FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(I'm not sure why you want to give mages yet another source of block Silence when you've repeatedly said you thought that Nameless Dance was worthless given "all mages block Silence" as it is, Malroth.)

I can get behind Darkness/Blind becoming finite but still having a long-ish CT given the AI's...idiocy when it comes to not healing that thing by itself most of the time. It would be more preferable if we could make it just heal Blind or at least making recognize that physically attacking is a lot less attractive when Blind, especially if it has other (unaffected) options.

I'm guessing that we could just use Wall's CT for this if we can use Reflect's CT to give Berserk a CT, correct? Similarly, Silence would still remain "infinite", correct?

===============

Anyway, while that marinates, I'm just going to take the time to formally post my more "controversial" personal suggestions from the 139 thread here for perusal and such since that particular post of mine was even longer than usual, spoilers aside. Actually, I think I still go back and edit some things in even though I fixed all of the typos (that I saw)....

Regardless, this will be a far more concise version that just contains some of my "crazier" ideas. I'll be ignoring Masamune, Spellguns and, for the most part, Time Mage's stats here:

spoiler: Faux Controversy

spoiler: Class & Abilities

1. [SQUIRE]: Heal and only Heal becomes a new source of canceling Oil.

2. [PALADIN]: Reraise's CT increases from 0 to 2 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

3. [ARCHER]: Hawk's Eye's MP cost increases from 8 to 10 and Archer gets at least +2 MP across the board.

4. [PRIEST]: The spell Wall's MP decreases from 25 to 20 and its CT decreases from 3 to 2.

5. [PRIEST]: Holy's X decreases from 16 to 15.

6. [PRIEST]: Priest's Speed increases from 8 to 9, MP decreases by 5, Male Priest's PA decreases from 8 to 7 (and at present its HP doesn't change).

7. [WIZARD]: Death's JP cost decreases from 200 to 150.

8. [WIZARD]: Poison spell goes to Time Mage and Wizard instead gains a composite Bio spell: Old Bio 2 stats except it costs 15 MP, is F(MA*8), has 150 JP and adds Poison instead of Frog (and is actually susceptible to Reflect).

9. [TIME MAGE]: Comet's JP cost decreases from 150 to 100 and it becomes susceptible to Counter Magic (but not Counter Flood).

10. [TIME MAGE]: Stop's MP cost increases from 14 to 16.

11. [TIME MAGE]: Balance goes to Oracle and it gains Poison from Wizard.

12. [TIME MAGE]: Critical Quick's JP cost decreases from 300 to at most 250, Chrono Trigger's JP cost decreases from 300 to at least 250 and it gains "Equip Magegear" Support from now defunct Scholar.

13. [TIME MAGE]: Time Mage's Speed increases from 8 to 10 and its C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.

14. [THIEF]: Bad Luck's CT decreases from 4 to 3, MP cost decreases from 9 to 8, status infliction becomes Random rather than Separate (?), loses Dead, Oil & Slow aspects, is no longer susceptible to Counter Magic and gains the ability to proc Death Sentence, Don't Move or Don't Act. (Also, maybe rename it "Jinx".)

15. [THIEF]: Quickening dies in a fire and is then taken out back and shot for good measure before being buried in an unmarked grave. That or at the very, very, very least it has its MP cost increased from 15 to at least 20.

16. [THIEF]: Power Ruin and Mind Ruin's JP costs decrease from 200 to 150.

17. [THIEF]: Thief's MP increases by at least 1 (but probably more if Quickening dies) and Thief's HP drops by 10 across the board.

18. [MEDIATOR]: Persuade becomes single-target Add: Stop, its X becomes 40 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 300.

19. [MEDIATOR]: Solution becomes Cancel: All Negative statuses and its JP cost increases from 100 to 200 JP.

20. [MEDIATOR]: Refute loses Charging & Performing & its ability to Cancel: All Negative statuses, becoming Cancel: All Positive statuses, and its JP cost decreases from 300 to 200 JP.

21. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator gains "Move -1" Movement from Paladin.

22. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator's HP decreases by about 10 and Mediator's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.

23. [ORACLE]: Beguile's CT decreases from 5 to 4 and its MP cost decreases from 20 to 16.

24. [ORACLE]: Paralyze's X decreases from 60 to 55 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

25. [ORACLE]: Sleep's CT increases from 4 to 5, its MP cost decreases from 24 to 20 and its X increases from 60 to 65.

26. [ORACLE]: Oracle gains Balance from Time Mage, which remains the same except that its JP decreases from 300 to 250 and its CT increases from 2 to 3.

27. [ORACLE]: Oracle's HP increases by 10 (probably not necessary), Oracle's MP increases by at least 5 and Male Oracle's PA increases from 7 to 8.

28. [GEOMANCER]: Geomancer's C-EV decreases from 10% to 5%.

29. [LANCER]: Lancer's C-EV increases from 5% to 10% and its MA increases by 1.

30. [SAMURAI]: Bizen Boat becomes subject to M-EV.

31. [SAMUARI]: Murasame's X decreases from 10 to 9.

32. [NINJA]: Tsumazuku dies and Ninja gets something that's worth using, that it will actually use and that will still at least cancel or deny Haste.

33. [NINJA]: Shuriken's MP decreases from 10 to 8.

