FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[reinoe]

There's Holy Water for undead.  Wiznaibus(Undead Proc) followed by Autopotion is too powerful of a hard counter. 

spoiler: re:Monk Overhaul

Is that really necessary?  I mean Monks are not tearing up the charts when it comes to damage that they deal.  Furthermore unless it's a "theme team" like CT5HOLY's "Do Not Disturb", monks have 70 Fury to maximize their damage.  It also means physical damage dealt to them is sorta maximized.  I'm just not seeing the monk skill as problematic.

spoiler: Quickening

I'd like to see quickening stick around for one more version.  The reason for this is because while it can be potentially problematic on long matches, Long matches are something not of the norm in the game.  Furthermore, even though Dokurider unlocked the A.I. behavior for quickening, there's still no guarantee that the A.I. will abuse it.  I'm indifferent to the MP cost of it being increased though.

spoiler: Archer Job Skills having their JP costs decreased

I'd rather not see their JP decreased.  The skills themselves are INCREDIBLY USEFUL.  Yes capitalized for extra emphasis.  Take "Arm Aim" for example.  It's instant, costs no MP, and because of it typically being combined with guns, has huge range.  Compare with Blackmail.  It costs 100jp is also instant and has a range of three.  In fact Blackmail may have to be increased to 200 considering that it's more efficient than "Arm Aim"

spoiler: Cure Spells

We could actually rearrange these like how we did with Black Magic.  And it's also thematic with what Eternal recommends.

Kill off Cure 1 completely and replace it with whatever maybe Nether cure???
Kill off Cure 4 completely and make it some sort of Healing for the entire team or have a large AoE.  If we really want to get ambitious with it we can make it like "White Wind" from Final Fantasy 7 and have it cure status too, for a hefty MP cost of course.
Make "Cure 2-->Cure 1" 
Make Cure 3-->Cure 2".

spoiler: Time Mage

I know I mentioned it once already but I'm just repeating it for emphasis.  As much as giving them shields is the more creative option and gives them more choices, Speed 10 is the better choice simply because of the mid-charge issue.

spoiler: Kagesougi

It should lose "Don't Act".

[RavenOfRazgriz]

reinoe, the Monk overhaul actually buffs low-damage Monks and increases their setup variety.  "Overhaul" != "Nerf".  In this case, the Monk (and in particular Punch Art secondary and Monks running setups other than maximum PA) get buffed while max-damage Monks stay mostly the same or maybe become very slightly stronger. 

I don't see a reason why Priest needs Mass-AoE HP Healing.  That's what Summoner and Bard are for.  Cure 1 and Cure 4 are niche but still useful on certain teams, and now it feels like people are just trying to stretch them.  Cure 4 is notable because it bypasses Reflect, giving it use on teams with Reflect Mail and Reflect Ring that still want to run a Priest as their primary healer instead of a Summoner since Reflect dissipates on death to allow the Raise 2.  Cure is probably the main "weak" skill that could do with being changed in some way but it works well enough for what it is.

[The Damned]

(Even if Cure and Cure 4 stay the same, Cure 3 does seem like it needs a bit more leverage over Cure 2 or...something.

Forgetful EDIT: Ugh. I am so damn bad getting distracted considering how constantly I poorly multi-task, but anyway, I on't sure why there needs to be four types of Cure anyway. Seems like we would just kill Cure 2 [or Cure 3], keep Cure 4 as it is, maybe expand Cure 1 to AoE 2 [though that kind steps on Regen] and then turn the "dead" one in something else like Refresh or Nethers Cure [intentional "typo"].)

I didn't literally mean there's "nothing" that gets rid of Undead, reinoe. I just meant that the only consistent thing to get rid of Undead is Holy Water, which still sees only moderate use at best of the status heal Items. Outside of that, literally the only other thing that cures Undead is Refute, which "cures" pretty much everything save Dead, even Charging & Performing (when it really shouldn't).

As for the other things in that post, the only thing I want to add to at present is that I agree that Snipe shouldn't have any of its skills decreased in terms of JP, though I could maybe see the Aims being slightly cheaper. Otherwise, they're correctly priced. That said, the other Don't Act abilities are "oddly" priced enough--Paralyze is also 100 JP and Silf is "only" 150 JP--to make me think that Blackmail really doesn't need to cost double its current cost even with Arm Aim being highest.

Still, I suppose it's one more think consider when thinking about Mediator.

[Dokurider]

Make Cure instant, so that they can save themselves from Poison.

[Gaignun]

I'd rather not see [Snipe skill's] JP decreased.

You really think Leg Aim is worth 200 JP?  Don't Move is one of the lousiest of status ailments.  It only shuts down melee classes with zero support, healing, or range abilities.  Time Mage's Don't Move costs only 100 JP and has an AoE of 2.  Execute is another funny one.  Considering that most archers use guns, spending 200 JP to do what simply one more bullet can do is kind of silly.  Unless I'm failing to see some powerful hidden purpose here, Execute is only good on bow users faced against opponents that stack P-EV.  And in that case the bow user has other problems.

At the very least, I'd like to see the JP cost of these two skills reduced.

Cure 4 is notable because it bypasses Reflect...

If we're going to keep Cure 4 around for that niche application, can we at least reduce its CT and JP to make it more accessible?  Right now, it's competing with Murasame, items, and gun healing, and those options are better because they're instant.

[TrueLight]

This is probably a bad idea, but couldn't we also combine Cure 4 & Wall? I rarely see the two used and a combination of the two might seem more appealing. Something like Full Heal + Protect/Shell on a single target would make a great combo.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I'd be fine with that, Gaignun.  Making Cure 4 have a shorter CT and MP cost and Cure 1 be instant (and maybe also bypass Reflect) should be enough I think.

