FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Dokurider]

I'd rather +1 WP for Excalibur thank you very much.

[Barren]

Well with the tournament coming up, we'll decide once and for all what needs to be changed for 1.39

[Dokurider]

If Speed - 1 is going to be an Item Attribute, then I think it should also be added to Phoenix Blade. I think Phoenix Blade is too effective at burning turns. It basically locks down an enemy for free, for the duration of the battle. With Speed-1, enemies can't get locked down indefinitely anymore.

[Gaignun]

Concerning giving Excalibur Haste, Paladins are typically as slow as snails, so the buff would allow them to keep pace with the other classes.  Bear in mind that Paladins do not have native access to Thief Hat or Secret Clothes, so Excalibur will not add more than 2 SP.  On top of that, the Paladin will not be able to be Hasted by skills for additional speed, as Haste will already be applied.

Excalibur would become an amazing weapon, to be sure, so we could dial back a few of its other features to compensate, as we are with Save the Queen and Ragnarok.

Simply adding 1 WP is fine, too.

[Dokurider]

That sounds reasonable until Equip Heavy Blade comes into the picture. Now you have 12 Speed Thieves running around perma hasted to 15 speed. Generally speaking, no item should be allowed to boost speed by more than 2 speed.

Another idea: Give Masamune (the katana) initial: Regen. That way, you can put in on a unit and your team Masamune (the draw out) user won't waste the first turns giving you Masamune.

[Gaignun]

Equip Heavy Blade gives access to Knight Swords?  I didn't notice.  In that case... Yeah, Always: Haste is not a good idea.

[The Damned]

(Yeah. Equip Heavy Blade has given access to Knight['s] Swords for...a while, like since almost the beginning of ARENA if not the very beginning.)

Well, with that taken care of and my Internet back, I might as well comment on what's been typed since I've been gone even though it's thankfully not as much as I expected. I'll just go backwards since that's easier for me.


1. Boosting Excalibur: Not sure why it really needs a boost since it's always been the best Knight('s) Sword, even after it got nerfed from its absurd initial Absorb incarnation and even after Chaos Blade got buffed twice-over. That said, if people do think it needs a buff, which even with the buffs to the other Knight Swords, I don't think it does, then yeah, +1 WP is the "sane" option. Giving it Always: Haste, as much as it's nice to reference T. G. Cid, is just begging for trouble even before Equip Heavy Blade. Excalibur already strengthens itself still and works with Grand Cross, while Defender, even with its boost, still won't, so...uh, yeah. I think Excalibur will be fine staying as it is going into 1.39 even with the three other Knight Swords becoming usable.

That may just be me though.


2. Boosting Masamune the katana: I actually wouldn't mind that. The only reason I didn't suggest that from the get-go when I made those Katana designs was because I felt Masamune the ability was too powerful--I still do--& could stand to "waste time" even with Masamune the katana equipped; I guess I also thought it felt redundant given how whored out Masamune was and is.

That said, with Dispel getting buffed, Quickening's death making Masamune (like many things) less stupid, Cursed Ring being slightly nerfed and, among other things, an anti-Masamune skill being made up, the Katana would probably be fine with getting Initial: Regen in addition to what it was given in 1.38. It's not like anyone is really using that katana right now, though it has at least seen some use and Katanas lack of use (to Attack) in general is more because Draw Out is just so damn strong that Samurai tend not physically attack, so....

Ultimately, I'm pretty ambivalent here.


3. Kibaku Fuda's damage formula being SP*((PA+Y)/2): Yes, this seem for the best if it's easily possible, which from what little I know of coding, it "should" be. At least half a dozen people now for sure though. Regardless, I've never been a fan of the simple "Stat*X" formulas since those are far more difficult to balance in cases of damage--Hawk's Eye and Draw Out are examples of this. Similarly, if we really want Masamune the ability to stop running so rampant (for at least a while), then the only thing Kibaku Fuda needs to be dependent on to work is MP. Using WP in place of PA in the above formula automatically means two things: Monks basically can't use it without using an Equip [Weapon] Support and that it's vulnerable to Weapon Break since its damage becomes piss-poor without a weapon.


4. Misogi costing 0 MP: Yeah, I'd actually probably be fine with this since Heal and Stigma Magic don't cost MP and Misogi can only hit the self and thus not heal anything "serious". I'd still want Misogi to cost 100 JP though. (Mushin can stay costing a mere 5 MP just because Innocent is the best defense against faith-based magick AND it's instant; it also helps that I don't think it's as limited as Gaignun said even if, yes, the AI probably isn't going to use it freely.)


5. Changing current Spellbreaker: I'm still of the opinion that current Spellbreaker isn't actually bad or anything. This especially since it's both unavoidable and guaranteed both to do damage and to remove the positive statuses it removes despite what the Master Guide says. I will of course admit that with its present formula, it doesn't really belong in Thief considering Thief has piss-poor MA.

Still, I'm not sure what to change it to and while Dokurider's alternative is somewhat intriguing, I actually think that Spellbreaker can win "a war" with Masamune the ability as it is now because it does damage. It's merely that on an actual Thief, it won't ever do good enough damage to justify since even with the most MA stacked gear....

*does the mental calculations*

Hmmm...actually, on a female Thief, with Rune Blade, Holy Miter, Wizard Outfit, Magic Gauntlet and Magic Attack UP, Spellbreaker gets to around 160 damage, which is better than expected, especially for something unavoidable. Still, it could probably be improved in terms of overall formula making it easier for Thief to use, given they'll still have crap MP. This even though I still say a complete overhaul probably isn't needed.


6. Focus's Animation: As far as I know, the plan for it was just to use the exact same animation as Accumulate. I suppose I wouldn't be against giving it Quickening's animation since nothing is likely to use it save maybe one of Ninja's new techniques. This even if having been forced to see Quickening's animation so much this past year has been...irksome.


7. Crystal Shield & Initial: Reflect: ...Yeah, I'm not sure this is "the answer". This even though Dokurider's example about Cursed Ring already exists because of Reflect Mail. I "think" what was suggested earlier about making it a Shield immune to some statuses is ultimately the best. This especially since the only other thing I can think of that isn't out there or overpowered is making it an Earth, Wind and Water version of Kaiser Plate, which seems as if it would be both boring and ineffectual. That, I'm willing to consider a "Mirror Shield" at least.


8. Blind & Silence sticking around after death: That might be okay for Blind, since that still allows the user to at least attack, but Silence's issue is that it utterly shuts down six certain skill sets. While Blind is actually a pain in the ass now even without evasive gear coming into play, it still allows the A.I. to at least attack; this even if that's arguably the problem with the A.I. tending not to heal Blind in the first place. Of course, Silence is the most blocked status in all of ARENA, so....