34. [NINJA]: Kagesougi's MP cost increases from 5 to at least 8 and it loses its ability to cause Don't Act.

35. [DRUID]: Gets Mad Science as Scholar currently has it, except with CT 3 and renamed "Astra"; Heart of the Wild becomes unnecessary. Should probably get a fourth Inner Beast-linked ability with "Heart of the Wild" "dead". I'm not sure about what it should be though at present.

36. [DRUID]: Loses "Equip Magegear" Support, which goes to Time Mage, since it will have "Inner Beast" support its stead.

37. [DRUID]: Its MA is, at most, 11 so that it doesn't go back to having basically Wizard+ stats.


38. [BARD]: Last Song's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.

39. [DANCER]: Wiznaibus's JP cost decreases from 200 back to 100.

40. [DANCER]: Last Dance's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.

41. [BARD & DANCER]: Brave UP's JP cost decreases from 200 to 100.

spoiler: Weapons, Shields & Armors (as Sirs Not Appearing Here) and Accessories

1. [KNIVES]: Throwing Knife's WP increases from 10 to 12 and maybe its Death Sentence proc decreases from 33% to 25% (especially if Death Sentence gets "buffed").

2. [KNIVES]: Dual Cutter's WP increases from 7 to 8.

3. [KNIVES]: Repel Knife's WP decreases from 9 to 7 and it actually adds both Don't Act and Haste at the same time or nothing at all instead of the Separate things it's doing now.

4. [KNIVES]: Mage Masher either keeps the 100% Bizen Boat proc it has now (despite what it says in the Master Guide presently) and its WP decreases from 9 to 8 or it goes back to the 50% Bizen Boat it "should" be and its WP increases from 9 to 10.

5. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Knife's WP decreases from 11 to 9 since Kagesougi's powerful enough without its best Ninjato, sans Hidden Knife, buffing it and having the most WP.

6. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Edge's WP increases from 9 to 11 since it has to compete with Kagesougi still causing Don't Move as it is.

7. [SWORDS]: Phoenix Blade's W-EV decreases from 25% to 20% and it loses Immune: Dead (especially if it gets Immune: Critical).

8. [SWORDS]: (As furtherance of Raven's suggestion): Parry Edge's WP increases from 9 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 20% to 25%.

9. [SWORDS]: Platinum Sword's W-EV increases from 10% to 15%.

10. [SWORDS]: Ice Brand's WP decreases from 14 to 13 and its chance of casting Ice 2 increases from 25% to 33% (or, better yet, 50% Ice).

11. [KATANA]: Asura Knife's WP decreases from 10 to 9.

12. [KATANA]: Bizen Boat's WP increases from 9 to 10.

13. [AXES]: (As a slight tweak of Raven's suggestion): Battle Axe's W-EV decreases from 30% to 25% W-EV, "Decapitate"'s damage decreases from 85% TarMaxHP to (around) 50% TarMaxHP and gets renamed "Maim".

14. [AXES]: Giant Axe's WP decreases from 10 to 9.

15. [AXES]: (As taking Raven's suggestion seriously): Slasher's W-EV decreases from 30% to 20% and it becomes usable with Two Swords.

16. [STAVES]: White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental.

17. [STAVES]: Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)

18. [STAVES]: (As a compromise so that Wizard Staff can change): Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA.

19. [STAVES]: Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff.

20. [STAVES]: (As a furtherance of Dokurider's suggestion): Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%.

21. [GUNS]: Romanda Gun's WP decreases from 10 to 8.

22. [GUNS]: Mythril Gun's WP increases from 8 to 10.

23. [LONGBOWS]: Silver Bow gains +2 MA or at least +1 MA.

24. [ACCESSORIES]: (As per formerdeathcorps's suggestion): Defense Ring loses Absorb: Water & Gains Null: Ice.

25. [ACCESSORIES]: (As per formerdeathcorps's suggestion): Jade Armlet loses Null: Ice & Gains Absorb: Water. (I'd suggest calling this Coral Armlet, but that might just be me.)

spoiler: Statuses (since General Stuff was all for FFMaster)

1. [OIL]: Remains "one-shot" & not applicable with Holy & Dark, but instead gains the ability to block Haste and perhaps even cancel it.

2. [RERAISE]: Changes to (formally) cancel Death Sentence.

3. [BERSERK]: If so possible, then this trades CT with Reflect (or even Wall) and gets a finite CT of, say, 48.

4. [DEATH SENTENCE]: If anything new "should" block Reactions that doesn't already, then it should be finite and it should probably be this.

5. [DEATH SENTENCE]: Changes to cancel Reraise.

Aside from all of that, I've still been thinking (while I have the free time) about what to do with Madlemgen vs. Lamia Harp and Persia & Cashmere if Harps and Cloths are to be included in Equip Magegear and Equip Polearms respectively; both of those and Equip Clothing might need an JP cost of 50, but meh. I think I've found a solution though I'm not too sure how Item Attribute space is looking since Raven isn't a machine and has a life on top of other things to work on.


