FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(I'll be actually concise for once.)

I agree with all of Dokurider's above ideas except the details of Coral Sword, which I have to think more about.

Bow Gun, with Armor Break, is probably going to be hilariously overpowered even if its chance to Armor Break is "only" really 19% as I think Raven did the math for months ago. I'd still be up for trying it for at least an iteration of a version since I've said before I expect 1.39a to be ARENA: Rainbow Edition (or ARENA: Australian Error1 Edition) since a lot of things are going to be rather powerful and new. (So long as nothing is Quickening bad, I'll probably be fine with it.)

Poles as PA*WP makes sense for reasons that Dokurider said as well as additional one. It fixes the "problem" with Ivory Rod and it also gives Oracle incentive use the other MA-based weapons they have, though given how they get Wizard Staff, Wizard Rod, Faith Rod AND Ivory Rod, that might just keep using the +MA weapons. Also, Gokuu Rod and Octagon Rod might need their power reduced, especially the former since its 100% Innocent in hands of suddenly capable units that don't care about Innocent could be...problematic.

Speaking of Bow Gun, are we really fine with Shieldrender being Two-Handable if/when its Shield Break proc works since it essentially becomes "Double Hit: The 16 WP Sword" when the target doesn't have a Shield?

I remember the bug you are talking about now Damned. I remember talking to maybe fdc about it ages ago, and it could be linked to the fact that weapon formulas don't go through the Oil removal routine, which may or may not be tricky to enable for them.

Yeah, I figure it will be tricky even though I don't know about ASM coding since I'm still incompetent at it. I'd like to help, but...just see that tutorial with fdc where I'm asking stupid questions. Not much has changed.

Anyway, I just wanted you to be aware of it given the proposed changes to Oil would be hampered by that since a lot more units would start to live through being Oiled on initial strikes if weaknesses are only 1.5 multipliers.

Giving Bow gun the option to be 2 handed is a cool idea, I think we could run that for this new patch and see where it goes.

I concur, though I'm ultimately ambivalent for reasons I stated above. It would at the very least be a good back-up idea and I wouldn't be against it overriding the current weapon since it's less for you to "fix".

[Dokurider]

Genji Armor: 135 HP, Initial: Protect, Shell

Genji Helmet: Always: Berserk (Just making sure nothing obvious slips past us)

Shieldrender...I got nothing. Fix it, and we'll see the fireworks.

[FFMaster]

SHIELDRENDER CASTS MELLY SKILLS NPNPNP

[Dokurider]

I'll admit it, I just wanna see this stupid thing in action. Once.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, I don't [yet] have a solution for Shieldrender either, partly because everyone's been fixated on Bow Gun working when Shieldrender is potentially just as problematic.)

Amusingly, casting a Divine Knight Skill--if there, you know, was one that corresponded to Shields--wouldn't really have/be that significant a boost outside against people initially wielding shields. Actually, it would probably be a bit of a nerf since this theoretical Divine Knight skill--"Redlobster Crush?"--wouldn't be affected/boosted in damage by Two Hands, so....

But, yeah, like Dokurider, I'm slightly masochistic about this too despite the fact that I suspect Shieldrender will be a "tiny" problem even with the boost to Maintenance. Actually, especially with the boost to Maintenance since then Shieldrender will automatically default to "double-hit since the target doesn't have a shield [that can be rended]". [/crappy Sentinel voice]

Genji Armor: 135 HP, Initial: Protect, Shell

Genji Helmet: Always: Berserk (Just making sure nothing obvious slips past us.)

Speaking of "slipping past", you forgot that people wanted to give it Block: Blind if Salty Rage got Block: Blind as well, apparently.

As for Genji Armor, I'm guessing that means it doesn't have the MP anymore? Regardless, I like that one better than "gimmick Iron Boots filler armor" if Raven's thing to by-pass the Item Attributes actually works (flawlessly).

[FFMaster]

1) It's my hack, not Ravens. Raven I'm pretty sure knows nothing about ASM hacking.

2) From all the tests I've done, they work perfectly.

3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.

