FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[reinoe]

Considering that Wiznaibus spam teams(circulus terestris, Depletion Dance, SYTYCD) actually have a winning record I'm convinced that ability needs to die because it's borderline OP.

[Dokurider]

I'm...not sure how to feel about this, though I will admit it's not an entirely horrible idea.

I still say that letting Nameless Song have the ability to also add Haste in addition to the other statuses (maybe minus Reflect or Reraise) would a) get the A.I. to actively use it and b) definitely see it getting use.

If your above change were to happen, I would like to see it still be usable if the user is Frogged. There should be a way to do that (that I still haven't tested...).

The thing is, the FFT engine can't handle adding and canceling statuses in a single instance, FFM confirmed. So a song and dance can either only add statuses or remove them.

As for Frog, I forgot that Frog immunity isn't covered by Defense Ring, too bad there isn't much in the way of a replacement. Cancel: Silence would hurt Silence too much IMO and Sleeping units can't even be effected by Songs and Dances. So other than Don't Move, I don't really know what else could be the 4th status to cancel. Everything else either wears off too quickly, could be applied too quickly to make a real difference, or just don't deserve it. We could remove Sleep's Song/Dance immunity, but I'd rather see if it even works and works well first.

Meh. That seems both like a pain in the ass and unnecessary given that a) Wiznaibus would still suck compared to Lore even with Auto Potion, especially with Mimes becoming able to equip things in 1.39a, and b) Bags deserve to be "liabilities" for their ubiquity and flexibility.

Not that I'd mind the change, really, especially just to know the amount of difficulty it took to get done, but, again, "meh".

I'm absolutely certain once FDC gets back from his trip, he'd be happy to pound out that hack, given that he's already modifying other reactions with even more complex triggers than a simple less than damage conditional. Furthermore, he'd probably be interested in such a hack for his own patch anyways. As for bags, I think that bag users are punished enough by wasting turns moving into combat and meleeing with a worthless weapon. I'd be willing to cut them a break if it meant making Wiznaibus better. Lore vs Wiznaibus is still a problem, but removing the Auto Potion obstacle helps considerably. An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.

[The Damned]

(...So of course I fall asleep almost immediately after I get back, if by immediately, we mean "an hour".

I'll save the equipment and ability "write-up" stuff for when/if I actually get my Internet back in the next 12 hours.)

Well, it's not like Wiznaibus teams can't win even if the opponent doesn't have Auto-Potion.

It's merely that of all strategies, Wiznaibus is the one most reliant on Mimes to Mimic it so that's it actually a threat. "Depletion Dance" is probably the only exception to the rule like, ever, and despite the fact that I don't think I've ever seen it fight yet, I'd bet that Wiznaibus being there is more incidental to victory than the cause of it when you have two powerful Cover Fire-bots and broke-ass Kagesougi. It also helps that Wiznaibus there is on a 40/40 bait-Paladin when currently 40/40 units are still tough as hell to take down given how little Nether Magic or -tons are used currently and when Wiznaibus is not affected by Brave/Fury/Whatever.

The thing is, the FFT engine can't handle adding and canceling statuses in a single instance, FFM confirmed. So a song and dance can either only add statuses or remove them.

Uh...I'm well-aware that. Horribly well aware of that given I think I reported on that within the first year of being here.

I meant adding Haste to the current Nameless Song statuses, not to your idea. As in, making it either a five-status ability or giving Add Haste in addition to Protect or Shell at the cost of either losing the ability to add Reraise or Reflect, both while still being a Random 50% ability.

Either that or your current initial proposal seems like it would be a marked improvement over the current Nameless Song, which isn't...horrible, but the A.I. will not use it proactively and then it will refuse to shut the hell about it a lot of the time. The second aspect is somewhat why I'm hesitant about allowing it to add Haste, but meh--letting it add Defending as initially mused months back would be even worse.

Regardless, I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Perhaps because I didn't make the antecedent of "it" clearer?

As for Frog, I forgot that Frog immunity isn't covered by Defense Ring, too bad there isn't much in the way of a replacement. Cancel: Silence would hurt Silence too much IMO and Sleeping units can't even be effected by Songs and Dances. So other than Don't Move, I don't really know what else could be the 4th status to cancel. Everything else either wears off too quickly, could be applied too quickly to make a real difference, or just don't deserve it. We could remove Sleep's Song/Dance immunity, but I'd rather see if it even works and works well first.