Anyway, I figure I'll put my proposals for those two "issues" here last night. Well, I'll put those two issues here and a couple of "slight" issues with Monster Dict while I'm talking about Books:


1. Madlemgen: Its proc of 33% Stop (status) instead becomes either 25% Sleep (status) or 33% Sleep (spell). Since Madlemgen is overall "weaker" than Lamia Harp (damage-wise), it gets the stronger proc; Lamia Harp stays as it is with 33% Stop (status).

2. Monster Dict: Its proc becomes either 50% or even 100% since despite Magic Ruin being universally useful--hence it seeing no JP reduction in my Thief proposals--like Speed Ruin, its rather...underwhelming as a proc compared to all the other book's procs. This even though Monster Dict has highest WP chance, partly because the WP variances between the four books are so slight as it is (by necessity), which is fine for the most part. Just not here when it's between a 33% of maybe reducing someone's MP by half of max...versus turning them permanently Undead, killing them with Flare and Stopping them. (Also, can we rename Monster Dict "Bestiary"? It's shorter anyway.)

3. Persia: As per one of Dokurider's older suggestions, this gets Speed +2 instead of Cashmere because Iran, Iran so far away.... *gets shot* But, yeah, besides that it, its stats remain the same since it and Javelin would different for neither to eclipse the other. This could maybe see a slight increase to 15% W-EV since I agreed with Malroth that Cloths could use an overall W-EV boost and maybe could see a slight decrease to 11 since Speed +2 is a lot; then again, Javelin is both better with Jump, comes innately with Shields & Heavy Armor since only Lancers can use Spears initially at present (hmmm...) and can be used with Two Hands. (My only other suggestion on how to improve this would be to give it +2 PA alongside its Initial: Protect, but that's a bit "meh" for a couple of reasons.)

4. Cashmere: By far my most ambivalent suggestion, my idea for this is a furtherance of Malroth's suggestion that Cloths get more W-EV. As such, I would suggest this lose its Item Attribute spot entirely and its stats become 10 WP and 45% W-EV. My initial version of this was originally going to suggest it become Forced Two Hands with 50% W-EV, but that still became too easily impossible hit just with Defend or Blind (rather than "only" nigh impossible to hit, meaning the AI will still target that unit). (My initial suggestion in general was having this add +2 MA alongside its initial: Shell, but like my initial Persia suggestion, that was "meh" for at least a couple of reasons.)

5. Ryozan Silk: This doesn't really need that much improvement since its presently the only Cloth worth using really. (Although as I've said, I've used Persia & Cashmere as they are now before; of course, that was before the perfumes were permanent IIRC and we all know I suck, so....) But, hell, if almost all the other equipment is getting improvements, might as well improve this a bit. It keeps its relatively unit "Initial: Reflect" status and instead just gets more W-EV as per Malroth's suggestion; I'm presently thinking 20% or 25% W-EV seems "fair", especially since that's mostly negated by Dancing anyway if a Dancer (who Dances) is using this.


Yeah....

At the very least, two changes to Persia & Cashmere alongside the changes Raven proposed for Knightswords saves two Item Attribute spaces...even if those get immediately gobbled up by Staves most likely.

[Gaignun]

I got time to kill, so I'll respond to some of those suggestions, Damned.  Your list is long, so my answers will be concise.

2. [PALADIN]: Reraise's CT increases from 0 to 2 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

Reraise has finally been made usable as of 1.39.  Its usefulness is limited by the AI's refusal to use it unless an ally is wounded, and its spammability is limited by its high MP cost for a Chivalry skill.

6. [PRIEST]: Priest's Speed increases from 8 to 9, MP decreases by 5, Male Priest's PA decreases from 8 to 7 (and at present its HP doesn't change).

I believe differences between each gender's stats is hard-coded and, at present, impossible to change.

19. [MEDIATOR]: Solution becomes Cancel: All Negative statuses and its JP cost increases from 100 to 200 JP.
20. [MEDIATOR]: Refute loses Charging & Performing & its ability to Cancel: All Negative statuses, becoming Cancel: All Positive statuses, and its JP cost decreases from 300 to 200 JP.

You are indirectly nerfing Mediators by increasing Refute's JP cost from 300 to 400 here.  Refute is fine as it is now (although I am comfortable with removing its ability to cancel charging/performing; that's what Throw Stone and Sinkhole are for).

22. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator's HP decreases by about 10 and Mediator's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.

You really think Mediator's are in line to have their HP nerfed?  Their high HP makes up for their unworkable primary skills.

24. [ORACLE]: Paralyze's X decreases from 60 to 55 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

Reducing Paralyze's X value is not necessary.  The counter to Paralyze is and always has been M-EV.

25. [ORACLE]: Sleep's CT increases from 4 to 5, its MP cost decreases from 24 to 20 and its X increases from 60 to 65.

For someone who thinks that Mimic Daravon is too swingy, are you sure you want to increase Sleep's X value?  I'm just asking here.

32. [NINJA]: Tsumazuku dies and Ninja gets something that's worth using, that it will actually use and that will still at least cancel or deny Haste.

I am earnest about my AoE skill that cancels Haste and does damage.  I'll repeat it here:

Kibaku Fuda (Exploding Tag): 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 10 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), M-EVable, 100% Cancel: Haste, Regen.