[Gaignun]

Monk changes:

Old Punch Art with new formulae
Monk with 70 Brave, 18 PA, Martial Arts
Repeating Fist: 212~297
Wave Fist: 191~267
Earth Slash: 170~238

New Punch Art with new formulae
Monk with 70 Brave, 17 PA, Martial Arts, 108 Gems
Repeating Fist Clay Fist: 244~341
Wave Fist Gale Fist: 219~307
Earth Slash Wave Palm: 195~273
Average damage boost: 30~50.

Take home message: Non-elemental Punch Art damage is shit.  Optimised Thieves push 250~340.  Optimised Ninja push 300~420.  Optimised Samurai push 320~440.  The 30~50 damage boost is modest, especially after considering that it is now susceptible to Thief Hat, Vanish Mantle, et cetera.

Elemental Punch Art provides an opportunity to build teams around PA-based absorption .  Previously, the only PA-based absorption is Ninjutsu, which is underwhelming compared to Black Magick and Draw Out.

On an related note, I'd like to bring the discussion back to Thief Hat before it was sidetracked by crap concerning Heaven's Cloud.  My idea is to transfer Thief Hat's water resistance to Green Beret to put an end to the hurr-durr Thief Hat - Black Costume combination.  Comments?  Complaints?  Insults?  Slander?  Places where I should stick it?

[The Damned]

(Must resist urge to indulge in calumny and lies.)

I've already personally said that I think the Green Beret thing is a good idea, but I'll say again considering you're asking again and FFMaster is back now.

Admittedly, I'm still not sure if I "agree" with the way the elements were reshifted given all the "crap concerning" Heaven's Cloud, but I still need to decide what I ultimately think about said "crap".

1) It's my hack, not Ravens. Raven I'm pretty sure knows nothing about ASM hacking.

2) From all the tests I've done, they work perfectly.

3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.

1. I see. Apologies. I guess you just asked Raven to make the interface or something, which is why I got confused.

2. That is quite good to now.

3. Understood. Would you be fine with making Salty Rage "Always: Berserk; Immune: Blind" though? Because that thing is still horrible right now and it's only going to get worse if it's kept Initial while Berserk finally becomes finite (if that's [easily] possible).

I'll try to think of something else give Genji Helmet now that we have (a lot?) more room for Item Attributes.

[FFMaster]

There is *ALMOST* enough attribute space for each item. I think I'm about 10 short.

[Dokurider]

How many attribute spaces are we about to use?

3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.

Genji Helmet doesn't have to do something fancy. Immune: Blind and possibly Charm?

Shieldrender could either lose the Shield Break proc to gain Always: Transparent, Wind Elemental (Hidden Knife regains +1 Speed but lose Transparent. Say what you want about Ninjas, but having a Speed attribute weapon is pretty crucial: I'd sooner see Transparent disappear  then Speed + 1) or gains +1 Range, Wind Elemental.

spoiler

Look ma, Invisible Air: Barrier of the Wind King

I think maybe Coral Sword is okay for now because it might find new life aiding Punch Art.

[The Damned]

(Wait, Gaignun. Is your version of Stone Gun still devoid of Initial: Petrify? Or is it meant to still have that and be Forced Two Hands, like what I think people actually meant?

Also, you missed giving Throwing Knife a slight WP boost.)

By my calculations, you'll be dead in seconds FFMaster actually isn't dipping too far beyond the current Item Attribute range at all yet, at least with what's been actually agreed upon on so far. We're only over by one and that's because of Sprint Shoes getting Immune: Slow (as it should) in addition to Speed +1. Provided we end up doing something like that Eldritch Staff idea and that Genji Helm(et) gets Block: Blind, then we'd only be over by three.

...Of course, there's still about three dozen things we haven't "officially" agreed with or even talked about item-wise:


