FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[JamesOnyx]

She'd have 105 damage elementals and a 189 Chiri. Scary? Yes but, without covering Cursed Ring's weaknesses she's OHKO'd by a 70 faith strengthened magic attack up Blaze Gun not to mention ~80% Consecrations and ~70% Seal Evils.

I don't like to bring up Blaze Gun because that thing is a pure abomination, as are most of the elemental guns (aren't they getting nerfed?).  I only picked up the curse ring because of the potential for a "reraise" on top of the bonus +1 PA/MA, but others I thought were likely candidates were red shoes, reflect ring, magic ring, diamond armlet, and of course 108 gems.

Again with me just making these characters on the spot and not testing them before posting... I found that MA Save was truly the Reaction ability I should have given her after all.  I replaced Chirijiraden with Koutetsu on the Curse Ring build, and gave her Murasame on any other.  It significantly increased her damage output.  Not to mention damage isn't all what Elemental is about, you want to pull off some hacks and inflict some pretty nasty statuses too.

The best elementals I've come up with are from a 10/16 Bard with magic attack up and 108 gems for 156 (126 for the non-elemental ones).

Oh I've already made a couple Bards just like that myself, I totally agree with you that those are amazing.  But this was just a test to see if a somewhat competent armored Elemental could be made.  It's not impossible.  (The samurai was at a 10/16 as well if the helms and armor applied +1/+1s)

The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not a significant change. Not in DPS and not enough to try to come up with another armor concept for a measly 21 gain in damage for one kind of build. And I wouldn't really call a Cursed unit tanky, not with Raise weakness and no self healing. It just doesn't really help all that much. If we really wanted to increase Elemental's damage output, we would just give it another +2 or +3 to it's constant and it would do exactly the same thing, only more helpful to builds with less than optimal configurations for Elemental

This isn't what the armor was originally brought up for, it was just an on the spot idea of how it could be applied.  But speaking of increasing Elemental's damage output, I'd be all for that.  Just saying.

But if making new armors is really that much of a hassle, which is what I originally brought up the subject for so we wouldn't have two slots being wasted on +1s, then I can just leave it at this.  It was just a simple suggestion, nothing more.

thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no MP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round

I'm sorry, if the meta became that fast, I would probably stop playing.  That's an extremely simple setup for a team that could possibly kill in a single round.  There are other setups out there that can accomplish such a task, but they actually require the team to, you know, actually move to do it.

[reinoe]

I wouldn't mind if Wiznaibus and Witch Hunt were subject to Overwhelm or Attack UP, in fact I initially thought they were.  But it doesn't really matter how much damage Wiznaibus does, because Autopotion will ruin it in nearly every context.

[Malroth]

If, after boosting wizanabus can top 45 damage  then it has reached the point where it is viable despite autopotion because it is either outdamaging the Autopotion on and average unit or forcing the other team to run higher Brave/Faiths to increase how often Autopotion goes off.  Forcing a 12 PA unit to equip an extra 3PA worth of gear to reach this point seems a fairly safe balance point.

[The Damned]

(Speaking of Mimes....)

I don't want to interrupt the Elemental talk that I only skimmed and I'll reply to Dokurider at least when I return, but I might as well put this forward before I go on a walk:


Given how Lore is undoubtedly going to become broken in 1.39 even if we jump through hoops trying to stop it from being as easily used with Mimes that now won't kill themselves by Mimicking it, can we just agree that Mimes shouldn't be able to Mimic anything that hits the entire map anyway?


This would also, intentionally, affect all of Song & Dance, given how dumb those get when Mimed, but not other spells in Lore, even if the current forms of Tornado & Quake are at least slightly overpowered. Well, that and this new Druid support might make Mimes just as dumb (if Mad Science honestly is being made into AoE 1 ability, ugh).