Regardless, I'm assuming you're suggesting this in accordance with the suggestion of making Blind and Silence have a finite CT alongside Berserk in the first place, correct? Otherwise, Blind and Silence with infinite CT lasting after death is...yeah, no.


9. Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP: Yeah. This needs to happen.


10. Tier 1 Black Magic vs. Tier 2 Black Magic: I'd be up for lowering Tier 1 slightly rather than buffing Tier 2 since I think Tier 1 does too much damage as it is even before comparing it to Tier 2, especially since Fire and Bolt are a bit...absurd in their procs on top of their potential damage. (I'm not kvetching about Bolt [1] adding Don't Act when I did it for Kagesougi since Kagesougi is instant, Kagesougi adds status at 100%, Kagesougi on average hits harder, Kagesougi costs less MP, Kagesougi usually hits twice right away and Bolt [1] having Don't Act somewhat backfires for Lightning absorb teams; Bolt [1] can also backfire in terms of redirects as well.)


Current Rods are probably fine for reasons Dokurider already pointed out. The closest teams have come to having successful dual-wielding Rod users have been through Scholars, which are dying in terms of their Wizard+ stats, and Wizards, who are the second "squishiest" class in all of ARENA. They can do absurd damage via Two Swords, but actually getting close enough to do so without dying or getting knocked into Critical and hitting the target without Concentrate makes it far deadlier on paper than in reality.

I'm still not sure about Heaven's Cloud, mostly because of the "Tornado would be the only absorb-able MA-based Wind element technique if it becomes enemy-only" and because no one else offered any ideas while I was gone. Shrug.

If Speed - 1 is going to be an Item Attribute, then I think it should also be added to Phoenix Blade. I think Phoenix Blade is too effective at burning turns. It basically locks down an enemy for free, for the duration of the battle. With Speed-1, enemies can't get locked down indefinitely anymore.

Would Speed -1 be in addition to Always: Slow? I'm guessing it would, but I'm really not thinking it would change much since, even with Quickening dying, Sprint Shoes automatically cancels that and Cheer Song cancels that out on the first try.

I wouldn't personally mind it, though, given my dislike of Phoenix Blade.

[Gaignun]

3. Kibaku Fuda's damage formula being SP*((PA+Y)/2): ... Using WP in place of PA in the above formula automatically means two things: Monks basically can't use it without using an Equip [Weapon] Support and that it's vulnerable to Weapon Break since its damage becomes piss-poor without a weapon.

You're right, but, on the other hand, replacing PA with WP enables non-melee classes to use it well.  It also promotes the use of high-WP weapons that see little use, such as Tactician's Blade, Iron Fan, Monster Dict, and Blaze Gun.

4. Misogi costing 0 MP: Yeah, I'd actually probably be fine with this since Heal and Stigma Magic don't cost MP and Misogi can only hit the self and thus not heal anything "serious".

That's a good point.  I'll drop the MP to 0.

10. Tier 1 Black Magic vs. Tier 2 Black Magic: I'd be up for lowering Tier 1 slightly rather than buffing Tier 2 since I think Tier 1 does too much damage as it is even before comparing it to Tier 2, especially since Fire and Bolt are a bit...absurd in their procs on top of their potential damage.

I'm kind of hesitant about nerfing Wizards, though, given that we finally made them useable for the first time.  They're our glass cannons!


Finally, concerning Thief's Hat, I agree that one of its elemental resistances should be transferred to a different piece of armor.  The element that gets transferred will be indirectly buffed.  Here's a summary of the relevant weapons and skills:

Wind
Weapons: Air Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Spiked Futon, Windslash Bow
Skills: Gale Fist, Silf, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado

Water
Weapons: Coral Sword, Whale Whisker
Skills: Wave Palm, Water (magick), Leviathan, Maelstrom

Earth
Weapons: Koga Knife, Kikuichimoji, Giant Axe, earth-elemental flail
Skills: Clay Fist, Titan, Kikuichimoji, Doton, Earth Dragon, Quake

Heaven's Cloud really needs a buff, since it competes with Kotetsu and Chirijiraden, but the water element (especially Coral Sword and Leviathan) needs a buff as well.  At the same time, I really don't want to buff Air Knife, Fuuton, and Tornado.  Thus, I vote that Thief Hat gives up its water resistance.  If we want to buff Heaven's Cloud while we're at it, we could make it water elemental (after all, clouds are... water... vapour).

As for what the resistance is transferred to, I want to say Secret Clothes, but that will over-represent water resistance in the armour category.  The only other real option is Green Beret, which I'm actually cool with, since Green Beret is losing its place as MP-boosting headgear to Black Hood.  This way, we create new efficient hat-armour combinations:

Thief Hat + [Black Costume, Rubber Costume]
Green Beret + [Black Costume, Santa Outfit]

[CT5Holy]

Wizards and Black Magic in general is pretty awesome now; a nerf seems unwarranted to me.

Also, Damned, a few points to note:
1. Bolt 1 procs Don't Move, not Don't Act.
2. Excalibur has not been the best Knight Sword in a looooong time (since it lost Absorb: Holy). I think it might be the worst, honestly. Defender's high WP and DA immunity makes it better, Ragnarok/Save the Queen's Initial: Protect or Shell, combined with almost the same damage output make them better, and Chaos Blade's high WP+Dispel on hit I think also makes it better than Excalibur. Excalibur does have the best damage output, but it's not by enough to make Excalibur outclass the other Knight Swords.

Oh, I had this idea a while back and don't remember if I posted it or not, but what do people think of making Coral Sword proc Suiton instead of Water Ball?

[The Damned]

(Ugh. I feel like I'm forgetting something I was going to say a week ago before my Internet went out. Meh. Probably nothing important [as per usual].)

So noted about Bolt 1. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Also, Excalibur being the best at damage output kinda makes it the best for me, especially given I didn't say it outright outclassed the other Knight('s) Swords anymore and given that it still definitely see the most use of the Knight Sword.

I'll have to think about Coral Sword, though that would doubtless be a buff.

