FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[RavenOfRazgriz]

That is random and kinda dumb.

The thing people forget with Ignore Height is that all Movements DON'T need to be made equal.  Ignore Height, Fly, Jump +3, and Teleport in 99% of cases do the exact same thing - allow you to ignore the map's terrain and go wherever you want.  Each one has its own nuances and are better/worse in different situations but the general point is the same.  The main thing is availability - if you already run Lancer somewhere, that character doesn't need to open Fly, Teleport, or Jump +3 because Ignore Height is much cheaper to get and pretty much the same.

Of the four, Ignore Height IS probably the weakest because it has no secondary perk.  Jump +3 can negate Fall Damage and cross large horizontal chasms to somewhat mimic Fly/Teleport, Fly (if you merge it with Float) would allow you to ignore Water panels and other such things, and Teleport allows you to bypass walls.  Due to this, I could see changing it to some degree... but it should mostly stay how it is.  This way, the Physical and Magical trees both have two "ignore Terrain" options - Jump +3 and Ignore Height on the Physical end, and Teleport and Fly on the Magical end, with the stronger ones being on the Magical side to force Physical units to either spend more JP for quality or go with something slightly weaker.  It adds options and depth and those things are good.  Not everything needs to be created equal to be useful and an option.

[The Damned]

(While I'm not sure that just thinking about Ignore Height becoming more useful is "kinda dumb" even if it is impossible for everything to be of equal use and still be differentiated....)

That said, I will concur that it is an immensely low priority compared to everything else, especially since no one really uses it as it is. I was just musing out loud since it's in at the bottom of the Movement "hierarchy" that Teleport dominates (when it comes to affecting actual movement).

At least it has a use, though, however outclassed. What do you think "should" be done with Defend, Raven? Just let continue to linger there so the newer people learn not to pick it and learn from their mistakes? Like Monster Talk, it currently has no real use. Unlike Monster Talk, however, which may eventually have a real use when/if ever monsters get added to ARENA, Defend's problems stem how the AI utterly abuses the status of it at present as seen with Nurse; the same Nurse which obviates the need to even have Defend as a Support really.

All that and it taking an Action seem to make rather unfeasible; of course, considering it can't be "fixed" by just making it not take Action since that would be utterly abusable with Blind....

I'm tempted to ask the same of Move=0, but considering that's so very new, I'll give that at least a few versions to linger and see whether it gets ever any use or not; I already said what I wanted to about Move -1.

[reinoe]

Change "Defend" to "Status Defend UP" and it lowers the ct of negative status by 33 percent.  Instead of it being an action it's just innate.  I have no idea how to program such a thing though. 

16HRS later edit: I've seen a team use Move=0 (DarkxFatal's Shadows Unending).  Although the team using move=0 wound up losing the matchup 1 vs 3, the outcome could have been different if the Scholar in question simply continued to spam Shadow Flare instead of wasting time casting Death on a Squire named Trollbait equipped with Escutcheon+Leather Mantle+40 Faith.  So yeah, the only team using Move=0 lost in a very close match.  Move=0 helped because it saved the unit 20ct a turn. 

[Gaignun]

Move=0 helped because it saved the unit 20ct a turn. 

How about just turning Move=0 into something that saves CT per turn?  Something like -1 move, but moving uses 10~20 fewer CT.  This falls in line with the "Move-CT UP" idea I had, but probably didn't announce.  Is this possible?

[FFMaster]

Well, yes, pretty much anything is possible. It just takes time and effort. As long as all the mechanics are laid out and the majority is happy, then I can give it a go.

[The Damned]

(I suppose I should have clarified "ways to change Defend without basically killing it off" like how Chrono Trigger "killed" Sunken State even though they use the same spot.

An affects-negative-status-only, reverse (?) Spellbound could be interesting though, even if I don't ultimately now how to feel about it.)

I suppose I should still do this even though I still can't think of solutions for things for most things. Therefore, I'll just break this up into a couple of formal suggestions and a list of formal questions about if other things should be changed.

