2 AoE.  100% single target isn't too far from either of these, and it's broken?

If I couldn't just walk up to those mages and eat through them like paper in either Vanilla or 1.3, yes.  70 v 70 doesn't happen enough for that comparison to work, though - 70 v 60 or 70 v 55 is more realistic due to random AI Faiths.  I'm operating under the assumption I can't just walk up to a mage in ASM'd and eat it like delicious nommy paper.  If I can, then obviously Impact isn't a problem, but that's just because mages suck so much in terms of damage that in any situation I would be in range for Impact I can just kill them horribly instead, but that itself seems like a pretty bad design choice.

Are you suggesting that I should give all enemy priests Item secondary?  Because I assure you if they lose holy but have any other secondary but Item the exact same scenario will gloriously still occur.

Yin-Yang Magic, Time Magic partially, Basic Skill partially, Item, Perform,  and a few others.  Downgrading Holy damage-wise makes it happen far less often, my point dissenting about that was that it's still not really focused.

Nah, because then the difference between Bull melee and Bull mimic titan will be too small, with mimic titan being the optimal action a vast majority of the time.

Make Mimic Titan use the Monk formula so it's weaker than basic melee but hits a large area? 

So, yes, 2 ranks of Raise are within the intended role for Priest.  And Time Mages with 2 ranks of demi are welcome to increase Time Mage functionality.  There is no reason to remove either of them.  The player can choose if (s)he wants to do a quick, cheap, reliable rez at 50% HP or have a delayed, expensive, potentially failing rez at 100%.  Why should I simplify the game and prevent strategical decisions from occurring?  If there was a need for additional ability slots I'd be more inclined to actually do something about this, but as it is there's simply no point.

Intense swooshing is occurring here, so whatever.

Never mind.  My head hurts at this point.

[philsov]

kay.

Make Mimic Titan use the Monk formula so it's weaker than basic melee but hits a large area?

Then it becomes a wider area Wave Around.  If I'm seriously strapped for slots I may still do it, but current open count is... 10, so current plan is to keep mimic titan as MA-based for damage difference funsies.

~

For Damned, ye olde 0 JP list.  I thought I had posted it somewhere else but my search fu is weaksauce it seems.

spoiler

Sq: Accumulate, Throw Stone
Kn: Shield Break, Speed Break
Ar: Aim, Fire Arrow
Ch: Potion, Phoenix Down
Pr: Cure, Protect, Shell
Wz: Fire, Ice, Lit
Mk: Spin Fist, Martial Arts
Ln: 2 Horiz, 3 Vert
Th: Steal Helmet
BM: None~
Or: Blind, Spell Absorb
Md: Warn, Persuade
Ge: Hell Ivy, Pitfall (I think those are the two most common...)
Sa: Asura
Nin: Shuriken, Ball
TM: Haste, Slow
Su: Moogle, Shiva
Pe: Life Song, Wiznaibus
Be: Berserk, Shove

[philsov]

OK, so... Alma hack.  For those of you not "in the know", this will allow myself and others to assign item-like attributes to any ability, including RSM.  Additionally I can create passive, permanent perks on having certain abilities just flat out learned or getting up to job level X.  I don't have much interest in the current form of passive permanent perks but being able to do this to RSM makes me very pleased.  In short, I can have either a positive or negative to HP/MP/Sp/PA/MA in either absolutes or percentages (+100 HP, or -10% MA, for example), or assign status initial/cancel/always and/or elemental half/absorb/etc.  

Thus, the goal is two-pronged for RSM -- boost the low-hangers, while nerfing the really awesome ones.

So...

first off, the list.  

spoiler

Abandon              
Weapon Guard              
PA Save              
Auto Potion              
Auto Protect        
Damage Split              
Gilgame Heart              
MA Save              
Regenerator          
Speed Save              
Brave Up
Counter
Condemn  
Dragon Spirit    
Auto Shel  
Crit Quick  
HP Restore
Meatbone Slash            
MP Restore              
Absorb Used MP              
Arrow Guard              
Catch              
Counter Flood              
Double Magic              
Distribute        
Faith Up          
Finger Guard            
?Reflect?              
             