Anyway, my reply this time should be much shorter. Well, "shorter" for me:


1. Kibaku Fuda's formula: Meh. I guess Monk missing out if WP was concerned wouldn't be too terrible. That said, I'm not really convinced, not just because half of your particular examples are "bad" ones since Blaze Gun and Tactician's Blade see a decent amount of use, even if the latter case is less for actually attacking with it and more for "Go Go Gadget Chirijiraden". Hell, I'd even argue that Monster Dict is perfectly usable for its WP already given my Plastic Knight team used that for Southern Cross; it's just that its proc, Magic Ruin, kinda sucks even for free, at least compared to what the other books proc and especially with having a similar rate to them. Iron Fan's the only really problematic one and that has issues because a) two of the other Poles can do way more damage when Two-Handed, especially Whale Whisker, b) the other two Poles have extremely good procs and c) the MA-boosting Pole, which is the one mages would be concerned with, is also one of the ones that can be used with Two Hands.

Regardless of what high-WP weapons actually see how much use, I'm not really sure trying to make it so that Kibaku Fuda is usable by mages will really work anyway. I mean, I can understand the notation of accessibility, especially since making it so that only one class misses out while six--well, three, really--don't, but that kinda misses a key point: Mages have little reason to ever want to use Ninjutsu secondary anyway.

When you think about, even as a "debuffing" class, Ninjutsu is solely PA driven (as it "should" be, at least in ARENA). As referenced above, three of the mages classes, Wizard, Time Mage and especially Summoner, have abysmal PA. So they automatically have very little use for Ninjutsu as Secondary. This issue of incompatibility increases when you realize about half of Ninjutsu is powered by a lack of Faith, when all mages but Wizard (and, technically, Time Mages due to only Comet) need Faith; given the fact that we just established Wizards (& Time Mages) are horrible users of Ninjutsu...yeah. Furthermore, of the three new techniques being given to Ninjutsu, only one, Misogi, is guaranteed beneficial to mages and Misogi removes Faith, which means no using it with Faith Rod. Even the new Movement for Ninja, Speed +1, is something that tends to cause mage spells to backfire without specific set-ups.

So trying to make sure (three) mage classes can maybe use Kibaku Fuda, while admirable, seems ultimately pointless, especially when Dispel is being buffed to also be an AoE 1 ability. As such, I have to still support the PA-base formula that CT5Holy suggested at present.


2. Nerfing Tier 1 Black Magic: Meh. I can understand you reacting with hesitance given that Wizards or Black Magic still haven't exactly "taken off" despite all they got going into 1.38. You have to consider (further), however, that they're already getting a lot of buffs going into 1.39 merely by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying, the spellguns no longer going by Faith and Flare getting buffed. Then people agreed rather quickly that Death needed some type of buff, which it's now "definitely" getting in the form of going by Un-Brave and, in a way, Frog is getting buffed as well by becoming more accurate even if it will cost more MP. It wouldn't surprise me if people still wanted to see Poison buffed since it doesn't seem to be switching classes as I would personally want given that I think the key issue with Poison is that it's on the wrong class (unless "we" are doing that MP Poison & MP Regen thing).

So Wizards can probably stand to take slight nerfs to easy access nukes, especially ones that you just admitted were a problem and especially as long as Fire can still cause Oil and Bolt can still cause Don't Act.


3. Heaven's Cloud...is made of Water: I can admit that I see quite a bit of potential merit to this, especially when it comes to Green Beret and Thief Hat. That said, I don't think Leviathan is bad as you say. Again, I'd say the problem lies more with Salamander being able to proc Oil, really, at least or perhaps especially with what present Oil can do. Additionally, I don't think people ever really agreed about the Monk element thing (or Earth-flail for that matter), at least yet.

Most importantly, though, just switching Heaven's Cloud over to Water element doesn't really do anything to make the ability itself any less crappy; it just gives Water a new ability to play with, sort of, while Wind gets screwed over and permanently loses one regardless of how Monk turns out. Heaven's Cloud would still have the problem of Slowing down its allies if it's not enemy-only and if it's enemy-only, then it's not really like Water is getting another thing to play with, at least in terms of absorption; you were perhaps not talking about that considering you mentioned Leviathan, which can't be absorbed by the team using it outside of Counter Magic. I guess Fire element benefits with Asura becoming not enemy-only, but, again, "meh".

Furthermore, that raises the issue of if Heaven's Cloud the katana should remain Wind element even though Heaven's Cloud the ability becomes Water. If not, then Wind loses a weapon as well as an ability, though it could better afford to lose a weapon even if Grand Cross with current Heaven's Cloud is the easiest Wind Grand Cross for Paladin to access.


Shrug. I have a "solution" to the Katana thing if people support switch Heaven's cloud the ability to Water and want to switch the Katana as well. Right now I still am uncomfortable with Wind getting screwing over, however, almost to the point of becoming like how Water was for the longest time. This especially since I, and apparently others, can't think of a solution to that problem (yet).

[Gaignun]

I don't understand how the wind element is getting screwed over if the current Heaven's Cloud is useless to begin with.  Even if wind loses Heaven's Cloud, it still has Silf, Fuuton, and Tornado, all of which are above-average abilities (especially since Fuuton's damage is getting buffed).  It also has Air Knife, which Dokurider demonstrates works well on Thieves.

On the other hand, water weapons and abilities are under-represented (even before supposing that Suiton is scratched.) Leviathan is one of the weaker summons for being 5 CT, having a multiplier of only 8, and having a status proc that doesn't disable; Maelstrom is incredibly niche.

Let me restate that the only case in which I want to make Heaven's Cloud water elemental is if Thief Hat loses "Half: Water".  Thief Hat is what kills Heaven's Cloud in my mind.  As for the Slow proc, well... if absorption is that important, we could always shift it over to Asura.  Mind you, not every Draw Out ability needs to be absorbed.

1. Kibaku Fuda's formula: ...

You're right about the homogeniety.  To be honest, using PA makes the skill harder to use well, but we'll run with it for now.

Meh. I can understand you reacting with hesitance given that Wizards or Black Magic still haven't exactly "taken off" despite all they got going into 1.38. You have to consider (further), however, that they're already getting a lot of buffs going into 1.39 merely by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying, the spellguns no longer going by Faith and Flare getting buffed. Then people agreed rather quickly that Death needed some type of buff, which it's now "definitely" getting in the form of going by Un-Brave and, in a way, Frog is getting buffed as well by becoming more accurate even if it will cost more MP. It wouldn't surprise me if people still wanted to see Poison buffed since it doesn't seem to be switching classes as I would personally want given that I think the key issue with Poison is that it's on the wrong class (unless "we" are doing that MP Poison & MP Regen thing).

You surely agree, though, that Frog, Flare, and Death are currently weak?  Frog was nerfed hard after the ailment was made to expire on death; Flare's buff is very minor; lastly, Death is becoming stronger primarily against 40 BrFa teams, but will still be unreliable against anything with a drop of M-EV.  We're lifting the bottom floor here.