The idea is that the "100%" cancel together with damage puts Draw Out users in a Masamune loop.  If these users are wounded and do not have any other form of healing (and they often don't), they will use Masamune 100% of the time.  The HP recovered from one turn of Regen will not recover the damage Kibaku Fuda dealt, so they will eventually die.  Making Kibaku Fuda depend on SP both keeps its damage from being boosted like Black Magick and makes it feel at home on the Ninja skill set, which will also possess Speed +1.  Depending on how the AI uses this skill, it might be overpowered and in need of tweaks, but that can all be chalked up to growing pains.  Let's give it a chance.

The skill takes M-EV so that it can't be boosted by Hidden Knife, which is native to Ninja.

[KNIVES]: Throwing Knife's WP increases from 10 to 12 and maybe its Death Sentence proc decreases from 33% to 25% (especially if Death Sentence gets "buffed").

Throwing Knife's shtick is its Death Sentence proc, not its damage.  This change makes Throwing Knife less appealing to me.

5. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Knife's WP decreases from 11 to 9 since Kagesougi's powerful enough without its best Ninjato, sans Hidden Knife, buffing it and having the most WP.

I strongly disagree with this.  You're making the Ninja Knife vastly inferior to all other ninjatou by doing this.  As for Kagesougi, Hidden Knife's "Always: Transparent" is the problem, not Ninja Knife.

6. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Edge's WP increases from 9 to 11 since it has to compete with Kagesougi still causing Don't Move as it is.

Ninja Edge's WP is already 11, unless I'm missing something.  It's Don't Move proc should be increased to 50% to compete with Short Edge, however.

17. [STAVES]: Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)

This sounds overpowered.  Superior W-EV, +1 Speed, and elemental strengthening?  Give some of these boons to other staves.  For example, 20 W-EV would work better on Gold Staff, since Gold Staff is intended to be used as a melee weapon.

21. [GUNS]: Romanda Gun's WP decreases from 10 to 8.

22. [GUNS]: Mythril Gun's WP increases from 8 to 10.

You lost me on this one.  Mythril Gun gives +2 MA.  Romanda Gun gives nothing.  Do you still wish to swap their WP?

1. [OIL]: Remains "one-shot" & not applicable with Holy & Dark, but instead gains the ability to block Haste and perhaps even cancel it.

Oil is good enough!  Having it block Haste is going to make the ailment too good.  I even oppose having Oil lock reactions.  Having Oil lock reactions is going to make the spellgun + Oil combo even more destructive, as Projectile Guard will no longer counter it.

5. [DEATH SENTENCE]: Changes to cancel Reraise.

This fairly addresses your concern about Paladin's Reraise.  I like it.

The other stuff I do not feel strongly enough to comment on, although I must warn against making too many changes at once.  Mixing too many things up with each patch makes balance more difficult to achieve. 

[The Damned]

(Yes, I agree with you on the "too changed many things = bad balance" thing.)

The thing is, though, that even without these particular "controversial" changes, we kinda of passed the threshold of "too many changes" at once a while ago. "A while ago" being before FFMaster announced that he was basically retooling an entire class on top of everything else we were already asking of him.

I figure we might as well "go for broke" even if some stuff can wait, which is why I've said nothing about Poles and a few other things....

But...yeah, it's pretty inevitable that 139a is probably going to have a bunch of broken things one way or the other. FFMaster is only human (as unexcepted as enough;

Reraise has finally been made usable as of 1.39.  Its usefulness is limited by the AI's refusal to use it unless an ally is wounded, and its spammability is limited by its high MP cost for a Chivalry skill.

Well, to be "fair", the only reason that Reraise was "unusable" to begin with was because it was on White Magic...whose whole deal is healing people with a side-dish of attempting to murder them with Holy Elemental. Since, as you said, the AI won't use Reraise unless the enemy was injured, no one used it even though it was 100%, eschewed Faith and had the same cost it did now (I think); much like how no one uses Wall.

I suppose what "bothers" me if the instant aspect on top of the Death Sentence thing, it being able to self-target (because it just prolongs matches), Regen lasting (so long) past death and the enemy AI being rather dumb about positioning themselves near Dead units with Reraise. If Death Sentence status gets changed though, then I'll concede that might be enough.

I believe differences between each gender's stats is hard-coded and, at present, impossible to change.

Wouldn't it be possible by just making Priest's PA growth slightly lower though? It's not like it's terribly important either way, but now I'm curious....

You are indirectly nerfing Mediators by increasing Refute's JP cost from 300 to 400 here.  Refute is fine as it is now (although I am comfortable with removing its ability to cancel charging/performing; that's what Throw Stone and Sinkhole are for).

So you would be fine with them both costing 150 JP? Or do you think Refute should just not be changed? Talk Skill as a whole despite three skills being basically unusable by the AI at present?

I only really broke up Refute, aside from it needing to lose Cancel: Charging & Performing, to help fill space after killing Solution, since that thing is going to even more useless with Heretic probably going to Ninja.

You really think Mediator's are in line to have their HP nerfed?  Their high HP makes up for their unworkable primary skills.

They're arguably third in line after Priest and Thief. They're not at the front and Spellguns' current level of power is probably skewing my perception at least a little bit admittedly. Regardless, I don't see the need for that much HP between the types of weapon they get, being slightly faster than average, having slight more move than average and all their skills being instant. I also felt I needed to "compensate" for suggesting Oracle get more HP for Balance, but since that's probably no longer necessary, yeah....

