FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

That said, very well. Let us "go" with the 100% hit rate that Wall now if we give it CT 0 even though Iron Will would still exist for low Faith users, which is hardly attractive when Chivalry might keep its for-some-reason instant Reraise ability.

I'm sure that wouldn't turn out to be obnoxious at all. [/sarcasm]

I don't think it will be any more obnoxious than Cherche and Setiemson.  As long as Wall costs more MP than Dispel Magic (which will also get an AoE of 1), Wall will have a viable counter.

Here are two JP modifications to throw on the pile:

Maintenance: 100 JP -> 0 JP
Maintenance is dramatically underpowered for a support ability.  Giving up your support ability for break protection is costly enough.

Equip Armor: 450 JP -> 250 JP
Equip Armor's 450 JP cost is from a time when clothes were much weaker than armour.  Now, clothes and armour are on approximately equal footing; it is appropriate to make their JP costs reflect that.  Keep in mind that mage classes, who find Equip Armor most attractive, must spend an additional 250 JP unlocking the Paladin skill set, which they will likely not use in any further capacity, for this ability.

[reinoe]

I was looking through the Master Guide when I started to wonder about something...

Chrono Trigger is currently listed as "when damaged" as a trigger.  However while watching Les Liaisons Dangeruses vs Celestial Status, Chrono Trigger was activated off a missed Earth Slash.

My question is...
Are "when damaged" and "When attacked" considered the same thing for reaction abilities?

[CT5Holy]

No. PA/MA/Speed Save will not trigger if the unit dodged an attack.

I'm guessing Chrono Trigger and Dragon Spirit have similar triggers - the unit is targeted by a physical attack. Dragon Spirit will also trigger off a dodged attack. I have yet to see Dragon Spirit activate off of a magic attack. I'm going to assume that Chrono Trigger is the same. (Does anyone remember if Sunken State triggered off of a magic attack? Sunken State became Chrono Trigger, so I'd think they would have the same properties.)

[Dokurider]

I don't think it will be any more obnoxious than Cherche and Setiemson.  As long as Wall costs more MP than Dispel Magic (which will also get an AoE of 1), Wall will have a viable counter.

Here are two JP modifications to throw on the pile:

Maintenance: 100 JP -> 0 JP
Maintenance is dramatically underpowered for a support ability.  Giving up your support ability for break protection is costly enough.

I'm pretty sure even that will be 250 JP more than most would be willing to spend for it. Still, it's an okay change for me.

Equip Armor: 450 JP -> 250 JP
Equip Armor's 450 JP cost is from a time when clothes were much weaker than armour.  Now, clothes and armour are on approximately equal footing; it is appropriate to make their JP costs reflect that.  Keep in mind that mage classes, who find Equip Armor most attractive, must spend an additional 250 JP unlocking the Paladin skill set, which they will likely not use in any further capacity, for this ability.

I disagree. Armor and Clothes are roughly equal, but that don't translate into a good Equip skill. Simply put, more units will sooner go for Equip Armor than Equip Clothes because Equip Armor gives excellent HP and status protection. It is essentially a better Unyielding, or a HP Boost. Meanwhile, Equip Clothes cannot compete with Attack Up or even Overwhelm. Nobody even uses Equip Clothes for the Speed or Elemental protection. Furthermore, most of the classes that can use or want clothes already have them.

Point is, Equip Armor is priced high because it's the best Equip skill. Equip Clothes is priced low because it's a bad Equip skill, if not the worst. Equip Armor and Equip Clothes are not congruent and they shouldn't be priced as so.

[Gaignun]

Equip Armor is certainly the most useful, but I'm still not convinced that it's worth 700 JP.  Allow me to run through a case example:

1. Female Priest wearing clothes
345 HP, 182 MP
Black Hood (+110 HP, +50 MP)
Silk Robe (+110 HP, +50 MP)

2. Female Priest wearing armour
360 HP, 82 MP
Crystal Helmet (+120 HP, Immune: Don't Act)
Diamond Armor (+115 HP, Immune: Berserk, Darkness, Poison, Don't Move)

Armour certainly offers excellent HP, but clothes can, too!  The featured armour offers +15 HP.  Overwhelm, by comparison, offers +86 HP.  Armour's real feature is its status protection.  However, by buying into that feature, you pass up on MP.  Status protection is worth more than MP, but I don't think it's worth 700 JP more.