Faith Rods are a valid concern with the spellgun change.  A Wizard with 17 MA and a Faith Rod deals 223~313 damage using (buffed) short-charged Bolt 2.  However, this wizard is woefully exposed to magic, particularly Summon Magick and Water, against which Reflect Ring offers no protection.  Besides, I don't think I'm alone in wanting Black Magick to be destructive even without Faith Rods.  Faith Rods are quite niche, after all.

Furthermore, that raises the issue of if Heaven's Cloud the katana should remain Wind element even though Heaven's Cloud the ability becomes Water. If not, then Wind loses a weapon as well as an ability, though it could better afford to lose a weapon even if Grand Cross with current Heaven's Cloud is the easiest Wind Grand Cross for Paladin to access.

Shifting the weapon to water element would be sensible.  I'm not really concerned.  We could turn Coral Sword into a Wind weapon that procs Kamaitachi, Sandstorm, or Gusty Wind to compensate.

Additionally, I don't think people ever really agreed about the Monk element thing (or Earth-flail for that matter), at least yet.

To be honest, I haven't heard comments nor complaints.  In fact, I think only Raven and I voiced approval at the moment (Raven because he proposed it, and me because I'm writing this sentence.)

[reinoe]

Just throwing my noob opinion into the Wind vs Water argument.  Currently there are a few too many defenses against water.  I don't think Heaven's Cloud needs to be changed to Water but I also really don't want Asura getting "slow".  Fire is already strong enough.  But one way that we could make Heaven's Cloud better would be to increase the proc rate.  It rarely gets used and I don't think a 33% rate is going overboard.

I'd like to see Secret Cloths get an elemental defense because it's a terrible piece of equipment that only get's used when all other options are taken first.

Although I think "Frog" is fine enough as a spell.  And speaking of status spells getting improvements I'm even even more convinced that BEGUILE needs improvements.

[Gaignun]

Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Would increasing Beguile's Y value from 45 to 50 be enough?

[reinoe]

Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Would increasing Beguile's Y value from 45 to 50 be enough?

Aha.  That post is very informative.  I hadn't realized how little Dark Protection there is considering how much support there is for that element.

Regarding Beguile's Y value, while I personally think it needs to be a 10, considering it can be blocked with low faith or reflection, On a good compat+high faith it's equivalent to steal heart.

[Dokurider]

Spellbreaker

Thing is, Spellbreaker only removes statuses 50% of the time according to the Master Guide. So it actually doesn't keep pace that well. Can it be safely buffed to being 100%? Yes it can, it's just I think that would be a much more useful skill if it did no damage, and just got rid of Reraise reliably. Why? So you can 'disarm' units of Reraise that have Dragon Spirit or just a nasty reaction in general, or just make it so you can take down tough units with Angel Ring/Chantage without worrying about what they will do when they get up.

Would Speed -1 be in addition to Always: Slow?

Yes

I'm guessing it would, but I'm really not thinking it would change much since, even with Quickening dying, Sprint Shoes automatically cancels that and Cheer Song cancels that out on the first try.

True, but now the choice has to be either field a 7 Speed Slowed unit or use up one of your equips to negate it. And while Cheer Song would cancel out the attribute on Phoenix Blade as well as Stone Gun, Cheer Song has an AI-enforced cap on it according to people I've spoken to, so that means that Speed -1 will still matter. Basically it's the difference between 11 speed and 12 speed.

Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Just a nitpick: Diamond Shield blocks Earth and Holy, and I think Float (the movement) should also factor in too. So that would be 8 defenses against Earth and 5 against Holy.

[The Damned]

(Ugh...fucking fatigue....)

Uh, Spellbreaker already cancels status at 100%, Dokurider. That's why I said "despite what the Master Guide says", especially since the Master Guide also says that Spellbreaker can avoided when it actually can't. At all.


1. Winded: I meant in terms of (AoE) absorption, Gaignun. Without Heaven's Cloud, all that can be absorbed AoE-wise with Wind is Tornado and the Crosses, the latter of which are both weapon-based (and thus susceptible to Weapon Break) and not MA-based. Literally every other element has at least two MA-based things that can be absorbed (now), while Wind, which is already the least absorbed element now, would be reduced to one...that's Faith-based...when the only other prominent Wind-absorb (before Monk changes) would a single-target ability that's UnFaith-based.

That is the problem. I agree that Silf is good; Silf is great, actually. It can't be absorbed, however, and the two other "leftover" absorb-able abilities you provide as examples are totally contrary to each other in purpose. There's a reason that my "Gone with the Wind" team didn't bother trying to use Tornado despite the fact that I think the current forms of Tornado and Quake are overpowered (due to their Speed): it's because for me to get use out of Fuuton, I couldn't use Tornado. Heaven's Cloud, as crappy as it is/was, at least gave another MA-based option that didn't undermine Fuuton and wasn't undermined by powering up Fuuton to its fullest. Without that, given that whatever Monk ability it gets isn't going to be replacing it as an AoE ability, much less an MA-based ability...yeah.

Part of the problem with Water element before FFMaster gave into my griping about it not being able to "really" be absorbed was, before the Water spells, the paucity of its abilities (and weapons). That meant that all of its absorption was a) physical and b) stuck to close-range AoE on relatively crappy weapons (when it came to Grand Cross). Wind is certainly doing better in the weapon department already thankfully, even if we make Heaven's Cloud the katana Water element as well (which I think we should if we go with your suggestion, but more on that in a bit). Being stuck with the Crosses as its only other source of AoE, though, also means that units are either going to have to block: Blind and get Blinded a lot if they don't or they're going to have to forego being able heal themselves while healing their allies via Southern Cross.

So I ask that you "forgive" me for being cautious about Wind's future here (even though I think I just thought of a solution given something else you mentioned).


2. Watered Down: Leviathan is also one of only two summons that hits an AoE 3 and is one of only two skills in all of ARENA that hits such a large area without hitting the entire map. Sure, its proc could be "better" or at least more active, but we can change that if we want even though the dispel aspect of it has been useful in the past (due to all the Masamune flying around). Also, with Thief Hat getting a necessary nerf in terms of elemental resistances, Leviathan is getting at least one boost. Additionally, my recalling at least a couple of people besides myself saying that Salamander probably shouldn't add Oil means that if that changes, then Leviathan gets another implicit boost.