*Blade Grasp              
Hamedo              
MP Switch              
             
~              
             
Amplify              
Attack Up              
Concentrate              
Defend              
Def Up              
Equip Armor              
Equip Meleeset              
Equip Change              
Equip Bow              
Equip Gun              
Equip Shield              
Equip Mageset              
Focus              
Gained Exp Up              
Half MP              
Insulate              
Magic Attack Up              
Magic Def Up              
Maintenance              
Martial Arts              
Monster Skill              
Monster Talk              
Noncharge              
Secret Hunt              
Short Charge              
Throw Item              
Train                
Two Hands              
Two Swords              
             
*Gained JP Up              
             
~              
             
Any Ground
Any Weather          
Cannot Enter Water              
Flee              
Float              
Fly              
Ignore Height              
Jump +1          
Jump +2              
Jump +3              
Move +1          
Move +2              
Move in Water          
Move on Lava            
Move Underwater              
Move Find Item              
Move Get Exp              
Move Get JP              
Move HP Up              
Move MP Up              
Walk on Water              
             
*Move +3              
Teleport

And then sorted into the "perk me" "as is" and "omg nerf me" groups, with some potential changes.  Note -- these are additional attributes along with whatever these normally do.  On review I can setup a few to better provide random status immunity, but taking suggestions and critiques on the current mesh.

Reactions

spoiler

Perk me:
Auto Protect - Initial protect            
Gilgame Heart - ??? It's useless as is.          
Regenerator  - Initial regen
Brave Up   - +1 PA
Auto Shell - Initial: Shell      
Meatbone Slash - +10% HP  (15%?)          
Absorb Used MP - ???
Catch - ???
Distribute -  Absorb: Holy + Dark            
Faith Up - +1 MA            
Finger Guard - immune: negative Talk skill statii (berserk, sleep, don't act)
Awareness - immune: Blind
Reflect - Completely blank atm.

Fine:
Abandon              
Weapon Guard              
PA Save              
Auto Potion              
MA Save              
Speed Save              
Counter              
Condemn              
Dragon Spirit (it would make good sense in symetry to make it initial: reraise, like teh others, but that's too good imo)
Crit Quick              
HP Restore              
MP Restore              
Arrow Guard              
Counter Flood              
Double Magic                

Nerf:
Damage Split - -10% HP (15%?)          

Still banned unless there's a REALLY good fix around:
Hamedo
Blade Grasp
MP Switch

Support:

spoiler

Perk me:
Defend - +10% HP
Gained Exp Up - (probably not going to bother with this one)
Monster Skill - "Warding" - half: all elements
Monster Talk - ???      
Secret Hunt - ???      
Train - ???              

Fine:
Amplify              
Attack Up              
Concentrate              
Def Up              
Equip Armor              
Equip Meleeset              
Equip Change              
Equip Bow              
Equip Gun              
Equip Shield              
Equip Mageset              
Focus              
Half MP              
Insulate              
Magic Attack Up              
Magic Def Up              
Maintenance              
Martial Arts              
Short Charge              
Throw Item              

Nerf:
Two Hands - -25% PA (effective strike = 150%)
Two Swords - 25% PA (effective strike = 150%)

Banned/Enemy only:
Gained JP Up
Noncharge

Movements:

spoiler

Perk me:
Any Ground: "Swampwalk" - Cancel: Earth, Immune: Poison
Any Weather: "Indra's Grace" - Absorb, Str: Lightning
Move +1: Gains Jump +1
Jump +1: ??? (blank atm)
Jump +2: ??? (can be blanked)
Jump +3: ??? (can be blanked)
Move in Water: Absorb: Water
Move on Lava: Absorb: Fire
Move Underwater: (probably not going to bother with this one)
Move Get Exp: ??? (probably not going to bother with this one)
Walk on Water: ???

Fine:
Flee              
Float              
Fly              
Ignore Height              
Move +2              
Move HP Up              
Move MP Up              
Move Find Item              

Nerf me:
None

Banned unless severely modified:
Move +3 - ??? can be blanked
Teleport
Move Get JP

[The Damned]

I'm not planning on using ALMA at present, so take everything in this post with (more of) a grain of salt (than usual).

That said, these changes look pretty good, especially given you didn't overhaul equipment or skills all that massively from what I remember off the top of my head; I have too many windows to open something else right now.

Here are the thing I've the most opinion on right now:

• What would you do if you "blanked" something?
  
  
• I'm not really comfortable with the Initial status thing, though I suppose those three are like the least offensive things to start with as far as positive statuses go. And, hell, if it encourages other people to actually use Dispel Magic, then why the hell not? (Outside of wanting to give them to bosses and/or certain monsters.)
  
  
• I'm not sure that Gilgame Heart can be saved. I've been thinking about it and given that it isn't a Support, you can't even turn it into "Gillionare" like you can with Secret Hunt. Then again, I'm not whether ALMA will even allow you to multiple Gil gains once battle ends and it's not like it'd be that useful of an ability. What's annoying, though, is that going the opposite direction and turning into some "Blood Money" or "Bribe" type ability where you get to ignore (even only certain) attacks would just be broken, even with limitations like a Gil count or only working on humans ala Hamedo.
  
  
• The HP gain to Meatbone Slash seemed slightly counter-inituitive to me for some reason, but I guess I was just having a brainfart. Of all the weak reactions with changes, I like that one the best now.
  