[Dokurider]

Yeah, most mages would rather have the Robes than the Armor, but I was thinking more along the lines of Chemists. They absolutely benefit from Armor. In fact, it's what I usually give my Chemists.

[Gaignun]

I have (yet) another (fabulous) idea!  (In truth, I'm just bored.)  How comfortable would people feel if we gave first-tier Demi an AoE of 2?  With average damage clocking in at 100~125, and with damage being unboostable, it has the destructive output of first-tier Fire on a 15-MA caster.  Fire also adds Oil, costs half as much JP, and works with Oil.

Now, of course, Demi is better in other ways.  Demi:

• is on a skill set with support abilities


• has one less CT


• is equally usable by jobs of any base MA

so I don't mean to compare Demi and Fire on damage alone.

Why do I propose this?  For two reasons:

1. To promote balanced absorption strategies

Demi has a short CT, making it a useful method of healing, and it doesn't add nasty ailments like tier 1 black magick.  It is balanced because teams that will rely on party-wide Demi absorption will need to pass up on M-Ev, leaving them exposed to hostile magick.

2. To weaken damage-reduction strategies

By damage-reduction strategies, I mean the use of Overwhelm, (Magic) Defend UP, and perfumes.  Defensive strategies rustle my jimmies because they drag out matches.  Demi and status ailments are the sole two counters to these strategies.  Demi is unique in that it is the only "status-formula" skill that deals direct damage.  I feel an urge to promote this feature.  Now, I'm not suggesting that we break the game by buffing Demi's damage to the point of absurdity.  I'm suggesting that we allow it to be used in more ways (here, wide-area, simultaneous damage and healing in mild quantities.)  With more teams using Time Magick for their Haste and damage support, defensive strategies become that much less attractive.

Is an AoE of 2 too good?  Perhaps.  If I had it my way, I'd increase its AoE to 2 and leave it at that, but if there is dissenting opinion, I am willing to increase its cost of use in another way to compensate.  Increasing its MP cost, for example, will pre-emptively nerf teams that try to stack armour and spam Demi.

[Dokurider]

It's not a bad idea, and upping the MP cost will be fine because most armored units will be wanting to take advantage of Balance more than Demi anyways. However, Demi's damage is boostable. It's a weird quirk with elemental damage success formulas, whereas it'll boost damage instead of success. But that a minor point and not a big deal. As for bypassing defenses, I don't think it's going to be the great equalizer, or even a decent equalizer. I'm not sure if Demi's damage is effected by Unyielding or not, but Shell and Magic Defense Up will reduce success rates. Not to mention Demi is more vulnerable to evasion.

The only reliable way I've found to punch through all that defense shit is Death Sentence, mainly via Secret Fist. It's one of the reasons why I've been so bugged about Death, because while Secret Fist will cut down tanks barring an immunity, meanwhile, Death is evadable both by faith and evasion, making it worthless as a so called tank buster. The only units that are legitimately frightened by Death are other mages, and that's if Death somehow avoids getting midcharged by said units.

[CT5Holy]

I agree with the buff to Demi and the JP cost reduction on Maintenance. Don't have a strong opinion on Equip Armor, so I'll throw out the obligatory compromise solution of 350 JP.

Are you sure, Doku? I'm pretty sure ele-boosting will only boost the success rate of Demi, not its damage.

[Dokurider]

Oh, you're right, guys. I was getting mixed up with Half/Weak properties.

[Dokurider]

Actually, I have a idea on what to do with Maintenance: turn it into a Movement or Reaction. As a Reaction, it doesn't have to worry about triggering, it'll just be on all the time like Abandon, or a pseudo Reaction.

[reinoe]

Actually, I have a idea on what to do with Maintenance: turn it into a Movement or Reaction. As a Reaction, it doesn't have to worry about triggering, it'll just be on all the time like Abandon, or a pseudo Reaction.