As for Maelstrom, you think that's niche? When that ability is basically the reason that Short Circuit and other four-Lore teams are able to curb-stomp people so horribly due to the current version of Defense Ring and Rubber Costume? What. If you're going to accuse any of the current Lore, all-map abilities of being niche at present, then it's Rime Bolt you want since no one has used that for quite a while and, to a lesser extent, Shadow Shade. Hell, Natural Selection was niche and basically never used before I nagged FFMaster into changing it to Maelstrom, which hasn't even been around long to be legitimately called niche. Bio 3 is more niche than Maelstrom. If you honestly think Maelstrom is "niche", then you and I have very different definitions of that word.

Regardless, current Water techniques and Water abilities are more or less fine, and even with Thief Hat, I honestly don't understand why people keep saying it still has such problems; I'm really tempted to make a tournament team for it, though I suspect maybe CT5Holy already has.... Yeah, current Water weapons still kind of suck (for purposes of Cross absorption, at least, since Whale Whisker breaks face), but again, an element having legitimate absorption strategies means it shouldn't be dependent upon the Crosses or weapons, so....


3. Thief Hat and Heaven's Cloud: Yes, I realized that, which is why I agreed it's a good idea. It's just that it kinda screws over Wind element for reasons that I expressed above.

That said, provided Heaven's Cloud the ability does get made into Water, then I propose that Heaven's Cloud the Katana follow suit, especially given Water element would be losing a weapon (a Flail) if people agree about the "Desert Rose" Earth-element flail. Also, since you mentioned Leviathan and I mentioned Salamander...:


- Heaven's Cloud: 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Water Element, 50% Dispel Magic, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Masamune: 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Initial: Haste & Regen, 25%-33% Slow, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Leviathan: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Slow rather than 20% Cancel: Positive Status. (Only counting this as a buff since current Leviathan [and Water, for that matter] can get rid of Faith.)
- Salamander: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Don't Move rather than 20% Add: Oil.


In addition to that, provided we could make Heaven's Cloud merely dispel positive status like the other current Water element techniques and keep it able to hit allies. If we really wanted to make Asura not enemy-only, then do we have to make anything else enemy-only really? And if we do, then perhaps we should make Koutetsu enemy only then, especially with the buff to Demi (and the fact that Koutetsu the Katana sees so little use)?

Other than that, that still leaves Coral Sword as a "problem" given while it would be sensible for it to become Wind, I'd rather not Water lose yet another weapon, even as much as Coral Sword presently is underwhelming. This especially since both Katana and Pole are among the rarer equipment classes get while Swords are practically ubiquitous and every element needs at least one easily accessible item I think even with what I said above. After all, this is currently part of why you almost never see Dark-element Crosses since the only Dark weapons presently are a Katana and a Flail, both of which almost no classes get.

Still, I need to think about how to "improve" Coral Sword since I'm not sure Suiton is it, though again I readily admit that's better than its current Water Ball proc.


4. The "Weakness" of Black Magic: Frog is not and never has been weak. It got weaker, yeah, but it also got made to be, you know, fair in the process. If we're talking about statuses that are made worse since A.I. rarely heals them, then Frog was basically at the top of the pile before it got changed to be canceled on death. Sure, the A.I. would heal it...if the unit was nearby, but considering a Frogged unit's first inclination was and remains to run away from its party, a Frogged unit still tends to remain Frogged for the whole match. This especially since the A.I. isn't de-Frogging itself with Frog for some reason even if it has the spell. Making Frog cancel on death just means that you can't abuse Lore (or Poison) in tandem with Frog and then doubly waste the enemy's turn effortlessly re-killing the still-Frogged unit they try to resurrect, not that Frog magically became "weak".

As such, considering Frog being made even slightly more accurate is to me ultimately a rather moderate buff even with the (necessary) MP increase given that Frog still remains basically a "you probably lose this unit for good" K.O.-esque spell like Petrify. This especially since Maiden's Kiss still sees a lot less purchase than Soft. I mean, Frog, despite its nerf, has basically been the only thing remotely capable of taking down Wiz's currently busted team because of that, so...yeah. Frog is hardly "weak" even if it's weaker.

Flare also isn't weak; it's just currently outclassed by Holy in almost every case, when it shouldn't be. Yes, there's a difference, especially when Flare is at least getting minor buffs and Golden Hairpin is getting nerf it deserves. Additionally, Holy really really should also be getting some minor nerfs in terms of damage and/or speed, especially given all the other buffs the already strong White Magic is getting. So, yeah, Flare isn't weak either, especially since it's the only Black Magic spell (and one of the few Faith-based spells period) not affected by M-EV.

The current Death spell, however, is weak (unless you're Vigilanti or, oddly, Celdia--I swear that's like the only ability she has luck with though). It's like "a Belmont or half-vampire has me in a headlock and using Holy Water" Castlevania Death weak. It's weak for the same reason that Poison is weak and for a reason you already pointed out about Wizards: Black Magick is usually held by glass cannons that are concerned with nuking their enemy as hard and fast as possible. Normal Tier 1 spells (or the Nether spells on teams like Dokurider's "Strangers from the Lake team") already act like more accurate AoE death at present, which has always been the problem really since the elemental spells default to 100% without any M-EV in the way while Death...doesn't. Switching it to UnBrave/UnFury at least gives it far less competition and thus amounts to a sizable buff.

So the only Black Magic spell that is actually going to remain "weak" going into 1.39 is, again, Poison, which is basically anathema to everything Black Magic is trying to accomplish anyway and why I keep saying that spell should just change jobs. This even if we (force FFMaster to) do the MP Regen & MP Poison thing. I mean, really, anything Black Magick can't "nuke" it can just Frog and, going into 1.39, Death even if it has low-Faith.

Given people bought my "Balance should go to Oracle" thing surprisingly, I'd offer that Poison should go to Time Mage given it could use some more (offensive) support, Poison compliments that currently weak Don't Move spell and the A.I. will use Poison. I'd also suggest Wizard should get some composite Bio spell that can add Poison at 20% both as recompense and so that the Bio spells, as busted as Bio 1 and Bio 2 are, don't just completely go "poof".

But...yeah, as far as Black Magic being "weak", not really. It got a bunch of buffs going into 1.38 with only Frog being (necessarily) nerfed and while White Magic still "out-nukes" Flare (and Death) presently, that too should be changing going into 1.39.


5. Monk element shifts: I vaguely recall people being some hesitant about it, even if they haven't "complained" per say. I think my "issue" with it is two-fold beyond the Wind & Water thing: I personally need more time to think about it still and I don't think it's necessarily a good policy, in this case, to think "silence = approval". The latter is admittedly also because I'm just used to silence on a matter being that people either ignored it, missed it, don't care about it or otherwise currently have no opinion on the matter.