First, the Third Formal List of Suggestions™ is much smaller than the first:

1. Please make Wish's success rate 100% or close to 100%: Right now, even before taking Poison's buff screwing it over into account, Wish is not worth the 200 JP IMO. Even if it's "some" revival, most of the time, it just leads the unit get horribly killed again unless they can like heal close-to-max and then gets the reviver murdered because it's close-range only. The fact that it restores so little HP is understandable considering there's Monk's Revive, but the fact that it has exact same rate of success makes no sense, especially since it's still close-range. Only Phoenix Down heals less and that at least has 4 range most of the time and is 100% of the time. Something needs to change here....

2. Please change "Alacrity" to "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and "Ramia Harp" to "Lamia Harp": Self-explanatory, really. I mean, I called Alacrity "Focus" without even realizing it just last page and FFMaster called it the same in response, so....

3. Please make Hidden Knife's W-EV 0%: If Transparent is really supposed to be negating the Evade of the user, then it should be made more apparent and there's really no reason that Hidden Knife should have W-EV if that's case since it wouldn't matter. As it stands now, it would seem that Transparent users can still physically evade things, which apparently isn't what's supposed to be happening.

4. Should the extra Item Attribute space go through, please give Salty Rage "Block: Blind" in addition to its Initial: Berserk: Before I hadn't wanted to suggest that since its Item Attribute is tied to Genji Helmet now, which is already better than it. With the possibility of separation, getting over one of Berserk's weaknesses seems like it should go exclusively to it if ever wants to see real feasibility. It should probably get more than that, such as evasion that I suggested in the first List and/or "Block: Berserk" since that wouldn't interfere with "Initial: Berserk". I just needs to do something should the Initial: Berserk be lost, which Genji Helmet already achieves by way of "defense"/HP.

6. Please Replace Sprint Shoes with the Neutral: All Element Accessory: When it comes to making Crystal Shield's Item Attribute more useful, everyone pretty much agreed that it should go to an accessory and that Rainbow Staff should be buffed. With regards to the former, though, even with the Item Attribute extension that Raven is working on, there's no space. All the accessory space has been used since basically the beginning of ARENA and a lot of it fairly recent. As such, I would suggest that the least used Accessory (besides Salty Rage) be replaced and I'm pretty sure that's Sprint Shoes. Of course, with the extension, you could just give Sprint Shoes "Neutral: All Elements" on top of +1 Sp and it would probably finally see some use, but I'm not sure how I feel about that.... Ultimately, it's up to you as usual FFMaster.

Damn it, I think I forgot something. Oh well.

****

I suppose here is the First Formal List of Questions™:

1. Should there be any upgrading of Poles?: I've been trying to think of what, if anything, could be done to make them more usable without turning them into the obnoxious Two-Handed (Swedish) Murder Machines they were more than a year ago. So far, I've been able to come up with anything. ...I'm no longer sure, however, that they need to be improved though. I figure since I can't decide, I might as well make one team that focuses on them in the meantime.

2. Should Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp be improved in the face of Bloody Strings?: At present, there seems to be very little incentive to use the other two Harps with their iffy procs when they have the same power as something that drains HP 100% of the time and thus only backfires against Undead units. I know that Lamia Harp has seen a bit of use, but I honestly don't think anyone has ever used Fairy Harp. So, should the two be improved in some way? Or should Bloody Strings be nerfed? Or neither? Both?

3. Should Sasuke Knife be Improved?: Right now, it sees very little use because of it's basically automatically inferior to Hidden Knife's Always: Transparent in almost every instance, even for classes that don't automatically have Two Swords. So should it be boosted in some way? Or should Hidden Knife be weakened?

4. Should Masamune be Further Weakened?: Right now, despite the nerf to linearity, it still seems rather...overpowering. Not as busted as before, but it seems to outright obviate the Haste spells and the improved Regen & Poison spells. This when it's already in the same Job Class as Murasame, which is itself still kind of "suspect" in terms of power. Perhaps it's because I expected for Poison's buff to actually mean something, but with everyone running to Masamune (and why wouldn't they when it's 100% guaranteed?), that seems to not be happening for better or for worse. I remember people earlier talking about it should maybe be limited to one person or even just the user. Would that be acceptable change still if this is necessary? Does Masamune just need to change to something else by necessity? Or is it fine...if kind of obnoxiously prevalent? [/loaded question]


I guess that's "it". I was going to ask about Feather Boots, but like Poles, I'm no longer so sure that those needs changes or "improvements".