Still, Mediators are hardly as toothless as people make them out to be even without Mimic Daravon and even with as many problems as their skill set still has.

Reducing Paralyze's X value is not necessary.  The counter to Paralyze is and always has been M-EV.

I was reducing Paralyze's X value less because it was problematic and more to give people incentive to use Oracle's Sleep. Oracle's Sleep is currently pretty much useless between Oracle's own Paralyze being cheaper, faster & way more effective, especially for mages, and Mediator's Mimic Daravon.

Regardless, are you saying you're fine with my suggestion for its JP to become higher?

For someone who thinks that Mimic Daravon is too swingy, are you sure you want to increase Sleep's X value?  I'm just asking here.

I think Mimic Daravon's "too swingy" because a) it's unavoidable without Finger Guard regardless of your M-EV, b) it doesn't care about Brave/Fury or Faith either and, the biggest "swingy" factor, c) it's instant. All of that make it vastly better than Oracle's Sleep, which has to also contend with getting sabotage'd by other casters, even on the user's own team; we've all seen Sleep hit only for a Summon Magic-using teammate to hit and wake the Slept target immediately after.

So...yeah, Oracle's Sleep becoming slightly more likely to hit doesn't seem like it would make Oracle's Sleep overpowered to me if that's what you're implying, especially on mages. It would just make it finally worth using.

I am earnest about my AoE skill that cancels Haste and does damage.  I'll repeat it here:

Kibaku Fuda (Exploding Tag): 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 10 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), M-EVable, 100% Cancel: Haste, Regen.

The idea is that the "100%" cancel together with damage puts Draw Out users in a Masamune loop.  If these users are wounded and do not have any other form of healing (and they often don't), they will use Masamune 100% of the time.  The HP recovered from one turn of Regen will not recover the damage Kibaku Fuda dealt, so they will eventually die.  Making Kibaku Fuda depend on SP both keeps its damage from being boosted like Black Magick and makes it feel at home on the Ninja skill set, which will also possess Speed +1.  Depending on how the AI uses this skill, it might be overpowered and in need of tweaks, but that can all be chalked up to growing pains.  Let's give it a chance.

The skill takes M-EV so that it can't be boosted by Hidden Knife, which is native to Ninja.

Oh, I concur. I just couldn't remember/find your suggestion for what the replacement would be and I got distracted by one of the suggestions in Raven's compiled boost being Dispel Magic becomes AoE 1 when that was only talked about a couple of times.

But, yeah, I completely get behind this. I'm so very sick of seeing Masamune so often as it's basically "unpunishable" presently, especially when no one is (somewhat understandably) using Slow 2 & Nameless Dance together as formerdeathcorps claimed worked against it.

Throwing Knife's shtick is its Death Sentence proc, not its damage.  This change makes Throwing Knife less appealing to me.

So noted. I'm most ambivalent about that particular suggestion anyway.

I strongly disagree with this.  You're making the Ninja Knife vastly inferior to all other ninjatou by doing this. As for Kagesougi, Hidden Knife's "Always: Transparent" is the problem, not Ninja Knife.

Ninja Edge's WP is already 11, unless I'm missing something.  It's Don't Move proc should be increased to 50% to compete with Short Edge, however.

Oh, I'm not saying "Always: Transparent" isn't a problem (when it comes to Kagesougi) However, considering that people want that stick around for some reason, I figure it would be "best" to then go after the second biggest offender in Ninjato: Ninja Knife. I'm just not sure why the Ninjato with +1 PA needs to be tied for the second strongest WP (after changes) if Kagesougi is all it's going to be used for (primarily). Maybe it could fall to 10 WP, but I'm just wary of it because Kagesougi is already overpowered as it is and isn't taking that huge of hit, as much it losing Don't Act should help.

As for Ninja Edge already being 11 WP, it goes to show that I've never used that thing; I think only one team ever has and it was to very little effect. As it is, Raven's suggestion has it at 9 WP, probably because of the 15% W-EV. I'm just wary that the 50% Don't Move (which Raven also suggested) still won't be enough versus Kagesougi, which will have a greater chance of causing Don't Move with it losing Don't Act. So if Ninja Edge is kept at 9 WP, then it will still be less valuable than Ninja Knife with Hidden Knife when it comes to Kagesougi if Ninja Knife has that much power.

So...yeah. Both of those suggestions are basically because Kagesougi is Kagesougi, though I guess I would be fine with them both becoming 10 WP instead.

This sounds overpowered.  Superior W-EV, +1 Speed, and elemental strengthening?  Give some of these boons to other staves.  For example, 20 W-EV would work better on Gold Staff, since Gold Staff is intended to be used as a melee weapon.

It probably is, though I'm used to making Healing Staff overpowered. (My Embargo version is probably stupidly overpowered for example.) I actually am ambivalent about the +1 Speed, but a lot of people seem(ed) to want that on Healing Rod and I personally really want the Strengthen Holy & Dark thing, though I suppose it's not like Golden Hairpin won't still have that....

But, yeah, the 20% W-EV is probably better off on Gold Staff, especially since it's what Dokurider originally suggested. I can't remember why I "switched" their W-EV suggestions. There was some reason.... Bah.