So...yeah. I personally still need more time to think about it and while I'm obviously not the only one deciding this, I can't speak for other people one way or the other.


6. Beguile increasing by 10: Yeah, this seems fair really. It shouldn't break anything at least, especially since I keep saying that N-Kai Armlet has always been one of the better accessories even before its buffs just because it blocks something as powerful as Charm.


7. Phoenix Blade having -1 Speed on top of Slow: Yeah, I guess. Like I said, I'm not exactly a fan of Phoenix Blade though, so I'm biased.



All this Water and Wind take makes want to make a team for the tournament that absorbs one. Of course, it will be difficult to prove a point one way or the other between the Faith-based spell guns and Quickening and Cursed Ring....

[CT5Holy]

Ok, some things I feel obligated to point out:
1. no one uses Cheer Song
2. ~5 teams use Tactician's Blade. That's not "a decent amount of use."
3. People definitely get Maiden's Kiss, since it cures Sleep.

I'm also unsure about Beguile getting +10 to accuracy. It would then become 5% less accurate than Paralyze and Sleep. Assuming 10 MA, 70 Faith caster to 70 Faith target, Beguile accuracy would be 71%. 71%. Methinks that's a little too high for Charm. 70 Faith to 40 Faith would be a more reasonable 51%. It is 5 CT, but it does have 5 range. Yin-Yang Magic benefits a lot from Short Charge, as it makes it more effectively disrupt the enemy team, putting Beguile to 3 CT, which is enough time to catch slower spells, like Raise 2 and Holy.

+5 to Beguile accuracy seems more reasonable. Also, what about lowering Steal Heart's accuracy? It's currently MA+50%, when most Talk Skills are MA+45%, and it's instant, which means it can cancel anything being charged. Additionally, I think everyone agrees that Charm is a devastating status. Steal Heart would still be used at MA+45%, and it would mean Beguile becomes more accurate than Steal Heart on average. 10 MA caster, Beguile hit rate at +5 from current form, 70 Faith to 70 Faith target is 66%, 70 to 40 is 47%. I suppose, most importantly, is that in worst case scenario (not counting Zodiac compats), Beguile would only be barely worse than Steal Heart.

[Gaignun]

Diamond Shield blocks Earth and Holy, and I think Float (the movement) should also factor in too. So that would be 8 defenses against Earth and 5 against Holy.

Forgot about those shields.  Wind, Water, Earth, and Holy should be increased by one.  I was only tallying equipment, so Float was left out.  If we include it, then yeah, Earth has 8.

(Ugh...fucking fatigue....)

Go exercise!

1. Winded:

So your requirement for elements is for each to have at least two MA-based, friendly-fire AoE skills?  That's currently untenable.  What about Fire and Holy?  Fire only has one (well, three, but they're all on the same skill set), and Holy has none at all!

Additionally, my recalling at least a couple of people besides myself saying that Salamander probably shouldn't add Oil means that if that changes, then Leviathan gets another implicit boost.

Nerfing Salamander doesn't boost Leviathan.  It just makes both of them bad.

If you honestly think Maelstrom is "niche", then you and I have very different definitions of that word.

I use the dictionary's definition of niche: "specialized."  As in, "Maelstrom is niche in that every member of one's party needs to be equipped to resist water."  The scholar usually needs extremely high MA and/or 0 Move to be effective, as well.  Just because it's niche doesn't mean it has to suck.

Anyway, using Maelstrom to discuss the merits of water is moot:  Scholars are losing 2 base MA, and Water absorption is being shifted from Defense Ring to (the fashionably unpopular) Jade Armlet.

- Heaven's Cloud: 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Water Element, 50% Dispel Magic, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Masamune: 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Initial: Haste & Regen, 25%-33% Slow, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Leviathan: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Slow rather than 20% Cancel: Positive Status. (Only counting this as a buff since current Leviathan [and Water, for that matter] can get rid of Faith.)
- Salamander: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Don't Move rather than 20% Add: Oil.

That nerf to Salamander is unnecessary.  I don't see Salamander as a very exploitable way of applying Oil compared to Short Edge.  Besides, we're still waiting to hear back on how Oil can be nerfed as a status.  The nerf to Oil itself might be enough to assuage your anxiety over Salamander.

As for the others, I don't mind one way or the other.

If we really wanted to make Asura not enemy-only, then do we have to make anything else enemy-only really?

How about making the Draw Out skill that applies Slow enemy only?  Other than that, nothing.  Seeing how unpopular the current Asura is in comparison to Chirijiraden and Koutetsu, nothing of value is being lost here.

... considering Frog being made even slightly more accurate is to me ultimately a rather moderate buff even with the (necessary) MP increase given that Frog still remains basically a "you probably lose this unit for good" K.O.-esque spell like Petrify.

You typically lose the frog until it dies, and it dies quickly due to its receiving bonus damage, which the AI loves.  Maybe the buff is not necessary and can, thus, be removed.  Although, I do remember hearing somebody (was it Reinoe?) express interest in it.

[Flare and Holy]

I am adamantly against nerfing Holy.  It (and, to a lesser extent, Cyclops) is the only skill the holy element has.  And you're worried about Wind!  The nerf to Golden Hairpin is already going to drop Holy's damage by 20~30 across the board.

Flare's ability to ignore M-EV (and reflect) is huge.  It allows Flare to punch through teams using Abandon -- teams against which Holy falls flat.  Flare would be worse than Holy if it was on White Magick.

So the only Black Magic spell that is actually going to remain "weak" going into 1.39 is, again, Poison, which is basically anathema to everything Black Magic is trying to accomplish anyway and why I keep saying that spell should just [be given to Time Mages].

Poison has its place.  Wizards use Poison when they're up against units with elemental resistances and/or Shell.  It's not supposed to compete with tiered magic.  That's why it's affordable.  Giving it to Time Mages will just add more noise to the Time Magick skill set.  Time Mages already have Slow, Stop, and Don't Move to play with, and the AI loves applying these just as much as Poison.

[The Damned]

(For the record, it was kinda too late when I woke up to go exercise and the fatigue was more from being awake since yesterday.)

I guess I'll just use quotes this time since I'm tired of using bold at present. This will still be pretty long though, so I'll use spoilers as well.

spoiler: In reply to CT5Holy

Ok, some things I feel obligated to point out:
1. no one uses Cheer Song

Because of Quickening. Seriously, you can't tell me Cheer Song isn't hurt by Quickening's brain-dead existence. Just like how you can't tell me Quickening doesn't also screw over Slow Dance, Speed Ruin and, to a degree, the Haste & Slow spells.