Because, really, Mimes really need to be incentivized to be used as something other than Sing-bots or Dance-bots as it is and this would sure as hell help out Polka Polka & Disillusion, even if Battle Song & Magic Song stay at 66%. (I still think they should go back to 50%, but this would make them more bearable. It also might mean that Last Song and Last Dance would be fine going [back] up to 50%; I am not sure about that yet though.)


P.S. Regardless of that, I still think Wiznaibus should completely change over just because it's not going to be able to compete with Lore when/if Mimes are able to Mime Lores.

[Malroth]

I've already made a Lore/mime team already   autopotion still stops it cold

[JamesOnyx]

I've already made a Lore/mime team already   autopotion still stops it cold

Auto-Potion shouldn't hurt Lore that much.  I have a setup that does at least 80-100 damage off of Maelstrom, and with Auto-Potion dropping down to healing 70 HP (and only occasionally no less), you should be able to power through it.  As a note, no team should be able to accumulate 300-500 damage across the map that easily anyways.

(3 Scholars + 1 Mime equals OH my GAWD)

[Dokurider]

Before I elaborate on what Damned/Malroth and everyone else said, I'm going to ask this for tonight:

In light of Oil being unable to be activated in the same action it is applied (Short Edge/Elemental weapon combos), do you guys think it's okay for Short Edge's proc to become 100%? Or should it stay the way it is?

[The Damned]

(Yeah...I don't buy that Malroth, even before the reasons that JamesOnyx pointed out. Please post said team and what team(s) you tested against with it and then we'll talk.)

Wait, when did that "come to light", Dokurider?

Regardless, right now I have to err on the side of caution, as always, and say that it should remain at 50% for three reasons:

1. The fate of Oil's actual changes are dubious enough right now.
2. The fate of Hidden Knife is still up in the air really.
3. Ninja are getting a hell of a lot of boosts overall when they are already a great class, even if the bulk of that "goodness" is just due to three things: innate Two Swords, Hidden Knife and Kagesougi.


All that combined with Oil's other coding issues--and I mean this more in general sense rather than anything that I know FFMaster did--make me hesitant to make it 100%.

If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.

Good point. Admittedly, I was under the impression that we were letting Coral Sword keep Strengthen: Water though between the Desert Rose thing maybe happening and the fact that even WP 10 with self-strengthen isn't that impressive. This especially since we were mostly debating the proc was what sucked and the fact that as potentially big an FU to mages as it is, XX% Reflect is still...not that impressive against the majority of classes.

As for the Aqua Vest thing, it and of itself, it's not a bad idea, but my reply to it is essentially what Dokurider said.

Speaking of armor though, I had a thought: Why don't we just bring back +1 Sp armor for Genji Armor (or Caribini Mail)? Would that really "break" anything, especially when there's no +1 Sp helmet and if it had the least HP of all the heavy armor pieces?


As with Crystal Shield, I still can't think of any other solution presently. (Well, besides Dokurider's suggestion, which I vaguely remember FFMaster saying he didn't like, though I could be wrong.)

By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???

Because Diamond Helm is secretly a failed Flying Guillotine. This is why it's also the only helmet that lets you "survive" Battle Axe's currently inane Decapitate proc: it's that bad at ripping people's heads off.

You and your fancy grammar.

*Nameless Song stuff*

Dokurider, you already know that flattery will get you nowhere with me, even if one was assuming that was flaterry.

As for Nameless Song's current iteration being untenable, hmmm...you make a good argument there. Even if Haste were added, as you say, it's the necessary randomness of things that makes it unusable, especially with Iron Will, Mad Science and the various buffing status accessories around and with Wall being buffed by necessity.

As such, between that and your point about Death Sentence indeed having nothing to cure, I can back that idea. I still don't really understand your point about needing to wait when it comes to Cancel: Frog, though, especially when Don't Move already has enough problems as it is being used outside of Hunting Bow without something else to cancel it.

If Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.

I may be mistaken, but last recall, Mimes weren't going to be able to equip weapons. So the only Equip X abilities this would really help would be Equip Clothes and Equip Armor.