P.S. Since this happened while I was typing: Oh, so Move = 0 saves CT? I thought since the Movement was reduced to 0, "Moving" was automatically counted. If that's the case, then it has plenty of use then and is on the right class (unlike Move -1 currently). [/nagging]

[Dokurider]

1. No comment.
2. Sure whatever
3. Sure whatever
4. No comment.
6 (?). Sprint Shoes already see plenty of use, especially for Armor classes.

1. Nah
2. Bloody Strings is clearly heads and shoulders above the other harps. It could probably stand a WP drop, although I doubt that'll fix it.
3. Maybe. Ninjas obviously avoid it like the plague. But Thieves find it useful for adding speed + damage while keeping their evasion intact. I guarantee you that Squires would use the shit out of Sasuke Knife if they had access to them.
4. Masamune is still the number one provider of Haste. Is that a problem?

Move - 1, useless. Right.

[The Damned]

(I didn't say that Move -1 was useless. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I said it's in the wrong class, like Equip Clothing currently is. Paladins have no use for Move -1, which would be far more appealing to mages, Bards and Dancers and even Archers. Considering the 250 JP requirement applies for every class you take, including your Primary and Secondary, making sure that a class can use its RSMs well or at least has sensible ones is at least somewhat important.)

Similarly, I never said that Sprint Shoes were unused. I just said they were the least used of the oldest accessories. This is going off my admittedly spotty memory of how little it's seen use--since it's not like all the old teams are around anymore--versus how long it's been around. Obviously Salty Rage sees less use if we're going with stuff that's more or less been around from the beginning, which is why I exempted it since its purpose is more "unique" than +1 Sp.

Really, what else what other accessory you cut for or merge with Neutral: All Elements? Everything else feels a more important "niche" aside from maybe Rubber Shoes or one of the mantles, but mantles just got redone and Rubber Shoes didn't get redone too long ago either. I'm curious.

As for Masamune being the one provider of Haste, yeah, it sort of is. Outright obviating one of the few things (multi-target Haste) that Time Mage could still do well--hence why everyone's agreeing they need to be a buff--is rather a clue. This is further compounded by it still happening at 100%...with Regen. It's not necessarily an "OP" problem though and Time Mage is getting boosted anyway, but yeah, that's kind of why I'm asking.

[FFMaster]

You want useless accessories? Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist.

As far as the placement of RSM goes, it's more to fit the theme of the class rather than use. For Move-1, nobody could really decide who would use it, so we just shoved it onto a class that almost everyone unlocks lol.

[Dokurider]

And I'm asking how well does it sit with people having the Haste job is Draw Out and not Time Magic, not why. Or maybe it's JP cuts will allow Time Magic to shine again with Slow 2/Stop and make being the Haste King unnecessary? Who would have thought a skillset that had flippin' Lifebreak in it would be so rarely used?

I've been tempted to use Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist several times before, but the evade they offer is just too low to use over +2 PA/MA.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

The Damned, you should see the post I'm actually replying to and stop assuming I'm always replying to you.  I was replying to the post right above me (Dokurider's), which is clear since his post outright says "this is probably random and kind of dumb" to which I reply "That is random and kind of dumb."  www.

I think Defend is fine as a 0 JP AI manipulation option.  It just needs to be on a class that benefits from CT / AI manipulation naturally and not Squire.  It allows you to pace a unit's turns backwards to ensure it falls into the Speed tier you want instead of your Speed synch being messed up by a Move-Wait, which is good if it's in the right place and easy to grab.