I'm not going to act like Cheer Song doesn't have issues even without Quickening's idiocy, but it can't exactly compete with what Quickening currently offers and it's unfair to try to fault it for not being as abusive as something that was one of FFMaster's few bad ideas from the get-go. Even then, I know at least a couple of people have tried to use it between myself and Raven. I think one other person has too and that number will doubtless increase once Quickening gets shoved into the incinerator where it belongs.

If anything, we should be applauding Cheer Song for having built-in balance when it comes to A.I. since it's not going to up and become the next Quickening if still allowed.

2. ~5 teams use Tactician's Blade. That's not "a decent amount of use."

Define "a decent amount of use" for ARENA given how few people we (still) have then and compared the amount of (working) weapons, like Silencer, Platinum Sword, half of the Katana, half of the Ninjato, half of the Poles and all of the Cloths that both exist and see no use. I didn't say it saw a great amount of use--not everything can be Hidden Knife or a spellgun--or even a good amount of use, but even having been "gone" for a month, the few teams I've seen use it have used it well, hence "decent".

3. People definitely get Maiden's Kiss, since it cures Sleep.

I never said people don't buy Maiden's Kiss. I said they still purchase it less than Soft because I was comparing Frog to Petrify.

Of course people are using Maiden's Kiss, especially since Sleep lasts so (read: probably too) damn long, but you can't honestly tell me people still aren't buying Soft more if only because Soft is 50 JP cheaper. Well, that and all of the Cursed Ring usage since Petrify is literally the only thing that stops those guys outside of Steal Accessory, especially with Quickening around. After all, unlike Sleep and even Frog, which can eventually wear off (now), if you can't cure Petrify, then that unit is effectively instantly Crystallized. (Which is what old Frog also basically used to do.)

I'm also unsure about Beguile getting +10 to accuracy. It would then become 5% less accurate than Paralyze and Sleep. Assuming 10 MA, 70 Faith caster to 70 Faith target, Beguile accuracy would be 71%. 71%. Methinks that's a little too high for Charm. 70 Faith to 40 Faith would be a more reasonable 51%. It is 5 CT, but it does have 5 range. Yin-Yang Magic benefits a lot from Short Charge, as it makes it more effectively disrupt the enemy team, putting Beguile to 3 CT, which is enough time to catch slower spells, like Raise 2 and Holy.

+5 to Beguile accuracy seems more reasonable. Also, what about lowering Steal Heart's accuracy? It's currently MA+50%, when most Talk Skills are MA+45%, and it's instant, which means it can cancel anything being charged. Additionally, I think everyone agrees that Charm is a devastating status. Steal Heart would still be used at MA+45%, and it would mean Beguile becomes more accurate than Steal Heart on average. 10 MA caster, Beguile hit rate at +5 from current form, 70 Faith to 70 Faith target is 66%, 70 to 40 is 47%. I suppose, most importantly, is that in worst case scenario (not counting Zodiac compats), Beguile would only be barely worse than Steal Heart.

So noted then. I can get behind Beguile "only" becoming accurate by +5 if that's what it actually translates when all is said and done. I want it to get a buff of some kind, but that doesn't mean I want it to become suddenly stupid either.

spoiler: In reply to Gaignun

So your requirement for elements is for each to have at least two MA-based, friendly-fire AoE skills?  That's currently untenable.  What about Fire and Holy?  Fire only has one (well, three, but they're all on the same skill set), and Holy has none at all!

No. That's not my requirement. My requirement, if I had any, would merely be having another AoE at all besides reasonable access to the Crosses, which Wind would still have (theoretically).

I was merely pointing out that AoE was the only thing that Wind had going for it on the MA-based side and that two of the few Wind absorb-able techniques left, Tornado and Fuuton, are utterly contrary to each other and thus can't be used on the same team. At least the current Heaven's Cloud is something else for Wind to work with on the MA-side since, without it, there's really no point in using Tornado for purposes of absorption (unless you're planning to make 70/70 melee units, which tends to...not work outside of having Raise as back-up).

Shrug. I just don't see the point of making the already bad Wind absorption even worse, at least without any potential suggestions--even if they're not followed through with--for recompense or us being "really" sure about Draw Out or Monk just yet. Sort of a Catch-22, I know, since that's why we're discussing it, but still.

As for Fire, meh. It already has three spells like you said, even if they are all on the same skill set. And? The same applies for Ice (because, again, no one's been using Rime Bolt for quite a while) and, since you keep calling Maelstrom "niche", Water too technically. Besides, there actually being more than one (non-contrary) technique means at least everyone on the team can use it, rather than only two units max having Tornado and no one getting Wind-absorb-able Heaven's Cloud now.

I guess 70/70 units with Wind [Whatever] Crosses might work on Tornado absorb teams, but so far no one's even really been successful at trying that. Whether it's because of Thief Hat or Magic Ring or whatever, I'm not sure, but...yeah.

When it comes to Holy, that has a) Dia as well, b) one of the best Grand Crosses due to Excalibur (and, to a lesser extent, Silver Bow) and c) power, which is why people agreed on it being the rarer single-target element. Wind also sort of has power, especially since current Tornado is a bit too strong for its current Speed and Scholar's Wizard+ stats, but unlike Holy element, it doesn't really...cohesiveness I guess is the word I want? Fuuton & Tornado work against each other while Wind doesn't have much else to "fall back on" absorption-wise unlike Dark and Water (or, I guess, Earth if we're changing Suiton to Doton "all of a sudden"). This even though Dark was/is also supposed to be a "rarer, more powerful" element; while it doesn't have weapons to Grand Cross with, it's been steadily getting better and better AoE.

I'd like to think Wind absorb can work as it is now or maybe even without any recompense for Heaven's Cloud, but even Holy, for all its "limitation" AoE-wise, has seen way more (successful) absorb based teams than Wind ever has. And given we're trying to base data off what's actually happened merely than what ifs--like with the dual rod thing--or what could be...yeah.

I really do want to believe, though. [/X-Files]

Nerfing Salamander doesn't boost Leviathan.  It just makes both of them bad.

True, even though, again, I don't believe Leviathan is actually "bad". I just vaguely remember some people saying they thought Oil on Salamander was a bit much, just like with Oil on Fire. (This was probably largely because, again, Oil itself is currently "a bit much.")