I don't think you'd use the armor to make a powerhouse Elemental user in the first place.   It would be more of a hybrid thing for male samurai, particularly for boosting attack power and Murasame healing at the same time.  Alternatively, it could be used for book users that use Equip Armor... if book users existed.

What? Book users exist. Granted, it's not one of the more popular items, but given Books lack of distribution, the fact that Equip Magegear is mediocre at best and the fact the one of few classes to get Books is the squishy back-row entity known as Summoner, they see a surprising amount of use.

Now, Book users with Armor...yeah, I don't think that's ever happened, which isn't surprising between Equip Armor costing so much and the aforementioned problems with Equip Magegear even on classes that have the MA.

(Speaking of which, I still think that Equip Magegear should go to Time Mage, even if it's also getting Half of MP now. [/nag])

Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   

thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no HP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round.

Edit
Vs a 70/40 unit wit Unyielding and autopotion that 60 damage per hit will be down to 4 damage per hit after the 44 average healing you get from a 55% autopotion.
I'd even be in favor of subjecting it to PEV  so Abandon monsters can get in on the fun.

Gods no. I understand your intentions are good, but that's just...yeah.

Glass cannons can generally be able to beat other class cannons in like one or two turns, provided things go well for one glass cannon group, but no present glass cannons can nuke the other team universally from across the map.


To Boldly Omit EDIT: Ugh. I really do need to stop omitting things. Basically almost everything in bold now was something omitted, while things that were previously bold, aside from the armor question, are now in italics.

[Dokurider]