Move-CT UP is a very convoluted method of essentially making a Speed +1 Movement skill.  If that's what you want to do, make a Speed +1 Movement skill.  It's simpler, to the point, and slightly better since it works with Jump and a couple other nice things that Move-CT UP wouldn't.  It also doesn't need to replace Move = 0 (a skill that is niche but actually useful) to do so as there are still quite a few "unclaimed" Movement as I recall.

Wish -> 100% Accuracy... a better option would be to increase the range to 3.  Right now Item's main thing is its consistency, which in Phoenix Down's case is a 100% revival.  Revive's main thing is that it hits a lot with a decent HP gibe without relying on Brave/Faith.  Raise's main thing is that it heals for a LOT of HP at high range.  Giving Wish 3 range would make it unique for non-Throw Item users as it'd be solid target-independent accuracy (similar to Revive) with acceptable range (similar to Throw Item - Phoenix Down), but it would be cheaper than Phoenix Down as a secondary and keeps your Support free as long as you can use other stuff in Basic Skill and don't need other specific items such as Ether or Hi-Potion.  This is a better option because it gives Wish unique strengths instead of just making it from a more expensive, inferior Phoenix Down into a more expensive, slightly less inferior Phoenix Down.

Salty Rage / Immune: Blind, yeah sure, but it should also be given to Genji Helmet.  The HP offered by Genji Helmet isn't something you can say is a boon over Salty Rage because all Helmets give HP of roughly the same amount.  The HP is a property of things that get equipped in that slot and is expected by default - it not giving HP would be seen as a direct flaw, whereas on Salty Rage we never expect it to give HP to begin with.  Salty Rage also has the bonus of working on any class instead of just armored ones, relevant for Berserk Stone Gunners (which do good damage when not shooting your own guys as FDC and I showed ages back), Ninjas, Squires, and Geomancers to name a few.  Just because you might generally gravitate toward Genji Helmet on an armored class (because this allows you an additional PA point among other things) doesn't mean Salty Rage is inferior simply because of scope - not only are there equipment combinations on Armor classes where Salty Rage is superior pending what you need your Berserker to have as traits, but there are all the cases where Genji Helmet is just off the table entirely as a viable option.  Scope is a thing too, remember.

Sasuke Knife is really bad (along with most Ninjato and several other weapon types as a whole) but it's probably going to have to wait until 1.40 I'm thinking.  It looks like this update already has enough important content to juggle.

Sprint Shoes... unused?  ...Wtf u smoken champ.  A lot of the (good) teams across Arena's history have made use of Sprint Shoes, especially as damage has gone from everything being a pea shooter over to being able to do actual relevant damage that doesn't make Y U SO DERP 100% win every matchup every time.  Genji Gauntlet and Power Wrist, as mentioned, are generally the most worthless.  They fill a very very very specific niche on setups that are most often not that great anyway, and if truly needed their properties could probably just be added to Mantles by juggling their existing passive effects a bit.  Kill those LONG before you even CONSIDER killing Sprint Shoes.

[Gaignun]

Move-CT UP is a very convoluted method of essentially making a Speed +1 Movement skill.  If that's what you want to do, make a Speed +1 Movement skill.  It's simpler, to the point, and slightly better since it works with Jump and a couple other nice things that Move-CT UP wouldn't.

Move-CT UP's CT boost would work only if the unit moves and would not contribute to skills that use SP in their formula (like Jump as you mentioned).  Therefore, it has less potency than Speed +1.  Also, its CT boost is more effective for units with low SP, providing a mild buff to such units should they equip it.  (Actually, Move-CT UP favours the faster units.  Got my numbers mixed up!)  Finally, (and on a more personal note,) it falls in line with Move-HP UP and Move-MP UP as a movement skill that boosts one of the three GUI stats.

Then again, I'm not contributing to FFT Arena's code, so I can't expect anyone to implement Move-CT UP over Speed +1.  If it's as convoluted as you say, then forget it.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Speed +1 is also better for units with lower Speed though because of how higher Speed has a tapering effect...

Also, Speed +1 fits into the Move +1 / Jump +1 trio of skills that give a hard boost to stats on the far left of the stat window, get at me.  (If there's room there's no reason not to do both but Move-CT would definitely require a lot more effort for what's personally an overall less appealing skill.)