I use the dictionary's definition of niche: "specialized."  As in, "Maelstrom is niche in that every member of one's party needs to be equipped to resist water."  The scholar usually needs extremely high MA and/or 0 Move to be effective, as well.  Just because it's niche doesn't mean it has to suck.

...How is absorption strategy niche when that's what Lore has been used with/for and Defense Ring is like the go-to accessory for mages currently because it blocks Silence, a bunch of other detrimental statuses and absorbs Water? Similarly, how is that "niche" when the same thing applies to literally ever other all-map Lore spell? Are you suddenly trying to say that all-map Lore spells are themselves "niche" just because they need some type of set-up and can't be slapped on to everything like brain-dead Quickening or brain-dead Masamune even though such Lore spells have been incredibly effective?

Again, "What."

Anyway, using Maelstrom to discuss the merits of water is moot:  Scholars are losing 2 base MA, and Water absorption is being shifted from Defense Ring to (the fashionably unpopular) Jade Armlet.

True. You brought it up in the first place though, which is why I was refuting it. Also, considering current Defense Ring is almost as overpowered as current Golden Hairpin and 1.39 Jade Armlet is getting a pair of considerable buffs, that alone helps Water a lot actually. So, uh....

That nerf to Salamander is unnecessary.  I don't see Salamander as a very exploitable way of applying Oil compared to Short Edge.  Besides, we're still waiting to hear back on how Oil can be nerfed as a status.  The nerf to Oil itself might be enough to assuage your anxiety over Salamander.

As for the others, I don't mind one way or the other.

True. It depends how Oil is nerfed though. Personally, I'm not that "anxious" about Salamander since, hell, I've probably used that spell more than most people, so I'd just be nerfing myself again. I merely mentioned it because I remember at least a couple of people mentioning it months ago and it not really getting discussed.

How about making the Draw Out skill that applies Slow enemy only?  Other than that, nothing.  Seeing how unpopular the current Asura is in comparison to Chirijiraden and Koutetsu, nothing of value is being lost here.

I need to consider it more, but I guess I'd be up for that depending what it meant. Does it mean leaving Asura as enemy-only and transferring Heaven's Cloud 20% Slow to it while leaving Heaven's Cloud as Wind? Or something else? And what of the katana (plural) then?

You typically lose the frog until it dies, and it dies quickly due to its receiving bonus damage, which the AI loves.  Maybe the buff is not necessary and can, thus, be removed.  Although, I do remember hearing somebody (was it Reinoe?) express interest in it.

Well yeah, Frogs tend to get killed quickly if they're caught. The thing is, though, when it comes how the Frog spell actually tends to connect in most instances, it's before the unit is all that close to the rest of the enemies. Thus the unit will separate from its team (if it even has any team left) while the rest of its team just advances forward if they can't cure Frog. So that unit probably stays Frogged for the rest of the match, whether its team wins or loses--its team will be far more likely to lose if no one can cure Frog without dying, though.

Also, given the way you're talking about Frog being nerfed, it's almost like you're ignoring the fact that Frog can potentially hit one of the units with resurrection capabilities on a team. Most teams tend to "only" have two such units and if both of them are Faith-based for purposes of Raise, Raise 2 or Fairy, then they're extra susceptible to Frog really.

As for the buff, meh, it's slight so it's probably fine. It definitely could stand to cost more MP regardless though.

I am adamantly against nerfing Holy.  It (and, to a lesser extent, Cyclops) is the only skill the holy element has.  And you're worried about Wind!  The nerf to Golden Hairpin is already going to drop Holy's damage by 20~30 across the board.

Like I said above, you're forgetting Dia and Excalibur Grand Cross, which are both quite good (even if, thankfully, Dia didn't turn out to be as overpowered on White Magick as I expected). As for the nerf to Golden Hairpin, okay, if you say so. I was merely suggesting Holy the spell probably needs to be nerfed slightly more (like 1 mere point more, so when strengthen it doesn't still out-damage Flare), not demanding Holy's head or anything.

Flare's ability to ignore M-EV (and reflect) is huge.  It allows Flare to punch through teams using Abandon -- teams against which Holy falls flat.  Flare would be worse than Holy if it was on White Magick.

...Okay? I don't recall refuting this. In fact, you were the one saying Flare was weak. So now you're say that Flare would be even stronger on White Magick?

Yes, it would. I don't and have never disputed that--quite the opposite considering how much I've kvetched in the past couple of months about how strong White Magick already is and how it's been getting nothing but buffs going into 1.39.

So, I agree? Are we arguing because we're in agreement suddenly?

Poison has its place.  Wizards use Poison when they're up against units with elemental resistances and/or Shell.  It's not supposed to compete with tiered magic.  That's why it's affordable.  Giving it to Time Mages will just add more noise to the Time Magick skill set.  Time Mages already have Slow, Stop, and Don't Move to play with, and the AI loves applying these just as much as Poison.

I guess you have a point about elemental resistances and Shell. It's just that Poison is still ineffectual as hell with all of the Masamune going around. Maybe the change to Dispel and the addition of Kibaku Fuda will change that. I'll remain skeptical until I see it happen consistently enough though.

As for being "more noise", why is that a bad thing if Poison would still fit better on Time Mage potentially than Wizard? It's not like you're mandated to use every skill a skill set has or even half of the skills. Rather the opposite, in fact. After all, to phrase the tournament motto, "Know the A.I. Be the A.I. Realize what the A.I. will actually use to kill everyone."

I mean, if you're talking about skill sets being "noisy" just because they have many similar things to play with, then we could totally reduce almost all of the magick sets to half of what they currently are at the very least. After all, isn't Yin Yang Magick "noisy" as hell when Paralyze, Dispel, Petrify and maybe Undead basically trump everything else it has access to? Etcerta etcerta.

[FFMaster]

OK!!!!!!!! TIME TO OIL UP!

I can do pretty much anything stated. However here are some problems.

Both ideas if I just did really quick fixes WILL bring weak/absorb back into action. Just be prepared for that. Getting afflicted by Oil, and then having a teammate use HC on your face to heal 300+ like good oldschool Arena. As for changing the weakness multiplier to 1.5x, it would mean that we would have to remove all the half: element from all the absorbing items as well, else they will only heal 0.75x damage. This will also bring back the Weak/Absorb, although at 1.5x healing.

I'm completely out of touch with Arena now so I won't make any suggestions for balance, I'll just say what is/isn't mechanically possible.

On an unrelated note, here are a few ideas in the backburner if I have time to implement them for 139:

Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.
Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.

EDIT: I plan to start work on the massive update for 139 tomorrow. Should I just follow the thread Gaignun made?