Again, I'm not sure what exactly you're replying in given what I actually typed, especially since antecedent trouble doesn't explain this.

I meant that I'm fine with it curing Frog if we went with that version, just that I think it "should" be usable while the unit itself is Frogged; it's not mandatory or anything. So curing Frog is fine.

Anyway, the status is I'm more skeptical about it curing is Doom/Death Sentence, if only because of the A.I. tending to ignore it so blatantly as it is, Reraise & it not canceling each other and the fact that this healing could be done from anywhere on the map. Then again, given the proposed hit rate and the fact that any team that "should" actually be using Death Sentence tends to be at least somewhat durable enough to take those "free hits", it would probably be fine.

Maybe.

I'm absolutely certain once FDC gets back from his trip, he'd be happy to pound out that hack, given that he's already modifying other reactions with even more complex triggers than a simple less than damage conditional. Furthermore, he'd probably be interested in such a hack for his own patch anyways. As for bags, I think that bag users are punished enough by wasting turns moving into combat and meleeing with a worthless weapon. I'd be willing to cut them a break if it meant making Wiznaibus better.

*shrugs*

Don't get me wrong. I can see the possible merits, especially with Auto Potion's healing rate being lowered. I just...am lukewarm to the idea and also don't think it will ultimately fix what's wrong with Wiznaibus.

Lore vs Wiznaibus is still a problem, but removing the Auto Potion obstacle helps considerably. An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.

Except that (I still say) making Lore dual-elemental doesn't change anything and taking Clothes away from Mimes sure as hell won't stop Mime-Lore given they'll still have access to shields, accessories and, arguably most importantly now, RSMs. So they can just use Equip Clothing anyway, if they even need to, even if, yeah, that means not being able to use Magic Attack UP or Overwhelm or whatever to boost Lore further.

Still, that's not enough to stop Lore from beating the shit out of Wiznaibus in its current form since basically all that Wiznaibus over Lore was that it didn't kill Mimes allies and that it could never be absorbed. With the major one of those gone....

Regardless of Lore's most likely eventual resurgence as an extreme pain in the ass,, it would probably help if FFMaster posted what he's actually doing with Mimes' stats in 1.39(a).

[JamesOnyx]

As someone who highly enjoys Lore I hope it remains the same, but that's just my bias talking. 

An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.

Mimes with clothes and shields?  The memcard generator and the Master Guide both state that Mimes don't have the ability to equip any items or abilities, so am I missing something or are you just talking about the supporting characters other than the Mimes?  If I'm missing something I need start using me some Mimes... if your just worrying about the supporting characters I don't see the merit for nerfing Clothes in general.

Still, 33% Add: Reflect and, what, 10 WP for Coral Sword sounds reasonable.

If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.

spoiler: Singular "Strengthen" Instances

Fire: Asura Knife, Koga Knife (1.39 change), Rod
Ice: Rod
Lightning: Mace of Zues, Rod
Wind: Spiked Futon
Earth: Iga Knife (1.39 change), Earth Clothes
Light: Excalibur
Dark: Kotetsu Knife, Sadist's Whip

Sure you could always just equip a Giant Axe,Prismatic Rod, or something but it just doesn't seem right.

What if we did something along the lines of this?

spoiler: Armor Changes

Diamond Armor: 120 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA
Platina Armor: 115 HP, Immune: Berserk, Darkness, Poison, Don't Move
Carabini Mail: Removed from the game
Aqua Vest: HP 90, MP 20, Absorb: Water, Strengthen: Water

It basically just combines Platina and Carabini into Diamond (which creates some nice synergy with Diamond Armlet) and gives the immunities to Platina which matches it's Helms theme.  By getting rid of Carabini Mail it would make room for the Aqua Vest.

By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???

[Dokurider]

Uh...I'm well-aware that. Horribly well aware of that given I think I reported on that within the first year of being here.