You lost me on this one.  Mythril Gun gives +2 MA.  Romanda Gun gives nothing.  Do you still wish to swap their WP?

Mythril Gun also hasn't really ever been used to my recollection, partly because of its inferior range. It's also partly because of the three classes that innately use guns, only Mediator really gives a damn about MA and relatively small boosts to MA aren't "doing" anything for Talk Skill (in neutral settings). It doesn't really help that Archer's two weapons with +2 MA are now quite usable (and good) and that it might get another one, which basically limits Mythril Gun as it is now to being used by Chemists & Mediators, non-elemental aspect aside.

The solution is probably to just change its Item Attribute to something more useful rather than switch the WP, but I honestly can't think of anything as evidenced by me still not being able to think of a shield and my "meh" Cloth suggestions.

Oil is good enough!  Having it block Haste is going to make the ailment too good.  I even oppose having Oil lock reactions.  Having Oil lock reactions is going to make the spellgun + Oil combo even more destructive, as Projectile Guard will no longer counter it.

Oh, I agree on both points. I don't think that Oil really needs a buff, even if I somewhat agree that non-elemental teams should be able to take some advantage of it. I definitely don't agree with it blocking Reactions anymore or, as you already know, with what FFMaster proposed about both making it last and affected by Holy & Dark.

So...this seems like the least "evil" option to attempt to appease people while also strengthening Nameless Dance, which a few people have been saying is toothless (alongside Dance as a whole) and helps it "Slow" people down. Admittedly, this suggestion is also because the AI's fixation on Haste annoys me, however understandable, and Masamune has, again, been running rampant & giving the finger to most attempts to Slow/deny Haste.

*has more time to kill than thou*

[Gaignun]

So you would be fine with them both costing 150 JP? Or do you think Refute should just not be changed? Talk Skill as a whole despite three skills being basically unusable by the AI at present?

I am of the impression that Refute removing buffs when it's being used defensively - or removing ailments when it's being used offensively - is an appropriate double-edged sword for its universal applicability.  Splitting Refute into two skills is like trading in this double-edged sword for two single-edged ones.  With that said, making the skills cost 150 JP is actually a buff, albeit a mild one.  I'd prefer to keep Refute in one piece, but if splitting it turns out to be more popular, then I would suggest making each skill cost 150 JP.

Oracle's Sleep is currently pretty much useless between Oracle's own Paralyze being cheaper, faster & way more effective, especially for mages, and Mediator's Mimic Daravon.

You're right about Paralyze being more useful than Sleep.  I personally shy away from Sleep because of its higher CT and JP cost.  Increasing Paralyse's JP cost to 150 solves half of that problem.  Reducing Sleep's CT to 3 can solve the other half.  Then Sleep will work just as nicely on 10 SP Oracles as Paralyze.  Sleep will probably need to have its Vert reduced to 0, though, to keep it balanced.  By the numbers, this makes Sleep and Paralyze nearly identical to each other.  I am fine with that, personally.

Mythril Gun also hasn't really ever been used to my recollection, partly because of its inferior range. It's also partly because of the three classes that innately use guns, only Mediator really gives a damn about MA and relatively small boosts to MA aren't "doing" anything for Talk Skill (in neutral settings). It doesn't really help that Archer's two weapons with +2 MA are now quite usable (and good) and that it might get another one, which basically limits Mythril Gun as it is now to being used by Chemists & Mediators, non-elemental aspect aside.

Noted.  We could always just swap the WP then remove the Romanda Gun for the time being.

[reinoe]

Noted.  We could always just swap the WP then remove the Romanda Gun for the time being.

I'm going to interject here.  I would be a sad panda if there is no 8 range gun.

[The Damned]

(Indeed, simpler solutions are often better.)

However, they are concise, which is why I never take them. Concise bad!

That said, that solution to Sleep vs. Paralyze vs. Mimic Daravon sounds "more" reasonable. Oracle's Sleep would definitely need vertical 0, though. Getting back to Mimic Daravon vs. Sleep, part of what bothers me about Mimic Daravon is that it has vertical 3, though in action that's rarely, if ever, been a factor, at least in ARENA.

I'm not sure about removing Romanda Gun entirely, if only because of its 8 Range. Then again, that would help out Long Bow.... Are you talking about merging Romanda Gun's range with Mythril Gun as well? Or just its WP? Because I could probably get behind former, but the latter is a bit of tougher sell.

As for splitting Refute, yeah, I'm aware it's purposely a double-edged sword, even if it loses Cancel: Performing & Charging. Again, the only real reason I "split" it is because with Ninja getting Heretic and AI not using Solution (or Preach or, for some reason, Persuade), Mediator could stand to have another skill that's actually, you know, useful. I suppose I could just taken my suggestion for Persuade--"Stall"--and had that replace Solution as well, but since Stop kinda competes with CT00...yeah.

I mean, if almost everyone is calling Mediator so toothless as to defend Mimic Daravon being an instant AoE Sleep, then a mild buff for Mediator shouldn't be too horrible. Right?

At the very least, splitting Refute apart would make it easier for people to tell just what the hell it's supposed to cancel since pretty much everyone was surprised about the Charging & Performing thing.