1. Mage Masher.
2. Hidden Knife (since you're bringing it back up and I too still dislike Always: Transparent, though its current proposal is way more fair than it has ever been).
3. Iga Knife & Koga Knife (relative to the change of Aspergillium into Desert Rose).
4. Phoenix Blade.
5. Tactician's Blade?
6. Shieldrender.
7. Coral Sword (and Ice Brand? I mean, if we're talking about Swords with crappy/unfitting procs....)
8. Lionheart (& Rune Blade? That's a P-EV thing though, not an Item Attribute thing).
9. Heaven's Cloud & Masamune the katana (and maybe Koutetsu Knife too).
10. All Staves aside from Gold Staff and Mace of Zeus.
11. Desert Rose itself (though I guess I'm personally fine with this now).
12. Bow Gun (technically--so far only FFMaster, Dokurider and I have agreed on it becoming Two-Hand-able rather than "Lulz, Armor Break").
13. The (new) elemental Spears (though I was pretty sure we had agreed on these and they're not related to Item Attributes anyway).
14. All Poles.
15. All Cloths.
16. The possible addition of a new healing weapon (that would either combine with H Bag or P Bag or completely replace Mythril Gun, which would "merge" with Romanda Gun or...something).
16. Crystal Shield.
17. Thief Hat & Green Beret (again, I'm personally fine with Green Beret "stealing" Half: Water from Thief Hat, though would require another Item Attribute space, which we have now).
18. Genji Helmet (in actuality).


As you can see, most of that is weapon stuff, which means that fortunately we've actually mostly easily agreed about what armor and accessories should be becoming. [/uncharacteristic optimism]

Speaking of armor and accessories (and, I guess, shields), I'll probably try to count up that stuff by tomorrow, if only because of how I pissed I am discover to something when I was editing Jot5 videos earlier today.

There is *ALMOST* enough attribute space for each item. I think I'm about 10 short.

I see. That is quite a marked boost.

Out of my usual, nosy curiosity, where are you getting (this much) space from (again)?

Genji Helmet doesn't have to do something fancy. Immune: Blind and possibly Charm?

Yes, Genji Helmet [or Cross Helm] blocking Blind and only Blind was the only useful thing I could think of, partly because I kept coming back to how "Cross Helmet" is really Close(d) Helmet, as in it guards you face. It really shouldn't block Charm, though, especially it would already "have" to lower end HP maybe just because of how powerful Grand Cross already is, especially if Excalibur, for some reason, is getting a boost since that would be the weapon that single-handedly benefits the most from this Helm.

Shieldrender could either lose the Shield Break proc to gain Always: Transparent, Wind Elemental (Hidden Knife regains +1 Speed but lose Transparent. Say what you want about Ninjas, but having a Speed attribute weapon is pretty crucial: I'd sooner see Transparent disappear  then Speed + 1) or gains +1 Range, Wind Elemental.

As said above, I also agree about Hidden Knife, though I've said that from the beginning that no weapon needs Always: Transparent. While the gun's 100% accuracy is...annoying, that's at least what they do and they're all countered by Projectile Guard.

I'd think that Shieldrender becoming Wind elemental would potentially be great. It getting +1 Move and Wind elemental would just make it either redundant to or obviate Air Knife, which is bad; it's also a bad thing to give Tactician's Blade more competition if so few people are using it currently already. (Just like how I'm hesitant to strengthen Lionheart, even a bit, because of literally no one using Platinum Sword.)

I think maybe Coral Sword is okay for now because it might find new life aiding Punch Art.

Shrug. Maybe.

It could still probably use a better proc though.


Agreed EDIT: Ugh. I kept leaving the "d" off of agree because I ended up making a phone call before I could really proofread. Also made some other omissions that are fixed now.

[Dokurider]

(Wait, Gaignun. Is your version of Stone Gun still devoid of Initial: Petrify? Or is it meant to still have that and be Forced Two Hands, like what I think people actually meant?

I'm pretty sure that Stone Gun will just go back to having Initial: Petrify if the Speed - 1 isn't going to be added. I wouldn't mind Forced Two Hands though.

Also, you missed giving Throwing Knife a slight WP boost.)

He (and myself) thought that Throwing Knife doesn't need a WP boost because it's not a DPS weapon and doesn't really need the boost.

Cross Helmet doesn't need to block Blind because Grand Crossers already have enough options to block Blind through Angel Ring and Diamond Armor. Giving them MP and Blind protection is just making their job too easy.

As said above, I also agree about Hidden Knife, though I've said that from the beginning that no weapon needs Always: Transparent. While the gun's 100% accuracy is...annoying, that's at least what they do and they're all countered by Projectile Guard.

I'd think that Shieldrender becoming Wind elemental would potentially be great. It getting +1 Move and Wind elemental would just make it either redundant to or obviate Air Knife, which is bad; it's also a bad thing to give Tactician's Blade more competition if so few people are using it currently already.