Code Select Expand

<fdc> here?
<Dokurider> Yeah
<fdc> how goes everythihng?
<Dokurider> Man, I was having a serious brainstorm about Wiznaibus last night
<fdc> oh?
<fdc> what did you come up with?
<Dokurider> And I came to the following conclusions
<fdc> oh?
<Dokurider> Wiznaibus is unbalanced because unlike the other dances it has no appreciable effects when done with a single dancer
<Dokurider> yet with multiple dancers and miming, it's way too dominating
<fdc> right
<Dokurider> Unless you have more than one Auto Potion user
<fdc> then it's shit again
<Dokurider> then it's just flies vs a flyswatter
<fdc> right
<Dokurider> Wiznaibus, to be good
<fdc> I see it as the equivalent of a DoT in a game like WoW
<fdc> or light artillery support in modern warfare
<fdc> not good, but good enough to pick off stragglers and add pressure
<Dokurider> has to end up resembling more like the other dances, one Wiznaibus is good enough, but more than that has diminished returns
<fdc> in other words, a dance where the marginal growth
<fdc> is logarithmic
<fdc> or 1/ x
<fdc> rather than connstant
<Dokurider> Basically
<Dokurider> Take a look at Slow Dance
<Dokurider> One Slow Dancer is all you need
<Dokurider> Hell, it's my Tourney team
<Dokurider> One Slow Dancer
<Dokurider> and a bunch of shields
<fdc> actually, no...slow dance's marginal utility is very high
<Dokurider> to guard
<fdc> Y U SO DERP
<fdc> all over again
<fdc> well...until SP = 1
<fdc> what I mean is this
<fdc> 6 to 5 to 4 to 3 SP
<fdc> becomes more and more deadly
<Dokurider> well, maybe it was a bad example
<fdc> BUT I undertand what you mean
<fdc> the marginal utility per dancer
<fdc> is diminishing
<fdc> that is true
<fdc> not the marginal utility per use, necessary
<Dokurider> Even Witch Hunt
<fdc> because of team dynamics
<Dokurider> follows that formula
<Dokurider> But not Wiznaibus
<Dokurider> If we want Auto Potion to gain support for becoming balanced, Wiznaibus has to be fixed
<Dokurider> Too bad I'm not sure what to do yet
<Dokurider> But
<Dokurider> At least know I know what I'm aiming for
<Dokurider> Which I really haven't so far
<fdc> Witch Hunt has two primary differences
<fdc> MP = 0 doesn't mean much
<fdc> for every unit
<fdc> hence, the marginal utility per use
<fdc> is not constant
<fdc> it's actually 0
<fdc> until they reach the time when their MP can be cut to 0
<fdc> whereas HP damage is always good
<Dokurider> true, but you only need one dancer to maintain that MP = 0
<fdc> no matter how much is dealt
<fdc> Correct
<fdc> so the marginal utility per dancer
<fdc> if MP = 0
<fdc> is also zero
<Dokurider> You don't need more than one Witch Hunter
<fdc> Here's the thing....all the status dances
<fdc> are marginal utility is exponential per dance until 1
<fdc> but marginal utility per dancer is negative due to team dynamics
<fdc> witch hunt is virtually zero in all respects until MP is low.  Then it's either really high or zero depending on the team
<fdc> and marginal use is negative due to team dynamics
<fdc> whereas wiznaibus is constant and positive but small
<fdc> in both marginal utility per dance
<fdc> and per dancer
<Dokurider> The only idea I've come up with so far is like Max HP reduction
<fdc> if units aren;t leveling up
<fdc> that would work
<fdc> I can't do it in my patch due to requip
<fdc> and the bugs that causes
<Dokurider> No, units never level up in Arena
<Dokurider> no exp
<fdc> though I may make that an ASM assignment if it turns out to work
<fdc> I know
<fdc> in my patch...though
<fdc> *if it turns out mechnically to work well in Arena
<fdc> another, Doku
<fdc> of the same vein
<fdc> is % HP damage of curHP
<Dokurider> That was my first idea actually
<fdc> just make it higher than AP for a 200 HP unit.
<fdc> so more than 40%
<fdc> but then you'd need to scale that quadratically
<fdc> I think
<fdc> to be fair
<fdc> I can write the formula, but do we really want FFM to code that?
<Dokurider> The only problem with that is the presence of more than one Dancer
<Dokurider> Or when the mimes come around
<Dokurider> Now I'm dealing 40% all over the place
<Dokurider> Oh wait
<fdc> 40%
<Dokurider> You said curHP
<fdc> then 24%
<fdc> yeah
<fdc> eventually, AP units
<fdc> stabilize
<fdc> at some HP balance
<fdc> though if their brave is too low
<fdc> they still get seriously damaged
<fdc> Though...I suspect Raven's right
<Dokurider> ?
<fdc> having a hard counter to this would be good
<fdc> in AP
<fdc> so we can lower the percentage and not make it as frightening as 40%
<REDACTED>
<fdc> 40% is probably way too aggressive
<Dokurider> Yeah if we do this
<Dokurider> We can just add my previous idea
<fdc> It has to be stronger than regen + MHPUP, though
<fdc> at least at maxHP
<Dokurider> of AP not triggering on hits that deal less than it heals
<fdc> so those units stabilize at around 75%
<Dokurider> So it doesnt' have to overcome AP
<fdc> 0.75 * 1.225
<fdc> Err...
<fdc> I mean
<fdc> Sum (N / M * 1.225) ^ X from X =1 to infinity = 0.75
<fdc> that's what we have to solve
<fdc> find N  and M
<Dokurider> man solving for X and Y?
<fdc> N and M
<fdc> but yeah
<fdc> if you want
<Dokurider> Imma need more morning water
<fdc> treat it as one decimal
<Dokurider> I'll brb
<fdc> so InfSum(Y * 1.225) ^ X = 0.75
<fdc> or 1.225Y (1 + 1.225Y + 1.225^2 Y^2 + ... ) = 0.75
<fdc> or 1.225Y * 1 / (1 - 1.225Y) = 0.75
<fdc> or Y /  (1 - 1.225Y) = 0.75 / 1.225
<fdc> crap
<fdc> that's still like 54% or something
<fdc> no
<fdc>
<fdc> screw this
<fdc> Y = 0.75 / 1.225 - 0.75Y
<fdc> or 1.75 Y = 0.75 / 1.225
<fdc> 35%
<fdc> vs. autopotion at 250 HP
<fdc> that's nearly enough to maintain around 95%
<fdc> anything more...and AP starts being less effective
<fdc> so that ASM is unnecessary
<Dokurider> And even if you don't have AP, you don't get screwed over
<Dokurider> not completely
<fdc> right
<fdc> there's one problem
<fdc> AP isn't 100% activation
<fdc> so....assuming 100% activation...it stabilizes at
<fdc> 95%
<fdc> at 70% max
<fdc> and 55% average
<fdc> we're talking about really getting cut to ribbons eventually
<fdc> even at 250 HP
<fdc> in short, the only way to stabilize againnst this
<fdc> is regen
<fdc> and MHPUP
<Dokurider> So how does this work with two Wiznaibus users?
<fdc> just stabilizes at a lower percentage.
<fdc> actually, we can probably cut it to 25% just to be safe
<fdc> because wiznaibus usually happens every 0.8 turns
<fdc> and AP users will do better
<fdc> than getting totally shredded, which is kinda wrong
<Dokurider> Yep, sounds damn good
<fdc> This is why you need the math guy
<fdc> I'll test it out...
<fdc> if it works...I'll definitely connsider adding it to my patch
<fdc> but I suspect the poison proc's pressure, given how it works now
<fdc> is sufficient
<fdc> the key thing...however, is that AP can and does block it
<fdc> because mimed wiznaibus
<fdc> will get AP'd
<fdc> because mimes do not have disable innate
<fdc> so it's still blockable...the MP damage and poison is to add tempo
<fdc> so in fact, the safest setup is still 5 performers with disable
<fdc> but you do that at your own risk
<fdc> because I think the faster overall tempo should quickly stop you
<fdc> plus, in terms of game balance, you can't easily get 5 performers
<fdc> until very late
<fdc> damage-wise, the strongest is 3 performers, 2 mimes
<fdc> and really, if the BS piles up too high
<fdc> I can certainlly restrict team size to 4
<fdc> that way...things more resemble Arena and makes AI tourneys easier