[Gaignun]

Yeah, I misinterpreted my inequality sign before posting that.  Speed +1 is better for faster slower (must be the hunger) units, indeed.  You got a point about fitting in with Move +1 and Jump +1.  I just feel that Speed +1 on a move ability is incredibly powerful.  I would assign it a JP cost of 500 at minimum.

[The Damned]

(Oh, right. I forgot ask: "What it's going to happen to Spin Fist vs. Houkouton? Do people still want Houkouton's MP to be reduced to 0? Or...?"

Also, I reiterate that I think Bizen Boat needs to be M-EVadable. Speaking of that, Mage Masher in the Master Guide says it procs Silence instead of Bizen Boat for some reason despite the fact that it was accurate before 138d.)

Again, I didn't say that Speed Shoes were unused. I said they seem to be the least used. If people are fine with getting rid of Power Wrist and/or Genji Gauntlet to make way for the "Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil" accessory, then I'm more than fine with that even though I've personally used both and know other teams have. Something's got go or change accessory-wise though.

I also said I wasn't counting the mantles since they all just got changed to be actually worth using.

That said, replacing Power Wrist and/or Genji Gauntlet seems more complicated than Sprint Shoes since they had parity, which means if one goes, then the other has to. So if they both go, what becomes of the other's spot? Similarly, would this mean that Bracer and Magic Gauntlet "should" get some P-EV and M-EV respectively to "compensate"?

This is not say they shouldn't change over Sprint Shoes if that's what "everyone" really wants, but it's yet more to think about.

As far as the placement of RSM goes, it's more to fit the theme of the class rather than use. For Move-1, nobody could really decide who would use it, so we just shoved it onto a class that almost everyone unlocks lol.

That's understandable, especially since Paladin's never had a Movement and a lot of people do use it. Thing is, though, is that Move -1 literally seems the least useful to it of all classes, so it really seems like it should be on something else that doesn't have a Movement already like, say, Ninja or even Squire.

And I'm asking how well does it sit with people having the Haste job is Draw Out and not Time Magic, not why. Or maybe it's JP cuts will allow Time Magic to shine again with Slow 2/Stop and make being the Haste King unnecessary? Who would have thought a skillset that had flippin' Lifebreak in it would be so rarely used?

Probably the people who realized that the AI wouldn't use Balance as well as the Ultima Demon's use Lifebreak considering that a) Ultima Demons had a lot more HP, b) had better MA and c) couldn't heal themselves. The only reason Balance isn't busted is because the AI is control, same with Quickening. Considering Time Mage was already having problems before that....

The Damned, you should see the post I'm actually replying to and stop assuming I'm always replying to you.  I was replying to the post right above me (Dokurider's), which is clear since his post outright says "this is probably random and kind of dumb" to which I reply "That is random and kind of dumb."  www.

I saw that. I only assumed you were also talking to me because I brought up Ignore Height in the first place, hence why I was also apologizing since I knew it was unimportant.

I think Defend is fine as a 0 JP AI manipulation option.  It just needs to be on a class that benefits from CT / AI manipulation naturally and not Squire.  It allows you to pace a unit's turns backwards to ensure it falls into the Speed tier you want instead of your Speed synch being messed up by a Move-Wait, which is good if it's in the right place and easy to grab.

So what class then? Another physical one? A magickal one? Chemist?

It's obviously not better off on Bard & Dancer and pretty much most Scholars, so they're out. Paladin seems like it would make "sense" due to Nurse...but then they could just use Nurse and they have 0% C-EV besides, so that seems out. The other mages all have a bunch of range no their abilities, so they seem out.

So that basically leaves Mediator, Geomancer & Samurai on the MA side, Chemist and non-Paladin classes. Of those, who benefits the most from waiting for free? Thief seems out despite having the most CT simply because it has the most Speed, so being out of sync is good; same with Ninja really, especially since Kagesougi is quite usable and good and Ninja usually have Hidden Knife to get around physical evasion. Geomancer doesn't really care about CT stuff considering Geomancy is instant and varied.