You seem to misunderstand my other alternative. It's not Move + 1, it's Range + 1, as in giving it Spear/Pole Range.
inb4 but that's should be masamune

(Just like how I'm hesitant to strengthen Lionheart, even a bit, because of literally no one using Platinum Sword.)

Nothing wrong with Platina Sword in the slightest. Given Two Hands/Swords, it's one of the strongest weapons in the game period. It's just too bad it's losing to Katar. Katar isn't strictly better thanks to it's damage formula, but thanks to it's Move + 1, it's good enough for Thieves.

More Coral Sword

If one really need a decent proc on Coral Sword, then how about...100% Knockback?

Why are we wanting to change one of the Ninjutsu to an Earth elemental again? There are a lot of anti Earth equipment out there.

[The Damned]

(Ask Gaignun about the Doton thing. I still have no idea why myself, especially since there's also an abundance of Earth techniques. I vaguely remember the switch being to get away from Thief Hat, but now that Thief Hat would be keeping Half: Earth & Half: Wind and yet not Half: Water if that goes to Green Beret....)

Back to not quoting things, because I can.


1. Stone Gun and Forced Two Hands: Yes, I figured as much as well. I just want to be sure since some people were originally talking about getting rid of Initial: Petrify and all the other equipment that's actually getting changed still has the original stats that aren't getting changed present as well.


2. Throwing Knife not getting WP: Okay, I guess. It's not one of the bigger or even moderate issues to me. I just remember some people complaining about its damage, especially since the A.I. is kinda dumb about ignoring units with Doom even if they're actively a threat still.


3. ShieldAir(r)ender and Range +1: ...Oh. I see. It's like a sword idea for my own patch, actually, only that was Water elemental. Having a Sword with 2 Range sounds really good actually, especially since it wouldn't be stepping any Spears or Poles. I (would) support that.


4. Close/Cross Helm and Genji Helm: Speaking of misunderstandings, you misunderstood me. I was saying I agree that Genji Helm would be good, great even, with just the simple idea of Immune: Blind. I then went on to mention, however, that if we were going by names, then since Cross Helm is supposed to be Close(d) Helm, then that should be the one to be Immune: Blind. I just didn't specify that I just thought that meant they should switch. As in, "Cross" Helm gets Immune: Blind while Genji Helm gets the current buffs planned for Cross Helm, meaning that Genji Helm becomes the only helm with MP. I didn't think I need to, but considering how much I tend to ramble and deviate, the confusion on your end is probably my fault.


5. 100% Knockback: I can't really support this since I've come to learn that a) 100% Knockback is kinda wonky as it is and b) the A.I. is rather rubbish at using it in most instances. It also wouldn't work against water tiles and it might accidentally kill units that the attacker is trying to heal since I'm pretty sure that weapon procs are on the list of the many things that the A.I. is blind to.

[Gaignun]

Yeah, the Stone Gun has Init: Petrify again.  I forgot to add it.

The Desert Rose/Doton thing was made for the sake of homogeneity.  With Titan (and potentially Clay Fist) becoming earth-elemental EV-ignoring skills, I felt that Ninjutsu should follow suit by having its soon-to-be-unevadable Suiton turn into Doton.  Turning Aspergillum into Desert Rose was a natural follow-up, given that Ninja has no more water skills.

You're right about there being many more earth skills than water skills, though, so I don't mind if Suiton stays as Suiton in spite of what I just said.

[The Damned]

(*is annoyed at self between getting distracted by a game, then breezing through 40,000+ words of something and then realizing he forgot to something in the meantime*)

With regards to Stone Gun, I see. Good.

As for the Desert Rose thing, I'd actually support it now if, as I said on the last page already, the Koga Knife becomes Water elemental to compensate; Iga Knife would Strengthen Water instead of Earth. I think that would be for the best anyway since I can't really remember why Fire and Earth were chosen as the elements (to be strengthened) on those swords even with Flails already obvious corresponding to things; I know Raven's old reasons are around here still, but I'm too lazy look write now between being up all night like always and having to leave soon.

Of course, I said, even with the change to Thief Hat, with the switch-over to Doton, Thief Hat and Black Costume would still "wall" Ninja, especially with the needed nerf to Oil (and the boost to Maintenance). So....