If anything I'd rather see if it's possible as a movement, since Chemists don't have a movement ability, and we're still a little short on interesting movement abilities, even once Ninja's get Speed +1.  My issue though is that as a movement Maintenance doesn't seem "thematic" at first glance.

[Dokurider]

It would probably work the best as a movement, where it'll have less competition, whereas with Reactions, it'll still have to fight with Auto Potion, Abandon, and the Guard reactions. But yeah, it would be hard to see as a movement.

Another suggestion is concerning the changes to Oil. Now Raven suggested that Oil block reactions, but I think it would be more effective blocking evasion. One of the biggest concerns for oil/magic spells combos is M-Ev and how nothing can really be done about it, thanks to Concentrate only effecting P-Ev, aside from using Paralyze/Sleep/other shit. So, Oil could be used as a way to help out in that regard and make Oil more generally applicable. Negating reactions is unique and would be welcome, but consider that Oil's effect is potentially strong enough to net OHKOs, making Reaction Negating pointless except against Projectile Guard, and possible Counter Magic, if Oil finally becomes a spell. Perhaps, poor neglected dummied out Curse/Evil Looking could be introduced to negate Reactions? mite b gud

EDIT: On second thought, Maintenance could work as a psuedo-Support Reaction on 40/40 units. With Auto Potion only going of 40% of the time, some people might get results from just slotting Maintenance for a Reaction so they'd get a passive, yet possibly rump saving effect versus gambling with Auto Potion. It. Might. Just. Work.

[reinoe]

Regarding something I noticed about the Poison spell: what if it applied Oil?  Watching CT5HOLY's video before it got pulled I noticed a wizard was frequently using the Poison spell.  However despite it's massive AOE and high hit percentage, the spell was mostly useless.  We could rename it "Toxify" and have it apply oil?

[TrueLight]

Regarding something I noticed about the Poison spell: what if it applied Oil?  Watching CT5HOLY's video before it got pulled I noticed a wizard was frequently using the Poison spell.  However despite it's massive AOE and high hit percentage, the spell was mostly useless.  We could rename it "Toxify" and have it apply oil?

Fire already inflicts Oil, so having 2 spells causing Oil is not really necessary. Although, Poison could use the buff whether it's inflicting another status effect or more AOE.

[Gaignun]

Poison is good at forcing the opposing team to reapply Regen.  It's also a fallback spell if the opposing team is using White Robes and Thief Hats.  It's pretty weak, but it has a purpose.

We could replace Poison with Oil (and change Fire's status effect to something else... preferably Poison), but then I really wouldn't want Oil buffed.  Oil already makes many spells 1HKO, and, more worryingly, Oil overrides elemental resistances.  Giving Oil another effect will overload it.  I believe it is better to create a new status effect that cancels M-Ev and/or locks reaction abilities.

I think Maintenance fits the Chemist's skill set best as a Movement ability, even though it sounds silly.

[reinoe]

A team like that would still be subject to Blind not to mention a little lacking in the damage department. 8 WP is already pretty low as is.

After watching my team, "House Of Dead Ninjas", in action I'm not sure Hidden Knife needs a nerf.  Wasn't the problem with Hidden Knife actually Kagesougi?  And Kagesougi is getting a slight nerf via removal of Don't Act.

[The Damned]

(Sigh. This has been long delayed. My apologies.)

Outside of my response to Wiz, which isn't from this thread, I'm going to put every other reply in spoilers since they're all from the most recent page and there's no point making a wall of text, especially at this order. Restraint from me? I know, it's shocking.

That said, I also do this to make it easier to ask a question that's been nagging me ever since I pointed out to Dokurider that the Cursed Ring guaranteeing fourth turn revival is weirdly "unnatural": Would anyone else agree that Cursed Ring is probably fine losing that +1 Speed?

spoiler: At Gaignun with regards to Wall and White Magic(k)

Except that Cherche & Setiemson are trumped by the now unavoidable Steal Accessory, only cover the user themselves and aren't guaranteed to come with access to revival, healing and/or a Holy nuke. Granted, Wall is indeed able to be gotten rid of by Dispel Magic, Spellbreaker, Chaos Blade, the current Refute or just dying, but aside two of those aren't 100% like Wall would still be. That's why not re-binding it by Faith just seems...unnecessary given everything else White Magick has. Sure, it's losing Golden Hairpin's currently overpowered boost to Holy...slightly due to the loss of +1 MA, rather than a guaranteed, probably necessary change to Holy's power and/or speed.