[Gaignun]

Ah, I forgot that Mythril Gun had shorter range than Romanda Gun, even after reading your post.  Yeah, Mythril Gun would get 8 range, as well.

As for Mediators, is the AI smart enough to use Solution on the opposing team?  I ask because I never bothered testing it.

[Otabo]

As for Mediators, is the AI smart enough to use Solution on the opposing team?  I ask because I never bothered testing it.

AI will definetly use Solution on enemy units if its set up with a non-damaging weapon or if it has no other damage sources. Other than that, I found that it is used very rarely.

Again, the only real reason I "split" it is because with Ninja getting Heretic and AI not using Solution (or Preach or, for some reason, Persuade)

Same with Preach; The AI does use it, but barely. But it's a lot harder to get the AI to use it though, unlike with Solution. I have sometimes seen it used sorta like how AI uses Reraise, and on occasion, used when a unit has a decent to high percentage of its HP missing, but overall, the AI is quite weird with Preach and when it decides to use it.

Persuade, on the other hand, I have never seen it used at all in any given situation. With that said, I kinda agree that Persuade desperately needs something done to it or it needs to die entirely. Because that thing is useless.

At the very least, splitting Refute apart would make it easier for people to tell just what the hell it's supposed to cancel since pretty much everyone was surprised about the Charging & Performing thing.

I like this idea myself. I would say give the Cancel: Charging/Performing part of Refute to Persuade, but doing that will most likely just make it a worse Throw Stone. Unless it's given a bit of AoE maybe; say AoE 1, Vert 0 or more range than Throw Stone or something.

[Gaignun]

How feasible is creating a status effect that locks the Attack command?  If specialty skills like Solution are tough to use because the AI would sooner attack, then we could slap this status effect on a new bag to prevent the AI from attacking.

[The Damned]

(*yawns because he's lazy*)

So...I finally decided to double check a couple of things about the latest iteration of ARENA in FFTPatcher and there doesn't seem like there are any accidental AI Behaviors that FFMaster did that's preventing the AI from using Persuade, Preach or Solution. Preach or Solution were updated, so the AI knows they add Status now, though they don't have "Target Enemy" or "Target Ally", which I doubt would change anything since Heretic shows that the AI knows what Innocent does anyway. Similarly, Persuade isn't changed at all, so I'm really not sure what the hell the problem is there since CT = 00 is usually at the top of the AI's list.

*looks at Last Dance*

Completely unrelated to what we're talking about now, Repel Knife's ISC is 1D and it actually is All Don't Act & Haste. So I'm not sure what the hell happened against Dokurider with it seemingly separating when I don't think he was blocking anything. I'll have to look at the video again....

I'll let someone else answer Gaignun's question since I still suck at coding, though that status effect obviously need to Block Berserk and maybe even Frog (or be canceled by both) as well.

AI will definetly use Solution on enemy units if its set up with a non-damaging weapon or if it has no other damage sources. Other than that, I found that it is used very rarely.

So basically only if it has Healing Staff, Murasame or one of the few (read: four) elemental weapons it innately has access to is absorbed and it has no other recourse? This despite three of those elemental weapons & Solution (read: the Innocent status) being anathema to each other?

Great.

Ironically, if Spellguns became Nether-shooting Spellguns, then Solution would have a bit more use since then their users wouldn't care about the Faith stat anyway. However, considering Oil exists, Solution in that context would still be inferior even against absorb unless they also block Oil, which is still somewhat unlikely on absorbers still.

So, unless (or perhaps even) we decide that Romanda Gun or Mythril Gun takes a page from Opera Vector and becomes a healing gun, Solution seems automatically outclassed by a combination of Heretic/Mushin no Shin on Ninja, Mediator having Blackmail, Insult & Mimic Daravon and Gokuu Rod existing. (That or make one of the Knives into a Healing Shiv.)

Same with Preach; The AI does use it, but barely. But it's a lot harder to get the AI to use it though, unlike with Solution. I have sometimes seen it used sorta like how AI uses Reraise, and on occasion, used when a unit has a decent to high percentage of its HP missing, but overall, the AI is quite weird with Preach and when it decides to use it.

I see. When formerdeathcorps reported that he had seen the AI use it, I thought it was just some type of "obscure" set-up as with Heretic, but if that's the case, then Preach should probably die too. Only reason I didn't suggest "killing" it was because, unlike Solution, no other skill adds Faith. The only thing that adds Faith is the Muramasa katana, but that's probably more than enough really, especially with Concentrate back, Hidden Knife still existing and Muramasa being compatible with both Two Swords & Two Hands.

Persuade, on the other hand, I have never seen it used at all in any given situation. With that said, I kinda agree that Persuade desperately needs something done to it or it needs to die entirely. Because that thing is useless.

I concur despite still finding it odd that AI isn't using it and wanting to "investigate" more. I think it would be better off becoming Single-target Add: Stop. This especially if (almost) everyone agreed that something as common as Hell Ivy has a change of causing AoE Stop, Chronos Tear now exists (cheaply) and Heal & Jade/Coral Armlet are likely to become more popular in use come 139 anyway.

I like this idea myself. I would say give the Cancel: Charging/Performing part of Refute to Persuade, but doing that will most likely just make it a worse Throw Stone. Unless it's given a bit of AoE maybe; say AoE 1, Vert 0 or more range than Throw Stone or something.