For the record though, I'm all for Earth being the "unavoidable element" considering it's the only element that to deal with a Status and, because of said status, a Movement that completely negates it (outside of physical weapon strikes).

Nothing wrong with Platina Sword in the slightest. Given Two Hands/Swords, it's one of the strongest weapons in the game period. It's just too bad it's losing to Katar. Katar isn't strictly better thanks to it's damage formula, but thanks to it's Move + 1, it's good enough for Thieves.

I forgot to respond to this.

I'm not saying that Platinum Sword sucks horribly or anything like said of some things. Something can be good and still not be able to compete, i.e. the two other Harps compared to the current Bloody Strings.

Platinum Sword may be good, but right now it's only "on paper" since literally no one is using it or has ever even attempted to use it to my recollection. You know what's also had excellent damage at paper but hasn't ever been actually practical? Dual Rods.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether it's more or less telling that Platinum Swords haven't been used or worked compared to those things considering Platinum Swords are melee classes while Dual Rods. However, I also know that we're not doing that sword any favors by boosting its competition of Lionheart while giving it more competition in Slasher and Katar & other competitors to it still existing.

So you'll excuse me if I remain skeptical until someone actually, you know, uses it and gets somewhere.

*looks at upcoming tournament*

[Dokurider]

I think Wind should gain a Head item that strengthens it. This is what I meant earlier on when I said "make Wind more like Holy" but I didn't elaborate on it because I decided I needed to to consider what I was going to say. Originally, I was going to suggest making it a hat attribute, maybe give it to Green Beret. The only problem is that this makes Air Knife really OP because it frees up Air Knife Thief's accessory and that's all kinds of bad. So instead, make it a Helmet attribute. That way, it powers up Heaven's Cloud (Draw Out and Katana) without unbalancing Air Knife and Windslash Bow (to a lesser extent). It would also help Shieldrender (if people like the idea of making it Wind Elemental), and whatever the Wind Elemental Punch Art skill's going to be when used by Armored Classes..

"Why do this for the sake of two, possibly three weapons and two skills (and maybe Tornado if you like running it on Samurai)?" you're asking. Compare that to Holy Elemental's coverage of three skills and two weapons, it's actually even. Even Dark only has 7 skills to be boosted, maybe 8 if you're counting Death.

As for what Helmet should get Strengthen: Wind, I think Mythril Helmet would be a fine candidate. Of course, if it absolutely has to be a hat, make it Flash Hat.

[Torgo]

Platinum Sword may be good, but right now it's only "paper" since literally no one is using it or has ever even attempted to use it to my recollection.

Is that so.

I'm probably the least qualified person to do it, but I am going to do it. I can always dig on trying to figure out how to make use of underused or underappreciated stuff.

[reinoe]

If you insist on using something underused or underappreciated you can create a unit with Black Magic secondary.  I don't think anyone has done that.

[The Damned]

(Ugh, it's so annoying to notice an omission or typo even after you proofread yet only after someone else quotes you. At least it was only minor this time, but it still...rankles me.)

I'm pretty sure people have used Black Magick Secondary, if only in the SSC tournament where I'm sure both Celdia and Vigilanti's teams used it for Death. I'm pretty sure people have used it before and after that though even if, yeah, it's still not that common, which I guess is why you also added "underappreciated".

Speaking of "underappreciated", I'll try to do that count up of other equipment by the end of today at least given I'm not going anywhere.

I think Wind should gain a Head item that strengthens it. This is what I meant earlier on when I said "make Wind more like Holy" but I didn't elaborate on it because I decided I needed to to consider what I was going to say. Originally, I was going to suggest making it a hat attribute, maybe give it to Green Beret. The only problem is that this makes Air Knife really OP because it frees up Air Knife Thief's accessory and that's all kinds of bad. So instead, make it a Helmet attribute. *snip*

Oh, I see. I guess I could get behind that, but it would definitely have to a) be on a Helmet rather than a Hat for reasons of Air Knife and, to a far less degree, Windslash Bow and b) not be on Mythril Helmet since no other piece of armor both strengthens elements and blocks status.