(What are "we" doing with Holy anyway? The only thing I remember being suggested that I think people kind of agree with was to slightly drop its power by one multiplier point, but that's it.)

As (I think) I said before, my problem isn't with Wall getting made better since I'm the one who brought up how much it sucks compared to Chivalry's Iron Will in the first place. It's more that the way it's possibly to boosted may be too much with the other boosts the already strong White Magick is getting, namely "fixing" the Cure spells and making one instant. This versus what little it's definitely losing, namely Golden Hairpin losing +1 MA. Holy, as asked above, is still up in the air, but White Magick's Raise spells and Esuna aren't getting touched. Also up in the air is what Priests stats might look like, though it seems probable that they'll be made a faster/the fastest mage.

Additionally, while Wall getting such a boost is necessary, it also somewhat muddles what "should" be done with Protect (2) or Shell (2) since I know some people brought up those as being "deficient". So...yeah, Wall has kinda has rippling problems just because it isn't in a vacuum, even if it does need improvement (compared to Iron Will).

I'm fine with trying it, I'm just...hesitant.

spoiler: At CT5Holy about Sunken State

I vaguely remember Sunken State triggering off of magickal attacks, but it's been a while. Looking at the BGM makes it seems like neither Sunken State nor Sunken State should, of course, and I honestly don't recall Chrono Trigger triggering off magick. Then again, very few people have been using Chrono Trigger, so....

Regardless, I'll double check this weekend when I try to check for Unction and...other things.

spoiler: About Maintenance possibly becoming a Movement or even "Reaction"

I wouldn't be against trying it out as a Movement or "Reaction". However, if that's the case, then I don't agree that its JP should be 0. It should be at least 50 JP since it has significant effect, even if only against five certain skills, unlike the two free 0 JP Movements of Move -1 and Jump +1.

Of course, if it's changed from a Support to a Movement or especially a Reaction, it should perhaps be made sure that the AI can still "see" it like it does now. Unless, of course, we want the AI to waste turns trying to break the equipment of or steal from a unit with Maintenance. Of course, the former isn't too much of a problem with the way that Breaks have been set-up since vanilla since they default to damage; if that should change though....

Similarly, I'd probably be for trying to use Xifanie's Maintenance hack that negates stat minus abilities (and that puts a general limit on stat boosts in general IIRC, which I may not).

As for it possibly not being thematic as a Movement (or Reaction), just change the explanation to say that the unit makes sure it has all of its equipment as moves about. [/mastery of bullshit]

spoiler: About Equip Armor and its cost

I concur with Dokurider. I see no reason to make it cheaper or, at least, that much cheaper. Maybe making it 400 JP would be fine, but otherwise...I'm not sure. Maybe 350 JP as CT5Holy proposed as a compromise, but that seems pushing it, especially since the health-based armors are getting a boost and Regen & Move-HP Up are already quite strong.

This especially when Equip Clothing will a)be moving to Monk most likely and b) probably be getting a boost by allowing Ribbons/Hair Adornments/Headbands. If anything, it's Equip Clothing that probably needs a JP increase going into 1.39/139.

spoiler: About Demi vs. Fire...and Oil

I wouldn't be against Demi potentially getting up to AoE 2, but I'd rather wait until 1.40/140 to try that rather than try to tack it on to 1.39/139 (if that's what you're suggesting). There's already quite a few changes suggested both for Time Mage and in general and that would be a rather large one. Besides, Kotetsu is already an AoE 2 attack of Dark(ness), which is more than half of the elements can say since only Fire, Earth and Wind have absorb-friendly AoE 2s.

Additionally, I'm admittedly rather hesitant for two other reasons between the Cursed Ring "problem" and the suggestion that it's likely more Fire that has the problem than Demi.

As such, I'd maybe up for changing Fire's proc to Poison from Oil, despite still disliking Poison lasting past death, particularly on mages. Admittedly, might make Fire even worse/more powerful given its AoE, but the Poison spell as it is now just...sucks frankly. The new Regen is at least usable--another point to White Magick--even if it still seems somewhat little use due to nigh-ubiquitous usage of Masamune; the boost to Antidote also isn't a point in Poison's favor.