So that leaves Chemist, Archer, Monk, Mediator, Lancer and Samurai. Of those, I'd actually think, ironically given my Monster Talk comparison from earlier, that Defend would best going to Mediator given Refute interrupts Charging & Performing. Solution might also seem use finally if the AI knows to use Innocent screw with Charging spellcasters (or target themselves). Not sure if anything can "save" Preach though.

Wish -> 100% Accuracy... a better option would be to increase the range to 3.

I'm more than fine with that actually. I was tempted to add into things, but I remember people talking about the accuracy as recently as before 138 due to the Poison changes. That and I couldn't decide whether 2 or 3 range would be less "controversial" even though 2 is obviously not much better.

Salty Rage / Immune: Blind, yeah sure, but it should also be given to Genji Helmet.  *snip* Scope is a thing too, remember.

I suppose that would work. I just feel like Salty Rage needs "something" over Genji Helmet since at present it does nothing after the Initial: Berserk is gone, even it does have wider use by virtue of being accessory. Perhaps them both getting Block: Blind would fix that perception, though I'm not entirely sold on that just yet.

Still, it's something, which is what Salty Rage desperately needs right now if it's only "real" use doesn't want to be hiding in the back with Stone Gun.

[CT5Holy]

I'm pretty sure that Sprint Shoes sees more use than Feather Boots, Rubber Shoes, Defense Armlet, Jade Armlet, Power Wrist, and Genji Gauntlet. Quite possibly more use than Cursed Ring and Iron Boots, too. Sprint Shoes are good and are definitely used. Don't change it.

[The Damned]

(Sigh. Again, I said I was discounting things that were recently changed since Sprint Shoes has been unchanged since ARENA began two years ago. Otherwise we'd be counting Defense Ring, Diamond Armlet, pretty much all the Mantles and probably a couple of other things as well.)

So, of those things you just listed, the only things would really apply are Power Wrist, Genji Gauntlet, Iron Boots (of late at least) and maybe Feather Boots & Rubber Shoes--I forget when the last two were changed.

Regardless, since FFMaster himself offered up Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet, Sprint Shoes is safe. So can we please think about what the other new accessory is rather than keep misquoting me about saying something is useless or unused or the least used of all accessories ever when I said nothing of the sort? Especially when it would just suffice to say that Sprint Shoes should remain unchanged for [insert other reason here]?

Thanks.

[reinoe]

If the gauntlets are going gone and we're in the works of making one replacement then how about something I mentioned earlier?

Accessory

Medicinal Pouch
Special: Lowers the CT of negative status by 33%

I'm not really beholden to the 33%.  I suck at balance.

[TrueLight]

Since we're on the topic of accessories, how about accessories that increase HP/MP? I don't know if it's possible, but it might be something "new". As of the moment, Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist are pretty useless, maybe adding a slight HP/MP (10-20?) boost would make them more appealing.

[The Damned]

(I apologize if that last post came off harsher than I meant it to. Life sucks more than usual right now, but that's no reason to take it out on you guys [and gals].)

I'm not sure how feasible doing stuff like adding HP & MP or fullblown supports to items are, but looking at the state of ALMA, I'd hazard guess and say that, at present, it isn't terribly feasible. That said, since I still know next to nothing about coding, I'll let someone who is actually competent speak on those matters ultimately.

(As an "ironic" aside: A Chemist's Bag was something I'd long considered making an accessory in Embargo, though given the aforementioned ALMA issues, that's kinda been nixed presently, at least it originally was. Chemist dying didn't help matters, but that wasn't what changed it.)

Anyway, if it's rather likely that Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet are likely to be replaced now, then I propose two things:

1. That Bracer and Magic Gauntlet receive a bit of P-EV and M-EV respectively. No more than 10%, though 5% is probably safer (for ARENA).

2. That the two items that replace the other Gloves/Gauntlets/Armguards have +1 PA, including the Neutral: All Elements & Block: Oil one. Considering that most of the classes that can already use shields are PA-based and that two +1 MA accessories would still exist in the form of Reflect Ring and Magic Ring....


Yeah.