To summarize, Wiznaibus deals % damage based on curHP, not max HP. This produces a dance that has an effect by itself, but can't fly out of control when multiple users are present. What are your thoughts?

[Malroth]

Auto-Potion shouldn't hurt Lore that much.  I have a setup that does at least 80-100 damage off of Maelstrom, and with Auto-Potion dropping down to healing 70 HP (and only occasionally no less), you should be able to power through it.  As a note, no team should be able to accumulate 300-500 damage across the map that easily anyways.

(3 Scholars + 1 Mime equals OH my GAWD)

Try my team "first strike"  against any team with 2 auto potions and see how badly they loose

[The Damned]

(I misspoke last edit: Saying 1.39 Mimes can't equip weapons was also already bold and still is [because I'm both stupid and lazy].)

Anyway, there's something that I thought about yesterday before I apparently accidentally knocked the battery out of my computer while asleep--ugh--and was looking at Samurai set-ups. Well, that and the earlier talk about female Samurai set-ups with Black Magic: Perhaps it would be better if Half of MP went to Samurai?

Granted, Samurai doesn't use MP because Draw Out, unfortunately, can't use MP (or else Masamune might actually be balanced). That said, of the three armor using classes, it is the most mage-like; this even with Lancers getting Robes back and possibly a slight MA boost. More importantly, after all the currently suggested changes, Samurai would still be the only class that will be without an in-class Support it can actually use if Primary.

(Admittedly, if Half of MP went to Samurai instead of Time Mage, then Time Mage would be without a Support at all again. I am suggesting this, however, in light of the fact that I still maintain that Time Mage should get Equip Magegear. This both because Time Mage still has the worst equipment options in ARENA*, even if we ever decide on what the hell 1.39 Staves are like, and because Druids are coming in with another Support anyway with "Heart of the Wild" or whatever. But, hey, since I've been the only one pushing for Equip Magegear thing, I doubt it will happen.