I meant adding Haste to the current Nameless Song statuses, not to your idea. As in, making it either a five-status ability or giving Add Haste in addition to Protect or Shell at the cost of either losing the ability to add Reraise or Reflect, both while still being a Random 50% ability.

Either that or your current initial proposal seems like it would be a marked improvement over the current Nameless Song, which isn't...horrible, but the A.I. will not use it proactively and then it will refuse to shut the hell about it a lot of the time. The second aspect is somewhat why I'm hesitant about allowing it to add Haste, but meh--letting it add Defending as initially mused months back would be even worse.

Regardless, I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Perhaps because I didn't make the antecedent of "it" clearer?

You and your fancy grammar.

Nameless Song could add Haste and Wall and it'll still not be viable. It already adds Reraise, it doesn't get much better than that. I just don't think anyone wants unreliable random buffs, especially given how often death occurs. Even if you built sturdy units to keep those buffs, they'd still be better served by Battle/Magic Song or Slow Dance. Nameless Song as is, just doesn't give you any kind of real solid advantage it seems like. Not enough to slot a unit to spamming it exclusively.

Again, I'm not sure what exactly you're replying in given what I actually typed, especially since antecedent trouble doesn't explain this.

I meant that I'm fine with it curing Frog if we went with that version, just that I think it "should" be usable while the unit itself is Frogged; it's not mandatory or anything. So curing Frog is fine.

Anyway, the status is I'm more skeptical about it curing is Doom/Death Sentence, if only because of the A.I. tending to ignore it so blatantly as it is, Reraise & it not canceling each other and the fact that this healing could be done from anywhere on the map. Then again, given the proposed hit rate and the fact that any team that "should" actually be using Death Sentence tends to be at least somewhat durable enough to take those "free hits", it would probably be fine.

Maybe.

Yeah lemme rephrase my statement:

I don't think we just devote hacking time to an idea that while I'm confident will work out, may actually not. It would suck to have an ASMer pound this out only to turn around and find out it was a bad idea in hindsight. I'd rather just jury-rig Don't Move or something in Frog's place for now until we can confirm that this change to Nameless Song is any good via testing, in particular, how the AI handles such a spell. It should handle it OK, but you never know with the AI.

As for Death Sentence, the enemy AI ignores DS units, but ally AI will always try to cure DS if it can. It's just, there isn't much the AI can do about DS aside from Refute and adding Reraise. There are no skills that cure DS outright.

Mimes with clothes and shields?  The memcard generator and the Master Guide both state that Mimes don't have the ability to equip any items or abilities, so am I missing something or are you just talking about the supporting characters other than the Mimes?  If I'm missing something I need start using me some Mimes... if your just worrying about the supporting characters I don't see the merit for nerfing Clothes in general.

Mimes are going to gain the ability to equip items and RSM come next update. It's not a thing now, but it will be in 139 guaranteed. It's just it's potential effects with Lore are less than thrilling (unless you're on the Mimic Loring side of course).

spoiler

If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.

Asparagus Flail isn't going anywhere. It's most likely going to stay Water. It was only going to be changed to reflect the possible changes to the -tons the Flails complement. So Aqua Vest isn't necessary. That being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.

spoiler

By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???

Same reason a Perfume makes you tougher or come back from the dead once while preventing you from falling asleep or turning into a frog or drives you completely insane or how a harp can not only damage you but can heal the user for the same amount of damage.

[JamesOnyx]

Mimes are going to gain the ability to equip items and RSM come next update. It's not a thing now, but it will be in 139 guaranteed. It's just it's potential effects with Lore are less than thrilling (unless you're on the Mimic Loring side of course).

I could have sworn in a different hack I played Mimes were able to equip but I'm not sure I've ever experienced any RSM Mimes before.  Sounds like fun!  I'll definetely have to test my Lore team with at least 1 Mime.  It'll probably be built like MA Save, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up.  But we'll have to see how the stats for the Mimes change though as The Damned stated.  Hopefully they turn out something like this:

spoiler: Hopeful Mime Stats

Male
HP: 154
MP: 57
SP: 8
PA:10
MA: 8
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV: 10

Female
HP: 144
MP: 61
SP: 8
PA: 8
MA: 10
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV: 10

That being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.