  
• Absorb Used MP can probably benefit from some X+% MP type boost like Meatbone Slash with its HP boost.
  
  
• Catch seems like it can either be immune Stop or immune Slow. Not both, though.
  
  
• Distribute's absorption seems a bit...random to be honest, but I guess it's fine. You haven't changed Distribute to count self-healing, correct?
  
  
• I never thought I'd say this (except maybe to my patch, haha), but those changes to Finger Guard make it seem a bit...overpowered considering how debilitating just two of those statuses are. I guess I'm fine with it staying as is because it will still block positive talk...except for Preach, right? I mean, if you could make it block that too I'd say it'd be fine....
  
  
• I'd argue that Dragon Spirit and HP Restore need nerfing as well. If anything, it seems like HP Restore is the thing that drop your HP a bit. Might just be me, though.
  
  
• Damage Split I'd argue needs more of a nerf than that. Make it -10% HP, -100 EV% (if you can) IMO. If you want to do damage for getting hit, then get hit by fucking everything.
  
  
• Monster Skill becoming Warding doesn't sit right with me, but given how many new elemental things I have in my patch, that's probably my bias again.
  
  
• I'd say that Monster Talk should make you immune to Silence, but here's the problem: I'd imagine that, even with ALMA, you'd be giving these boosts to anything that has the changed RSM...even anything that already has it Innately. I'm all for giving Mediator an innate immunity to a status, but it seems a bit more to directly counter their biggest weakness, especially with the monster buff to Finger Guard. So, I'm honestly not sure (or, rather, less sure than I already am about everything).
  
  
• ...How the hell does Concentrate not need a nerf? I'm assuming this is a typo. Or am I just having imagined that you got rid of it completely begin with? Same with Martial Arts.
  
  
• Maintenance might need a buff I'd argue unless you made it block -stat debuffs as well. Maybe Immune: Death Sentence? It would fit without being able to be used against the AI.
  
  
• Two Hands and Two Swords being effectively changed like that make me laugh, though I concur (probably--I'm still not sure whether 1.5 is "enough" given what you're often giving up, but eh).
  
  
• As with Monster Talk, any changes to Any Ground seem like they would effect Geomancers. While I'm all for giving classes innate immunities, immunity to Earth alongside immunity to Poison seems a bit overpowered on a human, especially since your Geomancers are based off 1.3 ones IIRC. That means they absorb Fire as well as canceling Earth innately. That's a pretty damn big buff, especially since it further obviates Float.
  
  
• Any Weather, on the other hand, is a change I quite approve.
  
  
• I'd argue that Fly either needs nerf or Ignore Height needs a buff because Fly still completely obviates Ignore Height while even Move +1 isn't even completely obviated by Move +2 now.
  
  
• You honestly think Move-Get Jp is worth banning? I'm curious as to why given that I honestly thought it would end up on the "Perk Me" side.
  
  
• No buffs to Cannot Enter Water? Or did you just get rid of that entirely for monsters?
  
  
  
  Speaking of monsters, man, ALMA is going to make balancing them with RSMs a pain in the ass, but I suppose you didn't go nearly as overboard as I did.
  
  Outside of that list (that turned out being longer than before), I either have no opinion on other changes or I can't think of suggestions for things; hell, I can't even think of a suggestion for another battle despite having a lot more (definite) information to work with now.

[Dokurider]

1. With the Damage Output of Two Swords and Two Hands being reduced, is Two Swords going back to being fully accessible to all generic jobs? If so, are you worried about it outclassing Two Hands?

2. I agree with Concentrate needing a nerf. It should go from ignoring evasion entirely, to a mere 50% evasion reduction. Actually, how about you move Concentrate in it's current form to boss/Mustadio only, rename it Pierce, then take Gain EXP Up, turn it to 50% evasion reduction and rename it to Concentrate.

3. I'm starting to lose track of what's not possible anymore, so I'll just throw an idea out there. Rock Skin: Gain great physical prowess when not wearing any head or body pieces.

4. I'm gonna take a shot at balancing the banned reactions. How about -2 Speed for Blade Grasp/Hamedo? That way, it's unfeasible on big, powerful units that are already a bitch to take out.

5. Secret Hunt = Strengthen: Dark

6. +1 Speed/-1 Move?

[pokeytax]

Just a note that you still have to balance flails/staffs/poles/whatever else doesn't use straight PA formula with Two Swords/Two Hands. On the other hand, it neatly solves the Two Swords/barehanded problem - Two Swords gives PA weapons a 50% boost, fists a 12% boost.

I'll try and sort out the rest of ALMA/disablers as I understand it's hard to get moving with the hack half-done!