Then again, the "Balance goes to Oracle" thing happened, so....

I'm also not counting Mimes, obviously.)

But, yeah, I guess it's less about Half of MP, really (even as awkward as it might be for Time Mage to have 5 RSMs, though that's not unheard of), and more just that Samurai not be left "Support"-less, even as much as half of the current Draw Out makes me roll my eyes when really powered up. Outside of Half of MP, the only other Support I can think that might fit them is maybe Paladin's Equip Heavy Blade.

...Ah, crap. I guess Paladin is also without a Support that isn't redundant to a Primary Paladin user and it's losing a Movement (though Move -1 sucked on Paladin anyway). Hmmmm....

...Yeah. I've got nothing (right now), though at least Paladin's reaction is good. Meatbone Slash is...iffy at best and, even as overpowered as I feel some abilities in Draw Out--Masamune, Murasame, Bizen Boat, arguably Chirijiraden--are, something seems like it's...missing, at least on the male Samurai side of things. Maybe it's the lack of HP, though I realize that has to do with Murasame (and, now, Masamune) most likely; just like how you can't exactly ask for more PA for males due to Innate Two Hands.

Shrug. Ignore this (like almost everything else I write). [/stream of consciousness]

*Yes, Wizards are also only stuck with one weapon type, as are Samurai, but unlike Staves, Rods & Katanas don't uniformly suck and some of the Rods at least are getting another set of buffs, however slight.

To summarize, Wiznaibus deals % damage based on curHP, not max HP. This produces a dance that has an effect by itself, but can't fly out of control when multiple users are present. What are your thoughts?

So, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe. Is it still going to be able to add Poison? It's rather...unclear.

Regardless, I still think that Mimes should no longer be able to mimic things that hit the whole field, especially since even changing Wiznaibus doesn't change incoming Lore problem.

Try my team "first strike"  against any team with 2 auto potions and see how badly they loose

Is "First Strike" the team you tested out from before, Malroth? Because, if so, while similar, it's still ultimately markedly different from being able to use three Scholars/Druids/Lore-users & 1 Mime and have said Mime not die even without Distribute.

Also, if beating that team is solely dependent upon making sure that half of your team's non-100% Reactions are Auto Potion, then, uh, there's still at least one problem with that situation, if not more.

[Malroth]

One Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day

[Dokurider]

Actually, I think Samurai should get Overwhelm since they have proven to be it's best and consistently it's only user given their tendency to use both Magical and Physical attacks.

So, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe. Is it still going to be able to add Poison? It's rather...unclear.

Yes it still would be capable of procing poison.

One Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day

Well I'm not sure what Time Mages are going to do with Daggers other than poke with Platina Daggers. Wizards don't need Books with Scholars getting a stat change.

[Malroth]

Well daggers are partially based on speed so they'd get more damage out of them than other casters and Throwing knife, Repel Knife, Orihalchum, and Main Gauche are all better than anything a time mage can currently equip

[Dokurider]

Female Time Mages only have 3 PA. No way can 10 SP make up for that.

[Gaignun]

So, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe.

I would rather kill of Wiznaibus than have it come to this.  CurHP or no, two instances will still drop HP to nearly 50%.  Map-wide, unevadable, unabsorbable, poison-inflicting Demi 2?  Count me out.  If it's Auto Potion we're worried about here, we should rather invent a new status ailment that blocks reaction abilities and have Wiznaibus inflict it.  Make the proc rate high (25~50%) and the duration low (10~20 CT) so that it doesn't outlive its designed purpose.

(I cannot remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, or thought about mentioning it but chose not to.)

[reinoe]

One thing I mentioned in chat is that if we could get Wiznaibus to not trigger Autopotion then problem solved.  There are two ways of doing this I think...

Either having Wiznaibus get reprogrammed or the more likely scenario is that there is a minimum threshhold for triggering Autopotion. 