I have to disagree with that suggestion, especially with the AoE 1 aspect. Admittedly, I thought of giving the Cancel: Charging/Performing aspect its own separate ability after splitting up Refute, but then I realized both the Throw Stone issue and that it quickly would become obnoxious, especially with all the other ways that Mediators have of shutting down mages anyway. Additionally, unlike Throw Stone, it can go through enemies that are in the way since it isn't Direct and thus doesn't need Line of Sight, which is one of the things that balances Throw Stone since the M-EV aspect of that is moot.

So making it AoE 1 to try to compensate for Throw Stone essentially being 100% would probably end up making mages rather worthless when they already have still have problems as it is. That or it would end up still being inferior to Mimic Daravon due to that still having Vert 3 even with as common as Defense Ring currently is.

That basically makes the very idea of it kinda of lose-lose really.

That said, having thought about it this, I did have an ability that I was going to suggest before I figured that Preach could maybe stay around for another iteration:


Hush: Rng 3, AoE 0, Vert 3, Add: Silence - Costs 100 JP.


With that, Mediator still gets anti-mage technique since it's losing one, continues its competition with Oracle without obviating Oracle's Silence Song and gets another 100 JP ability after losing three of the four and, most importantly, it gets a useful technique that it will actually use.

Between it getting redone Persuade/Stall, Hush & a mini-boost from Refute getting broken up, Mediator should no longer be as "toothless" as almost everyone is claiming it is, even if something eventually happens to Insult or Mimic Daravon.

[The Damned]

(*finishing up editing videos*)

While waiting for that Mediator proposal to get some type of response one way or the other, I'll say something else that's been bugging me as of late: Tornado & Quake seem like the might need to be slowed down to CT 3 (again). They actually hurt and are usable now, but for something that can hit that hard over AoE 2, CT 2 seems a bit...short.

Then again, it might be Scholar MA partly skewing things, but still....

[Malroth]

Idea   Black Magic: Replaces Poison 300JP 20MP  CT 5 Target self adds Faith,Reflect,Defend

[Dokurider]

I don't know about that skill Malroth, but I do know that we need more access to Reflect.

[FFMaster]

The problem is the AI doesn't like statii like Protect/Shell/Reflect.

[Reks]

The problem is the AI doesn't like statii like Protect/Shell/Reflect.

The units I had in Late To The Party used Protect and Shell 2 well enough.

And they'll use it over other things that could be more useful at that moment. It's not that they don't like it, Protect/Shell is just makes the AI wonky(er).

[Malroth]

But it does like defend for some unknown reason so using it as a way of telling the AI to buff itself seems to work.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, the idea would definitely use that because of Defend. It's part of the reason wy the AI whores Nurse.)

That said, I can't get behind it at all, though more because of Self Faith. I could maybe get behind Self Reflect & Defend as a replacement for Heretic on Thief given that's losing at least one ability and no one, including myself, has thought of a "suitable" Houkouton replacement to give to them for it. However, Thief would definitely need to lose Quickening if that was the case (which I think needs to happen anyway) since Reflect & Defend is already rather...obnoxious with enough evasion, which Thief definitely has.

It would probably be better to "package" Reflect with healing or Regen (or Reraise) if we want the AI to be able to use it. Reflect lasting "forever" with its 0 CT, especially if its former CT is going to Berserk to make that finite, and Reflect Mail & Reflect Ring existing make me extremely ambivalent to this though, as much as another source would be "nice".

[Gaignun]

How feasible is creating a status effect that locks the Attack command?  If specialty skills like Solution are tough to use because the AI would sooner attack, then we could slap this status effect on a new bag to prevent the AI from attacking.

I'm scratching my quote here to propose something that's equally effective, yet is much easier to realise: implement a bag that heals on hit.

This is one of those things that looks stupid on paper, but has a real purpose: it takes the attack command away from the wearer.  For reasons unbeknownst to me, the AI likes to smack opponents even when there's no reason to.  By implementing a healing weapon that is usable by all classes (ie. a bag), players can forcibly prevent any unit from attacking.  For example, Mediators use abilities like Solution when they have literally no other form of offense available.  If you want a Mediator to spam Solution, you need to deprive that Mediator of all offensive abilities, including the attack command.  Unfortunately, Mediators do not have access to a healing weapon, so you can't pull this off without Equip Magegear or Equip Heavy Blade.

We don't even need a new bag for this.  Simply make one of the existing bags heal on hit.  The H and P Bags are the best candidates.

In the interest of making "Innocent" strategies effective, it is also worthwhile to go ahead with The Damned's proposal of splitting Refute into two abilities.  A Mediator with Refute attempts to remove the Innocent status on friendly Flash Hat wearers.  This is problematic for teams that try to use a Mediator for Solution and an Innocent Ninja for -ton skills.

[Dokurider]

I was testing out the Air Knife today and, yes, it does proc alright...Darkness.

[Barren]

I don't know if anyone said this already but the other night me and FFMaster were talking the other night about changing the magic guns to nether guns where they shoot nether fire/bolt/ice. Formula can be same as the nether spells for wizards, less brave = more damage

And perhaps a status gun as well. If anything that can replace mythril gun it can be a gun that inflicts status.