(Also, it's somewhat hazy if Salamander would/"should" have to change its proc from Oil to Poison as well if Fire did. I'd imagine it would, but....)

A similar problem to that suggestion is that an Oil-only move--Unction--might both be too powerful and might be something that isn't even used by the AI (or at least often used) like Persuade (or Preach/Solution). Still, Unction would be...interesting to try at least; I'll try to see if I can finally test the AI using it in one of my patches before this weekend ends, but I promise nothing.

Otherwise, I'd still suggest what I suggested in 1.39/139 thread months ago already:


1. Poison goes to Time Mage (or Oracle).
2. Balance goes to Oracle (if Poison goes to Time Mage).
3. Wizard gets a composite Bio that can proc Poison since Druid is apparently doing away with all Bio spells.


There. Poison gets to be on a class that would actually use it because neither can just nuke everything into the ground and, at the same time, the entire Bio line doesn't just go "poof".

As for combining Poison & Oil into Toxify potentially, for Brahma's sake, please no. There's a reason I have such thing as a special-character-only ability in my planned hacks. It's the same reason why Hawk's Eye is currently pretty damn busted: simultaneously applying life loss over time and a greatly susceptibility to a certain (set of) element(s) makes things quickly swing in the favor of the user pretty much always, especially when the damage lasts past death and thus negates half of the available resurrection options.

spoiler: About Oil & M-EV in general

Yeah, I'd be up for it (or something) negating M-EV in general if people decide/agree that something is really "needed" to do so (besides Sleep or Don't Act or Stop [?]), if only because Concentrate is back. Of course, this means Unction itself would likely have to by-pass M-EV or else it would be pointless...which would be a rather huge boost to elemental teams that aren't Holy or Dark (or even ones that are since Holy, nuke that it is, is still avoidable).

So...yeah. As much a magickal equivalent to M-EV might be worthwhile, I don't think giving it to Oil would be good, especially with the level of power Oil already has. Making use of one of the dummied out abilities for that sake might be interesting, even if M-EV is hardly ubiquitous currently and even now quite a few teams are still (understandably) utterly devoid of it.

spoiler: About Hidden Knife being a problem

Besides the seeming bugginess I just uncovered with my match against fdc, Kagesougi was never the sole problem with Hidden Knife. It just quickly became the most visible problem after Spellguns were "taken care of"--laugh--because Kagesougi by itself is already horribly overpowered. And having that same ability be on the one class with innate Two Swords that also has access to a weapon that basically gives Concentrate with +1 Speed without need to pay a single extra JP (beyond the 200)? ...Did no one really foresee this being an issue while I was gone?

Regardless, there are several problems with Hidden Knife besides it basically obviating the current Sasuke Knife on every team except for Wiz's and making Kagesougi even dumber. There are three main issues with it that have been around since the beginning:


1) It grants Concentrate automatically two two of the fastest of classes, one of which has innate Two Swords. This is the biggest problem.

2) On top of that it grants +1 Speed, so you get more Concentrated hits on which ever user has it. This is the "smallest" problem.

3) It's compatible with Two Swords, meaning that it makes other weapons compatible with Two Swords unavoidable, still without any sacrifice. This is the Goldilocks problem.


This all along with making every physically-based attacks also unavoidable and...yeah, that's basically why I've always disliked Hidden Knife. At least with it and Concentrate being subject to Blind/Darkness now, it isn't as bad as it was initially, but it still really doesn't need all of that even before Kagesougi. I'd rather it just lose Always: Transparent and keep the +1 Speed and compatibility with Two Swords, even if that would mean a slight WP boost from 8 to 9. Then I'd just be fine with having (almost) all of Raven's proposed changes for Ninjato take place otherwise.

I've been lurking pretty much these past few months only to stick around and see what'll come of 139 then I'm probably gone for good afterwards. GG to everyone else who's tried to triumph over me so far and btw the Damned, have the results from Insult's wrath convinced you that it needs to die since it's obvious it's only compatible with defensive-themed teams that utilize quickening and darkness, which is probably also gonna get the cut (quickening i.e.)? Because it should, and if not, I wouldn't mind hearing your rationale despite the current results kinda proving my point to be true.