Why not have Strengthen Wind on the new Genji Helmet, actually? In fact, why not have the new Genji Helmet Strengthen: Wind & Earth at least (since both are presumably still going to be halved by Thief Hat) and maybe even Water (since Green Beret presumably is getting Halve: Water)? After all, strengthening something, while strong, still pales in comparison to halving it (unless Oil rears its hideous head).

(Of course, giving it strengthen Water would probably also be "bad" considering then female Samurai with Whale Whiskers would suddenly have free accessory slots. This when they are already hitting for like 400~ damage with the current max damage set-ups.)

Meanwhile, if we're implicitly talking about improving Mythril Helmet, then that could really stand to lose Immune(l): Slow anyway given it's been redundant to Platina Helmet like...forever. This especially with how much Time Mage & its Time Magick has sucked and how no one is using Ice Bow or either Heaven's Cloud anyway. Instead, what about giving Mythril Helmet "Immune: Stop & Blind"?

Regardless of what we do, this would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out if we were sure about the fate of Heaven's Cloud as a whole since even with strengthen both form of it are still probably going to suck in presently--more so the ability than the katana. The same goes for not having figured out what's happening with Crystal Shield, the whole "elemental neutralizer" aspect of it & Rainbow Staff and some other (Wind, Earth and Water element) abilities & weapons; oh, and if Cursed Ring is going to get some elemental shuffling alongside losing +Sp 1.

(Actually, I just realized something: With the possible changes to reduce Oil's damage, isn't the elemental neutralizer aspect now going to be impossible [FFMaster]?)

Is that so.

I'm probably the least qualified person to do it, but I am going to do it. I can always dig on trying to figure out how to make use of underused or underappreciated stuff.

Hey, go for broke, Bayonetta. Otherwise, no one else is probably going to use Platinum Sword anytime soon, if ever.

[Dokurider]

Why not have Strengthen Wind on the new Genji Helmet, actually? In fact, why not have the new Genji Helmet Strengthen: Wind & Earth at least (since both are presumably still going to be halved by Thief Hat) and maybe even Water (since Green Beret presumably is getting Halve: Water)? After all, strengthening something, while strong, still pales in comparison to halving it (unless Oil rears its hideous head).

(Of course, giving it strengthen Water would probably also be "bad" considering then female Samurai with Whale Whiskers would suddenly have free accessory slots. This when they are already hitting for like 400~ damage with the current max damage set-ups.)

Yeah Whale Samurai with open accessory slots are bad news, but more importantly, Water doesn't need the help so much anymore. Coral Sword just needs some help taking off. Said helmet also doesn't need to carry Strengthen: Earth either. In addition to making Kikuichimonji (katana, but both really) really powerful. Plus Earth Clothes are phenomenal for Earth. Only Wind warrants this treatment.

Meanwhile, if we're implicitly talking about improving Mythril Helmet, then that could really stand to lose Immune(l): Slow anyway given it's been redundant to Platina Helmet like...forever. This especially with how much Time Mage & its Time Magick has sucked and how no one is using Ice Bow or either Heaven's Cloud anyway. Instead, what about giving Mythril Helmet "Immune: Stop & Blind"?

I don't mind Cancel: Stop, Blind in the slightest. I approve. Anyways, tell us when you're done playing Shell Games with our helmets for the sake making sure the little item graphics make sense with the attributes.

Regardless of what we do, this would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out if we were sure about the fate of Heaven's Cloud as a whole since even with strengthen both form of it are still probably going to suck in presently--more so the ability than the katana. The same goes for not having figured out what's happening with Crystal Shield, the whole "elemental neutralizer" aspect of it & Rainbow Staff and some other (Wind, Earth and Water element) abilities & weapons; oh, and if Cursed Ring is going to get some elemental shuffling alongside losing +Sp 1.

I'm not really sure who else you need to speak up for you to call majority, there's only like, three or four people participating in this thread right now. Cursed Ring losing it's Holy immunity and +1 Speed, and nothing else, was considered a good idea by everyone. Too bad I've lost track of what the fuck happened with Heaven's Cloud. Just drop it's Add: Slow proc so it can be readily absorbed and call it a day if nothing else can be agreed on. Giving Crystal Shield statuses protection sounds like the only viable option at this point other than just sending it to the graveyard with Escutcheon I.