Most of the armors are extremely boring...  There's got to be something we could do to make one at least a little exciting.  I still like the combined Diamond Armor so how about changing up the Carabini Armor.  How does something like this sound?

spoiler: Stone Armor

HP 100, Initial: Petrify, Wall, Half: Fire, Earth

With the correct setup, a unit equipped with this would be capable of wrecking havoc the first couple turns (especially on small maps, not so much on large).  But when Wall passes they'd still have a somewhat decent buff in targeted magic resistance.  The HP gain is just an estimate, I'm not quite sure exactly how much an armor like this should receive.

Same reason a Perfume makes you tougher or come back from the dead once while preventing you from falling asleep or turning into a frog or drives you completely insane or how a harp can not only damage you but can heal the user for the same amount of damage.

*Decapitates a Cursed Ring Paladin wearing a Diamond Helm*
Head, I'm a floating head.  And I float float float, and I float float float.

[Gaignun]

That being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.

There's no need to fill armor slots that need no filling.  Combining Carabini and Platina armors won't reduce options; it'll consolidate them.  People are usually interested in boosting only PA or MA.  This way, they'll just select the same piece of armor in both cases.  You're right in saying that there's little reason to do it, though.

If Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.

[JamesOnyx]

There's no need to fill armor slots that need no filling.  Combining Carabini and Platina armors won't reduce options; it'll consolidate them.  People are usually interested in boosting only PA or MA.  This way, they'll just select the same piece of armor in both cases.  You're right in saying that there's little reason to do it, though.

I can't tell if you'd be okay with Carabini/Platina combination or would rather keep them the same?  "Consolidating" as a concept is usually a good thing so...

I don't see an issue with combining those two armors when they only grant a +1 to PA/MA.  If they had +2s, such as Wizard Outfit, Robe, or Power Sleeve I would understand.  But opening up another slot for something besides just a simple +1 would increase the potential for new builds and creativity.

In the first place, I only brought up the new armor because of the possibility of water loosing it's singular equipment buff, but decided to just keep rolling with the Diamond Armor meets Armlet design because it just seemed to make sense.  It in no way needs to be implemented, but I think it wouldn't hurt none the less.

If Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they lost all of their innate abilities.  Their potential would be incredible if they got to keep Concentrate and be able to equip Attack Up/Magic Attack Up and have Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up at the same time.

And their stats will get nerfed no matter what.  Starting at an innate 413/386 for HP and still being able to equip hats,clothes, or whatever we decide to give them, would be ludicrous.  It would be the funniest thing in the world to see a team struggling against a Iron Boots tank Lore Mime, but I'd rather forgo that atrocity. 

[reinoe]

Mimes starting at 413/386+CLOTHES wouldn't even be that bad given their penchant for getting themselves murdered by trying to recreate the "Leeroy Jenkins" video.

Regarding Mimes and their possible fate, I do know FFMASTER has occasional "sneak previews" for what he's doing with 1.39 so you can always stop in and see what's going on.

The +1 bonus to Carabini/Platina armor is done for the sake of balance.  Wizard Robe/Outfit/Power Sleeve grant +2 but also have less HP.  The +2 for those two armors would make Samurai particularly unbalanced.

Still it's always good to bring up ideas because you never know what people are thinking.

[JamesOnyx]

The +1 bonus to Carabini/Platina armor is done for the sake of balance.  Wizard Robe/Outfit/Power Sleeve grant +2 but also have less HP.  The +2 for those two armors would make Samurai particularly unbalanced.

Still it's always good to bring up ideas because you never know what people are thinking.

Oh I know, I never suggested increasing the bonuses to those two armors, that would be ridiculous.

Mimes starting at 413/386+CLOTHES wouldn't even be that bad given their penchant for getting themselves murdered by trying to recreate the "Leeroy Jenkins" video.

That's what Move-1, Move=0, Iron Boots, and possibly even Genji Armor is for.  Stops them right in their tracks.

[Torgo]

Combining Platina and Carabini Mail would definitely be a boon to any Paladins or Samurai that want to get their Elemental on. How that would work in practice I have no idea, but it's always worth keep in mind that while most characters are interested in just PA or MA, anyone using Elemental is most definitely interested in anything that increases both.