\o

I'm still not entirely sure Insult needs to die just yet. The problem seems more to be that Berserk lasts forever after its afflicted. So I'd rather see how Insult fares if Berserk is given a CT of, say 48, before we nuke it from orbit; Quickening can be nuked from orbit though--I'm personally quite tired of giving that thing chances it doesn't deserve. Otherwise, in killing Insult, we'd also have to probably get rid of Blind Rage and Salty Rage since Berserk status as a whole is really a problem.

Unless of course you think, for the most part, that Insult is as overpowering as it seems to currently be solely because its instant (and unavoidable outside of Finger Guard), which would be understandable. After all, I personally think that Mimic Daravon is overpowering despite Oracle's Sleep sucking quite hard in most instances by contrast simply because Mimic Daravon is instant (and, again, unavoidable); of course, it also doesn't help Sleep that it's in the same skill set as the cheaper, faster and more-beneficial-to-magic(k)-using-teams spell that is Paralyze.

But, yeah, if it's possible to make Berserk have finite CT, then I'd rather try that for 1.39. If it doesn't work to curb the problem, then Insult and Berserk status as a whole probably need to be done away with as a whole in ARENA like how Confuse eventually was.

[CT5Holy]

Thoughts on Life Song and Wiznaibus:

What if we combine Life Song and Nameless Song? So it'd be like HP Heal MA+20, 10-15% chance of adding Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Reflect? Or maybe not all of those buffs, but you guys get the idea.

As for Wiznaibus, what about remaking it completely? I don't have any ideas atm, but the HP damage isn't significant enough, and I'm not sure if the Poison proc alone is enough to make it more usable. 2x Wiznaibus Dancers with almost max PA gear + 2x Mimes = 190 damage per round of Wiznaibus, but units with Auto Potion are more or less immune to Wiznaibus, and AP is quite prevalent. I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too narrowly about the uses of Wiznaibus. Even if you wanted the game to go really long so Wiznaibus goes off a lot, wouldn't it be better to have one of the stat reducing dances instead? Is the random bits of damage and Poison Wiznaibus adds actually worth it? Does it do enough? I'm not sure, hence the proposal of changing it.
What if we upped Wiznaibus' damage, but made it not persist, like what happened to Lore? Make it something like 50+PA damage? Except this actually makes 2x Wiznaibus Dancers + 2x Mimes ridiculous - 400 damage per round of Wiznaibus. So let's not do that. (Granted, you're probably getting 2 Wiznaibuses off per turn, so the current 2x Wiznaibus + 2x Mime does 380 damage per turn, but it's spread out, so it gives the other team a chance to recover/drop some units -> survive next wave.)
Hmm, what if this new dance messes with Brave or Faith? Just throwing ideas out there.

[Dokurider]

 In order for Wiznaibus to justify it's existence, it must answer the following question: What can Wiznaibus do that Lore can't? Even Lore's problems of running into a team that absorbs the element being used is nothing compared to Wiznaibus' problem of not only being rendered moot by Auto Potion, but it also painlessly feeds PA/MA/Speed Save users, triggers Dragon Spirit/Chrono Trigger and might even trigger HP Restore. While Lore also has these problems, Lore deals more damage per instance which helps negate this problem and heals allies anyways, while Wiznaibus' DPS model only exacerbates Save Reactors. If Wiznaibus is to be buffed, it's damage output cannot increase, not significantly, because in addition to the problems CT5Holy pointed out, it would be a folly anyways because that's just trying to compete with Lore, a battle it can never win.

My solution would be to make it add only Poison (at 66%?), dealing no damage. It would be very useful because not only does it basically do the same thing, but the AI reacts to it like a bug crawling up it's figurative arm, causing them to drop everything they are doing and try to heal it over and over again, wasting turns. Look at what Kiyomori does to Nursing teams; it's an anti-AI move.

As for combining Life Song and Nameless Song, I don't oppose it. It might even work out just fine. God knows I'd like to see another song used other than Magic/Battle Song.