[Dokurider]

15% then. FDC invented that because he wanted Wiznaibus to outdamage Regen + Move HP Up. I say as long as it outdamages Move HP Up, it should be fine.

[The Damned]

(15% Wiznaibus seems a lot more fair, though I'd still rather it change to something that doesn't do damage.)

After all, for the most part, all of this talk is focusing on what if the opposing team has Auto-Potion or Move-HP Up or HP Restore.

What about if they don't, though? Then is 15% CurHP damage at 100% accuracy with whatever chance of long-lasting Poison really fair? Even in the face of diminishing turns with multiple Dancers? Especially if Wiznaibus can still be Mimed?

One Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day

Neither class has the PA to make those weapons work, though of the two, I could see Wizards getting Books at least (or, "ironically", Daggers).

Honestly, I'd rather just decide on Staves than try to give Time Mages more options beyond giving them Equip Magegear.

So, yeah, file this under another "no" to that idea.

Actually, I think Samurai should get Overwhelm since they have proven to be it's best and consistently it's only user given their tendency to use both Magical and Physical attacks.

The same, actually. I just...didn't want to make Murasame the ability even stronger than it already is.

Yes it still would be capable of procing poison.

Do not want, then. At least 25%. Even 15% Cur HP with Poison is a bit...iffy.

Make the proc rate high (25~50%) and the duration low (10~20 CT) so that it doesn't outlive its designed purpose.

(I cannot remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, or thought about mentioning it but chose not to.)

I'm guessing the "it" here is "Poison status" rather than Wiznaibus, right?

Regardless, no I don't recall you mentioning this before, though I do vaguely recalling at least one other person agreeing when Barren--I think--brought up the idea of shortening Poison and Regen's CTs a while ago.

[Dokurider]

(15% Wiznaibus seems a lot more fair, though I'd still rather it change to something that doesn't do damage.)

After all, for the most part, all of this talk is focusing on what if the opposing team has Auto-Potion or Move-HP Up or HP Restore.

What about if they don't, though? Then is 15% CurHP damage at 100% accuracy with whatever chance of long-lasting Poison really fair? Even in the face of diminishing turns with multiple Dancers? Especially if Wiznaibus can still be Mimed?

I'm actually hesitant to support the old idea of it purely proccing poison because I think it'll actually be stepping on Kiyomori's toes, seeing that it's basically a map wide Kiyomori.

As opposed to dealing at least 20% damage or more on units with 300 HP or less? And that's just one Wiznaibus dancer. A Wiznaibus Dancer with a PA of 15 can output 60 damage per turn. That's 120 damage with two dancers, 180 with one Mime, and 240 damage with two Mimes. That with the last setup would not only leave your average 300 HP unit in critical, but can outright kill some units, and the next turn, they are all good as dead. As oppose to a 15% curHP formula Wiznaibus with only 8 instances per turn(because it's getting a CT increase to "0.8 of a turn" according to FDC's calculations, or 8 CT I believe) that'll only leave the enemy at 27%, not even in critical, and the next onslaught will not be lethal.

Of course, whether it's 16 instances or 8 instances, trying to balance Dances or Songs or Lore around Miming bullshit is bullshit. Mimes with all the incoming buffs they're getting, don't need to be the back up dancers/chorus anymore. No to miming map wide skills. There, I said it. Don't be upset, FFM.

It can lose the poison proc too, it's not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

CurHP, thanks to it's damage tapering off the lower HP gets, is more fairer to low HP units, and can be effective without multiple dancers while not being broken in the presence of multiple dancers which was a problem pre-Auto Potion and still is if it goes up against a team with less than two Auto Potion users as Reinoe's team proved.

It shouldn't need to get around Auto Potion anymore because the Wiznaibus user no longer needs to be a glass cannon in order to be effective, removing the pressure of having to drop the enemy right away because they'll drop you if given half a chance thus making Auto Potion less of a big deal.