[JamesOnyx]

If I recall correctly, I thought someone brought up returning Geomancy skills to 5 Rng, it's still incredibly difficult to increase their damage output, and is situational based on terrain.  If anything, Elemental is probably one the biggest abilities in need of these buffs.  I'm sure another decent armor choice wouldn't hurt none.

I could see an Elemental Samurai working pretty well, it's not that far off from a Black Magic Samurai.

[Torgo]

Yeah, Male Samurai seems best suited if you're looking for a balance of PA and MA (9/9). Actually, taking a quick glance it looks like Samurai is a better base period for Elemental.

[Dokurider]

The thing is, Elemental requires a lot more MA stacking than trying to have an MA/PA balance. Andante's Geomancer unit deals a ton of damage with Elemental because he was able to stack so much MA, something that an Armor class could never do in the first place. A +1 MA/PA would be a bandaid on that issue.

If you want to fill in an armor idea, Genji Armor is still open. I suggested a 135 HP armor with initial: Protect/Shell, which is a decent idea, but I don't think it'll ultimately hold water to the other armors or even Reflect Mail.

[Gaignun]

I don't think you'd use the armor to make a powerhouse Elemental user in the first place.   It would be more of a hybrid thing for male samurai, particularly for boosting attack power and Murasame healing at the same time.  Alternatively, it could be used for book users that use Equip Armor... if book users existed.

[JamesOnyx]

The thing is, Elemental requires a lot more MA stacking than trying to have an MA/PA balance. Andante's Geomancer unit deals a ton of damage with Elemental because he was able to stack so much MA, something that an Armor class could never do in the first place. A +1 MA/PA would be a bandaid on that issue.

It's because of the way the multipliers work for MA correct?  Still, it would be possible to build a decent Female Elemental Samurai with something like this:

spoiler: Female Elemental Samurai

40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0

Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.

If you want to fill in an armor idea, Genji Armor is still open. I suggested a 135 HP armor with initial: Protect/Shell, which is a decent idea, but I don't think it'll ultimately hold water to the other armors or even Reflect Mail.

Personally, I find that version of Genji Armor much more usable than it's current form.  I haven't found one reason to use Genji Armor over Iron Boots or even Move=0.  Give that to a unit with a tone of resistances or defense up and a lot of move, possibly PA/MA Save to make it an even bigger threat... I would be down to testing that. 

[Malroth]

Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   

[Andante49]

spoiler: Female Elemental Samurai

40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0

Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.

She'd have 105 damage elementals and a 189 Chiri. Scary? Yes but, without covering Cursed Ring's weaknesses she's OHKO'd by a 70 faith strengthened magic attack up Blaze Gun not to mention ~80% Consecrations and ~70% Seal Evils.

The best elementals I've come up with are from a 10/16 Bard with magic attack up and 108 gems for 156 (126 for the non-elemental ones).

[Dokurider]

It's because of the way the multipliers work for MA correct?  Still, it would be possible to build a decent Female Elemental Samurai with something like this:

spoiler: Female Elemental Samurai

40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0

Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.

Elemental damage output without combining: 105
Elemental damage output after: 126

Magic Attack Up

Kiyomori

Barbuta (+1 PA/+1 PA/MA)
Wizard Robe
108 Gems

8 PA
15 MA

Elemental Damage Output: 125 or 130

The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not a significant change. Not in DPS and not enough to try to come up with another armor concept for a measly 21 gain in damage for one kind of build. And I wouldn't really call a Cursed unit tanky, not with Raise weakness and no self healing. It just doesn't really help all that much. If we really wanted to increase Elemental's damage output, we would just give it another +2 or +3 to it's constant and it would do exactly the same thing, only more helpful to builds with less than optimal configurations for Elemental

Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   

With a 20 PA Dancer, you will be dealing 60 damage per instance. With two of them going at the same time? 120 per instance. With two mimes? 360 damage per instance. Yeah no.

[Malroth]

thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no HP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round.

Edit
Vs a 70/40 unit wit Unyielding and autopotion that 60 damage per hit will be down to 4 damage per hit after the 44 average healing you get from a 55% autopotion.
I'd even be in favor of subjecting it to PEV  so Abandon monsters can get in on the fun.