[The Damned]

(*facepalms at wasting an hour and a half trying to re-render things that were already re-rendered*)

I could get behind Cure becoming instant and Cure 4 being quicker & lower MP. That still doesn't really solve Cure 2 being "better" than Cure 3 though.

I similarly can get behind Leg Aim getting lowered in cost I guess. Execute is something I've never really behind though, if only because it seems so incredibly niche given Guns have always been more popular than both types of Bows outside of when Hunting Bow was causing 100% Don't Move. With Concentrate coming back, Execute is even more useless really....

That said, with everything else being proposed, even if it won't probably ultimately help it, I can get behind Execute's JP getting lowered too. This if only because it's easier than getting rid of it and trying to think of something else, especially with all the other proposals flying around.

All of Snipe's other JP costs are more than fine though, especially the Breaks and Cover Fire.

Speaking of Cover Fire...what exactly is happening with that? I remember people still thinking it was too "swing-y" in its damage and it really, really is.

[Dokurider]

I don't understand what's wrong with Always: Berserk. If they were Always: Berserk, we can change Berserk's CT to something reasonable, instead of lasting forever and ever.

[The Damned]

(Hmmm...Always: Berserk could possibly work.)

Much like Cursed Ring, due to it being such a simple "solution" for Genji Helmet and Salty Rage not having to "die". Of course, it being simple is why I didn't even think of it; simple solutions are anathema to me.

Of course, there was also the issue of me kind of being ready to kill off Salty Rage for a while since I had wanted Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet to stay around until Raven's latest. Well, that and last time it was Always: Berserk, it was either overpowered or underpowered due to Always: Slow with nothing remotely in the middle. With it possibly blocking Blind now too, which is the only way to stop Concentrate...yeah.

Shrug. It's definitely a possible solution.

[Malroth]

Biezen bolt needs a nerf down to 6 or 5x MA

[Eternal]

Random thoughts:

-FFM, you've messed with Golem's AI before. Would it be possible to remove the AI check for Protect/Shell/Regen that looks for the target's HP being below 100%? With that check removed, the AI would hopefully start throwing Protect/Shell/Regen out before units get damaged.

-Since we have Movements that add Fury/Faith, can we get Movements that subtract the user's Fury/Faith upon movement?

-I'm really not liking MP Restore. It almost completely outclasses Absorb MP and Carbuncle (which, IMO, heals too much MP at present also). If I had to make a suggestion, I'd suggest that MP Restore trigger at 50% HP or below.

[Dokurider]

Anti-Warpath might trigger Chicken though, but that's easily countered with a Chicken Immunity. Otherwise, no opinion.

MP Restore is fine. It's effectiveness, like almost all reactions, varies. When you're up against a Lore team and are constantly getting showered in damage, you're the MP Sampo. But up against a team with nothing but Two Handed Air Knives, Hawk's Eyers and Pilgrimage Spellguns, MP Restore is about as useful as having nothing equipped at all.

[Eternal]

Also, talking to CT5Holy about this, I wonder. Does Move = 0 conserve 20 CT?

[Dokurider]

I can confirm that. I used Move = 0 as a key component for my Jumping Cursed Thief Strategy. Theoretically, he was so fast, he can jump repeatedly with only 1 or 2 CTs inbetween, making him close to invincible. Didn't work out so well in practice because he wouldn't spam Quickening, but knowing what I know now about Quickening...

[The Damned]

(Still working on that compiled list. It's mostly finished, actually. I'm just simultaneously editing an hour long match and had to deal with sleep and my bugs list getting wiped yesterday. Regardless, I should have it up within about an hour.)

There is no reason for their to be Reverse-Warpath or Reverse-Pilgrimage abilities. They would be possible, yes, but a lot of times teams do too little damage to each other with just 40/40 & Unyielding as it is. Either of those would make things even worse, especially if "we" are agreeing on changing Spellguns over to Nether spells.

That would make Spellguns even more powerful than they are now, since Nether Spells would become required to damage the user of the spellgun.

Let's not, shall we?

No opinion on the two other things.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

-Since we have Movements that add Fury/Faith, can we get Movements that subtract the user's Fury/Faith upon movement?

So you hate Phoenix Blade for drawing out games and want to add Movements that can make units pretty much 100% unkillable except against very specific moves?

...

-I'm really not liking MP Restore. It almost completely outclasses Absorb MP and Carbuncle (which, IMO, heals too much MP at present also). If I had to make a suggestion, I'd suggest that MP Restore trigger at 50% HP or below.

Absorb MP isn't really comparable to MP Restore.  They function completely differently.  They physically cannot out-class one another because they counter and work with completely different things.  Carbuncle is kind of like the middle-area between the two of them.

[Malroth]

Idea
Wizard staff 10WP  Half: Holy/Dark Immune:Silence, Berseerk

[Gaignun]

While we're discussing giving Berserk a CT (which is a good idea), I would also like to propose giving Blind a CT, as well.  The reason for this is that the AI lacks the foresight to reliably cleanse this ailment.  For example, if a melee unit with Antidote is blinded, it will choose to attack at 50% odds rather than use Antidote.  Keep the CT long (60-90) so that Blind is still debilitating, but make it finite to curb the odds of losing by retardation.

Idea
Wizard staff 10WP  Half: Holy/Dark Immune:Silence, Berseerk

That staff is a little overpowered, Malroth.  Putting both elemental and status resistance on a staff is wildly attractive to mages that don't make strong use of weapons.

[Barren]

Maybe if you took off half holy/dark that should be balanced enough